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Paulie
04-05-2014, 05:50 AM
FTDNA Kit 67450, YSearch DZ7XA

So I combined my SNP lists from BigY, Chromo2 and previous EA S series tests and plugged them into http://ytree.morleydna.com/ on the experimental tree, which popped out:

R1b1a2a1 M412/L51/PF6536/S167
R1b1a2a1~1 CTS6889, PF7589

When using the ISOGG tree in the MorleyDNA predictor, it highlighted L128+, which is way down in R1b1a2a1a1c1a3 land.

One of my earlier EthnoAncestry tests also found me S161+ which delayed my S136 result for quite a while. I just sent an email to BritainsDNA asking if S161 is either of these two new ones or if they could identify it so we can get it on the ISOGG tree.

It's going to be a fun few months as all these results come in. :beerchug:

Rathna
04-05-2014, 08:32 AM
Hi Paulie. When I checked the Big Y results, published on the "ht 35 FTDNA Project", of Nochev (N112116) and Ware (247119), both R-Z2110*, with a sample of R-L51 (Cornwell: 231206), for seeing which mutations belonged to these brother haplogroups (they derive both from R-L23*), I found many SNPs own of R-L51, even though all these should be checked for SNPs not tested, no_calls etc.
CTS10085+, CTS11339+, CTS11726+, CTS11819+, CTS1738+, CTS2229+, CTS3075+,CTS3446+, CTS4380+, CTS5981+, CTS6889+, CTS7153+, CTS8355+, L1099+, L128+, PF2624+, PF2750+, PF3498+, PF3561+, PF5511+, PF5863+, PF5880+, PF5884+, PF6248+, PF6418+, PF6452+, PF7589+, PR4090+.
Are you sure that do only CTS6889 and PF7589 remain of all these?
If so I could say that I checked also Chromo2 (I did it too) and published something also about R-L51 in "R1b phylogeny2 here. In the about 2000 samples published by BritainsDNA
"There is 1 R-L51 (Z2113, Z2118)
591: S1157, S1161, S1260, S3282, S8889".
I don't know if that sample are you or not. Now we have also the location of those SNPs. Let me know:
S1157=

16591918 S1157 CTS5981 Z2115 S1157 SNP G A

S1161=

17173768 S1161 CTS6889 S1161 SNP T C

S1260=

14435899 S1260 S1260 SNP A T


S3282=

22256254 S3282 S3282 SNP G A

S8889=

4310132 S8889 S8889 SNP A G

About S136 I know very well it, because I have a deletion of 9bp in that region. It is the same as L50, i.e. a mutation in 7,028, 023/6,952,023.

Rathna
04-05-2014, 10:00 AM
Of course R-L51* is a paragroup and probably no one L51* will be found, because, beyond who had the mutation L11* and subclade (comprised all the bush of the L11 paragroup), every survived line will have had its mutations. This is Morley 5:

2169 R1b1a2a1–1 Z2118/PF7589 [6/6]
2170 R1b1a2a1–1–1 CTS2484 [1/1], CTS6397 [1/1], Z2113 [1/1]
2171 N66729 GB-E
2172 R1b1a2a1–1–2 CTS6889 [5/5]
2173 22103, 231206, 250621, 252171, 316279

I have given above other SNPs for the tree, comprised Z2115/CTS5981/S1157.

Rathna
04-05-2014, 10:36 AM
It seems that these persons are negative for CTS6889, but we should be sure that they have been tested for this sNP:
N66729 William Brereton c 1755. Wybunbury, Cheshire, England R1b1a2a1a R-L51
216052 William Brewerton 1765-1805 Cheshire/Flintshire R1b1a2a1a R-L51
For the surname and the haplotype they seem to belong to the same family:
216052 William Brewerton 1765-1805 Cheshire/Flintshire United Kingdom R1b1a2a1a
13 24 14 11 11-14 13 12 12 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-16-17-17-17-17 11 11 19-23 16 15 17 19 37-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-24 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 21 14 12 11 13 10 11 12 12 N66729 William Brereton c 1755. Wybunbury, Cheshire, En England R1b1a2a1a
13 24 14 11 11-14 13 12 12 14 13 30 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-16-17-17 11 11 19-23 16 15 17 19 36-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-24 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 21 14 12 11 13 10 11 12 12
thus that they are negative is very likable, because we cannot think that the test failed for both.
This would be so far the oldest haplotype of R-L51.

These other three haplotypes are probably linked for having DYS572=10:
N51805 Grainger Co., Tennessee Unknown Origin R1b1a2a1a
13 25 14 11 11-14 13 12 11 13 13 30 15 9-10 11 11 26 15 19 29 15-15-17-21 12 10 19-23 15 15 18 17 36-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 21 20 13 12 11 13 10 11 12 12 111988 John Collins, b. Northampton Co., Va; d. 1824 Unknown Origin R1b1a2a1a
13 25 14 11 11-14 13 12 12 13 13 29 16 9-10 11 11 24 15 19 30 15-15-16-18 11 11 19-23 15 17 17 17 36-38 12 12 11 9 16-16 8 10 10 8 11 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 13 22 20 12 12 10 13 10 11 12 12 134706 Shadrack Collins, Sr. b.c. 1750, Ireland Ireland R1b1a2a1a
13 25 14 11 11-14 13 12 13 13 13 29 16 9-10 11 11 24 15 19 30 15-15-16-18 11 11 19-23 15 17 17 17 36-37 12 12 11 9 16-16 8 10 10 8 11 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 13 22 20 12 12 10 13 10 11 12 12
It is supposable that they belong to that ancient nucleous of Irish L51 I discussed about the map of Richard Rocca.

Paulie
04-05-2014, 12:34 PM
Hi Paulie. When I checked the Big Y results, published on the "ht 35 FTDNA Project", of Nochev (N112116) and Ware (247119), both R-Z2110*, with a sample of R-L51 (Cornwell: 231206), for seeing which mutations belonged to these brother haplogroups (they derive both from R-L23*), I found many SNPs own of R-L51, even though all these should be checked for SNPs not tested, no_calls etc.
CTS10085+, CTS11339+, CTS11726+, CTS11819+, CTS1738+, CTS2229+, CTS3075+,CTS3446+, CTS4380+, CTS5981+, CTS6889+, CTS7153+, CTS8355+, L1099+, L128+, PF2624+, PF2750+, PF3498+, PF3561+, PF5511+, PF5863+, PF5880+, PF5884+, PF6248+, PF6418+, PF6452+, PF7589+, PR4090+.
Are you sure that do only CTS6889 and PF7589 remain of all these?

I used the Y-Merge complementary tool for Chrome BigY Addon and also included my 23andMe raw data, and merged. Here's my results (NoCall means not on the merge list)

CTS10085-, NoCall, CTS11726-, CTS11819-, NoCall, NoCall, NoCall, NoCall, NoCall, CTS5981+, CTS6889+, CTS7153+, CTS8355+, NoCall, L128+, NoCall, PF2750+, NoCall, NoCall, PF5511+, PF5863+, NoCall, PF5884+, PF6248+, NoCall, NoCall, NoCall, PF7589+, PR4090-

Rathna
04-05-2014, 01:55 PM
I used the Y-Merge complementary tool for Chrome BigY Addon and also included my 23andMe raw data, and merged. Here's my results (NoCall means not on the merge list)

CTS10085-, NoCall, CTS11726-, CTS11819-, NoCall, NoCall, NoCall, NoCall, NoCall, CTS5981+, CTS6889+, CTS7153+, CTS8355+, NoCall, L128+, NoCall, PF2750+, NoCall, NoCall, PF5511+, PF5863+, NoCall, PF5884+, PF6248+, NoCall, NoCall, NoCall, PF7589+, PR4090-


Thus these SNPs are common between you and Cornwell:
CTS5981+, CTS6889+, CTS7153+, CTS8355+, L128+, PF2750+, PF5511+, PF5863+, PF5884+, PF6248+, PF7589+.
By checking them on the semarglDNA spreadsheet:
CTS5981/Z2115/S1157
CTS6889/S1161
CTS7153: not present, could be good. Not tested from Chromo2.
CTS8355: present in many R1b haplogroups
L128: not present. Tested from Chromo2, isn't in the sample published:

14624254 L128 L128 PF3499 SNP T C

PF2750: present in other haplogroups
PF5511: present in other haplogroups
PF5863: present in other haplogroups
PF5884: present in other haplogroups
PF6248: present in other haplogroups
PF7589/Z2118: found in 252171, N66729, 231206, 87-5845, 22103,

Paulie
04-05-2014, 02:58 PM
All those others are H4=11. My merge list also included my Chromo2 list. I'll look up those positions you asked about later today.

Paulie
04-05-2014, 03:30 PM
Let me know:
S1157=

16591918 S1157 CTS5981 Z2115 S1157 SNP G A

S1161=

17173768 S1161 CTS6889 S1161 SNP T C

S1260=

14435899 S1260 S1260 SNP A T


S3282=

22256254 S3282 S3282 SNP G A

S8889=

4310132 S8889 S8889 SNP A G

About S136 I know very well it, because I have a deletion of 9bp in that region. It is the same as L50, i.e. a mutation in 7,028, 023/6,952,023.

"chrY 16591918 . G A 1484.13 PASS . GT 1"

"chrY 17173768 . T C 1484.13 PASS . GT 1"

14435899 Don't Have in BigY VCF/BED or in 23andMe

22256254 Don't Have in BigY VCF/BED or in 23andMe

4310132 Don't Have in BigY VCF/BED or in 23andMe

Rathna
04-05-2014, 03:40 PM
All those others are H4=11.

H4 isn't a very slow mutating marker and doesn't demonstrate anything. Anyway there are many R-L51 with H4 different from 11:

E5620 R1b-L51 (xP310) =10
86538 R1b-L51 (xP310) =9
41519 R1b-L51 (xP310)=9
E11319 R1b-L51 (xP310) =12
67450 R1b-L51 (xP310) =9
W63WR R1b-L51 (xP310) =12
50168 R1b-L51 (xP310) =12
143613 R1b-L51 (xP310) =12
N100679 R1b-L51 (xP310) =10

Rathna
04-05-2014, 03:46 PM
"chrY 16591918 . G A 1484.13 PASS . GT 1"

"chrY 17173768 . T C 1484.13 PASS . GT 1"

14435899 Don't Have in BigY VCF/BED or in 23andMe

22256254 Don't Have in BigY VCF/BED or in 23andMe

4310132 Don't Have in BigY VCF/BED or in 23andMe

Of course, these last three are the SNPs tested by Chromo2, but if you did Chromo2 you are negative. This is probably an English R-L51. But what is meaningful for the L51 phylogeny is that the "Irish" ones are ancestral, and in my theory they are linked to Iberia and Iberia
to Italy. Of course the answer will come when we test some Italian L51.

Paulie
04-05-2014, 03:58 PM
English may be so. My closest STRs are to Chamberlaine (unusual spelling) and a Savard who's line some paper trail shows is an adoption around the end of the American Revolution in Quebec.

My Chamberlaine match has passed away along with his sister I believe. My Savard match was doing testing for genealogy.

Next closest group are the Hooks and they are an active project. I'll dash off an email and see if any of them are doing these SNP tests.

The H4=9 is important; those with it and 426=13 are closest to me. :-)

Paulie
04-05-2014, 04:34 PM
Of course, these last three are the SNPs tested by Chromo2, but if you did Chromo2 you are negative. This is probably an English R-L51. But what is meaningful for the L51 phylogeny is that the "Irish" ones are ancestral, and in my theory they are linked to Iberia and Iberia
to Italy. Of course the answer will come when we test some Italian L51.

I double checked against my Chromo2 list, and I show S8889+, the other two are unlisted.

Also checked the earlier merge list, and these were missing off it: CTS1738+, PF2624+.

So to re-show the comparison again:



CTS10085+, CTS11339+, CTS11726+, CTS11819+, CTS1738+, CTS2229+, CTS3075+,CTS3446+, CTS4380+, CTS5981+, CTS6889+, CTS7153+, CTS8355+, L1099+, L128+, PF2624+, PF2750+, PF3498+, PF3561+, PF5511+, PF5863+, PF5880+, PF5884+, PF6248+, PF6418+, PF6452+, PF7589+, PR4090+.


CTS10085-, NoCall, CTS11726-, CTS11819-, CTS1738+, NoCall, NoCall, NoCall, NoCall, CTS5981+, CTS6889+, CTS7153+, CTS8355+, NoCall, L128+, PF2624+, PF2750+, NoCall, NoCall, PF5511+, PF5863+, NoCall, PF5884+, PF6248+, NoCall, NoCall, NoCall, PF7589+, PR4090-

Rathna
04-05-2014, 04:42 PM
[QUOTE=Paulie;36276]I double checked against my Chromo2 list, and I show S8889+, the other two are unlisted.[QUOTE=Paulie;36276]

But you should look at your raw data to see if you were tested for them or not.

Paulie
04-05-2014, 05:04 PM
I'll email them to get the raw data. It's not a link on the website as far as I could find.

Cofgene
04-05-2014, 08:44 PM
There are new Geno 2 and Big-Y R-L51+ results in the Swiss Anabaptist project. Sipe and the Swiss "Showalter" lineage. I can work on getting access to the Big-Y results for any direct comparisons to other L51+ Big-Y or FGC results.

Rathna
04-06-2014, 12:59 AM
All the people R-L51 tested and published on "ht 35 FTDNA Project" have CTS7153 (except 22103 John Thomas Worner, b. 1786 SC; d. 1880 LA R1b1a2a1a R-L51
but he has for LD), and this SNP belongs to the two lines shown so far: the Brewertons and all the others.
Of course these two lines are parallel and we cannot say that one is ancestral to the other, but it is interesting to me that what I called the "Irish R-L51" is beyond all the others from Switzerland to the Isles, thus to verify my hypothesis that this line could link Italy to Iberia to Ireland, just for what I said about the Richard Rocca's map.

P.S. I am seeing now that this SNP belongs to the first stock of L51:
Z2119 CTS7153 Z2119 15833558 17324164


Z2111 3323086 3263086 no yes Approx hg: R-L51 no no no G -> A
Z2112 4652104 4592104 no yes Approx hg: R-L51 no no no T -> G
Z2113 6028320 5968320 no yes Approx hg: R-L51 no no no G -> A
Z2114 13757450 15248056 no yes Approx hg: R-L51 no no no C -> T
Z2115 CTS5981 Z2115 15101312 16591918 no yes Approx hg: R-L51 no no no G -> A
Z2116 CTS10379 Z2116 17936652 19427258 no yes Approx hg: R-L51 no no no A -> G
Z2117 7544708 7484708 no yes Approx hg: R-L51 no no no C -> T
Z2118 PF7589 Z2118 8127783 8067783 no yes Approx hg: R-L51 no no no A -> G
Z2119 CTS7153 Z2119 15833558 17324164 no yes Approx hg: R-L51 no no no G -> C
Z2120 12332081 13822081 no yes Approx hg: R-L51 no no no T -> C

Rathna
04-06-2014, 12:21 PM
I'd be grateful to smal if he, with the information above, did a tree like that of R-L23 for R-L51, and my hypothesis could be soon verified by looking at the R-L51 in the 1KGP. If I remember well there was also a Tuscan amongst them. If there were someone from Iberia or South America it would be perfect.

smal
04-06-2014, 06:47 PM
NA20785 TSI Z2111+ Z2112+ Z2113+ Z2114+/- Z2115+ Z2116+ Z2117+/- Z2118+ Z2119+ Z2120-
HG01066 PUR Z2111+ Z2112+ Z2113+ Z2114+ Z2115+ Z2116+ Z2117+ Z2118+ Z2119? Z2120+
NA20537 TSI Z2111+ Z2112+ Z2113+ Z2114+/- Z2115+ Z2116+ Z2117? Z2118? Z2119+ Z2120+/-

HG00148 GBR Z2111- Z2112- Z2113- Z2114- Z2115- Z2116- Z2117- Z2118- Z2119- Z2120-

smal
04-06-2014, 07:47 PM
NA20785 TSI CTS10085- CTS11339? CTS11726- CTS11819- CTS1738- CTS2229- CTS3075+ CTS3446+ CTS4380- CTS5981+ CTS6889- CTS7153+ CTS8355?
HG01066 PUR CTS10085- CTS11339? CTS11726- CTS11819- CTS1738- CTS2229+ CTS3075+/- CTS3446+ CTS4380- CTS5981+ CTS6889+ CTS7153? CTS8355+
NA20537 TSI CTS10085- CTS11339- CTS11726- CTS11819- CTS1738- CTS2229- CTS3075+ CTS3446+ CTS4380- CTS5981+ CTS6889? CTS7153+ CTS8355+

HG00148 GBR CTS10085? CTS11339- CTS11726- CTS11819- CTS1738- CTS2229- CTS3075+ CTS3446+ CTS4380- CTS5981- CTS6889- CTS7153- CTS8355+

smal
04-06-2014, 08:08 PM
NA20785 TSI L1099+ L128? PF2624+ PF2750+ PF3498?
HG01066 PUR L1099+ L128? PF2624+ PF2750+ PF3498?
NA20537 TSI L1099+ L128+/- PF2624? PF2750? PF3498?

HG00148 GBR L1099+ L128- PF2624+ PF2750+ PF3498?

Rathna
04-06-2014, 08:34 PM
Great work, smal. Many many thanks to you. I'll study the matter deeply, but at a first sight it seems to me that what I was searching for has been found: Tuscan NA20785 is negative for CTS6889, like the two persons I called above of the "Irish L51", whereas all the others are positive and belong to the Central European till the Isles cluster. The other English negative for CTS6889 is also negative for all the SNPs of L51, from Z2111 to Z2120. Thus it would seem confirmed my theory of the migration of L51 from Italy to Iberia and from there to Ireland as the theory of Zilhao of the migration of the agriculturalists by sea from Italy 7500YBP and the landing to the Valencia region and to Central Portugal. After that the strange presence of L51 in the region between Ireland and Northern Ireland of to-day probably going up the rivers.

Of course I must study the rest of the SNPs you posted. Anyway many thanks for your work.

P.S. Not only, but Tuscans seem to have both the clades: CTS6889+ and CTS6889-.

smal
04-06-2014, 08:36 PM
NA20785 TSI PF3561+ PF5511? PF5863+/- PF5880+ PF6248? PF6418+/- PF6452+ PF7589+ PR4090+
HG01066 PUR PF3561+ PF5511+ PF5863+ PF5880+ PF6248+ PF6418+ PF6452+ PF7589+ PR4090+
NA20537 TSI PF3561+ PF5511+ PF5863+ PF5880+ PF6248+ PF6418+ PF6452+ PF7589? PR4090+

HG00148 GBR PF3561+ PF5511+ PF5863+ PF5880+ PF6248? PF6418+ PF6452+ PF7589- PR4090+

Paulie
04-07-2014, 05:45 AM
For reference (particularly my own)

S1161 = CTS6889
Z2199 = CTS7153

Rathna
04-07-2014, 05:53 AM
For reference (particularly my own)

S1161 = CTS6889
Z2199 = CTS7153

Z2119 CTS7153 Z2119 15833558 17324164

Paulie
04-07-2014, 06:02 AM
Yep, but it didn't jump out to me right away. Been a few years. I recognize the 17324164 as the position, what's the other number?

Rathna
04-07-2014, 06:12 AM
It is also interesting, from smal's reading of 1KGP, that HG01066 (from Puerto Rico, thus probably from Iberia) is positive for all the SNPs from Z2111 to Z2120 (uncertain Z2119, but likely positive), whereas the two Tuscans are:
1) certain negative for Z2120 NA20785 whereas the other Tuscan NA20537 is positive
2) both are uncertain for Z2114 and Z2117
Also these data point to an ancestral status of the Tuscan samples, to be deepen of course.
NA20785 TSI Z2111+ Z2112+ Z2113+ Z2114+/- Z2115+ Z2116+ Z2117+/- Z2118+ Z2119+ Z2120-
HG01066 PUR Z2111+ Z2112+ Z2113+ Z2114+ Z2115+ Z2116+ Z2117+ Z2118+ Z2119? Z2120+
NA20537 TSI Z2111+ Z2112+ Z2113+ Z2114+/- Z2115+ Z2116+ Z2117? Z2118? Z2119+ Z2120+/-

Rathna
04-07-2014, 06:14 AM
Yep, but it didn't jump out to me right away. Been a few years. I recognize the 17324164 as the position, what's the other number?

S1161=

17173768 S1161 CTS6889 S1161 SNP T C

CelticGerman
04-07-2014, 08:13 AM
It is also interesting, from smal's reading of 1KGP, that HG01066 (from Puerto Rico, thus probably from Iberia) is positive for all the SNPs from Z2111 to Z2120 (uncertain Z2119, but likely positive), whereas the two Tuscans are:
1) certain negative for Z2120 NA20785 whereas the other Tuscan NA20537 is positive
2) both are uncertain for Z2114 and Z2117
Also these data point to an ancestral status of the Tuscan samples, to be deepen of course.
NA20785 TSI Z2111+ Z2112+ Z2113+ Z2114+/- Z2115+ Z2116+ Z2117+/- Z2118+ Z2119+ Z2120-
HG01066 PUR Z2111+ Z2112+ Z2113+ Z2114+ Z2115+ Z2116+ Z2117+ Z2118+ Z2119? Z2120+
NA20537 TSI Z2111+ Z2112+ Z2113+ Z2114+/- Z2115+ Z2116+ Z2117? Z2118? Z2119+ Z2120+/-

You should not conclude too quickly that Puerto Rico stands for Iberian ancestry. I just learnt German migration took place there (certainly low numbers however). Moreover "Iberia" is not exact I think, for the Spanish migration came from the Canary Islands above all.

Rathna
04-07-2014, 09:38 AM
You should not conclude too quickly that Puerto Rico stands for Iberian ancestry. I just learnt German migration took place there (certainly low numbers however). Moreover "Iberia" is not exact I think, for the Spanish migration came from the Canary Islands above all.

I don't know if you minded that for my theory that that Puerto Rican were of Central European origin would be better, because in my theory (migration of R-L51 from Italy to Iberia to Ireland) he should have been CTS6889-, whereas he is CTS6889+ like the people (so far) from Switzerland to the isles.
Anyway good data for me.

CelticGerman
04-07-2014, 10:55 AM
I don't know if you minded that for my theory that that Puerto Rican were of Central European origin would be better, because in my theory (migration of R-L51 from Italy to Iberia to Ireland) he should have been CTS6889-, whereas he is CTS6889+ like the people (so far) from Switzerland to the isles.
Anyway good data for me.

My comment did not concern your specific case. I only reacted spontaneously concerning your conclusion that Puerto Ricans are probably from Iberia. Puerto Rico is of interest for me, because I'm R1b/U152/Z36/..../.../CTS188 .., which, besides me, surprisingly only somebody from Puerto Rico has. And as I am German, I checked a little bit the origin of Puerto Ricans and I found information on German migration there (directly from Germany and US Americans with German origins).

Rathna
04-07-2014, 12:40 PM
My comment did not concern your specific case. I only reacted spontaneously concerning your conclusion that Puerto Ricans are probably from Iberia. Puerto Rico is of interest for me, because I'm R1b/U152/Z36/..../.../CTS188 .., which, besides me, surprisingly only somebody from Puerto Rico has. And as I am German, I checked a little bit the origin of Puerto Ricans and I found information on German migration there (directly from Germany and US Americans with German origins).

I understand your desire, i.e. that of being a German because you probably speak a German language or come from Germany even though it seems you are living in Belgium...but you should know (and many have discussed about that also recently in the forum) that being born in Germany doesn't mean thar your Y is of German origin. It could be your mt or your autosome after hundreds of years, but your Y may come from someone who lived there before that "Germans" arrived, and it seems not so far ago, above all in the limits of the Roman Empire or before of the Celt people who lived there from hundreds or thousands of years. You know that your hg. is a little German, much more Italo-Celtic, if we want to consider these two peoples only one, as probably they were before the separation. I even think that also Gemans were in this unity, but further back in the time.
From the last tree of Richard Rocca just seems that above all Z36 (and also Z56) are overwhelmingly "Italian" (I am waiting to see more about L2, even though there are there too some lines clearly Italian). Thus I think that your Y (even though at the origins there is an Anonymous from the UK) has probably an origin in those people (Italic or Celtic) amongst whom probably this Y was born.
Thus that Puerto Rican (direct ancestor of you) is very likely from a Latin country, not only the Iberian ones, but probably you should know that also the Italian immigration, above all Genoese, was much much huger than the Germanic one.

CelticGerman
04-07-2014, 02:05 PM
I understand your desire, i.e. that of being a German because you probably speak a German language or come from Germany even though it seems you are living in Belgium...but you should know (and many have discussed about that also recently in the forum) that being born in Germany doesn't mean thar your Y is of German origin. It could be your mt or your autosome after hundreds of years, but your Y may come from someone who lived there before that "Germans" arrived, and it seems not so far ago, above all in the limits of the Roman Empire or before of the Celt people who lived there from hundreds or thousands of years. You know that your hg. is a little German, much more Italo-Celtic, if we want to consider these two peoples only one, as probably they were before the separation. I even think that also Gemans were in this unity, but further back in the time.
From the last tree of Richard Rocca just seems that above all Z36 (and also Z56) are overwhelmingly "Italian" (I am waiting to see more about L2, even though there are there too some lines clearly Italian). Thus I think that your Y (even though at the origins there is an Anonymous from the UK) has probably an origin in those people (Italic or Celtic) amongst whom probably this Y was born.
Thus that Puerto Rican (direct ancestor of you) is very likely from a Latin country, not only the Iberian ones, but probably you should know that also the Italian immigration, above all Genoese, was much much huger than the Germanic one.

Yes, of course. Please don't misunderstand my post. I really don't care about being German or anything else. I only try to find out where the link between a German line (since 16th century) and a sample from Puerto Rico might be. Z36 is considered as Celtic Alpine until now. If the link is in Italy (Celtic migration?) this would be fine with me.

Rathna
04-07-2014, 03:03 PM
Yes, of course. Please don't misunderstand my post. I really don't care about being German or anything else. I only try to find out where the link between a German line (since 16th century) and a sample from Puerto Rico might be. Z36 is considered as Celtic Alpine until now. If the link is in Italy (Celtic migration?) this would be fine with me.

That's a long time ago from where everybody thought that Italian R-U152 had come to Italy with Celts and recently! Now we know that it is in Italy from many thousands of years and about its origin we'll see next and I wouldn't be so sure that it hadn't been Italy. Anyway with your haplotype it shouldn't be difficult to find who is the closest to you. Who matches closely these values: DYS19=13, YCAIIb=21, DYS438=13, DYF406F1=11, DYS520=19, DYS617=13, DYS640=12, by considering only the first 67 markers, but there is enough.
But now I'd beg you to leave this thread to R-L51, for what it has been created. Thanks.

Paulie
04-08-2014, 04:00 AM
Hi Paulie. When I checked the Big Y results, published on the "ht 35 FTDNA Project", of Nochev (N112116) and Ware (247119), both R-Z2110*, with a sample of R-L51 (Cornwell: 231206), for seeing which mutations belonged to these brother haplogroups (they derive both from R-L23*), I found many SNPs own of R-L51, even though all these should be checked for SNPs not tested, no_calls etc.
CTS10085+, CTS11339+, CTS11726+, CTS11819+, CTS1738+, CTS2229+, CTS3075+,CTS3446+, CTS4380+, CTS5981+, CTS6889+, CTS7153+, CTS8355+, L1099+, L128+, PF2624+, PF2750+, PF3498+, PF3561+, PF5511+, PF5863+, PF5880+, PF5884+, PF6248+, PF6418+, PF6452+, PF7589+, PR4090+.
Are you sure that do only CTS6889 and PF7589 remain of all these?


Triple Check:

CTS10085+, CTS11339 N/C, CTS11726+, CTS11819+, CTS1738+, CTS2229 N/C, CTS3075 N/C, CTS3446 N/C, CTS4380 N/C, CTS5981+, CTS6889+, CTS7153+, CTS8355+, L1099 N/C, L128+, PF2624+, PF2750+, PF3498 N/C, PF3561 N/C, PF5511+, PF5863+, PF5880 N/C, PF5884+, PF6248+, PF6418 N/C, PF6452 N/C, PF7589+, PR4090+.

I'll have to wait for my BED file to be processed by FGC, as searching the 5.8GB bed is a bit slow. :)



If so I could say that I checked also Chromo2 (I did it too) and published something also about R-L51 in "R1b phylogeny2 here. In the about 2000 samples published by BritainsDNA
"There is 1 R-L51 (Z2113, Z2118)
591: S1157, S1161, S1260, S3282, S8889".
I don't know if that sample are you or not. Now we have also the location of those SNPs. Let me know:

S1157=

16591918 S1157 CTS5981 Z2115 S1157 SNP G A

S1161=

17173768 S1161 CTS6889 S1161 SNP T C

S1260=

14435899 S1260 S1260 SNP A T


S3282=

22256254 S3282 S3282 SNP G A

S8889=

4310132 S8889 S8889 SNP A G

About S136 I know very well it, because I have a deletion of 9bp in that region. It is the same as L50, i.e. a mutation in 7,028, 023/6,952,023.


Have my RAW Chromo2 now:

Z2113+
Z2118+

S1157+
S1161+
S1260-
S3282-
S8889-

Z2110-

Paulie
04-08-2014, 04:09 AM
It is also interesting, from smal's reading of 1KGP, that HG01066 (from Puerto Rico, thus probably from Iberia) is positive for all the SNPs from Z2111 to Z2120 (uncertain Z2119, but likely positive), whereas the two Tuscans are:
1) certain negative for Z2120 NA20785 whereas the other Tuscan NA20537 is positive
2) both are uncertain for Z2114 and Z2117
Also these data point to an ancestral status of the Tuscan samples, to be deepen of course.
NA20785 TSI Z2111+ Z2112+ Z2113+ Z2114+/- Z2115+ Z2116+ Z2117+/- Z2118+ Z2119+ Z2120-
HG01066 PUR Z2111+ Z2112+ Z2113+ Z2114+ Z2115+ Z2116+ Z2117+ Z2118+ Z2119? Z2120+
NA20537 TSI Z2111+ Z2112+ Z2113+ Z2114+/- Z2115+ Z2116+ Z2117? Z2118? Z2119+ Z2120+/-

Z2110 AA negative
Z2113 AA positive
Z2115 = S1157 AA positive
Z2118 = PF7589 GG positive

Rathna
04-08-2014, 06:32 AM
Everything is clear, Paulie. You are R-L51/CTS6889+. The person tested from Britains DNA is probably an Englishmen of a different subclade from yours, having these three SNPs you haven't.

Z2110 is the last SNP in this series of the upstream haplogroup, mine, R-L23, and of course you are negative as I am negative for the whole series of L51 from Z2111 to Z2120.

Paulie
04-08-2014, 08:27 PM
Thanks Rathna. I appreciate the help!

Now to recruit some more L51/L11- into the joys of deep SNP testing. :-)

Geolocke
04-09-2014, 10:17 AM
I checked a little bit the origin of Puerto Ricans and I found information on German migration there (directly from Germany and US Americans with German origins).

I also have family from Puerto Rico, although not in my direct line. Puerto Rico was one of the territories 'acquired' from Spain after the Spanish-American War (1898) and many American 'administrators' moved to Puerto Rico as a result. My own family members came from the upper mid-west region, and were probably Germanic or Nordic in origin. I have found that there was at least 1 generation of descendants born in Puerto Rico, and possibly a second generation born there (of my extended family), so it seem very likely there was some "recent" influx of non-Iberian DNA into the island's population.

Cofgene
04-09-2014, 11:37 PM
Two L51+, two P312, and 2 of our U106* Big-Y results have been run through the R1b-U106 comparison engine. The attached file is the output. Curious results....

Rathna
04-10-2014, 12:56 AM
Two L51+, two P312, and 2 of our U106* Big-Y results have been run through the R1b-U106 comparison engine. The attached file is the output. Curious results....

I thank you very much, Cofgene, for these data, that everyone may see. I am waiting to print them for studying them better, but it seems to me that they are clearly showing which SNPs belong to each of these three haplogroups. This is the ideal way to assign each SNP to an haplogroup and to see which are ancestral to them. Nothing strange I see. Some problem could arise when it isn't clear the strand the data are read in.

P.S.

17173768 (S1161)


Where we see that Walder (87721) from Switzerland has the mutation
17173768 (S1161)= CTS6889
000 L51 87721.zip
that is just my theory: R-L51 probably was born in Italy and expanded via sea to Iberia and to Ireland and we find that first haplotype in the Tuscan of the 1KGP. After it expanded Northwards to Switzerland till the Isles.
"Come volevasi dimostrare" we'd say in Italian.

Rathna
04-11-2014, 03:16 AM
To understand where an haplogroup is born is like in identifying a Black Hole: we don't see it, but the matter that falls out in.
So we may identify an haplogroup with the* by seeing where there are the derived subclades, i.e. what springs up out.

Rathna
04-11-2014, 11:20 AM
The two R-L51 tested have 4 mutations in common plus 43 singletons (87721) and 35 singletons (216052):
(43+35) : 2 = 39 + 4 = 43
43 x 180 = 7740 years before present (YBP) which is just the time of the migration of the agriculturalists from Italy to Iberia as to Zilhao.
This could be the age of the separation between the L51 found in Ireland and in Tuscany (CTS6889-) and the L51 found from Switzerland to the Isles (CTS6889+).
At the level of the STRs these two samples have 24 mutations out of 67 markers, i.e. 2370 years (MR 0,0022, 25 years for generation).
The factor between the usual mutation rate and that of the Big Y SNPs is 3.2, a little more than the Zhivotovskij one (0,0006875 against 0,00066).

Paulie
04-12-2014, 03:18 AM
My Full Genomes analysis of my BigY results has been completed. Should be able to see it sometime this weekend. Many thanks to FullGenomes.com and Greg Magoon for the analysis, I'm very grateful.

Rathna
04-12-2014, 07:13 AM
My Full Genomes analysis of my BigY results has been completed. Should be able to see it sometime this weekend. Many thanks to FullGenomes.com and Greg Magoon for the analysis, I'm very grateful.

So you will be able to compare your singletons with those of Warner's, but at 67 markers you have a GD of 33 out 67, i.e., with the above calculation, about 8900 YBP. Of course the calculation is rough, but I presuppose that your line and that of Warner's have in common only the mutation CTS6889+ and differ in all the other SNPs, i.e. they could be two lines separated at the beginning. We'll see if my hypothesis is right.
If you share other SNPs with Warner, we'll be able to set our calculation again.

Paulie
04-12-2014, 01:39 PM
Here's a preview from Greg Magoon while I am waiting to get access to my analysis done by Full Genomes:



(...)Anyway, I noticed that you belong to the Z2115, Z2118, and Z2119 branch beneath L51, which seems to capture almost all the previous L51* people, I believe. Below this branch, you have S1141, S1161, and FGC12521 (9762593 T>C), which are shared by 2 of the 4 other people on the Z2115/Z2118/Z2119 branch in the Full Genomes database. These two are the anonymous research samples, HG01066 and PGP77.

Greg


I looked around position 9762593 using ybrowser on the ISOGG site and there aren't any named SNPs within 20bp in either direction.

Getting real interesting now. :)

Rathna
04-12-2014, 01:58 PM
Here's a preview from Greg Magoon while I am waiting to get access to my analysis done by Full Genomes:



I looked around position 9762593 using ybrowser on the ISOGG site and there aren't any named SNPs within 20bp in either direction.

Getting real interesting now. :)

You have FGC12521 (9762593 T>C) in common with Warner beyond the foreseen CTS6889. I'd say that all this confirms all my theories. Invite Greg Magoon to read this thread: perhaps he will find here something interesting.

P.S.
2836575 S1141 S1141 SNP C T

About this SNP it is in a region perhaps not tested from Big Y. Won't it be a Greg's mistake for S1161 signed twice?

This person from Puerto Rico (HG01066) seems linked more with the haplotypes from Switzerland to the Isles more than to the Tuscan/Irish ones, also for his Z2120+ against the Tuscan Z2120- and of course for CTS6889+.

Paulie
04-12-2014, 03:31 PM
One more quote from Greg Magoon:


Hi Paul,
We have a "genotyping" report that is generated as part of the analysis and it shows you have a C at S136/L50, apparently indicating a negative/ancestral result.

I also took a closer look at the Z2120. This does appear in your results after all and you appear to be derived, as expected, but this is classified as a lower reliability result.

And just one more interesting finding from a quick look at the INDELs: You also have a 1-bp insertion (21981452 CT->CTT) that appears to have the same sharing pattern as S1141, S1161, and FGC12521 in the 4 other "L51*" guys; it is called FGC12549:
21981452 CT CTT FGC12549+



I double checked, and I'm S136- per my old Ethnoancestry results. So that's correct.

Rathna, so just to summarize your theory, you are talking L51+ from Italy migration during Roman Republic times into northern Europe, when you speak of Italy (which as a country and not city states I think of post Roman).

I did just get my analysis results from Full Genomes, but have to run for the day, so more later. :-)

Rathna
04-12-2014, 03:40 PM
Greg Magoon wrote to you:
" Below this branch, you have S1141, S1161, and FGC12521 (9762593 T>C), which are shared by 2 of the 4 other people on the Z2115/Z2118/Z2119 branch in the Full Genomes database. These two are the anonymous research samples, HG01066 and PGP77".
Thus we may think that the other two persons negative for S1161/CTS6889 and FGC12521 are the two Tuscans of the 1KGP. Very good. This would solve also the doubt of smal about CTS6889 for the second Tuscan.
Anyway doesn't seem that Magoon has the Warner's Big Y. Thus let's wait.

Rathna
04-12-2014, 03:47 PM
Rathna, so just to summarize your theory, you are talking L51+ from Italy migration during Roman Republic times into northern Europe, when you speak of Italy (which as a country and not city states I think of post Roman).



My theory of the Italian Refugium says that the migration of R-L51 from Italy to Iberia by sea happened 7500 years ago and not in recent times. After there was a migration Northwards to Central Europe and to the Isles. But the first migration from Iberia reached also Ireland, where we find an R-L51/CTS6889- linked to the Tuscan samples.
My times are very different from those of the other people and it seems that Big Y and Full Y give reason to me.
Of course there wasn't a country named Italy then, but there weren't either Switzerland or England...

Rathna
04-12-2014, 03:52 PM
Greg Magoon writes: "And just one more interesting finding from a quick look at the INDELs: You also have a 1-bp insertion (21981452 CT->CTT) that appears to have the same sharing pattern as S1141, S1161, and FGC12521 in the 4 other "L51*" guys; it is called FGC12549: 21981452 CT CTT FGC12549+".
This mutation could be very ancient and belonging to all R-L51 if it has been found also in the two Tuscans.

P.S. It is clear from what I said above that you are S136- and Z2120+.

Rathna
04-12-2014, 04:09 PM
Paulie, you should compare your singletons with those of the two R-L51 Big Y posted by Cofgene in #39 above: they are Warner (CTS6889+) and Brewerton (CTS6889-).

Paulie
04-12-2014, 08:47 PM
Comparing to the three reference L51's in the FGC analysis of my BigY data:



8069541 T C S11003+, other 3 are ancestral.
9762593 T C FGC12521+ for me and HG01066, other two are ancestral.
17173768 T C S1161+(CTS6889), for me and HG1066, NA20537 has a ? and NA20785 is ancestral.
2836575 C T S1141+, for me and HG1066, other two are ancestral.


S11003 is also in my Chromo2 results as well, showing as derived.

S1141 on my Chromo2 is showing ancestral (GG) (BigY shows a single * for reliability) so an inconstancy there.

Rathna
04-12-2014, 10:54 PM
Comparing to the three reference L51's in the FGC analysis of my BigY data:



8069541 T C S11003+, other 3 are ancestral.
9762593 T C FGC12521+ for me and HG01066, other two are ancestral.
17173768 T C S1161+(CTS6889), for me and HG1066, NA20537 has a ? and NA20785 is ancestral.
2836575 C T S1141+, for me and HG1066, other two are ancestral.


S11003 is also in my Chromo2 results as well, showing as derived.

S1141 on my Chromo2 is showing ancestral (GG) (BigY shows a single * for reliability) so an inconstancy there.

Thus it is confirmed all I said:
1) 8069541 T C S11003+ is a private mutation of yours
2) you match closer than other people tested so far the Puerto Rican of the1KGP (HG01066)
3) 2836575 C T S1141+ would seem inconsistent because Chromo2 tested you ancestral (read in the other strand (GG)), but we don't understand why also HG01066 would seem positive, i.e. the sample which seems the closest to you
4) the two Tuscans of the 1KGP belong to a different clade as to yours, but we already knew that from SNP CTS6889
5) but you have to compare your data with Warner, which has your SNP 9762593 T C FGC12521 and comes from Switzerland. If you cannot do it, you should send your singletons to me. This to confirm or disprove my theory about the link between you and Warner I expressed above

Paulie
04-12-2014, 11:03 PM
See below. I think I have it figured out.

Paulie
04-13-2014, 02:30 AM
Thus it is confirmed all I said:
1) 8069541 T C S11003+ is a private mutation of yours
2) you match closer than other people tested so far the Puerto Rican of the1KGP (HG01066)
3) 2836575 C T S1141+ would seem inconsistent because Chromo2 tested you ancestral (read in the other strand (GG)), but we don't understand why also HG01066 would seem positive, i.e. the sample which seems the closest to you
4) the two Tuscans of the 1KGP belong to a different clade as to yours, but we already knew that from SNP CTS6889
5) but you have to compare your data with Warner, which has your SNP 9762593 T C FGC12521 and comes from Switzerland. If you cannot do it, you should send your singletons to me. This to confirm or disprove my theory about the link between you and Warner I expressed above

But looking at the "Variant Compare" report from FGC, I have this which is different than the "Haplogroup Compare" which I gave the earlier list. I must be reading that one incorrectly. My apologies. But I'm trying to get up to speed on this. :)

So the variant compare we have:



8069541 T C S11003+ HG01990, NA12760, NA12752, NA12760
16591918 G A S1157+ (also known as Z2115, CTS5981) HG01066, NA20537, NA20785, PGP77
8067783 A G Z2118+ (also known as PF7589) HG01066, NA20785, PGP77
17324164 G C Z2119+ (also known as CTS7153) NA20537, NA20785, PGP77
9762593 T C FGC12521+ HG01066, PGP77
17173768 T C S1161+ (also known as CTS6889) HG01066, PGP77
2836575 C T S1141+ * PGP77


For "000 L51 87721.zip" in the spreadsheet attached to this thread, only have matches with FGC12521, S1161/CTS6889 and under questionable singletons, we match on 14624294 (S569 also known as PF682) but I have a 3 * low confidence. No variant matches on any with "000 L51 216052.zip". I still have 27 that neither of the L51's on the U106/P312 spreadsheet have.

Rathna
04-13-2014, 05:55 AM
For "000 L51 87721.zip" in the spreadsheet attached to this thread, only have matches with FGC12521, S1161/CTS6889 and under questionable singletons, we match on 14624294 (S569 also known as PF682) but I have a 3 * low confidence. No variant matches on any with "000 L51 216052.zip". I still have 27 that neither of the L51's on the U106/P312 spreadsheet have.

Many thanks, Paulie. This I wanted to know from you. All my theories are confirmed.
Many use 180 years for mutation of the Big Y, which tests only 9,9 (about) bp of the Y.
You could see how many singletons you have to compare with those of Brewerton and Warner. If you divide for three, you get the average number to multiply for 180.
We'll see next how also this question will evolve, because we don't take into account the less reliable SNPs, some of them could be confirmed as stable.
But my theory comes from far and is linked to many other data.
I expect the same from R1b1/L389+, R-M269 with the "Sardinian SNPs", R-L23 in its subclades, etc.

Diverclic
04-13-2014, 09:37 AM
Paulie, I remember your 23andME results (long ago). It's good to have so many L51* (not anymore * in fact) sequenced on the Y chromosome. I do not share the view of 180 year per SNP but it's hard to discuss these data until we get more.
In my view, L51 people reflected the early copper workers migration in Europe, probably as tiny communities included in larger populations, just like jewish communities in middle ages to picture it. The dispersal of the L51 speaks for such a diffusion. Among many L51 communities 1 evolved a L11/S127 branch leading to the western conquest (P312, U106). In order to fit with the number of SNPs and the known copper work timing in Europe the average time between 2 SNPs should be around 130 years rather than 180 years.

Do you know howw many SNPs below M207 you have ?

Rathna
04-13-2014, 09:57 AM
Paulie, I remember your 23andME results (long ago). It's good to have so many L51* (not anymore * in fact) sequenced on the Y chromosome. I do not share the view of 180 year per SNP but it's hard to discuss these data until we get more.
In my view, L51 people reflected the early copper workers migration in Europe, probably as tiny communities included in larger populations, just like jewish communities in middle ages to picture it. The dispersal of the L51 speaks for such a diffusion. Among many L51 communities 1 evolved a L11/S127 branch leading to the western conquest (P312, U106). In order to fit with the number of SNPs and the known copper work timing in Europe the average time between 2 SNPs should be around 130 years rather than 180 years.

Do you know howw many SNPs below M207 you have ?

As to the paper of Rootsy et al about the Levites R1a, he should have about 230 SNPs from P and 190 from R.
Thus 190 x 130 (your hypothesis) R would be 24700 years old
Thus 190 x 180 (Michal and others hypothesis) R would be 34200 years old
Someone calculates the split between R1a and R1b at 25000 years ago.

In your hypothesis R-L51 would be (43 x 130) 5590 years old.

Diverclic
04-13-2014, 11:54 AM
Yes, that's what I expected. There might be some improvements but R1a / R1b split means R1 node and from what I remember R node and R1 node are not that far away. You are considering generation of 25 years as I understand. 5600 years ago is roughly what was estimated by the best STR comparison for L51. STR dating for "recent" times shouldn't be forgotten.

Rathna
04-13-2014, 12:58 PM
STR dating for "recent" times shouldn't be forgotten.

I don't forget STRs calculation for shorter times, but probably not more than 1 or 2 thousand years. I did some calculation (see above) and the age of the usual methods were at least the half of your times. Which calculations are you referring to?

Diverclic
04-13-2014, 02:17 PM
This is a quick post ; more another time.

Here is a link to a recent calculator on a Excel spreadsheet :

http://aklyosov.home.comcast.net/Kilin-Klyosov%20TMRCA%20111%20ver%201.xlsb

Now to say one word about the timing of R1b-L51, one should forget that the L11 branches and, among these, the P312 and U106 branches ARE among L51 "progeny" and should be included in the calculation. For example, above you were finding 4 SNPs common to the 2 L51 compared but I suspect these 4 SNPs are NOT in the L11 lineage ; therefore the L51 MRCA is earlier.

Rathna
04-13-2014, 02:35 PM
This is a quick post ; more another time.

Here is a link to a recent calculator on a Excel spreadsheet :

http://aklyosov.home.comcast.net/Kilin-Klyosov%20TMRCA%20111%20ver%201.xlsb

Now to say one word about the timing of R1b-L51, one should forget that the L11 branches and, among these, the P312 and U106 branches ARE among L51 "progeny" and should be included in the calculation. For example, above you were finding 4 SNPs common to the 2 L51 compared but I suspect these 4 SNPs are NOT in the L11 lineage ; therefore the L51 MRCA is earlier.

The 4 SNPs in common come from the post above of Cofgene you can see and are own of this subclade of R-L51*, i.e. probably the unique survived with DYS426=13 and so far belonging to two different clusters: CTS6889+ and CTS6889-. They are:
Z2118
YSC0000082
S1157 (Z2115)
Z2119
but we know that these subclades have all the 10 SNPs from Z2111 to Z2120 (except the two Tuscans of the 1KGP who are Z2120- and are ancestral to all the clusters found so far). I don't know if these other SNPs of the Z series are out of the range tested by Big Y and shouldn't be counted. Anyway the SNPs countable from Big Y are less than the real ones, thus the age to calculate is anyway higher.

Diverclic
04-14-2014, 07:57 AM
Well, I have to admit that I lost contact with the good sources for haplotypes. I used the ysearch 108 haplotypes labeled L51. I only kept those with 67 markers and I ended with 45 haplotypes. half of these have DYS426=13 and half of these have DYS426=12. Working separately these 2 halves I get a TMRCA of 5400 BP and 5600 respectively (with the calculator mentioned above). Not sure how clean this is ; some L23 might be mixed. This is how I get STR TMRCA close to 5700 BP.
Again, as new SNPs will divide L51 we should get older TMRCA estimate by working first each branch and doing an interclade to finally get the TMRCA of all branches. So, even if the calculation above look too old for "pure" L51, I expect L51 age to get older as sequencing will identify new branches.

Rathna
04-14-2014, 08:38 AM
Well, I have to admit that I lost contact with the good sources for haplotypes. I used the ysearch 108 haplotypes labeled L51. I only kept those with 67 markers and I ended with 45 haplotypes. half of these have DYS426=13 and half of these have DYS426=12. Working separately these 2 halves I get a TMRCA of 5400 BP and 5600 respectively (with the calculator mentioned above). Not sure how clean this is ; some L23 might be mixed. This is how I get STR TMRCA close to 5700 BP.
Again, as new SNPs will divide L51 we should get older TMRCA estimate by working first each branch and doing an interclade to finally get the TMRCA of all branches. So, even if the calculation above look too old for "pure" L51, I expect L51 age to get older as sequencing will identify new branches.

Hi Diverclic, it sounds me new that there are R-L51 with DYS426=12. I never saw anyone so far. I'd be glad to see them. Are you sure that they are tested for L51 and negative for the subclades or positive for some SNPs between Z2111 and Z2120?

Rathna
04-14-2014, 10:56 AM
Hi Diverclic, it sounds me new that there are R-L51 with DYS426=12. I never saw anyone so far. I'd be glad to see them. Are you sure that they are tested for L51 and negative for the subclades or positive for some SNPs between Z2111 and Z2120?

1) The R-L51* on Ysearch with DYS426=12 are unreliable
2) The "ht 35 FTDNA project" has only R-L51 with DYS426=13
3) On SemarglDNA, under the SNP CTS6889+, there is only one case of a presumed R-L51 with DYS426=12:
33 52781 R1b-L51 (xP310) [semarglDNA]
12 24 16 10 11-14 12 12 12 14 13 31 18 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 12-15-16-17 11 11 19-23 16 15 18 19 37-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 15 8 13 23 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
but of course isn't an R-L51*:
52781 Tucker Benjamin Tucker, b.1812 PA, d. 1850 Beaver Co., PA R1b1a2a1a1b5b R-L165 M173+, M269+, M343+, M207+, P25+, L51+, L165+, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-

Diverclic
04-14-2014, 01:32 PM
1) The R-L51* on Ysearch with DYS426=12 are unreliable
2) The "ht 35 FTDNA project" has only R-L51 with DYS426=13
3) On SemarglDNA, under the SNP CTS6889+, there is only one case of a presumed R-L51 with DYS426=12:
33 52781 R1b-L51 (xP310) [semarglDNA]
12 24 16 10 11-14 12 12 12 14 13 31 18 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 12-15-16-17 11 11 19-23 16 15 18 19 37-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 15 8 13 23 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
but of course isn't an R-L51*:
52781 Tucker Benjamin Tucker, b.1812 PA, d. 1850 Beaver Co., PA R1b1a2a1a1b5b R-L165 M173+, M269+, M343+, M207+, P25+, L51+, L165+, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-

Well, 2 points : There are L51+ people : ALL L11, and U106 and P312 people ; when you look at L51 MRCA you have to take into account those with L51+ and L11+.
I said that I had suspicion on the ysearch group with DYS426=12 possibly contaminated with L11* people (it's very easy these days to get lost in the nomenclature - I wouldn't blame people who got in the wrong ysearch panel). I, therefore, separated my haplotype analysis and those with DYS426=13 (presumably good ones, I hope you agree) - 22 of the initial 45 - had a TMRCA of 5600 years (BP). It's easy to repeat : go to ysearch and get those 22 haplotypes (in the L51 panel) with 67 markers (at least - some had 111) and DYS426=13 ; get the calculator above and check.

Now I have a question, because I would like to progress. What are, so far, the SNPs of those L51 with DYS426=13 and what are the SNPs of those L51+ L11+ (with DYS426=12) ? (we are looking at SNPs between L51 and L11)

I'll double check my analysis with haplotypes from the ht35 project and the same calculator (see above).
Rathna, I think we can both learn from this exchange.

Rathna
04-14-2014, 02:35 PM
Well, 2 points : There are L51+ people : ALL L11, and U106 and P312 people ; when you look at L51 MRCA you have to take into account those with L51+ and L11+.
I said that I had suspicion on the ysearch group with DYS426=12 possibly contaminated with L11* people (it's very easy these days to get lost in the nomenclature - I wouldn't blame people who got in the wrong ysearch panel). I, therefore, separated my haplotype analysis and those with DYS426=13 (presumably good ones, I hope you agree) - 22 of the initial 45 - had a TMRCA of 5600 years (BP). It's easy to repeat : go to ysearch and get those 22 haplotypes (in the L51 panel) with 67 markers (at least - some had 111) and DYS426=13 ; get the calculator above and check.

Now I have a question, because I would like to progress. What are, so far, the SNPs of those L51 with DYS426=13 and what are the SNPs of those L51+ L11+ (with DYS426=12) ? (we are looking at SNPs between L51 and L11)

I'll double check my analysis with haplotypes from the ht35 project and the same calculator (see above).
Rathna, I think we can both learn from this exchange.

Diverclic, I am always glad to learn from everyone, also because science don't permit deceptions we'd say in Italian and I don't know if this statement is understandable in English, but..
1) I tried only to say that, firstly, we have to be sure that the samples examined belong to our haplogroup, and we can do it now
2) you were certainly aware that a calculation has to be done amongst samples belonging to the same haplotype, possibly chosen at the level of the closest subclade
3) now we know that within the R-L51 (actually R-L51 with the Z snps), there are two groups:
a) the Z2111-Z2119+ but Z2120- (the two Tuscan samples of the 1KGP), but whose we haven't the STRs
b) the Z2111-Z2120+ all the others
c) amongst them there are two other subclades: CTS6889- (Brewerton et alii, whom I named the "Irish cluster") and CTS6889+ (all the others known from Switzerland to the Isles)
You speak of Klyosov's calculator like something reliable. I have exchanged tons of letters with him above all on "Dienekes' Anthropology blog" and I have always said to him that human genes aren't the molecules of a gas (I know he is a great Chemist).
Anyway I'll study again his calculator.

Diverclic
04-14-2014, 03:43 PM
No time to compare calculators today (I want to compare with Marko Heinila mutation rates).

Back to the discussion on L51 tree. OK, here is a tree considering Z2111 as one separate branch below L51/M412 : http://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b/
In addition, you are mentioning 2 other groups : Z2119+ and Z2120+ .Let's work on this only for the moment : Do all these 3 groups (Z2111+, Z2119+ and Z2120+) have DYS426=13 ?
I understand that those L11 are both Z2119- and Z2120- . No shared SNPs (below L51) between all these lineages ?

Rathna
04-14-2014, 04:14 PM
No time to compare calculators today (I want to compare with Marko Heinila mutation rates).

Back to the discussion on L51 tree. OK, here is a tree considering Z2111 as one separate branch below L51/M412 : http://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b/
In addition, you are mentioning 2 other groups : Z2119+ and Z2120+ .Let's work on this only for the moment : Do all these 3 groups (Z2111+, Z2119+ and Z2120+) have DYS426=13 ?
I understand that those L11 are both Z2119- and Z2120- . No shared SNPs (below L51) between all these lineages ?

When I wrote Z2111-Z2119 I of course did mean Z2111/Z2112/Z2113/Z2114/Z2115/Z2116/Z2117/Z2118/Z2119+
It seems that for Z2120 only the two Tuscans of the 1KGP are negative so far and would be the oldest subclade of this which is a paragroup.
The Z2120+ are actually two subclades:
a) CTS6889-
b) CTS6889+
I compared above Brewerton (CTS6889-) and Schumacher (CTS6889+).
Amongst the CTS6889+ Warner and Schumacher are separated from about 40 novel SNPs at the level of Big Y.

As you can see above, there is another Tuscan R-L51/Z2111...Z2119+ in the 1KGP:
R-Z2111PF7589/Z2118 * Z2117 * CTS10379/Z2116 * S1157/Z2115/CTS5981 * Z2113...
HG01066 PUR
NA20785 TSI

NA20537 TSI

Diverclic
04-14-2014, 06:12 PM
Ok, so Z2111 would be the SNP equivalent of DYS426=13
I count 8 SNPs common to the branches Z2119+ and Z2120+ .
Question (again !) : are there 8 SNPs (or more) known between L51 and L11 ?

The point is that in the SNP section of the project ht35new I can see many P310 / L11 with extended SNP results but not a single L51 with such extended results. So, (additional question !) where do you find the information on R-L51 SNPs ?

Rathna
04-14-2014, 08:05 PM
As I have explained many times, also above, and as everyone knows, no R-L51* no R-L11* (like no R-M269* nor R-L23* etc.) does exist, because we have only subclades with their own SNPs.
R-L51 with Z2111 to Z2119 is the only subclade of L51* found so far besides the R-L11*, which doesn't exist per se but only like paragroup with a bush of subclades.
Adrian Ballard (ballardgen) is trying to find L11*, but he is finding a bush of subclades.
Which L11* are you referring to?
We have these SNPs from so long on the same level:
2107 R1b1a2a1a L11/PF6539/S127 1 [1571/1571], L52/PF6541 447 [1338/1339], L151/PF6542 6 [1329/1329], P310/PF6546/S129 945 [2179/2182], PF6543/YSC0000191/YSC0191/S11595 [1311/1311], YSC0000082
R2 [1311/1311] (Cannot resolve: CTS6519/S4247 750 [5/1311], CTS7141 1 [9/1311],
F664 10 [3/1311], F3436/M2297 90 [3/1311], YSC0000239/PF4619 7 [4/1311], Z225/S225/F1343 663 [19/1341], Z229/S359 889 [17/1325]) (Morley's tree, 5).

But we don't know if those SNPs from Z2111 to Z2119 are on the same plane. Already Z2120 has been separated by the two Tuscans of the 1KGP, but we don't know if there will be samples which will break also this series. If we found an R-Z2111* (thus negative for the SNPs from Z2112 to Z2120, put that Z2111 is the most ancient SNP of the series, and it isn't said) we would have found a subclade closer to the L51*.
But I don't know where is the goal of your discourse, because the SNPs of the subclades vary in their number, and should be summed and only the average should be taken in the calculation.

Diverclic
04-14-2014, 11:31 PM
7 SNPs : 2107 , L11/PF6539/S127 , L52/PF6541 , L151/PF6542 , P310/PF6546/S129 , PF6543/YSC0000191/YSC0191/S115951 , YSC0000082
Pretty well in the same range as the 8 SNPs ; that would be in the range of 1000 years from R-L51 to R-L11 , or from R-L51 to R-Z2111 (!) as indeed we don't know the order of the SNPs but we don't care (until some new branch arise).
My discourse is still toward the timing of the whole story. From what's above it looks impossible that L51 is after 5800 - 6000 BP . The L51* clade, per se (those with DYS426=13) is younger, of course, by about 1000 years. This is a typical case where SNPs do help, as compared to STRs only. Haplotype comparison might be more precise. I'll try this precise check.

Added : we DO know these SNPs are on the same plane as both series start with L51 ; that one we are sure is the first one !

Rathna
04-15-2014, 05:12 AM
Diverclic, 2107 isn't an SNP but the line in the Morley's spreadsheet, thus 6 and not 7, but a little changes.

YSC0000082 is also one of the 4 SNPs in common between Warner and Brewerton: if confirmed, it could be at the level of L51*.

Diverclic
04-15-2014, 09:29 AM
Good catch.
Not sure I get the point about YSC0000082. It's also a SNP positive among some guys labeled L51* , correct ? Meaning, Warner and Brewerton have YSC0000082+ but are L11-, L52- , L151- , P310-, PF6543- . If that's so , are Warner and Brewerton Z2111+ ; if yes I don't understand.

Rathna
04-15-2014, 09:57 AM
Good catch.
Not sure I get the point about YSC0000082. It's also a SNP positive among some guys labeled L51* , correct ? Meaning, Warner and Brewerton have YSC0000082+ but are L11-, L52- , L151- , P310-, PF6543- . If that's so , are Warner and Brewerton Z2111+ ; if yes I don't understand.

The explication could be simple: if YSC0000082 is on the same level of L51, all the subclades of L51 have it, both the Z2111+ and the Z2111- from which arose the subclade L11+ which is the ancestress of all the subclades. I have verified that all the subclades of L11+ are also YSC0000082+.

Diverclic
04-15-2014, 11:14 AM
OK, interesting track. We now need to know whether Z2111+ people sequenced are YSC0000082+.

Rathna
04-15-2014, 11:25 AM
OK, interesting track. We now need to know whether Z2111+ people sequenced are YSC0000082+.

We do know: see at #39 the samples posted by Cofgene. The thing to verify is why the others 4 samples (2 P312 and 2 U106) are negative, so it seems from the data, and if YSC0000082 is at the L51 level they shouldn't.

msandford
04-16-2014, 08:53 AM
It seems that these persons are negative for CTS6889, but we should be sure that they have been tested for this sNP:
N66729 William Brereton c 1755. Wybunbury, Cheshire, England R1b1a2a1a R-L51
216052 William Brewerton 1765-1805 Cheshire/Flintshire R1b1a2a1a R-L51
For the surname and the haplotype they seem to belong to the same family:
216052 William Brewerton 1765-1805 Cheshire/Flintshire United Kingdom R1b1a2a1a
13 24 14 11 11-14 13 12 12 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-16-17-17-17-17 11 11 19-23 16 15 17 19 37-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-24 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 21 14 12 11 13 10 11 12 12 N66729 William Brereton c 1755. Wybunbury, Cheshire, En England R1b1a2a1a
13 24 14 11 11-14 13 12 12 14 13 30 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-16-17-17 11 11 19-23 16 15 17 19 36-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-24 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 21 14 12 11 13 10 11 12 12
thus that they are negative is very likable, because we cannot think that the test failed for both.
This would be so far the oldest haplotype of R-L51.


I am the project admin for the Brereton surname group (http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/Brereton/) So I was very interested to see that you picked on two of my project members in your discussion.

I have to admit I am not very advanced in my knowledge of SNP testing and in particular of the details of how to analyse the Big-Y results, which one of my project members has recently received and is looking for help with. I have been searching the web for someone working on samples which are L51+ and P310-, and your discussion here suggests to me I may have found people with good expertise who might have experience to share.

A little bit of background on the Brereton surname and the project:
The Brereton surname arose around 1100 with a well documented medieval family of De Breretons in Cheshire. Even as late as 1881 people bearing this surname were still most numerous in the county of Cheshire, England and the immediately surrounding areas, with a significant off-shoot in the County of Norfolk which is where in the sixteenth century my mother's Brereton ancestral line moved from Cheshire.

We have so far found 3 Breretons/Brewertons with reasonably matching Y67 haplotypes:
B7015 Arthur Brereton c1791 R1b1a2 no SNP testing yet
216052 William Brewerton 1765-1805 Cheshire/Flintshire R1b1a2a1a L51+ P310- Big-y results received
N66729 William Brereton c 1755. Wybunbury, Cheshire, En R1b1a2a1a L51+ Z2113+ P310-

I should explain about the Brewerton: 216052 has run a Brewerton one name study for years and was unable to find a genealogical link with other Brewerton families in Britain. About 2 or 3 years ago a Brewerton dna surname project was started and this showed that Brewerton: 216052 did not have a y match to any of the English Brewerton lines which had been studied. At this point Brewerton: 216052 wondered if there might be y-dna link with Breretons. We got in contact and the Brereton surname project was started last July.

Very quickly we discovered that the 18th century ancestors of both 216052 and N66729 had both been located very near to one another Cheshire/Flintshire. The third close matching halotype, B7015, has an 18th centuryBrereton ancestor in Ireland, but it is well documented that many Breretons went to Ireland from Cheshire, it seems very possible that that all three of these may share a common ancestor from Cheshire.

By contrast the other two Breretons who have tested are markedly different. One is the rarish haplogroup I-L38. The other, my mother's Norfolk Brereton line, is predicted R1b, but the Y37 results have many mismatches so it appears to be separted from the cluster of 3 discussed above.

We would welcome advice on the following testing plan:
B7015: SNP L51, P310, Z2113 in that order of priority?
216052: Z2113 since as far as we can see Big-Y is giving a no call on this
N66729: : nothing suggested at present.

What can we usefully look for in 216052's big-y results?

Thank you for any advice you can give.

morrisondna
04-26-2014, 10:27 PM
FTDNA's new SNP listings show 216052 Brewerton with an incorrect haplogroup. And FTDNA's new haplotree lists haplogroups in shorthand while the ht35 project's SNP reports page lists them in longhand. It makes interpretation between the two difficult.

In fact, both 216052 Brewerton and N66729 Brereton are PF7589+ (Z2118), as are all of the L51xL11 results I have seen. PF7589 is the next defining SNP for L51*. Below that both Brewerton and Brereton share CTS2484 and CTS6397, while another cluster of L51xL11 descendants share CTS6889 (S1161). So for L51xL11, we currently have the following descendancy of SNPs:

L51xL11
---PF7589 and several other SNPs
------CTS 6889-->Westbrooke, Walder, Smith (Schumacher), and others
------CTS2484 and CTS6397-->Brewerton and Brereton
------Miscellaneous others

I have put together a detailed haplotree for thirteen L51+, L11- SNP results, including four Big Y results. I hope to share the tree shortly. If anyone has additional results we can add before I do, please let me know.

Thanks,
Edwin Holcombe (Westbrooke)
Administrator, Westbrook DNA Project

morrisondna
04-27-2014, 06:02 PM
Here is a link to a haplotree of the results I have been able to locate for variants downstream of L51 but with L11- (i.e., L51*):

http://www.geneticousins.com/L51xL11/SNP Tree.pdf

This tree will be revised as additional results become available and as singleton variants can be investigated further. Comments and additions are welcome.

Edwin

morrisondna
04-30-2014, 03:58 AM
Here is a link to a haplotree of the results I have been able to locate for variants downstream of L51 but with L11- (i.e., L51*):

http://www.geneticousins.com/L51xL11/SNP Tree.pdf



A revised L51xL11 SNP Tree has been posted tonight. We now have results included for five Big Y tests and have identified three major subgroupings.

morrisondna
04-30-2014, 11:40 AM
From the latest L51xL11 tree, we can see that Big Y results for Brewerton and Geno 2.0 results for Brereton are not positive for CTS6889 but are positive for PF7589 (Z2118). On the other hand, Big Y results for Westbrooke (my line), Schoenwalder (Walder), Smith (Schumacher), and Cornwell are positive for both PF7589 and CTS6889. These Big Y results confirm an old split between PF7589+, CTS6889+ and PF7589+, CTS6889- discussed earlier on this thread by Rathna and others.

morrisondna
04-30-2014, 12:11 PM
Of the two SNPs that define the Brewerton/Brereton branch, CTS2484 and CTS6397, only CTS6397 is currently offered by FTDNA. Note that FTDNA has Brewerton incorrectly listed as R-V221 as shown in the ht35 project, though he is PF7589+. This probably has something to do with him being CTS6889- and FTDNA not yet recognizing the CTS6889+/- split under PF7589, though it showed up in Geno 2.0 results.

CTS11824 defines a branch that includes Westbrooke and Schoenwalder, but is not on the current FTDNA a la carte SNP order list. Schoenwalder is currently listed as Ungrouped in the HT35 project.

msandford
04-30-2014, 02:55 PM
Thanks for the update. It is good to see the another branch forming.

Brewerton has ordered Z2113 which was a ? in his BigY. Z2113+ has already been found in Brereton. It had been tested for on the basis the recommendation some time ago. I would be interested to where else Z2113+ occurs.

Paulie
04-30-2014, 04:45 PM
Thanks for the updates!

morrisondna
05-01-2014, 12:15 PM
I have posted another update to the L51xL11 SNP Tree this morning. Thanks to much help from smal, I have more detail on the 1000GP results. Several Z-series SNP are listed for all of L51xL11 in the top block based on 1000GP results.

The Puerto Rico 1000GP person has been placed as part of the Westbrook/Schoenwalder group and one of the Tuscan 1000GP persons has been placed as a part of the Brewerton/Brereton group.

Some variants listed on the last version of the tree have been determined by smal's investigations to be ancestral and have been removed from the tree, resulting in further restructuring.

Edwin

www.geneticousins.com/L51xL11/SNP Tree.pdf

morrisondna
05-08-2014, 12:15 PM
The ht35 project has now posted a SNP tree for L51xL11 that basically matches the latest tree I have posted at www.geneticousins.com/L51xL11/SNPTree.pdf

Other than the additional detail on my tree, the main difference I see is that the ht35 project includes Z2120 as possibly immediately above CTS6889, which does not seem possible based on our Big Y results those under CTS6889. The Big Y results for those who are CTS6889+ show three Z2120- (though only one is high confidence) and one unknown. We should be able to clear this up fairly easily with further testing, if need be.

Joe B
05-08-2014, 05:34 PM
The ht35 project has now posted a SNP tree for L51xL11 that basically matches the latest tree I have posted at www.geneticousins.com/L51xL11/SNPTree.pdf

Other than the additional detail on my tree, the main difference I see is that the ht35 project includes Z2120 as possibly immediately above CTS6889, which does not seem possible based on our Big Y results those under CTS6889. The Big Y results for those who are CTS6889+ show three Z2120- (though only one is high confidence) and one unknown. We should be able to clear this up fairly easily with further testing, if need be. Having current information about L51(P312- U106-) was a needed addition to the HT35 project. Your working L51xL11 tree looks great. The tree that is posted on the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (aka ht35 Project) (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx?/publicwebsite.aspx%3Fsection=yresults) has Z2120 with a question mark. Z2120? probably means the author is waiting for clarification. At least that was the case with trees he made for your brother clade R1b-Z2103.

Paulie
05-08-2014, 05:54 PM
Wonderful news. Thanks everyone!

morrisondna
05-09-2014, 01:13 AM
Having current information about L51(P312- U106-) was a needed addition to the HT35 project. Your working L51xL11 tree looks great. The tree that is posted on the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (aka ht35 Project) (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx?/publicwebsite.aspx%3Fsection=yresults) has Z2120 with a question mark. Z2120? probably means the author is waiting for clarification. At least that was the case with trees he made for your brother clade R1b-Z2103.

Z2120 is confusing. If we took 1000GP project results for Z2120 and applied them to the geneticousins.com tree as it currently is, we would put Z2120 in the highest block and expect everyone on the tree to have it. But five L51xL11 Big Y results for Z2120 show no one positive for it and several negatives. We probably need to focus on markers with more consistent results, of which we have plenty.

It looks like the next step in developing the tree is to request individual SNP tests be made available for some of the second and third level SNPs in the tree. We'll need to request these from FTDNA and/or Yseq.

Edwin

morrisondna
05-14-2014, 02:36 AM
I requested CTS6889 from both FTDNA and Yseq. FTDNA shows it as my terminal SNP, but doesn't currently offer a test for it. FTDNA allows project admins to request new SNP tests from the project SNP report page. It might help if other project admins also requested the key SNPs for L51xL11. Yseq accepts requests from anyone.

Joe B
05-14-2014, 04:03 AM
I requested CTS6889 from both FTDNA and Yseq. FTDNA shows it as my terminal SNP, but doesn't currently offer a test for it. FTDNA allows project admins to request new SNP tests from the project SNP report page. It might help if other project admins also requested the key SNPs for L51xL11. Yseq accepts requests from anyone.

What information does FTDNA require for the SNP request form? That's a must have SNP.
Just to be sure, the other R1b-L51 haplotypes that have not tested for CTS6889 do not have the blue add button for ordering CTS6889?


1865

morrisondna
05-14-2014, 11:40 AM
Joe, you bring up a good point. I am CTS6889+ and do not get the blue "add" button on my haplotree results page. I used the link at the bottom to go to the order page for other individual SNPs and CTS6889 is not found using the search function on the SNP order page. I manually searched through to Page 9 of the SNPs, where the other CTS SNPs are listed and it is not there either. But when I go in under another project member's ID, I see CTS6889 CAN be ordered using the blue button on the haplotree page. However, it's still not available to order on that person's a la carte SNP order page.

Bottom line: CTS6889 is available to order from FTDNA. So far, it seems to be the most common branch under PF7589 and CTS7153. I'm going to recruit a couple from my closest STR matches.

morrisondna
05-14-2014, 12:01 PM
As far as the other key markers in the L51xL11 SNP Tree ( www.geneticousins.com/L51xL11/SNPTree.pdf ):

In the highest level block on the SNP Tree, only Z2113 is available to be ordered a la carte at FTDNA.

In the second level, right-hand Brewerton block, only CTS6397 is available.

In the third level block, CTS11824/PF7592 are not listed for a la carte order.

At least this gives us one available SNP in each of the top three blocks. Maybe someone here can offer an opinion as to whether the ones available are sufficient to represent their respective blocks for now. We will still need CTS11824/PF7592.

To request other SNPs be added, FTDNA has a form that basically requests a description of the SNP, its location and placement on the tree, and the reason why it should be added. I don't know the criteria they use in deciding whether to actually add the test or the time involved (backlog) in getting it done.

morrisondna
05-19-2014, 12:14 PM
The L51xL11 SNP Tree shows CTS6889 and CTS2484/CTS6397 as subclades below PF7589/Z2118. We need more testing of CTS6889 and CTS2484/CTS6397 by L11- folks to further develop the tree.

I thought it might be interesting to compare STRs of those who are L11- or who might be L11- who are in the ht35 project or who show up as matches to those in the ht35 project. I have placed a draft spreadsheet here: www.geneticousins.com/L51xL11/L51xL11STRComparison.htm .

We already have Westbrooke and Schoenwalder as CTS11824+. The spreadsheet shows that Land, Whittemore, Turzo, Payne, Greenlaw, Scott, and 97317 may also be candidates.

Likewise, we have Brewerton and Brereton as CTS2484/CTS6397+. The spreadsheet shows that McGeorge and McGeorge-Lee may also be candidates.

Results for the others do not seem as clear.



Edwin

Brewerton1949
05-20-2014, 07:44 PM
Brewerton is positive for Z2113 but still shows as R-V221.

Joe B
05-20-2014, 08:14 PM
Brewerton is positive for Z2113 but still shows as R-V221.
R-V221 is one of those FTDNA mistakes. V221 is in haplogroup A. Infact, you can find a haplotype mislabeled R-V221 instead of A1b1a* --V50+, V82+, V198+, V224+, M23- in the Y-Haplogroup A Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/haplogroup_a/default.aspx). Clearly this is a case where FTDNA should have asked Edwin.

msandford
05-20-2014, 09:43 PM
Thanks for that Joe.
We also have third Brereton with somewhat distant Y-67 matches (GD=5 & GD=6) to Brewerton & Brereton who has ordered Z2113, and we are awaiting his result any day.

morrisondna
05-21-2014, 01:06 AM
Thanks to more good work by smal, the L51xL11 tree has been updated to add PGP77 under CTS11824. Also, under CTS11824, a variant common to HG01066 and Westbrooke forms a new block. This variant (19681861) is negative for PGP77 and not reported for Schoenwalder.

We have to keep in mind that just because a variant is not reported in Big Y, that doesn't mean that it is not present. Further examination of Schoenwalder's data file or additional testing would be necessary to determine that the variant is not present.

www.geneticousins.com/L51xL11/SNPTree.pdf

morrisondna
05-21-2014, 02:16 AM
Thanks for that Joe.
We also have third Brereton with somewhat distant Y-67 matches (GD=5 & GD=6) to Brewerton & Brereton who has ordered Z2113, and we are awaiting his result any day.
In the Westbrook project, we have another set of Big Y results due in mid-June and a CTS6889 SNP test just ordered by a Whittemore who is GD=4 from Westbrook modal at 37 markers.

CTS6889 is available from FTDNA.

CTS11824 is available from Yseq.

Wing Genealogist
06-04-2014, 12:27 AM
We do know: see at #39 the samples posted by Cofgene. The thing to verify is why the others 4 samples (2 P312 and 2 U106) are negative, so it seems from the data, and if YSC0000082 is at the L51 level they shouldn't.

We currently have the Big Y results for 161 individuals who are U106+. While 160 are YSC0000081+ (and likely the other one is a no-call) we have no-one who is YSC0000082+. Thus, it appears YSC0000082 may form a subclade which excludes U106 and likely P312.

Brewerton1949
06-09-2014, 03:45 PM
In response to Brewerton having been given the wrong group, FTDNA are doing the following:

'V221, P310, P311 and PF7589 were ordered on the lab side to validate.'

Since he is already V-221 +, P-310- and P312- I'm not sure why those are being re run unless the sender has got mixed up with what has been previously ordered and newly ordered.

Joe B
06-09-2014, 04:40 PM
In response to Brewerton having been given the wrong group, FTDNA are doing the following:

'V221, P310, P311 and PF7589 were ordered on the lab side to validate.'

Since he is already V-221 +, P-310- and P312- I'm not sure why those are being re run unless the sender has got mixed up with what has been previously ordered and newly ordered.

V221 is in haplogroup A. http://ybrowse.isogg.org/cgi-bin/gb2/gbrowse_details/chrY?ref=ChrY;start=7589303;end=7589303;name=V221; class=Sequence;feature_id=14234;db_id=chrY%3Adatab ase Infact, there is a guy in the Y-Haplogroup A Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/haplogroup_a/default.aspx?section=ycolorized) that is now R-V221. FTDNA's algorithm may be using R-V221 as a default label. R1b-PF7589 seems right for Brewerton.

smal
06-09-2014, 05:00 PM
The problem is in the FTDNA Haplotree. There is the absurd P310>PF6714, V221 branch in it. V221 is SNP which is specific for A1b (P108, V221) and its subclades. BT haplogroup is subclade of A1b. R1b is subclade of BT. This means that all R1b men are positive for V221. Most men on the planet are positive for V221 but it is not the terminal SNP for one of the R1b branches.

msandford
06-09-2014, 05:47 PM
I also thought that everyone descended from the A1b haplogroup would be V221+. However, I have just checked the SNPs showing on the page http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx?section=ysnp
There are 18 V221+ but also 20 v221- !
I have not looked closely at the haplogroups yet, but I did notice that nearly all the V221- were toward the top of the web page, and the v221+ were twoards the bottom of the page, so preumably this correlates with sopmething to do with how the project members are grouped

Joe B
06-09-2014, 05:54 PM
I also thought that everyone descended from the A1b haplogroup would be V221+. However, I have just checked the SNPs showing on the page http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx?section=ysnp
There are 18 V221+ but also 20 v221- !
I have not looked closely at the haplogroups yet, but I did notice that nearly all the V221- were toward the top of the web page, and the v221+ were twoards the bottom of the page, so preumably this correlates with sopmething to do with how the project members are grouped
It's probably because of those inconsistant V221 results that the FTDNA algorithm put V221 in the R haplogroup. Sometimes, humans are needed to add common sense to a computer program. A little ground truthing would have been helpful.

msandford
06-09-2014, 07:12 PM
It's probably because of those inconsistant V221 results that the FTDNA algorithm put V221 the in R haplogroup. Sometimes, humans are needed to add common sense to a computer program. A little ground truthing would have been helpful.
Yes.

I have just looked at the R1B project http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b/default.aspx?section=ysnp
33 V221- . 300 V221+
It may well contain many of those who were in the ht35 project so perhaps the probelm is mainly a select bunch of HT35 and similar people maybe all in one branch who have mutated back from V221+ to V221-.
Or may be it is faulty testing giving a false negative.

morrisondna
06-16-2014, 05:38 PM
Thanks to Big Y matching, I have just added results for 306154 Marsh to the L51xL11 SNP Tree ( www.geneticousins.com/L51xL11/SNPTree.pdf ). Marsh and Cornwell share one novel variant not shared by the others, so this creates a new node on the tree.

Marsh is CTS6889+, but Z2117-, so I have removed Z2117 from the top block of L51xL11 for now.

More to come.

Edwin

morrisondna
06-17-2014, 09:30 PM
I have added 286267 Unknown Surname from Kleinberghofen, Germany, 1722, to the block on the L51xL11 SNP Tree with Cornwell and Marsh. 286267 is also identified in FTDNA Big Y matching as "Axel", but this is not his surname. He is a member of the ht35 project, but is only listed on the SNP page.

Two shared Novel Variants are listed in the block above Cornwell, Marsh, and 286267. One of these variants are shared by Cornwell and Marsh and the other is shared by Cornwell and 286267. This is something of a puzzle---maybe missed or unreliable variants.

Edwin

morrisondna
06-24-2014, 10:50 AM
FTDNA Kit 168028 Turzo has tested CTS6889+ and has been added to the L51xL11 SNP Tree ( www.geneticousins.com/L51xL11/SNPTree.pdf ). Turzo's family is from Szentpeterszeg in Eastern Hungary. It has been speculated that he may descend from "Romanian Saxons" or other Germans who settled at various times in Hungary and neighboring Romania. The name Romanian Saxon is misleading, as it is said that many of these Germans were from the southwest of Germany and spoke Franconian dialects.

Turzo's STR markers indicate he is likely CTS11824+ and therefore most closely connects with Westbrooke and Schoenwalder on the SNP Tree.

msandford
07-06-2014, 04:51 PM
Please see my summary of SNP and STR results at http://dna.brereton.org.uk/z2113.htm

We are seeking some help from experts on further testing for our group of 6, which we suspect may all be spelling variations from a single common ancestor, probably a Brereton, in medieval times.
The Brewerton (kit 216052) did Big-y and other SNP testing. The William Brereton (kit N66729) did Geno 2. Also we there were several hoc Z2113 tests done, becasue we had been advised last year based on a diagram in the HT35 project that this was a good choice of SNP. We are wondering what single SNP tests would be most useful to advise for the 2 new group members who have not yet done SNP tests. Basically we want to check the relationship implied by the STR matches which are shown here http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/brereton/results.

Should we recommend Z2113 since 4 have already tested for this and are +ve, or should we choose PF7589(Z2118) which two have tested and are +ve for? Is anything known yet about which is the most recent SNP, since I assume that would be the most useful test?

Looking at the chart posted above by morrisondna perhaps a test of CTS6397 which I see is available from FTDNA would provide the tightest (ie most recent) check for this group which we suspect are all CTS6889-. So should we get everyone tested for that? We are also hope to get some more STR testing done when there is a sale, to try and get better estimates for the time to MRCA.

I suppose this little group would be usefully explored by getting additional big-Ys done to compare with the Brewerton big-Y which we already have, but that is costly, hence we are wondering what can be done more cheaply.

morrisondna
07-06-2014, 10:14 PM
Michael,

I am not an expert in this field, but will offer some comments.

First, as far as STR results, I'm a believer in shared mutations. Note that the results on Marker 570 result in a grouping which is confirmed by the geographic locations you have for each person in your group. I see the mutations held by only one person in your group as less meaningful, since they do not help you build a descendancy tree.

Second, on SNP testing, I would not recommend CTS6397 since it seems to not be unique to your line. You can do a web search on this SNP and find it elsewhere. CTS2484 may be a better candidate as the possibly the most recent Known SNP in your line. It is not currently available from FTDNA. They might add it upon request, but I feel certain YSEQ would be willing to test for it.

I do think another Big Y, maybe for one of the Irish lines, could be very useful in determining which of the novel variants are pre-surname ones and narrowing down the ones that represent more recent specific branches of the family. This of course means more money, but has the potential for being more useful as well.

Edwin

lgmayka
07-06-2014, 10:37 PM
For comparison, here is R-Z2113 in YFull's haplotree (http://yfull.com/tree/R-Z2111/). Did kit 216052 submit his BAM file to YFull? Even if he doesn't want to pay the $49 for a full professional analysis, YFull will place him on their haplotree, possibly identifying a new subclade at the same time.

morrisondna
07-07-2014, 11:13 AM
I have received Sanger confirmation of CTS11824+(PF7592+) for Westbrooke on the L51xL11 SNP Tree from YSEQ. YSEQ added the test upon my request, and results only took about three weeks. YSEQ is a good option for individual SNP tests in cases where it is possible to get a new DNA sample sent to them. In another project, Thomas Krahn was willing to work up a package of SNPs for us at a discounted price. We are using this to test a cluster of STR matches to see which ones share a relatively short list novel variants identified by Big Y.

butch
07-11-2014, 09:45 PM
Hello all, I am a true neophyte when it come to genetics, but just got involved as an add on to my family genealogy work. I have recently received my Haplogroup tree CTS6889 from FTDNA (Kit 124229. Geno 2 Nat Geo placed me in L51, I forwarded it on to FTDNA for analysis. Thought that was it and then I came across your forum and of all things your discussion re CTS6869. I feel like I have fallen into a (honey pot). It has been fun following your discussions on that branch that it appears I belong to. I can not offer much info but will enjoy seeing what you are doing. FYI I fit right in with Cornwell, Schumacher and Walder and Kleinberhofen.
Thanks to all of you for your efforts , Butch my tree is posted withy the above group now.

Brewerton1949
07-30-2014, 10:10 AM
Have my Fathers Y-full results. Brewerton. They have his terminal snp as Z2111. He is 01827.
They have him grouped with 3 other men yet FTDNA has no matches for him.
Any thoughts?

R-Z2111CTS10379/Z2116 * Z2117 * Z2111 * CTS7153/Z2119 * Z2113...
id:YF01827new
id:YF01800new
id:NA20785TSI
id:HG01066PUR

morrisondna
07-30-2014, 11:22 AM
Have my Fathers Y-full results. Brewerton. They have his terminal snp as Z2111. He is 01827.
They have him grouped with 3 other men yet FTDNA has no matches for him.
Any thoughts?

R-Z2111CTS10379/Z2116 * Z2117 * Z2111 * CTS7153/Z2119 * Z2113...
id:YF01827new
id:YF01800new
id:NA20785TSI
id:HG01066PUR

NA20785 and HG01066 are 1000 Genomes Projects tests that are shown on the L51xL11 SNP Tree at www.geneticousins.com/L51xL11/SNPTree.pdf . They would not show up in the BigY matches, but you can see how they place on the SNP Tree. Both are under Z2111.

Z2111 is in the top block of the same SNP Tree. You can see that the Brewerton branch of the tree has four known SNPs in it that are not shared by others who are not in that block. BigY only reports matches within four Known SNPs. All of the other BigY results on the SNP Tree are CTS6889+ would have at least five Known SNPs difference from Brewerton and would not be reported by FTDNA as BigY matches for Brewerton.

YF01800 may be one of these CTS6889+ persons who has had an analysis done by Y-Full.

morrisondna
07-30-2014, 11:32 AM
I currently have Novel Variant 19681861 shown as a block on the L51xL11 SNP Tree. It is shared by Westbrooke and HG01066. I have been advised by YSEQ that 19681861 is in a range identical to 20497417..20491816. As I understand it, 19681861 cannot be differentiated from the the other location by automatic sequencing equipment. This means that we don't know the actual location of the variant that is reported for that location for Westbrooke and HG01066 and we don't know the actual location tested for those tests that do not report this variant. Therefore I plan to remove this variant from the SNP Tree on the next update.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

morrisondna
07-31-2014, 02:31 PM
I have revised the L51xL11 SNP Tree to be in web page format. The new link is www.geneticousins.com/L51xL11/SNPTree.htm .

With the new tree, I have deleted the 19681861 block under CTS11824 due to inability to do reliable testing for this variant as noted above.

I have also added a block for S1141 between CTS6889 and CTS11824 based on FGC results for 67450 Smith ( Schumacher). 67450 is S1141+ and CTS11824-. It appears that all CTS11824+ folks will also be S1141+, though Big Y does not name it or consistently test for it.

I have also added Amundson, Whittemore, Scott, Lyon, and Finney under CTS6889. STR results are pending for Amundson. Whittemore is a close STR match to Westbrooke and expected to be CTS11824+. Scott is also likely CTS11824+. Lyon and Finney are close STR matches to each other.

CTS11824 is available from both FTDNA and YSEQ. S1141 is not currently available a la carte.

Brewerton1949
08-09-2014, 05:00 PM
My father, David Brewerton,has now been given a new terminal snp R-Y5141.
I have been looking at which group to join him to on Y-full but there does not seem to be a R1b or a U106-
Any thoughts?
Many thanks.

morrisondna
08-10-2014, 12:53 AM
My father, David Brewerton,has now been given a new terminal snp R-Y5141.
I have been looking at which group to join him to on Y-full but there does not seem to be a R1b or a U106-
Any thoughts?
Many thanks.

We need a new group set up. What is the location of Y5141? Is it one of the variants we already have listed?

Edwin

morrisondna
08-10-2014, 01:33 AM
Full Genomes has completed analysis of my Big Y results and provided some interesting comparisons. One of them is my result for S1141+, which was not reported by Big Y. FTDNA Kit 67450 had been discussed as being S1141+ on this thread several months ago. In addition, FGC reports HG01066, PGP77, and Kit 286267 (Unknown of Kleinberghofen, Germany) as S1141+. Based on this, I have added a block for S1141+ below CTS6889 and above CTS11824. The InDel FGS12549 is shared by the same people who are S1141+. See the updated tree at www.geneticousins.com/L51xL11/SNPTree.htm

Kit 286267 (Kleinberghofen) had previously been listed with Kit 231206 Cornwell due to shared variant 118290074. It may well be that Cornwell and Marsh are S1141+ also. This may also be true for most or all other CTS6889+ folks not listed under S1141. Further testing and/or analysis is needed to clear up the exact position for S1141, but it has only been found in people who are CTS6889+.

An updated STR comparison table has been posted at www.geneticousins.com/L51xL11/STRComparison.htm . This comparison has been sorted, grouped, and color-coded to help in selection of SNPs that are more likely to prove positive for future tests.

Brewerton1949
08-10-2014, 02:33 PM
Y-Haplogroup: R-Y5141
Terminal SNP: CTS2484 • CTS3027 • CTS5940 • Y5141 • Y5142 • Y5143 • Y5144 • Y5145 • Y5146 • Y5147 • Y5148 • Y5149 • Y5150 • Y5151
* Based on ISOGG v9.29 at 2 March 2014 and YFull Experimental YTree v2.23
Does this help?

Brewerton1949
08-10-2014, 02:39 PM
Terminal subclade events:
terminal haplogroup of your sample changed from R-Z2111 to R-Y5141

New samples:
new sample YF01818 in subclade R-Y5058

Y-Tree changing:
subclade R1b1a2a1a1b1a renamed to R-Z372
subclade R-Y5058 added to R1b1a2a1a2a with SNPs Y5058, Y5059, Y5060, Y5061, Y5062, Y5063, Y5064 and other 10 SNPs
subclade R-Y5046 added to R1b1a2a1a2f with SNPs Y5046, Y5047, Y5048, Y5049
subclade R-Y5141 added to R-Z2111 with SNPs CTS2484, CTS3027, CTS5940, Y5141, Y5142, Y5143, Y5144 and other 4 SNPs


YFull Experimental YTree v2.23 (2 Samples) YFull Y-SNPs News Project spreadsheet
HomeA0-TA1A1bBTCTCFFGHIJKHIJKIJKKK(xLT)MP-M1205PRR-Y482R1R1bR1b1R-L389R1b1aR1b1a2R1b1a2aR1b1a2a1R-Z2111

R-Y5141Y5141 * Y5142 * Y5143 * Y5144 * Y5145...
id:NA20785TSI
id:YF01827

This is all the info I can see on my fathers results.

morrisondna
08-10-2014, 06:21 PM
Y-Haplogroup: R-Y5141
Terminal SNP: CTS2484 • CTS3027 • CTS5940 • Y5141 • Y5142 • Y5143 • Y5144 • Y5145 • Y5146 • Y5147 • Y5148 • Y5149 • Y5150 • Y5151
* Based on ISOGG v9.29 at 2 March 2014 and YFull Experimental YTree v2.23
Does this help?
I think most of the new Y**** SNPs listed are just names assigned by Y-Full to the private variants from Big Y that we had previously listed on the SNP tree in the CTS2484 block. We'll have to compare the physical location of each one to the locations of the private variants to know if there is anything new.

Y-Full has assigned the first SNP they named (Y5141) as the haplogroup designation, but it is in the same block as CTS2484. We don't know the order in which the listed SNPs occurred at this point.

morrisondna
08-18-2014, 06:51 PM
YSEQ ( www.yseq.net ) has been very responsive to requests for tests of new SNPs and has provided results very quickly---usually in about 9 days after order/receipt of sample. This quick turnaround time is a major plus in helping us make progress in grouping L51xL11 descendants.

I have set up a group at YSEQ for sharing of results for SNPs downstream of L51xL11 ( PF7589/Z2118, CTS6889/S1161, CTS11824/PF7592, CTS2484, and related SNPs; see www.geneticousins.com/L51xL11/SNPTree.htm ). Not all of these SNPs are currently available for testing, but we can request tests be made available as we need them. The L51xL11 group is Group 41.

Several new tests for downstream SNPs were ordered today by folks whose STR results indicate they are in this cluster, so having this group will be a plus for us as we continue to build out our SNP tree and get ISOGG listings for it. (See other thread for the ISOGG approval status.)

Edwin

morrisondna
09-10-2014, 12:52 PM
Hello all, I am a true neophyte when it come to genetics, but just got involved as an add on to my family genealogy work. I have recently received my Haplogroup tree CTS6889 from FTDNA (Kit 124229. Geno 2 Nat Geo placed me in L51, I forwarded it on to FTDNA for analysis. Thought that was it and then I came across your forum and of all things your discussion re CTS6869. I feel like I have fallen into a (honey pot). It has been fun following your discussions on that branch that it appears I belong to. I can not offer much info but will enjoy seeing what you are doing. FYI I fit right in with Cornwell, Schumacher and Walder and Kleinberhofen.
Thanks to all of you for your efforts , Butch my tree is posted withy the above group now.

Butch did a YSEQ CTS11824 test based on his CTS6889 status and close STR matches to Westbrooks and he was found to be CTS11824+. He joins Westbrooke and Showalter (Schoenwalder) as CTS11824+ on the SNP Tree at www.geneticousins.com/L51xL11/SNPTree.htm .

Values of 13, 28 for Markers 389-1 and -2 are proving to be a good indicator of CTS11824+ for those who are CTS6889+.

Edwin

Carbotti
09-13-2015, 08:25 PM
I'm CTS11824+ -->Italy-->Apulia

morrisondna
09-14-2015, 11:45 AM
Carbotti, have you joined the "ht35" project at FTDNA? This would be a good place to compare your STR results to determine the next most likely downstream SNP. Here is a link to the project: https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ame=ycolorized

Also, I have posted a SNP tree with some details of results downstream of CTS11824 at www.geneticousins.com/L51xL11/SNPTree.htm . I look forward to seeing how your results compare to the others. My paternal line is Westbrooke from England, which is also CTS11824+.

Edwin

morrisondna
09-14-2015, 01:13 PM
I'm CTS11824+ -->Italy-->Apulia

Raffaele, I now see your thread at this site: http://www.iagiforum.info/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=20010 . Have you entered results in Ysearch?

Thanks,
Edwin

Carbotti
09-14-2015, 05:59 PM
Raffaele, I now see your thread at this site: http://www.iagiforum.info/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=20010 . Have you entered results in Ysearch?

Thanks,
Edwin

Ysearch ID: 8MHXU-->"Carbotti" --> PANEL 1 (1-12).


YSEQ---> My Allele Results
SampleID Marker+ Chr Start End Allele
2250 CTS11824 ChrY 23296823 23296823 A+
2250 CTS6889 ChrY 17173768 17173768 C+
2250 F167 ChrY 8796086 8796086 A-
2250 L690 ChrY 8796086 8796086 A-
2250 M405 ChrY 8796078 8796078 C-
2250 PF7592 ChrY 23296823 23296823 A+
2250 S1161 ChrY 17173768 17173768 C+
2250 S21 ChrY 8796078 8796078 C-
2250 U106 ChrY 8796078 8796078 C-
2250 YP1121 ChrY 17173738 17173738 C-

morrisondna
09-15-2015, 12:00 AM
Ysearch ID: 8MHXU-->"Carbotti" --> PANEL 1 (1-12).


Thanks very much for the Ysearch ID. With just 12 markers to compare, the STRs only suggest CTS11824. And you have confirmed that. I have placed a working spreadsheet showing the STRs for other CTS11824 people at www.geneticousins.com/L51xL11/L51xL11STRComparison.htm . The spreadsheet shows that DYS389ii = 28 is a key value in identifying CTS11824.

Below CTS11824, SNP A636 is a SNP found among some descendants and can be tested at YSEQ. In parallel with A636, there is a cluster of novel SNPs that another group of descendants share, and one of these could be tested. If you wish to pursue this, you can see which descendants share which of these at www.geneticousins.com/L51xL11/SNPTree.htm . Of course, an NGS test would provide much more complete results.

Carbotti
09-15-2015, 08:26 AM
Thanks morrisondna. look this facebook group R1b - L51/PF7589+ ---> https://www.facebook.com/groups/1586941081565144/

Which his origin and to what likely ancient people more widespread? Normans o ancient German, or ancient Latin?

Ciao

morrisondna
09-15-2015, 11:05 AM
Thanks morrisondna. look this facebook group R1b - L51/PF7589+ ---> https://www.facebook.com/groups/1586941081565144/

Which his origin and to what likely ancient people more widespread? Normans o ancient German, or ancient Latin?

Ciao

Thanks. I will take a look. So far, it looks to me like southern Germany would be the area that most CTS11824 have in common as an ancestral homeland. "Saxon" movement to Britain from Frankish areas for Westbrooke and Berry and maybe the Scottish surnames. Whittemore is another English name that is untested for CTS11824 but probably an offshoot of Westbrooke. Turzo of Hungary is probably CTS11824+ and may be a "Romanian Saxon" due to later German settlement in his home area. Other branches of CTS11824 may have relocated by local migrations or as Viking captives (Amundson?). There is still much to be learned.

Carbotti
09-15-2015, 12:27 PM
The main stages of the migration of the Lombards ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombards ) , coincides with the greater diffusion of L51> CTS6889> CTS11824

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombards#/media/File:Lombard_Migration.jpg

Joe B
09-15-2015, 04:23 PM
Ysearch ID: 8MHXU-->"Carbotti" --> PANEL 1 (1-12).


YSEQ---> My Allele Results
SampleID Marker+ Chr Start End Allele
2250 CTS11824 ChrY 23296823 23296823 A+
2250 CTS6889 ChrY 17173768 17173768 C+
2250 F167 ChrY 8796086 8796086 A-
2250 L690 ChrY 8796086 8796086 A-
2250 M405 ChrY 8796078 8796078 C-
2250 PF7592 ChrY 23296823 23296823 A+
2250 S1161 ChrY 17173768 17173768 C+
2250 S21 ChrY 8796078 8796078 C-
2250 U106 ChrY 8796078 8796078 C-
2250 YP1121 ChrY 17173738 17173738 C-
Your results from YSEQ are noted.
2250 CTS11824 ChrY 23296823 23296823 A+
Please join Group L51xL11 Downstream Alleles Browser at YSEQ so we can see your results. It's very difficult to keep track of your testing without the results being visible. I would also suggest adding your terminal SNP (CTS11824+) to your FTDNA Paternal Ancestor Name information. That will help us keep you in the correct subgroup. Thanks for your testing. Thanks to Edwin too..

morrisondna
09-15-2015, 07:11 PM
The main stages of the migration of the Lombards ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombards ) , coincides with the greater diffusion of L51> CTS6889> CTS11824

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombards#/media/File:Lombard_Migration.jpg

The migration of the Lombards from Scandinavia to Italy is interesting reading. With their migration occurring about 1600 years ago, and with CTS11824 occurring about 4000 years ago, it certainly is possible that CTS11824 somehow came to Italy as part of or as a result of this migration.

The key to placing your line is in finding more recent SNPs that you share with other CTS11824 descendants. The odds favor your results falling into one of the two major SNP groups under CTS11824 as shown on my SNP tree. The A636 group actually contains results for a Sardinian and would be worth a try. However, a positive test for A636 only brings you a few hundred years closer to the present, and so it does not substitute for FGC Elite or Big Y.

Edwin

Carbotti
09-15-2015, 10:49 PM
Your results from YSEQ are noted.
2250 CTS11824 ChrY 23296823 23296823 A+
Please join Group L51xL11 Downstream Alleles Browser at YSEQ so we can see your results. It's very difficult to keep track of your testing without the results being visible. I would also suggest adding your terminal SNP (CTS11824+) to your FTDNA Paternal Ancestor Name information. That will help us keep you in the correct subgroup. Thanks for your testing. Thanks to Edwin too..

I can not find the link Group L51xL11...

Joe B
09-16-2015, 12:35 AM
I can not find the link Group L51xL11...
Try these two links.
https://www.yseq.net/group_browser.php
https://www.yseq.net/group_alleles.php?gid=41

Carbotti
09-16-2015, 12:41 PM
Thanks Joe

"Success!
The customer ID 2250 has just joined the group L51xL11 Downstram
.........
Back to the Group Browser"

Carbotti
09-16-2015, 06:07 PM
Other hypothesis: R1b-CTS6889 / CTS11824 may have arrived in Italy with the waves of immigration of the Latin ?

The ancient Latin they had moved into the Italy from CENTRAL EUROPE before 1000\2000 BC

"The Latins were an Indo-European people who probably migrated into the Italian peninsula during the late Bronze Age (1200–900 BC). Numerous relics of the nomadic steppe culture of the Proto-Indo-Europeans have been discerned in Roman customs. Their language, Latin, belonged to the Italic branch of Indo-European." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latins_(Italic_tribe)#Origins

morrisondna
09-16-2015, 09:04 PM
Other hypothesis: R1b-CTS6889 / CTS11824 may have arrived in Italy with the waves of immigration of the Latin ?

The ancient Latin they had moved into the Italy from CENTRAL EUROPE before 1000\2000 BC

"The Latins were an Indo-European people who probably migrated into the Italian peninsula during the late Bronze Age (1200–900 BC). Numerous relics of the nomadic steppe culture of the Proto-Indo-Europeans have been discerned in Roman customs. Their language, Latin, belonged to the Italic branch of Indo-European." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latins_(Italic_tribe)#Origins

The ht35 project shows L23 with the most recent documented location for an early SNP in our line with the note "Lamnaya, Lopatino II, 3300-2700 BC". I understand that Lopatino II is at Samara Bend on the Volga, which is a long way from Italy and other parts of Europe. That that leaves open possibilities of many alternative migration paths between then and now.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/ht-3-5new/about/background

L23 descendants seem to have spread widely from there, with strong representation in most of Europe. I think the dispersion of surnames under CTS11824 might make the case for it spreading to different parts of Europe through more than one migration path.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamna_culture

Carbotti
09-23-2015, 05:32 AM
I'm A636+ ! (YSEQ)

Raffaele

morrisondna
09-23-2015, 11:13 AM
Raffaele, congratulations on the further progress. A636 is a small group so far. There is a research study result for a Sardinian that is also A636+. PF2013-997/PF2015-989 is shown by smal with 22 SNPs. It will be interesting to compare NGS results with this sample.

Edwin

Carbotti
09-23-2015, 03:39 PM
Raffaele, congratulations on the further progress. A636 is a small group so far. There is a research study result for a Sardinian that is also A636+. PF2013-997/PF2015-989 is shown by smal with 22 SNPs. It will be interesting to compare NGS results with this sample.

Edwin

I noticed that A631 is widespread in the area of "Germanic" (England, Germany, Swiss)

kinman
09-23-2015, 05:44 PM
According to my own timeline, I would say that CTS6889/CTS11824 arose 5000-5200 years ago in present-day Romania (or possibly Hungary?), along with U106 and my own group R-P312. Their L51 ancestors had probably migrated from the Volga region to southern Ukraine about a thousand years earlier (6000-6200 years ago). I discuss this more fully in the "Horse domestication" thread.
However, from Hungary, there are two possible routes. One possibility is that CTS6889/CTS11824 would have gone directly west (south of the Alps) to Italy early on. The other possibility is that they continued with P312 and U106 up the Danube, and then much later entered Italy from the north (with the Latin migration). I suspect it was the latter.
--------------Ken
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The ht35 project shows L23 with the most recent documented location for an early SNP in our line with the note "Lamnaya, Lopatino II, 3300-2700 BC". I understand that Lopatino II is at Samara Bend on the Volga, which is a long way from Italy and other parts of Europe. That that leaves open possibilities of many alternative migration paths between then and now.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/ht-3-5new/about/background

L23 descendants seem to have spread widely from there, with strong representation in most of Europe. I think the dispersion of surnames under CTS11824 might make the case for it spreading to different parts of Europe through more than one migration path.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamna_culture

Carbotti
09-23-2015, 06:03 PM
According to my own timeline, I would say that CTS6889/CTS11824 arose 5000-5200 years ago in present-day Romania (or possibly Hungary?), along with U106 and my own group R-P312. Their L51 ancestors had probably migrated from the Volga region to southern Ukraine about a thousand years earlier (6000-6200 years ago). I discuss this more fully in the "Horse domestication" thread.
However, from Hungary, there are two possible routes. One possibility is that CTS6889/CTS11824 would have gone directly west (south of the Alps) to Italy early on. The other possibility is that they continued with P312 and U106 up the Danube, and then much later entered Italy from the north (with the Latin migration). I suspect it was the latter.
--------------Ken
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

hypothesis: R1b-CTS6889 / CTS11824 may have arrived in Italy with the waves of immigration of the Latin ? ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latins_(Italic_tribe)#Origins )

kinman
09-23-2015, 08:40 PM
Hi again,
I see that the wikipedia article says that the most common explanation for the Latin migration is the second possibility I listed (south of the Alps to the Adriatic). However, I was just looking at your close relatives in (and near) A636, and I see one in Switzerland and another in England (as well others a little further out which are from Germany, Ireland, Scotland, and even Norway).

http://www.geneticousins.com/L51xL11/SNPTree.htm
Therefore I would still be more inclined to believe your line went all the way up the Danube to its headwaters near the Black Forest in southwestern Germany (which is probably also the route my own line took). The Rhine River is just on the other side of the Black Forest, and the Swiss line and your Italian line could turn south while others went north and west to those other countries.
This longer route could help explain why the Latin migration into Italy happened so late in time (about 3000 years ago). But I'm no expert, so I can only offer my personal opinion. We will probably need a lot more testing (on both ancient remains and living descendants) to establish a definite geographic pattern, whether the Latin migration was south of the Alps or north of the Alps.
-----------------Ken
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


hypothesis: R1b-CTS6889 / CTS11824 may have arrived in Italy with the waves of immigration of the Latin ? ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latins_(Italic_tribe)#Origins )

morrisondna
09-23-2015, 08:44 PM
I noticed that A631 is widespread in the area of "Germanic" (England, Germany, Swiss)

Please tell me more. I have only seen it downstream of CTS11824. Thanks.

alan
09-23-2015, 09:09 PM
According to my own timeline, I would say that CTS6889/CTS11824 arose 5000-5200 years ago in present-day Romania (or possibly Hungary?), along with U106 and my own group R-P312. Their L51 ancestors had probably migrated from the Volga region to southern Ukraine about a thousand years earlier (6000-6200 years ago). I discuss this more fully in the "Horse domestication" thread.
However, from Hungary, there are two possible routes. One possibility is that CTS6889/CTS11824 would have gone directly west (south of the Alps) to Italy early on. The other possibility is that they continued with P312 and U106 up the Danube, and then much later entered Italy from the north (with the Latin migration). I suspect it was the latter.
--------------Ken
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Because L23 is much older than Yamnaya and is older even than Repin, I suspect it was wider spread than the sort of middle Don/middle Volga area Repin and Yamnaya arose in. Other than the Caucasian influences several authors I have read trace Repin to Stredny Stog roots. If so then Repin arose from what were the easternmost Sredny Stog groups on the Don.

If this is so, it is important to realise that the L23 line leading to Z2103 may have arisen just from the Stredny Stog middle Don element who were almost a frontier group. The rest of Stedny Stog ran from the Don to the Dnieper. If L23 was a Stedny Stog group then all we have sampled in ancient DNA is the eastern frontier element of it who fed into Repin and then Yamnaya. Rasamakin sees the western Yamnaya groups as partly arising from the late Stog element between the Don and Dnieper. So it is possible that L51 lay in that area.

If I had to guess, the groups with connections with western Yamnaya between the Don and Dnieper and perhaps western Yamnaya itself if it arose partly from local roots as part of a 'horizon' will have less Teal and more ENF. Probably more like Corded Ware than eastern Yamnaya. The very fact we have CW ancient DNA that is R1a dominated and doesnt share the Z2103 link with eastern Yamnaya does seem to support that horizon model to some degree. It all suggests to me that Yamnaya is an important phase in IE history but the crucial IE originates somewhat earlier in a cultures that were ancestral to both Yamnaya and others - probably Sredny Stog. However, Yamnaya as a horizon and its mobility and ability to cross the dry interfluval areas of the steppes could have had an effect of coverging dialects across the steppes that presumably had previously diverged when the Stedny Stog network collapsed after 4000BC. I think the mix of divergence and convergence confounds simple tree models to some degree.

Carbotti
09-25-2015, 07:51 AM
Raffaele, congratulations on the further progress. A636 is a small group so far. There is a research study result for a Sardinian that is also A636+. PF2013-997/PF2015-989 is shown by smal with 22 SNPs. It will be interesting to compare NGS results with this sample.

Edwin

**Hypothesis spread Germanic** In AD 456 the Vandals ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandals ) conquered Sardinia (Sardinian 989 Francalacci ?) "There they built a fleet with which they were able to seize the Balearic Islands, Sardinia, Corsica and western Sicily. "

The Germanic tribes of Northern Europe in the mid-1st century AD. The Vandals/Lugii are depicted in green, in the area of modern Poland.:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Europa_Germanen_50_n_Chr.svg

LANGOBARDEN in Italy : http://digilander.libero.it/Famiglia_Landini/Longobardi25.jpg

Does this map (albo I guess made by Richard Rocca represent L51* frequency (see Poland ): http://secherbernard.blog.free.fr/public/.L51_Map_with_Neolithic_Path_003_m.jpg

morrisondna
09-27-2015, 12:14 AM
Raffaele,

It is also interesting to see this map: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandals#/media/File:Invasions_of_the_Roman_Empire_1.png

It shows a western migration path for the Vandals that takes them very close to Angles and Saxons and Franks on their way to Sardinia. This could help explain the spread of CTS11824 to Britain through Angle and Saxon (and Frankish?) settlement. It also may help explain the presence of CTS11824 in Norway and Switzerland.

However, the CTS11824 people who have done NGS testing are not so closely related to be connected as late as 400 AD, so CTS11824 probably spread much earlier.

Edwin

Carbotti
09-27-2015, 12:14 PM
Edwin,

the oldest CTS6889- have diffused in Tuscany (Italy)...

Carbotti
10-05-2015, 08:39 AM
***Hypothesis spread Italian *** L51/CTS6889+ with an expansion from Italy to Central Europe? ( Ancient Roman DNA ? )

The oldest CTS6889- have diffused in Tuscany (Italy)...

The 'Roman Limes': http://www.rome-roma.net/rome_roma/cartes/empireromain_395.jpg

morrisondna
10-05-2015, 10:35 AM
***Hypothesis spread Italian *** L51/CTS6889+ with an expansion from Italy to Central Europe? ( Ancient Roman DNA ? )

The oldest CTS6889- have diffused in Tuscany (Italy)...

The 'Roman Limes': http://www.rome-roma.net/rome_roma/cartes/empireromain_395.jpg

Any references on this that would explain why they would have wanted to leave Tuscany?

Edwin

Carbotti
11-07-2015, 06:45 AM
I' m A801 ins+

morrisondna
11-07-2015, 02:16 PM
I' m A801 ins+

This INDEL was found by FGC in my Holcombe/Westbrook Big Y results under CTS11824, but was not reported by Big Y. This makes me wonder whether it might be farther upstream than we think. It would only show up on Big Y tests if the location was covered and if the Big Y test was further analyzed by FGC or YFull.

morrisondna
11-07-2015, 02:44 PM
A quick check of results for Berry, Westbrook, Amundson, Strozier and Axel indicates INDEL A801 is at least as old as S1141. Also found in L11 according to FGC, so common to both main branches of L51. I will update my chart.

Edwin

Carbotti
11-09-2015, 07:46 PM
***Hypothesis spread ancient Latin *** In red the possible area of origin of the ancient Italic for the group of Velatice-Baierdorf. ( Kristian Kristiansen-Europe Before History pg.388) 6602

kinman
11-09-2015, 09:50 PM
That is one possibility, since Haplogroup P312 probably gave rise to U152 (and its brother clades) in northeastern Austria (between Vienna and Bratislava?). However, that was about 5000 years ago.

I still think it more likely that much later, once U152 and relatives had reached the Rhine River, some went north, some went west, and some south (into Switzerland and southeastern France). These southern groups could have split into the Lusitanians (of Iberia) and the Italics. This hypothesis would have an early Italian language coming around the west end of the Alps and entered Italy from the northwest.

---------------Ken Kinman

-------------------------------------------------------------------------


***Hypothesis spread ancient Latin *** In red the possible area of origin of the ancient Italic for the group of Velatice-Baierdorf. ( Kristian Kristiansen-Europe Before History pg.388) 6602

Carbotti
11-10-2015, 07:15 PM
That is one possibility, since Haplogroup P312 probably gave rise to U152 (and its brother clades) in northeastern Austria (between Vienna and Bratislava?). However, that was about 5000 years ago.

I still think it more likely that much later, once U152 and relatives had reached the Rhine River, some went north, some went west, and some south (into Switzerland and southeastern France). These southern groups could have split into the Lusitanians (of Iberia) and the Italics. This hypothesis would have an early Italian language coming around the west end of the Alps and entered Italy from the northwest.

---------------Ken Kinman

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ken, we are talking about the spread of CTS11824 in Italy

Carbotti
12-02-2015, 11:42 AM
6782 spread of R1b-L51/PF7589+ in Italy

Carbotti
12-03-2015, 09:15 AM
spread of R1b-L51/PF7589+ in Italy 6792

377 Pistoia (Boattini ) 14 23 14 11 11 14 13 13 12 13 13 29 16 15 19 12 15 13 23 R1b1b2-M269 (xP311)

Carbotti
12-29-2015, 07:05 PM
my big y in summary:

F719+, F82+, L132+, L138+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L265+, L278+, L350+, L389+, L407+, L468+, L470+, L483+, L498+, L500+, L502+, L506+, L51+, L585+, L747+, L752+, L754+, L761+, L768+, L773+, L774+, L779+, L82+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M235+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, M415+, M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P225+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P316+, PAGES00026+, PAGES00081+, PAGES00083+, PF2591+, PF2608+, PF2611+, PF2615+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2749+, PF2770+, PF5869+, PF5871+, PF5882+, PF5886+, PF5888+, PF5953+, PF5956+, PF5957+, PF5964+, PF5965+, PF5982+, CTS11985+, CTS12478+, CTS2664+, CTS3063+, CTS3358+, CTS3575+, CTS3654+, CTS4244+, L51+, CTS6889+, F1209+, F313+, F3692+, PF6246+, PF6249+, PF6250+, PF6263+, PF6270+, PF6271+, PF6272+, PF6409+, PF6425+, PF6430+, PF6432+, PF6438+, PF6443+, PF6463+, PF6494+, PF6495+, PF6498+, PF6500+, PF6506+, PF6507+, PF6509+, V241+, V250+, PF6524+, PF7589+

ma anche PF7590+


Sul PRINT CERTIFICATE V250+ V241+ PF7589+ PF6524+ PF6509+ PF6507+ PF6506+ PF6500+
PF6498+ PF6495+ PF6494+ PF6463+ PF6443+ PF6438+ PF6432+ PF6430+ PF6425+ PF6409+ PF6272+ PF6271
+ PF6270+ PF6263+ PF6250+ PF6249+ PF6246+ PF5982+ PF5965+ PF5964+ PF5957+ PF5956+ PF5953+
PF5888+ PF5886+ PF5882+ PF5871+ PF5869+ PF2770+ PF2749+ PF2748+ PF2747+ PF2615+ PF2611+ PF2608+

Carbotti
01-02-2016, 09:29 AM
"It seems that the subclades of R-L51-PF7589 (R-FGC24138 and R-A613) are unified by the SNP YFC075898 (Y:18290074 (C>T)), found in HG01066 and Carbotti (next to come) beyond YF04234." Gioiello Tognoni

Your opinion?

smal
01-02-2016, 10:07 AM
"It seems that the subclades of R-L51-PF7589 (R-FGC24138 and R-A613) are unified by the SNP YFC075898 (Y:18290074 (C>T)), found in HG01066 and Carbotti (next to come) beyond YF04234." Gioiello Tognoni

Your opinion?

There are no needs to guess. Y:18290074 (C>T) = FGC24146. This marker is available in the R1b-M269 (P312- U106-) project tree.
And your sample is already integrated in this tree. Look at here (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/ht-3-5new/about/results) (pdf (http://www.kumbarov.com/ht35/R1b1a2_ht35_project_tree_25_12_31_2015.pdf)).
If you want to have more deep analysis, please, send me your bam file.

Carbotti
01-02-2016, 10:21 AM
There are no needs to guess. Y:18290074 (C>T) = FGC24146. This marker is available in the R1b-M269 (P312- U106-) project tree.
And your sample is already integrated in this tree. Look at here (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/ht-3-5new/about/results) (pdf (http://www.kumbarov.com/ht35/R1b1a2_ht35_project_tree_25_12_31_2015.pdf)).
If you want to have more deep analysis, please, send me your bam file.

smal, your opinion : my big y ancient people italic?

smal
01-02-2016, 11:47 AM
smal, your opinion : my big y ancient people italic?

As you can see the most close NGS tested sample to you is PF2013-997/PF2015-989 (Sardinian) published by Francalacci et al. 2013, 2015. So it is clear that your PF7590 subclade is presented in Italia. However, we cannot make global conclusions from 2 samples. We need to study a real distribution of the PF7590 SNP.

Carbotti
01-03-2016, 08:27 PM
6782 spread of R1b-L51/PF7589+ in Italy

Spread of R1b-L51/PF7589+ in Italy from Latin-Faliscan group ?

MJost
01-04-2016, 02:42 AM
Spread of R1b-L51/PF7589+ in Italy from Latin-Faliscan group ?Are you Gioiello Tognoni?

MJost

Carbotti
01-04-2016, 08:20 PM
Are you Gioiello Tognoni?

MJost

honor and respect for Gioiello Tognoni.

MJost, your opinion Spread of R1b-L51/PF7589+ in Italy?

MJost
01-05-2016, 04:19 AM
honor and respect for Gioiello Tognoni.

MJost, your opinion Spread of R1b-L51/PF7589+ in Italy?So you are Tognoni!

L51/PF7589 follow trade from the West side of the Black Sea into the Balkins and then into Italy, mostl likely.

MJost

Carbotti
01-05-2016, 10:06 AM
So you are Tognoni!

L51/PF7589 follow trade from the West side of the Black Sea into the Balkins and then into Italy, mostl likely.

MJost

I am not Gioiello Tognoni (R1b1a2-L23-Z2110*/K1a1b1e) but Raffaele Carbotti (R-L51-PF7589): you can see both of us in the “R-M269 (P312- U06-) DNA Project” of FTDNA. Gioiello Tognoni, who wrote here as Rathna, is only a friend of mine, and writes on my blog at FB, R1b-L51-PF7589. About what you say, that R1b-L51 did come from the Western part of the Black Sea, where it hasn’t so far been found, neither in the Kurganists’ places, I think that Gioiello would have many to say, and also about your calculations of the MRCA based upon the STRs…

MJost
01-05-2016, 01:21 PM
I am not Gioiello Tognoni (R1b1a2-L23-Z2110*/K1a1b1e) but Raffaele Carbotti (R-L51-PF7589): you can see both of us in the “R-M269 (P312- U06-) DNA Project” of FTDNA. Gioiello Tognoni, who wrote here as Rathna, is only a friend of mine, and writes on my blog at FB, R1b-L51-PF7589. About what you say, that R1b-L51 did come from the Western part of the Black Sea, where it hasn’t so far been found, neither in the Kurganists’ places, I think that Gioiello would have many to say, and also about your calculations of the MRCA based upon the STRs…

Ok, Raffaele. With no other information shown in your profile, I really thought your were a re-incarnated Gioiello. Please update your profile with YOUR info so I and anyone else can see for ourselves.

As to STRs, only 111 marker haplotypes are closest tool using 50% of a GD back to a MRCA as each IAM STR mutation as a simple rule used cautiously.

Back to your mention of L23, my post in the DF21 section shows a chart you may look at concerning L23's more recent L51 $ Z2103 split.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?170-DF21-(L21-gt-DF13-gt-DF21)-and-Subclades-(DF5-S191-P314-2-S190-etc)&p=130678&viewfull=1#post130678


MJost

Carbotti
01-11-2016, 05:18 PM
"The study of Sardinian Y-DNA by Francalacci et al. (2013) allowed to have a look at the subclades of R1b on this island that has not been settled by the Celts or the Etruscans, nor by an Italic tribe besides the Romans."..."The geographic isolation of Sardinia has left its inhabitants to a large degree unaffected by outside influences, apart from a minority of Phoenician, Roman and Vandal colonisers. ".... "In other words, all the Indo-European R1b in Sardinia (bar a tiny percentage of Germanic R1b brought by the Vandals) can be attributed to the Romans."

Roman domination of Sardinia lasted 694 years, during which it was an important source of grain for the capital. Latin came to be the dominant spoken language of Sardinia during this period, though Roman culture was slower to take hold, and Roman rule was often contested by the inhabitants of Sardinia's mountainous central regions."

Turris Libisonis, the Roman colony of caesarian foundation . This colony, the only one of Roman citizens in the province of “Sardinia”, bore the name of “Iulia”.


This is yet more evidence that PF7589 and PF7590 was probably the dominant Roman lineages?

Carbotti
01-16-2016, 05:12 PM
As you can see the most close NGS tested sample to you is PF2013-997/PF2015-989 (Sardinian) published by Francalacci et al. 2013, 2015. So it is clear that your PF7590 subclade is presented in Italia. However, we cannot make global conclusions from 2 samples. We need to study a real distribution of the PF7590 SNP.

Grazie!

Carbotti
01-31-2016, 11:32 AM
"So there are four major branches from A614: Carbotti/Sardinian [Italian], Showalter (Schoenwalder) [Swiss], Berry [English], and Westbrooke/Holcombe [English]." It seems to me that these data are the demonstration of all theories, of the "Rifugio Italiano" (?)(Gioiello Tognoni) . Even the Swiss and the British have SNPs signed PF, i.e. from Francalacci (Sardinia)

R.Rocca
02-01-2016, 12:51 AM
"So there are four major branches from A614: Carbotti/Sardinian [Italian], Showalter (Schoenwalder) [Swiss], Berry [English], and Westbrooke/Holcombe [English]." It seems to me that these data are the demonstration of all theories, of the "Rifugio Italiano" (?)(Gioiello Tognoni) . Even the Swiss and the British have SNPs signed PF, i.e. from Francalacci (Sardinia)

The Italian Refugium is a fallacy and only lives on in the mind of Gioiello. He has completely ignored everything about ancient DNA and at this point in time, his theory is the laughing stock of internet forums. If his theory is correct, that Italy had no external influences, then how come Otzi and all Remedello samples are missing steppe components EHG and CHG that all modern Italians have a lot of, and why aren't they R1b? In Gioiello's model, he has Italians from Cardial Culture going to Iberia and from there re-expanding with Bell Beaker.... if that is true, how come of the dozens of samples from Cardial or Cardial derived cultures, not as single one is R1b-M269 thus far??? He likes to point to odd-ball modern samples that are V88 that has long been known to be Neolithic, but why doesn't he ever mention that the only modern sample of L23(xL51,Z2103) has been found in Russia, and the only L23(xL51,Z2103) ancient DNA sample has only been found in Russia. And finally, if ancient DNA steppe L23+Z2103+ samples have nothing to do with western L23+L51+ Bell Beaker, then did they text each other to start invading Central Europe at the same exact time in human history? Sorry, but none of what he writes makes even a little bit of sense and it goes completely against what academic papers are saying. Gioiello will be remembered for insulting people more than he will be for anything he's wasted years of his life writing on the internet.

Carbotti
02-01-2016, 01:15 PM
The Italian Refugium is a fallacy and only lives on in the mind of Gioiello. He has completely ignored everything about ancient DNA and at this point in time, his theory is the laughing stock of internet forums. If his theory is correct, that Italy had no external influences, then how come Otzi and all Remedello samples are missing steppe components EHG and CHG that all modern Italians have a lot of, and why aren't they R1b? In Gioiello's model, he has Italians from Cardial Culture going to Iberia and from there re-expanding with Bell Beaker.... if that is true, how come of the dozens of samples from Cardial or Cardial derived cultures, not as single one is R1b-M269 thus far??? He likes to point to odd-ball modern samples that are V88 that has long been known to be Neolithic, but why doesn't he ever mention that the only modern sample of L23(xL51,Z2103) has been found in Russia, and the only L23(xL51,Z2103) ancient DNA sample has only been found in Russia. And finally, if ancient DNA steppe L23+Z2103+ samples have nothing to do with western L23+L51+ Bell Beaker, then did they text each other to start invading Central Europe at the same exact time in human history? Sorry, but none of what he writes makes even a little bit of sense and it goes completely against what academic papers are saying. Gioiello will be remembered for insulting people more than he will be for anything he's wasted years of his life writing on the internet.

Richard A. Rocca your opinion Spread of R1b-L51/PF7589+-->PF7590 in Italy?

R.Rocca
02-01-2016, 01:50 PM
Richard A. Rocca your opinion Spread of R1b-L51/PF7589+-->PF7590 in Italy?

As you know, the L51 splits occur from east to west. So, my best guess is that the L51 split into L11 and PF7590 happened somewhere along the upper Danube during the Copper Age 2800 BC, so anything after that (Bell Beaker & Polada) likely had PF7590 as well.

ADW_1981
04-07-2016, 04:51 PM
I see a new result in the ht35 project from Egypt, plausibly L51? The odd results for L51 that are visible to me: 2 from Yemen, 1 from Palestine, and possibly 1 Egyptian. Go figure.

Carbotti
04-17-2016, 12:07 PM
I see a new result in the ht35 project from Egypt, plausibly L51? The odd results for L51 that are visible to me: 2 from Yemen, 1 from Palestine, and possibly 1 Egyptian. Go figure.

by Gioiello Tognoni: " If they think to this sample from Egypt for having DYS426=13
670 466823 عائلة عاشور - عزبة الغوارنة مركز أبوحماد الشرقية Egypt R-M269
13 24 14 10 11-14 13 12 12 13 15 29
very likely they are wrong for having DYS393=13 and not 12
and above all DYS392=15. Anyway only a SNP test could demonstrate
its haplogroup."

ADW_1981
04-17-2016, 01:48 PM
by Gioiello Tognoni: " If they think to this sample from Egypt for having DYS426=13
670 466823 عائلة عاشور - عزبة الغوارنة مركز أبوحماد الشرقية Egypt R-M269
13 24 14 10 11-14 13 12 12 13 15 29
very likely they are wrong for having DYS393=13 and not 12
and above all DYS392=15. Anyway only a SNP test could demonstrate
its haplogroup."

Yes, Gioiello, only a SNP test can prove (L51 and xL11). Let's not say "very likely they are wrong". That's unfounded.

Carbotti
05-02-2016, 02:23 PM
YFull: 04/26/2016
Subclade R-PF7590 added to R-PF7592
04/26/2016
Terminal haplogroup of sample YF05050 changed from R-PF7592* to R-PF7590"

PF7590 formed 4600 ybp, TMRCA 1500 ybp

Carbotti
07-04-2016, 07:54 PM
R-CTS6889 :

E2689 Pantaleon Αlvarez Spain R-CTS6889 13 25 14 10 11-16 13 12 11 13 13 29 18 9-10 11 11 24 15 19 28 14-15-15-17 10 11 19-23 15 15 19 17 37-38 11 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 20 14 13 11 13 11 11 12 12

469975 Pablo Casanova, b. 1870's? Pinar del Rio? Cuba R-CTS6889 13 24 14 10 11-14 13 12 12 13 13 28 16 9-9 11 11 25 15 19 29 16-17-17-17 11 11 19-23 16 15 18 17 37-40 13 12

Carbotti
07-15-2016, 05:02 PM
B5148 James Henderson, b. 1742 and d. 1832 R1b1a1a2a1... R-CTS6889 13 25 14 10 11 14 13 12 12 12 13 28 17 9 10 11 11 24 15 19 29 15 16 18 18 11 10 19 23 15 15 18 17 38 40 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23 23 15 10 12 12 17 8 12 21 21 14 12 11 13 12 12 12 12

B5148 Reeder R-CTS6889 13 25 14 10 11-14 13 12 12 12 13 28 17 9-10 11 11 24 15 19 29 15-16-18-18 11 10 19-23 15 15 18 17 38-40 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23-23 15 10 12 12 17 8 12 21 21 14 12 11 13 12 12 12 12

Richard Langston Cassady R-CTS6889
Sesso: Maschio
Nascita: 21 Novembre 1892
Crawford County, Arkansas, United States
Morte: 5 Giugno 1947 (54)
Nashville, Howard County, Arkansas, United States
Parenti stretti:
Figlio di William Henry Cassady e Mary (Eleby) Elizabeth Cassady
Marito di Nelia Gertrude Cassady
Padre di <private> Cassady
DNA Markers: R-CTS6889 details
Aggiunto da: Pam Reeder il 8 Luglio 2016---> https://www.geni.com/people/Richard-Cas ... 3781679888

Carbotti
07-17-2016, 10:26 AM
***FTDNA-449895 (Hay) CTS11824***
449895 Hay Johann Simon Hoh b 1682 Germany R-CTS6889 13 24 14 10 11-14 13 12 12 13 13 28 19 9-9 11 11 25 15 19 30 16-16-16-17 11 12 19-23 15 15 18 17 39-40 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 9 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 14 12 11 13 11 11 12 12

Carbotti
08-07-2016, 08:15 PM
YFull: 08/05/2016
New sample YF06434 in subclade R-Y23199
08/05/2016
Subclade R-Y23199 added to R-PF7592

Agamemnon
08-07-2016, 08:19 PM
Gioiello, is that you? :lol:

Carbotti
08-08-2016, 02:47 PM
Hi Agamemnon I am Raffaele Carbotti and not Gioiello Tognoni, who was banned from this blog and not only couldn't have been registered again even though with a false name, but he is forbidden also to read the blog.
Beyond that, he is R1b1a2-L23-Z2110* and I am R1b1a2-L51-PF7589-PF7590. The fact that I am in a subclade with a Sardinian (even though the MRCA at 1500 years may be not true due to the low coverage of the Sardinian samples), but demonstrates that there is an "Italian" cluster under CTS11824/PF7592 as there is now an Iberian cluster Y23199, all separated 4300 years ago as to YFull, i.e. with the Bell Beakers expansion. But Italy gets all the other subclades till the oldest ones and it seems the oldest if we have to believe to the YFull tree.
As to the possible R-L51 in Egypt it could be just an R-L51 of Italian origin, being my region, Apulia, one with the highest presence of this haplogroup (around 4%, one of the highest all over the world) and the Egyptian sample not only has DYS393=13 like me (very rare in R-L51: only Burkholder from Switzerland), but also DYS392=15 could derive from my 14. These are my Y111 from YFull:
YF05050 R-PF7590
13 24 14 10 11 13 13 12 12 13 14 28 18 9 10 11 11 xx 15 19 xx 15 15 17 18 11 11 xx xx 15 14 19 17 xx xx 12 12 11 9 15 17 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 xx xx 14 10 12 xx 16 8 12 24 19 15 xx 10 xx xx 11 12 xx xx 15 9 16 11 27 xx 19 11 11 11 12 10 9 12 12 10 11 11 xx 12 12 xx 13 10 10 21 15 19 15 24 17 12 15 25 12 23 19 11 14 17 9 11 11

Carbotti
08-08-2016, 03:42 PM
R1b-L51 xL11 in Italy: 10835 Fonte: http://www.ethnopedia.info

Carbotti
08-08-2016, 03:50 PM
Gioiello, is that you? :lol:

Agamennone I am Raffaele Carbotti and not Gioiello Tognoni, who was banned from this blog and not only couldn't have been registered again even though with a false name, but he is forbidden also to read the blog.
Beyond that, he is R1b1a2-L23-Z2110* and I am R1b1a2-L51-PF7589-PF7590. The fact that I am in a subclade with a Sardinian (even though the MRCA at 1500 years may be not true due to the low coverage of the Sardinian samples), but demonstrates that there is an "Italian" cluster under CTS11824/PF7592 as there is now an Iberian cluster Y23199, all separated 4300 years ago as to YFull, i.e. with the Bell Beakers expansion. But Italy gets all the other subclades till the oldest ones and it seems the oldest if we have to believe to the YFull tree.
As to the possible R-L51 in Egypt it could be just an R-L51 of Italian origin, being my region, Apulia, one with the highest presence of this haplogroup (around 4%, one of the highest all over the world) and the Egyptian sample not only has DYS393=13 like me (very rare in R-L51: only Burkholder from Switzerland), but also DYS392=15 could derive from my 14. These are my Y111 from YFull:
YF05050 R-PF7590
13 24 14 10 11 13 13 12 12 13 14 28 18 9 10 11 11 xx 15 19 xx 15 15 17 18 11 11 xx xx 15 14 19 17 xx xx 12 12 11 9 15 17 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 xx xx 14 10 12 xx 16 8 12 24 19 15 xx 10 xx xx 11 12 xx xx 15 9 16 11 27 xx 19 11 11 11 12 10 9 12 12 10 11 11 xx 12 12 xx 13 10 10 21 15 19 15 24 17 12 15 25 12 23 19 11 14 17 9 11 11

I apologize, but I was wrong in my analysis. DYS393=13 is modal in R1b1a2-L51-PF7589, and Burkholder is R-L277, thus as not said, but I have the rare mutation in DYF395S1b from 16 to 17 and I could be linked with these samples:
41519 Robert Hooks b. 1773 Unknown Origin R-L51
13 23 14 11 13-14 13 12 12 13 13 29 17 9-10 10 11 27 15 19 29 14-16-17-18 11 9 19-23 15 15 19 17 34-39 12 12 11 9 15-17 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 17 8 12 22 20 15 12 11 13 11 11 12 12

86538 Patrick Hooks - 1790 Unknown Origin R-L51
13 23 14 11 13-14 13 12 12 13 13 29 17 9-10 10 11 27 15 19 29 14-16-17-18 11 9 19-23 15 15 19 17 34-39 12 12 11 9 15-17 8 10 10 8 9 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 20 15 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
67450 Jimmie C. Schumacher, Chicago, IL, US. (b. ~1938) Unknown Origin R-CTS6889
13 24 14 11 13-14 13 12 12 13 13 30 17 9-10 11 11 27 15 19 29 15-16-17-18 10 9 19-23 16 15 19 17 35-39 12 12 11 9 15-17 8 10 10 8 9 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 20 16 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 35 14 10 16 12 28 26 19 10 11 13 12 10 9 12 12 10 11 11 30 12 13 24 14 10 10 20 15 19 12 24 17 12 15 24 12 23 19 11 14 17 9 11 11
7518 England R-M269
13 24 14 11 13-14 13 12 12 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 27 15 19 29 15-16-17-17 11 9 19-23 16 15 19 17 35-38 12 12 11 9 15-17 8 10 10 8 9 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 20 15 12 11 13 11 11 12 12

Very likely Schumacher (Malysz) is linked to the other samples but not to me. They are R1b1a2-L51-PF7589-CTS6889-S1141-FGC34138-S10037.

Agamemnon
08-08-2016, 03:51 PM
I didn't know you were a Rome II Total War fan, Gioiello ;)

Carbotti
08-08-2016, 04:36 PM
I didn't know you were a Rome II Total War fan, Gioiello ;)

I'm a fan of Caesar, Augustus and Hadrian, my ancestors.

My facebook profile https://www.facebook.com/raffaele.carbotti

Agamemnon, you're obsessed by Gioiello

Raffaele Carbotti ;)

Agamemnon
08-10-2016, 12:32 PM
I'm a fan of Caesar, Augustus and Hadrian, my ancestors.

My facebook profile https://www.facebook.com/raffaele.carbotti

Agamemnon, you're obsessed by Gioello

Raffaele Carbotti ;)

And I'm a fan of Shim'on Bar Giora, Lukuas and Shim'on Bar Kokhba. Glad to make your acquaintance Raffaele :)

Paulie
08-18-2017, 07:37 PM
Kicking this back up as I just confirmed kit 67450 is Smith (Schumacher is adopted name). Not that it's helpful but helps document the surname with confirmed paper trail. :-)

Grossvater
10-01-2018, 05:45 PM
I just waded through this whole thread trying to find out more about R1b-L51. This very morning, I learned that my wife's great-great grandfather carried this haplogroup (barring any NPEs). He descends directly from Capitan Anton Garcia de Reyna (b. abt 1579), an early Iberian settler of Nuevo Leon in Mexico. His grandfather may have come from Alcala de Guadaira, in Southern Spain near Sevilla.

Am I correct in assuming that there is particularly Spanish branch of this haplogroup? What are the latest theories on how it got to Spain in the first place?

Joe B
10-01-2018, 06:24 PM
I just waded through this whole thread trying to find out more about R1b-L51. This very morning, I learned that my wife's great-great grandfather carried this haplogroup (barring any NPEs). He descends directly from Capitan Anton Garcia de Reyna (b. abt 1579), an early Iberian settler of Nuevo Leon in Mexico. His grandfather may have come from Alcala de Guadaira, in Southern Spain near Sevilla.

Am I correct in assuming that there is particularly Spanish branch of this haplogroup? What are the latest theories on how it got to Spain in the first place? He probably belongs to the R1b-Z2118/PF7589 haplogroup. There are indeed a couple branches within this haplogroup that have Latin American kits.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2118/
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R;name=R-PF7589
What kind of Y DNA testing got him to R1b-L51? Need to confirm he is tested R1b-L51(L52-, L11-, P310-, P311-). You know the drill.

Grossvater
10-01-2018, 07:53 PM
He probably belongs to the R1b-Z2118/PF7589 haplogroup. There are indeed a couple branches within this haplogroup that have Latin American kits.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2118/
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R;name=R-PF7589
What kind of Y DNA testing got him to R1b-L51? Need to confirm he is tested R1b-L51(L52-, L11-, P310-, P311-). You know the drill.

Unfortunately, I don't know any of the details. My wife's cousin was tested through 23andMe and that's the Y-DNA haplogroup they assigned him.

ArmandoR1b
10-04-2018, 06:31 PM
Unfortunately, I don't know any of the details. My wife's cousin was tested through 23andMe and that's the Y-DNA haplogroup they assigned him.

The vast majority of people that get R1b-L51 at 23andme were tested by the v4 chip and weren't tested for the following SNPs - L52, L151, L11, P310, P311, P312, and DF27. He was tested for U106, L21, and U152 and was negative for those. It is a minority of R-L51 positive people that are also negative for all of those other SNPs especially if the direct paternal line is from Spain. He needs to get a R1b-M343 Orientation Panel at Yseq or BigY at FTDNA to determine which subclade downstream from L51 that he belongs to. He can verify which chip he was tested by if he goes to https://you.23andme.com/user/ and looks for the version next to Genotyping Chip Version.

Grossvater
10-04-2018, 10:54 PM
The vast majority of people that get R1b-L51 at 23andme were tested by the v4 chip and weren't tested for the following SNPs - L52, L151, L11, P310, P311, P312, and DF27. He was tested for U106, L21, and U152 and was negative for those. It is a minority of R-L51 positive people that are also negative for all of those other SNPs especially if the direct paternal line is from Spain. He needs to get a R1b-M343 Orientation Panel at Yseq or BigY at FTDNA to determine which subclade downstream from L51 that he belongs to. He can verify which chip he was tested by if he goes to https://you.23andme.com/user/ and looks for the version next to Genotyping Chip Version.

I am very grateful that you clarified that for me. I am still pretty dumb about this stuff even after looking at various DNA results the last few years. Is my impression correct that R1b-L51 is a mutation that is quite ancient and that the other major mutations U106, L21, and U152 are downstream from it? As these are the ones that 23andMe tests for, if one has a different downstream lineage, they get assigned the ancient mutation of R1b-L51? My wife's cousin only recently tested with 23andMe...I suspect it was in the last half of 2017. Were they already using the new chip?

ArmandoR1b
10-05-2018, 09:50 PM
I am very grateful that you clarified that for me. I am still pretty dumb about this stuff even after looking at various DNA results the last few years. Is my impression correct that R1b-L51 is a mutation that is quite ancient and that the other major mutations U106, L21, and U152 are downstream from it? As these are the ones that 23andMe tests for, if one has a different downstream lineage, they get assigned the ancient mutation of R1b-L51? My wife's cousin only recently tested with 23andMe...I suspect it was in the last half of 2017. Were they already using the new chip?

Yes, the other major mutations U106, L21, and U152 are downstream from R1b-L51 and so are L52, L151, L11, P310, P311, P312, and DF27. All of those SNPs are ancient. DF27 is the one that is most common, but not exclusive, to the Iberian Peninsula.

A suspicion of him testing in the last half of 2017 isn't good enough to determine which chip he was tested by. I very very strongly suspect that he was tested with the v4 chip. It's best to ask him to verify which chip he was tested with by going to https://you.23andme.com/user/ and looking for the version next to Genotyping Chip Version.

Carbotti
11-22-2020, 09:57 AM
R-L51-PF7589 (YDNA) Latin/Roman samples tested

R-L51-PF7589-CTS6889 is 9309_Oss. Olmo di Nogara (ca. 1400-1200 BC) Terramare Culture.
~48% Italian BB; ~47% Remedello; ~5% Minoan_Lassithi

R1021 700 - 600 BCE Iron Age B Iron/Republic Latini U4a1a R-PF7589 Boville Ernica Male 246980 0.56 No 0.01 0.00564 13.11% 39.67 Boville Ernica T. 1. L. petrous, 2.5.18 Petrous 30-min (partial)

R111 0 - 200 CE Imperial Rome Imperial Roman Imperial H R-PF7589
Via Paisiello (Necropoli Salaria)
Male 243940 0.59 No 0.01 0.00556 9.60% 34.40 burial 45 Petrous 30-min (partial)

R61 1280 - 1430 calCE Late Medieval Medieval/EarlyModern HV R-PF7589 Villa Magna Male 399332 1.45
*same stratigraphic unit as R54
0.01 0.00560 8.24% 62.80 VM 07; BII; 4067 Petrous 30-min (partial)