PDA

View Full Version : Uploaded 23andme v5 to GEDMATCH & to MyHeritage - totally different MH matches in GM!



Rufus191
04-12-2021, 10:26 AM
Hi guys, I made a post on this on the 23andme forum, but I thought it might be worth posting here to see if other MyHeritage users have noticed similar anomalies. Basically, I uploaded the 23andme v5 (tested September, 2020), to GEDMATCH, and later to MyHeritage when they had their free tools offer a few weeks ago. The problem is, the vast majority of matches that are marked MyHeritage on GEDMATCH, do not appear on the same 23andme v5 upload to MyHeritage! If I order GEDMATCH by segment size, some of the matches (very few) with larger segments i.e. above 16cM do show up on MyHeritage, but it seems most below that do not (I have not checked them all obviously).
It also seems notable that the MyHeritage matches on GEDMATCH, I can say, were surprising to me, as they seemed to have sign of Volga German links, with many Russians, a few Czechs, Georgians, Polish, and significant number of German and Brazilian/Argentinian matches which were places where Volga Germans were known to settle. So, is there something peculiar about Volga German's DNA, in that they are perhaps particularly endogamous, like Quebecois, and descend from a relatively small number of settlers whose descendants constantly remarried? So maybe MyHeritage, knows this and is filtering these matches out in a similar way to Ancestry's Timber algorithm? But GEDMATCH does not do this?

Rufus191
04-12-2021, 10:37 AM
Just to add, that these unexpected matches on GEDMATCH, with signs of Volga German links, also appear from FamilyTreeDNA/FTDNA, which is maybe not surprising as I think MyHeritage and FTDNA used the same chip?

Rufus191
04-12-2021, 05:57 PM
I realized I did not state what kind of size matches I am seeing - the highest 'unexpected' MyHeritage match on GEDMATCH I get is 40cM, a Russian, then there is a steady stream of unexpected matches below this with clearly Russian names or Volga German GED trees. None of these appear with the same upload on MyHeritage.

Riverman
04-12-2021, 07:43 PM
I basically have the same kind of problem with all Kits I'm using on all platforms. There is only a limited amount of overlap in all these cases and to decide which match is real, which platform is better in selecting right from wrong is a big issue.
So far I couldn’t identify any rule or principle other than Ancestry giving good matches most of the time but also missing a lot. With the others its just gambling, especially with My Heritage.

td120
04-12-2021, 08:36 PM
I deleted my account on Gedmatch and am talking by memory here but if one did one-to-one comparison one could see how many snps are used in the comparison on the particular cousin (what the overlap is). MH may have used different chips through the years and the genetic distance may look reasonably good at first ...but be in fact rather "weak".
As for the Volga Germans - the Wiki articles state that they were initially around 27-30K people (mostly Lutheran) ,mostly from Hesse and the Palatinate and Württemberg. Around 1914 the number of Volga Germans will be over 600K(I do not know about if there were any consequent waves of settlers and the articles leave the impression that they're all descendants of the original XVIII c. settlers). Interdenominational marriages (remaining in the group) would have been very rare exceptions up to the Revolution I'd guess... Attempting to convert an Orthodox to Protestantism or Catholicism was forbidden by law. They were allowed to proselytize among non-Orthodox populations though.

https://sites.ualberta.ca/~german/AlbertaHistory/Volgagermans.htm

Rufus191
04-12-2021, 08:56 PM
I basically have the same kind of problem with all Kits I'm using on all platforms. There is only a limited amount of overlap in all these cases and to decide which match is real, which platform is better in selecting right from wrong is a big issue.
So far I couldn’t identify any rule or principle other than Ancestry giving good matches most of the time but also missing a lot. With the others its just gambling, especially with My Heritage.
Yes it seems the 23andme v5 chip is very dissimilar to the chip which MyHeritage/FTDNA use, I don't know if that could be the cause of these unexpected matches

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPtsX_IMF5k Family History Fanatics video on GEDMATCH overlap
https://youtu.be/wPtsX_IMF5k?t=561 table that shows the % in relation to the SNPs that GEDMATCH looks at

The weird thing is though, that both FTDNA/MyHeritage show very high overlap on GEDMATCH with this 23andme v5 kit, about 240,000, whereas the overlap to Ancestry accounts is only about 45,000-50,000. That doesn't seem to tie in with what is suggested in that FamilyHistoryFanatics video at all. Something is not right somewhere!

Rufus191
04-12-2021, 09:10 PM
I deleted my account on Gedmatch and am talking by memory here but if one did one-to-one comparison one could see how many snps are used in the comparison on the particular cousin (what the overlap is). MH may have used different chips through the years and the genetic distance may look reasonably good at first ...but be in fact rather "weak".
The overlap is now shown on the GEDMATCH One to many Beta matching page - as I said above, that is the odd thing about this 23andme v5 upload vs these MyHeritage/FTDNA kits, it shows very high overlap, about 240,000 which is not what I have seen mentioned elsewhere:confused:.



As for the Volga Germans - the Wiki articles state that they were initially around 27-30K people (mostly Lutheran) ,mostly from Hesse and the Palatinate and Württemberg. Around 1914 the number of Volga Germans will be over 600K(I do not know about if there were any consequent waves of settlers and the articles leave the impression that they're all descendants of the original XVIII c. settlers). Interdenominational marriages (remaining in the group) would have been very rare exceptions up to the Revolution I'd guess... Attempting to convert an Orthodox to Protestantism or Catholicism was forbidden by law. They were allowed to proselytize among non-Orthodox populations though.

https://sites.ualberta.ca/~german/AlbertaHistory/Volgagermans.htm
Thanks, I have previously found this site which is very comprehensive. It states there were also many Catholic Volga Germans, 30% of the original settlers being Catholic, and also reformed or Calvinist, by 1910, there were 70,000 in the Volga region but that they formed, in general, separate colonies. Interesting your comment about converting from Orthodox being forbidden, I did not know that. But I guess the other way round was permitted, and quite a few Volga German girls married Russian Orthodox men and converted.

https://www.volgagermans.org/
https://www.volgagermans.org/culture/religion

After Russia removed the protection from compulsory military service for Volga Germans in 1874, many started to emigrate, and many of the Catholics went to Brazil and Argentina

https://www.volgagermans.org/who-are-volga-germans/history/immigration

So that would explain the Brazilian/Argentinian matches I see, but...are they real matches:noidea:?

Riverman
04-12-2021, 11:43 PM
I did some tests with different uploads and My Heritage basically produces most of the time a quite similar to the same result if its really the same upload, especially if its the same upload or test of both parties. So not just of yourself, but your match also. Like I got vastly different results with 23andme vs. FTDNA, but the same (not down to the exact SNP though) with an Ancestry : Ancestry (new version) comparison.

td120
04-13-2021, 12:50 AM
Some more stats:
https://isogg.org/wiki/Autosomal_SNP_comparison_chart

http://www.beholdgenealogy.com/blog/?p=2700


Family Tree DNA and MyHeritage DNA provide identical autosomal SNPs. They share about 44% with AncestryDNA. 23andMe and Living DNA who both use the v5 chip share over 90% with each other, but only about 14% with the other companies. Only 110,231 autosomal SNPs were included in my raw data by all five companies.

Those low overlap percentages are what makes it difficult to find matching segments between data from the v5 chip and data from the old chip. Some companies like Family Tree DNA do not yet accept transfers of raw data from 23andMe or Living DNA because of that. MyHeritage DNA uses imputation to estimate the missing SNPs. GEDmatch is still working to develop a more reliable method to compare v5 chip data with earlier data through it’s GEDmatch Genesis project.


Interesting your comment about converting from Orthodox being forbidden, I did not know that. But I guess the other way round was permitted, and quite a few Volga German girls married Russian Orthodox men and converted.

Most probably.

Here is some more about the past and present situation:

https://ru.mdz-moskau.eu/%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BC%D1%86%D1%8B-%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%82%D 1%8B/

Until the end of the 20th century, Orthodoxy had almost no followers among Russian Germans. In most cases, it was embraced to advance through the ranks or as a result of marrying Russians.

The most common among Russian Germans were Protestantism and Catholicism. In the 18th century, about 2/3 of the German colonists were Lutherans or Reformed Protestant by religion, the rest were Catholics. The confessional composition in the 19th century changed insignificantly. Thus, in the first half of the century, the Mennonite and Herngut missionaries enjoyed success among the Germans. And in the second half of the 19th century, Protestant denominations spread widely in the German colonies - Baptism, Stundism, Betbruder, Seventh-day Adventists , Mennonites . However, their total number was just over 1% of the total number of all Russian Germans.

According to the materials of the first All-Russian census of 1897, 76% of the Germans in Russia were Lutherans, 14% were Catholics, and 4% were Mennonites and Reformed. Orthodox Germans were less than 1%.

The anti-religious campaigns of the Soviet government led to the cessation of the official activity of all religious denominations in the USSR by the end of the 1930s.

Since the early 1990s, traditional religious confessions have begun to revive in Russia. However, it was at this time that the mass adoption of Orthodoxy by Russian Germans began. This became a part of the assimilation process and a consequence of mixed marriages. The departure of the Germans from the traditional German confessions was influenced by the interruption of religious tradition and the connection between generations, as well as the public activity of the Orthodox Church, its construction of temples. Psychologically inclined to convert to religious belief, Russian Germans-in the absence of Lutheran and Catholic communities-increasingly became followers of the Russian Orthodox Church.

Russian Germans that have emigrated to Germany by religious denomination (y.2018):

https://ru.mdz-moskau.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Graphic-from-MDZ_495_08-768x693.jpg




On the Latin American matches - yes, they might be as real as the Volga Russian (and their descendants of course). I too have some Latin American matches with ancestry from Central Europe (Slavs) or the Balkans.

Riverman
04-13-2021, 09:01 AM
On the Latin American matches - yes, they might be as real as the Volga Russian (and their descendants of course). I too have some Latin American matches with ancestry from Central Europe (Slavs) or the Balkans.

If the Russian German matches are real, you likely get Western German matches and some from the USA, but also Canada, Denmark, Hungary and Poland too. Because the same settlers came from Western Germany and moved to all these places. That's why some Western Germans without such ancestry even get Russian German or Colonial American groups sometimes, because individually they can be still very close to those relatives which emigrated, so they end up in the same cluster. All this happened in the genealogy relevant time frame, its not that long ago.

Rufus191
04-13-2021, 05:02 PM
Some more stats:
https://isogg.org/wiki/Autosomal_SNP_comparison_chart

http://www.beholdgenealogy.com/blog/?p=2700

Thanks, that is what I thought. I just logged in again, and these FTDNA & MyHeritage kits are actually showing 270,000 overlap to the 23andme v5 kit?! Can this be explained by anything other than 23andme having recently completely changed the chip they use?! I would be interested if anyone who recently uploaded a recently done 23andme kit has similar data.:eek:



Most probably.

Here is some more about the past and present situation:

https://ru.mdz-moskau.eu/%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BC%D1%86%D1%8B-%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%82%D 1%8B/

Until the end of the 20th century, Orthodoxy had almost no followers among Russian Germans. In most cases, it was embraced to advance through the ranks or as a result of marrying Russians.

The most common among Russian Germans were Protestantism and Catholicism. In the 18th century, about 2/3 of the German colonists were Lutherans or Reformed Protestant by religion, the rest were Catholics. The confessional composition in the 19th century changed insignificantly. Thus, in the first half of the century, the Mennonite and Herngut missionaries enjoyed success among the Germans. And in the second half of the 19th century, Protestant denominations spread widely in the German colonies - Baptism, Stundism, Betbruder, Seventh-day Adventists , Mennonites . However, their total number was just over 1% of the total number of all Russian Germans.

According to the materials of the first All-Russian census of 1897, 76% of the Germans in Russia were Lutherans, 14% were Catholics, and 4% were Mennonites and Reformed. Orthodox Germans were less than 1%.

The anti-religious campaigns of the Soviet government led to the cessation of the official activity of all religious denominations in the USSR by the end of the 1930s.

Since the early 1990s, traditional religious confessions have begun to revive in Russia. However, it was at this time that the mass adoption of Orthodoxy by Russian Germans began. This became a part of the assimilation process and a consequence of mixed marriages. The departure of the Germans from the traditional German confessions was influenced by the interruption of religious tradition and the connection between generations, as well as the public activity of the Orthodox Church, its construction of temples. Psychologically inclined to convert to religious belief, Russian Germans-in the absence of Lutheran and Catholic communities-increasingly became followers of the Russian Orthodox Church.

Russian Germans that have emigrated to Germany by religious denomination (y.2018):

https://ru.mdz-moskau.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Graphic-from-MDZ_495_08-768x693.jpg




On the Latin American matches - yes, they might be as real as the Volga Russian (and their descendants of course). I too have some Latin American matches with ancestry from Central Europe (Slavs) or the Balkans.
Thanks for this Russians in Germany newspaper link - very interesting! I browsed quite few articles, translated obviously:). I guess it makes sense that many have now adopted Orthodox religion, after their own ancestral Protestantism or Catholicism would have been suppressed during Communist times, and now many Volga Germans are moving to areas that are majority Russian Orthodox like Moscow, St. Petersburg etc.

Rufus191
04-13-2021, 05:09 PM
If the Russian German matches are real, you likely get Western German matches and some from the USA, but also Canada, Denmark, Hungary and Poland too. Because the same settlers came from Western Germany and moved to all these places. That's why some Western Germans without such ancestry even get Russian German or Colonial American groups sometimes, because individually they can be still very close to those relatives which emigrated, so they end up in the same cluster. All this happened in the genealogy relevant time frame, its not that long ago.
Yes I have a few in Germany, one with an obviously German name and German named ancestors has a tree with all Germans in Russia, but I don't know where they live now. There are several Czech, Poles, a few Georgians and one Turkish lady above 30cM. But like I said, a lot of those are largest segment 9-10cM, but some are 12-13 and there is one 16. I have now signed up to the GEDMATCH Tier 1, and with Q Matching I can see some share overlapping segments, some starting or ending at identical points, the most common areas in common are on chromosomes 19 & 22. But I still don't get why none of these show up on MyHeritage if they are real. Maybe something caused by 23andme changing the chip?

Riverman
04-13-2021, 05:21 PM
Yes I have a few in Germany, one with an obviously German name and German named ancestors has a tree with all Germans in Russia, but I don't know where they live now. There are several Czech, Poles, a few Georgians and one Turkish lady above 30cM. But like I said, a lot of those are largest segment 9-10cM, but some are 12-13 and there is one 16. I have now signed up to the GEDMATCH Tier 1, and with Q Matching I can see some share overlapping segments, some starting or ending at identical points, the most common areas in common are on chromosomes 19 & 22. But I still don't get why none of these show up on MyHeritage if they are real. Maybe something caused by 23andme changing the chip?

Every chip version and every company version produces different results. Gedmatch is usually more reliable overall.

Mixed
04-13-2021, 08:33 PM
Every chip version and every company version produces different results. Gedmatch is usually more reliable overall.

I would say part of it is all these companies test different SNPs. Some test the same ones but not all specifically.

Riverman
04-13-2021, 11:28 PM
I would say part of it is all these companies test different SNPs. Some test the same ones but not all specifically.

Yes, that is the main, but not the only reason. Even the same raw data produces just slightly, even if just slightly, different results on the different platforms quite often. Its the way the positions being calculated too, even if that's secondary.

randalgibbs
04-14-2021, 12:19 AM
Yes it seems the 23andme v5 chip is very dissimilar to the chip which MyHeritage/FTDNA use, I don't know if that could be the cause of these unexpected matches

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPtsX_IMF5k Family History Fanatics video on GEDMATCH overlap
https://youtu.be/wPtsX_IMF5k?t=561 table that shows the % in relation to the SNPs that GEDMATCH looks at

The weird thing is though, that both FTDNA/MyHeritage show very high overlap on GEDMATCH with this 23andme v5 kit, about 240,000, whereas the overlap to Ancestry accounts is only about 45,000-50,000. That doesn't seem to tie in with what is suggested in that FamilyHistoryFanatics video at all. Something is not right somewhere!

FTDNA, My Heritage and 23andMe are all now using the Illumina GSA (Global screening Array) chip, so there is a high overlap of tested SNPs between the current tests at these companies. 23andMe began using the GSA chip in late 2017, FTDNA and MyHeritage switched from the OmniExpress chip to the GSA chip in 2019. LivingDNA used the GSA chip previously but have now switched to a chip from Affymetrix. Overlap between tests is not only a function of which company the test is from, but when the test was done as the companies have all changed chips over time.

Rufus191
04-14-2021, 08:32 AM
FTDNA, My Heritage and 23andMe are all now using the Illumina GSA (Global screening Array) chip, so there is a high overlap of tested SNPs between the current tests at these companies. 23andMe began using the GSA chip in late 2017, FTDNA and MyHeritage switched from the OmniExpress chip to the GSA chip in 2019. LivingDNA used the GSA chip previously but have now switched to a chip from Affymetrix. Overlap between tests is not only a function of which company the test is from, but when the test was done as the companies have all changed chips over time.
Ah, I guess this could be it! Thanks:)! Not many people have realized this it seems. The FTDNA kits get an overlap of around 280,000 to this recent 23andme kit on GEDMATCH, and to the MyHeritage labelled kits, it's similar around 278,000. I think that all the kits labelled MyHeritage or FTDNA on GEDMATCH are all less than 2 years old, I think the older MyHeritage chips are possibly labelled Migration - V4 - M which have much smaller overlaps with this 23andme kit of around 45,000, and the older FTDNA chips Migration - F2 - F with about 70,000 overlap. This makes me think these matches are much more likely to be accurate, but yeah it is strange they do not appear on MyHeritage itself.

Dorkymon
04-14-2021, 09:17 AM
I basically have the same kind of problem with all Kits I'm using on all platforms. There is only a limited amount of overlap in all these cases and to decide which match is real, which platform is better in selecting right from wrong is a big issue.
So far I couldn’t identify any rule or principle other than Ancestry giving good matches most of the time but also missing a lot. With the others its just gambling, especially with My Heritage.

I wish there was a filter in MyHeritage to remove the medium and low confidence matches.

Riverman
04-14-2021, 09:53 AM
I wish there was a filter in MyHeritage to remove the medium and low confidence matches.

You can just ignore it, but honestly, these are the main reason why I'm there. I found out some are solid, they triangulate well, they have the right trees, the right regions, they seem to be related even if just distantly. And they can help to locate bigger, higher level matches which are reluctant to communicate. It really helps, even if its quite annoying and time consuming to go through it sometimes. If they would hide them completely, a lot of information would get lost, especially if you try to find something out about more distant ancestors where there is a lack of records.