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kyp.snow
04-11-2021, 12:09 PM
So a relative of our tribe (same sub-branch) did a test and turned out to be under this specific clade:

https://i.imgur.com/KrSzlsc.jpg


Any help on how this clade could have made it's way to Iran is appreciated.

kyp.snow
04-11-2021, 04:28 PM
https://www.yfull.com/tree/N-L1034/

DMXX
04-13-2021, 12:44 AM
Y-DNA N has appeared several times in our current aDNA in relation to the Xiongnu and Avars, and later in Medieval Yakuts. However, they weren't genotyped for L1034, as far as I'm aware.

N was also found in several remains from the Xiongnu period (Keyser et al. 2020) that were identified as early Turks.

L1034 was specifically found in an Aldy-Bel sample (IA Scythian from around the Altai region). I'm not aware of any other Scythian samples with that subclade (but I'm a good year out of the loop with steppe Y-DNA).

Y-DNA N (entire subclade) has not been found (yet?) in any of the Medieval Turkic samples (Kharakhanid, Karluk etc.) from West-Central Asia.

With respect to modern populations, I refer to:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25258186/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/N-L1034/
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/n-1c-1/about/background

So, N-L1034 is irregularly spread across Eurasia, with a specific appearance in European Ugric speakers (but not in the Finnic branch), alongside various Turkic-speaking populations (Bashkir, Uzbek, Tatar, Yakut, Turkish from Turkey). This actually coincides somewhat nicely with the linguistic data concerning the Turkic-originating vocabulary in Modern Hungarian.

An attribution to one of the Turkic-speaking/originating migrations after Tuğril bey's ascent is the most parsimonious explanation - Attributing it to a particular movement (f.ex. Turkoman settlers following the Seljuk dynasty's establishment) or tribe doesn't seem feasible (the paucity in data speaks against such assertions).

A Scythian argument doesn't seem particularly sensible for self-apparent reasons.

Farroukh
04-13-2021, 02:17 AM
N haplogroup is typical for Afshar/Shahsevan people of Northern Iran.

DMXX
04-13-2021, 02:19 AM
N haplogroup is typical for Afshar/Shahsevan people of Northern Iran.

Is this particular subclade specific to them, or do they exhibit a variety of subclades?

Farroukh
04-13-2021, 03:59 AM
Yes, sure, they are bearers of several N-subclades.

Kyp.snow, are you tested at FTDNA?

digital_noise
04-13-2021, 06:15 AM
One of my daughters Iranian matches Y-DNA is O-F8... I found this odd, but admittedly I know very little about Iranian Y lines

kyp.snow
04-13-2021, 06:58 AM
Y-DNA N has appeared several times in our current aDNA in relation to the Xiongnu and Avars, and later in Medieval Yakuts. However, they weren't genotyped for L1034, as far as I'm aware.

N was also found in several remains from the Xiongnu period (Keyser et al. 2020) that were identified as early Turks.

L1034 was specifically found in an Aldy-Bel sample (IA Scythian from around the Altai region). I'm not aware of any other Scythian samples with that subclade (but I'm a good year out of the loop with steppe Y-DNA).

Y-DNA N (entire subclade) has not been found (yet?) in any of the Medieval Turkic samples (Kharakhanid, Karluk etc.) from West-Central Asia.

With respect to modern populations, I refer to:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25258186/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/N-L1034/
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/n-1c-1/about/background

So, N-L1034 is irregularly spread across Eurasia, with a specific appearance in European Ugric speakers (but not in the Finnic branch), alongside various Turkic-speaking populations (Bashkir, Uzbek, Tatar, Yakut, Turkish from Turkey). This actually coincides somewhat nicely with the linguistic data concerning the Turkic-originating vocabulary in Modern Hungarian.

An attribution to one of the Turkic-speaking/originating migrations after Tuğril bey's ascent is the most parsimonious explanation - Attributing it to a particular movement (f.ex. Turkoman settlers following the Seljuk dynasty's establishment) or tribe doesn't seem feasible (the paucity in data speaks against such assertions).

A Scythian argument doesn't seem particularly sensible for self-apparent reasons.

Thanks for the great answer!


N haplogroup is typical for Afshar/Shahsevan people of Northern Iran.

Are you sure? I'm not aware of any other Afshar and Shahsevans from Iran being tested.

Our family is Afshar too btw (from Zanjan Province).


Yes, sure, they are bearers of several N-subclades.

Kyp.snow, are you tested at FTDNA?

No i'm not tested at ftdna.

Farroukh
04-13-2021, 07:25 AM
Are you sure? I'm not aware of any other Afshar and Shahsevans from Iran being tested.
There are some persons from Azerbaijan.

kyp.snow
04-13-2021, 07:54 AM
One of my daughters Iranian matches Y-DNA is O-F8... I found this odd, but admittedly I know very little about Iranian Y lines

This Y-DNA also seems to have been found in Azerbaijan DNA Project quite a few times. Probably some Ilkhanid or Timurid legacy!

Farroukh
04-13-2021, 10:42 AM
Zulqadar (Dulkadir) tribe from Yevlakh district.

kyp.snow
04-13-2021, 11:51 AM
Zulqadar (Dulkadir) tribe from Yevlakh district.

relation to Dulkadirs could makes sense being Afshar

DMXX
04-13-2021, 09:08 PM
This Y-DNA also seems to have been found in Azerbaijan DNA Project quite a few times. Probably some Ilkhanid or Timurid legacy!

As "long shot" considerations, we may also include Han Chinese merchants (Silk Road), the Khazars (they'd encroached on the borders of historical Azerbaijan; also, Y-DNA O may be found in some modern N. Caucasian groups) and the Tang dynasty (though the furthest west any of their protectorates were in Afghanistan, the Ghaznavids came afterwards, and I seem to recall that some of the western Ghaznavid garrisons were incorporated into the Seljuk empire after their defeat in N. Afghanistan-S. Turkmenistan).

There's also the possibility that some variants of Y-DNA O may have been present during a formative stage of Turkish ethnogenesis (for convenience, let us define that period as anytime between the IA to the formation of the first Gökturk empire).
This proposal has been actively considered on various fora since around 2008 at least (Where various subclades of Y-DNA's O, C, N and Q were perceived to define the "East Eurasian" component of the early Turks).
Although none of the Medieval W-C Asian Turkish results show Y-DNA O, we do have a single Gökturk sample (per Alkaevli's excellent-as-per-usual work (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15701-Hunnic-and-Medieval-Turkic-samples-Y-DNA-and-Autosomal-DNA)).

The presence of Y-DNA O among West Asian Turkic speakers (or populations in close proximity to them, such as Persians, Armenians etc.) may be attributed to any of the following (in chronological order):
- Han Chinese merchants (Silk Road mediation; among the least likely IMO)
- Khazar infiltration (also among the least likely)
- Seljuk-related (i.e. already present among the "core Turkish package" of uniparentals; may be traced to a particular tribe in the future; may represent a later dynastic line)
- Seljuk-related (vectored in via the Tang dynasty->Ghaznavid connection)
- Ilkhanid (i.e. Medieval Turko-Mongol*)
- Timurid (i.e. Medieval Turko-Mongol)

Subclade-specific breakdowns would be most useful, here.

* Reminder - Following the fall of the Turkic Khwarezmian dynasty to Genghis, many of the Turkic soldiers there surrendered to the Mongols. We can assume many of the competent soldiers were recruited into the Mongol army, per Genghis' attested tendency towards meritocratic thinking. We have confirmation of Turkic soldiers in several campaigns led by the Ilkhanate, most notably in Hulagu's seige of Baghdad. Although not typically described as "Turko-Mongol", the context of this discussion does permit it, IMO.

Ilgar
07-24-2021, 09:45 AM
I would exclude "Han Chinese merchant origin" version of O haplos among azerbaijani turks considering its percentage being little less than percentage of haplogroup N among turkic azerbaijanis.
Although there were way more popular destinations of the great silk road than Azerbaijan like Anatolia, Arabian peninsula, Southern Europe etc. the percentage of haplogroup O in those regions right now is close to 0. So from my point of view the most likely variant is Turco-Mongols.
I would also exlude Seljuks as well, cause we have not seen any O haplo from Giresun, Muğla or any region of Anatolia which have high percentage of central asian turkic admixture as well as Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups.