PDA

View Full Version : K1b1b mtDNA per 23&me - Ancient Irish/Welsh/Briton/Scot



PapaJoe
05-06-2021, 11:56 PM
According to what little info is available, I'm thinking K1b1b is a pre-Celtic, pre-Anglo population, possibly indigenous to the British Isles and Ireland.

My modern DNA matches show 49.3% chance of having relatives in the Ireland/Britain, most likely Ireland.

My Mom (and grandma) had black hair and a dark complexions. This makes me think that she was possibly "Black" Irish, which I take to mean the indigenous pre-Celtic population. I've heard speculation that early inhabitants may have migrated from Spain, but there is no DNA connection that I can tell.

Anyone else know anything about K1b1b or have different opinions on the origin? The best age I can find for K1b1b is 12,000+- ybp. FWIW, I think 12,000 ypb might be a bit generous. But how does a maternal DNA line last for 12,000 years in Ireland with an additional 400 years in America without mutating into a sub-group?

Thoughts, comments?

Thanks,
Joe

J1 DYS388=13
05-07-2021, 07:50 AM
23andMe doesn't always give results in complete detail. I suggest you try this free tool: https://dna.jameslick.com/mthap/23andMe.html

PapaJoe
05-07-2021, 02:24 PM
Thanks

I tried the Slick tool and it confirmed K1b1b based on my 23&me data. I do find it weird that there is 12,000 mtDNA still running around, especially since my Mom's side of the family came from Great Britain to the USA 400 years ago. Even weirder, the autosomal map shows many close relatives in British Isles in the last 200 years.

ETA: Added rest of mthap output since y'all seem to understand what it all means.

mthap version 0.19b (2015-05-11); haplogroup data version PhyloTree
Build 17 (2016-02-18) +mods
raw data source genome_.txt
Found 4157 markers at 2339 positions covering 14.1% of mtDNA.

*Markers found (shown as differences to rCRS):*
*HVR2:* 65D 73G 191D 263G 299I 459D
*CR:* 1189C 1438G 1811G 2074I 2156D 2405D 2706G 2758A 3307D 3480G 4317I
5537D 5752D 6053T 7028T 7471D 8164T 8281D 8286D 8860G 9181G 9698C 9962A
10289G 10398G 10550G 11299C 11467G 11719A 12308G 12372A 14167T 14482T 15946T
*HVR1:*

*Best mtDNA Haplogroup Matches:*

*1) K1b1b*

*Defining Markers for haplogroup K1b1b:*
*HVR2: 73G 263G
CR: 750G 1189C 1438G 1811G 2706G 3480G 4769G 5913A 6053T 7028T 8164T
8860G 9055A 9698C 9962A 10289G 10398G 10550G 11299C 11467G 11719A 12308G
12372A 14167T 14766T 14798C 15326G 15946T
HVR1: (16093C) 16224C 16311C *

*Marker path from rCRS to haplogroup K1b1b (plus extra markers):
H2a2a1(rCRS) ⇨ 263G ⇨ H2a2a ⇨ 8860G 15326G ⇨ H2a2 ⇨ 750G ⇨ H2a ⇨ 4769G ⇨
H2 ⇨ 1438G ⇨ H ⇨ 2706G 7028T ⇨ HV ⇨ 14766T ⇨ R0 ⇨ 73G 11719A ⇨ R ⇨
11467G 12308G 12372A ⇨ U ⇨ 1811G ⇨ U2'3'4'7'8'9 ⇨ 9698C ⇨ U8 ⇨ 3480G ⇨
U8b'c ⇨ 9055A 14167T ⇨ U8b ⇨ 10550G 11299C 14798C 16224C 16311C ⇨ K ⇨
1189C 10398G ⇨ K1 ⇨ 5913A ⇨ K1b ⇨ 9962A 10289G 15946T ⇨ K1b1 ⇨ (16093C)
⇨ K1b1((T16093C)) ⇨ 6053T 8164T ⇨ K1b1b ⇨ 65D 191D 299I 459D 2074I 2156D
2405D 2758A 3307D 4317I 5537D 5752D 7471D 8281D 8286D 9181G 14482T*

*Imperfect Match.* Your results contained differences with this haplogroup:
*Matches(23): 73G 263G 1189C 1438G 1811G 2706G 3480G 6053T 7028T 8164T
8860G 9698C 9962A 10289G 10398G 10550G 11299C 11467G 11719A 12308G
12372A 14167T 15946T*
*Extras(17): 65D 191D 299I 459D 2074I 2156D 2405D 2758A 3307D 4317I
5537D 5752D 7471D 8281D 8286D 9181G 14482T*
*Untested(9): 750 4769 5913 9055 14766 14798 15326 16093 16224 16311*


*2) K1b1b1*

*Defining Markers for haplogroup K1b1b1:*
*HVR2: 73G 263G
CR: 750G 1189C 1438G 1811G 2706G 3480G 4769G 5913A 6053T 7028T 8164T
8860G 9055A 9698C 9962A 10289G 10398G 10550G 11299C 11467G 11719A 12308G
12372A 14063C 14167T 14384A 14766T 14798C 15326G 15946T
HVR1: (16093C) 16224C 16311C *

*Marker path from rCRS to haplogroup K1b1b1 (plus extra markers):
H2a2a1(rCRS) ⇨ 263G ⇨ H2a2a ⇨ 8860G 15326G ⇨ H2a2 ⇨ 750G ⇨ H2a ⇨ 4769G ⇨
H2 ⇨ 1438G ⇨ H ⇨ 2706G 7028T ⇨ HV ⇨ 14766T ⇨ R0 ⇨ 73G 11719A ⇨ R ⇨
11467G 12308G 12372A ⇨ U ⇨ 1811G ⇨ U2'3'4'7'8'9 ⇨ 9698C ⇨ U8 ⇨ 3480G ⇨
U8b'c ⇨ 9055A 14167T ⇨ U8b ⇨ 10550G 11299C 14798C 16224C 16311C ⇨ K ⇨
1189C 10398G ⇨ K1 ⇨ 5913A ⇨ K1b ⇨ 9962A 10289G 15946T ⇨ K1b1 ⇨ (16093C)
⇨ K1b1((T16093C)) ⇨ 6053T 8164T ⇨ K1b1b ⇨ 14063C 14384A ⇨ K1b1b1 ⇨ 65D
191D 299I 459D 2074I 2156D 2405D 2758A 3307D 4317I 5537D 5752D 7471D
8281D 8286D 9181G 14482T*

*Imperfect Match.* Your results contained differences with this haplogroup:
*Matches(23): 73G 263G 1189C 1438G 1811G 2706G 3480G 6053T 7028T 8164T
8860G 9698C 9962A 10289G 10398G 10550G 11299C 11467G 11719A 12308G
12372A 14167T 15946T*
*Extras(17): 65D 191D 299I 459D 2074I 2156D 2405D 2758A 3307D 4317I
5537D 5752D 7471D 8281D 8286D 9181G 14482T*
*Untested(11): 750 4769 5913 9055 14063 14384 14766 14798 15326 16093
16224 16311*


*3) K1b1*

*Defining Markers for haplogroup K1b1:*
*HVR2: 73G 263G
CR: 750G 1189C 1438G 1811G 2706G 3480G 4769G 5913A 7028T 8860G 9055A
9698C 9962A 10289G 10398G 10550G 11299C 11467G 11719A 12308G 12372A
14167T 14766T 14798C 15326G 15946T
HVR1: 16224C 16311C *

*Marker path from rCRS to haplogroup K1b1 (plus extra markers):
H2a2a1(rCRS) ⇨ 263G ⇨ H2a2a ⇨ 8860G 15326G ⇨ H2a2 ⇨ 750G ⇨ H2a ⇨ 4769G ⇨
H2 ⇨ 1438G ⇨ H ⇨ 2706G 7028T ⇨ HV ⇨ 14766T ⇨ R0 ⇨ 73G 11719A ⇨ R ⇨
11467G 12308G 12372A ⇨ U ⇨ 1811G ⇨ U2'3'4'7'8'9 ⇨ 9698C ⇨ U8 ⇨ 3480G ⇨
U8b'c ⇨ 9055A 14167T ⇨ U8b ⇨ 10550G 11299C 14798C 16224C 16311C ⇨ K ⇨
1189C 10398G ⇨ K1 ⇨ 5913A ⇨ K1b ⇨ 9962A 10289G 15946T ⇨ K1b1 ⇨ 65D 191D
299I 459D 2074I 2156D 2405D 2758A 3307D 4317I 5537D 5752D 6053T 7471D
8164T 8281D 8286D 9181G 14482T*

*Imperfect Match.* Your results contained differences with this haplogroup:
*Matches(21): 73G 263G 1189C 1438G 1811G 2706G 3480G 7028T 8860G 9698C
9962A 10289G 10398G 10550G 11299C 11467G 11719A 12308G 12372A 14167T 15946T*
*Extras(19): 65D 191D 299I 459D 2074I 2156D 2405D 2758A 3307D 4317I
5537D 5752D 6053T 7471D 8164T 8281D 8286D 9181G 14482T*
*Untested(9): 750 4769 5913 9055 14766 14798 15326 16224 16311*


*3) K1b1((T16093C))*

*Defining Markers for haplogroup K1b1((T16093C)):*
*HVR2: 73G 263G
CR: 750G 1189C 1438G 1811G 2706G 3480G 4769G 5913A 7028T 8860G 9055A
9698C 9962A 10289G 10398G 10550G 11299C 11467G 11719A 12308G 12372A
14167T 14766T 14798C 15326G 15946T
HVR1: (16093C) 16224C 16311C *

*Marker path from rCRS to haplogroup K1b1((T16093C)) (plus extra markers):
H2a2a1(rCRS) ⇨ 263G ⇨ H2a2a ⇨ 8860G 15326G ⇨ H2a2 ⇨ 750G ⇨ H2a ⇨ 4769G ⇨
H2 ⇨ 1438G ⇨ H ⇨ 2706G 7028T ⇨ HV ⇨ 14766T ⇨ R0 ⇨ 73G 11719A ⇨ R ⇨
11467G 12308G 12372A ⇨ U ⇨ 1811G ⇨ U2'3'4'7'8'9 ⇨ 9698C ⇨ U8 ⇨ 3480G ⇨
U8b'c ⇨ 9055A 14167T ⇨ U8b ⇨ 10550G 11299C 14798C 16224C 16311C ⇨ K ⇨
1189C 10398G ⇨ K1 ⇨ 5913A ⇨ K1b ⇨ 9962A 10289G 15946T ⇨ K1b1 ⇨ (16093C)
⇨ K1b1((T16093C)) ⇨ 65D 191D 299I 459D 2074I 2156D 2405D 2758A 3307D
4317I 5537D 5752D 6053T 7471D 8164T 8281D 8286D 9181G 14482T*

*Imperfect Match.* Your results contained differences with this haplogroup:
*Matches(21): 73G 263G 1189C 1438G 1811G 2706G 3480G 7028T 8860G 9698C
9962A 10289G 10398G 10550G 11299C 11467G 11719A 12308G 12372A 14167T 15946T*
*Extras(19): 65D 191D 299I 459D 2074I 2156D 2405D 2758A 3307D 4317I
5537D 5752D 6053T 7471D 8164T 8281D 8286D 9181G 14482T*
*Untested(9): 750 4769 5913 9055 14766 14798 15326 16093 16224 16311*

J1 DYS388=13
05-07-2021, 03:04 PM
In theory, you might belong to an as-yet undiscovered subgroup. There are of course two known subgroups. As for K1b1b, four people with that type are on the Facebook Haplogroup K group. Two of them have mentioned where their direct maternal line is from. One from Denmark, the other from Sweden. So that pre-Celtic connection is probably not going to work out for you.

J1 DYS388=13
05-07-2021, 03:18 PM
OK, now that you have posted more of the James Lick mtDNA results, I see that 23andMe did not test for the markers of K1b1b1. So you could belong to that more common subgroup. But even if you do, there's no evidence to put you in pre-Celtic Britain or Ireland. https://haplotree.info/maps/ancient_dna/index.php?searchcolumn=mtDNA_haplogroup&searchfor=K1b1b1&ybp=500000,0

PapaJoe
05-07-2021, 06:36 PM
Thanks!

Please forgive the beginner questions, but if the Lick results show markers for K1b1b1, and Lick says K1b1b1 is the second most likely match, how can you tell that 23&me didn't test for K1b1b1 (was it due to k1b1b1 markers being listed in the untested list?)

Thanks for the haplotree info map. All of those matches are for 'K1b1b1', so there are no ancient samples for 'K1b1b' at all as far as I can tell.

But how many mutations are needed before naming a new mtDNA haplogroup? How many K1b1b mutations were needed before K1b1b became K1b1b1? Is there a tutorial on how the groups get named?

And, can I assume that all cases of K1b1b1 are descended from K1b1b ancestors originally? I'm not sure how much can be inferred based on the naming.

If I look on the haplotree map for 'K1b', I do see two examples of K1b1a show up in NW Ireland which is where my autosomal DNA shows the greatest likelihood of having close relatives. One is from 5500 ypb and the other 4300 ybp in North West Ireland. I'm thinking that might be my closest likelihood of a near match. There are others

Is there a way I can tell how close K1b1b and K1b1a might be related?

I don't object to being Celt, but I'm not sure when they first showed up. Our family phenotype has always had dark haired swarthy women. I also see a K1b1 from France 6500 ypb. There is also a K1b1b1 in Turkey from 8400 ybp, but I'm not sure what constitutes Celt and what doesn't. The approximate dating of the Irish samples would certainly pre-date Anglo-Saxons. The BBC web article "DNA study shows Celts are not a unique genetic group" shows a lot of ancient DNA in the British Isles with less admixture from invaders than one might think.

However, a web article on the Independent "Celts descended from Spanish fishermen, study finds" actually agrees with other things I've read saying that the indigenous Irish came from Spain, and given that, I have to change my definition of Celt. I was thinking Celts were from Northern/Central Europe. My Mom certainly could have passed for Spanish. And the Basque would account for the associated red hair among those Celts that have it.

And last simple question of the day, Is it possible that my K1b1b* moved to the USA 400 years ago and no longer exists in Ireland, or that maybe the US Branch should be K1b1b2? I have a sister and a whole pile of cousins with the identical K1b1b mtDNA in the US.

Thanks again!

J1 DYS388=13
05-08-2021, 05:10 AM
Right, your untested list includes the markers for K1b1b1 (T14063C and G14384A).

You can see an estimate of when two branches split (TMRCA) on this tree: https://www.yfull.com/mtree/K1/

MacUalraig
05-08-2021, 08:23 AM
Thanks!

Please forgive the beginner questions, but if the Lick results show markers for K1b1b1, and Lick says K1b1b1 is the second most likely match, how can you tell that 23&me didn't test for K1b1b1 (was it due to k1b1b1 markers being listed in the untested list?)

Thanks for the haplotree info map. All of those matches are for 'K1b1b1', so there are no ancient samples for 'K1b1b' at all as far as I can tell.

But how many mutations are needed before naming a new mtDNA haplogroup? How many K1b1b mutations were needed before K1b1b became K1b1b1? Is there a tutorial on how the groups get named?

And, can I assume that all cases of K1b1b1 are descended from K1b1b ancestors originally? I'm not sure how much can be inferred based on the naming.

If I look on the haplotree map for 'K1b', I do see two examples of K1b1a show up in NW Ireland which is where my autosomal DNA shows the greatest likelihood of having close relatives. One is from 5500 ypb and the other 4300 ybp in North West Ireland. I'm thinking that might be my closest likelihood of a near match. There are others

Is there a way I can tell how close K1b1b and K1b1a might be related?

I don't object to being Celt, but I'm not sure when they first showed up. Our family phenotype has always had dark haired swarthy women. I also see a K1b1 from France 6500 ypb. There is also a K1b1b1 in Turkey from 8400 ybp, but I'm not sure what constitutes Celt and what doesn't. The approximate dating of the Irish samples would certainly pre-date Anglo-Saxons. The BBC web article "DNA study shows Celts are not a unique genetic group" shows a lot of ancient DNA in the British Isles with less admixture from invaders than one might think.

However, a web article on the Independent "Celts descended from Spanish fishermen, study finds" actually agrees with other things I've read saying that the indigenous Irish came from Spain, and given that, I have to change my definition of Celt. I was thinking Celts were from Northern/Central Europe. My Mom certainly could have passed for Spanish. And the Basque would account for the associated red hair among those Celts that have it.

And last simple question of the day, Is it possible that my K1b1b* moved to the USA 400 years ago and no longer exists in Ireland, or that maybe the US Branch should be K1b1b2? I have a sister and a whole pile of cousins with the identical K1b1b mtDNA in the US.

Thanks again!

The story about Spanish fishermen is very old. A better starting point for reading is Mallory's 2015 book 'Origins of the Irish'. Remember that the migration paths of the males and females is quite different. We know where the men largely come from, see the 2017 Olalde paper "The Beaker Phenomenon and the Genomic Transformation of Northwest Europe".

PapaJoe
05-08-2021, 09:16 PM
The story about Spanish fishermen is very old. A better starting point for reading is Mallory's 2015 book 'Origins of the Irish'. Remember that the migration paths of the males and females is quite different. We know where the men largely come from, see the 2017 Olalde paper "The Beaker Phenomenon and the Genomic Transformation of Northwest Europe".

Thank you again.

My paternal line is ancient Polish. There is a Polish village with the family name, so not much moving around I think.

So for autosomal DNA, there would be no previous admixture between maternal and paternal lines since they were from separate parts of the world. That wouldn't matter for the haplogroups, but would matter for heat maps of recent autosomal relatives. The 23&me report on the autosomal DNA says I have recent relatives (last 200 years) in Great Britain and Ireland. So, I'm pretty sure if I have relatives in Cork, it's because of my Mom's DNA and not my Dad's.

My mtDNA would follow the female Irish line then. I will look for Mallory's Book. FWIW, I think I was confusing Celtic with Anglo-Saxon when I said pre-Celt earlier. I know the difference, but have occasional brain farts :)

The British autosomal close-relative heat map (50%CI) shows largest group is London, with lesser amounts in Manchester and Merseyside, with lesser still in Glasgow, West Midlands, West Yorkshire, Kent, South Yorkshire, Lancashire and Edinburgh.

The Irish autosomal heat map shows strong Dublin, with strong-moderate numbers in Mayo, Cork, Galway, Meath, Sligo and Wicklow as the most likely place to find close relatives.

As capital cities, Dublin and London being business, political, et al centers would attract people who were not originally from those cities, so having recent relatives in those cities might be anomalies. I'll throw those out.

Given the heat map concentrations of possible relatives in Ireland vs Britain, and because Manchester and Merseyside are just a short boat ride from Ireland, and because the oldest samples of K1b1* so far are continental or in Ireland or the Orkneys, but only more recent samples in Britain I'm guessing Irish/Celt is what I'll end up being on my Mom's side.

I need to go back to the old family genealogy and trace the maternal line back. I know my Mom's paternal line came to America in the 1640's, but I'm not sure how far the maternal line goes back or can be traced.

Do my 'likely Irish' assumptions sound like a reasonable starting point for further analysis?

Thanks again

PapaJoe
05-08-2021, 09:52 PM
Right, your untested list includes the markers for K1b1b1 (T14063C and G14384A).

You can see an estimate of when two branches split (TMRCA) on this tree: https://www.yfull.com/mtree/K1/

Ok, thanks. Now with....


https://www.yfull.com/mtree/K1b1a/
K1b1a is formed 8700 ybp - TMRCA 4000 ybp

https://www.yfull.com/mtree/K1b1b/
k1b1b is formed 8700 ybp - TMRCA 6100 ybp

Am I reading it right that they differ in splitting by 2100 years, but K1b1b seems to have split before K1b1a? I expect I'm reading that wrong somehow.

J1 DYS388=13
05-09-2021, 07:52 AM
You are correct. Where those splits occurred is uncertain.

PapaJoe
10-14-2021, 02:23 AM
My guess is that researchers found kib1a first so it got the 'a', and the 'b' was named later because researchers found it later, and those letters are representative of when they were identified, and not when they first appeared?

J1 DYS388=13
10-14-2021, 04:25 AM
My guess is that researchers found kib1a first so it got the 'a', and the 'b' was named later because researchers found it later, and those letters are representative of when they were identified, and not when they first appeared?
That is correct. As I said either here or on the FTDNA Ireland forum, you could in theory belong to an as-yet unidentified branch of K1b1.