PDA

View Full Version : Opinion: East Timor should be moved to "Oceanian" subforum



Tomenable
04-06-2021, 02:05 PM
The people of East Timor are Oceanians in terms of autosomal genetics, they are not closely related to Southeastern Asians.

I can post some examples of calculator results.

pmokeefe
04-06-2021, 05:15 PM
Lack of gene–language correlation due to reciprocal female but directional male admixture in Austronesians and non-Austronesians of East Timor (https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2016101)
Abstract
Nusa Tenggara, including East Timor, located at the crossroad between Island Southeast Asia, Near Oceania, and Australia, are characterized by a complex cultural structure harbouring speakers from two different major linguistic groups of different geographic origins (Austronesian (AN) and non-Austronesian (NAN)). This provides suitable possibilities to study gene–language relationship; however, previous studies from other parts of Nusa Tenggara reported conflicting evidence about gene–language correlation in this region. Aiming to investigate gene–language relationships including sex-mediated aspects in East Timor, we analysed the paternally inherited non-recombining part of the Y chromosome (NRY) and the maternally inherited mitochondrial (mt) DNA in a representative collection of AN- and NAN-speaking groups. Y-SNP (single-nucleotide polymorphism) data were newly generated for 273 samples and combined with previously established Y-STR (short tandem repeat) data of the same samples, and with previously established mtDNA data of 290 different samples with, however, very similar representation of geographic and linguistic coverage of the country. We found NRY and mtDNA haplogroups of previously described putative East/Southeast Asian (E/SEA) and Near Oceanian (NO) origins in both AN and NAN speakers of East Timor, albeit in different proportions, suggesting reciprocal genetic admixture between both linguistic groups for females, but directional admixture for males. Our data underline the dual genetic origin of East Timorese in E/SEA and NO, and highlight that substantial genetic admixture between the two major linguistic groups had occurred, more so via women than men. Our study therefore provides another example where languages and genes do not conform due to sex-biased genetic admixture across major linguistic groups.

However that paper doesn't use autosomal DNA.

passenger
04-06-2021, 05:25 PM
The people of East Timor are Oceanians in terms of autosomal genetics, they are not closely related to Southeastern Asians.

I can post some examples of calculator results.

It's an interesting topic, but I don't think it should have any bearing on our subforum divisions. Those divisions are largely generic/cultural and don't follow a strictly genetic logic. In political geography, East Timor is most often classified as an Asian country, though I have occasionally seen it placed in Oceania. In terms of physical geography, it's located on the Eurasian plate, not the Australian or Pacific plates. Linguistically speaking, East Timor hosts both Austronesian and Papuan languages.

witness
07-11-2021, 07:58 PM
It's an interesting topic, but I don't think it should have any bearing on our subforum divisions. Those divisions are largely generic/cultural and don't follow a strictly genetic logic. In political geography, East Timor is most often classified as an Asian country, though I have occasionally seen it placed in Oceania. In terms of physical geography, it's located on the Eurasian plate, not the Australian or Pacific plates. Linguistically speaking, East Timor hosts both Austronesian and Papuan languages.

Not sure about that.I know the neighboring and related Islands of Maluku and West Papua but specifically Maluku is located on the Wallacean region characterized by species that are a mix of both Australian and Asian plates,as well as species endemic to only the region.I believe Timor is the same.During the Paleolithic Papua was connected to Australia as a land called Sahul,while Java,Sumatra,and Borneo connected to mainland SE Asia as Sunda.The Islands of most of Wallacea such as Maluku and Timor were never connected to either and islands of our own since time immemorial.

So geopolitically,East Timor as well as Nusa Tengarra,Maluku,and West Papua are part of Southeast Asia while Genetically,culturally,and even Zoologically a mixture of Oceania and Southeast Asia.But genetically and culturally,Wallacea and Papua is the redheaded isolated and impoverished Stepchild of Southeast Asia that sticks out like a sore thumb and usually been marginilized even to this day.

witness
07-11-2021, 08:18 PM
Vietnam is often considered as much if not closer to East Asia as it is to SE Asia.Always had heavy and close ties to China than it has to say Thailand or Cambodia.

Eastern Indonesia and Timor Leste can be considered like the this but instead of East Asia its Oceania we have heavy ties to.The most Oceania parts of our distinct region is definitely West Papua,but also the Highlands of East Timor,Seram,and the islands of Southeast Maluku like Kei and Aru who are also closest to Papua and Australia.Kei and Aru actually were connected to Sahul during the Ice Age,I think Timor may have.Timor and East Nusa Tengarra is the only island in the whole Indo Pacific to be mostly Desert and Savannah like Australia rather than the Tropical Rainforest Biome like the rest of their neighbors as well.

passenger
07-11-2021, 08:18 PM
Not sure about that.I know the neighboring and related Islands of Maluku and West Papua but specifically Maluku is located on the Wallacean region characterized by species that are a mix of both Australian and Asian plates,as well as species endemic to only the region.I believe Timor is the same.During the Paleolithic Papua was connected to Australia as a land called Sahul,while Java,Sumatra,and Borneo connected to mainland SE Asia as Sunda.The Islands of most of Wallacea such as Maluku and Timor were never connected to either and islands of our own since time immemorial.

So geopolitically,East Timor as well as Nusa Tengarra,Maluku,and West Papua are part of Southeast Asia while Genetically, culturally, and even Zoologically a mixture of Oceania and Southeast Asia.But genetically and culturally,Wallacea and Papua is the redheaded isolated and impoverished Redhead Stepchild of Southeast Asia that sticks out like a sore thumb and usually been marginilized even to this day.

Thanks for the info. Yes, I think the information I had on the tectonic plates was outdated. And that genetic, cultural and zoological characterization certainly adds some nuance. Still, we have to draw the line somewhere, and since the most commonly accepted geopolitical models place East Timor in Asia, I think that's what we have to go with. If we follow any other type of logic - genetic, cultural, zoological, etc. - we'll never be able to agree on any regional or continental boundaries since they've mostly been set by convention.

witness
07-11-2021, 08:43 PM
Thanks for the info. Yes, I think the information I had on the tectonic plates was outdated. And that genetic, cultural and zoological characterization certainly adds some nuance. Still, we have to draw the line somewhere, and since the most commonly accepted geopolitical models place East Timor in Asia, I think that's what we have to go with. If we follow any other type of logic - genetic, cultural, zoological, etc. - we'll never be able to agree on any regional or continental boundaries since they've mostly been set by convention.

I disagree.Especially the locals on the ground especially in Maluku and West Papua,but also Timor too still identify closer with Oceania culturally.Line drawing is not something us Indigineous do.This region even had the Ternate Kingdom that spoke Papuan languages written in Arabic scripts.Nearby Raja Ampat are Muslim Indigineous Papuans.With all due respect,I think us local Indigineous should have the last say in who we are and where we belong,not Foreigners.And I actually have been to Ambon,Maluku to know on the ground they still retain a strongly distinct Ethnic identity just like West Papua.One that is strongly tied to Oceania,specifically Melanesia.

passenger
07-11-2021, 09:07 PM
I disagree.Especially the locals on the ground especially in Maluku and West Papua,but also Timor too still identify closer with Oceania culturally.Line drawing is not something us Indigineous do.This region even had the Ternate Kingdom that spoke Papuan languages written in Arabic scripts.Nearby Raja Ampat are Muslim Indigineous Papuans.With all due respect,I think us local Indigineous should have the last say in who we are and where we belong,not Foreigners.And I actually have been to Ambon,Maluku to know on the ground they still retain a strontly distinct Ethnic identity just like West Papua.One that is strongly tied to Oceania,specifically Melanesia.

I think you've misunderstood my point. I'm referring back to the original topic of this thread which is regarding the regional subdivisions as we employ them in this forum. I'm not stating that strong claims couldn't be made for including East Timor within one region or another based on any of the criteria you've mentioned. Of course you could make such arguments. The point is that for the purposes of this forum we have to use the nomenclature that is the most internationally recognized, and that is the geopolitical definition. You can never satisfy everyone. Even in terms of classifying continents, there are different conventions employed in different linguistic traditions. For instance, in English we generally use the 7 continent model splitting North America and South America into separate continents and we include Central America and the Caribbean as sub-regions of North America. In Spanish and Portuguese-speaking countries, however, they generally teach that America is one united continent, and "North America" is more often thought of as a cultural region limited to the U.S. and Canada, rather than as a physical geographic region.

You are free to continue discussing the finer points of the classification regarding East Timor as you see fit, I have no argument with you. My point is a broader one. If we stopped to consider all the different ways that we could possibly subdivide the world into regions taking into account different political, cultural, geological etc. perspectives, we could be here forever just trying to give appropriate names to our sub-forums.

witness
07-11-2021, 09:20 PM
The people of East Timor are Oceanians in terms of autosomal genetics, they are not closely related to Southeastern Asians.

I can post some examples of calculator results.

Back to the main point,Timorese are the same people as us Moluccans.We are a mixture of Austronesians and Melanesians.Our mix is pretty much the same as the Micronesians,Polynesians,but especially the other Coastal Melanesians of Papua as well as some Tribals of neighboring Mindanao like the Mamanwa and Manobo.

witness
07-11-2021, 09:27 PM
The people of East Timor are Oceanians in terms of autosomal genetics, they are not closely related to Southeastern Asians.

I can post some examples of calculator results.

These two images may be of interest to you.The first picture is the opinion of a renowned Geneticist.

https://ibb.co/1qLC7c2
https://ibb.co/0yrmZT1

And here is a relevant Youtube video explaining abit more of the complexities of our region

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvWDO4QSMuQ&t=4s

Genetics and linguistics point to "Wallacea" being possibly Pivotal to the Austronesian expansion to Oceania as well as ancient Australoid migrations into Sahul.

Tomenable
07-19-2021, 05:44 PM
These two images may be of interest to you.The first picture is the opinion of a renowned Geneticist.

https://ibb.co/1qLC7c2
https://ibb.co/0yrmZT1

And here is a relevant Youtube video explaining abit more of the complexities of our region

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvWDO4QSMuQ&t=4s

Genetics and linguistics point to "Wallacea" being possibly Pivotal to the Austronesian expansion to Oceania as well as ancient Australoid migrations into Sahul.

Thank you, very interesting!