PDA

View Full Version : Confusion and 67-Marker Test Results -- R1b1a2 (M269)



2Bellies
04-03-2014, 06:26 PM
A few years ago I took the original Geneographic 1.0 test that showed me as R1b M343 and recently upgraded my results with the 67-marker test from Family Tree which showed me as R1b1a2 M269...so far, so good in looking at Western Europe. However, no close matches except a hand full at the 12-marker level which I think is not too relative. So, I tested for L21, U106, and P312...all three returned negative results. I then proceeded to try two predictive programs..one thought I should try L265 or M520 while Jim Cullen's predictive program said I am R1b (E. Europe 72%), S28 (17%), S21 Scottish (less than 1%) plus a couple of others.

Our oral family history (confirmed by another branch separated by 150-170 years in relationship) says we are descended from Scots who settled in Germany in the early-1600s...and the name with only a couple of minor exceptions has always been spelled BLACK. The 67-marker results include a somewhat rare DYS390=26.

Because of the relative lack of matches and the confusion between East and Western European R1B, the question is where do I go from here? What test might resolve my proper haplogroup?

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

smal
04-03-2014, 06:47 PM
We need to see your data to give you advice. Please, give us the number of your sample and the name of the project in which it can be viewed.

Joe B
04-03-2014, 08:11 PM
A few years ago I took the original Geneographic 1.0 test that showed me as R1b M343 and recently upgraded my results with the 67-marker test from Family Tree which showed me as R1b1a2 M269...so far, so good in looking at Western Europe. However, no close matches except a hand full at the 12-marker level which I think is not too relative. So, I tested for L21, U106, and P312...all three returned negative results. I then proceeded to try two predictive programs..one thought I should try L265 or M520 while Jim Cullen's predictive program said I am R1b (E. Europe 72%), S28 (17%), S21 Scottish (less than 1%) plus a couple of others.

Our oral family history (confirmed by another branch separated by 150-170 years in relationship) says we are descended from Scots who settled in Germany in the early-1600s...and the name with only a couple of minor exceptions has always been spelled BLACK. The 67-marker results include a somewhat rare DYS390=26.

Because of the relative lack of matches and the confusion between East and Western European R1B, the question is where do I go from here? What test might resolve my proper haplogroup?

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Hello 2Bellies and welcome to Anthrogenica.
Please share your kit number. smal knows this area of the y-tree very well. DYS390=26 is rather rare so it will be interesting to see it in the context of the other 66 STR alleles.
By definition you meet the criteria for the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (aka ht35 Project) (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new,ht35new,ht35new/default.aspx), please join it.

The goal of the R1b1b2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project is to investigate the history and distribution of the most upstream (or basal) clades of haplogroup R1b1b2. The project is open to anyone tested to be M269+ U106- P312-. You may join our project by clicking this link (https://www.familytreedna.com/group-join-request.aspx?group=ht35).

Rathna
04-03-2014, 08:58 PM
We need to see your data to give you advice. Please, give us the number of your sample and the name of the project in which it can be viewed.

Smal, probably the haplotype is this:

BP7SY Black Biedenkopf (area), Germany
12 26 14 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 24 16 19 32 14 15 16 18 11 12 19 23 15 16 20 17 36 38 12 12 12 12 14 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 11 21 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 21 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
I throw away DYS19b, that probably doesn't exist. Perhaps an R-Z2110, linked with the other ones from the Isles.

2Bellies
04-04-2014, 12:36 AM
Smal, probably the haplotype is this:

BP7SY Black Biedenkopf (area), Germany
12 26 14 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 24 16 19 32 14 15 16 18 11 12 19 23 15 16 20 17 36 38 12 12 12 12 14 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 11 21 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 21 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
I throw away DYS19b, that probably doesn't exist. Perhaps an R-Z2110, linked with the other ones from the Isles.


Yes, that's my data...any comments/suggestions appreciated.

2Bellies
04-04-2014, 01:00 AM
Family Tree DNA kit - 321758 or YSearch = Bp7SY

Tks much to all of you for the help.

Rathna
04-04-2014, 04:53 AM
Yes, that's my data...any comments/suggestions appreciated.

I have already said everything: "Perhaps an R-Z2110, linked with the other ones from the Isles".
What does it mean this?
1) With your series
8 10 10 8 10 11
11 13 11 11 12 12
you belong to the modal of R-Z2110: mine: KV7Y2 (Italy), Nochev (Bulgaria) etc., and I think we are linked within the 4000 years
2) the closest to you seems Hollingsworth, I know well from many years like an R-L23 from the Isles
3) coming from Scotland you belong probably to the L23 of the said "Border Rivers"
4) it will be interesting to know when they reached Scotland and from where, but they come from nearby the Hadrian's Wall, and I have supposed they come, like the other two clusters I'll speak below, from Roman soldiers, we don't know so far from which part of the Empire, but this is what we are trying to know
5) in England we know the two clusters of R-Z2110* (tested), that of Seymour and Ware and that of Locke, in between there is the Italian Romitti. Unfortunately Ware, who received his Big Y like Nochev, doesn't answer my letter asking his novel SNPs to compare with Nochev's and the Kurdish Jew of the paper of Rootsy 2013 about the Levites R1a
6) your haplotype with DYS390=26 and other mutations demonstrates that the R-L23 "Border Rivers" are older and more differentiated than we thought
7) thus every your test will be appreciated and useful for we all, also Chromo2, a little expensive with the only raw data of the Y you should compare with mine. Better the Big Y or YFull.

smal
04-04-2014, 06:22 AM
2Bellies, as Rathna said you most probably belong to the R1b-Z2110 subclade (M269 -> L23 -> Z2103, Z2105 -> Z2110/CTS7822).
To support this hypothesis you could order:
1) Z2103 or Z2105 in FTDNA;
2) Geno2.0 chip in Genographic/FTDNA to test for Z2110/CTS7822;
3) Chromo2 chip in Britains DNA to test for Z2110/CTS7822;
4 best choice) BigY in FTDNA to test for Z2110/CTS7822 and to discover new SNPs that will allow us to develop a new specific for you branch of the Y-tree.

Rathna
04-04-2014, 07:54 AM
Of course I mostly agree with smal, but I think that the best choices are only two:
1) if 2Bellies wants to spend a little: Chromo2, because not only there is Z2110/CTS7822, but also all the other linked SNPs and, belonging probably to my subclade Z2110**, also my about 15 new SNPs to compare with
2) if 2Bellies may spend more: Big Y, because he could compare with Nochev, with Ware (when he will decide to publish his novel SNPs) and with others to come.

Rathna
04-04-2014, 09:08 AM
On Ysearch there are many interesting haplotypes close to 2Bellies within the Genetic Distance of about 20 out of 67 markers with DYS393=12. They may be distinguished from close haplotypes of R-L21 who had the back mutation in DYS393 from 13 to 12 like that of O'Connor.
They are also interesting because they link the Isles to Central Europe to Italy.

Rathna
04-04-2014, 10:47 AM
2Bellies' haplotype in YHRD format:
14 13-29 26 11 13 12 11-14 12 13 16 19 15 17 xx 13 (12+1)

1 14 13 29 26 11 13 12 11,14 12 11 15 19 15 16 23 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 - >>
1 14 13 29 26 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 - >>
1 14 13 29 26 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 15 16 23 12 21 22 12 12 15 11 - >>
1 14 13 29 26 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 16 16 23 11 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 - >>
1 14 13 29 26 11 13 12 11,14 13 12 15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 - >>
1 of 760 Rio de Janeiro, Brazil [Admixed] Admixed Latin America
1 of 249 Çukurova, Turkey [Turk] Eurasian - Altaic Asia
1 of 56 Sardinia, Italy [Sardinian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 875 Central Portugal, Portugal [Portuguese] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 98 Rimini, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
If we exclude this haplotype for its DYS438=13
1 14 13 29 26 11 13 12 11,14 13 12 15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 - >>
1 of 56 Sardinia, Italy [Sardinian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
and which could be also a Sardinian R-M269* (see LoPiccolo haplotype)
and this
1 14 13 29 26 11 13 12 11,14 12 11 15 19 15 16 23 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 - >>
1 of 760 Rio de Janeiro, Brazil [Admixed] Admixed Latin America
for its dYS439=11, too far from 2Bellies' 13
and this
1 14 13 29 26 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 15 16 23 12 21 22 12 12 15 11 - >>
1 of 386 Central Portugal, Portugal [Portuguese] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
for
DYS439=12 as to 13
DYS437=15 as to 16
DYS458=16 as to 17
DYS576=21 as to 20
DYS570=15 as to 17
even though these last two in fast mutating markers.
The closest to him seem these:
1 14 13 29 26 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 - >>
1 of 98 Rimini, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 14 13 29 26 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 16 16 23 11 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 - >>
1 of 249 Çukurova, Turkey [Turk] Eurasian - Altaic Asia
The link from Rimini (Romagna) and Turkey could be also recent from the Exarcate times, but of course in the two ways. Other tests will clarify, but the Turkish haplotype is already far from these mismatches:
DYS439=12 as to 13
DYS437=15 as to 16
DYS456=16 as to 15
DYS458=16 as to 17
H4=11 (actually 10) as to 13 (actually 12).
We haven't DYS635, but we may presuppose also for 2Bellies the modal 23.
The Italian one has only a mismatch in DYS439=12 as to 13, but of course we don't know the other values.
P.S. It is interesting to say that 2Bellies matches the 13 markers modal haplotype of R-L11* posted by Adrian Ballard and the 12 markers of Plitt from the same place of Germany (R5UP5).

2Bellies
04-04-2014, 01:23 PM
Again, thank you for the comments...I now have a direction of investigation to follow and will order one of the advanced tests...I would love to do the Big-Y but my pocket book won't permit it. Once the results are received I will post them and see what you make of them.

Joe B
04-04-2014, 05:40 PM
2Bellies, as Rathna said you most probably belong to the R1b-Z2110 subclade (M269 -> L23 -> Z2103, Z2105 -> Z2110/CTS7822).
To support this hypothesis you could order:
1) Z2103 or Z2105 in FTDNA;
2) Geno2.0 chip in Genographic/FTDNA to test for Z2110/CTS7822;
3) Chromo2 chip in Britains DNA to test for Z2110/CTS7822;
4 best choice) BigY in FTDNA to test for Z2110/CTS7822 and to discover new SNPs that will allow us to develop a new specific for you branch of the Y-tree.


Again, thank you for the comments...I now have a direction of investigation to follow and will order one of the advanced tests...I would love to do the Big-Y but my pocket book won't permit it. Once the results are received I will post them and see what you make of them.
Hey 2Bellies,
Sticking with the one SNP at a time method would make a lot of sense since you have used that method before. Z2103 or Z2105 can be found in FTDNA's "Order an Upgrade" and then click the "Order an Advanced Tests" button. Either SNP is alright. Z2110/CTS7822 is downstream from Z2103 and Z2105. Unfortunatly FTDNA does not have a Z2110/CTS7822 SNP test yet. Geno 2.0 is it for FTDNA testing of Z2110/CTS7822 and CTS9319. Geno 2.0 does not cover Z2103 or Z2105. Advanced Tests and Geno 2.0 will keep all your results with FTDNA.

BritainsDNA Chromo 2 does a pretty decent job with Z2110 and a few downstream SNPs. Z2105 is covered but the Z2103 probe failed. Chromo 2 results can not be transferred to your FTDNA account.

Overall, the current SNP array tests have not covered our area of the phylogenetic tree very well.

YSEQ (http://www.yseq.net/) is a new testing company started by Thomas Krahn. Dr. Krahn may have done your previous SNP testing at FTDNA. YSEQ does test both Z2110/CTS7822 and CTS9319 at $35 per SNP. YSEQ results are not transferable to FTDNA but that shouldn't be a problem for a SNP or two. I used YSEQ for Z2110/CTS7822 and FTDNA for Z2103. It's worked out well for me as it gives me time to wait for better SNP array or other testing to be developed. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2246-Z2103-Z2104-Z2105-Z2106-Z2107-Z2108-Z2109-Z2110-amp-Sanger-sequencing.

Overview tree of Early R1b early subclades. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?820-R1b-Early-Branching-Phylogeny-%28SNP-based-family-tree%29&p=15405&viewfull=1#post15405
Advanced R1b-Z2103 phylogenetic tree http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1727-R1b-phylogeny&p=26401&viewfull=1#post26401

Whatever testing choices you make will be appreciated!

2Bellies
04-04-2014, 08:12 PM
By "Border Rivers" did you mean to say "Border Reivers" who raided the English/Scot border areas? This would in some way make sense. I tried communicating with a BLACK from the border area whose ancestors were mercenaries in the "Thirty Years War" in Germany. Her ancestor returned to Scotland in the late-1600s (1680?) if I remember correctly. Unfortunately, she was in a car accident and became very sickly. I never was able to speak with her about her BLACK family.

Joe B
04-04-2014, 08:41 PM
By "Border Rivers" did you mean to say "Border Reivers" who raided the English/Scot border areas? This would in some way make sense. I tried communicating with a BLACK from the border area whose ancestors were mercenaries in the "Thirty Years War" in Germany. Her ancestor returned to Scotland in the late-1600s (1680?) if I remember correctly. Unfortunately, she was in a car accident and became very sickly. I never was able to speak with her about her BLACK family.This thread has some information on Border Reivers.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1501-R-Z2103-amp-Early-R1b-an-Enigma-of-Western-Europe
The effects of the "Thirty Years War" were tremendous.

2Bellies
04-26-2014, 02:52 PM
I ordered the Z2103 test through Family Tree. If that proves negative then I will go for the BigY.

smal
04-26-2014, 03:51 PM
There is a possibility to order CTS7822 from FTDNA now.

2Bellies
04-30-2014, 04:23 PM
Thanks ... if the Z2103 test is negative then I will do a BIG Y test but only if they have it on sale (499) again.

2Bellies
05-21-2014, 01:36 PM
Just received my latest test result...I tested positive as Z2103...next step I guess would be BIG-Y but will wait until (hopefully) they have a sale.

smal
05-21-2014, 02:25 PM
2Bellies, you could consider to order CTS7822 as next step.

Joe B
05-21-2014, 03:47 PM
Just received my latest test result...I tested positive as Z2103...next step I guess would be BIG-Y but will wait until (hopefully) they have a sale.

2Bellies, you could consider to order CTS7822 as next step.
Welcome to the R1b-Z2103 club and all the perks and benefits that come with it! smal's excellent recommendation of testing CTS7822/Z2110 makes good sense. Take a look at the phylogenetic trees at the R1b-M269 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx) to get some perspective on your possible placement on the tree. http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1869&d=1400086585
CTS7822 can be found for ordering in your FTDNA haplotree, it's not in the advanced orders like Z2103.

2Bellies
06-10-2014, 12:44 PM
Well, I couldn't resist the Father's Day special....so I ordered the BIG Y. Now, we will see what I am really made of!

2Bellies
06-11-2014, 12:39 PM
Received confirmation today that I am CTS7822.

2Bellies
07-09-2014, 11:28 PM
Just received my BIG-Y results. I am R-CTS9219...next steps? My home computer is a 32-bit (Windows) but the processor is i7 with a bunch of mem. How do I process the raw data. I see that the BAM analysis software is 64-bit. How and where should I share my raw data etc etc etc. Any suggestions greatly appreciated.

2Bellies
07-09-2014, 11:34 PM
Results: L265+, L278+, L350+, L389+, L407+, L468+, L470+, L482+, L483+, L498+, L500+, L506+, L585+, L747+, L752+, L754+, L761+, L768+, L773+, L779+, L82+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M235+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, M415+, M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P225+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P316+, PAGES00026+, PAGES00081+, PAGES00083+, PF2591+, PF2608+, PF2611+, PF2615+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2749+, PF2770+, PF5869+, PF5871+, PF5882+, PF5886+, PF5888+, PF5953+, PF5956+, PF5957+, PF5964+, PF5965+, PF5982+, PF6246+, PF6249+, PF6250+, PF6270+, PF6271+, PF6272+, PF6409+, PF6425+, PF6430+, PF6432+, PF6434+, PF6438+, PF6463+, PF6494+, PF6495+, PF6498+, PF6500+, PF6506+, PF6507+, PF6509+, PF6524+, V241+, V250+, Z2103+, CTS7822+, CTS11985+, CTS12478+, CTS2664+, CTS3063+, CTS3358+, CTS3575+, CTS3654+, CTS4244+, CTS7822+, CTS9219+, F1209+, F313+, F3692+, F719+, F82+, L104+, L132+, L138+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L25-, F2610-, U106-, P312-, L21-, CTS9230-, CTS9906-, CTS9940-, CTS7959-, CTS8563-, CTS2791-, CTS1039-, CTS11767-

lgmayka
07-10-2014, 02:31 AM
How and where should I share my raw data etc etc etc. Any suggestions greatly appreciated.
I encourage every Big Y customer to submit his BAM file to YFull (http://yfull.com/)for professional analysis. YFull charges a modest fee, but:
- Payment is not required until analysis is complete
- Payment is safely through PayPal (even if a credit card is used without creating an account)
- Even if payment is never made, the entry is still placed properly on the public haplotree (possibly creating a new branch).

YFull needs one or two examples of CTS9219+ to create that branch. Right now, YFull only has its parent clade, CTS7822 (a.k.a. Z2110) (http://yfull.com/tree/R-Z2110/).

2Bellies
07-10-2014, 03:13 AM
Thanks Igmayka -- will probably send info to YFull. Might be awhile as cannot download my raw data file...have send note to FT support about the problem.

Joe B
07-10-2014, 04:34 AM
Just received my BIG-Y results. I am R-CTS9219...next steps? My home computer is a 32-bit (Windows) but the processor is i7 with a bunch of mem. How do I process the raw data. I see that the BAM analysis software is 64-bit. How and where should I share my raw data etc etc etc. Any suggestions greatly appreciated.Congratulations and thanks doing the Big-Y. Got you in the _b3a. R1b-L23: Z2103+ Z2105+ CTS7822+ and CTS9219+ group of the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx?section=ycolorized).
In addition to YFull, Full Genomes Corporation does a very good job with analysis of .bam files too.
The most important person that should see your .bam file is smal. He is by far the expert in this area of the tree and project co-administrator too.

Humanist
07-10-2014, 04:49 AM
Got you in the _b3a. R1b-L23: Z2103+ Z2105+ CTS7822+ and CTS9219+ group of the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx?section=ycolorized).

In case I forgot to tell you, congrats on becoming co-admin of the project, Joe!

2Bellies
08-09-2014, 04:11 PM
Congratulations and thanks doing the Big-Y. Got you in the _b3a. R1b-L23: Z2103+ Z2105+ CTS7822+ and CTS9219+ group of the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx?section=ycolorized).
In addition to YFull, Full Genomes Corporation does a very good job with analysis of .bam files too.
The most important person that should see your .bam file is smal. He is by far the expert in this area of the tree and project co-administrator too.

BAM file link received this week and has been submitted to YFull for further processing.

2Bellies
09-12-2014, 09:06 PM
YFull just gave me the analysis of my kit...according to them I am: Y-Haplogroup: R-CTS1450*
Terminal SNP: CTS1450 • CTS7556 • CTS9219 • Y5589 • Y5590 • Y5591 • Y5592 • Y5593 • Y5594
* Based on ISOGG v9.29 at 2 March 2014 and YFull Experimental YTree v2.24.