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StillWater
05-09-2021, 03:58 AM
First I'd like to thank Davidski for converting the samples to G25. This couldn't happen without his help. Here is a PCA of every Mizrachi group (some may not be in the official sheet yet and credit goes to Agamemnon for making the PCA):

44615

You'll notice 2 Kurdish Jewish groups. All known so far is that the set of Kurdish Jews seems to split into 2 clusters. Best guess is that the 2 clusters represent Iranian and Iraqi Kurdish Jews (first pointed out by Erikl86). The reason there are separate labels for Azeri and Mountain Jews is simply because they haven't been edited yet. It's really Azeri Jews and North Caucasian Jews. Both groups are Mountain Jews.

In addition, here is a breakdown of Mumbai Jews (likely Bene Israel) and Cochin Jews:

Credit for the Cochin Jew model goes to LeosLake:

Target: Cochin_Jew
Distance: 1.2381% / 0.01238078
48.8 Piramalai
26.0 Bengali_Bangladesh
25.2 Iranian_Jew

Target: Mumbai_Jew
Distance: 1.3068% / 0.01306803 | R2P
58.0 Uttar_Pradesh
42.0 Iranian_Jew

Johnny ola
05-09-2021, 08:26 AM
I am coming close to all these Jews and I plot in the middle of this PCA(made by Agamemnon).But i have a serious question here. What's the story behind Mizrahi Jews? They are the people who settled in Mesopotamia at some time especially during the middle ages/Roman-Byzantine times or they are people who ended up there during the Babylonian captivity and the exile of Israelites? Their autosomal seems mostly native Mesopotamian with also something close to Samaritans.

StillWater
05-09-2021, 10:59 AM
I am coming close to all these Jews and I plot in the middle of this PCA(made by Agamemnon).But i have a serious question here. What's the story behind Mizrahi Jews? They are the people who settled in Mesopotamia at some time especially during the middle ages/Roman-Byzantine times or they are people who ended up there during the Babylonian captivity and the exile of Israelites? Their autosomal seems mostly native Mesopotamian with also something close to Samaritans.

Almost entirely - that one.

Yes, they seem to be mostly a mix of Israelites and Mesopotamians, but appear to have other admixtures local to their settlement as well.

Johnny ola
05-09-2021, 01:03 PM
Almost entirely - that one.

Yes, they seem to be mostly a mix of Israelites and Mesopotamians, but appear to have other admixtures local to their settlement as well.

I see. So they inhabit these lands from old times... Interesting!!!!

StillWater
05-09-2021, 07:09 PM
I see. So they inhabit these lands from old times... Interesting!!!!

There is actually a Pontic Greek in a Mizrachi clade.

Johnny ola
05-09-2021, 07:23 PM
There is actually a Pontic Greek in a Mizrachi clade.

I remember you telling me this.Can you remind me again the Haplo/Clade?It was R1a if i am not mistaken?

Helves
05-09-2021, 07:40 PM
Last year I asked Peterski/Tomenable to upload a set of Kurdish Jewish Academic samples to Gedmatch. Out of the 10 or so kits only three seemed to be actual Kurdish Jews(few matches in the one-to-many option, clustering very close to Iraqi Jews). The remaining samples scored like Bukharan Jews and they also matched them often with 100-200 cM. Maybe these are the same samples?

Has David btw added these samples to his dataset? I can't seem to find them.

StillWater
05-09-2021, 07:43 PM
I remember you telling me this.Can you remind me again the Haplo/Clade?It was R1a if i am not mistaken?

R2a. Somewhere in here: https://yfull.com/tree/R-FGC13184/

hartaisarlag
05-09-2021, 07:52 PM
First I'd like to thank Davidski for converting the samples to G25. This couldn't happen without his help. Here is a PCA of every Mizrachi group (some may not be in the official sheet yet and credit goes to Agamemnon for making the PCA):

44615

You'll notice 2 Kurdish Jewish groups. All known so far is that the set of Kurdish Jews seems to split into 2 clusters. Best guess is that the 2 clusters represent Iranian and Iraqi Kurdish Jews (first pointed out by Erikl86). The reason there are separate labels for Azeri and Mountain Jews is simply because they haven't been edited yet. It's really Azeri Jews and North Caucasian Jews. Both groups are Mountain Jews.

In addition, here is a breakdown of Mumbai Jews (likely Bene Israel) and Cochin Jews:

Credit for the Cochin Jew model goes to LeosLake:

Target: Cochin_Jew
Distance: 1.2381% / 0.01238078
48.8 Piramalai
26.0 Bengali_Bangladesh
25.2 Iranian_Jew

Target: Mumbai_Jew
Distance: 1.3068% / 0.01306803 | R2P
58.0 Uttar_Pradesh
42.0 Iranian_Jew

Much needed thread - looking forward to the discussion here.

Johnny ola
05-09-2021, 08:04 PM
R2a. Somewhere in here: https://yfull.com/tree/R-FGC13184/

Might be of Iranic roots? R2 seems very weird lineage. Have you seen Jews with R2 or Its the only One?

StillWater
05-09-2021, 08:56 PM
Might be of Iranic roots? R2 seems very weird lineage. Have you seen Jews with R2 or Its the only One?

This isn't the only one, but it likely is the biggest one.

Johnny ola
05-09-2021, 09:36 PM
This isn't the only one, but it likely is the biggest one.

It would be a good idea someone from the Jewish/Hebrew community to create a thread with various Jewish subgroups and their ydna/clades.For example.. What it is the most frequent ydna among Mihrazi Jews, Sephardic, ASH Jews and so on.

StillWater
05-09-2021, 09:43 PM
It would be a good idea someone from the Jewish/Hebrew community to create a thread with various Jewish subgroups and their ydna/clades.For example.. What it is the most frequent ydna among Mihrazi Jews, Sephardic, ASH Jews and so on.

This has been done for Ashkenazi Jews. The aforementioned lineage is likely the most common one among Mizrachi Jews.

Targum
05-10-2021, 09:52 PM
Mizrahhim are the descendants, essentially of יהודי בבל Yehudey Bavel, Babylonian Jewry. This includes Yehudey Bavel (Iraqim), Persian Jews, Bukharan Jews, Afghan Jews, Mountain Jews, Georgian Jews, Nash Didan Jews, Kurdistan Jews (Neo-Aramaic speakers), Urfali Jews, the exotic Indian and Chinese Jews, some of whom completely assimilated This population was formed from the Judean deportees as well as whatever ancient admixes occurred. This group had cultural contact with the Land of Israel, and also Western Jews, in that fairly standardized Jewish Hebrew and Aramaic writings circulated , from antiquity to the present, throughout the entire mainstream Jewish world, Mizrahhi, Western (Western includes AJ, SJ, Italqim, Romaniote, North African non-Sefaradi Jews), Temanim (Yemenites), and only missed the extremely isolated groups like Beta Israel, Kaifeng Jews, Bene Israel before their re-connection etc. These writings were constantly updated via שאלות ותשובות She'elot uTeshuvot, Responsa Literature, so any community in the mainstream "circuit" eventually saw the Responsa from farther communities, and everyone (male) read Hebrew, which was the language the שאלות ותשובות Responsa were written in.

Michalis Moriopoulos
05-29-2021, 12:04 AM
This is great. Where can I find the coordinates for these new samples? They're not in the official data sheets.

leorcooper19
05-29-2021, 12:16 AM
This is great. Where can I find the coordinates for these new samples? They're not in the official data sheets.

Here they are in individual scaled form. Note that three of the Kurdish_Jew individuals closely resemble the three Bukharian_Jew individuals who have been confirmed are Bukharian. I feel comfortable using all six together for Bukharian as others commented the kits are all close cousins on GEDmatch.

Also added are the full list of Tunisian and Libyan Jewish samples, as with these new samples several more of each have been added. We're quite lucky to have such a collection for what are relatively small groups.


AlgeriaJew1561:AlgeriaJew1561,0.068294,0.144205,-0.030547,-0.056525,0.011694,-0.027331,-0.00658,-0.004384,0.012067,0.018406,0.00406,-0.000749,0.003865,-0.008257,-0.006515,-0.001326,0.001565,-0.003041,-0.013324,0.003502,-0.002995,0.005317,-0.001232,0.006627,0.002036
AlgeriaJew1855:AlgeriaJew1855,0.079676,0.146236,-0.016216,-0.055233,0.013541,-0.016455,-0.00376,-0.000462,0.015748,0.02278,0.001949,0.003747,-0.000892,-0.009909,-0.008415,0.008618,0.01343,-0.001014,-0.00729,-0.00075,-0.006239,-0.002844,-0.001849,0.000482,0.000599
AlgeriaJew4787:AlgeriaJew4787,0.071709,0.15436,-0.025267,-0.071706,0.008617,-0.032351,-0.00282,-0.003231,0.018407,0.01713,0.008607,-0.007194,0.014123,-0.001239,0.001764,-0.004375,-0.018775,-0.000633,-0.006411,0.00025,0.001123,-0.004451,0.007025,-0.00012,0.001916
AlgeriaJew5183:AlgeriaJew5183,0.0774,0.140143,-0.010182,-0.060078,0.01231,-0.023706,-0.003995,0.001846,0.012271,0.022962,0.007957,0.001 049,0.005798,-0.007294,-0.000543,0.004243,-0.000913,-0.00228,-0.005656,-0.003877,-0.002745,0,0.000986,-0.000843,-0.00467
AlgeriaJew5216:AlgeriaJew5216,0.068294,0.148267,-0.026776,-0.062985,0.015387,-0.026216,-0.002585,-0.000692,0.016771,0.026971,0.006658,0.003147,0.004 608,0.004679,-0.009229,-0.008486,-0.015516,-0.00114,0.000503,-0.01063,-0.008984,0.001855,0.007518,-0.000964,-0.002275
AzeriJew:GRC12118114,0.094473,0.133034,-0.063356,-0.065569,-0.035699,-0.009761,0.00423,-0.000462,-0.01943,-0.004191,0.005196,-0.003747,0.006392,0.000138,0.001493,0.004508,-0.020079,0.001267,0.001257,-0.002501,-0.003868,-0.001978,-0.00037,0.001084,0.001676
AzeriJew:GRC12118116,0.09675,0.131003,-0.063356,-0.063308,-0.034776,-0.018965,-0.001175,-0.006231,-0.016975,-0.00656,0.005196,-0.005395,0.006392,0.012386,-0.009365,0.015911,-0.005998,0.002534,0.001634,-0.004252,-0.001123,0.000866,-0.00493,0.005663,-0.000359
AzeriJew:GRC12118123,0.100164,0.128972,-0.050911,-0.059109,-0.028005,-0.016176,0.00188,-0.006,-0.020248,-0.000547,0.006171,-0.001649,0.001635,-0.00234,-0.0038,0.003315,-0.01708,-0.000253,0.013827,-0.01138,0.001123,0.00371,0.002588,-0.002169,0.008981
FranceJewF38:FranceJewF38,0.09675,0.144205,-0.012822,-0.049096,0.010156,-0.017849,-0.00329,-0.003231,0.005522,0.021686,0.002436,-0.005245,0.006392,0.003165,-0.007057,-0.002917,-0.010952,-0.00038,-0.006536,-0.013131,0.001747,-0.004946,-0.00037,0,-0.000718
FranceJewF39:FranceJewF39,0.099026,0.142174,-0.015462,-0.053295,0.011079,-0.023427,-0.00799,-0.007154,0.011453,0.024055,0.002436,-0.000599,0.003568,0.001927,-0.0038,-0.004773,-0.007823,-0.005194,-0.00264,-0.006378,-0.004367,-0.005935,0.003574,0.006386,0.008023
FranceJewF48:FranceJewF48,0.095611,0.138112,-0.015085,-0.052649,0.011079,-0.017291,-0.00141,0.002538,0.009204,0.018953,0.006496,0.0034 47,0.002973,-0.004129,-0.005293,0.007425,-0.001173,0.00152,0.000503,-0.006253,0.001622,-0.001607,0.003451,-0.001084,0.002994
FranceJewF50:FranceJewF50,0.094473,0.147252,-0.020742,-0.051034,0.005232,-0.022311,-0.00047,-0.000462,0.005113,0.016219,0.002761,0.000749,0.002 973,-0.001927,-0.01045,0.012198,0.019949,-0.006334,-0.005154,-0.000875,0.000873,0.000866,0.001232,0.001325,0.002 036
FranceJewF58:FranceJewF58,0.087644,0.144205,-0.015839,-0.04845,0.008925,-0.01506,-0.003995,0.002308,0.007363,0.013485,-0.000974,-0.001499,0.000446,0,0.003257,-0.009944,-0.007041,-0.007601,0.00088,-0.003126,-0.001747,-0.007048,-0.000739,0.004699,-0.000958
FranceJewF59:FranceJewF59,0.097888,0.144205,-0.014331,-0.053295,0.007078,-0.018965,-0.00141,-0.004615,0.006954,0.02278,0.007145,-0.001199,-0.000297,-0.008945,0.001764,0.019623,0.011735,-0.00152,0.000628,-0.004002,-0.007612,-0.004451,-0.002465,0.009881,0.003113
Cochin:GRC12118091,0.048944,-0.037575,-0.135386,0.068799,-0.056934,0.042112,0.000705,0.01223,0.032724,0.0169 48,-0.000812,-0.000599,0.004311,0.00289,0.001221,-0.003713,-0.004694,-0.003927,-0.001383,-0.005002,0.003244,-0.00136,-0.007888,-0.004458,-0.001796
Cochin:GRC12118096,0.046667,-0.03859,-0.1467,0.075582,-0.064935,0.048806,0.00047,0.005538,0.024543,0.0293 4,-0.00406,0.002997,0.000595,0.005367,-0.004886,-0.006497,0.003912,0.008868,-0.001257,0.002001,0.006738,0.000247,0.002835,0.002 771,-0.007424
Cochin:GRC12118111,0.047806,-0.033512,-0.132746,0.068153,-0.064627,0.04518,-0.00047,0.007615,0.028838,0.014214,-0.000162,-0.004046,0.003865,0.006055,0,-0.005436,-0.011995,0.001394,-0.000377,-0.013256,0.002121,-0.007914,-0.000246,-0.002892,0.00455
MumbaiJew:GRC12118094,0.066017,0.013202,-0.118416,0.041667,-0.056318,0.028168,-0.002585,0.002538,0.020861,0.017312,-0.006983,-0.004796,0.007433,0.004542,-0.001629,-0.009414,-0.019297,0.004687,0.004902,-0.004877,-0.001123,0.002226,-0.000493,0.002651,-0.004071
MumbaiJew:GRC12118106,0.067156,-0.006093,-0.122187,0.043282,-0.057857,0.029284,0,0.008077,0.019634,0.012028,-0.00406,0.002997,0.001784,0.001927,0.002714,-0.001724,-0.000782,-0.005194,-0.00352,-0.001876,-0.001996,0.000989,-0.000616,0.009278,-0.002155
KurdJew856:KurdJew856,0.093335,0.135065,-0.064488,-0.072998,-0.029236,-0.025937,0.00282,-0.006231,-0.012885,0,0.00747,-0.005695,0.010258,0.000413,-0.005565,0.013392,0.008345,-0.00114,-0.000251,-0.004877,0.006988,0.000247,-0.000986,-0.002892,-0.00467
KurdJew1551:KurdJew1551,0.092197,0.139128,-0.062602,-0.068799,-0.033237,-0.026216,0.00094,-0.009692,-0.010226,-0.003827,0.001461,-0.006894,0.011298,0.001927,-0.003529,0.009281,-0.007823,0.000127,-0.00264,-0.003252,-0.001497,0.005564,-0.0053,-0.002651,0.002874
KurdJew1580:KurdJew1580,0.091058,0.127957,-0.070899,-0.077843,-0.036007,-0.018686,0.00611,-0.005077,-0.015339,-0.00328,0.005846,-0.01094,0.017096,0.001789,-0.006786,0.007027,-0.006519,0.00228,0.01169,-0.009004,-0.00262,0.000247,0.000986,-0.003735,0.006107
KurdJew4573:KurdJew4573,0.097888,0.126941,-0.064865,-0.068799,-0.024312,-0.02008,0.005875,-0.003,-0.01268,-0.00164,0.004384,-0.007943,0.011447,0.003991,-0.004343,0.020551,0.005737,0.002534,0.005531,-0.000625,-0.002121,-0.002597,-0.004067,0.004458,0.003113
KurdJew4663:KurdJew4663,0.087644,0.14319,-0.065619,-0.079781,-0.029236,-0.02259,-0.00141,-0.012461,-0.011453,-0.003462,0.005521,-0.005395,0.011298,0.00867,-0.001629,-0.001458,-0.012256,0.003421,0.002388,-0.007629,0.007736,0.005441,-0.002342,0.002651,0.004311
KurdishJew:GRC12118100,0.099026,0.131003,-0.057699,-0.075259,-0.026159,-0.024263,0.00047,-0.000692,-0.015544,-0.004556,0.009256,-0.007643,0.017245,0.003853,-0.005972,0.022142,0.013038,-0.00038,-0.00176,-0.001626,0.001747,0.005688,0.001849,0.001807,0.010 059
Bukharian:GRC12118089,0.093335,0.114755,-0.057322,-0.042313,-0.032621,-0.014781,0.00047,-0.004846,-0.018407,-0.01057,0.001624,-0.009142,0.008176,-0.002064,0.002036,0.013922,0.003129,0.00038,0.0070 39,-0.006628,0.00025,-0.004822,-0.006532,0.002651,-0.001317
Bukharian:GRC12118109,0.091058,0.116786,-0.059208,-0.049419,-0.032621,-0.009761,0.002115,0.000692,-0.01943,-0.009659,0.001949,-0.005245,0.010852,-0.00578,-0.004479,0.010607,0.002738,-0.000887,0.001131,-0.007128,-0.007487,-0.006677,-0.006039,-0.001566,0.003353
Bukharian:GRC12118115,0.097888,0.111708,-0.058831,-0.040698,-0.033237,-0.013666,0.00235,-0.002308,-0.022907,-0.006743,0.004547,-0.006594,0.00446,0.000963,0.001493,0.007292,-0.00691,0.000507,0.000377,-0.007253,-0.002371,0.003462,-0.00456,-0.008796,0.00491
KurdJew1824:KurdJew1824,0.094473,0.103584,-0.059208,-0.039406,-0.041238,-0.007251,-0.001175,-0.006231,-0.014317,-0.003827,-0.001461,-0.004346,0.013082,-0.003165,-0.000407,0.028639,0.008866,0.005321,-0.000754,-0.003001,-0.002745,0.000989,-0.00493,0.002169,0.00491
KurdJew4633:KurdJew4633,0.097888,0.109677,-0.053551,-0.04199,-0.029544,-0.013108,0.00235,0.001154,-0.014521,-0.002187,0.006496,-0.011989,0.01442,0.002615,-0.005429,0.010209,-0.011995,-0.00038,0.003771,-0.007003,-0.001872,-0.00272,0.003328,-0.000602,-0.00012
KurdJew4689:KurdJew4689,0.094473,0.105615,-0.062979,-0.043928,-0.033545,-0.000279,-0.00282,-0.006692,-0.01718,-0.00164,-0.004384,-0.004196,0.00996,-0.01101,0.000679,0.018563,0.015385,-0.001267,0.000503,0.001626,0.00025,0.000495,-0.003944,-0.001687,0.005149
Tunisian_Jew:TunisiaJew1118,0.063741,0.148267,-0.028661,-0.072352,0.001846,-0.02761,-0.008225,-0.004154,0.024338,0.017677,0.007795,-0.003297,0.008771,-0.00055,-0.002172,0.005834,0.003651,-0.00076,-0.002514,0.003001,-0.007736,-0.008532,-0.000123,-0.011929,0.00479
Tunisian_Jew:TunisianJew1170,0.0774,0.153345,-0.029415,-0.073644,0.008925,-0.020638,-0.004935,-0.007154,0.017794,0.021322,0.009743,-0.006444,0.003717,-0.008945,0.0038,0.001724,-0.006389,-0.003421,-0.003268,-0.009254,-0.010482,-0.006925,0.007025,-0.001205,0.000239
Tunisian_Jew:TunisianJew1421,0.075123,0.150298,-0.02225,-0.065246,-0.001539,-0.033467,-0.00987,0.004384,0.021066,0.022233,0.00065,0.00134 9,0.001338,0.004266,-0.001086,-0.005304,-0.005607,0.004307,-0.00352,0.004752,-0.006738,-0.003091,0.005793,0.003735,0.000239
Tunisian_Jew:TunisianJew1507,0.056912,0.140143,-0.039598,-0.080427,0.001231,-0.023706,-0.00987,0.000692,0.028633,0.017859,0.001299,-0.002548,0.009812,-0.000963,0.001764,-0.002784,0.002347,-0.002154,-0.004777,0.001751,-0.003619,-0.009645,0.006286,-0.001084,0.010777
Tunisian_Jew:TunisianJew1511,0.07057,0.141159,-0.022627,-0.065569,0.002462,-0.018128,-0.004935,0.001615,0.012476,0.023691,0.007307,-0.00045,0.008622,-0.00055,-0.0038,-0.00358,-0.002347,-0.003421,-0.004525,-0.004127,-0.004367,-0.011252,-0.001602,0.007953,0.004071
Tunisian_Jew:TunisianJew1531,0.072847,0.158423,-0.030547,-0.075259,0.001539,-0.027331,-0.01034,0.003692,0.022089,0.018041,0.00747,-0.007194,0.006244,0.011147,-0.003936,-0.003713,-0.002608,-0.002407,-0.012067,-0.002626,0.000125,-0.006925,0.002342,-0.003012,-0.000239
Tunisian_Jew:TunisianJew1544,0.068294,0.137096,-0.026021,-0.074936,0.003385,-0.027052,-0.00658,0.001615,0.016771,0.02041,0.007795,-0.004646,0.008028,-0.000963,-0.001764,-0.003182,-0.003129,0.000887,-0.005279,-0.005002,-0.001248,-0.016446,0.003328,0.004097,0.008622
Tunisian_Jew:TunisiaJew5200,0.078538,0.146236,-0.032055,-0.065246,0.011079,-0.022869,-0.00846,-0.003923,0.020043,0.021139,0.006171,0.00045,0.0099 6,-0.007019,-0.007057,0.004243,0.004042,-0.001267,-0.007919,-0.004752,-0.000125,-0.005935,0.002342,-0.003976,0.000838
Tunisian_Jew:TunisianJew1763,0.072847,0.14319,-0.027153,-0.081073,0.008309,-0.031515,-0.00752,-0.002077,0.024338,0.025149,0.006333,-0.003297,0.012339,-0.001101,0.001357,-0.00411,-0.005607,-0.003547,-0.013575,-0.001376,-0.000374,-0.00371,0.002095,-0.000964,-0.010179
Libyan_Jew:LibyanJew1104,0.076261,0.141159,-0.029793,-0.063631,0.010463,-0.022869,-0.014806,-0.004846,0.019021,0.019135,-0.000325,0.002548,0.007433,0,-0.001764,0.007425,-0.001043,0.001394,0.002137,-0.005378,0.004991,0.003215,0.0053,-0.001205,0.001796
Libyan_Jew:LibyanJew1263,0.055773,0.152329,-0.024136,-0.065892,-0.000615,-0.026495,-0.00893,-0.002769,0.01718,0.026424,0.008931,-0.002997,0.005649,-0.003441,-0.002714,0.00305,0.002477,-0.001394,-0.007039,0.004502,-0.006988,-0.005317,0.011832,-0.00253,0.00455
Libyan_Jew:LibyanJew1438,0.062603,0.142174,-0.034695,-0.072352,0.004924,-0.023148,-0.00329,-0.007384,0.027406,0.017859,0.008931,0.003297,0.011 893,-0.00234,-0.002172,0.00716,0.001825,-0.004307,-0.010684,-0.002501,-0.009358,-0.013354,0.015159,-0.007471,0.002395
Libyan_Jew:LibyanJew1462,0.076261,0.147252,-0.025644,-0.068153,0.005539,-0.024542,-0.0047,-0.009692,0.024747,0.021868,0.006008,0.003297,0.003 419,-0.001101,0.005429,-0.005038,-0.020601,-0.001647,-0.009176,-0.004377,0.004367,-0.012489,0.007518,0.006145,-0.001557
Libyan_Jew:LibyanJew1601,0.068294,0.144205,-0.03017,-0.072029,0.002154,-0.0251,0.002585,0.001385,0.011249,0.01549,0.00341,-0.01139,0.01115,-0.000688,-0.001357,-0.000796,-0.003651,-0.001014,-0.006159,-0.005378,-0.000998,-0.011747,-0.000123,-0.00723,0.00467
Libyan_Jew:LibyaJew1405,0.064879,0.145221,-0.038089,-0.075905,-0.001846,-0.034025,-0.0094,-0.005307,0.023929,0.02041,0.005196,-0.007943,0.016799,-0.011836,-0.006515,0.005701,-0.00013,-0.002914,-0.007542,0.000875,0.000749,-0.00371,0.001602,0,0.001317
Libyan_Jew:LibyaJew1439,0.055773,0.144205,-0.032809,-0.068153,0.001231,-0.036814,-0.011986,-0.002308,0.023316,0.018953,0.002923,0.00015,0.0074 33,-0.002202,0.001764,-0.002784,0.006258,-0.005321,-0.008422,0.002376,-0.007112,-0.004822,0.002835,0.001566,0.005748
Libyan_Jew:LibyaJew1465,0.07057,0.142174,-0.034318,-0.07752,0.003385,-0.026216,-0.012221,-0.001615,0.01718,0.02442,0.007145,-0.005395,0.01219,-0.003853,-0.006786,0.002917,0.002999,-0.001014,-0.004902,-0.003752,-0.004367,-0.005193,-0.001232,-0.000361,0.004071
Libyan_Jew:LibyaJew1579,0.062603,0.14319,-0.034318,-0.071383,0.001539,-0.02008,-0.00376,-0.005307,0.024134,0.017677,0.004547,-0.001349,0.000297,-0.007432,0.00095,0.012066,0.015907,0.000253,0.0003 77,0.005628,-0.002371,-0.008285,-0.000493,0.002169,-0.002634
Libyan_Jew:LibyaJew1605,0.061464,0.145221,-0.024513,-0.062662,0.007386,-0.03012,-0.012221,-0.006231,0.022498,0.020228,0.006333,-0.000749,0.004757,-0.004542,0.000543,0.012331,0.012517,-0.003547,-0.005405,0.003377,-0.006613,-0.003091,0.003081,-0.000361,0.003233
Libyan_Jew:LibyaJew1611,0.068294,0.142174,-0.019987,-0.067184,0.01508,-0.024821,-0.007755,-0.004154,0.022089,0.018041,0.005521,-0.000899,0.003568,-0.003165,-0.003393,0.011403,0.016037,-0.003927,-0.001006,0.009755,0.001373,-0.009521,0.009244,0.003494,-0.004431

ChrisR
05-29-2021, 02:20 PM
What group are the Nash Didan from Urmia associated with - Iranian Jew? I research one Y-DNA line from there and more hints regarding the autosomal etc. origin are interesting.
Notes regarding my research:

Ancestry/Admixture: Known old origin from Urmia in Iran and also Gever/Yuksekova in Turkey which is about 60 miles away. Some more recent origin from Syria (I. Assa Farca).
Their traditional language is Lishán Didán, a modern Jewish Aramaic language, often called Neo-Aramaic or Judeo-Aramaic. Originally this language and group was in and near Iranian Azerbaijan (NW. Iran) so areas like: Western Lake Urmia, Lake Van area, down to the Mosul plain (Iraq), Sanandaj (W.Iran) and other Kurdish areas. The main cities being Urmiah, Salmas, Bashkale (TK) and Gavur. Typical work: cloth trade merchants, jewelers or goldsmiths.
In the last generations most moved to Israel or Western Countries.

Jewish settlement near Urmia by the end of the 8th century BCE (ca. 725 BCE) is documented by archeological artifacts.
Tradition tells Jews fled mainly to the Nash Didan area during the defeats of the Southern Kingdom of Judah to the Neo-Babylonian empire. The main deportations into Babylonian captivity or Babylonian exile of Judeans are reported ca. 605 to 583 BCE including the fall of Jerusalem.

In the context of the Y-DNA phylogeography and archeologically also the following could make sense:
The Northern Kingdom of Israel (Samaria) faced defeats by the Neo-Assyrian Empire in 750, 732 and 722 BCE when it was conquered and many Israelites were deported to Mesopotamia or other places of the Empire, in the biblical tradition of the Lost Tribes some were expelled to the land of the Medes in modern-day Iran eg Naphtali to Ecbatana (Hamedan) and Rhages (Tehran). The Northern Israelite territory is reported for tribe Asher including Sidon (modern South Gov., Lebanon) and for tribe Naphtali North of Ijon and Dan (modern Nabatieh Gov. Lebanon).
The Neo-Assyrian Empire in 609 BCE was destroyed by Neo-Babylonians and Medes.

I would be interested in opinions in the traditional Judah/Babylonian vs alternative Samaria/Assyrian main Jewish migration to the Urmia region.

leorcooper19
05-29-2021, 09:14 PM
What group are the Nash Didan from Urmia associated with - Iranian Jew? I research one Y-DNA line from there and more hints regarding the autosomal etc. origin are interesting.
Notes regarding my research:

I would be interested in opinions in the traditional Judah/Babylonian vs alternative Samaria/Assyrian main Jewish migration to the Urmia region.

What's the Y-DNA line in question? https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y155309/ ?

To my understanding Nash Didan would be closest to Aramaic-speaking Kurdish Jews, however we now know that Iraqi Jews, Kurdish Jews, and some Iranian Jews all resemble each other quite closely. See this PCA I made:
https://ibb.co/jWzj4bY

I think that some of the Iranian Jews overlapping with the Iraqi Jewish and Kurdish Jewish clusters could even be from Urmia.

In terms of how these communities got there, I personally find it hard to believe that the ancient Jewish communities of Babylonia and environs were settled then in the Iron Age and then have stayed mostly continuous since. Of course there will be some continuity, but I don't think we should discount more recent migrations from around the Middle East as well as additions from Western Jewry. Would love to hear a more learned member's take though.

ChrisR
05-30-2021, 10:21 AM
What's the Y-DNA line in question? https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y155309/ ?
Yes: N88317/YF14911 Tzfania Ben Yedidya [AB-421] & YF71800 + STR-match 711230 Assa [AB-421].

I could not yet research deeper tribal origins for the J-BY37605 TMRCA 3500 ybp matches
in J-Y135096: M11942/YF13234 Saudi Arabia (الدخيّل الدخيّل - ملهم - البرة, Al-Dakhil - Al-Bara) & M9175/YF12226 Kuwait Masoudy
in J-BY37605*: 442844/YF14706? Kuwait Alnoh

The J-FGC16079 TMRCA 5000 ybp subgroup of J-Y19679 TMRCA 850 ybp is mainly in the Wayeel / Bani Wael (Banu Bakr ibn Wa'il (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Bakr)) tribe and some Eneza (Al Enezi, 'Anizzah). Banu Bakr ibn Wa'il had a 40-year War of Basous (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Basous) (Albasus) from 494-534 CE with cousins from Banu Taghlib ibn Wa'il. Both tribes are reported as Christian Arabs. The connections to the possible center of J-FGC16079 spread in northern Fertile crescent (see Al-Jazirah (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Jazira,_Mesopotamia) - map (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Al-Jazira.svg) and Assyria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyria)) can be found in classical Arab genealogies: Banu Bakr ibn Wa'il together with 'Anizzah, Taghlib, and Bani Hanifa is member of the large Rabi'ah branch of Adnanite Arab tribes. Bakr's original lands were in Najd, in central Arabia, but most of the tribe's bedouin sections migrated northwards immediately before Islam, and settled in the area of Al-Jazirah, specifically Diyar Rabi'a (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diyar_Rabi'a) (Upper Mesopotamia). Also 'Anizzah recorded by early Muslim scholars, had one nomadic branch, living in the northern Arabian steppes bordering Syria and Mesopotamia. Adnan itself is reported living ca. 122 BCE. It will be interesting to discover more and especially how much J1 and J2a and what deep clades are common in these tribes and clans. The first assumption is that the J2a from Assyria (Al-Jazirah) or nearby regions, merged into J1 groups when these clans migrated to that area. Looking at the Arab Tribes project the dominant HG for Adnan-Rabe'a is J1-L858-L222.2 with some J2a, R1b, E1b, G, etc. Later these tribes spread back in to Arabia and other Middle East places.

In the older J-Y14400 TMRCA 5800 ybp group there is a pretty broad Lebanese cluster with members from Mount Lebanon and South Lebanon villages.

So all this would fit with the Nash Didan from Urmia line having the origins somewhere in or near the historical Northern Kingdom of Israel (Samaria) - current South Lebanon. It is certainly possible that the line went further South and then to Urmia or even was coming from more to the North-East. That's why genetic (or archeo-historical sources) clues giving more hints, are interesting to me.


In terms of how these communities got there, I personally find it hard to believe that the ancient Jewish communities of Babylonia and environs were settled then in the Iron Age and then have stayed mostly continuous since. Of course there will be some continuity, but I don't think we should discount more recent migrations from around the Middle East as well as additions from Western Jewry. Would love to hear a more learned member's take though.
Autosomally I certainly agree, despite not being an expert for Mizrahi specifically. But given the archeological Iron Age Jewish presence and so far no other Y-cluster members from other origins, it is interesting to think this uniparental line might have deep roots in Urmia.

leorcooper19
05-30-2021, 01:01 PM
The J-FGC16079 TMRCA 5000 ybp subgroup of J-Y19679 TMRCA 850 ybp is mainly in the Wayeel / Bani Wael (Banu Bakr ibn Wa'il (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Bakr)) tribe and some Eneza (Al Enezi, 'Anizzah). Banu Bakr ibn Wa'il had a 40-year War of Basous (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Basous) (Albasus) from 494-534 CE with cousins from Banu Taghlib ibn Wa'il. Both tribes are reported as Christian Arabs. The connections to the possible center of J-FGC16079 spread in northern Fertile crescent (see Al-Jazirah (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Jazira,_Mesopotamia) - map (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Al-Jazira.svg) and Assyria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyria)) can be found in classical Arab genealogies: Banu Bakr ibn Wa'il together with 'Anizzah, Taghlib, and Bani Hanifa is member of the large Rabi'ah branch of Adnanite Arab tribes. Bakr's original lands were in Najd, in central Arabia, but most of the tribe's bedouin sections migrated northwards immediately before Islam, and settled in the area of Al-Jazirah, specifically Diyar Rabi'a (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diyar_Rabi'a) (Upper Mesopotamia). Also 'Anizzah recorded by early Muslim scholars, had one nomadic branch, living in the northern Arabian steppes bordering Syria and Mesopotamia. Adnan itself is reported living ca. 122 BCE. It will be interesting to discover more and especially how much J1 and J2a and what deep clades are common in these tribes and clans. The first assumption is that the J2a from Assyria (Al-Jazirah) or nearby regions, merged into J1 groups when these clans migrated to that area. Looking at the Arab Tribes project the dominant HG for Adnan-Rabe'a is J1-L858-L222.2 with some J2a, R1b, E1b, G, etc. Later these tribes spread back in to Arabia and other Middle East places.

In the older J-Y14400 TMRCA 5800 ybp group there is a pretty broad Lebanese cluster with members from Mount Lebanon and South Lebanon villages.

So all this would fit with the Nash Didan from Urmia line having the origins somewhere in or near the historical Northern Kingdom of Israel (Samaria) - current South Lebanon. It is certainly possible that the line went further South and then to Urmia or even was coming from more to the North-East. That's why genetic (or archeo-historical sources) clues giving more hints, are interesting to me.

At 5800 ybp you're just looking at the initial diversification of Proto-Semitic. That there exists Lebanese in this lineage has little bearing on its cousin only related back to Proto-Semitic, let alone suggesting that it specifically came from Samaria/northern Israel. The 3500 ybp connections are much more potentially insightful, but so far only suggest a coastal or inland Levant origin, which allows for several different routes ultimately ending in Urmia.


Autosomally I certainly agree, despite not being an expert for Mizrahi specifically. But given the archeological Iron Age Jewish presence and so far no other Y-cluster members from other origins, it is interesting to think this uniparental line might have deep roots in Urmia.

Yes it is interesting, but sadly we are years from making estimates based off the absence of evidence for Mizrachi Y-DNA. And even then, given the tumultuous nature of Jewish history, there's even more of a chance that a lineage will just die off, this increasing bottleneck ages.

I certainly get the want to squeeze the phylogeny for every hint it has for a given subclade, but for this one I just don't feel like there's enough information to say anything confidently other than J-Y14400 may have been presence among early Semites and at some point a descendant of these individuals became Jewish and then later (most likely at least) came to Urmia.

Israelite_Wolfman
06-08-2021, 07:23 PM
As an Oriental Jew myself, I have to just bring the fact of "Mizrahi" being a forced-upon label (&/ a racist umbrella term for all Non-Yidish speaking Jews) that wasn't conceived by the actual people who bear it since the 1930s. It was a derogatory term as "Ostjuden" was; and I still don't like it in its Hebrew form.

Each Jewish Diaspora should be treated as unique piece of the Hebrew People rather than "just one big pile, stretching fluidly wherever to wherever".

It is true that while in exile, Jews moved around all the time, arriving to Jewish centeres such as Iberia and France-Germany from all over. Thus, it isn't accurate to include all European Jews as "Ashkenazi", if they do not have proven lineages to the historic Jews of that geographical region (there's no way on Earth they went from ~150,000 at 1500 to over 15,000,000 [pre-Holocaust] in less than 450 years, they were expelled to Poland and Lithuania as a whole, and their liturgy carried onwards); same about Sephardic Jewry (they're not responsible for any Non-European Jew).

StillWater
06-08-2021, 09:59 PM
As an Oriental Jew myself, I have to just bring the fact of "Mizrahi" being a forced-upon label (&/ a racist umbrella term for all Non-Yidish speaking Jews) that wasn't conceived by the actual people who bear it since the 1930s. It was a derogatory term as "Ostjuden" was; and I still don't like it in its Hebrew form.

Each Jewish Diaspora should be treated as unique piece of the Hebrew People rather than "just one big pile, stretching fluidly wherever to wherever".

It is true that while in exile, Jews moved around all the time, arriving to Jewish centeres such as Iberia and France-Germany from all over. Thus, it isn't accurate to include all European Jews as "Ashkenazi", if they do not have proven lineages to the historic Jews of that geographical region (there's no way on Earth they went from ~150,000 at 1500 to over 15,000,000 [pre-Holocaust] in less than 450 years, they were expelled to Poland and Lithuania as a whole, and their liturgy carried onwards); same about Sephardic Jewry (they're not responsible for any Non-European Jew).

Orient and Mizrach both mean East. If you call yourself Oriental, you should have no issues being called Mizrachi. Mizrachi isn't a label for all non-Ashkenazi Jews, but is a label used in the genetic literature of Babylonian Jews. Also, I recall part of your background being Moroccan Jewish. Moroccan Jewish is Western Jewish. What's the rest of your background?

passenger
06-08-2021, 10:20 PM
As an Oriental Jew myself, I have to just bring the fact of "Mizrahi" being a forced-upon label (&/ a racist umbrella term for all Non-Yidish speaking Jews) that wasn't conceived by the actual people who bear it since the 1930s. It was a derogatory term as "Ostjuden" was; and I still don't like it in its Hebrew form.

Each Jewish Diaspora should be treated as unique piece of the Hebrew People rather than "just one big pile, stretching fluidly wherever to wherever".

It is true that while in exile, Jews moved around all the time, arriving to Jewish centeres such as Iberia and France-Germany from all over. Thus, it isn't accurate to include all European Jews as "Ashkenazi", if they do not have proven lineages to the historic Jews of that geographical region (there's no way on Earth they went from ~150,000 at 1500 to over 15,000,000 [pre-Holocaust] in less than 450 years, they were expelled to Poland and Lithuania as a whole, and their liturgy carried onwards); same about Sephardic Jewry (they're not responsible for any Non-European Jew).

Adding to StillWater's point. I understand that nomenclature can be a sensitive issue, and respect that. However, I think we should also appreciate that nobody has a monopoly on these terms, and that their meaning shifts according to context. I'm sure none of the regulars on this forum are using "Mizrachi" in such a broad sense, but rather, as StillWater says, as a term specifically linked to Babylonian Jews and their descendants, especially in Iraq and Iran, but also to genetically related groups.

"Sephardi(c)" is another one of those confusing terms. In a religious sense, it is sometimes used generically to refer to all those non-Ashkenazi groups that are under the jurisdiction of the Sephardi Chief Rabbi in Israel, which would also include "Eastern" Jews, like Iraqi Jews or Temanim, whom nobody here would generally group under Sephardic. In another sense, Sephardic could refer to all those Mediterranean-basin Jewish communities directly impacted by Iberian Jewish migrants, or to just part of that broad region. In the genetic literature, sometimes "Sephardic" is restricted to Eastern Sephardim (esp. Greek and Turkish Jews). In historical literature, the term is sometimes used to designate Iberian Jews proper, as opposed to the other groups that became integrated into a broader Sephardic religious/cultural community over the centuries.

As you can see, these terms are complicated, and we should understand how each person is using them in a given context. I think it would be impractical to do away with them entirely, though.

leorcooper19
06-08-2021, 10:31 PM
As an Oriental Jew myself, I have to just bring the fact of "Mizrahi" being a forced-upon label (&/ a racist umbrella term for all Non-Yidish speaking Jews) that wasn't conceived by the actual people who bear it since the 1930s. It was a derogatory term as "Ostjuden" was; and I still don't like it in its Hebrew form.

Each Jewish Diaspora should be treated as unique piece of the Hebrew People rather than "just one big pile, stretching fluidly wherever to wherever".

Mizrachi is definitely "Ashkenormative" in an Israeli context, but I would like to say that its use here it fills a very real need for a term to describe the inter-related communities of the "East", just as we use "Western Jews" to describe the inter-related communities of the "West". As we can see on this PCA, this binary actually describes the genetic landscape of Rabbinical Jewry quite well, with only some groups like Teimanim being truly independent. The upper cluster is Western Jews, with Tunisian/Libyan Jews on one end and Eastern Ashkenazi Jews on the other. The lower cluster is Eastern Jews, with Iraqi Jews on one end and Bukharian Jews on the other. Other groups, like Syrian Jews and Egyptian Karaites, plot in between the two groups, which makes sense if the "central" point relative to east and west is the Levant.

https://ibb.co/6mLhkMB

I'd also like to add that because of lack of a Western Jewish narrative, there is the common belief that Ashkenazim and Sephardim do not share any ancestry beyond Judaean. This is a narrative we try to fight against as we have found just how similar all Western Jews are.


It is true that while in exile, Jews moved around all the time, arriving to Jewish centeres such as Iberia and France-Germany from all over. Thus, it isn't accurate to include all European Jews as "Ashkenazi", if they do not have proven lineages to the historic Jews of that geographical region (there's no way on Earth they went from ~150,000 at 1500 to over 15,000,000 [pre-Holocaust] in less than 450 years, they were expelled to Poland and Lithuania as a whole, and their liturgy carried onwards); same about Sephardic Jewry (they're not responsible for any Non-European Jew).

There are lots of Jewish communities that used to exist but don't anymore, and yet all surviving Jewish communities do autosomally fit somewhere into this paradigm I described above. Those of us with Eastern Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry have discussed the potential contribution of "East Kna'anim"- those being the East Slavic-speaking Jews of Eastern Europe that mixed with Eastern Yiddish-speaking Ashkenazim, but no one living today (as much as they might want to claim to be) is an East Kna'ani. I'm sure parallels could be made for smaller historical Jewish communities that, at some point or another, merged into another Jewish group.

Relative to your demographic comment, what are you exactly implying here? That Eastern Ashkenazi Jews have a huge East Kna'anic component? Or a huge convert component? What's your explanation if you believe that such a growth is impossible?

Targum
06-08-2021, 10:33 PM
Adding to StillWater's point. I understand that nomenclature can be a sensitive issue, and respect that. However, I think we should also appreciate that nobody has a monopoly on these terms, and that their meaning shifts according to context. I'm sure none of the regulars on this forum are using "Mizrachi" in such a broad sense, but rather, as StillWater says, as a term specifically linked to Babylonian Jews and their descendants, especially in Iraq and Iran, but also to genetically related groups.

"Sephardi(c)" is another one of those confusing terms. In a religious sense, it is sometimes used generically to refer to all those non-Ashkenazi groups that are under the jurisdiction of the Sephardi Chief Rabbi in Israel, which would also include "Eastern" Jews, like Iraqi Jews or Temanim, whom nobody here would generally group under Sephardic. In another sense, Sephardic could refer to all those Mediterranean-basin Jewish communities directly impacted by Iberian Jewish migrants, or to just part of that broad region. In the genetic literature, sometimes "Sephardic" is restricted to Eastern Sephardim (esp. Greek and Turkish Jews). In historical literature, the term is sometimes used to designate Iberian Jews proper, as opposed to the other groups that can became integrated into a broader Sephardic religious/cultural community over the centuries.

As you can see, these terms are complicated, and we should understand how each person is using them in a given context. I think it would be impractical to do away with them entirely, though.

Mizrahhi is a 100% Hebrew term used in Rabbinic Responsa literature, much of it from Baghdad. It means, in Halakhah the Nusahh, or prayer rite, originating in Bavel (Babylonia). It is thus different and equivalent to the other Nushha'ot: Ashkenaz, Sefarad, Italqi, Romaniot,, North African non-Sefaradi, Yemenite, etc. The information that it was "invented by other Jews" is a-historic and false. It is the label used by Rabbinical authorities who followed the Babylonian tradition. Non-religious, non-Hebrew reading Jews do not realize the huge volume of 1000 years of שאלות ותשובות She'elot uTshuvot, or שו"ת, lit. "Questions and Answers" known as Responsa Literature, concerning every aspect of Halakhah, or jewish Law and Tradition.All Jews were in correspondence with all other mainstream Jews, which means Mizrahhi Rabbis answered questions sent by Polish Rabbis, and Yemenites corresponded with Moroccan and Egyptian Rabbis. So all the sub-ethnic terms were in use in order to give a context to the local Minhag or custom. I wonder where this strange idea that it was labeling got started because it is simply wrong.

passenger
06-08-2021, 10:50 PM
Mizrahhi is a 100% Hebrew term used in Rabbinic Responsa literature, much of it from Baghdad. It means, in Halakhah the Nusahh, or prayer rite, originating in Bavel (Babylonia). It is thus different and equivalent to the other Nushha'ot: Ashkenaz, Sefarad, Italqi, Romaniot,, North African non-Sefaradi, Yemenite, etc. The information that it was "invented by other Jews" is a-historic and false. It is the label used by Rabbinical authorities who followed the Babylonian tradition.

I take your point, and I think that's a good argument for the term's continued usage in certain contexts. However, we can't ignore the fact that in lay society people use the term in all sorts of odd ways. I've even seen (in English-language documents) statistics on Israeli population figures which split the Jewish population into an Ashkenazi/Mizrachi dichotomy, placing North African and Eastern Sephardim together with Mizrachim (proper) and basically all other non-Ashkenazi Jews. I think this is what leads to misconceptions regarding the term. I don't blame people for being apprehensive about this, but, like I said, contextualization is everything.

passenger
06-08-2021, 11:09 PM
Anyway, let's agree to move on. Now that we've established what we mean by the term, I think we can continue to use it here in its proper context. We can argue ad infinitem about the term's evolution, but that's just going to lead us off topic and into a sociopolitical discussion that's probably not appropriate for this forum.

Israelite_Wolfman
06-08-2021, 11:13 PM
Orient and Mizrach both mean East. If you call yourself Oriental, you should have no issues being called Mizrachi. Mizrachi isn't a label for all non-Ashkenazi Jews, but is a label used in the genetic literature of Babylonian Jews. Also, I recall part of your background being Moroccan Jewish. Moroccan Jewish is Western Jewish. What's the rest of your background?

I'm a descendant of both the Sephardic Megorashim and the Toshavim in the Maghreb; and of the Western Asian Jewry.

Sorry but Western Asia isn't the East by definition, unlike Eastern Europe; same goes for the cities on the Pacific Ocean shoreline or in front of the Gibraltar coast. :)

I'm using the term "Oriental" because that's the tentative way to describe the warmer climate countries who fell under the arab-islamic conquest.

I didn't like that someone had removed an entire paragraph from my statement. It was an historic background piece. Babylonian Jews refer to themselves as "Centralite Jews" and not "Mizrahi/Easterners " in the Cairo Genizah.

Targum
06-08-2021, 11:17 PM
The point of the Bavli Rabbis is that Eretz Yisrael (Israel) is the benchmark and the secondary epicenter, Bavel (Babylonia), is east of Israel.
It is just geography

passenger
06-08-2021, 11:20 PM
I'm a descendant of both the Sephardic Megorashim and the Toshavim in the Maghreb. Sorry but Western Asia isn't the East by definition, unlike Eastern Europe; same goes for the cities on the Pacific Ocean shoreline or in front of the Gibraltar coast. �� I'm using the term "Oriental" because that's the tentative way to describe the warmer climate countries who fell under the arab-islamic conquest.

Please see my comment above. While I think it's appropriate to discuss terminology so that we can understand each other and, if possible, use academically sound terms, this discussion should not move into the realm of sociopolitical commentary, which is against the Terms of Service on Anthrogenica.

I have removed your reference to that article for a reason, please do not re-post it.

Israelite_Wolfman
06-08-2021, 11:51 PM
Mizrachi is definitely "Ashkenormative" in an Israeli context, but I would like to say that its use here it fills a very real need for a term to describe the inter-related communities of the "East", just as we use "Western Jews" to describe the inter-related communities of the "West". As we can see on this PCA, this binary actually describes the genetic landscape of Rabbinical Jewry quite well, with only some groups like Teimanim being truly independent. The upper cluster is Western Jews, with Tunisian/Libyan Jews on one end and Eastern Ashkenazi Jews on the other. The lower cluster is Eastern Jews, with Iraqi Jews on one end and Bukharian Jews on the other. Other groups, like Syrian Jews and Egyptian Karaites, plot in between the two groups, which makes sense if the "central" point relative to east and west is the Levant.

https://ibb.co/6mLhkMB

I'd also like to add that because of lack of a Western Jewish narrative, there is the common belief that Ashkenazim and Sephardim do not share any ancestry beyond Judaean. This is a narrative we try to fight against as we have found just how similar all Western Jews are.



There are lots of Jewish communities that used to exist but don't anymore, and yet all surviving Jewish communities do autosomally fit somewhere into this paradigm I described above. Those of us with Eastern Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry have discussed the potential contribution of "East Kna'anim"- those being the East Slavic-speaking Jews of Eastern Europe that mixed with Eastern Yiddish-speaking Ashkenazim, but no one living today (as much as they might want to claim to be) is an East Kna'ani. I'm sure parallels could be made for smaller historical Jewish communities that, at some point or another, merged into another Jewish group.

Relative to your demographic comment, what are you exactly implying here? That Eastern Ashkenazi Jews have a huge East Kna'anic component? Or a huge convert component? What's your explanation if you believe that such a growth is impossible?

I suggest the former rather than the later. There are records of Jews living throughout Eastern Europe all over the time of the Ashkenazi Jews and even prior to that name's genesis in the Rhineland.

In 1969 Cecil Roth wrote that he estimate the sum of Ashkenazim at the year 1500 at ~150,000 and the Eastern European Jews (Knaanim and others) at ~230,000. I believe his direction as the recent genetic comparisons between "Eastern Ashkenazim" and "Western Ashkenazim" showed the gap to be just as the one of Moroccan Jews and Iraqi Jews. I doubt that anyone buys that "350 Ashkenazim gave birth to all European Jews " 2014 myth anymore.

I know surnames don't count as much but one must ask himself how did Ashkenazi Jews had ones long before the Austro-Hungarian Empire forced the Jews of their domain to bear such, if they all are from the same cloth. Or why do some Rabbis in Poland signed as "Ashkenazi" when in theory they shouldn't be in a need to mention this term if their whole country is filled with only Ashkenazi Jews.

The Ashkenazi Jews arrived at Poland and Lithuania as a chunk. The demographics in the 15th Century shows that there were at least 5000 Pre-Ashkenazim in Poland and over 10,000 in Lithuania; in the 1670s the Polish Jews were at 162,000 and the Lithuanian Jews at a few 10 thousands according to censuses I found through Google Books.

There are documents of Ashkenazi exiles who went to the Russian Empire in the 18th Century and tried to spread Yiddish there where the local Jews were having a hard time with. These Rabbis sent letters with complaints to their peers. Israel Bartal wrote a lot about these issues in Eastern Europe.
Via Mobile

leorcooper19
06-09-2021, 12:07 AM
I suggest the former rather than the later. There are records of Jews living throughout Eastern Europe all over the time of the Ashkenazi Jews and even prior to that name's genesis in the Rhineland.

In 1969 Cecil Roth wrote that he estimate the sum of Ashkenazim at the year 1500 at ~150,000 and the Eastern European Jews (Knaanim and others) at ~230,000. I believe his direction as the recent genetic comparisons between "Eastern Ashkenazim" and "Western Ashkenazim" showed the gap to be just as the one of Moroccan Jews and Iraqi Jews. I doubt that anyone buys that "350 Ashkenazim gave birth to all European Jews " 2014 myth anymore.

The Ashkenazi Jews arrived at Poland and Lithuania as a chunk. The demographics in the 15th Century shows that there were at least 5000 Pre-Ashkenazim in Poland and over 10,000 in Lithuania; in the 1670s the Polish Jews were at 162,000 and the Lithuanian Jews at a few 10 thousands according to censuses I found through Google Books.

There are documents of Ashkenazi exiles who went to the Russian Empire in the 17th Century and tried to spread Yiddish there where the local Jews were having a hard time with. These Rabbis sent letters with complaints to their peers. Israel Bartal wrote a lot about these issues in Eastern Europe.
Via Mobile

Before I respond here, please read this (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14484-Could-Western-Jews-(Ash-and-Seph-)-descend-from-Aegeans-and-Levantine-admixture&p=716852&viewfull=1#post716852) and this (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14484-Could-Western-Jews-(Ash-and-Seph-)-descend-from-Aegeans-and-Levantine-admixture&p=759525&viewfull=1#post759525) section of the megathread on this exact topic and see the responses there. If you still think Eastern Ashkenazi Jews are mostly Knaanim, then we can go forward with your thoughts then.

Israelite_Wolfman
06-09-2021, 12:14 AM
Before I respond here, please read this (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14484-Could-Western-Jews-(Ash-and-Seph-)-descend-from-Aegeans-and-Levantine-admixture&p=759525&viewfull=1#post759525) section of the megathread on this exact topic and see the responses there. If you still think Eastern Ashkenazi Jews are mostly Knaanim, then we can go forward with your thoughts then.

I knew all of that.. BTW The Czech Jewry were part of the Knaanim.

leorcooper19
06-09-2021, 12:15 AM
I knew all of that..

Sorry, see my edit. I linked the wrong section. The relevant section starts at https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14484-Could-Western-Jews-(Ash-and-Seph-)-descend-from-Aegeans-and-Levantine-admixture&p=716919&viewfull=1#post716919

leorcooper19
06-09-2021, 12:22 AM
BTW The Czech Jewry were part of the Knaanim.

They were indeed called Knaanim, but there is an important distinction between West Knaanim in Bohemia and East Knaanim in Ukraine/Belarus/Lithuania. West Knaanim would have merged with Bairish-speaking Jews of Bavaria before then merging with Rhenish Jews, the sum of which would have been the major ancestral population to all Eastern Ashkenazi Jews, and the speakers of early Eastern Yiddish. East Knaanim, on the other hand, would have been the Jews that these Eastern Yiddish speakers would have encountered as they went east.

Speaking of being Ashkenormative, this is pretty off-topic for this thread. Do you mind starting a new one if you would like to have a thorough discussion here? I would certainly be willing to continue. If you're only down for a short discussion, we probably can continue here.

jkotl0327
06-09-2021, 12:24 AM
I suggest the former rather than the later. There are records of Jews living throughout Eastern Europe all over the time of the Ashkenazi Jews and even prior to that name's genesis in the Rhineland.

In 1969 Cecil Roth wrote that he estimate the sum of Ashkenazim at the year 1500 at ~150,000 and the Eastern European Jews (Knaanim and others) at ~230,000. I believe his direction as the recent genetic comparisons between "Eastern Ashkenazim" and "Western Ashkenazim" showed the gap to be just as the one of Moroccan Jews and Iraqi Jews. I doubt that anyone buys that "350 Ashkenazim gave birth to all European Jews " 2014 myth anymore.

The Ashkenazi Jews arrived at Poland and Lithuania as a chunk. The demographics in the 15th Century shows that there were at least 5000 Pre-Ashkenazim in Poland and over 10,000 in Lithuania; in the 1670s the Polish Jews were at 162,000 and the Lithuanian Jews at a few 10 thousands according to censuses I found through Google Books.

There are documents of Ashkenazi exiles who went to the Russian Empire in the 17th Century and tried to spread Yiddish there where the local Jews were having a hard time with. These Rabbis sent letters with complaints to their peers. Israel Bartal wrote a lot about these issues in Eastern Europe.
Via Mobile

Your implication is not supported by historical and genetic evidence. Firstly, the historical.

45097

1569 is around when larger-scale Ashkenazi migration to regions east of Poland began. This gives the population of 4 major regions where Ukrainian Jews lived. You yourself mention 10,000 Jews in Lithuania. I wasn't able to find anything on Roth's numbers but perhaps you can link it. 230,000 as the pre-Ashkenazi population of Eastern European Jewry in 1500 seems like a massive stretch, especially since you then go on to say that there were 5000 "pre-Ashkenazim" in Poland and 10,000 in Lithuania around the same time. Considering there was no mass casualty or migration event for Eastern European Jewry during the 1400s on the scale that would be required to go from a population of 230,000 to a few tens of thousands, and that most historical sources favor the smaller figure, I don't think we should seriously consider this 230,000 figure for an East Knanic population (or East Knanim and others considering there were also relatively few "others" at that time). Most sources, including the one I attached, suggest a large population increase during the 1600s fueled by migration from Ashkenazim in the West. The population could not have increased so rapidly barring massive Ashkenazi migration, completely overwhelming the few remaining East Knanim culturally and genetically. I am well aware that East Knanim speaking slavic languages are attested to in the early 1600s, but that is precisely because by then they were becoming a rarity.

We also cannot ignore the Khmelnitsky massacres of 1648. in Ukraine, where a large proportion of the remaining East Knanim lived, all Jewish communities east of the Dnieper River where destroyed. In the regions of Podolia, Bessarabia and Kiev, there was almost no continuity either. These easternmost regions of Ukraine would've been the most highly concentrated with East Knanim at the time. All of this points to a relatively minor contribution from the few remaining East Knanim post-Khmelnytsky to Eastern Ashkenazi populations, as opposed to Western Ashkenazim, who migrated east of Poland in rather massive numbers all the way until 1750.

Now to the genetics. mot many people believe 350 Ashkenazim gave birth to all European Jews because the Ashkenazi population was probably never that low. All Ashkenazim, western and eastern share uniparentals at frequencies that no other Jewish groups are known to. The most prominent case of this is the "big 4" mtDNAs, K1a1b1a, N1b1b, K2a2a, and K1a9. Autosomally both groups are incredibly similar as well. All the evidence points against a large East Knani component in Eastern Ashkenazim. Western and Eastern Ashkenazi Jews are part of the same Jewish sub-culture and sub-ethnicity, so it's fair to refer to both as Ashkenazi.

Israelite_Wolfman
06-09-2021, 12:42 AM
Your implication is not supported by historical and genetic evidence. Firstly, the historical.

45097

1569 is around when larger-scale Ashkenazi migration to regions east of Poland began. This gives the population of 4 major regions where Ukrainian Jews lived. You yourself mention 10,000 Jews in Lithuania. I wasn't able to find anything on Roth's numbers but perhaps you can link it. 230,000 as the pre-Ashkenazi population of Eastern European Jewry in 1500 seems like a massive stretch, especially since you then go on to say that there were 5000 "pre-Ashkenazim" in Poland and 10,000 in Lithuania around the same time. Considering there was no mass casualty or migration event for Eastern European Jewry during the 1400s on the scale that would be required to go from a population of 230,000 to a few tens of thousands, and that most historical sources favor the smaller figure, I don't think we should seriously consider this 230,000 figure for an East Knanic population (or East Knanim and others considering there were also relatively few "others" at that time). Most sources, including the one I attached, suggest a large population increase during the 1600s fueled by migration from Ashkenazim in the West. The population could not have increased so rapidly barring massive Ashkenazi migration, completely overwhelming the few remaining East Knanim culturally and genetically. I am well aware that East Knanim speaking slavic languages are attested to in the early 1600s, but that is precisely because by then they were becoming a rarity.

We also cannot ignore the Khmelnitsky massacres of 1648. in Ukraine, where a large proportion of the remaining East Knanim lived, all Jewish communities east of the Dnieper River where destroyed. In the regions of Podolia, Bessarabia and Kiev, there was almost no continuity either. These easternmost regions of Ukraine would've been the most highly concentrated with East Knanim at the time. All of this points to a relatively minor contribution from the few remaining East Knanim post-Khmelnytsky to Eastern Ashkenazi populations, as opposed to Western Ashkenazim, who migrated east of Poland in rather massive numbers all the way until 1750.

Now to the genetics. mot many people believe 350 Ashkenazim gave birth to all European Jews because the Ashkenazi population was probably never that low. All Ashkenazim, western and eastern share uniparentals at frequencies that no other Jewish groups are known to. The most prominent case of this is the "big 4" mtDNAs, K1a1b1a, N1b1b, K2a2a, and K1a9. Autosomally both groups are incredibly similar as well. All the evidence points against a large East Knani component in Eastern Ashkenazim. Western and Eastern Ashkenazi Jews are part of the same Jewish sub-culture and sub-ethnicity, so it's fair to refer to both as Ashkenazi.

I'm not near a computer right now so I'll just type, Google Books should apply for the citations. The fact Poland wasn't accepting of Jews in high numbers till the 16th Century isn't disproving Roth's estimation.

I find Shimon Dubnov's ridiculously low demographics for the Jews in Eastern Europe totally made up; most of them may have sat there since the 2nd or 3rd Centuries AD; and grew while Jews migrated to the Khazarian Kingdom &/ fled Byzantium's persecutions, and with later migrations from the Persian and Babylonian collapsing centers of Judaism. I feel like the Eastern European Jews gave up on their real history and seemed to favor some sort of delusion that the Ashkenazim were a "quality seal" so they decided to cling into these folks, kinda like "Mizrahi" (whom this topic is for..) believe they are all "Sephardic". Rite and liturgy aren't equal to genes.

There's a research which showed that the Eastern European Jews' most recent ancestors with the Sephardic and Ashkenazim is from early AD Centuries, and that they descend from Jewish migrants from Northern Italy who went Eastwards and mixed with Southern Russians along the way.. I can go nonstop but that's not what this topic is about.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2964539/

hartaisarlag
06-09-2021, 12:45 AM
I believe his direction as the recent genetic comparisons between "Eastern Ashkenazim" and "Western Ashkenazim" showed the gap to be just as the one of Moroccan Jews and Iraqi Jews.

I don't have access to the relevant stats, but this isn't remotely true. It's true that in the recent past, people did erroneously claim that Eastern and Western Ashkenazim were genetically identical/indistinguishable. While we can now say that there is an average difference, the genetic distance is very small, and I'm 100% confident that it's much smaller than that between Moroccan and Iraqi Jews.

leorcooper19
06-09-2021, 12:47 AM
I'm not near a computer right now so I'll just type, Google Books should apply for the citations. The fact Poland wasn't accepting of Jews in high numbers till the 16th Century isn't disproving Roth's estimation.

I find Shimon Dubnov's ridiculously low demographics for the Jews in Eastern Europe totally made up; most of them may have sat there since the 2nd or 3rd Centuries AD; and grew while Jews migrated to the Khazarian Kingdom &/ fled Byzantium's persecutions, and with later migrations from the Persian and Babylonian collapsing centers of Judaism. I feel like the Eastern European Jews gave up on their real history and seemed to favor some sort of delusion that the Ashkenazim were a "quality seal" so they decided to cling into these folks, kinda like "Mizrahi" (whom this topic is for..) believe they are all "Sephardic". Rite and liturgy aren't equal to genes.

There's a research which showed that the Eastern European Jews' most recent ancestors with the Sephardic and Ashkenazim is from early AD Centuries, and that they descend from Jewish migrants from Northern Italy who went Eastwards and mixed with Southern Russians along the way.. I can go nonstop but that's not what this topic is about.

I'll make a thread for the subject then. See you there.

Israelite_Wolfman
06-09-2021, 12:53 AM
I don't have access to the relevant stats, but this isn't remotely true. It's true that in the recent past, people did erroneously claim that Eastern and Western Ashkenazim were genetically identical/indistinguishable. While we can now say that there is an average difference, the genetic distance is very small, and I'm 100% confident that it's much smaller than that between Moroccan and Iraqi Jews.

Don't be so sure. Graphics: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/467761v1.full
Ctrl+F "not possible": https://www.nature.com/articles/srep08377

jkotl0327
06-09-2021, 12:53 AM
I'm not near a computer right now so I'll just type, Google Books should apply for the citations. The fact Poland wasn't accepting of Jews in high numbers till the 16th Century isn't disproving Roth's estimation.

I find Shimon Dubnov's ridiculously low demographics for the Jews in Eastern Europe totally made up; most of them may have sat there since the 2nd or 3rd Centuries AD; and grew while Jews migrated to the Khazarian Kingdom &/ fled Byzantium's persecutions, and with later migrations from the Persian and Babylonian collapsing centers of Judaism. I feel like the Eastern European Jews gave up on their real history and seemed to favor some sort of delusion that the Ashkenazim were a "quality seal" so they decided to cling into these folks, kinda like "Mizrahi" (whom this topic is for..) believe they are all "Sephardic". Rite and liturgy aren't equal to genes.

There's a research which showed that Eastern European Jews' most recent ancestors with the early AD Centuries Sephardic and Ashkenazim, and that they descend from Jewish migrants from Northern Italy who went Eastwards and mixed with Southern Russians along the way.. I can go nonstop but that's not what this topic is about.

I asked for a link because I couldn't find it, not looking for citations. think I may have realized what's going on here. Has it occurred to you that Cecil Roth may have been including Poland in his population estimates for Eastern European Jews? Poland was in fact accepting Jews in decent numbers since the 1200s, in any case by 1500 Poland, or more accurately what is today modern Poland sans Galicia, would've been Ashkenazi over East Knanic by a large majority. These happen to be Bernard Weinryb, not Dubnov's numbers, but similar numbers are provided by almost every mainstream Jewish historian worth his salt. There is no clear link between any small Jewish communities during the 2nd and 3rd centuries, and modern Eastern European Jews. It is unlikely that Khazars or other Byzantine Jews pre-1500 make up a large proportion of Eastern Ashkenazi ancestry because by the time Ashkenazim arrived on the scene, they would have lost their distinct identity and all been East Knanim, who as I already explained, make up a very small percentage of Eastern Ashkenazi ancestry. Eastern European Jews did not give up our "real history" for a "quality seal," ignoring the historic and genetic evidence that Eastern Ashkenazim originate largely from Western Ashkenazim doesn't make that the case. The continuity you're thinking of simply isn't there. Your oversimplification of Ashkenazi history notwithstanding, since as you say that's not what the topic is about, any "Southern Russian" component in Ashkenazim is incredibly minor, putting that phrase in as a highlight in a one sentence history of Eastern Ashkenazim is not warranted. @moderator since there's a thread for this subject now can my post be moved there? Thank you.

hartaisarlag
06-09-2021, 12:57 AM
Don't be so sure. Graphics: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/467761v1.full
Ctrl+F "not possible": https://www.nature.com/articles/srep08377

Distance to: Ashkenazi_Germany
0.01625140 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.01789883 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.01812899 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.02028566 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.02127231 Ashkenazi_Russia

---

Distance to: Moroccan_Jew
0.03306568 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.04136263 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.04362489 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.04433798 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.04512110 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.04600331 Ashkenazi_Russia
0.07925777 Iraqi_Jew

---

Genetic distance-wise (Global 25), Moroccan Jews are closer to Western and Eastern Ashkenazim than they are to Iraqi Jews.

I am well aware of the two articles you linked. Yes, Eastern Ashkenazim received some unique genetic contributions, including the miniscule East Asian one. It's pretty fascinating. And the latter article is good proof of intra-Ashkenazi substructure, and semi-separate Western Ashkenazi clustering—but the distances are tiny in the scheme of things.

Israelite_Wolfman
06-09-2021, 12:59 AM
I asked for a link because I couldn't find it, not looking for citations. think I may have realized what's going on here. Has it occurred to you that Cecil Roth may have been including Poland in his population estimates for Eastern European Jews? Poland was in fact accepting Jews in decent numbers since the 1200s, in any case by 1500 Poland, or more accurately what is today modern Poland sans Galicia, would've been Ashkenazi over East Knanic by a large majority. These happen to be Bernard Weinryb, not Dubnov's numbers, but similar numbers are provided by almost every mainstream Jewish historian worth his salt. There is no clear link between any small Jewish communities during the 2nd and 3rd centuries, and modern Eastern European Jews. It is unlikely that Khazars or other Byzantine Jews pre-1500 make up a large proportion of Eastern Ashkenazi ancestry because by the time Ashkenazim arrived on the scene, they would have lost their distinct identity and all been East Knanim, who as I already explained, make up a very small percentage of Eastern Ashkenazi ancestry. Eastern European Jews did not give up our "real history" for a "quality seal," ignoring the historic and genetic evidence that Eastern Ashkenazim originate largely from Western Ashkenazim doesn't make that the case. The continuity you're thinking of simply isn't there. Your oversimplification of Ashkenazi history notwithstanding, since as you say that's not what the topic is about, any "Southern Russian" component in Ashkenazim is incredibly minor, putting that phrase in as a highlight in a one sentence history of Eastern Ashkenazim is not warranted. @moderator since there's a thread for this subject now can my post be moved there? Thank you.

Wanna play this game of "they would have lost their identity and blend in" with the back at the day Pre-Sephardic Jews who were totally absorbed into a smaller number of Sephardic Jews? "Mizrahim" fell for it as well as the Romaniotes.

jkotl0327
06-09-2021, 01:17 AM
Wanna play this game of "they would have lost their identity and blend in" with the back at the day Pre-Sephardic Jews who were totally absorbed into a smaller number of Sephardic Jews? "Mizrahim" fell for it as well as the Romaniotes.

The situations clearly did not have the same outcome. There are a variety of reasons for this. For one, East Knanim were the earlier population of Jews there. They didn't have the experience of migrating and all settling in a few relatively defined areas, they lived in small, disparate communities throughout Eastern Europe. Secondly, we can go back to the religious prestige point, or as you called it, "quality seal". Just as Sefardim were viewed as the religiously prestigious population, so were Ashkenazim, East Knanim had no reason not to assimilate into the greater Ashkenazi population unlike the case with Sefardim and Mizrachim, the difference is that the East Knanim were a much, much smaller population than the Ashkenazim which was not the case for Mizrachim. Thirdly, the Khmelnytsky massacres played a role. A lot of the communities that were likely majority Knanic were destroyed in the massacres, and places with both Ashkenazi and Knanic populations possibly living in distinct communities were uprooted. The situation created tens of thousands of refugees, and saw a massive reorganization of communities, as well as more large-scale migration from Ashkenazim West -> East in the decades afterwards. This shared experience of communal disruption for those Ashkenazim and Knanim greatly killed off already dying cultural distinctions between the two. The refugees from Ukraine not only resettled there in reorganized communities, but formed entirely new communities in the North (Belarus and Lithuania) where there was no evidence post-1648 of such cultural distinctions, as well as Ottoman Turkey and Western Ashkenaz (Germany/Poland), we certainly don't here of distinct Knanic communities there. You're trying to compare two situations that have aren't at all analogous to one another, shaped by widely differing circumstances.

leorcooper19
06-09-2021, 02:21 AM
Don't be so sure. Graphics: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/467761v1.full
Ctrl+F "not possible": https://www.nature.com/articles/srep08377

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?23992-Eastern-Ashkenazi-Jews-and-the-medieval-Kna-anim&p=776946#post776946

Israelite_Wolfman
06-09-2021, 08:39 AM
The situations clearly did not have the same outcome. There are a variety of reasons for this. For one, East Knanim were the earlier population of Jews there. They didn't have the experience of migrating and all settling in a few relatively defined areas, they lived in small, disparate communities throughout Eastern Europe. Secondly, we can go back to the religious prestige point, or as you called it, "quality seal". Just as Sefardim were viewed as the religiously prestigious population, so were Ashkenazim, East Knanim had no reason not to assimilate into the greater Ashkenazi population unlike the case with Sefardim and Mizrachim, the difference is that the East Knanim were a much, much smaller population than the Ashkenazim which was not the case for Mizrachim. Thirdly, the Khmelnytsky massacres played a role. A lot of the communities that were likely majority Knanic were destroyed in the massacres, and places with both Ashkenazi and Knanic populations possibly living in distinct communities were uprooted. The situation created tens of thousands of refugees, and saw a massive reorganization of communities, as well as more large-scale migration from Ashkenazim West -> East in the decades afterwards. This shared experience of communal disruption for those Ashkenazim and Knanim greatly killed off already dying cultural distinctions between the two. The refugees from Ukraine not only resettled there in reorganized communities, but formed entirely new communities in the North (Belarus and Lithuania) where there was no evidence post-1648 of such cultural distinctions, as well as Ottoman Turkey and Western Ashkenaz (Germany/Poland), we certainly don't here of distinct Knanic communities there. You're trying to compare two situations that have aren't at all analogous to one another, shaped by widely differing circumstances.

**This will be my last post on this subject.**

Nice hypothesis, but as I put it: it's all a theory in which you ignored the factors of recorded large scale migrations of Eastern European Jews to Central and Western Europe for 4 Centuries, causing the rise of their label as "Mizrahim/Ostjuden" in the first place by the local Jews. It will also explain the "clustering"/"affinity" of these WEJ and EEJ in most cases rather than a common Ashkenazi from Rash'is era and place ancestry. Archaeogenetics is the tool that will solve this puzzle.

Also, when I was talking about communities who adopted the Sephardic rite with 0 to a few Sephardic Jews to have arrived there I was talking about the Diasporas of Iraq and Persia who became such in a process that took place in the 18th Century by 50 Sephardic Jewish families (I'm only sure of their leader's Sephardic ancestry due to his surname, Laniado) who migrated there from Aleppo, Syria to fill in for the dying heads of the community (mostly in formerly Babylonia and later a few of them moved in to Persia); or the case of the Uzbeki Jews who in the 19th Century were caught in the "crossroad" of either accepting the Yemenite Jewish rite or the Sephardic one, which was promoted by a Moroccan born rabbi; they chose the latter.

I am waiting for anyone who can get this "Mizrahi" topic back to its track in the meantime.

Erikl86
06-09-2021, 09:13 AM
I'm a descendant of both the Sephardic Megorashim and the Toshavim in the Maghreb; and of the Western Asian Jewry.

Sorry but Western Asia isn't the East by definition, unlike Eastern Europe; same goes for the cities on the Pacific Ocean shoreline or in front of the Gibraltar coast. :)

I'm using the term "Oriental" because that's the tentative way to describe the warmer climate countries who fell under the arab-islamic conquest.

I didn't like that someone had removed an entire paragraph from my statement. It was an historic background piece. Babylonian Jews refer to themselves as "Centralite Jews" and not "Mizrahi/Easterners " in the Cairo Genizah.

Check out the following map, representing the nascent of Jewish diaspora during the Second Temple era. You'll understand intuitively why Mizrahi, aka "Eastern" in English, is a perfect fitting for the Jewish diaspora with it's origins in Babylonian Jewry, vs. Western is a pretty fitting adjective to the progenitors of modern Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Maghrebi, Italki and Romaniote diaspora communities. It simply denotes that Mizrahim evolved from the diaspora East of Jerusalem/Judea, while Western Jews evolved from the diaspora West of Jerusalem/Judea. That's all.

The cultural and linguistic differences also originate from this geographic location; the ancestors of Western Jews spoke mostly Greek and many were influenced by the Graeco-Roman culture, while the ancestors of the Mizrahi Jews spoke mostly Aramaic.

P.S.
The green area is a buffer zone right around Judea where both Aramaic and Hellenistic Jewish cultures mixed.

45111

Israelite_Wolfman
06-09-2021, 09:20 AM
Check out the following map, representing the nascent of Jewish diaspora during the Second Temple era. You'll understand intuitively why Mizrahi, aka "Eastern" in English, is a perfect fitting for the Jewish diaspora with it's origins in Babylonian Jewry, vs. Western is a pretty fitting adjective to the progenitors of modern Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Maghrebi, Italki and Romaniote diaspora communities. It simply denotes that Mizrahim evolved from the diaspora East of Jerusalem/Judea, while Western Jews evolved from the diaspora West of Jerusalem/Judea. That's all.

The cultural and linguistic differences also originate from this geographic location; the ancestors of Western Jews spoke mostly Greek and many were influenced by the Graeco-Roman culture, while the ancestors of the Mizrahi Jews spoke mostly Aramaic.

P.S.
The green area is a buffer zone right around Judea where both Aramaic and Hellenistic Jewish cultures mixed.

45111

Sugarcoating it won't change the fact it was formed as a separatist derogatory term; it didn't started amongst the Western Asian Jewish Diasporas nor among the North African Jewish Diasporas.
People like the Egyptian Jews or Lebanese Jews went there directly from Israel; so how would you call them? "Tzfoni Jews" and "Drom Maaravi Jews "?

Erikl86
06-09-2021, 10:25 AM
Sugarcoating it won't change the fact it was formed as a separatist derogatory term; it didn't started amongst the Western Asian Jewish Diasporas nor among the North African Jewish Diasporas.
People like the Egyptian Jews or Lebanese Jews went there directly from Israel; so how would you call them? "Tzfoni Jews" and "Drom Maaravi Jews "?

I disagree; the term "Mizrahi", or "Mashriqi" in Arabic, was used by Mizrahi Jews in the past to denote the difference between their communities and, for instance, North African communities (which were called Maghrebi, literally mean "Western"). Also, East European Ashkenazim were called Ostjuden, or Mizrahi Jews in German, by West European Ashkenazim; and while it was derogatory, it wasn't referred to Mizrahi Jews in Iraq, Iran etc.

And last but not least, Rabbi Yehuda HaLevi himself, the famous medieval Sephardic Rabbi living in Moorish Spain, wrote the now immortal phrase לבי במזרח ואנוכי בסוף מערב - referring to the Land of Israel, arguably located in Western Asia, as being in the "East".

And in any case, all of this is besides the point. Here in the population genetics world we use this term exactly as I, and others here in this thread, described it; and in that use, North African Jews which in Israel are considered Mizrahim, aren't Mizrahi Jews; and Yemenite Jews are also not Mizrahi Jews, while all Sephardim ARE Western Jews along their closely tied genetic sibling population - Ashkenazi Jews.

I think it's best to leave out the personal connotations you attribute to this term when discussing genetics here on AG.

Israelite_Wolfman
06-09-2021, 12:51 PM
I disagree; the term "Mizrahi", or "Mashriqi" in Arabic, was used by Mizrahi Jews in the past to denote the difference between their communities and, for instance, North African communities (which were called Maghrebi, literally mean "Western"). Also, East European Ashkenazim were called Ostjuden, or Mizrahi Jews in German, by West European Ashkenazim; and while it was derogatory, it wasn't referred to Mizrahi Jews in Iraq, Iran etc.

And last but not least, Rabbi Yehuda HaLevi himself, the famous medieval Sephardic Rabbi living in Moorish Spain, wrote the now immortal phrase לבי במזרח ואנוכי בסוף מערב - referring to the Land of Israel, arguably located in Western Asia, as being in the "East".

And in any case, all of this is besides the point. Here in the population genetics world we use this term exactly as I, and others here in this thread, described it; and in that use, North African Jews which in Israel are considered Mizrahim, aren't Mizrahi Jews; and Yemenite Jews are also not Mizrahi Jews, while all Sephardim ARE Western Jews along their closely tied genetic sibling population - Ashkenazi Jews.

I think it's best to leave out the personal connotations you attribute to this term when discussing genetics here on AG.

"Mizrah" = "East" in Hebrew. It's only logical that Rabbi Yehuda HaLevi would use it in a Hebrew literature.
"Mizrahi" on the other hand is a tossed-off "Ostjuden" directed at the Jews who were in exile in what had became the "arab/muslim world". That's why it's the 3rd most common Jewish surname in Israel, MAPAI clerks had changed many Jewish surnames into it to label people as the new Ostjuden.

Erikl86
06-09-2021, 01:12 PM
"Mizrah" = "East" in Hebrew. It's only logical that Rabbi Yehuda HaLevi would use it in a Hebrew literature.
"Mizrahi" on the other hand is a tossed-off "Ostjuden" directed at the Jews who were in exile in what had became the "arab/muslim world". That's why it's the 3rd most common Jewish surname in Israel, MAPAI clerks had changed many Jewish surnames into it to label people as the new Ostjuden.

Right, so as you can see, just as in the case of HaLevi, in Hebrew, West Asia can sometimes be refer to East (of something) ;) .

In Arabic it's also Mishraqi, which is a term Mizrahi Jews used to denote themselves centuries before MAPAI even existed.

I ask you to view the term as a correct geographic term. You want to use the term "Eastern" Jews instead of Mizrahi, then go ahead.

You won't find knowledgeable members here claiming that Moroccan Jews are Mizrahi Jews, while in Israel, they are considered as such (in many ways the poster Jewish community of Mizrahim). And just as no one here means to insult or offend East European Ashkenazim by calling them Eastern Ashkenazi Jews (EAJs), I think again, we should leave this social baggage outside in this discussion. The name "Mizrahi" for Jews which descend from the diaspora that was exiled Mizrah, aka as Babylonian Jewry, is suitable and more than reasonable.

passenger
06-09-2021, 01:25 PM
"Mizrah" = "East" in Hebrew. It's only logical that Rabbi Yehuda HaLevi would use it in a Hebrew literature.
"Mizrahi" on the other hand is a tossed-off "Ostjuden" directed at the Jews who were in exile in what had became the "arab/muslim world". That's why it's the 3rd most common Jewish surname in Israel, MAPAI clerks had changed many Jewish surnames into it to label people as the new Ostjuden.

This discussion is moot. We've already established what we mean by "Mizra(c)hi" for the purposes of this thread. The purpose of using the term is precisely to open up a specific space to discuss the genetics of a specific group of Jews who are not often contemplated in the spaces that we've already alotted to the discussion of, for instance, Sephardic Jews, or "Western Jews" more broadly (by which, as we've established, we mean Ashkenazim and Sephardim together, in the sense that they very broadly belong to a common branch of the diaspora which is historically and genetically divergent from a specific "Eastern" branch, though not without overlaps). This is a much needed space for our purposes, precisely to avoid glossing over these distinctions. "Mizrachi" is an acceptable term in this context and I see no reason to abandon its use or change the title of the thread. This discussion has run its course. Let's get on with the business of discussing "Mizrachi" genetics, just as we discuss "Sephardic" genetics in the Sephardic threads. Further posts on this subject will be considered off topic and will be deleted.

corporateghost
07-02-2021, 02:03 AM
First I'd like to thank Davidski for converting the samples to G25. This couldn't happen without his help. Here is a PCA of every Mizrachi group (some may not be in the official sheet yet and credit goes to Agamemnon for making the PCA):

44615

You'll notice 2 Kurdish Jewish groups. All known so far is that the set of Kurdish Jews seems to split into 2 clusters. Best guess is that the 2 clusters represent Iranian and Iraqi Kurdish Jews (first pointed out by Erikl86). The reason there are separate labels for Azeri and Mountain Jews is simply because they haven't been edited yet. It's really Azeri Jews and North Caucasian Jews. Both groups are Mountain Jews.

In addition, here is a breakdown of Mumbai Jews (likely Bene Israel) and Cochin Jews:

Credit for the Cochin Jew model goes to LeosLake:

Target: Cochin_Jew
Distance: 1.2381% / 0.01238078
48.8 Piramalai
26.0 Bengali_Bangladesh
25.2 Iranian_Jew

Target: Mumbai_Jew
Distance: 1.3068% / 0.01306803 | R2P
58.0 Uttar_Pradesh
42.0 Iranian_Jew

So based on this the Bene Israel seem to be about half Mizrachi Jewish and half native South Asian while Cochin Jews are mostly South Asian with some distant Jewish as well. Historically has there been much intermarriage between these two communities?

Also how far do they both plot in comparison to their immediate closest non Jewish neighbors?