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XXD
04-28-2021, 07:34 PM
I think it is high time for users with origins from the islands (Cyclades, Dodecanese, North and South Aegean, Ionian) to post the Y-DNA frequencies of their DNA relatives. It is best that we use a single naming convention - I used the Yfull system, not the 23andme one.

Using the aggregate data from the 23andme account of a friend with partial ancestry from Kalymnos, I provide the following frequencies for that island:

Kalymnos (based on 52 matches):

E (5.7%):

E-V13
E-M78
E-L677

G (19.2%):

G-CTS11562 x7
G-PF3345
G-M342 x2

J2a (34.6%):

J2a-M319 x2
J2a-L25 x3
J2a-L26
J2a-M67 x4
J2a-L70 x6
J2a-L24
J2a-M92

J2b (3.8%):

J2b-M12
J2b-M241

J1 (13.4%):

J1a-CTS15/Z1828 x2
J1-Z2215 x5


I2 (3.8%):

I2a-M223
I2a-S12195

I1 (3.8%):

I1-M253
I1-M227

R1b (9.6%):

R1b-BY250
R1b-Z2108
R1b-P297
R1b-L23 x2

R1a (9.6%):

R1a-Z93 x4
R1a-M417


It will be interesting to see how these percentages will change when more people add their matches. However, it is clear that J2a and G are the dominant haplogroups, which, unsurprisingly, are the sole haplogroups we have from ancient samples from what is now Greece.

What is very important is that most of the R1a is R1a-Z93, which, based on other AG posts, seem to be present in Koans and Rhodians as well, and could be part of the Y-DNA package of the proto-Greeks, especially if they are from a Sintashta-like source (which seems to be the case). We really need an island Greek with R1a-Z93 to test using FTDNA Big Y or WGS!

Most (all?) of the R1b seems to me to be of recent foreign origin, which may confirm the point I made above regarding R1a-Z93 and the proto-Greeks.

Islanders, please post the results of your island(s)!

Greekscholar
04-28-2021, 07:47 PM
This is a good topic. This is mostly a 23andMe feature though isn't it? I can see a few self reported listings on GEDmatch, but I can't be sure where the parental line traces to since so many don't have family trees.

XXD
04-28-2021, 07:52 PM
This is a good topic. This is mostly a 23andMe feature though isn't it? I can see a few self reported listings on GEDmatch, but I can't be sure where the parental line traces too since so many don't have family trees.

Yes, I'm afraid it is limited to 23andme, as Ancestry does not provide haplogroup info (unless one downloads their data and uses a Y-chromosome calculator).

Markos
04-28-2021, 07:55 PM
Teach me how

XXD
04-28-2021, 08:07 PM
Teach me how

Took me an hour and a half to prepare the above list, so if you are not in confinement like me, it might take you some more time.

You simply need to download your aggregate data - its an Excel file. You open the Excel file, and you examine your Samian matches one by one, checking their 23andme profiles to make sure that their Y-DNA is Samian (as many might be islanders from their mother's side), and you record their Y haplogroup.

To download your aggregate data, go to "View all DNA relatives", and at the bottom of the page you click on "Download aggregate data".

ADW_1981
04-28-2021, 08:54 PM
I think it is high time for users with origins from the islands (Cyclades, Dodecanese, North and South Aegean, Ionian) to post the Y-DNA frequencies of their DNA relatives. It is best that we use a single naming convention - I used the Yfull system, not the 23andme one.

Using the aggregate data from the 23andme account of a friend with partial ancestry from Kalymnos, I provide the following frequencies for that island:

Kalymnos (based on 52 matches):

E (5.7%):

E-V13
E-M78
E-L677

G (19.2%):

G-CTS11562 x7
G-PF3345
G-M342 x2

J2a (34.6%):

J2a-M319 x2
J2a-L25 x3
J2a-L26
J2a-M67 x4
J2a-L70 x6
J2a-L24
J2a-M92

J2b (3.8%):

J2b-M12
J2b-M241

J1 (13.4%):

J1a-CTS15/Z1828 x2
J1-Z2215 x5


I2 (3.8%):

I2a-M223
I2a-S12195

I1 (3.8%):

I1-M253
I1-M227

R1b (9.6%):

R1b-BY250
R1b-Z2108
R1b-P297
R1b-L23 x2

R1a (9.6%):

R1a-Z93 x4
R1a-M417


It will be interesting to see how these percentages will change when more people add their matches. However, it is clear that J2a and G are the dominant haplogroups, which, unsurprisingly, are the sole haplogroups we have from ancient samples from what is now Greece.

What is very important is that most of the R1a is R1a-Z93, which, based on other AG posts, seem to be present in Koans and Rhodians as well, and could be part of the Y-DNA package of the proto-Greeks, especially if they are from a Sintashta-like source (which seems to be the case). We really need an island Greek with R1a-Z93 to test using FTDNA Big Y or WGS!

Most (all?) of the R1b seems to me to be of recent foreign origin, which may confirm the point I made above regarding R1a-Z93 and the proto-Greeks.

Islanders, please post the results of your island(s)!

R1b-Z2103 was the most frequently appearing haplogroup by a small margin in the EBA sample of Serbia. I guess it depends what you mean by recent or foreign. I'd argue that Bronze Age is old enough to no longer be considered foreign ;) Was R1b-Z2103 present in Greece during the Greek Neolithic or Anatolian Neolithic? Absolutely not based on what we've seen to date.

The challenge with regions like Greece or even Greek islands that have many different haplogroups, is that you need a massive sample to really paint a better example. In your case, is E-V13 really as low as 5.7% or is it due to low sampling? (54 is really too small to tell)

XXD
04-28-2021, 08:55 PM
P.S. Cypriots, as another branch of Greek islanders are obviously welcome!

XXD
04-28-2021, 09:01 PM
R1b-Z2103 was the most frequently appearing haplogroup by a small margin in the EBA sample of Serbia. I guess it depends what you mean by recent or foreign. I'd argue that Bronze Age is old enough to no longer be considered foreign ;) Was R1b-Z2103 present in Greece during the Greek Neolithic or Anatolian Neolithic? Absolutely not based on what we've seen to date.

The challenge with regions like Greece or even Greek islands that have many different haplogroups, is that you need a massive sample to really paint a better example. In your case, is E-V13 really as low as 5.7% or is it due to low sampling? (54 is really too small to tell)

It seems to me that the vast majority of Greek R1b-Z2103 will be shown to be of foreign origin, primarily Albanian, as well as Vlach, Armenian etc. Some Pontic Greeks have Z2013, but we cannot be sure without further testing whether they represent ancient Greek admixture.

Linguistic evidence suggests that Greco-Phrygian entered Greece from what is now Epirus/Southern Albania, so Serbia may not be relevant here. If the proto-Greeks were an offshoot of a Sintashta/Catacomb-like people, then R1a-Z93 would be the haplogroup we would expect them to carry. The presence of this line in Greek islanders, who were less affected by the Slavic invasions, could theoretically stem from the proto-Greeks. I have a match from Corfu who also carries this line.

If proto-Greeks were R1b-Z2103, then it appears that their variant has disappeared, either in ancient or post-Slavic times.

Regarding haplogroup E, it is generally very low on the islands, and usually it is NOT of the E-V13 variety found in the mainland.

Johnny ola
04-28-2021, 10:10 PM
These j2a and G2a lineages needs deeper testing as well. We don't know what branches exactly ancient Greeks belonged to. Some of these lineages can easily be from west asia(Anatolia, Levant, Caucasus, Mesopotamia etc) witch is very likely if we take serious the autosomal of Greek islanders. We need more samples from bronze age/Iron age Greece to have a clear view. It is very likely that the vast majority of bronze age Greeks were prolly a combination of J2a-G2a folks. And these J2a lineages arrived from Eastern Anatolia(via Kura-Araxes culture) this seems to be the most likely senario bringing with them CHG/Iran N input.

Kanenas
04-28-2021, 10:14 PM
R1b-Z2103 was the most frequently appearing haplogroup by a small margin in the EBA sample of Serbia. I guess it depends what you mean by recent or foreign. I'd argue that Bronze Age is old enough to no longer be considered foreign ;) Was R1b-Z2103 present in Greece during the Greek Neolithic or Anatolian Neolithic? Absolutely not based on what we've seen to date.

The challenge with regions like Greece or even Greek islands that have many different haplogroups, is that you need a massive sample to really paint a better example. In your case, is E-V13 really as low as 5.7% or is it due to low sampling? (54 is really too small to tell)

The R1b individuals in Mokrin didn't have any grave goods and had died young, which is indicative of them being low status.

The problem about Z2103 in Greece is that it can have multiple sources from 3 or more directions at various timeframes. Since there is early prescence of M269 (according to Lazaridis at least?) in Bulgaria, possible early prescence of R-PF7562 in Albania etc, not everything is recent.

The problem of R1b as a whole is that there was a period of a so called 'Frankokratia' or 'Latinokratia' in Greek history. So, some western subclades arrived late, although in my opinion some movements from around North Italy around and after the BA collapse are also possible.

ADW_1981
04-28-2021, 11:32 PM
It seems to me that the vast majority of Greek R1b-Z2103 will be shown to be of foreign origin, primarily Albanian, as well as Vlach, Armenian etc. Some Pontic Greeks have Z2013, but we cannot be sure without further testing whether they represent ancient Greek admixture.

Linguistic evidence suggests that Greco-Phrygian entered Greece from what is now Epirus/Southern Albania, so Serbia may not be relevant here. If the proto-Greeks were an offshoot of a Sintashta/Catacomb-like people, then R1a-Z93 would be the haplogroup we would expect them to carry. The presence of this line in Greek islanders, who were less affected by the Slavic invasions, could theoretically stem from the proto-Greeks. I have a match from Corfu who also carries this line.

If proto-Greeks were R1b-Z2103, then it appears that their variant has disappeared, either in ancient or post-Slavic times.

Regarding haplogroup E, it is generally very low on the islands, and usually it is NOT of the E-V13 variety found in the mainland.

Except the 5-6 male Catacomb skeletons we have are all Z2103, not Z93. I agree that BY611 is representative of Albanian, probably one of the main Proto-Illyrian lineages which spread from the NW Balkans south eastwards. I disagree that most Z2103 Greeks fall into this branch, not at all.

ADW_1981
04-28-2021, 11:34 PM
The R1b individuals in Mokrin didn't have any grave goods and had died young, which is indicative of them being low status.

The problem about Z2103 in Greece is that it can have multiple sources from 3 or more directions at various timeframes. Since there is early prescence of M269 (according to Lazaridis at least?) in Bulgaria, possible early prescence of R-PF7562 in Albania etc, not everything is recent.

The problem of R1b as a whole is that there was a period of a so called 'Frankokratia' or 'Latinokratia' in Greek history. So, some western subclades arrived late, although in my opinion some movements from around North Italy around and after the BA collapse are also possible.

The first part about status isn't relevant to my point. Not every burial that was R1b is going to be high status, in particular when it was demonstrated that the family organization around Mokrin was different from the burials found in NW and Central Europe. Then again, we need to be careful not to generalize when we have so few samples.

23abc
04-28-2021, 11:38 PM
Reposting my analysis of my matches.


Kalymnians (59 Unique Surnames)

E
1 Total (~2%)
1x E-L791

G1
19 Total (32%)
19x G-CTS11562

I2
8 Total (~14%)
4x I-S12195
2x I-M223
1x I-CTS5966
1x I-L699

J1
5 Total (~8%)
3x J-CTS5368
2x J-M267

J2a
13 Total (~22%)
8x J-L70
3x J-M67
1x J-M172
1x J-L26

J2b
1 Total (~2%)
1x J-L283

R1a
6 Total (~10%)
3x R-M417
2x R-Z93
1x R-CTS3402

R1b
6 Total (~10%)
2x R-P297
2x R-L23
1x R-U152
1x R-M167

---

Cretans (17 Unique Surnames)

J1
1 Total (~6%)
1x J-M267

J2a
10 Total (~58%)
4x J-M67
3x J-L26
2x J-L70
1x J-M92

I1
2 Total (~12%)
1x I-L205.1
1x I-BY332

I2
1 Total (~6%)
1x I-Z26381

R1a
1 Total (~6%)
1x R-M512

R1b
2 Total (~12%)
1x R-U152
1x R-L23


Remember I removed all duplicate surnames and surnames which can't be traced to Kalymnos at least since around 1850.

I might make a different list accepting any surname + duplicates to see if it differs by much.

dosas
04-29-2021, 05:10 AM
I would abstain, personally, from assigning ethnicities to clades with TMRCAs of 3000-4000+ ybp.

You cannot make blanket statements that Z2103s in Greece are foreign with such distant matches. There's barely anyone testing with such deep states, so there is not a big representation. If we get recent hits, then we can be more certain. Also, "islander" R1bs somehow having more of a stamp of authenticity compared to "mainlander" clade seems weird to me, considering the grande mobility in recorded history of the area, of the past thousand years or so (more if we study the ancient historians).

Plus, there's still the case of these (https://indo-european.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=e355625d5fbe46469cfdc85fce6eb04a) unpublished samples to be made:

https://i.ibb.co/VYQPRWF/Screenshot-2021-04-29-Haplogroup-info.png
https://i.ibb.co/RN0Rg6t/Screenshot-2021-04-29-Haplogroup-info-1.png

peloponnesian
04-29-2021, 08:24 AM
From 23andMe matches' Y haplogroups I found these for islands:

Andros R-L23
Andros R-P25_1
Andros R-Z93
Andros E-M78

Chios R-L23
Chios B-M150

Ano Symi G-Z6032

Kos E-V13

Paros I-FGC9550

Kalimnos E-V13

Crete (Chania) J-L26
Crete I-Z26381
Crete I-L205.1

Euboea (Karystos) R-M269

If someone is making a list I can PM them the surnames.

peloponnesian
04-29-2021, 08:48 AM
The presence of this line in Greek islanders, who were less affected by the Slavic invasions, could theoretically stem from the proto-Greeks. I have a match from Corfu who also carries this line.

Corfu is tricky, it's very close to Greece, Albania and Italy and if I had to guess it's been re-settled multiple times since the Antiquity.

Johnny ola
04-29-2021, 11:21 AM
Corfu is tricky, it's very close to Greece, Albania and Italy and if I had to guess it's been re-settled multiple times since the Antiquity.

Not sure how accurate it can be. But I think Eptanisa Are mostly settled from Mainalnd Greeks especially From the western areas of Greece. It was Also a hideway during ottoman times.

23abc
04-29-2021, 11:41 AM
Not sure how accurate it can be. But I think Eptanisa Are mostly settled from Mainalnd Greeks especially From western areas of Greece. It was Also a hideway during ottoman times.

The question is whether or not their 'Italian-like' admixture is from actual Italians or not. As clearly Ioanian islands as a whole do not score totally like mainland Greeks on any commercial site or admixture test. Maybe Corfu could be an exception here, but all the rest show a pull towards Italy and West Asia compared to the mainland.

About this topic though, I don't think the Y-DNA results are particularly enlightening unless the genealogy of each person is well filtered to make sure only people who's paternal line has a long presence are included in the statistics.

I can tell you now that E-V13 is absent in Kalymnos apart from a small number of recent migrants. As for other Dodecanese islands, I cannot safely say. But I will say that I have a few E-V13 matches from Symi and their paternal lines are confirmed to be native there for many generations. And them scoring almost 0% Greek & Balkan is a good indication it's not due to a recent mainland ancestor.

As for which clades Proto-Greeks carried, I don't think studying the modern population of Greece is particularly useful for this subject. Ancient DNA is the most important. Although if the modern route is insisted, perhaps Northern Tsakonians who were quite differentiated even from Maniots would be much more representative than the average modern Greek.

Worth of investigation possibly is subclade I-S12195. It was found in one Yamnaya individual and also exists in quite a few of my relative matches from Greece, even those outside of Kalymnos. According to Soreclow's stats, it also had a high frequency in certain a certain area of the Peloponnese. Although it seems relatively quite rare overall so it probably was a minor clade anyways. So perhaps not worthy of investigation after all. ;)

XXD
04-29-2021, 11:56 AM
Thank you all for your posts! I think it would be very interesting to compile some lists for the main island complexes of the country.

Just to specify, I did not claim that islander R1b is in someway more legitimately ancient Greek from the mainland lineages. In fact, I stated the very opposite, that all the island R1b lineages I've seen so far look quite Western in their provenance, which fits what we know about the history of these areas. On the contrary, the presence of R1a-Z93 in the Greek islands is quite interesting, as this haplogroup is extremely rare in the mainland (in published studies I think there is only one man from Thessaloniki, but please correct me if I'm wrong). Of course there could be other sources for the Z93 lineages, but we can't know in the absence of ancient samples and modern Greek Z93 Big Y or WGS.

Regarding Corfu, admixture from the mainland is a given, and most of my matches also have some relatives in Albania as well. However, many people from Corfu get a moderate percentage of WANA that mainlanders generally lack, to similar percentages of what the Maniots have. So I expect that the people of the Ionian will plot as slightly southern-shifted mainlanders on a PCA.

Helves
04-29-2021, 12:16 PM
Reposting my analysis of my matches.


Kalymnians (59 Unique Surnames)

E
1 Total (~2%)
1x E-L791

G1
19 Total (32%)
19x G-CTS11562

I2
8 Total (~14%)
4x I-S12195
2x I-M223
1x I-CTS5966
1x I-L699

J1
5 Total (~8%)
3x J-CTS5368
2x J-M267

J2a
13 Total (~22%)
8x J-L70
3x J-M67
1x J-M172
1x J-L26

J2b
1 Total (~2%)
1x J-L283

R1a
6 Total (~10%)
3x R-M417
2x R-Z93
1x R-CTS3402

R1b
6 Total (~10%)
2x R-P297
2x R-L23
1x R-U152
1x R-M167

---

Cretans (17 Unique Surnames)

J1
1 Total (~6%)
1x J-M267

J2a
10 Total (~58%)
4x J-M67
3x J-L26
2x J-L70
1x J-M92

I1
2 Total (~12%)
1x I-L205.1
1x I-BY332

I2
1 Total (~6%)
1x I-Z26381

R1a
1 Total (~6%)
1x R-M512

R1b
2 Total (~12%)
1x R-U152
1x R-L23


Remember I removed all duplicate surnames and surnames which can't be traced to Kalymnos at least since around 1850.

I might make a different list accepting any surname + duplicates to see if it differs by much.

That is a lot of G1. Do you happen to know what subclade(s) these men fall under?

Aspar
04-29-2021, 12:30 PM
.

Regarding haplogroup E, it is generally very low on the islands, and usually it is NOT of the E-V13 variety found in the mainland.

In Heraclides 2017, 34 samples out of 344, or 9.9% of the Greek Cypriots are E-V13.
In Voskarides 2016, 46 samples out of 631 or 7.3% of the Greek Cypriots are E-V13.
Combined, there are 80 samples out of 975 Greek Cypriots, or 8.2% of the Greek Cypriots are E-V13, and 975 samples are fairly representative sample size.

Sources:
Y-chromosome phylogeographic analysis of the Greek-Cypriot population reveals elements consistent with Neolithic and Bronze Age settlements (https://investigativegenetics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13323-016-0032-8)
Y-chromosomal analysis of Greek Cypriots reveals a primarily common pre-Ottoman paternal ancestry with Turkish Cypriots (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0179474)

In King 2008 (http://ychrom.invint.net/upload/iblock/f1a/King%20et%20al%202008%20Differential%20Y-chromosome%20Anatolian%20Influences%20on%20the%20G reek%20and%20Cretan%20Neolithic.pdf), in a sample of 193 people from Crete, there is 6.7% E-V13. This is not the best sample size however the percentage of E-V13 is not hugely different than Cyprus, only 1.5% less.

In some other non-islander Greek but very similar populations such as Sicilians and South Italians, the percentage of E-V13 is very similar to Cyprus and Crete.
In Boattini 2013 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3666984/#pone.0065441.s001), there is 10.6% of South Italians belonging to E-V13 and 7.6% of the Sicilians respectively.

So overall, E-V13 is found between 6.7% and 8.2% in Crete and Greek Cypriots respectively and I don't believe that the other Greek isles closer to the mainland will have less E-V13 than what Cypriots and Cretans have. In fact we should expect the percentage of E-V13 to increase as we get closer to the mainland. Yes, J2a is the largest haplogroup in the islands but we can't compare percentage of haplogroup such as J2a which is lot older than E-V13. If we are to breakdown Cretan J2a haplogroup to smaller subclades then the largest subclade is J-M319, at 8.8%, which is still lot older than E-V13(TMRCA=4900 ybp), with TMRCA of 11200 ybp according to YFULL. J-M67 with a TMRCA of 12000 ybp is the third largest at 5.5%. This indicates that J2a is quite old and diverse in this region and probably connected with the older, pre-Greek peoples of the isles. On the other hand, we have to find out more about R-M269 in Cretans, which stands at 17%, and what subclades can be further broken down to, as well as the Cretan R1a-M198 which stands at 8.2%. These are the only haplogroups that have a bigger impact in Crete than E-V13, which can be TMRCA wise comparable with E-V13.

Edit: Just to add, E-V13 is the largest E haplogroup in Crete as well as in the other islands. Only in Cyprus E-M123 appears larger than E-V13, at 11.2%, combined Voskarides and Heraklides samples together!

Johnny ola
04-29-2021, 12:31 PM
The question is whether or not their 'Italian-like' admixture is from actual Italians or not. As clearly Ioanian islands as a whole do not score totally like mainland Greeks on any commercial site or admixture test. Maybe Corfu could be an exception here, but all the rest show a pull towards Italy and West Asia compared to the mainland.

About this topic though, I don't think the Y-DNA results are particularly enlightening unless the genealogy of each person is well filtered to make sure only people who's paternal line has a long presence are included in the statistics.

I can tell you now that E-V13 is absent in Kalymnos apart from a small number of recent migrants. As for other Dodecanese islands, I cannot safely say. But I will say that I have a few E-V13 matches from Symi and their paternal lines are confirmed to be native there for many generations. And them scoring almost 0% Greek & Balkan is a good indication it's not due to a recent mainland ancestor.

As for which clades Proto-Greeks carried, I don't think studying the modern population of Greece is particularly useful for this subject. Ancient DNA is the most important. Although if the modern route is insisted, perhaps Northern Tsakonians who were quite differentiated even from Maniots would be much more representative than the average modern Greek.

Worth of investigation possibly is subclade I-S12195. It was found in one Yamnaya individual and also exists in quite a few of my relative matches from Greece, even those outside of Kalymnos. According to Soreclow's stats, it also had a high frequency in certain a certain area of the Peloponnese. Although it seems relatively quite rare overall so it probably was a minor clade anyways. So perhaps not worthy of investigation after all. ;)

I agree with the most you mention. But I do not have seen enough samples/kits from Eptanisa yet.... So I cannot say that I have an opinion about their genetics. If you have gedmatch kits feel free to share them.

XXD
04-29-2021, 12:39 PM
In Heraclides 2017, 34 samples out of 344, or 9.9% of the Greek Cypriots are E-V13.
In Voskarides 2016, 46 samples out of 631 or 7.3% of the Greek Cypriots are E-V13.
Combined, there are 80 samples out of 975 Greek Cypriots, or 8.2% of the Greek Cypriots are E-V13, and 975 samples are fairly representative sample size.

Sources:
Y-chromosome phylogeographic analysis of the Greek-Cypriot population reveals elements consistent with Neolithic and Bronze Age settlements (https://investigativegenetics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13323-016-0032-8)
Y-chromosomal analysis of Greek Cypriots reveals a primarily common pre-Ottoman paternal ancestry with Turkish Cypriots (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0179474)

In King 2008 (http://ychrom.invint.net/upload/iblock/f1a/King%20et%20al%202008%20Differential%20Y-chromosome%20Anatolian%20Influences%20on%20the%20G reek%20and%20Cretan%20Neolithic.pdf), in a sample of 193 people from Crete, there is 6.7% E-V13. This is not the best sample size however the percentage of E-V13 is not hugely different than Cyprus, only 1.5% less.

In some other non-islander Greek but very similar populations such as Sicilians and South Italians, the percentage of E-V13 is very similar to Cyprus and Crete.
In Boattini 2013 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3666984/#pone.0065441.s001), there is 10.6% of South Italians belonging to E-V13 and 7.6% of the Sicilians respectively.

So overall, E-V13 is found between 6.7% and 8.2% in Crete and Greek Cypriots respectively and I don't believe that the other Greek isles closer to the mainland will have less E-V13 than what Cypriots and Cretans have. In fact we should expect the percentage of E-V13 to increase as we get closer to the mainland. Yes, J2a is the largest haplogroup in the islands but we can't compare percentage of haplogroup such as J2a which is lot older than E-V13. If we are to breakdown Cretan J2a haplogroup to smaller subclades then the largest subclade is J-M319, at 8.8%, which is still lot older than E-V13(TMRCA=4900 ybp), with TMRCA of 11200 ybp according to YFULL. J-M67 with a TMRCA of 12000 ybp is the third largest at 5.5%. This indicates that J2a is quite old and diverse in this region and probably connected with the older, pre-Greek peoples of the isles. On the other hand, we have to find out more about R-M269 in Cretans, which stands at 17%, and what subclades can be further broken down to, as well as the Cretan R1a-M198 which stands at 8.2%. These are the only haplogroups that have a bigger impact in Crete than E-V13, which can be TMRCA wise comparable with E-V13.

Edit: Just to add, E-V13 is the largest E haplogroup in Crete as well as in the other islands. Only in Cyprus E-M123 appears larger than E-V13, at 11.2%, combined Voskarides and Heraklides samples together!

Thank you for this excellent post!

XXD
04-29-2021, 02:08 PM
So here is an updated list of the Y-DNA of Kalymnos, based on 23abc's and my friend's matches combined (hopefully without many duplicates). We both used unique surnames:

Kalymnos (based on 113 matches):


E (3.5%):

E-V13
E-M78
E-L677
E-L791

G (25.6%):

G-CTS11562 x26
G-PF3345
G-M342 x2

I2 (8.8%):

I2a-M223 x3
I2a-S12195 x5
I2a-CTS10228
I2a-L699

I1 (1.7%)

I1-M253
I1-M227

J2a (27.4%):

J2a-M319 x2
J2a-L25 x3
J2a-L26 x2
J2a-M67 x7
J2a-L70 x14
J2a-L24
J2a-M92
J2a-M172

J2b (2.6%)

J2b-M12
J2b-M241
J2b-L83

J1 (10.6%):

J1a-CTS15/Z1828 x2
J1-Z2215 x8
J1-M267 x2

R1a (9.7%):

R1a-Z93 x6
R1a-M417 x4
R1a-CTS3402

R1b (9.7%):

R1b-BY250
R1b-Z2108
R1b-P297 x3
R1b-L23 x4
R1b-U152
R1b-M67


Here is Crete (based on 68 matches of mine, 23abc's and peloponnesian's):

Crete

E (14.7%):

E-M78 x2
E-M123 x3
E-M183
E-V13 x3

G (2.9%):

G-Z30503
G-Z17887

I2a (5.8%):

I2a-M438 x2
I2a-S17250 x2

I2c (?) (7.3%):

I-Z26381 x5 Armenian origin?

I1 (7.3%):

I1-L205.1 x3
I1-Y7075 x2

J2a (44%):

J2a-L25 x2
J2a-L26 x10
J2a-L581 x3
J2a-M67 x6
J2a-L24
J2-M172 x2
J2a-L70 x3
J2a-M92
J2a-M319 x2

J1 (4.4.%):

J- CTS15/Z1828 x2
J1-M267

R1a (5.8%):

R1a-CTS3402
R1a-M512
R1a-Z282
R1a-L1029

R1b (8.8%):

R1b-P311
R1b-U152 x3
R1b-L23
R1b-S1480


P.S. Note that I am not sure how I-Z26381 is currently classified (in the past it was known as I2c?). Due to low sample size, the Cretan frequencies shown here are likely to be unbalanced. However, 113 people for a small island like Kalymnos is not so bad!

J Man
04-29-2021, 02:14 PM
So here is an updated list of the Y-DNA of Kalymnos, based on 23abc's and my friend's matches combined (hopefully without many duplicates). We both used unique surnames:

Kalymnos (based on 113 matches):


E (3.5%):

E-V13
E-M78
E-L677
E-L791

G (25.6%):

G-CTS11562 x26
G-PF3345
G-M342 x2

I2 (8.8%):

I2a-M223 x3
I2a-S12195 x5
I2a-CTS10228
I2a-L699

I1 (1.7%)

I1-M253
I1-M227

J2a (27.4%):

J2a-M319 x2
J2a-L25 x3
J2a-L26 x2
J2a-M67 x7
J2a-L70 x14
J2a-L24
J2a-M92
J2a-M172

J2b (2.6%)

J2b-M12
J2b-M241
J2b-L83

J1 (10.6%):

J1a-CTS15/Z1828 x2
J1-Z2215 x8
J1-M267 x2

R1a (9.7%):

R1a-Z93 x6
R1a-M417 x4
R1a-CTS3402

R1b (9.7%):

R1b-BY250
R1b-Z2108
R1b-P297 x3
R1b-L23 x4
R1b-U152
R1b-M67


Here is Crete (based on 68 matches of mine, 23abc's and peloponnesian's):

Crete

E (14.7%):

E-M78 x2
E-M123 x3
E-M183
E-V13 x3

G (2.9%):

G-Z30503
G-Z17887

I2a (5.8%):

I2a-M438 x2
I2a-S17250 x2

I2c (?) (7.3%):

I-Z26381 x5 Armenian origin?

I1 (7.3%):

I1-L205.1 x3
I1-Y7075 x2

J2a (44%):

J2a-L25 x2
J2a-L26 x10
J2a-L581 x3
J2a-M67 x6
J2a-L24
J2-M172 x2
J2a-L70 x3
J2a-M92
J2a-M319 x2

J1 (4.4.%):

J- CTS15/Z1828 x2
J1-M267

R1a (5.8%):

R1a-CTS3402
R1a-M512
R1a-Z282
R1a-L1029

R1b (8.8%):

R1b-P311
R1b-U152 x3
R1b-L23
R1b-S1480


P.S. Note that I am not sure how I-Z26381 is currently classified (in the past it was known as I2c?). Due to low sample size, the Cretan frequencies shown here are likely to be unbalanced. However, 113 people for a small island like Kalymnos is not so bad!

Interesting looking breakdown of the haplogroup results of your matches. Do you know of any Y-DNA results from the Sfakia region of Crete?

J.delajara
04-29-2021, 02:30 PM
So here is an updated list of the Y-DNA of Kalymnos, based on 23abc's and my friend's matches combined (hopefully without many duplicates). We both used unique surnames:

Kalymnos (based on 113 matches):


E (3.5%):

E-V13
E-M78
E-L677
E-L791

G (25.6%):

G-CTS11562 x26
G-PF3345
G-M342 x2

I2 (8.8%):

I2a-M223 x3
I2a-S12195 x5
I2a-CTS10228
I2a-L699

I1 (1.7%)

I1-M253
I1-M227

J2a (27.4%):

J2a-M319 x2
J2a-L25 x3
J2a-L26 x2
J2a-M67 x7
J2a-L70 x14
J2a-L24
J2a-M92
J2a-M172

J2b (2.6%)

J2b-M12
J2b-M241
J2b-L83

J1 (10.6%):

J1a-CTS15/Z1828 x2
J1-Z2215 x8
J1-M267 x2

R1a (9.7%):

R1a-Z93 x6
R1a-M417 x4
R1a-CTS3402

R1b (9.7%):

R1b-BY250
R1b-Z2108
R1b-P297 x3
R1b-L23 x4
R1b-U152
R1b-M67


Here is Crete (based on 68 matches of mine, 23abc's and peloponnesian's):

Crete

E (14.7%):

E-M78 x2
E-M123 x3
E-M183
E-V13 x3

G (2.9%):

G-Z30503
G-Z17887

I2a (5.8%):

I2a-M438 x2
I2a-S17250 x2

I2c (?) (7.3%):

I-Z26381 x5 Armenian origin?

I1 (7.3%):

I1-L205.1 x3
I1-Y7075 x2

J2a (44%):

J2a-L25 x2
J2a-L26 x10
J2a-L581 x3
J2a-M67 x6
J2a-L24
J2-M172 x2
J2a-L70 x3
J2a-M92
J2a-M319 x2

J1 (4.4.%):

J- CTS15/Z1828 x2
J1-M267

R1a (5.8%):

R1a-CTS3402
R1a-M512
R1a-Z282
R1a-L1029

R1b (8.8%):

R1b-P311
R1b-U152 x3
R1b-L23
R1b-S1480


P.S. Note that I am not sure how I-Z26381 is currently classified (in the past it was known as I2c?). Due to low sample size, the Cretan frequencies shown here are likely to be unbalanced. However, 113 people for a small island like Kalymnos is not so bad!

Thanks a lot for this threat. It is, indeed, quite interesting the relevant presence of J2 L70 on Greek islands. Best regards

Andrewid
04-29-2021, 02:35 PM
In Heraclides 2017, 34 samples out of 344, or 9.9% of the Greek Cypriots are E-V13.
In Voskarides 2016, 46 samples out of 631 or 7.3% of the Greek Cypriots are E-V13.
Combined, there are 80 samples out of 975 Greek Cypriots, or 8.2% of the Greek Cypriots are E-V13, and 975 samples are fairly representative sample size.

Sources:
Y-chromosome phylogeographic analysis of the Greek-Cypriot population reveals elements consistent with Neolithic and Bronze Age settlements (https://investigativegenetics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13323-016-0032-8)
Y-chromosomal analysis of Greek Cypriots reveals a primarily common pre-Ottoman paternal ancestry with Turkish Cypriots (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0179474)

In King 2008 (http://ychrom.invint.net/upload/iblock/f1a/King%20et%20al%202008%20Differential%20Y-chromosome%20Anatolian%20Influences%20on%20the%20G reek%20and%20Cretan%20Neolithic.pdf), in a sample of 193 people from Crete, there is 6.7% E-V13. This is not the best sample size however the percentage of E-V13 is not hugely different than Cyprus, only 1.5% less.

In some other non-islander Greek but very similar populations such as Sicilians and South Italians, the percentage of E-V13 is very similar to Cyprus and Crete.
In Boattini 2013 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3666984/#pone.0065441.s001), there is 10.6% of South Italians belonging to E-V13 and 7.6% of the Sicilians respectively.

So overall, E-V13 is found between 6.7% and 8.2% in Crete and Greek Cypriots respectively and I don't believe that the other Greek isles closer to the mainland will have less E-V13 than what Cypriots and Cretans have. In fact we should expect the percentage of E-V13 to increase as we get closer to the mainland. Yes, J2a is the largest haplogroup in the islands but we can't compare percentage of haplogroup such as J2a which is lot older than E-V13. If we are to breakdown Cretan J2a haplogroup to smaller subclades then the largest subclade is J-M319, at 8.8%, which is still lot older than E-V13(TMRCA=4900 ybp), with TMRCA of 11200 ybp according to YFULL. J-M67 with a TMRCA of 12000 ybp is the third largest at 5.5%. This indicates that J2a is quite old and diverse in this region and probably connected with the older, pre-Greek peoples of the isles. On the other hand, we have to find out more about R-M269 in Cretans, which stands at 17%, and what subclades can be further broken down to, as well as the Cretan R1a-M198 which stands at 8.2%. These are the only haplogroups that have a bigger impact in Crete than E-V13, which can be TMRCA wise comparable with E-V13.

Edit: Just to add, E-V13 is the largest E haplogroup in Crete as well as in the other islands. Only in Cyprus E-M123 appears larger than E-V13, at 11.2%, combined Voskarides and Heraklides samples together!

Thanks for this useful contribution.

This E-V13 found in Cyprus probably started to appear from the late Bronze Age with the arrival of Mycenaean Greek settlers and perhaps Sea Peoples. Evidence from recent 2021 research is indicating that Cyprus saw a demographic increase compared to other areas in the region during this period. This is consistent with a migration from the west and northwest, which is also evidenced by the well established LBA sociolinguistic transformation on the island, where the majority of towns became Greek-speaking, with the Cypriot Syllabary being used to represent the widely prevalent Arcado-Cypriot dialect.

See: 'Holocene regional population dynamics and climatic trends in the Near East: A first comparison using archaeo-demographic proxies'

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0277379120307010

This from the abstract:

"This paper illustrates long-term trends in human population and climate from the Late Pleistocene to the Late Holocene (14,000–2500 cal. yr. BP) in order to assess to what degree climate change impacted human societies in the Near East. It draws on a large corpus of archaeo-demographic data, including anthropogenic radiocarbon dates (n = 10,653) and archaeological site survey (n = 22,533), and 16 hydro-climatic records from cave speleothems and lake sediments. Where possible, inferred population dynamics and climatic trends have been made spatially congruent, and their relationships have been statistically tested. Demographic proxies and palaeoclimatic records have been compared for the greater Near East as a whole and for seven major geo-cultural regions (Anatolia, Arabia, Cyprus, Iran, Levant, Mesopotamia, and South Caucasus). This approach allows us to identify regionalised patterns in population and climate trends."

P7: "The Levant and Cyprus show similar population patterns across the Holocene with some striking differences in particular periods. For instance, in Cyprus population departs positively from the global pattern during the Aceramic Neolithic (11,000e9500 cal. yr. BP) and the Late Bronze Age(Fig. 3c)..."



P22: "(During the Cypriot Late Bronze Age)...Aegean migrants settled along the coastal regions where polities survived and new trading harbours such as Amathus and Kourion were established."

And for the record, I'm also E but one of those downstream of E-M123 and forming a practically unique subclade:)

23abc
04-29-2021, 06:25 PM
Thanks for this useful contribution.

This E-V13 found in Cyprus probably started to appear from the late Bronze Age with the arrival of Mycenaean Greek settlers and perhaps Sea Peoples. Evidence from recent 2021 research is indicating that Cyprus saw a demographic increase compared to other areas in the region during this period. This is consistent with a migration from the west and northwest, which is also evidenced by the well established LBA sociolinguistic transformation on the island, where the majority of towns became Greek-speaking, with the Cypriot Syllabary being used to represent the widely prevalent Arcado-Cypriot dialect.

See: 'Holocene regional population dynamics and climatic trends in the Near East: A first comparison using archaeo-demographic proxies'

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0277379120307010

This from the abstract:

"This paper illustrates long-term trends in human population and climate from the Late Pleistocene to the Late Holocene (14,000–2500 cal. yr. BP) in order to assess to what degree climate change impacted human societies in the Near East. It draws on a large corpus of archaeo-demographic data, including anthropogenic radiocarbon dates (n = 10,653) and archaeological site survey (n = 22,533), and 16 hydro-climatic records from cave speleothems and lake sediments. Where possible, inferred population dynamics and climatic trends have been made spatially congruent, and their relationships have been statistically tested. Demographic proxies and palaeoclimatic records have been compared for the greater Near East as a whole and for seven major geo-cultural regions (Anatolia, Arabia, Cyprus, Iran, Levant, Mesopotamia, and South Caucasus). This approach allows us to identify regionalised patterns in population and climate trends."

P7: "The Levant and Cyprus show similar population patterns across the Holocene with some striking differences in particular periods. For instance, in Cyprus population departs positively from the global pattern during the Aceramic Neolithic (11,000e9500 cal. yr. BP) and the Late Bronze Age(Fig. 3c)..."



P22: "(During the Cypriot Late Bronze Age)...Aegean migrants settled along the coastal regions where polities survived and new trading harbours such as Amathus and Kourion were established."

And for the record, I'm also E but one of those downstream of E-M123 and forming a practically unique subclade:)

Have you seen this study about Cypriot Y-DNA?

https://investigativegenetics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13323-016-0032-8

23abc
04-29-2021, 06:32 PM
That is a lot of G1. Do you happen to know what subclade(s) these men fall under?

As stated, G-CTS11562.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-CTS11562/

I doubt there's any diversity. I'm not sure what the TMRCA of their ancestor would be but it would probably answer the question of how long Kalymnos has been inhabited by the same population. Or if it has been repopulated more recently than I think it has.

Andrewid
04-29-2021, 07:45 PM
Have you seen this study about Cypriot Y-DNA?

https://investigativegenetics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13323-016-0032-8

Indeed. I have referenced to it before in posts. And Heraclides uses their findings to compare with those of Voskarides' team. There have also been extensive discoveries of tombs with skeletons in good condition near Larnaca over the last few years, which date from just before the Greek settlements. aDNA has been extracted and the findings will be fascinating and will tell us much about the Cypriot population in the early part of the LBA.

Helves
04-29-2021, 08:51 PM
As stated, G-CTS11562.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-CTS11562/

I doubt there's any diversity. I'm not sure what the TMRCA of their ancestor would be but it would probably answer the question of how long Kalymnos has been inhabited by the same population. Or if it has been repopulated more recently than I think it has.

Thanks, CTS11562 is pretty old, I wonder what final subclade this men fall under.

XXD
05-09-2021, 12:27 AM
Interesting looking breakdown of the haplogroup results of your matches. Do you know of any Y-DNA results from the Sfakia region of Crete?

Yes, one of my relatives from Sfakia is J2-M172.

J Man
05-10-2021, 01:50 AM
Yes, one of my relatives from Sfakia is J2-M172.

Very cool! Do you know which village or town he comes from?

XXD
05-10-2021, 02:05 AM
Very cool! Do you know which village or town he comes from?

I'm afraid not :( We just know from oral traditions that our maternal grandparents come from the region of Sfakia, and their surname is fairly common in many villages of Sfakia and the surrounding areas.

J Man
05-10-2021, 02:42 PM
I'm afraid not :( We just know from oral traditions that our maternal grandparents come from the region of Sfakia, and their surname is fairly common in many villages of Sfakia and the surrounding areas.

No worries mate. :)....Interesting stuff anyway.