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drobbah
05-16-2021, 06:19 PM
Abstract
The Indian Ocean trade in the Horn of Africa during the Middle Ages has received much less attention than in other regions of the Islamic world, such as the Gulf and East Africa. The Horn is still too often represented as a void in maps showing routes and distributions of trade goods. In this article we present the results of archaeological surveys conducted between 2016 and 2020 in places of trade around Berbera, one of the main Red Sea ports in Somaliland. We will be focusing on the period comprised between the eleventh century, when the first traces of long distance connections are documented, and the late sixteenth century, when commerce collapsed. We will review the archaeological evidence with particular attention to ceramic imports, which reveal the intense participation of Somaliland (and the Horn at large) in the Indian Ocean system. This participation went through different cycles in which the nature of commercial relations, the volume of imported goods and their provenance varied. However, trade with Asia was always predominant, amounting, in the case of ceramics, to 90% of all imported items. Our surveys also suggest that Somaliland was not so much a destination as a transit market zone that conveyed products to the interior of the Horn of Africa.


https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S2352226721000350-gr1_lrg.jpg

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352226721000350#s0005

drobbah
05-16-2021, 07:57 PM
Biyo Gure is enigmatic for other reasons. Two things are unique of this site: on the one hand, this is the only permanent settlement with stone architecture located so far in the Guban, the torrid coastal plain of Somaliland. All other sites were found in the mountains, the escarpment or the inland plateau. On the other hand, the extraordinary amount of imports, which is similar to Farhad of Siyaara, is much superior not only to similar sites inland, but also to very large towns. In fact, if we only had the assemblage to decide on the nature of the site, we would have said that it was a market, not a settlement. It cannot be totally ruled out that the people of Biyo Gure were not local, but foreign merchants that settled in this strategic locale. Whoever they were, the inhabitants of the site combined cultivation and trading activities, making the most of the agricultural potential of the surroundings and of the privileged location near Berbera


The settlement of Biyo Gure was short-lived. There is nothing that can be dated before 1400 or after 1600 and an end date during the first half of the sixteenth century is the most likely. The end of the site is enigmatic but obvious: three of the houses show clear traces of destruction by fire. We conducted shovel tests in two of them and found thick (0.40 m) layers of ashes, charcoal, charred branches from the roof, and the burnt pavement covered with broken pottery, glass and jars. A third structure (no. 1) was washed away but we could document many fragments of charcoal on the surface, which indicates that it met a similar end. It is very likely that other buildings in the central part of the site were also burnt, the traces erased by erosion. The three buildings with evidence of fire are located far apart, so it is reasonable to infer that the site as a whole had a violent end. Who destroyed Biyo Gure? It is difficult to say, as the sixteenth century was one of turmoil, with nomad invasions, civil conflict, war with Ethiopia and Portuguese and Ottoman intervention.

Somalis noticed weakness in the Muslim kingdoms (who used to recruit them as military muscle or mercenaries) enter from the East and perhaps started raiding these settled peoples? The vast majority of the farming settlements and towns in Western & Central Somaliland were not fortified with the exception of Qalcadda (a state-sponsored caravanserai) which was meant to safeguard the caravans arriving from the coast in Berbera from the nomadic raiding Somalis.

Awale
05-16-2021, 08:44 PM
Somalis noticed weakness in the Muslim kingdoms (who used to recruit them as military muscle or mercenaries) enter from the East and perhaps started raiding these settled peoples? The vast majority of the farming settlements and towns in Western & Central Somaliland were not fortified with the exception of Qalcadda (a state-sponsored caravanserai) which was meant to safeguard the caravans arriving from the coast in Berbera from the nomadic raiding Somalis.

I'd seen you say this sort of thing years ago and I don't know where you get this, walaal. There's no historical evidence anywhere that "Muslim kingdoms" like Adal were some foreign entity and Somalis were just mercenaries or something. In fact, the picture you get from reading historical accounts going back to the 1100s-1300s or so is that Somalis were always clearly the majority in coastal towns like Zeila where people like Battuta point out that there are many camels slaughtered there and the people are the same people who live all the way down to Mogadishu (dark-skinned herders of camels and sheep he calls "Berbera"). And this is the same picture you get during the early modern era like in Richard Burton's book (https://archive.org/details/firstfootstepsin00rich). There usually wasn't any need to really "defend" against nomads in regards to trade caravans. The go-to was usually to make alliances and truces with them like how the Harari Emir in the 1800s married a local Bartire Somali chieftain's daughter:


The Berteri, who occupy the Gurays Range, south of, and limitrophe to, the Gallas, and thence extend eastward to the Jigjiga hills, are estimated at 3000 shields. Of Darud origin, they own allegiance to the Gerad Hirsi, and were, when I visited the country, on bad terms with the Girhi. The chief’s family has, for several generations, been connected with the Amirs of Harar, and the caravan’s route to and from Berberah lying through his country, makes him a useful friend and a dangerous foe. About the Gerad Hirsi different reports were rife: some described him as cruel, violent, and avaricious; others spoke of him as a godly and a prayerful person: all, however, agreed that he had sowed wild oats. In token of repentance, he was fond of feeding Widads, and the Shaykh Jami of Harar was a frequent guest at his kraal.

The Amir Ahmed’s health is infirm (Amir of Harar). Some attribute his weakness to a fall from a horse, others declare him to have been poisoned by one of his wives.30 I judged him consumptive. Shortly after my departure he was upon the point of death, and he afterwards sent for a physician to Aden. He has four wives. No. 1. is the daughter of the Gerad Hirsi; No. 2. a Sayyid woman of Harar; No. 3. an emancipated slave girl; and No. 4. a daughter of Gerad Abd el Majid, one of his nobles. He has two sons, who will probably never ascend the throne; one is an infant, the other is a boy now about five years old.

Honestly, I think "empires" like Adal are somewhat overblown. I doubt northern Somali territory was ever not how it appeared to the Greeks in the 1st century AD and how it again appeared in the Early Modern Era. Always a smattering of coastal city-states that controlled some hinterland towns where it clearly seems there was some notable Southern Ethiosemitic (https://www.academia.edu/5529034/2013_Strata_in_Semitic_loanwords_in_Northern_Somal i) presence and large swathes of tribal land run by chieftains and Xeer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xeer). Adal was probably just a very influential polity centered in Zeila but I doubt it was quite as concrete a "kingdom" as what you see in feudal Japan or Western Europe, for instance.

drobbah
05-16-2021, 09:51 PM
I'd seen you say this sort of thing years ago and I don't know where you get this, walaal. There's no historical evidence anywhere that "Muslim kingdoms" like Adal were some foreign entity and Somalis were just mercenaries or something.
Somali oral history points to Sanaag as the medieval origin of majority of the Somali clans and the Futuh Al Habasha consistently showed that Somalis were nothing more than a nomadic camel herding periphery people.Yes certain clans lived within the Sultanate during the Imam's time including my own but it is clear the Walashma dynasty and many of the elites of these muslim states were not of Somali origin.I think what the Futuh called the clans of Harla lived there, this explains the animosity the Harlas had for Somalis in particular.The Imam did all he could to keep these two ethnic groups away from each other.Multiple times in the Futuh the animosity between these two groups comes up




In fact, the picture you get from reading historical accounts going back to the 1100s-1300s or so is that Somalis were always clearly the majority in coastal towns like Zeila where people like Battuta point out that there are many camels slaughtered there and the people are the same people who live all the way down to Mogadishu (dark-skinned herders of camels and sheep he calls "Berbera"). And this is the same picture you get during the early modern era like in Richard Burton's book (https://archive.org/details/firstfootstepsin00rich). There usually wasn't any need to really "defend" against nomads in regards to trade caravans. The go-to was usually to make alliances and truces with them like how the Harari Emir in the 1800s married a local Bartire Somali chieftain's daughter:

Camels are not everyday meat in the Horn. These animals are slaughtered “on feast days, religious occasions of special significance, and for the important occasions of births, marriages and deaths only.This suggests Ibn Battuta came during a medieval trade fair which probably attracted nomadic Somalis from the east but also different folks in the region (like the possibly Ethio-Semitic Harla).Also it is very likely non-Somali (Cushitic or heavlily Cushitic admixed) population lived in Zeila and Ibn Battuta wouldn't be able to differentiate between the different Horners, there's also no evidence that modern clans like Cisse,Samarone or Habar Awal are indigenous to this region and this falls in line with our own oral history.


There usually wasn't any need to really "defend" against nomads in regards to trade caravans.
Not true as I come from a clan (Jibriil Abokor) who were notorious for banditry and raiding caravans due to our strategic position in between Harar & Berbera and is one of the reasons why the Abyssinians in the 19th century built a fort at Jigjiga.Raiding is a normal part of Somali nomadic culture and nomads in others parts of the world.Settled populations in particular are very vulnerable to raiding by nomads without a state protecting them.
https://i.postimg.cc/T2LFW65x/ffrrrrfff.png
http://i.imgur.com/iflSWI2.jpg


Qalcadda fort is the only medieval fort in Somaliland and this was discovered by StateHorn (an EU funded project).


Qalcadda is exceptional for many reasons. Not only it is the only caravanserai with a plan similar to those from the Middle East having found so far in Subsaharan Africa, but it is also a clear example of the close cultural and economic relationships between Somaliland, Arabia and the Middle East during the Middle Ages. Its importance also derives from its symbolism as a state initiative. Although there are several villages and other settlements around Qalcadda, their small size and the isolation of the caravan station makes it unlikely that it was a private enterprise, as it often happened in the Middle East. Qalcadda thus probably represents one of the few material examples known so far of strategies used by the Sultanate of Adal to reassert its control upon the region, either directly or through proxies.






[CENTER]
Honestly, I think "empires" like Adal are somewhat overblown. I doubt northern Somali territory was ever not how it appeared to the Greeks in the 1st century AD and how it again appeared in the Early Modern Era. Always a smattering of coastal city-states that controlled some hinterland towns where it clearly seems there was some notable Southern Ethiosemitic (https://www.academia.edu/5529034/2013_Strata_in_Semitic_loanwords_in_Northern_Somal i) presence and large swathes of tribal land run by chieftains and Xeer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xeer). Adal was probably just a very influential polity centered in Zeila but I doubt it was quite as concrete a "kingdom" as what you see in feudal Japan or Western Europe, for instance.
The coast never really had any permanent settlements besides Zeila and anyone who has been to the coast would know why. Which is why majority of the medieval settlements are near mountains and places suitable for agriculture (dry river beds that turn into rivers during the raining season like my ancestral tribal home of Arabsiyo).Aw-Barkhadle which was the site of the forefather of the Walashma dynasty for example was probably fortified and quite large according to Mire.


Temporary trading fairs between nomads and foreigners in places near Berbera (Bandar Cabbas,Buluxaar etc) and in Sanaag like the city of Xiis.I think the vast majority of these farming locals in western & central Somaliland and the skilled city folks were not Somali, perhaps after Adal collapsed these populations were absorbed by the waves of even more migrating Somalis.Also farming and craftmanship was something Somalis culturally had disdain for and the vast majority of clans in Western Somaliland and Fafaan region only became semi-nomadic cultivators within the last 2 or 3 centuries.I never denied the presence of Somalis clans within the sultanate of Adal but they were not an important factor besides taking sides in civil wars between the muslim elite as mercenaries.


Here's an interesting quote from a paper published by StateHorn on medieval Somaliland:

Two of these influences in Somaliland were trade and religion. The specific
seasonal patterns of Somaliland favour the presence of nomadic populations by
the coast at a moment when the monsoon winds allow the arrival of ships in
and out of the Red Sea (González-Ruibal & Torres 2018: 4), and that coincidence
has settled the bases for a long tradition of trading seasonal gatherings and fairs
which has lasted until the 19th century (Cruttenden 1849: 54-55). In a coast where
Zeila was the only permanent trading centre during the Middle Ages, these seasonal markets were not just a resource for the nomads: they were a key factor in the
economy of the Ifat and Adal sultanates, which had in trade one of their strategic
sources of wealth and influence (Pankhurst 1961: 346-350). The second key reference for the seasonal movements were the sanctuaries which acted as aggregation centres for the nomads. The excavation of one of these sites has proved the
continuation of many pagan traditions well into the 14th century, when Islam was
well consolidated in the region (González-Ruibal & Torres 2018: 14).

Awale
05-16-2021, 10:05 PM
Somali oral history points to Sanaag as the medieval origin of majority of the Somali clans and the Futuh Al Habasha consistently showed that Somalis were nothing more than a nomadic camel herding periphery people.Yes certain clans lived within the Sultanate during the Imam's time including my own but it is clear the Walashma dynasty and many of the elites of these muslim states were not of Somali origin.I think what the Futuh called the clans of Harla lived there, this explains the animosity the Harlas had for Somalis in particular.The Imam did all he could to keep these two ethnic groups away from each other.Multiple times in the Futuh the animosity between these two groups comes up.

I've read the Futuh and it does not imply what you're saying about demographics. Somalis were not some irrelevant periphery people when dealing with the Adal at all. The Imam you just referenced himself had married his sister off to a Somali chieftain. Is that something you would do for a periphery, not very relevant people? And, walaal... most of the northwest despite its greater fertility is still very arid. It would not support some large agricultural population that could control nomadic Somalis. As for the nucleus point of Somalis being Sanaag I agree with that but it was not as recent as 500 years. I don't see any proof for that.

And there is no genetic evidence for what you're saying. Northwestern Somalis don't really look different in terms of auDNA from the folks to their east or even their south for the most part and the uniparental difference does not skew in the direction of Ethiosemites. Even the South-Arabian in northwestern Somalis is found in their northeastern and southern fellow Somalis. How did such a large population of people just disappear with no genetic impact whatsoever? What you're saying would honestly make a lot of sense if we were Afars. Afars so far actually show a lot of auDNA overlap with Highland Ethiopians like Habeshas and also a lot of Y-DNA overlap too. Northwestern Somalis? Not really.

Finally, it's strange that you don't mention that there were clearly always coastal settlements and inland towns even in Sanaag and Bari to the far east of the northern Somali region just like there was in the northwest. The northwest was just more dense due to its greater fertility. There was always, like there clearly was in the classical era and the early modern era, a subset of coastal Cushites who indulged in fishing, sailing and merchant work and coalesced in coastal towns and a few inland ones as well. This was true even in arid Bari which as far east as it gets from the regions you're talking about in the northwest:



Of a total population of 82,653 for the Mijertein region, 59,554 are pastoralist, 5,297 agriculturalist-pastoralist, 920 sedentary cultivators, 9,692 fishermen and sailors, and 3,097 merchants. - Peoples of the Horn of Africa: Somali, Afar and Saho (https://drive.google.com/file/d/16JZ_J97Krn6pWh0nvYMpActnt3EqTJOX/view)


Not true as I come from a clan (Jibriil Abokor) who were notorious for banditry and raiding caravans due to our strategic position in between Harar & Berbera and is one of the reasons why the Abyssinians in the 19th century built a fort at Jigjiga.Raiding is a normal part of Somali nomadic culture and nomads in others parts of the world.Settled populations in particular are very vulnerable to raiding by nomads without a state protecting them.



Qalcadda fort is the only medieval fort in Somaliland and this was discovered by StateHorn (an EU funded project).

I just showed you proof of what I was talking about? Are you just going to gloss over the source? Yes, nomads raided. That's obviously true but my point was that in a lot of cases the strategy was to deal with them through alliances and truces like what was going on during the 17-1800s which is probably why a lot of these towns didn't need to be walled. As long as you didn't earn the ire of the clans along your trade route you should be fine and if you did... You get the picture.


Camels are not everyday meat in the Horn. These animals are slaughtered “on feast days, religious occasions of special significance, and for the important occasions of births, marriages and deaths only.This suggests Ibn Battuta came during a medieval trade fair which probably attracted nomadic Somalis from the east but also different folks in the region (like the possibly Ethio-Semitic Harla).Also it is very likely non-Somali (Cushitic or heavlily Cushitic admixed) population lived in Zeila and Ibn Battuta wouldn't be able to differentiate between the different Horners, there's also no evidence that modern clans like Cisse,Samarone or Habar Awal are indigenous to this region and this falls in line with our own oral history.

A lot of speculation on your part, walaal. Medieval Arab scholars were pretty aware of the difference between Habeshas and Somalis ("Berbers"). I think they would have noticed that the people in places like Sanaag and Koonfur were very different from folks around Waqooyi and Awdal if that was truly the case and not lumped them together as Ibn Battuta does when he says all the Berbera people are "herders of camels and sheep". Especially considering that they traded and for periods of time settled among these peoples. But I don't disagree about the camel consumption. I've pointed out on this forum for people myself (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?17953-The-territories-of-the-Somali-clans-and-their-historic-migrations-and-wanderings&p=679991#post679991) that goats and sheep were always the main meat animals for Somalis. But one other interesting thing worth noting is that when Ibn Battuta goes to Mogadishu, where he actually stayed for a time, he notes the same practice of slaughtering camels in its alleyways. And also, Ethiosemitic folks are not known for being coastal settling people who use sewn boats like Somalis (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jm6JzlJZZ0b4zWgRdxH71JYse_Kf-s3S/view) and fish and whatnot outside of Tigres and Tigrinyas. They are chiefly a hinterland people, especially Southern-Ethiosemites. Meanwhile we know for sure that Somalis have indulged in coastal settling, fishing and sailings for centuries.


Temporary trading fairs between nomads and foreigners in places near Berbera (Bandar Cabbas,Buluxaar etc) and in Sanaag like the city of Xiis.I think the vast majority of these farming locals in western & central Somaliland and the skilled city folks were not Somali, perhaps after Adal collapsed these populations were absorbed by the waves of even more migrating Somalis.Also farming and craftmanship was something Somalis culturally had disdain for and the vast majority of clans in Western Somaliland and Fafaan region only became semi-nomadic cultivators within the last 2 or 3 centuries.I never denied the presence of Somalis clans within the sultanate of Adal but they were not an important factor besides taking sides in civil wars between the muslim elite as mercenaries.

The odd thing is that you don't seem to know that the expanding Somalis I've seen you talking about in other threads which I admit I kinda brought into fashion myself with an old post of mine were most certainly agro-pastoralists. Heck, I used to talk to Lank about this nearly a decade ago. It's been known for a long, long time that Proto-Somali (the ancestor of Af-Maay and Af-Maxaa (https://i.imgur.com/uaZCrWN.png)) clearly had an agricultural vocabulary (https://escholarship.org/content/qt450167x3/qt450167x3.pdf?t=mnip12) and that early Somalis were therefore familiar with farming as well as pastoralism. So no, it wouldn't have been far-fetched for them to be sedentary farmers in these areas the same way they have been such over recent centuries. And if I've seen DNA results for the craftsman groups you're talking about they pretty much look like normal Somalis except for one I recently saw who had some "Ethiopian" in him but that was known to him and his family as recent maternal line admixture.

Mirix
05-16-2021, 10:42 PM
Somalis noticed weakness in the Muslim kingdoms (who used to recruit them as military muscle or mercenaries) enter from the East and perhaps started raiding these settled peoples? The vast majority of the farming settlements and towns in Western & Central Somaliland were not fortified with the exception of Qalcadda (a state-sponsored caravanserai) which was meant to safeguard the caravans arriving from the coast in Berbera from the nomadic raiding Somalis.

First of all most of the Muslim leaders and the population in North-Western regions was Somali if not all and they recruited nomads mainly during the Futuh wars. Because they needed the man power and the numbers.

The site of Biyo Gure seeing as there have been traces of fire and burns, it's most likely one of the many sites burned down and bombarded by the Portuguese at the turn of the 16th century and abandoned following the decline of trade. As they were bombing and destroying many coastal cities and settlements around the Somali peninsuala. Clearly not signs of raids by nomads

Berbera and Zeila were both bombed and sacked by the Portugese. . That site is near Berbera


According to archeological evidence the urban dwellers and pastoralists were living in relatively peaceful collaboration with eachother. Were dependant on eachother. And the nomads themselves were integrated in the state.
Built on diversity: Statehood in Medieval Somaliland (12th-16th centuries AD) (https://statehorn.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Jorge20de20Torres-Built20on20diversity.pdf)


Leaving aside these examples, the bulk of the trade in Somaliland was conducted all along the coast at trading posts such as Siyara, Farhad or Heis (González-Ruibal and Torres 2018). We don’t know if caravans from the interior would arrive to trade to the coast or if the nomad communities would conduct the trade themselves, but what it’s incontestable is that nomads were fundamental for the proper functioning and stability of the trade routes in Somaliland. Either allowing the pass through their territories, providing guide and protection or acting as traders themselves, commerce would have been impossible without their participation and collaboration. The absolute lack of references in the written texts to incidents related to trade point to the existence of a wide agreement on recognizing trade as a beneficial activity for all the stakeholders involved –foreigners, nomads, urban dwellers and state. The lack of walls in all the settlements found so far in the region speaks of a –more or less- peaceful coexistence between all the groups trading in Somaliland. Although problems could always arise –the fort of Qalcadda is an obvious example that caravans needed to be protected-, the importance of trade in the Horn of Africa only declined by external factors such as the blockage of the Red Sea by the Portuguese (Trimingham 1965: 86). What the archaeological record of trade points to in Somaliland is a clear coordination between the nomads that benefited from the exchanges and the pass of the caravans through their territories, the urban dwellers that acted as nodes to allow the caravans resupply and rest, and the state which could have overseen the whole system.

It's most likely that arrangement between the nomads and urban dwellers were the same as what you saw in Arabia. Between Bedouins and the sedentary. The sedentary people were previously nomadic themselves with connections and relations with the bedouins who they hired to safeguard and keep their camels/livestock and guard and direct their caravans. They were also traders themselves and would also act as semi-nomads or settling in the towns for trade. This is what textual evidence and archeology shows.

Only the inland towns towards the west had fortified settlements because of their proximity with the Abyssinians that used to raid and attack them.


). This lack of defenses is surprising if we consider the permanent state of war between
Christians and Muslims described in the written sources, and should be explained by the backward position of the Somaliland sites with respect to the border with the Christian kingdom. Fortresses and fortified settlements are more common the closer they are to the Ethiopian highlands (Fauvelle-Aymar and Hirsch2010a: 33-34).

The Caravvan stations like Qalcada was only a means for the state to control and secure the trade. The lack of walls in many of the settlements shows how the populations with different lifestyles were living in relative peaceful collaboration with eachother.

The farmers from what i can tell seemed to have been Somalis as indicated by the Al-Umari who explained Awdal population cultivating with the use of the Somali Calendar.
“they cultivate two times annually by seasonal rains … The rainfall for the winter is called ‘Bil’ and rainfall for the ‘summer’ is called ‘Karam’ in the language of the people of Zayla’


It seems that in Medieval times many agricultural settlements were proping up in different places with arable land, lakes, wells rivers etc seeing as there are numerous stone ruins across Akin to the development that was happening in the 18th-19th century during the revival of Islam.

This isn't suprising because Islam encourages urbanization and sedentarianism. This is the only way to practice the religion fully and where it has its expression.

Their widespread subsequent abandonement in 16th-17th can be explained by the collapse of the State, oromo invasion, civil war and the disturbance of interior trade networks, portuguese bombing and trade blockage caused a re-nomadization and de-urbanization of the population. During the upheaval of the 16th century.

drobbah
05-16-2021, 10:54 PM
I've read the Futuh and it does not imply what you're saying about demographics. Somalis were not some irrelevant periphery people when dealing the Adal at all.
The Somalis besides when the muslim sultanates were in desperate need of muscle power were mostly irrelevant periphery people. There's a reason when the Hiraabu Goita Tedrous (cheif of Marexaan) fled to what Shihabudeen called the land of the Somalis which was probably east of central Somaliland (Sool iyo Sanaag).Where till today segments of the Hawiye clan still preside like the Fiqishiini
https://i.imgur.com/nTMU6g4.jpg




The Imam you just referenced himself had married his sister off to a Somali chieftain
I never denied that some Somali clans lived within Adal but it definitely wasn't a Somali territory.

And, walaal... most of Somaliland despite its greater fertility is still very arid. It would not support some large agricultural population that could control nomadic Somalis. As for the nucleus point of Somalis being Sanaag I agree with that but it was not as recent as 500 years. I don't see any proof for that.
Western Somaliland & central Somaliland especially the Gabiley plains (which is an extension of Ethiopian Fafaan) and parts of Awdal is extremely fertile and cannot be compared to the rest of Somaliland could definitely host a large scale population.Central Somaliland was less populated but there were sizable farming settlements and decent sized towns to control the nomads. Ultimately via alliances and marriage is how they kept Somalis in check as long as there was a strong state like Ifat or Adal.As for nucleus point of Sanaag I never claimed Somalis expanded 500 years ago but rather between the 12th & 13th century when Somalis became muslims and this probably when some of the clans mentioned in the Futuh migrated as partially islamized within the domain of the sultanate and others ventured south and into the vast grazing lands of the modern Somali region of Ethiopia


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqCO2TZJUcI







I just showed you proof of what I was talking about? Are you just going to gloss over the source? Yes, nomads raided. That's obviously true but my point was that in a lot of cases the strategy was to deal with them through alliances and truces like what was going on during the 17-1800s which is probably why a lot of these towns didn't need to be walled. As long as you didn't earn the ire of the clans along your trade route you should be fine and if you did... You get the picture.

Never said otherwise...don't know what the 20th century Bartire have to do with what we are talking about walaal.The Bartire marrying some powerless Harari emir does not refute my claim that the violent end of Biyo Gure was probably because of incoming nomadic Somalis. Biyo gure was a farming settlement that is so far was the only Somaliland site that clearly showed glass producing capabilities while farming using irrigation which is why even the authors suggested it was inhabited by foreigners.It was a probably an easy target for what I presume were probably Dir or Isaaq nomads.




The odd thing is that you don't seem to know that the expanding Somalis I've seen you talking about in other threads which I admit I kinda brought into fashion myself with an old post of mine were most certainly agro-pastoralists. Heck, I used to talk to Lank about this nearly a decade ago. It's been know for a long, long time that Proto-Somali (the ancestor of Af-Maay and Af-Maxaa) clearly had an agricultural vocabulary and that early Somalis were therefore familiar with farming as well as pastoralism.
The Somalis diverged from these Maay folks a long time prior to the medieval Somali expansion in the 12th or 13th century and expanded primarily as camel herders.The cultures between these two ethnic groups must have been very different by the 13th century, in my personal opinion I just don't think Somalis expanded in the medieval period as agro-pastoralists but my knowledge on this specific topic is quite limited.



And if I've seen DNA results for the craftsman groups you're talking about they pretty much look like normal Somalis except for one I recently saw who had some "Ethiopian" in him but that was known to him and his family as recent maternal line admixture.
I score 100% Somali on 23&me and my father does so aswell on ancestrydna yet on qpadm both me and him show elevated Mota ( father scores between 10 & 15% and I get between 5-7%) and that's not typical of Somalis.I wouldn't take his commercial test results at face-value bro and you are speaking of that J-P58 Madhibaan individual I presume

drobbah
05-16-2021, 11:00 PM
First of all most of the Muslim leaders and the population in North-Western regions was Somali if not all and they recruited nomads mainly during the Futuh wars. Because they needed the man power and the numbers.

The site of Biyo Gure seeing as there have been traces of fire and burns, it's most likely one of the many sites burned down and bombarded by the Portuguese at the turn of the 16th century and abandoned following the decline of trade. As they were bombing and destroying many coastal cities and settlements around the Somali peninsuala. Clearly not signs of raids by nomads

Berbera and Zeila were both bombed and sacked by the Portugese. . That site is near Berbera


According to archeological evidence the urban dwellers and pastoralists were living in relatively peaceful collaboration with eachother. Were dependant on eachother. And the nomads themselves were integrated in the state.
Built on diversity: Statehood in Medieval Somaliland (12th-16th centuries AD) (https://statehorn.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Jorge20de20Torres-Built20on20diversity.pdf)



It's most likely that arrangement between the nomads and urban dwellers were the same as what you saw in Arabia. Between Bedouins and the sedentary. The sedentary people were previously nomadic themselves with connections and relations with the bedouins who they hired to safeguard and keep their camels/livestock and guard and direct their caravans. They were also traders themselves and would also act as semi-nomads or settling in the towns for trade. This is what textual evidence and archeology shows.

Only the inland towns towards the west had fortified settlements because of their proximity with the Abyssinians that used to raid and attack them.



The Caravvan stations like Qalcada was only a means for the state to control and secure the trade. The lack of walls in many of the settlements shows how the populations with different lifestyles were living in relative peaceful collaboration with eachother.

The farmers from what i can tell seemed to have been Somalis as indicated by the Al-Umari who explained Awdal population cultivating with the use of the Somali Calendar.

It seems that in Medieval times many agricultural settlements were proping up in different places with arable land, lakes, wells rivers etc seeing as there are numerous stone ruins across Akin to the development that was happening in the 18th-19th century during the revival of Islam.

This isn't suprising because Islam encourages urbanization and sedentarianism. This is the only way to practice the religion fully and where it has its expression.

Their widespread subsequent abandonement in 16th-17th can be explained by the collapse of the State, oromo invasion, civil war and the disturbance of interior trade networks, portuguese bombing and trade blockage caused a re-nomadization and de-urbanization of the population. During the upheaval of the 16th century.
The Portuguese didn't march into the interior of Somaliland (no such thing of a NW Somalia) and attacked settlements.

Mirix
05-16-2021, 11:38 PM
The Portuguese didn't march into the interior of Somaliland (no such thing of a NW Somalia) and attacked settlements.

Portuguese bombarded Berbera several times. Biyo Gurre is right next to the port of Berbera it has fire marks erosion and obvious signs of it being bombed and burned down, put two and two together.

And why did you try to misrepresent the archeological findings that said the opposite of what you tried to imply?

Sadly for you there is no evidence to back such nonsense up and Somalis are not static group either.

Awale
05-17-2021, 12:08 AM
The Somalis besides when the muslim sultanates were in desperate need of muscle power were mostly irrelevant periphery people. There's a reason when the Hiraabu Goita Tedrous (cheif of Marexaan) fled to what Shihabudeen called the land of the Somalis which was probably east of central Somaliland (Sool iyo Sanaag).Where till today segments of the Hawiye clan still preside like the Fiqishiini

Walaal, there is really no proof for the things you're claiming in terms of demographics. I've read the book. It's been available to us for decades. We both read it years ago and it never gave me or anyone any impression that the Somalis were a periphery group. And the Futuh doesn't just make it known that Somalis live in Adal territory as you acknowledge but clearly that they were an important demographic that needed to be appeased with important marriages (the leading Imam's own sister) which is pretty much identical to what was going on during the Early Modern era.

If you follow the Futuh carefully as well as Somali clan oral traditions and some historical documents from Harar the picture honestly looks very startlingly similar to what Burton describes during the 1800s which is that there had to be marriages and alliances made with the local nomads who had a presence among the elites because even back then they were probably a great threat to trade caravans and the dominant presence in the coastal towns and could hence choke the trade of the hinterland towns:


“He who commands at Berberah, holds the beard of Harar in his hand,” is a saying which I heard even within the city walls."- Burton (https://archive.org/details/firstfootstepsin00rich)

I made some edits to my old reply so you probably missed it but one thing you don't seem to realize is that Southern-Ethiosemites are not a coastal settling people. It is simply not in their culture. Sewn boats like what Swahilis and Arabians use, coastal fishing and so forth is completely foreign to them for obvious reasons and likely always has been but not so to coastal Cushitic groups like Somalis, Afars and Sahos who have always had a subset of their population indulging in this even in the most arid and inhospitable regions:



Of a total population of 82,653 for the Mijertein region, 59,554 are pastoralist, 5,297 agriculturalist-pastoralist, 920 sedentary cultivators, 9,692 fishermen and sailors, and 3,097 merchants. - Peoples of the Horn of Africa: Somali, Afar and Saho (https://drive.google.com/file/d/16JZ_J97Krn6pWh0nvYMpActnt3EqTJOX/view)

Sewn boats in the western Indian Ocean, and a survival in Somalia (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jm6JzlJZZ0b4zWgRdxH71JYse_Kf-s3S/view)



https://i.imgur.com/9W7K45b.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ZdsvNlk.png

https://i.imgur.com/BplB8MI.jpg

And like I said in my earlier reply:

A lot of speculation on your part, walaal. Medieval Arab scholars were pretty aware of the difference between Habeshas and Somalis ("Berbers"). I think they would have noticed that the people in places like Sanaag and Koonfur were very different from folks around Waqooyi and Awdal if that was truly the case and not lumped them together as Ibn Battuta does when he says all the Berbera people are "herders of camels and sheep". Especially considering that they traded and for periods of time settled among these peoples. But I don't disagree about the camel consumption. I've pointed out on this forum for people myself (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?17953-The-territories-of-the-Somali-clans-and-their-historic-migrations-and-wanderings&p=679991#post679991) that goats and sheep were always the main meat animals for Somalis. But one other interesting thing worth noting is that when Ibn Battuta goes to Mogadishu, where he actually stayed for a time, he notes the same practice of slaughtering camels in its alleyways.

Just doesn't add up that there would be little Somali presence. Sounds like wild speculation to me, walaal.


Biyo gure was a farming settlement that is so far was the only Somaliland site that clearly showed glass producing capabilities while farming using irrigation which is why even the authors suggested it was inhabited by foreigners.It was a probably an easy target for what I presume were probably Dir or Isaaq nomads.

It's been known since long before these more recent scholars that a foreign presence was likely. In fact, I knew this as far back as a decade ago and seemingly made some of it more known to you via sources like that paper on the Semitic loanwords in Somali. Scholars have always assumed the hinterland had a Southern-Ethiosemitic presence of some kind but pretty much all of them tend to agree that the coastal towns were probably majority Somali for the sorts of reasons I've shared so far. It's worth noting that even Chinese sources (http://anthromadness.blogspot.com/2018/09/800-ce-po-pa-li-is-not-somalia-but-1100.html) on what seems like the north coast of Somalia pretty much imply a population with mainly pastoral nomadic roots and not a majority settled, agricultural population. I'm sorry, walaal, I don't think there's any dancing around the fact that Somalis were present as a major demographic in Adal territory as nomadic pastoralists, probably intermixed with the Southern-Ethiosemites in the hinterland villages and towns and definitely along the coast like Zeila.


The Somalis diverged from these Maay folks a long time prior to the medieval Somali expansion in the 12th or 13th century and expanded primarily as camel herders.The cultures between these two ethnic groups must have been very different by the 13th century, in my personal opinion I just don't think Somalis expanded in the medieval period as agro-pastoralists but my knowledge on this specific topic is quite limited.

Except even Sanaag, which you point out as a nucleus for Somalis, clearly has the same sorts of hinterland settlements, as well as agriculture going on and back centuries, as does Bari. Both also have proof of coastal towns and maritime silk-route trade going back to the classical era. So, your 100% camel herder expanding Somalis were literally doing, at least in the part, the exact same things that were going on to their west. And Af-Maxaa and Af-Maay diverged around 1,500 years ago so at least by then early Somalis were certainly familiar with farming even if a large portion of them expanded as herders there was likely always an agro-pastoral and cultivator subset who took up agriculture wherever it was possible like I've explained in the past (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?17953-The-territories-of-the-Somali-clans-and-their-historic-migrations-and-wanderings&p=679991#post679991). Wherever cultivatable land is found you generally do find Somali subclans who indulge in fully settled farming or agro-pastoralism all over Somaliweyn (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Somalia). Mirix is not wrong in that the situation is not so different from Arabians at all. Majority pastoral nomadic population because most of the land is arid, settled farmers and agro-pastoralists wherever arable enough land is available then some fishermen and traders along the coast.

Even in the 1st Century AD the Greeks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbaria_(region)) clearly lump coastal Bejas, coastal Eritreans, Jabuutians and the people on the coast of northern Somalia together as they could probably see the same phenomenon the medieval Arabs and early modern Europeans encountered which is a continuous belt of coastal Cushitic pastoralist people from southeastern Egypt down to the Somali coast. Even the descriptions the Aksumite Emperors give of coastal people around what is now southern Eritrea and Jabuuti and possibly Awdal appears to clearly be describing a majority pastoral nomadic population.


Western Somaliland & central Somaliland especially the Gabiley plains (which is an extension of Ethiopian Fafaan) and parts of Awdal is extremely fertile and cannot be compared to the rest of Somaliland could definitely host a large scale population.Central Somaliland was less population but there were sizable farming settlements and decent sized towns to control the nomads.Ultimatetly via alliances and marriage is how they kept Somalis in check as long as there was a strong state like Ifat or Adal.As for nucleus point of Sanaag I never claimed Somalis expanded 500 years ago but rather between the 12th & 13th century when Somalis became muslims and this probably when some of the clans mentioned in the Futuh migrated as partially islamized within the domain of the sultanate and others ventured south and into the vast grazing lands of the modern Somali region of Ethiopia

I've been to the northwest. Most of that land, before modern agricultural techniques was not cultivatable and don't let how green looking and beautiful some of the northwest is fool you; a lot of it is marginal land that is mostly just good for grazing livestock. There were subclans of your own clan and the neighboring Dir dedicated to settled farming and agro-pastoralism before the 20th century and yet that area was still not very populated at all and still majority nomadic for a reason. Southern-Ethiosemites definitely lived in the hinterland and traded with and politicked big-time with Somalis, this cannot be denied in my opinion but I really don't see much evidence that they were some massive, politically dominating group.


I score 100% Somali on 23&me and my father does so aswell on ancestrydna yet on qpadm both me and him show elevated Mota ( father scores between 10 & 15% and I get between 5-7%) and that's not typical of Somalis.I wouldn't take his commercial test results at face-value bro and you are speaking of that J-P58 Madhibaan individual I presume

You can find the same thing in other Somali regions, walaal. Nothing too special, I'd say. Again, I'd say you'd have a strong leg to stand on if northwestern Somalis were like Afars with lots of J1, some J2 and a strong overall skew toward Habeshas in terms of auDNA but that isn't remotely the case and northwestern Somalis mostly look identical to their eastern and southern neighbors in terms of auDNA and the Y-DNA difference (like T-L208) is not at all in direction of Ethiosemites. If there was such a massive agricultural, non-Somali population you'd expect a strong genetic impression but there really is none.

As for the Madhiban, I know who you're talking about and he's not the only "low-caste" Somali I've seen; like I said, they look like normal Somalis from what I've seen but hopefully we'll get more samples in time. Mind you, I am of the opinion that at least the Tumaal are possibly assimilates from Ethiopia. In fact, I think LE Cushites like Somalis quite possibly got our whole caste-system concept from the Highlands within the last 2,000-3,000 years. For example, the Somali word for "metal ("bir") clearly shares a root with the word for "metal" in Ethiosemitic languages. Metallurgy seemingly entered the Horn around 1000 BCE with the Protoethiosemites and probably spread to Cushites like Somalis via Habeshas or from other Cushites who were influenced by Habeshas. But the possible assimilation of these castes likely happened so long ago that it'll likely bear no fruit to rummage through their DNA nowadays as I've seen so far but we'll see with more samples.

Mirix
05-17-2021, 02:05 AM
Somali oral history points to Sanaag as the medieval origin of majority of the Somali clans and the Futuh Al Habasha consistently showed that Somalis were nothing more than a nomadic camel herding periphery people.Yes certain clans lived within the Sultanate during the Imam's time including my own but it is clear the Walashma dynasty and many of the elites of these muslim states were not of Somali origin.I think what the Futuh called the clans of Harla lived there, this explains the animosity the Harlas had for Somalis in particular.The Imam did all he could to keep these two ethnic groups away from each other.Multiple times in the Futuh the animosity between these two groups comes up

Futuh Al Habasha showed no such thing. Sanaag region are among the most arid regions of Somalia It is no surprise if more nomads would be living there.. First things first the name ''Soomaal'' itself was mainly just an occupational name for pastoralists not an ethnic name. At the time of Futuh's writing it was akin to the term bedouin. That is how it was applied. Kinda the same way Tumaal means Blacksmiths.

This paper discusses this in great detail and goes into the etymology of the term and how it evolved following the 16th century collapse Effects of sixteenth century upheavals (https://arcadia.sba.uniroma3.it/bitstream/2307/1026/5/34_M.%20A.%20RIRASH%20-%20Effects%20of%20sixteenth%20century%20upheavals% 20on%20the%20history%20of%20the%20horn.pdf)


"But other fatal problems in the form of famines epidemics and the Oromo (Galla) invasion appeared on the horizon. In the end we have a social pattern very different from what we have before the the sixteetnh century upheavals. 'Since all other modes of life were brought to end, pastorialism became the pre-dominant one. As a result, the name, Somali, which was only an occupational name prior to Jihad, evolved into an ethnic name'"

In Somali language people are still know by their occupations like Tumaal, Qudaal,Qotto(Farmer), etc. Dabatto (hunters) etc. Even to this day we make marked distinctions between Reer Gurra and Reer Magaal. With the former looking down on the latter.

Furthermore Arab Faqih employed an Arab literary trope in his writings of Sedentary vs Nomadic. Which is a common narrative style in Arabia where you describe the Bedouin Arab population as distinct from the sedentary Arabs with streotypical characteristics: NOMADIC AND SEDENTARY LIFE IN THE TIME OF PROPHET MUHAMMAD (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/348074036_NOMADIC_AND_SEDENTARY_LIFE_IN_THE_TIME_O F_PROPHET_MUHAMMAD)

None of this however marks any Linguistic/Ethnic disitinctions between populations only their mode of life of which is was what put them apart and gave them difference in personality. Sedentary people themselves were formerly nomadic. It also hard amend when the population living North Western Somaliland are the same people that live there today and there hasn't been any population change at all for the last 1000 years or more:Bantu, Galla and Somali Migrations in the Horn of Africa: A Reassessment of the Juba/Tana Area (https://www.jstor.org/stable/180495?seq=3#metadata_info_tab_contents) & The Origins of the Galla and Somali (https://www.jstor.org/stable/179457?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents)


s. According to H. S. Lewis, early written sources suggest a picture that is entirely compatible with population stability and the
hypothesis that the Somali were the main inhabitants of the Horn. The reference in Al-Idrisi to the Hadiye and in Ibn Sa'id to the Hawiye, on both occasions associated with the Benadir port of Merca, where the Hawiya live today, suggests that they have been in this area for at least 700 years.8 The references slightly later in the Futuh al-Habasha to Somali groups in north-western Somaliland indicates that the population in this area has also remained substantially unchanged since the sixteenth century, when the work was written


A third relatively early document containing recognizable references to Somali groups is an Arabic chronicle detailing the wars between the Muslims of Adal and the Christians of Ethiopia.6 The Somali groups mentioned in the Futuh al-Habasha are generally ones which are still found in north-west Somaliland-the area which was once Adal or adjacent to it. These include the Yabarre, Bartirre, Marrehan, Geri, Habr Magadle, and various Dir groups. The evidence of this work, written between I540 and 1550, is, therefore, that the composition of the Somali population of north- west Somaliland has not changed substantially since then.7


Many present clans are cited in Futuh , some without the "Soomaal" next to their clan name. As well as the the fact the Walashma and all the other states had Somali genealogical traditions. They literally trace their descent to Aw Barkhadle and (Al-Jabarti, and Aqeel Ibn Talib) Darood much like Somalis do today. The latter of whom which is buried in Sanaag. Same goes for Harla


Camels are not everyday meat in the Horn. These animals are slaughtered “on feast days, religious occasions of special significance, and for the important occasions of births, marriages and deaths only.This suggests Ibn Battuta came during a medieval trade fair which probably attracted nomadic Somalis from the east but also different folks in the region (like the possibly Ethio-Semitic Harla).Also it is very likely non-Somali (Cushitic or heavlily Cushitic admixed) population lived in Zeila and Ibn Battuta wouldn't be able to differentiate between the different Horners, there's also no evidence that modern clans like Cisse,Samarone or Habar Awal are indigenous to this region and this falls in line with our own oral history.


Camels were sighted in the vincity of Zeila and Mogadishu, what it does suggest nomads were living in these cities, trading with it etc.

Ibn Khaldhun himself noted while visiting Mogadishu is nomadic character of city Al-Muqaddim (https://sites.google.com/site/historyofeastafrica/ibn-khaldun-1)


To the south of Zayla, on the western shores of the Indian Ocean, are spread out the villages of Berbera, following the southern coast all the way to the VI section. In the east they touch the land of the Zanj. Then there is the town of Mogadiscio (Maqdashu) which is overfilled with people and its standard of civilization is that of nomadic people. One also finds lots of merchants there.

Besides them one finds the Barbara, of which the poet Imru'u-l-Qays speaks in his verses. Islam is nowadays very extended among them. They have a town on the Indian ocean called Mogadishu, which is often visited by Muslim merchants.

According to Ibn Khaldun sedentary society is an advanced stage of nomadic life. Mogadishu was a city with a wall surrounding it.

Can you demonstrate that another population was living in Zeila other than Somali? Wether Ciise , Samaroon or Habar Awal clans lived there one thing for certain is that Awdal region (Zeila) was mainly inhabited by Somalis, the name Awdal itself is implies it and the fact there has been no major movements bey Isaaq and Dir, they live relatively geographically restricted regions have been recorded in the futuh that way. So they are not new comers either.

There is zero Evidence of any population replacement or admixture in any of these places. Linguistically, culturally or genetically. Nor is there any group that have had a history in living there. What you see from the sources is a high degree of population stability.



Not true as I come from a clan (Jibriil Abokor) who were notorious for banditry and raiding caravans due to our strategic position in between Harar & Berbera and is one of the reasons why the Abyssinians in the 19th century built a fort at Jigjiga.Raiding is a normal part of Somali nomadic culture and nomads in others parts of the world.Settled populations in particular are very vulnerable to raiding by nomads without a state protecting them.
https://i.postimg.cc/T2LFW65x/ffrrrrfff.png
http://i.imgur.com/iflSWI2.jpg


You are ignoring the fact that the very caravans being raided was guided and protected by nomads themelves who were transporting things with camels.

And Jigjiga itself was a town founded by Somali sheikhs in the 18th-19th century after Menelik captured Harar, the clergy moved there instead and established that town.


The coast never really had any permanent settlements besides Zeila and anyone who has been to the coast would know why. Which is why majority of the medieval settlements are near mountains and places suitable for agriculture (dry river beds that turn into rivers during the raining season like my ancestral tribal home of Arabsiyo).Aw-Barkhadle which was the site of the forefather of the Walashma dynasty for example was probably fortified and quite large according to Mire.


Both Berbera and Zeila was permanent coastal cities. Zeila was mainly the only one that could be considered major city besides Doggor. Permanent settlements can only happen in places that have rivers, lakes , arable land, food resources to sustain them. How would they have permanent settlements in Heis? Sool & Sanaag are otherwise arid dry regions. Biyo Gurre for examples is a river stream.

AwBarkhadle was the capital city of Dakkar according to Sada Mire that housed a big popualtion which it needed a wall surounding it. But all the other settlements are completely lacking in walls surounding them. Only the settlements near the Ethiopian Highlands under constant attacks from Ethiopia


Temporary trading fairs between nomads and foreigners in places near Berbera (Bandar Cabbas,Buluxaar etc) and in Sanaag like the city of Xiis.I think the vast majority of these farming locals in western & central Somaliland and the skilled city folks were not Somali, perhaps after Adal collapsed these populations were absorbed by the waves of even more migrating Somalis.Also farming and craftmanship was something Somalis culturally had disdain for and the vast majority of clans in Western Somaliland and Fafaan region only became semi-nomadic cultivators within the last 2 or 3 centuries.I never denied the presence of Somalis clans within the sultanate of Adal but they were not an important factor besides taking sides in civil wars between the muslim elite as mercenaries.

There is no evidence for foreigners making settlements in Berbera at all. You are just resycling the same outdated arguments made by IM Lewis like you did previously on a different thread

Craftsmanship and farming isn't something Somalis particularly look down on but it's something they can't afford practice because of their demand their otherwise arid environment puts on them and their subsequent substinence level.

Artisan castes are common throughout the Horn of African in different Semetic and Cushitic speaking populations not something unique to Somalis.

Herbert Lewis examines and actually explains their origins:


Living among the Cushiles of Ethiopia and the Somalilands are “depressed” castes of hunters and artisans. Ad. E. Jensen (1959) assumes that these smiths and hunters are all related and represent a pre-Nilotic and pre-Cushitic Schich! that he calls Nigritic. He believes that they are Negroid peoples and specifically connects them with the Western Cushitic-speaking Bako peoples, who tend to be short and dark. Enrico Cerulli (1922, 1957) suggests that they are not all related to each other but that the hunting groups (at least) represent remnant pre-Cushitic hunters drawn from a number of sources. According to Trimingham (19S2), “They are remnants of former aboriginal negroid peoples who have not been absorbed and live amongst the peoples who subjected them as primitive hunters of performing despised and feared occupations such as smithery or magic.” These points of view not only reflect the “wave” theory of Ethiopian history, but also represent the tendency to treat all peoples who are not stereotypically “Hamitic” as older and more Negroid. The frequent application of this rule of thumb is untenable. Let us, instead, investigate the actual cultural and structural situation of these people.

In virtually every Cushitic group there are endogamous castes based on occupational specialization (such caste groups are also found, to some extent, among the Ethiopian Semites). The names of these groups differ, their physical characteristics vary greatly, and they speak only the languages of their “hosts” or of other nearby Cushitic or Semitic peoples. Neither in language nor in physical traits is there any way to group the members of these castes as “Negroid” or “Bushmanoid.” (Admittedly, some groups appear different from their “hosts.” The manjo of Kafa are one example. But the manjo do not look like other depressed peoples. They resemble, somewhat, their Western Cushitic-speaking neighbors to the south.) Goldsmith and I. M. Lewis (1958) say that the hunter and artisan castes among the Somali show no obvious physical differences from the “noble” Somali, speak the same language, are culturally similar, and that there are no “strong traditions” of their having had a separate origin.

You know what all of these Cushitic/Semetic speaking groups have in common? Their substinence economy as Herbert Lewis puts it.

Take for example all the Yibir, Tumaal and Midgaan groups they all say they was forced into doing it by their overlord clans. They all claim descent from the same noble clans but say they were weak lineages.

I'M Lewis & Enrico Cerulli ignored this and created their own nonsense narrative of Migrating obsorbing nomads or remant negroid groups when they infact are not remant groups at all. They went out of their way to blood test themA Preliminary Investigation of the Blood Groups of the Sab Bondsmen of Northern Somaliland (https://www.jstor.org/stable/2798085?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents) What they found is that they were virtually identitical to the noble Somali clans.

But the time of Awdal and Ajuuran this was different, there was agricultural surplus and the population had the abillity to diversify their occupation. So craftsmanship, masonry , population density , urbanization could be sustained this way. They no longer had to concern themselves with producing/finding food or even water.

Take for example when Richard Burton visited Harar in he noted that the Somalis living there were engaged in different craft occupations?


Burton’s description of the population of the city of Harar shows there were 2500 Somalis engaged in different
activities (Burton, R., 1956). The spatial organization of the city and the quarters also has some ethnic
stratification. Accordingly, the Somalis were predominantly found in the Suqtat Bari, engaged in occupations such as handicraft, smithery and leatherwork.

Why do you suppose this is? Because they could afford to.

When you plummet down to substinence level you can only afford a few crafts people to make necessary things and the above population have to focus on producing food. So they forced a section within their own population to do it and made up some rational for it to keep them there.
Thats when the bondsmen and client-cultivator relationships emerged to manage their meager substinence.

All the archeological evidence shows is a widespread lifestyle change only because of the collapse of the state and the ensuing upheaval. It only lasted between Late 16th-18th. Within the last 2 or 3 centuries what you saw was only reimergence and revival of Islam in Somalia and saw the same shift that happened in the middle ages happen again. Not a late cultural trend.


“...The emergence of organized Sufism allowed these religious men to exercise autocratic powers unknown to secular men in the fragmented politics of clan organization.”

Moreover, most of the Islamic education centers were located in settlements in agricultural areas and around water wells, and many of these were later transformed into villages, towns, and cities. In this way, Sufi orders transformed pastoral society into settled communities engaged in agriculture and/or trade.

Mirix
05-17-2021, 02:14 AM
This trend of Urban state collapse ensued widespread abandonement, and re-nomadization can be seen in even Arab and Berber history.NOMADIC AND SEDENTARY LIFE IN THE TIME OF PROPHET MUHAMMAD

As they call it Bedouinization


However, at certain period, urban authority declined and its celebrated socio-economic stability was disintegrated. During such situation, nomadism would grow again, the Bedouins consolidated themselves, and authority shifted from urban leadership back to the tribal confederation, a gradual process which, of course, did not happened at once. It would led to the desertion of some settlements and the coercion of some of the urban population to migrate to better cities or to undergo nomadic life in the desert; in other words a process of bedouinization. Such situation had happened three centuries prior to the appearance of Islam in the Hejaz, due to the weakening of border powers, especially in South Arabia. Bedouin’s raids in the border regions and tribal clashes occurred more frequently, forced peripheral settlements to leave agriculture and to accept pastoralism.45

Awale
05-17-2021, 02:25 AM
Artisan castes are common throughout the Horn of African in different Semetic and Cushitic speaking populations not something unique to Somalis.

Very true. I've pointed this out over the years on this very forum myself. There is a reason there are "Ari Blacksmith" and "Ari Cultivator" samples. This is a common practice all over the Horn, even among Omotics. Many scholars have noted this. Even the wiki page for the Madhiban shows the following:

https://i.imgur.com/aQ66sSo.png

Many don't even know that the Beta Israel were historically such a "low-caste" vocational group known for things like stonemasonry and carpenting (https://www.jstor.org/stable/182479) which is why they were ostracized and probably also why they formed their own unique form of local Orthodoxy. Whatever Southern-Ethiosemitic population lived in the northwest most likely as a minority would most definitely have had pretty much the same view of artisans and the like that Somalis did. It is uniform across the Horn. It seems our ancestors generally had a particular disdain for people who practiced anything other than food-producing (farming and pastoralism). Even the Reer Magaal (city people), fisherman/sailors and merchants were looked down upon by nomadic, rural Somalis but those groups never managed to crystallize into their own sort of caste and their nomadic kin still acknowledged them as "noble" Somalis.

Mirix
05-17-2021, 03:24 AM
Very true. I've pointed this out over the years on this very forum myself. There is a reason there are "Ari Blacksmith" and "Ari Cultivator" samples. This is a common practice all over the Horn, even among Omotics. Many scholars have noted this. Even the wiki page for the Madhiban shows the following:

https://i.imgur.com/aQ66sSo.png

Many don't even know that the Beta Israel were historically such a "low-caste" vocational group known for things like stonemasonry and carpenting (https://www.jstor.org/stable/182479) which is why they were ostracized and probably also why they formed their own unique form of local Orthodoxy. Whatever Southern-Ethiosemitic population lived in the northwest most likely as a minority would most definitely have had pretty much the same view of artisans and the like that Somalis did. It is uniform across the Horn. It seems our ancestors generally had a particular disdain for people who practiced anything other than food-producing (farming and pastoralism). Even the Reer Magaal (city people), fisherman/sailors and merchants were looked down upon by nomadic, rural Somalis but those groups never managed to crystallize into their own sort of caste and their nomadic kin still acknowledged them as "noble" Somalis.

Herbert Lewis (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228022146_HISTORICAL_PROBLEMS_IN_ETHIOPIA_AND_THE_ HORN_OF_AFRICA) examines the nature of it in better detail. It's worth a read.

The way sedentary Somalis(Reer Magaal) look down and view nomadic Somalis(Reer Guura) is an interesting case study . Between nomadic and sedentary societies, there is a symbiotic relationship.

Drobbah has been reading the works by Hamiticphiles like I'M Lewis they believe in wave theory and Caucasoid pastoral hamite invaders. Anyone who isn't stereotypically Hamitic must be foreign remnants absorbed Hamitic nomadic invaders or some nonsense like that. Literally pesudeo history and science from the 18th century colonial historiography is being resurrected and applied here.

Mirix
05-17-2021, 06:01 AM
As for the Madhiban, I know who you're talking about and he's not the only "low-caste" Somali I've seen; like I said, they look like normal Somalis from what I've seen but hopefully we'll get more samples in time. Mind you, I am of the opinion that at least the Tumaal are possibly assimilates from Ethiopia. In fact, I think LE Cushites like Somalis quite possibly got our whole caste-system concept from the Highlands within the last 2,000-3,000 years. For example, the Somali word for "metal ("bir") clearly shares a root with the word for "metal" in Ethiosemitic languages. Metallurgy seemingly entered the Horn around 1000 BCE with the Protoethiosemites and probably spread to Cushites like Somalis via Habeshas or from other Cushites who were influenced by Habeshas. But the possible assimilation of these castes likely happened so long ago that it'll likely bear no fruit to rummage through their DNA nowadays as I've seen so far but we'll see with more samples.

Actually word Bir for metal is Proto-Afroasiatic and it shares roots in many different AA languages.
http://web.aou.edu.lb/research/Documents/4-article%204.pdf
Proto-Afro-Asiatic: *bir-
Meaning: metal
#Semitic: *bi/urt- 'metal artifact'
#Egyptian: byr 'metal’
#Chadic: *bir- 'iron'
#Agaw: bir- 'metal'
#SahoAfar: bir-t- 'iron'
#Somali: : bir- 'metal'

I don't believe Tumaals are assimilates either , the word Tumaal for (Blacksmiths) are common in Proto-Sam and even occur in Rendille. Who also have Tumaals as well.


If they were remnants groups or assimilates it would show in their DNA since they been held to be endegamous.


. Some sab informants also, referring to well documented cases, maintain that they are of the same stock as the Somali but descend from small, numerically weak lineage groups which were reduced to servitude by more powerful enemies.9 In support of these claims, Midgaan informants have produced genealogies tracing descent from Dir, the founder of the Dir clan family, generally regarded as the oldest Somali stock.10 Some Tumaal trace descent from
he oldest trace descent from Daarood, founder of the noble Daarood Somali clan family.

Various writers have suggested that the sab represent the remnants of pre-Somali peoples conquered by Hamitic So


They show that there is no significant difference in the distribu- tion of the ABO and MN groups in our sample and in a
sample of I,OOO noble Somali. The contingency table for the Rhesus group does not accord so exactly, but the difference is small and may be due to the size of our sample. As far as the results go, the blood-group composition of sab sample is thus virtually identical with that of the Somali. While it would be dangerous to generalize from so small a sample (54 individuals), our results suggest that in serological characters there is no difference between those of the sab and those of noble Somali.


The simple fact there is in no differentation shows how recently they became bondsmen and supports their own traditions of coming from the same stock as the various noble clans. That and apart from their specialist trade skills are culturally identitical.

Awale
05-17-2021, 12:45 PM
Actually word Bir for metal is Proto-Afroasiatic and it shares roots in many different AA languages.
http://web.aou.edu.lb/research/Documents/4-article%204.pdf
Proto-Afro-Asiatic: *bir-
Meaning: metal
#Semitic: *bi/urt- 'metal artifact'
#Egyptian: byr 'metal’
#Chadic: *bir- 'iron'
#Agaw: bir- 'metal'
#SahoAfar: bir-t- 'iron'
#Somali: : bir- 'metal'


This is very interesting and thanks for sharing but do you have a source for PAA? I mean... it's a pre-agricultural language so I'd be pretty surprised if it had a word for metal.


The way sedentary Somalis(Reer Magaal) look down and view nomadic Somalis(Reer Guura) is an interesting case study . Between nomadic and sedentary societies, there is a symbiotic relationship.

The same attitude is found everywhere. Even in Sudan (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBZNMsmNNZc&t=2445s&ab_channel=TheSecretsofNature) the nomads look down on the settled people and vice versa and of course this has definitely been the case in the Middle-East. Nomads tend to see settled people as "enslaved" by the land due to their inability to easily move around and also don't like how much more rigid their social organization tends to be whereas settled people see them as things like thieving, war-like and "barbaric" because nomads do often extort and raid them.


Drobbah has been reading the works by Hamiticphiles like I'M Lewis they believe in wave theory and Caucasoid pastoral hamite invaders. Anyone who isn't stereotypically Hamitic must be foreign remnants absorbed Hamitic nomadic invaders or some nonsense like that. Literally pesudeo history and science from the 18th century colonial historiography is being resurrected and applied here.

Wherever all this comes from it is incredibly unfounded for more than a few reasons:


Seems unaware that even Proto-Somalis were agro-pastoral and familiar with farming that likely had its roots in Ethiopia, hence why even the south had durra as a historically staple crop (https://books.google.ae/books?id=dFk2mpfRbwwC&pg=PA6&lpg=PA6&dq=durra+in+somalia&source=bl&ots=eyysv3SeWv&sig=ACfU3U36HaS-D75aGqR1IXesCZCVUgS17g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwie552K0dDwAhWBjaQKHdzJBfUQ6AEwEnoECBUQA w#v=onepage&q=durra%20is%20the%20base%20crop&f=false) much like in various Cushitic parts of Ethiopia (https://drive.google.com/file/d/11MT8V8ntgy0YVPajJ1WJi4OvZ3vh1ymZ/view?usp=sharing).
Seems to gloss over the fact that regions east of the northwest like Sanaag, Bari and Nugaal also have a history of coastal and hinterland towns as well as silk-route trade and seafaring like the regions to their west.
Seems unaware that coastal town settling and seafaring are historically foreign concepts to Southern Ethiosemites like Hararis, Argobbas and Amharas but, ironically, not to Somalis.


So the whole 100% nomadic pastoral Somalis with no familiarity with farming and settled culture who expand west late into the game falls flat on its face. Not to mention a whole myriad of other stuff like the Futuh not really implying the things about demography claimed in this thread and the fact that there were several Somalis among the elites of the army like how both the left and right flanks of his army were led by Somalis. The left by his sister's husband, Mattan, of the Marehan and the right by his cousin via his aunt, Mohammed bin Ali, who is recounted as the chieftain of a Somali tribe called "Zarba" and led a left flank mostly comprised of Harlas. There's also Nur ibn Mujahid who took up the mantle after the Imam whose supposedly Marehan roots were not established by Somalis but western scholars like Enrico Cerulli and this German fellow (https://www.jstor.org/stable/43581078) who studied manuscripts in Harar. Not to mention that the Imam himself, whatever he was, was most likely not a Southern-Ethiosemite (SES) but of some sort of LE Cushitic origin given that he practiced the custom of "trial by fire" which is found among formerly Waaqist (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waaqeffanna) Somalis and Afars but not any SES groups like Hararis and Argobbas:


It is a common practice by the Afar and the Somali to prove the truth of a
witness by resorting to trial by fire when they face grave matters. The Afar method as
discussed by Trimingham was throwing oneself into fire or less often placing a red
hot iron axe between the hands of the suspected person, for example in theft and
make him hold it for a while to be decided by the judge who bases his verdict upon
the state of the hands of the suspect. Surprisingly, the Imam used the first method
during the sack of Lalibela.41 In an attempt to corroborate the discussion by
Trimingham, I came across the same information in the Futuh and in Tekletsadik
Mekuria‟s book mentioned earlier. In both of these works, it is reported that by the
time Gragn reached the Rock Hewn churches of Lalibela, priests were gathered in
great number ready to die for their religion. Gragn then had the articles of wood piled
up and set on fire in one of the churches, apparently not the Rock Hewn churches,
wishing to see what they would do. He put them to the test and instructed them to
select one person from the Christians and one from the Muslims, presumably to
prove the true religion. Then, the chief of the priests made himself ready to throw
into a raging blaze fanned deliberately. But before that, a certain lady who were told,
was a nun, took the initiative and threw herself into the fire and ultimately half of her
face was burnt before Gragn instructed his followers to pull her out. - source (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sch9lav9QYAiIy3JzRtPtIW2iDWiJBJM/view?usp=sharing)

The author of the above source theorizes that the Imam was of some form of Cushitic origin (Beja-Afar) at the minimum based on some of the evidence like the above he could dig up. It's honestly very interesting though how much he surrounded himself, family wise, with Somalis. Brother-in-law, a cousin and possibly even a nephew (Amir Nur). And they were all not irrelevant. One commanded his army's left wing, the other the right wing and the other took over the mantle of leadership after his death.

drobbah
05-17-2021, 03:29 PM
So the whole 100% nomadic pastoral Somalis with no familiarity with farming and settled culture who expand west late into the game falls flat on its face. Not to mention a whole myriad of other stuff like the Futuh not really implying the things about demography claimed in this thread and the fact that there were several Somalis among the elites of the army like how both the left and right flanks of his army were led by Somalis. The left by his sister's husband, Mattan, of the Marehan and the right by his cousin via his aunt, Mohammed bin Ali, who is recounted as the chieftain of a Somali tribe called "Zarba" and led a left flank mostly comprised of Harlas. There's also Nur ibn Mujahid who took up the mantle after the Imam whose supposedly Marehan roots were not established by Somalis but western scholars like Enrico Cerulli and this German fellow (https://www.jstor.org/stable/43581078) who studied manuscripts in Harar. First of all walaal Mattan bin Uthman was a Gerri Koombe, the Marexaan leader was "a treacherous Somali" by the name of Hiraabu Goita Tewedros, Sultan Muhammad bin Ali was a Harla.....
Secondly the battle formation you are describing never happened the way you are describing it.There are two occasions I recall where the chronicler mentions how the army was divided. Also Nur ibn Mujahid wasn't Somali let alone Darood.This is nothing more than Kacaan revisionist history to please the last Somali dictator Afweyne.


Then he [the imam] tied to a red standard to a spear and entrusted it to his brother-law Mattan bin Uthman bin Khaled, the Somali, their chieftain, their knight, and the most courageous and bravest of them all.There rallied to him 110 knights and 3000 infantry, along with the tribe of Harti, the tribe of Jairan and the tribe of Mazra, all of whom were Somalis

He tied a third standard, yellow and red combined, to the spear which he entrusted to the wazir Nur ibn Ibrahim.The tribes of Shewa, and the tribes of Hargaya rallied to him.At that time their chieftain was Muhammad bin Ibrahim,the brother of the Imam; and the army of Jarir whose chieftain was the half-brother of the Sultan Umar Din from his mother


So, after that, the muslims stood their ground.The tribe of the Somalis said 'it was the Harla that gave us away, while the tribe of Harla said, it was the Somali tribe that gave us away.

The Imam split his forces into three divisions: all the Somalis were in one division whose command he entrusted to Mattan; another division was made up of the [tribe of] Harla whose command he gave to the Sultan Muhammad, son of the Imam's maternal aunt; and the other division was made up of the Malasai, a people used to incursions and to a thorough-going Jihad, upon whom he could rely rely in battle: herois leaders, over whom was the Imam, who ordered them to stand resolute so that they never became disunited. At the time when the Muslims deserted, seeking their own country, these stood firm


You mean this Zarba? Even this quote seems to suggest that nomadic Somalis lived alongside Harla non-Somali citizens (farmers & city-dwellers) within the Sultanate with the vast majority of the Somalis living in what they called the "country of the Somalis".


For the moment I am [The Imam] going to a district called Zarba to pacify the country, to make peace between the citizens and the Somalis, and to mobilize an army


In the same way the tribe of Zarba came up from Harla with their lord the Sultan Muhammad with 20 knights and 300 footsoldiers


Not to mention that the Imam himself, whatever he was, was most likely not a Southern-Ethiosemite (SES) but of some sort of LE Cushitic origin given that he practiced the custom of "trial by fire" which is found among formerly Waaqist (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waaqeffanna) Somalis and Afars but not any SES groups like Hararis and Argobbas:
[/CENTER]

The Imam was a Balaw (probably Arabized Beja) with an Afar mother.There's nothing Somali about him or any of the Walashma Sultans besides sometimes giving their female relatives in marriage to Somali chieftains for alliance purposes.


His name was Ura'i Abu Bakr, from the Mahawara, of the tribe of Balaw.This is one of the Abysinnian tribes descended from the first Balaw who was their ancestor who had gone gone down to the country of Sa'ad Din from their own country Tigre, in the time time of Sa'ad Din who then married him to one of his daughters.His name was Balaw Abdallah.She bore him children children od whom each boy was called Ura'i and each girl Ba'tiya


Now Awale, why don't you answer this simple question.Where is the land of the Somalis mentioned numerous times in the Futuh? Why did the Sultans of Zeila (Walashma dynasty) differentiate themselves from the Somalis if they ruled over at minimum a presumably Somali city?


After this, one of the foremost Sultans called Ura'i Abun camed to the Imam.When the country had been torn by disputes, he had gone to live with the Somalis.He became reconciled with the Imam and the latter gave him a district for his support.


After this, the Sultan Abu Bakr, son of the Sultan Muhammad bin Azr from the stock of Sa'ad Din, stood up against Garaad Abun.He raised against him a band of Somalis whom he had recruited from among the riff-raff and highwaymen


[The Imam] doubled back towards the country of the Somali evil-doers.The Somalis were routed, and the Imam Ahmed followed them almost to the sea, a day's march.He plundered their territory thoroughly and devasted it.Then he turned round and went back


The Somalis wearied of the looting of their possessions and the the ravaging of their country, so they accom[[anied their ruler Hirabu and went to see the Imam and all of them became reconciled with him in a convenant that was sincere and agreeabe


Hiraabu chieftain of the Somali tribe of Marexaan, killed one of the equerries of the Sultan Umar Din when he was in Nagab.The Imam heard about what Hiraabu had done, and he said to the Sultan. This Somali has acted treacherously towards you and killed your equerry.So the Imam and the Sultan with him, prepared himself for an expedition and set out and arrived at the country of the Somalis, as far as Kidad. Hiraabu, meantime had fled and was hiding in his own country.......The Sharifs (Ba'Alawi) reached him in the region of the Hawiya


In the meantime the Somali tribes, since they taken booty and collected horses,mules,oxen,donkeys,slaves and fabrics held a metting by themselves.They said, "We have taken vast booty, so now let us go to the Imam and urge him to make the way clear for us to return to our country.If he agrees then there is no harm done. if he refuses, then we shall run away to our country, without his permission
[/SIZE]



Also have you noticed some of these Somalis carried what we in modern times would consider Habesha Orthodox names? Names like Hiraabu Goita Tewedros or the leader of the Habar Magaadle Garaad Dawit.What do you make of it?

Moos
05-17-2021, 07:16 PM
Oromos destroyed a lot settlements in the north west of the Somali region. That’s why you see the xeer ciise; war dances; and, many tales of Oromo raiders related to that period. The Oromos are said to have reached or raided as far as the coast. Some Somali clans reverted to nomadism because the Oromos used to attack settlements at night and only a moving, mobile defenders could thwart them.

As for Futuh, no, it doesn’t paint the Somalis as an irrelevant nomadic-mercenary group. I am not sure of a single scholar who came to that opinion.

Mirix
05-17-2021, 07:52 PM
Also Nur ibn Mujahid wasn't Somali let alone Darood.This is nothing more than Kacaan revisionist history to please the last Somali dictator Afweyne.

Nur himself was certaintly Somali there is actual medieval record to back it, it has zero to do with Afweyne revisionism. . He qouted you a German scholar and Enrico Cerulli that studied Ethiopian and Harar manuscripts were infact Nur Ibn Mujahids clan is mentioned as Duha Suhawayn and traditions relating him to Merehan. Cerulli Excerpt (https://imgbb.com/wLRfxzZ) from Storia della Somalia. L'Islām in Somalia. Il Libro degli Zeng

And even in the Ethiopian Royal chronicles in Amharic they the state that his clan was Suhawyan (Hodan Bari)


Also Nur from Suhawyan tribe. Son of Mugahid The Chronicle of King Gälawdewos (https://ediss.sub.uni-hamburg.de/bitstream/ediss/6908/1/Dissertation.pdf) Furthermore the author in hist translation added in his notations that this was a Somali clan.




I]You mean this Zarba? Even this quote seems to suggest that nomadic Somalis lived alongside Harla non-Somali citizens (farmers & city-dwellers) within the Sultanate with the vast majority of the Somalis living in what they called the "country of the Somalis".[/I]

Soomaal like i explained before was an occupational name for Pastoralists it wasn't an ethnic name at the time of Futuhs writing and i refer you to this paper that discusses this in great detail, explores the etymology and the evolution of the name post 16th century:
But other fatal problems in the form of famines epidemics and the Oromo (Galla) invasion appeared on the horizon. In the end we have a social pattern very different from what we have before the the sixteetnh century upheavals. 'Since all other modes of life were brought to end, pastorialism became the pre-dominant one. As a result, the name, Somali, which was only an occupational name prior to Jihad, evolved into an ethnic name'"Effects of sixteenth century upheavals
(https://arcadia.sba.uniroma3.it/bitstream/2307/1026/5/34_M.%20A.%20RIRASH%20-%20Effects%20of%20sixteenth%20century%20upheavals% 20on%20the%20history%20of%20the%20horn.pdf)

It was akin to the word bedouin and you forget the fact that some Somali clans mentioned in Futuh that are present today were not even mentioned as Soomaal.

Explain me this to me if Harla was seperate from Geri , Harti and Merahan at the time how come they trace the same descent as them from Ogaden Darood Ancestors?

Harla Genealogy:
https://i.imgur.com/p2e5BPa.png


https://i.imgur.com/RlzxRog.jpg


Some people even now try to switch up the story when this medieval document came up from Yemen and hypothesize that Somalis assimilated Daroods, but if that is true how come Geri , Harti and Merehan are included in the genealogy as cousins of Harla when all three of them are mentioned in Futuh as Soomaals and as Darood? See all that you are left with is contradictions if you really believe what you believe..

How come Hararis call Somalis Tumur(Tumaal) and the remnant Harla between Harar and Jigjiga speak the artisan caste dialect? It all proves the fact these distinctions were not even Ethnic at all but occupational. Which is what Somalis were known by at the time.


The Imam was a Balaw (probably Arabized Beja) with an Afar mother.T here's nothing Somali about him or any of the Walashma Sultans besides sometimes giving their female relatives in marriage to Somali chieftains for alliance purposes.

The imam was neither Afar nor Beja: Infact he was Hawiye Karanle Balow on his father side and harla on his mother side. An Ethiopian scholar obtained information from Ahmed as Sami a famous Harari scholar. He is the one who has been collecting Arabic manuscrips and collecting traditions in Harar. Tradition collaborated with written source.


The well-known Ethiopian Historian Takla Sadiq Makuria has devoted a short chapter [1973-74) to the question of origin of the Gragn and the identity of the malasay in his rough monograph on the Gragn Wars (1973/19749. In it he draws on the evidence from Arab Faiqh of the Short Chronicle and the Chronicle of Sarsa-Dengel Takla was also able to draw on the oral tradition of Harar. Through mediation of Dagazmac Wargnah he interviewed Ahmad Ali Sami, a traditional scholar in Harar. This indicates that Gran's father comes from the Hawiya(Somali tribe) in the Ogaden; a genealogy of eight generations before Gran is known in this tradtionMÄLÄSAY: SELBSTBEZEICHNUNG EINES HARARINER OFFIZIERSKORPS UND IHR GEBRAUCH IN ÄTHIOPISCHEN UND ARABISCHEN CHRONIKEN
(https://www.jstor.org/stable/40732663?seq=8#metadata_info_tab_contents)


Karanle Genealogy:
https://i.imgur.com/gCmBGmf.png



Karanle still live in the former town Hoobad in Hararghe although half of them by now have been assimilated oromo expansionists into Warra Karalle . Both Garaad Abuun and Imam Ahmed came from hereditary lineage of Reer Garaad thats how we know its authentic because it supports whats written.

Afar for example had nothing to do with Awdal was complete seperate entity from it. Not a single Afar clan is mentioned in any of the text itself let alone Beja are mentioned. They have many clans. None are mentioned. But Pastoral Somali clans and Harla daroods are mentioned in abundance. Even with their occupational names. Even in other medieval manuscripts no mentions of them but they do mention Somalis and invading oromos.

You know why? Because Afar was a seperate kingdom called Danakil way in the North , independant and seperate from Adal and was allied with Abyssinia. According to portuguese writers at that time : Even the Doba group further north for example was fighting independetly from Adal and got subdued by Abyssinians: but Danakil was strict friends with them An Universal History: From the Earliest Accounts (https://books.google.co.id/books?id=YMc-AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA301&dq=Kingdom+of+Adel+to+the+west+Dancali+strict&hl=no&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi-ip7XrtHwAhU07HMBHaHNDREQ6AEwA3oECAIQAg#v=onepage&q=Kingdom%20of%20Adel%20to%20the%20west%20Dancali% 20strict&f=false)

Contingoues to the Kingdom of Adel to the west , lies the Kingdom of Dancali ,the soverign of which is a Mahometan (Muslim), The king of it is a Mahommedan , but in strict alliance and friendship with , or , tributary to the Abyssinian emperor.

Historians have identified Dancali/Danakil with that of Saho and Afar by the red sea coast in Eritrea.

Whereas areas further to the the east like bari sanaaag (Cape Guardafui) was part of Awdal sultanate according to portuguese writers:

The kingdom of Adel ( as they say ) is a big kingdom , and it extends over the Cape of Guardafuy , and in that part another rules subject to it

And Bari and Nugaal valley for example display numerous stone ruins. You know where? deep into interior regions of Somali territories around lakes etc and springs.


Also have you noticed some of these Somalis carried what we in modern times would consider Habesha Orthodox names? Names like Hiraabu Goita Tewedros or the leader of the Habar Magaadle Garaad Dawit.What do you make of it?

It is not surprising it actually proves the opposite of what you are trying to posit, some Somalis were forcefully Christianized by Amhara during the IFat/Adal wars and others came back into the fold when the Muslims suceeded restoring control over their lands.

Both of them were probably rebellious for that reason. Other nomads rebelled because they didn't have supplies or the economic means to go into prolonged war and sided with the traditional Walashma rulers in opting for peace and whereas others like Geri (Mataan) and Harti , Hawiye etc were supportive and allies with the reformers like the Imam and Mahfuz.

drobbah
05-17-2021, 08:05 PM
Somalis were a periphery people,were not a majority of the Imam's forces especially in the later stages of the war.Yes, some Somalis nomadic clans lived within the Sultanate during that period but the vast majority lived outside of it, which the Futuh calls the country of the Somalis.

Continue on without me walaalayaal!

Mirix
05-17-2021, 08:31 PM
Somalis were a periphery people,were not a majority of the Imam's forces especially in the later stages of the war.Yes, some Somalis nomadic clans lived within the Sultanate during that period but the vast majority lived outside of it, which the Futuh calls the country of the Somalis.

Continue on without me walaalayaal!

Nothing of what you stated was said in Futuh at all , you are trying to misrepresent the chronicles and spew misinformation to fit your own Hamite invasion narrative about Somalis which you borrowed I'M Lewis. First you did the same with the archeology evidence on the first page and i included what you ommited , that essentially refuted what you said in this post: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?23810-Asia-in-the-Horn-The-Indian-Ocean-trade-in-Somaliland&p=771817#post771817

Also if we are talking about Futuh or revisionism, show me where Imam Ahmed is mentioned as Afar or what Afar clans were involved in the war. You wont find any. It's ironic you push this nomad narrative when both of these groups like Beja or Afar are mainly pastorialists themselves. Somalis are far more urbanized they are. So it makes no sense what you are arguing.

Everything i posted in reply to you is backed by medieval documents and manuscripts. The fact that Harla is Darood is not even Darood revisionism either it is literally a field mission report in to Awsa IslHornAfr 6th Field Mission Report
(http://www.islhornafr.eu/ReportAwsa2017.pdf)
This is what they found nothing tribalistic about it and they weren't employed by Kacan revisionists either since this was released by an Afar researcher in 2017 and the document they retrieved was collected from Yemen. It only confirms Somali traditions as this archeological study shows A History of Derbé Belanbel Historical and Cultural Site (https://www.longdom.org/open-access/a-history-of-derb-belanbel-historical-and-cultural-site-45124.html)

Somalis were the main inhabitants in the horn stretching from North & Hararghe into Showa and the Kingdom of Adals stretched over Cape Guardafui to the east according to portuguese writers and Futuh, but many of those Somali groups inn Hararge to the West and beyond were assimilated by Oromo during their expansions. The Great Oromo Expansions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oromo_migrations) are fully documented by Abysinian historians like Bahrey and Portuguese writers like Almeida , Bermudas etc and even in Adal manuscripts preserved by Somalis

Awale
05-17-2021, 08:35 PM
Okay, walaal. Before I reply individually to some of the stuff you've said I need you to address the things I've pointed out before and will add to a bit now. It's important you not gloss over these things as they pretty much invalidate much of your earlier stated hypothesis:

[X] Somalis were definitely never strict pastoral-nomads and always had an agro-pastoral and sedentary farmer subset going back over 1,500 years.

[X] There are historical coastal and hinterland towns in Sanaag, Bari and Nugaal including quite sizable ruined hinterland towns as far east as Nugaal (https://media.africaportal.org/documents/Understanding_the_Drivers_of_Drought_in_Somalia.pd f) so your theory that pure pastoral nomad Somalis with no familiarity with urbanism, farming and so forth expanded westwards and absorbed more "civilized" people falls flat on its face.

[X] There is no linguistic evidence for what you're claiming regarding a large non-Somali population in the northwest being absorbed. No Somali dialect that I know of has a Southern Ethiosemitic or Afar substratum, in fact the latter from what I've been told has an adstratum influence on Somali (came later).

[X] There is also no genetic evidence. I mean even what you pointed out recently with your father and you is very weak. Elevated Mota influence? I've seen that in other Somali regions to the east and it's not exactly what I'd expect for what you're claiming. We can talk about this when you find things like elevated J1 and J2 frequencies with quite elevated South-Arabian ancestry but so far that is definitely not what the northwest is looking like. You and your father have shown these elevated Mota influences for a long time and, honestly, they look more like something Oromo-Wolayta-like to me than anything like Habeshas.

[X] The northwest is definitely still a mostly arid region (https://edepot.wur.nl/484560) and always was, especially before modern agricultural techniques. Most of its land is good for pastoral nomadism, not settled farming. It would have always supported a large pastoral nomadic and agro-pastoral nomadic population rather than a majority settled farmer population. Not to mention most historical accounts by Arabs make it fairly obvious that there was always a large nomadic population around areas like Zeila and Berbera. There's even the absurdly damning account by al-Umari in the 1300s where he mentions that the local people "cultivate two times annually by seasonal rains … The rainfall for the winter is called ‘Bil’ and rainfall for the ‘summer’ is called ‘Karam’ in the language of the people of Zayla" as these are straight cut outs from the Somali calendar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somali_calendar) and not even Ethiosemitic.

[X] There is no known history or tradition of seafaring, boatbuilding or coastal settling by Southern Ethiosemites. It is simply not their thing. Most scholars who agree that they were present in the northwest generally assume their nucleus was in the hinterland and that the coast was mostly Somali for the obvious reason that, as I've shown you, Somalis have a well-established tradition of coastal settling, boat-building and sailing like Arabians and other coastal Cushites.

I would really appreciate that you explain away all of this, walaal.


First of all walaal Mattan bin Uthman was a Gerri Koombe, the Marexaan leader was "a treacherous Somali" by the name of Hiraabu Goita Tewedros, Sultan Muhammad bin Ali was a Harla.....
Secondly the battle formation you are describing never happened the way you are describing it.There are two occasions I recall where the chronicler mentions how the army was divided. Also Nur ibn Mujahid wasn't Somali let alone Darood.This is nothing more than Kacaan revisionist history to please the last Somali dictator Afweyne.

Please keep all the Somali clan politics stuff out of this, abowe. Anyway, I pointed out fairly clearly that him being Marehan wasn't originally claimed by Somalis at all but by scholars who went to Harar and read historical manuscripts there like Enrico Cerulli and that German I linked to. You think they were trying to please Siyaad Barre?


Secondly the battle formation you are describing never happened the way you are describing it.There are two occasions I recall where the chronicler mentions how the army was divided. Also Nur ibn Mujahid wasn't Somali let alone Darood.This is nothing more than Kacaan revisionist history to please the last Somali dictator Afweyne.


I've read the book (https://docs.google.com/document/d/13i1NLRvWx1dY6zc5d5x9zg0oNxygIiFv8ByorktIeM4/edit?usp=sharing) and it's stated that the Harla division is holding up the rightwing whereas the Somalis are holding up the left and, finally the center is held by a seemingly elite force ("Malasai"). Tne right is commanded by the Imam's maternal cousin, Muhammad bin Ali, the left is commanded by his brother-in-law whom I did err in classifying as a Marehan as he is indeed a Geri Kombe Somali whereas the center is held down by the Imam himself:


The storyteller; may God have mercy upon him, says: The imam Ahmad, may the Most High God have mercy upon him, summoned the sultan Muhammad son of the sultan 'All, son of his maternal aunt, and the sheikh Ans, son of the shiekh Sihab bin ‘Abd al-Wahab, son of the sheikh Biiba, " and put under their command all the tribes of the Harla, as for instance the tribe of Zaman Bara, the tribe of Barzara with their chieftain, the tribe of Yaqula, and the tribe of Jasar. the tribe of'Arab Tka, and the tribe of al-Qa: all of these belonged to the Harla. The imam commanded them to hold the Muslims’ right.


Then in the same way the right wing of the idolaters charged the left wing of the Muslims, made up of the Somali tribes, while the tribes of Tegre and the depraved patricians charged the centre where the imam Ahmad, may God may mercy upon him, was. The imam and his soldiers confronted them w'ith Islamic hearts and Muhammadan high-mindedness.


As for Muhammad bin Ali being a Somali that seems based on secondary sources who assume the Zarba, who appear a subgroup of the Harla, are Somalis which might not be entirely unfounded like Mirix points out. But either way, at least 1-2 people among his foremost commanders were Somalis and his own sister was married off to one. Is that something that is normally done for periphery mercenary people?


Now Awale, why don't you answer this simple question.Where is the land of the Somalis mentioned numerous times in the Futuh? Why did the Sultans of Zeila (Walashma dynasty) differentiate themselves from the Somalis if they ruled over at minimum a presumably Somali city?

The Futuh would probably not call areas more along the west where it points out that Somali tribes live among other groups as strictly Somali like ("Country of the Somalis") but where is Zeila or Awdal ever mentioned not to be inhabited by Somalis or to be majority anything non-Somali? Zeila is mentioned like 8 times in the book (https://docs.google.com/document/d/13i1NLRvWx1dY6zc5d5x9zg0oNxygIiFv8ByorktIeM4/edit?usp=sharing) and nothing is really stated about its demography. Even the Harla whom I guess you think were the majority in that area are mentioned about 11 times in the book and never once as the majority of Zeila or some grand elite or anything like that. Somalis in comparison come up 77 times. And please explain how these quotes imply that Walashma are definitely not Somali:


After this, one of the foremost Sultans called Ura'i Abun camed to the Imam.When the country had been torn by disputes, he had gone to live with the Somalis.He became reconciled with the Imam and the latter gave him a district for his support.


After this, the Sultan Abu Bakr, son of the Sultan Muhammad bin Azr from the stock of Sa'ad Din, stood up against Garaad Abun.He raised against him a band of Somalis whom he had recruited from among the riff-raff and highwaymen


The Somalis wearied of the looting of their possessions and the the ravaging of their country, so they accom[[anied their ruler Hirabu and went to see the Imam and all of them became reconciled with him in a convenant that was sincere and agreeabe


Hiraabu chieftain of the Somali tribe of Marexaan, killed one of the equerries of the Sultan Umar Din when he was in Nagab.The Imam heard about what Hiraabu had done, and he said to the Sultan. This Somali has acted treacherously towards you and killed your equerry.So the Imam and the Sultan with him, prepared himself for an expedition and set out and arrived at the country of the Somalis, as far as Kidad. Hiraabu, meantime had fled and was hiding in his own country.......The Sharifs (Ba'Alawi) reached him in the region of the Hawiya


In the meantime the Somali tribes, since they taken booty and collected horses,mules,oxen,donkeys,slaves and fabrics held a metting by themselves.They said, "We have taken vast booty, so now let us go to the Imam and urge him to make the way clear for us to return to our country.If he agrees then there is no harm done. if he refuses, then we shall run away to our country, without his permission

Let me add to those quotes, walaal:


After this, the sultan Abu Bakr,42 son of the sultan Muhammad bin Azr from the stock of Sacd ad-Din, stood up against Garad Abun. He raised against him a band of Somalis4' whom he had recruited from among the riff raff and highwaymen. They fought against Garad Abun and waged a bloody battle against him, killing Garad Abun bin Adas in his homeland as he defended his country and his family44 He died a martyr’s death. May the Most High God have pity on him.



When the sultan and the Somalis he had with him heard the news about them and what they had done during the jihad against the infidels, and the booty they had taken, they were overcome with anxiety and fear, and fled the country, he and the Somalis with him, to a town called Kidad in the country of the Somalis.

The imam Ahmad bin Ibrahim and his companions heard news of the flight of the sultan and his Somalis from the country, and set out alter them and reached Kidad and ran the sultan and his Somalis to earth in a place called Qam - a river filled with much water - at mid-day.'4

They organised their forces and joined battle, and the sultan and his Somalis were put to flight. A troop of them was killed. The imam took thirty horses from amongst their mounts, as booty. They sacked their country, and collected vast booty from it. The imam and his companions returned to their country, Harar, part of the land of Sabd ad-Din.53

They had not settled down very long when the sultan Abu Bakr assembled a force against the imam Ahmad and his companions, made up of an immense army of Somalis and others. Their horses and troops were so numerous as to be incalculable. They all rcached the district, that is to say, Harar. When the imam and his companions heard of their coming, they withdrew from the country and proceeded to the town called Hubat Zcbcrta. In Hubat there was a high mountain which they climbed.



The sultan found out about the imam and his taking over his country as well as his horses, and made preparations for attacking him. He assembled a vast army from the country of the Somalis and beyond. Bringing with him innumerable horses and a great army, he drew near to where the imam was.


Seems to me like the Sultan generally had a thing for recruiting forces from among Somalis in particular. He is never explicitly called a "Somali" himself but that still doesn't rule anything out as the Futuh avoids explicitly stating the tribe of the top Adal elites for whatever reason, the Imam included. Some historians think this was very deliberate in order to not make the jihad out to be an ethnic conflict or one or so group's war. That is definitely something you ought to be mentioning, walaal. That leaders like the Sultan and the Imam are never clearly stated to belong to any particular group. It's actually very weird because if you read the Futuh it almost always immediately gives you a leader's tribal origins. But for the Imam and the Walashma it's a blank. Even for Mahfuz from what I remember. I see what some of these scholars mean about a deliberate attempt to conceal their identities. That being said, if the Sultans are something like the Harla, why is it that everytime they are mentioned they mainly recruit from among the Somalis? Out of the 77 times Somalis are mentioned in the book at least 20 or so of those times seem to be in relation to the Sultan whereas Harlas are mentioned a total of 11 times in the book and not once in relation to the Walashma Sultan.

Besides, do you really think a man who wrote up a Somali nomenclature for the Arabic script (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wadaad_writing) (see here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pwm8HLjFmts)) and who went by Shaykh Abu Barakat al Barbari, which is like going by "al-Somali" to medieval Arabs, was not a Somali? And that guy is recounted as their founding ancestor, walaal. I also don't think medieval Arabs were blind. The simple fact is that they knew "Bebera/Berberi" people as dark-skinned herders and made no real distinction between the ones in the north and ones in the south or those in the west and east. I think they would have noticed or been told about the differences by locals if the northwest was basically medieval Harari land whilst the east and south were where actual Somalis could be found.


Also have you noticed some of these Somalis carried what we in modern times would consider Habesha Orthodox names? Names like Hiraabu Goita Tewedros or the leader of the Habar Magaadle Garaad Dawit.What do you make of it?

What Mirix says about forced conversions and an eventual return to Islam by them or their descendants sounds sensible. In fact, I remember such an instance being described in the Futuh.

Mirix
05-17-2021, 09:54 PM
Okay, walaal. Before I reply individually to some of the stuff you've said I need you to address the things I've pointed out before and will add to a bit now. It's important you not gloss over these things as they pretty much invalidate much of your earlier stated hypothesis:

[spoiler][X] Somalis were definitely never strict pastoral-nomads and always had an agro-pastoral and sedentary farmer subset going back over 1,500 years.

You are very right on this the earliest Somalis were infact agro-pastorals, practiced farming supplemented with cattle and commerce with the coastal cities and that it seems from the looks of it according Historical linguistics.

Infact linguistic evidence shows abundance of native cultivation related words in the both Northern and coastal and southern Somali language dialects: A LINGUISTIC OUTLINE OF EARLY SOMALI HISTORY (https://escholarship.org/content/qt450167x3/qt450167x3_noSplash_665052b57816fbda4463f9ed1bd2bf 91.pdf)


Heine's linguistic analysis doesn't explain the presence of proto-Somali cultivation and cattle vocabulary, which are
available widely in both Coastal-Northern and Riverine dialects , as demonstrated below.

A significant cultivation vocabulary can be traced to the proto- Somali era, including such words as:

qot : 'to dig, to cultiv~te'

masango: 'sorghum'

mooye: 'mortar'

Kibis: 'bread'


In a different thread he tried to suggest that Bantus influenced farming in the south but there is no linguistic or cultural evidence for this at all. Farming goes back to proto-Somali era, it was introduced 6000 years ago.

Al-Umari pretty much confirms that North Western Somalis engaged in farming, he even confirms that Somalis were main inhabitants of Zeila by his discription of their language. In the south Al Idrisi even relay how Hawiye were agro-pastoral famers along Shabelle rivers in the Merka and Mogadishu hinterland cultivating Durra.

Somalis seem to have practiced economically varried activities throughout their history.


Seems to me like the Sultan generally had a thing for recruiting forces from among Somalis in particular. He is never explicitly called a "Somali" himself but that still doesn't rule anything out as the Futuh avoids explicitly stating the tribe of the top Adal elites for whatever reason, the Imam included. Some historians think this was very deliberate in order to not make the jihad out to be an ethnic conflict or one or so group's war. That is definitely something you ought to be mentioning, walaal. That leaders like the Sultan and the Imam are never clearly stated to belong to any particular group. It's actually very weird because if you read the Futuh it almost always immediately gives you a leader's tribal origins. But for the Imam and the Walashma it's a blank. Even for Mahfuz from what I remember. I see what some of these scholars mean about a deliberate attempt to conceal their identities. That being said, if the Sultans are something like the Harla, why is it that everytime they are mentioned they mainly recruit from among the Somalis? Out of the 77 times Somalis are mentioned in the book at least 20 or so of those times seem to be in relation to the Sultan whereas Harlas are mentioned a total of 11 times in the book and not once in relation to the Walashma Sultan.

Besides, do you really think a man who wrote up a Somali nomenclature for the Arabic script (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wadaad_writing) (see here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pwm8HLjFmts)) and who went by Shaykh Abu Barakat al Barbari, which is like going by "al-Somali" to medieval Arabs, was not a Somali? And that guy is recounted as their founding ancestor, walaal. I also don't think medieval Arabs were blind. The simple fact is that they knew "Bebera/Berberi" people as dark-skinned herders and made no real distinction between the ones in the north and ones in the south or those in the west and east. I think they would have noticed or been told about the differences by locals if the northwest was basically medieval Harari land whilst the east and south were where actual Somalis could be found.

I don't think there was deliberate attempt in Futuh to conceal identites for example it only mentions the clan accompanying that said person and some peoples clans are not mentioned because they were not clan leaders or cheiftains.

Both Garaad Abun and Imam Ahmed for example their clan is not mentioned despite the fact that their fathers clan Garaad Ibrahim and Garaad Cadaadshe are mentioned as Balow because they were leader of it. Whereas the other two were non-clanal rulers comanding a large diverse group. The same with the sultans they were state rulers.

Furthermore the whole book is written by an Arab Faqih he is an outsider that is included in and gives vague unexplained impressions throughout the book , he doesn't even relate what language people spoke and says ''The language of the Muslims''. Like what is that? He records what he sees and hears. Barely interested in explaining or going in depth. Employs Arab style literary tradition when he speaks about people.

But despite that you can easily infer what clan Walashma rulers were and they were most likely Harla Darood from the looks of it. When Ibn Said spoke about Walashma he recorded Harla in the place they resisded in at Awfat. The Walashma trace descent from Aqeel ibn Talib and Al-Jabarti which is esentially the Darood clan lineage and the region from North and West was called Land of Jabarta which is what they called Darood clans at that time and they also trace descent from Aw Barkhadle like many other Somalis do.

The rulers used Somali saintly traditions and reappropiated the pagan Waaq rituals to legitimize their rule according to Sada Mire:Divine Fertility: The Continuity in Transformation of an Ideology of Sacred (books.google.com/books?id=J6nODwAAQBAJ&pg=PA69&dq=Somali+genealogy+Sada+Mire&hl=no&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjk7In80dHwAhXCBhAIHV9eBykQ6AEwAHoECAYQA g#v=onepage&q=Somali%20genealogy%20Sada%20Mire&f=false)

Mnemonics
05-18-2021, 03:37 AM
Camels are not everyday meat in the Horn. These animals are slaughtered “on feast days, religious occasions of special significance, and for the important occasions of births, marriages and deaths only.This suggests Ibn Battuta came during a medieval trade fair which probably attracted nomadic Somalis from the east but also different folks in the region (like the possibly Ethio-Semitic Harla).Also it is very likely non-Somali (Cushitic or heavlily Cushitic admixed) population lived in Zeila and Ibn Battuta wouldn't be able to differentiate between the different Horners.



Zeila was very likely heavily Somali by the 14th Century if not from the very beginning. A source that was written within Ibn Battuta lifespan distinguishes between the Habasha and the Az-Zayla' who were Muslims occupied the land south of them. Which when considered Ibn Battuta's account supports the case that the city was likely heavily Somali.




The countries (lying south of Egypt) are very numerous and contain many different peoples such as the Ḥabasha, the Zanj, the Nūba, the Takrūr, the Zayla' and others

"South of the Ḥabasha live the Zayla' among whom the prevailing religion is Islam."

-Abu-l-Fida, Taqwīm al-buldān, 1321 AD








An earlier source from the 10th century on the other hand indicate that Zeila was somehow tied to the Abyssinian Empire.




The chief town of the Ḥabasha is called Ku'bar, which is a large town and the residence of the Najāshī, whose empire extends to the coasts, opposite to Yemen, and possesses such towns as Zayla', Dahlak and Nāsi'.

Al-Mas'udi, Mūrūj adh-dhahab wa-ma'ādin al-jawāhir, 956 AD.



These earlier source unfortunately doesn't distinguish between various African populations very well, Al-Mas'udi seemed to use Habasha to refer to a very wide variety of peoples. Interestingly he also seems to have called labeled some Waaqist Cushitic population Zanj which was a title that was typically limited to Southeast African populations in both earlier and later texts.

Mirix
05-18-2021, 06:07 AM
Zeila was very likely heavily Somali by the 14th Century if not from the very beginning. A source that was written within Ibn Battuta lifespan distinguishes between the Habasha and the Az-Zayla' who were Muslims occupied the land south of them. Which when considered Ibn Battuta's account supports the case that the city was likely heavily Somali.








An earlier source from the 10th century on the other hand indicate that Zeila was somehow tied to the Abyssinian Empire.



These earlier source unfortunately doesn't distinguish between various African populations very well, Al-Mas'udi seemed to use Habasha to refer to a very wide variety of peoples. Interestingly he also seems to have called labeled some Waaqist Cushitic population Zanj which was a title that was typically limited to Southeast African populations in both earlier and later texts.

Al Umari in his study pretty much describes the language and cultivation practices of the Awdal populations: Somali Calendar (https://web.archive.org/web/20130921053608/http://wardheer.startlogic.com/public_html/Articles%202012/Dec/31_Somali_calendar_Said.pdf)


In his study in 1340s about the history of Awdal, the medieval state in western and northern parts of historical Somalia and some related
areas, Al-Umari of Cairo states that in the land of Zayla’ (Awdal) “they cultivate two times annually by seasonal rains … The rainfall for the winter is called ‘Bil’ and rainfall for the ‘summer’ is called ‘Karam’ in the language of the people of Zayla’ [Awdali Somalis].”21 The author’s description about seasons generally corresponds to the local seasons in historical Awdal where Karan or Karam is an important rainy season at the beginning of the year. The second half of the year is called ‘Bilo Dirir’, (bil = month; bilo = months).


But the name Awdal makes it painfully obvious. The fact it's recorded in that spelling in the 13th century by Al-Dimashqi and Somalis still know Zeila surrounding regions by this name Is proof enough: The Cambridge History of Africa: (https://books.google.cd/books?id=GWjxR61xAe0C&pg=PA139&dq=But+there+is+no+doubt+Zeila+was++predominately+ Somali&hl=no&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiZrfGGxdLwAhXIlosKHYIyBtYQ6AEwAHoECAEQA g#v=onepage&q=But%20there%20is%20no%20doubt%20Zeila%20was%20%2 0predominately%20Somali&f=false)


But there is no doubt that Zeila was also predominantly Somali, and Al-Dimashqi, another thirteen-century Arab writer, gives the city name its Somali name Awdal (Adal), still known among the local Somali.


Furthermore i have seen some authors mistankingly translate Habashi into Abyssinian or Ethiopian but when medieval Arab writers used it was a broad Ethno-geographical term that hardly if ever distinguished between the different Cushitic/Semetic horner groups from eachother and most often than not they were speaking of Coastal muslims by the red sea and not Christian Highlanders:

This book examining medieval and early modern Muslim texts carefully explains it: Jews, Christians and Muslims in Medieval and Early Modern Times (https://books.google.cd/books?id=Dk6hAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA51&dq=appear+abyssinian+red+sea+muslim+habashi&hl=no&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiNy-7JxdLwAhVBx4sKHTlTCFoQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg#v=onepage&q=appear%20abyssinian%20red%20sea%20muslim%20habas hi&f=false):


The rest of the designations are broadly ethno-geographical. Red Sea East Africans appear as Ḥabashī, or Abyssinian, which in the Geniza context generally applies to Muslims from the Red Sea coastlands rather than from the Ethiopian highlands.


A lot of them were broadly ethno-graphical terms. But their mode of life etc and the description of their language reveals who they were.

Awale
05-19-2021, 07:25 AM
You are very right on this the earliest Somalis were infact agro-pastorals, practiced farming supplemented with cattle and commerce with the coastal cities and that it seems from the looks of it according Historical linguistics.

What I find confusing about all this is that the Futuh itself explicitly states that the Somalis have cities and mentions one town, Kidad, which drobbah has quoted himself:


Those Somalis who had entered the service of the imam Ahmad and the previously mentioned Sultan Ura‘i Abun, were with the imam as w'e mentioned before, and the tribe of Habr Maqdi, which the imam put to flight, had plundered their territory.

The tribe of Girri complained to the imam, saying to him, ‘They would never have ravaged our country if we had not entered your service, and made peace with you’. This distressed the imam Ahmad who organised his forces and went to the country of the Somalis, to the Habr Maqdi who were engaging in brigandage and plundering the possessions of the Muslims, time after time.

The imam defeated them and plundered their wealth a second time, destroying their cities which he reduced to ashes and then he turned around and went back to his country.


When the sultan and the Somalis he had with him heard the news about them and what they had done during the jihad against the infidels, and the booty they had taken, they were overcome with anxiety and fear, and fled the country, he and the Somalis with him, to a town called Kidad in the country of the Somalis.


So what is all this about pure pastoral nomads with no concept of urbanism? The document itself refutes this.


Now Awale, why don't you answer this simple question.Where is the land of the Somalis mentioned numerous times in the Futuh? Why did the Sultans of Zeila (Walashma dynasty) differentiate themselves from the Somalis if they ruled over at minimum a presumably Somali city?

I apologize cos I didn't give this bit a full reply earlier as I had to go. But I'm confused, walaal. Are you implying that the "Country of the Somalis" mentioned about four times in the book is somewhere far to the east like eastern Somaliland and Puntland? That doesn't make sense to me:



Among the Somali tribes there was another called Habr Maqdi, from which the imam had demanded the alms tax. They refused to pay it, resorting to banditry on the roads, and acting evilly towards the country. The imam set out for a locality known as Ra’bud, between the country of the Muslims and the country of the infidels, as if he intended going on to Abyssinia. But then he doubled back towards the country of the Somali evil doers. The Somalis were routed, and the imam Ahmad followed them almost to the sea, a day’s march. He plundered their territory thoroughly and devastated it. Then he turned round and went back.

Those Somalis who had entered the service of the imam Ahmad and the previously mentioned Sultan Ura‘i Abun, were with the imam as w'e mentioned before, and the tribe of Habr Maqdi, which the imam put to flight, had plundered their territory.

The tribe of Girri complained to the imam, saying to him, ‘They would never have ravaged our country if we had not entered your service, and made peace with you’. This distressed the imam Ahmad who organised his forces and went to the country of the Somalis, to the Habr Maqdi who were engaging in brigandage and plundering the possessions of the Muslims, time after time.

The imam defeated them and plundered their wealth a second time, destroying their cities which he reduced to ashes and then he turned around and went back to his country.

The Somalis wearied of the looting of their possessions and the ravaging of their country, so they accompanied their ruler Hirabu and went to see the imam, and all of them became reconciled with him in a covenant that was sincere and agreeable.


The storyteller; may God have mercy upon him, says: Then Hirabu the chieftain of the Somali tribe of Marraihan, killed one of the equerries of the sultan ‘Umar Din when he was in Nagab. The imam heard about what Hirabu had done, and he said to the Sultan ‘Umar Din, 'This Somali has acted treacherously towards you and killed your equerry,’ So the imam, and the sultan with him, prepared himself for an expedition and set out and arrived at the country of the Somalis, as far as Kidad. Hirabu, meantime, had fled and was hiding in his own country.

The imam asked the sultan, ‘What shall we do now? I am going to send for him to hand over the horses, and to pay the blood-money. If he does so, then all is well; if he does not, then I shall go against him, while you go back to your country.’ So the imam sent to Hirabu to hand over the horses, and to pay the blood-money to some sharifs of the family of Ba ‘Alawi, the Husainites, may God bless us through their means.

| [The sixth jihad ]

The sharifs reached him in the region of the Hawiya where he was. He greeted them courteously, and sent back with them the horses and the
blood-money. They returned to Kidad and handed over the horses and the blood-money to the imam Ahmad and the sultan. The imam then said to the sultan, ‘This Hirabu has done all that we asked of him. The sultan and the chieftains replied, ‘Let us return to our country/ To which the imam rejoined, "Rather, let us set off on a raid into the country of Bali.


In these mentions of the "Country of the Somalis" the territory is apparently close enough to the border between Muslim and Christian lands for him to just immediately double back from being on the edge and raid it. And at one point he is mentioned to be in the region of the "Hawiya (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawiye)". Then of course the chieftain he is chasing down in the second set of quotes is Marehan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marehan). Do you believe Marehans and Hawiyes lived as far east as Sanaag and beyond back then? Even though all later historical accounts of these clans outside of southern Somalia tells us they lived even further west than Awdal and in the general vicinity of Harar with no signs of them anywhere as far east as Sanaag (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sanaag,+Somalia/@10.2841086,45.1744018,7z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x3d9018aae2ffef25:0xa8f47 9619e7ed150!8m2!3d10.3938218!4d47.7637565), Sool (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sool,+Somalia/@8.8824038,45.2333428,7z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x3d9c8c9ebdb4bb51:0xa4c3e 065a222c2ac!8m2!3d8.7221556!4d47.7637565), Bari (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Bari,+Somalia/@10.1539204,47.9178712,7z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x3da2983597d2bfff:0x772f8c63d3c55 a9e!8m2!3d10.1203847!4d49.6911374) or Nugaal (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Nugal,+Somalia/@8.1592271,46.7372059,7z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x3d9e0d8d7ef699bb:0xd28dd70cec671 843!8m2!3d8.2173496!4d49.2030851)? Then we have the other two tribes mentioned, the Girri (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darod#Clan_tree) and the Habr Maqdi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadabuursi). You believe Dirs and Geri Kombes lived as far east as Sanaag back then? Also, notice which clan is never mentioned when "The Country of the Somalis" is used in these 4 instances in the book; the Harti (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harti) who are associated in the Futuh with the settlement of Maydh (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maydh) far away to the east in Sanaag. So I really am confused if your argument is that the country of the Somalis is some far eastern, periphery region when it clearly seems very much to the west, near the border with Christian lands and seemingly not far from places like Harar.

Another thing to keep in mind is that there are two main "countries" spoken of in the book. "The Country of the Muslims" and "The Country of the Christians". All the other countries and regions appear mere districts of these two. In fact, at one point the Somali and Harla territories where the same Somali tribes mentioned above live are both referred to as "districts" from which the Imam recruits troops:



It was after this that the Mahra party and the sharif Muhammad reached the imam who feted their coming on account of the jihad ; and then he sent to all the districts of the Somalis and to the tribes of Harla. Then all the tribes rose up.

The first tribe to come up was the Habr Maqdi with their lord Garad Dawit, fifty knights and five-hundred foot-soldiers. After them the Marraihan came up, with their lord Ahmad bin Hirabu, with eighty knights and seven-hundred foot-soldiers. After them came up the Gorgorah (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurgura) with Garad kabd their chieftain, and thirty knights and one-thousand foot-soldiers.

Then the tribe of Girri came up, with their chieftain Garad Mattan along with eighty knights and one-thousand foot-soldiers. In the same way the tribe of Zarba came up from Harla with their lord the sultan Muhammad with twenty knights and three-hundred foot-soldiers. The tribes assembled - all of them volunteers and on good terms with one another. The number of the horses in readiness was around five-hundred, and there were twelve-thousand foot-soldiers, not to mention those who carried the provisions and other things besides.

There is even a "Muslim district" not named after Somalis that was at one point controlled by Somali tribes:


It was while the Muslims were encamped in the region of Ayfars, that Farasaham ‘All came to them, accompanied by six knights and two-hundred foot-soldiers. He embraced Islam, and his conversion was genuine. This man had been a Muslim who had gone up from Jalbi, a Muslim district, at the time when the Somalis had taken control of it after the death of the Sultan Muhammad, may the Most High God have mercy upon him. He made up his mind to go up to the land of Abyssinia, with Ahmad Goita and soldiers from the people of Najab.

And judging by the fact that the Muslims provision themselves in Kidad, in the country of the Somalis, then set off for Bali and end up in this place called Jalbi on the way you can assume it is somewhere between Bali, which is this (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Bale,+Ethiopia/@6.7617504,38.1212461,7z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x17c9c06d6e2ccfa5:0xf2aba 1a3172e8a5a!8m2!3d6.7606468!4d40.3088626) far west, and this particular Somali region:


So then the Muslims, provisioned from Kidad, set off in the direction of Bali until they came to one of the Muslim provinces in the land of Jalbi, called Dalfal: the market place of Jalbi. The people of the country made them welcome and the sharif Hasem bin ‘Umar as-Satari, the sharif sheikh bin ‘Abd Allah and Hasem bin az-Zafai met with them. This latter was a well- known mystic, God’s servant, a holy man and famous. May the Most High God have mercy upon them all; may they shower down their blessings upon us. They made the Muslims welcome, and these rested four days in Dalfai. Then they organised themselves, and marched off towards Bali arriving at a place known as the Wabi, a mighty river that flowed through many countries. We mentioned it earlier on in the book.

Why provision yourself in a region as far away as Sanaag or even Togdheer (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Togdheer,+Somalia/@9.0629043,43.5671491,7z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x3d86ecc07eefccd9:0x45d96945648af f31!8m2!3d9.4460587!4d45.2993862) to go to Bali? And how did periphery mercenary people come to control a Muslim region seemingly close to Bali? So I don't know where you get this impression that the Country of the Somalis mentioned in the Futuh is some separate entity off to the east and not just a sub-region of the wider Muslim lands the Imam and the Sultans exert their influence over.


Somalis were a periphery people,were not a majority of the Imam's forces especially in the later stages of the war.Yes, some Somalis nomadic clans lived within the Sultanate during that period but the vast majority lived outside of it, which the Futuh calls the country of the Somalis.

Continue on without me walaalayaal!!

I would advise against personalizing discussions, walaal. It is against the rules here. Not to mention the fact that your accusations seem a little ridiculous given that the sources myself and Mirix shared are from non-Somalis like an Italian, a German and an Afar who did things like review manuscripts in Harar and speak to people involved in all this in person. What on earth does any of that have to do with Afweyn? For the non-Somalis reading; drobbah is implying things like Nur ibn Mujahid being Marehan and the Harla being Darods is pre-civil war propaganda made to please the dictator Siyaad Barre (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siad_Barre) (Afweyn = big mouth / a nod at this overbite, rofl) who was of Marehan origins. Unfounded but also pretty offensive considering I have relatives who were murdered on the man's orders.


Harla Genealogy

The Harla are mentioned a total of 8 times in the book (word used 11 times):


So, after that, the Muslims stood their ground. The tribe of the Somalis said, 'it was the tribe of Harla2"1 that gave us away,’ while the tribe of Harla said, it was the Somali tribe that gave us away’.

...

The imam split his forces into three divisions: all the Somalis were in one division whose command he entrusted to Mattan; another division was made up of the [tribe of] Harla whose command he gave to the sultan Muhammad, son of the imam’s maternal aunt; and the other division was made up of the Malasai. a people used to incursions and to a thorough-going jihad upon whom he could rely in battle: heroic leaders, over whom was the imam, who ordered them to stand resolute so that they never became disunited. At the time when the Muslims deserted, seeking their own country, these stood firm

...

The storyteller; may God have mercy upon him, says: The imam Ahmad, may the Most High God have mercy upon him, summoned the sultan Muhammad son of the sultan 'All, son of his maternal aunt, and the sheikh Ans, son of the shiekh Sihab bin ‘Abd al-Wahab, son of the sheikh Biiba, " and put under their command all the tribes of the Harla, as for instance the tribe of Zaman Bara, the tribe of Barzara with their chieftain, the tribe of Yaqula, and the tribe of Jasar. the tribe of Arab Tka, and the tribe of al-Qa: all of these belonged to the Harla. The imam commanded them to hold the Muslims’ right.

...

Now for what happened to those from the people of Harla who were holding the Muslim right wing: the first, second and third ranks [of the Abyssinians] charged them, and the fighting between them revolved like a mill-stone, with men's heads being cut off. The Abyssinians committed more forces against the Muslim right. But the Muslims endured with a remarkable endurance.

...

Among the leaders of the Muslims who were killed was Hamzah al- Juf who died a martyr on this day. may God the Most High have mercy upon him. Also killed was Jadid Kurju; and the muezzin of Garad Abun, Kabir Ibrahim; and the Qur’anic teacher Muhammad the preacher from Sim; Dallu [of] Bali; Muhammad [of] Dawaro. Five-thousand Muslims from the tribes of the Somalis, Harla, Malasai and desert Arabs were killed. God put his seal of martyrdom upon them, introducing them to the Garden of delights, bestowed upon them the pleasures of the table, houris with black eyes, and lavished on them his all-pervasive Favour. In it [the garden of paradise] lasting blessing shall be theirs; abiding there for ever. Surely God carries a mighty reward with him'.

...


Thereupon the emir Husain bin Abu Bakr al-Gaturl arose and said to the imam Ahmad, ‘This will never happen. If they want war. then we will assemble our armies from the people of Sim and from the Somali tribes: the tribe of Girri, the tribe of Habr Maqdi, the tribe of Harla, for our armies have been dispersed. How can we do as they wish? We shall not surrender the country to them.’

...

The storyteller, may the Most High God have mercy upon him, says: When the desire for a raiding party and a jihad had been rekindled in the imam Ahmad, may the Most High God have mercy upon him, he went down, first of all, to a country called Zarba, in the region of Harla. Then he sent to Zayla‘ to have weapons of war, swords and the like, procured for him. He also ordered them to buy for him some cannon because he wanted to take them with him on the raid into Abyssinia. They bought him what he desired and brought back to him seven cannon.

...

It was after this that the Mahra party and the sharif Muhammad reached the imam who feted their coming on account of the jihad ; and then he sent to all the districts of the Somalis and to the tribes of Harla. Then all the tribes rose up.

The first tribe to come up was the Habr Maqdi with their lord Garad Dawit, fifty knights and five-hundred foot-soldiers. After them the Marraihan came up, with their lord Ahmad bin Hirabu, with eighty knights and seven-hundred foot-soldiers. After them came up the Gorgorah with Garad kAbd their chieftain, and thirty knights and one-thousand foot-soldiers.

Then the tribe of Girri came up, with their chieftain Garad Mattan along with eighty knights and one-thousand foot-soldiers. In the same way the tribe of Zarba came up from Harla with their lord the sultan Muhammad with twenty knights and three-hundred foot-soldiers. The tribes assembled - all of them volunteers and on good terms with one another.


In about 4 of those instances the Harla are spoken of like they are a separate entity from the Somali tribes whereas in one where they are mentioned above with the Habar Maqdi and Geri Kombe they are oddly listed as though they are a Somali tribe. You maybe assuming the author means that they are of the "people of sim" and not Somalis in that quote but he tells us earlier and later who "people of sim" seems to refer to:


At that time the imam assembled his forces and called up his army. He tied a white standard to a spear, and entrusted it to the wazir ‘Addoli and the people of Sim rallied to him, from the tribe of the Somalis the Habr Maqdi, and the tribe of Ahmad Girri, and with them two-hundred cavalry and two- thousand infantry like savage lions.

...

Then he split his force into three divisions. The first consisted of the people of Sim, the tribe of Marraihan and Bar Tarri which are the Habr Maqdi, and the people of Jawatir: they were under the command of the wazir ‘Addoli.

Anyway, despite being given the rightwing of the army the Harla don't seem otherwise very important during the war. They are mentioned very few times in a 400 page book and, oddly, possibly aren't even led by one of their own chieftains into battle unlike the Somali right which is led by the Geri Kombe chieftain who is the Imam's brother-in-law. I assumed Muhammad bin Ali was a Harla because "Zarba" is mentioned to be a country in the region of Harla but when the Harla tribes are all listed out Zarba is not mentioned as one and he is never explicitly called a Harla either so can't be sure on that count.

Mirix
05-19-2021, 08:29 PM
What I find confusing about all this is that the Futuh itself explicitly states that the Somalis have cities and mentions one town, Kidad, which drobbah has quoted himself:





So what is all this about pure pastoral nomads with no concept of urbanism? The document itself refutes this.



I apologize cos I didn't give this bit a full reply earlier as I had to go. But I'm confused, walaal. Are you implying that the "Country of the Somalis" mentioned about four times in the book is somewhere far to the east like eastern Somaliland and Puntland? That doesn't make sense to me:






In these mentions of the "Country of the Somalis" the territory is apparently close enough to the border between Muslim and Christian lands for him to just immediately double back from being on the edge and raid it. And at one point he is mentioned to be in the region of the "Hawiya (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawiye)". Then of course the chieftain he is chasing down in the second set of quotes is Marehan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marehan). Do you believe Marehans and Hawiyes lived as far east as Sanaag and beyond back then? Even though all later historical accounts of these clans outside of southern Somalia tells us they lived even further west than Awdal and in the general vicinity of Harar with no signs of them anywhere as far east as Sanaag (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sanaag,+Somalia/@10.2841086,45.1744018,7z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x3d9018aae2ffef25:0xa8f47 9619e7ed150!8m2!3d10.3938218!4d47.7637565), Sool (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sool,+Somalia/@8.8824038,45.2333428,7z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x3d9c8c9ebdb4bb51:0xa4c3e 065a222c2ac!8m2!3d8.7221556!4d47.7637565), Bari (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Bari,+Somalia/@10.1539204,47.9178712,7z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x3da2983597d2bfff:0x772f8c63d3c55 a9e!8m2!3d10.1203847!4d49.6911374) or Nugaal (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Nugal,+Somalia/@8.1592271,46.7372059,7z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x3d9e0d8d7ef699bb:0xd28dd70cec671 843!8m2!3d8.2173496!4d49.2030851)? Then we have the other two tribes mentioned, the Girri (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogaden_(clan)) and the Habr Maqdi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadabuursi). You believe Dirs and Ogadenis lived as far east as Sanaag back then? Also, notice which clan is never mentioned when "The Country of the Somalis" is used in these 4 instances in the book; the Harti (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harti) who are associated in the Futuh with the settlement of Maydh (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maydh) far away to the east in Sanaag. So I really am confused if your argument is that the country of the Somalis is some far eastern, periphery region when it clearly seems very much to the west, near the border with Christian lands and seemingly not far from places like Harar.

Another thing to keep in mind is that there are two main "countries" spoken of in the book. "The Country of the Muslims" and "The Country of the Christians". All the other countries and regions appear mere districts of these two. In fact, at one point the Somali and Harla territories where the same Somali tribes mentioned above live are both referred to as "districts" from which the Imam recruits troops:




There is even a "Muslim district" not named after Somalis that was at one point controlled by Somali tribes:



And judging by the fact that the Muslims provision themselves in Kidad, in the country of the Somalis, then set off for Bali and end up in this place called Jalbi on the way you can assume it is somewhere between Bali, which is this (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Bale,+Ethiopia/@6.7617504,38.1212461,7z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x17c9c06d6e2ccfa5:0xf2aba 1a3172e8a5a!8m2!3d6.7606468!4d40.3088626) far west, and this particular Somali region:



Why provision yourself in a region as far away as Sanaag or even Togdheer (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Togdheer,+Somalia/@9.0629043,43.5671491,7z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x3d86ecc07eefccd9:0x45d96945648af f31!8m2!3d9.4460587!4d45.2993862) to go to Bali? And how did periphery mercenary people come to control a Muslim region seemingly close to Bali? So I don't know where you get this impression that the Country of the Somalis mentioned in the Futuh is some separate entity off to the east and not just a sub-region of the wider Muslim lands the Imam and the Sultans exert their influence over.



I would advise against personalizing discussions, walaal. It is against the rules here. Not to mention the fact that your accusations seem a little ridiculous given that the sources myself and Mirix shared are from non-Somalis like an Italian, a German and an Afar who did things like review manuscripts in Harar and speak to people involved in all this in person. What on earth does any of that have to do with Afweyn? For the non-Somalis reading; drobbah is implying things like Nur ibn Mujahid being Marehan and the Harla being Darods is pre-civil war propaganda made to please the dictator Siyaad Barre (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siad_Barre) (Afweyn = big mouth / a nod at this overbite, rofl) who was of Marehan origins. Unfounded but also pretty offensive considering I have relatives who were murdered on the man's orders.



The Harla are mentioned a total of 8 times in the book (word used 11 times):



In about 4 of those instances the Harla are spoken of like they are a separate entity from the Somali tribes whereas in one where they are mentioned above with the Habar Maqdi and Geri Kombe they are oddly listed as though they are a Somali tribe. You maybe assuming the author means that they are of the "people of sim" and not Somalis in that quote but he tells us earlier and later who "people of sim" seems to refer to:



Anyway, despite being given the rightwing of the army the Harla don't seem otherwise very important during the war. They are mentioned very few times in a 400 page book and, oddly, possibly aren't even led by one of their own chieftains into battle unlike the Somali right which is led by the Geri Kombe chieftain who is the Imam's brother-in-law. I assumed Muhammad bin Ali was a Harla because "Zarba" is mentioned to be a country in the region of Harla but when the Harla tribes are all listed out Zarba is not mentioned as one and he is never explicitly called a Harla either so can't be sure on that count.

Arab Faqih doesn't specify where the Bliad al-Soomaal is . It is impossible to locate where this is and people who analyzed in Futah have come to understand this. And his usage of bilad is vague, and he uses it different ways. The "Futuh al-Habasa" : the writing of history, war and society in the "Bar Sa'ad ad-din" (Ethiopia, 16th century) (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/278827542_The_Futuh_al-Habasa_the_writing_of_history_war_and_society_in_t he_Bar_Sa%27ad_ad-din_Ethiopia_16th_century)



From the text of ‘Arab Faqīh, the space inhabited by the Somali seems to be
separate from Bar Sa’ad ad-dīn. It is impossible to locate it. On the one hand, the term (bilād - د t ب ( is used in a sentence246 to designate both the "country of the Muslims" (المسلمين د t ب, (that of the Ḥabaša or infidels (الحبشة د t ب or الكفرة د t ب (and that of the Somali / Ṣūmal
(الصومل د t ب. (This could distinguish three different and equivalent entities. However, commonly translated as "country", the term bilād is extremely vague in the Arabic language, and can designate territorial entities of very variable dimensions.


However, the Somalis are no less Muslim. They actively participated in the imām's first expeditions, representing in some battles almost half the strength of the Muslim army248. However, they are not part of the Muslim bilād, which, in the pen of ‘Arab Faqīh, is a synonym of Bar Sa'ad ad-dīn. The fact that despite their religion, ‘Arab Faqīh does not integrate Somali territory into Bar Sa’ad ad-dīn, is explained by the fact that the Somali are represented as a set of“ nomadic tribes ”-. They therefore lead a different way of life from that of the inhabitants of Bar Sa'ad ad-dīn, urban and sedentary, practicing agriculture and animal husbandry and residing in cities such as Harar or Dakar. On the other hand, Somali bilād is not localizable. Indeed, it is written that the imām pursues Somali in their territory up to a day's distance from the sea252. Moreover, in an article correcting some reading errors by René Basset in his edition of the Arabic text of Futūḥ, Carlo Conti Rossini proposed to read fafan instead of qrn 253 for the name of the "considerable river254" crossed by the imām during of the pursuit of the king in Kidād. The Fāfān is today a river which originates in the west of Harar and descends towards the south, in crossing the Ogaden. If this identification can be correct, it hardly allows to locate the Kidād. Finally, the short texts published by Enrico Cerulli about the Awsa sultanate also locate the Somali populations near the port of Zayla'255. It remains impossible to be more precise in the location of bilād al-Ṣūmāl. Sources prior to the 16th century do not tell us either.

It's because what Arab Faqih means by Bilad Bar'Sa'adin is the urban cities and those who live outside or roaming around it are usually Bedouins. The way that ''Soomaal'' appears in texts is like they have an omniprescence like they are everywhere all over the place at all times. At the same time their discriptions are ambigous and at times contradictive.

Some writers including Drobbah that don't understand that ''Soomaal'' during the 16th century was just a loose occupational term that was more akin to bedouin. It didn't denote an ethnicity. This is how Arab Faqih employs the term itself in his text and thats what the etymology of the term means as well.

Even to this day Hararis for example call Somalis collectively by occupational identity like Tumur (books.google.com/books?id=GWjxR61xAe0C&pg=PA154&dq=Tumur+hararis+somali&hl=no&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjs-pD7lNbwAhWt_CoKHYvUBAwQ6AEwAXoECAEQAg#v=onepage&q=Tumur%20hararis%20somali&f=false)(Tumaal). Instead of Soomaal. They picked that up from Somalis. Because most Somalis in Harar region were Blacksmiths, Crafts people and masons.

As i have shown you when Richard Burton visited Harar in the 1800s in is First footsteps in East Africa : or, An exploration of Harar (https://archive.org/details/firstfootstepsin01burtuoft) he saw that thousands of Somalis living in the city were mainly crafts people and blacksmiths:


Burton’s description of the population of the city of Harar shows there were 2500 Somalis engaged in different
activities (Burton, R., 1956). The spatial organization of the city and the quarters also has some ethnic
stratification. Accordingly, the Somalis were predominantly found in the Suqtat Bari, engaged in occupations such as handicraft, smithery and leatherwork.

Interestingly enough he also noted there were 3000 undindentified seasonal bedouins romoaning in and out of Harar , were most likely Somali pastoralists.

In Berbera for example where he tried to suggest there were foreigners, there is an ancient graveyard called Xabaalo Tumaalood (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10437-015-9184-9#Sec11) (The cemetery of the Blacksmiths) and there is a list of names of Somalis buried there kept by the locals.


That they once belonged to this region is signified in the use of the name 'Xabaalo Tumaalood' (the 'Cemetery of Blacksmiths') to mark an archaeological cemetery site on the Berbera Road

In this period somalis were widely divided into occupations like Bajimaal (Potter), Biyomaal(Water cultivator) probably responsible for transportation of water or water resource management, Tumaal(Black Smiths), Qudaal/Qotto(farmer), Dabaato etc. Except for Biyomaal, to this day Bajimaal, Tumaal and Soomaal stay more or less true to their very names.

Now its widely accepted by many historians that Somalis were economically varied people Encyclopedia of African History 3-Volume Set (books.google.com/books?id=umyHqvAErOAC&pg=PA1403&dq=Somalis+characterized+economically+varied+peopl e&hl=no&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjhv4Le8tXwAhUtiYsKHYhEAgsQ6AEwAHoECAAQA g#v=onepage&q=Somalis%20characterized%20economically%20varied% 20people&f=false)


Thus, the same Somalis who had been characterized as mostly nomads had always practiced varied economic activities, depending on the layout of the land. On the coast, they were traders, seafarers, and entrepreneurs.... in the interior regions , they practiced animal husbandry and agriculture where conditions permitted it.

The name Soomaal however only evolved into an ethnic name post 16th century collapse (https://arcadia.sba.uniroma3.it/bitstream/2307/1026/5/34_M.%20A.%20RIRASH%20-%20Effects%20of%20sixteenth%20century%20upheavals% 20on%20the%20history%20of%20the%20horn.pdf) and when there was a large scale re-nomadization and de-urbanization following the collapse of the states and the Oromo invasion. Consquently a shift from agricultural surplus that characterized both Awdal's economy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adal_Sultanate#Economy) and Ajuuran's Economy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajuran_Sultanate#Nomadic_citizens_and_farming_comm unities) Kingdoms into one of substinence . I also believe Oromo expansions (https://www.cairn-int.info/article-E_LHOM_167_0235--generational-dynamics-and-the-oromo.htm?contenu=resume) and them conquering/destroying Bali & Dawaro disturbed the interior trade routes in the south which was the main factor that also caused Ajuuran to collapse, possibly loss of revenue made the rulers tax heavy.

Then Pastorialism became the pre-dominant mode of life and all other modes of life was marginalized as a consequence of it. Unsafe settlements were abandoned. What emerged was the client-cultivator and bondsmen type relationships. If people try to intepret Soomaal as an ethnicity from Futuh all they are met with is confusions and contradictions & ambiquity.

Harla themselves were more like Raxanweyn (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rahanweyn) clans in the South in the way that they occupied deep fertile Western regions in Hawash rivers and were predominately sedentary agro-pastoral farmers in larger numbers. That is what differentiated them. But some other minor Somali clans were the same in that region which is why when they are mentioned it's without the term Soomaal but we can easily identify them as Somali today. But they were a Darood confederation and they only claim descent from the Darood Ogaden ancestors according to traditions and historical manuscripts.

Harar was not the border of the Somali occupied region, Harar was the center at the time. For example, Harti, Marreehaan, and Hawiye, who has been told may have come from other regions, this was not the case. Arab-Faqih states that they lived near Harar, where they always lived. Other tribes were settled in the same area and further west.

Also Western regions and Berbera weren't the only settlements , there are ruins in the East in the interior of Bari and Nugall valley. Like the big city of Badda that was mentioned by medieval historians like Al-Idris and Ibn Said that was recently discovered around Lake Cuun: Understanding_the_Drivers_of_Drought_in_Somalia (https://media.africaportal.org/documents/Understanding_the_Drivers_of_Drought_in_Somalia.pd f)


Figure 10: Lake Cuun , 50 km NE of Garowe, 4 km long and 60 m wide, is one of the few remaining lakes and springs in
Nugaal valley. We recently found here ruins of sizeable medieval city which is apparently “Badda” of Al-Idriisi (1154)
and Ibn Said (1260s). Obviously the lost city of Badda, which means ‘the sea’, was named after the lake which was far
greater than today’s one, May 31st, 2016



Funny thing is locals still know the place as "Badda". They found that the ruins had inscriptions and escavated artifacts from them as well.

Many other medieval ruins of a large town in the iskhushuban district (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mudun) in Wadi Valley(Lake) in Bari and one in Goan Bogame (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goan_Bogame). So even in the east there was urban settlements by Somalis.

When the central authority of Awdal collapsed in the ensuing the upheaval that followed it and Oromo invasions and it effected the whole of Somali occupied regions thats why you find bunch of abandoned ruined settlements sparsely over the place. The settlements were always sparesly located in agricultural locations, lakes, springs, rivers or close to wells. It is also obvious that some places were impacted by climate change and permanent springs, rivers and lakes drying up.

From late 16th to early 18th century it was total utter dark age contributed to the dearth of written records on that period with some fragmented chronicles and writtings surviving in Harar and lesser extant in Berbera and Yemen, it was followed by a revival of Islam & development in the late 18th-20th century . In what somali historian like Sheikh Samatar and Abdullahi Baddow dubbed asThe Era of Sheikh's (https://books.google.cd/books?id=w3coDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA245&dq=The+Era+of+Sheikh%27s+somali&hl=no&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj60uDdyNbwAhXDlIsKHbX1BUwQ6AEwAXoECAYQA g#v=onepage&q=The%20Era%20of%20Sheikh's%20somali&f=false) and in this period also saw a revival of literature and scholarship (https://www.jstor.org/stable/25473356?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents)

Various scholars and important Sufi reformers emerged like Sheikh Madar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheikh_Madar), Uways Al-Barawi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uways_al-Barawi), Al-Zayla. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Zaylaʽi) etc many many more on page 50 of this study The Islamic Movement in Somalia: A Study of the Islah Movement (https://central.bac-lac.gc.ca/.item?id=TC-QMM-103487&op=pdf&app=Library&oclc_number=742342437) Badoow gives a historical breakdown of all of them and all the settlements and education centers and systems they established:

He sums it up as:


“...The emergence of organized Sufism allowed these religious men to exercise autocratic powers unknown to secular men in the fragmented politics of clan organization.”

Moreover, most of the Islamic education centers were located in settlements in agricultural areas and around water wells, and many of these were later transformed into villages, towns, and cities. In this way, Sufi orders transformed pastoral society into settled communities engaged in agriculture and/or trade.

Mirix
05-19-2021, 09:37 PM
The Hamite hypothesis (https://academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Hamitic) is a colonial narrative about superior mixed White/Black Europeans invading pastorals from the North outside of Africa that overran dumb primitive agricultural Negroids . Something that has been discredited and rejected by modern scholars as pseudo history and science. That was used to help and justify colonialist agendas. Nomad characterization of Somalis and baseless theories of Arab migrations & mixture/influences has it's roots & origins in that hypothesis.

Likewise I'M lewis and some of Enrico Cerruli's writings are heavily influenced by this Hamitic Myth something several writers have criticized him for (https://www.jstor.org/stable/43660151) including Herbert Lewis (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228022146_HISTORICAL_PROBLEMS_IN_ETHIOPIA_AND_THE_ HORN_OF_AFRICA), even after this hypothesis was rejected he continued use it, didn't even bother to defend why. Most historians and linguists have discredited the "The Somali Conquest of the Horn of Africa (https://www.jstor.org/stable/180241?seq=1) ", based on earlier sources and historical linguistics. Like Herbert Lewis (https://www.jstor.org/stable/179457?seq=1) , Turton (https://www.jstor.org/stable/180495?seq=1), Fleming (https://www.jstor.org/stable/41299528), Heine (https://arcadia.sba.uniroma3.it/bitstream/2307/858/1/The%20Sam%20Languages.pdf) etc. Nobody believes anymore that Somalis aborbed people and or invaded from the north (https://books.google.com/books?id=GWjxR61xAe0C&pg=PA135&dq=traditional+view+of+Galla+no+longer+valid+cambr idge&hl=no&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjspZefvtbwAhXllIsKHR7dBkMQ6AEwAHoECAEQA g#v=onepage&q=traditional%20view%20of%20Galla%20no%20longer%20 valid%20cambridge&f=false) in the last centuries or so to push out Oromos. It's an outdated view. There is no way to prove it and no evidence to back it because Somalis were already spread out across a wide expansive territory and has not only sources but the various dialects/langauges, place names to show for it prior to the Oromo expansions in the 16th century, for thousands of years even, furthermore there is no record of Oromo living anywhere in the horn prior to their 16th century migrations and Kitab Al Zunuj (https://www.academia.edu/35534543/The_Shungwaya_Myth_New_Evidence_pdf) has been discredited as a fabrication written by an Arabized Swahili by the name of Fathili Bin Omari who was a court judge in the 19th century British protectorate with deliberate falsifications that were intended to invalidate established traditions and justify child bride slavery against colonial interruptions and it contradicts various early sources. No other evidences wether archeologically, linguistically, genetically or history wise supports it.

Also the whole Galla myth of Origin (https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/19397803/the-galla-myth-on-somali-history-origin-and-impact-wardheernews) was not even based on Somali oral traditions at all. They misinterpreted the word Gaal(Camel) or Gaalo(Infidel) with Galla(Oromo). And when I'M Lewis investigated the so called ''Galla'' graves in Western Somaliland he found that they contained recent Somali remains.

The manuscript about Gadabursi clan history (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadabuursi#Medieval_Age) written by Adal historians and about their ancestor Imam ‘Ali Si’id (Samaron) fighting as the only leader of the Western Flank in the army of Sultan of Awfat, Sa'd ad-Din in the 15th century , even though the document was clearly talking about how were fighting against Abyssinian Christian imperialists and Infidels(Non-Muslims). I'M Lewis somehow twisted it to make it seem like they were fighting Oromo(Galla) and this was evidence of supposed Somali expansions. Even though this war is also recorded by Al-Maqrizi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Maqrizi) and no mentions of Galla is given, its all about fighting Abysinnia.

The Oromo themselves were an ever expading people this well recorded in both in the Awdal historic medieval documents published by Paulitschke and Enrico Cerruli. Tarikh Al-Mujahideen (History of Mujahids) and Tarikh Al-Mulik(History of Kings). Besides Bahreys 1593 work ''History of Gallas (http://www.aa.tufs.ac.jp/~ishikawa/_userdata/NES16.pdf)" who was an eyewitness to their expansions and various portugese documents.

From their homeland of Boran they reached as far as the coast of Eritrea and Zeila was plundering people and settlements. Like Mos stated. But only Ugas 'Ali Makahil in year 1575 manage to drive them away from Awdal and Zeila and Karanle was strong enough to keep them off between Jigjiga and Harar. South Showa, Harar surounding regions, Hobaad etc fell to the Oromos . At one point they managed to penetrate the Wall of Harrar itself in year 1577 and this was recorded in Tarikh Al Mujahideen (https://books.google.com/books?hl=no&id=_3gMAQAAMAAJ&dq=Uthman+Habashi+harar+oromo&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=Uthman+Habashi+). Somali peasant farmers(Qotto) in Hararghe were assimilate by Afran Qollo confederation of Oromo and you can see this in their fluid Oromo-Somali identity and the breakdown of their clans which contain several dir, darood and hawiye clan lineages.

If some believe that Somalis came from Sanaag in the east, then how does one explain them being recorded far west (Dir) and far south(Hawiye) in early sources. And then as far as SouthEast as Bali which was founded by Hawiye migrants from Merka accompanying Sheikh Hussein in the 12th century converted the local Jidda clan and Gorgeda. Both groups have a long history there. The name Bali means lake in the Somali language and is a sacred man made lake (https://books.google.co.id/books?id=J6nODwAAQBAJ&pg=PA36&dq=Bali+man+made+lake+divine+fertility&hl=no&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwipt7De-9XwAhXZZCsKHe-fCWIQ6AEwAHoECAYQAg#v=onepage&q=Bali%20man%20made%20lake%20divine%20fertility&f=false). The same Somali clans mentioned in the Western Regions still live in the same general area, there hasn't been any populations change or major movements at all since their recordings.

Also foreign writers & researchers working in different capacities, time frames, seperately are not Darood revisionists and employed by Siad Barre. Medieval documents written down centuries ago published by foreign academics are not Kacaan revisionism. Ethnic Somalis being genetically homogenous across a diverse geographic locations (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-62645-0#Sec8), and related to eachother and speak dialects of the same language and regard themselves as coming from the same descent traditionally, is also not Kacaan revisionism by Siad Barre or about myth of Homogeneity.

Moderator
05-20-2021, 03:25 PM
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lavrok
05-21-2021, 01:21 PM
Everything i posted in reply to you is backed by medieval documents and manuscripts. The fact that Harla is Darood is not even Darood revisionism either it is literally a field mission report in to Awsa IslHornAfr 6th Field Mission Report
(http://www.islhornafr.eu/ReportAwsa2017.pdf)


I've just had a quick look at this document, and its conclusion is actually the opposite of what you are claiming. Harla is described as a grouping that 1) considers itself to be Afar, 2) speak Afar language and 3) have possibly adopted a Somali genealogy as late as 16th century:


Among the texts collected by the Dardortì branch, a new historical source has also been retrieved during
the field mission29. It refers to the genealogy of the family and to their migration to Awsa, their territorial
expansion in search of grazing and to the war arisen against the Awsa people. The text confirms that they
dried the lake which in the time of their arrival occupied the region of Awsa, to farm30
. The lineage from
the Ḥaralla tribe is well attested in this text: the name of the tribe is given in the two variants Ḥarallā and
Ḥarla that in the text are reported by a certain Yūsuf, collector of the mosque of Šayḫ Ādam which is
situated at the border of Yemen, on the seaport of Moḫā. The eponymous founder of the clan, Ḥarallā, is
said to have three brothers: all their children scattered between Awsa, Harar, and Berbera. Going back to
the ancestors of the clan, a forefather of Ḥarallā, Dārūt, eponymous founder of the famous Somali tribe of
the Darood, is said to be from Mecca in the text, and then to have moved to Zaylaʻ. His father was the
well known Ismāʻīl b. Ibrāhīm al-Ǧabartī, from Zabīd, whose ancestors are believed to descend directly
from the Banū Hašim and the Qurayš.

The Kabirto and the Dardortì, descendants of the Ḥarallā, seem to consider themselves ʻAfar and speak
ʻAfar language, so it’s somehow surprising to see in their genealogy the presence of the ancestor of one of
the major Somali clan. In the Chronicle of ʻAmdä Ṣəyon (14th century) the Ḥarlā are mentioned as an
independent and sedentary population. In the Futūḥ al-Habaša, many names of Ḥarlā’s clans are still
understandable in ʻAfar and the group is always distinguished from the Somali, so it is possible to
suppose that their integration in the Somali lineage is later than the 16th century (date of the redaction of
the Futūḥ).

The fact that Futuh groups all Somalis together irrespective of clans (Habar Magaadle, Geri, Harti..etc) as a distinct group, then goes on to do the same for Harla, Arabs and Malasay, each being distinguished as a unique grouping, is clear indication that Harla were not Somali, let alone Darod Somali.

Mirix
05-21-2021, 02:27 PM
I've just had a quick look at this document, and its conclusion is actually the opposite of what you are claiming. Harla is described as a grouping that 1) considers itself to be Afar, 2) speak Afar language and 3) have possibly adopted a Somali genealogy as late as 16th century:



The fact that Futuh groups all Somalis together irrespective of clans (Habar Magaadle, Geri, Harti..etc) as a distinct group, then goes on to do the same for Harla, Arabs and Malasay, is clear indication that Harla were not Somali, let alone Darod Somali.

Besides the ones assimilated by Oromo during their expansion. Most Harla exist now as section of Issa under political sheegad Harla, who are now a section of the Esa but recognize their Darod affinities. (https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/abs/ruined-towns-of-somaliland/3269BA65D3DB98E1AC17BFBBEED436DE). They still regard their Darood affinities , it is even shown when Ralph Evelyn Drake-Brockman (https://books.google.nl/books?redir_esc=y&hl=no&id=5GhyAAAAMAAJ&dq=the+same+stock+as+the+other+Darod+clans&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=harlah+) collected the genealogy from Harla groups in 1912


I think there can be little doubt that they were the descendants of Harrlah, brother of Harti and Gherri, and son of Kumbi, who was one of the direct descendants of Darod. Thisshows that the Harla were of the same stock as the other Darod tribes, and consequently were Somalis and not Gallas. I have seen several of these old remains myself in both Somaliland and in the Galla countries in Abyssinia;


That historical document they found confirms the tradition amongst Somalis. Just take a look at the genealogy of Harrallah/Harla from that doument Sarah Fani shared (https://i.imgur.com/p2e5BPa.png). They claim Ismail Jabarti, Darod, Kablah Kumad, Kombe , cousins/brothers with Harti, Geri/Girri and Marehan. Those are all recorded as Darood clans in Futuh so it's a nonsense fringe theory to suggest that Somalis assimilated the Darod clan at a later date or incorporated that genealogy. Especially also considering how widely distributed Darood clans are both in east and west.

What it shows is that Afar assimilated Harla groups living in Awash when they migrated in the 18th century and replaced the Adal Imamate of Awsa with their own sultanate (https://www.jstor.org/stable/180638?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents) because the Harla in Issa also don't claim Dir lineage either but Darood Kombe.

The Harla in Issa don't speak the same dialect as the surrounding Somalis. Cerulli published some data on this Harla community's dialect (https://books.google.nl/books?id=X38lxaUjm1MC&pg=PA1034&redir_esc=y), called af Harlaad, which resembled the Somali dialects spoken by the Yibir and Madhiban artisan castes.

It shows how they are a remnants of the actual Harla Somali group and not some group that was assimilated by Somalis. Unlike the ones in Afar or Oromo who show no dialect differences.

Furthermore Futuh also doesn't describe Somalis as a collective at all under the umbrella of "Soomaal" and it doesn't mention Harla independant from the rest either or seperate. Herbert Lewis (books.google.ca/books?id=XpdAzRYruCwC&pg=PA85&dq=Without+somali+name+groups+futuh&hl=no&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjE24GF-drwAhVptIsKHe4LB-cQ6AEwAHoECAMQAg#v=onepage&q=Without%20somali%20name%20groups%20futuh&f=false)


This is further substantiated by the existence of other , later written documents such as Futuh - al Habasha , referring to some particular Somali groups without using the name Somali Form example Yabarre, Bartirre and some other Dir clans.

This confusion is easily explained by the fact in the 16th century Soomaal was an occupational name not an ethnic name, among many others. And also Malasay was not a clan or a tribe either, it was a title worn by a military elite comprimised of people from different clan backgrounds. War leaders, basically Malakhs (books.google.cd/books?hl=no&id=s0Y_AQAAIAAJ&dq=Malaakhs+war+leader&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=Malaakh).

From the Effects of sixteenth century upheavals (https://arcadia.sba.uniroma3.it/bitstream/2307/1026/5/34_M.%20A.%20RIRASH%20-%20Effects%20of%20sixteenth%20century%20upheavals% 20on%20the%20history%20of%20the%20horn.pdf)

"But other fatal problems in the form of famines epidemics and the Oromo (Galla) invasion appeared on the horizon. In the end we have a social pattern very different from what we have before the the sixteetnh century upheavals. 'Since all other modes of life were brought to end, pastorialism became the pre-dominant one. As a result, the name, Somali, which was only an occupational name prior to Jihad, evolved into an ethnic name'"

I explained futher it in a different post with examples:



It's because what Arab Faqih means by Bilad Bar'Sa'adin is the urban cities and those who live outside or roaming around it are usually Bedouins. The way that ''Soomaal'' appears in texts is like they have an omniprescence like they are everywhere all over the place at all times. At the same time their discriptions are ambigous and at times contradictive.

Some writers including Drobbah that don't understand that ''Soomaal'' during the 16th century was just a loose occupational term that was more akin to bedouin. It didn't denote an ethnicity. This is how Arab Faqih employs the term itself in his text and thats what the etymology of the term means as well.

Even to this day Hararis for example call Somalis collectively by occupational identity like Tumur (books.google.com/books?id=GWjxR61xAe0C&pg=PA154&dq=Tumur+hararis+somali&hl=no&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjs-pD7lNbwAhWt_CoKHYvUBAwQ6AEwAXoECAEQAg#v=onepage&q=Tumur%20hararis%20somali&f=false)(Tumaal). Instead of Soomaal. They picked that up from Somalis. Because most Somalis in Harar region were Blacksmiths, Crafts people and masons.

As i have shown you when Richard Burton visited Harar in the 1800s in is First footsteps in East Africa : or, An exploration of Harar (https://archive.org/details/firstfootstepsin01burtuoft) he saw that thousands of Somalis living in the city were mainly crafts people and blacksmiths:



Interestingly enough he also noted there were 3000 undindentified seasonal bedouins romoaning in and out of Harar , were most likely Somali pastoralists.

In Berbera for example where he tried to suggest there were foreigners, there is an ancient graveyard called Xabaalo Tumaalood (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10437-015-9184-9#Sec11) (The cemetery of the Blacksmiths) and there is a list of names of Somalis buried there kept by the locals.



In this period somalis were widely divided into occupations like Bajimaal (Potter), Biyomaal(Water cultivator) probably responsible for transportation of water or water resource management, Tumaal(Black Smiths), Qudaal/Qotto(farmer), Dabaato etc. Except for Biyomaal, to this day Bajimaal, Tumaal and Soomaal stay more or less true to their very names.

Now its widely accepted by many historians that Somalis were economically varied people Encyclopedia of African History 3-Volume Set (books.google.com/books?id=umyHqvAErOAC&pg=PA1403&dq=Somalis+characterized+economically+varied+peopl e&hl=no&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjhv4Le8tXwAhUtiYsKHYhEAgsQ6AEwAHoECAAQA g#v=onepage&q=Somalis%20characterized%20economically%20varied% 20people&f=false)

The name Soomaal however only evolved into an ethnic name post 16th century collapse (https://arcadia.sba.uniroma3.it/bitstream/2307/1026/5/34_M.%20A.%20RIRASH%20-%20Effects%20of%20sixteenth%20century%20upheavals% 20on%20the%20history%20of%20the%20horn.pdf) and when there was a large scale re-nomadization and de-urbanization following the collapse of the states and the Oromo invasion. Consquently a shift from agricultural surplus that characterized both Awdal's economy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adal_Sultanate#Economy) and Ajuuran's Economy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajuran_Sultanate#Nomadic_citizens_and_farming_comm unities) Kingdoms into one of substinence . I also believe Oromo expansions (https://www.cairn-int.info/article-E_LHOM_167_0235--generational-dynamics-and-the-oromo.htm?contenu=resume) and them conquering/destroying Bali & Dawaro disturbed the interior trade routes in the south which was the main factor that also caused Ajuuran to collapse, possibly loss of revenue made the rulers tax heavy.

Then Pastorialism became the pre-dominant mode of life and all other modes of life was marginalized as a consequence of it. Unsafe settlements were abandoned. What emerged was the client-cultivator and bondsmen type relationships. If people try to intepret Soomaal as an ethnicity from Futuh all they are met with is confusions and contradictions & ambiquity.

Harla themselves were more like Raxanweyn (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rahanweyn) clans in the South in the way that they occupied deep fertile Western regions in Hawash rivers and were predominately sedentary agro-pastoral farmers in larger numbers. That is what differentiated them. But some other minor Somali clans were the same in that region which is why when they are mentioned it's without the term Soomaal but we can easily identify them as Somali today. But they were a Darood confederation and they only claim descent from the Darood Ogaden ancestors according to traditions and historical manuscripts.

Harar was not the border of the Somali occupied region, Harar was the center at the time. For example, Harti, Marreehaan, and Hawiye, who has been told may have come from other regions, this was not the case. Arab-Faqih states that they lived near Harar, where they always lived. Other tribes were settled in the same area and further west.

Also Western regions and Berbera weren't the only settlements , there are ruins in the East in the interior of Bari and Nugall valley. Like the big city of Badda that was mentioned by medieval historians like Al-Idris and Ibn Said that was recently discovered around Lake Cuun: Understanding_the_Drivers_of_Drought_in_Somalia (https://media.africaportal.org/documents/Understanding_the_Drivers_of_Drought_in_Somalia.pd f)




Funny thing is locals still know the place as "Badda". They found that the ruins had inscriptions and escavated artifacts from them as well.

Many other medieval ruins of a large town in the iskhushuban district (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mudun) in Wadi Valley(Lake) in Bari and one in Goan Bogame (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goan_Bogame). So even in the east there was urban settlements by Somalis.

When the central authority of Awdal collapsed in the ensuing the upheaval that followed it and Oromo invasions and it effected the whole of Somali occupied regions thats why you find bunch of abandoned ruined settlements sparsely over the place. The settlements were always sparesly located in agricultural locations, lakes, springs, rivers or close to wells. It is also obvious that some places were impacted by climate change and permanent springs, rivers and lakes drying up.

From late 16th to early 18th century it was total utter dark age contributed to the dearth of written records on that period with some fragmented chronicles and writtings surviving in Harar and lesser extant in Berbera and Yemen, it was followed by a revival of Islam & development in the late 18th-20th century . In what somali historian like Sheikh Samatar and Abdullahi Baddow dubbed asThe Era of Sheikh's (https://books.google.cd/books?id=w3coDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA245&dq=The+Era+of+Sheikh%27s+somali&hl=no&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj60uDdyNbwAhXDlIsKHbX1BUwQ6AEwAXoECAYQA g#v=onepage&q=The%20Era%20of%20Sheikh's%20somali&f=false) and in this period also saw a revival of literature and scholarship (https://www.jstor.org/stable/25473356?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents)

Various scholars and important Sufi reformers emerged like Sheikh Madar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheikh_Madar), Uways Al-Barawi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uways_al-Barawi), Al-Zayla. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Zaylaʽi) etc many many more on page 50 of this study The Islamic Movement in Somalia: A Study of the Islah Movement (https://central.bac-lac.gc.ca/.item?id=TC-QMM-103487&op=pdf&app=Library&oclc_number=742342437) Badoow gives a historical breakdown of all of them and all the settlements and education centers and systems they established:

lavrok
05-21-2021, 03:55 PM
That historical document they found confirms the tradition amongst Somalis. Just take a look at the genealogy of Harrallah/Harla from that doument Sarah Fani shared. They claim Ismail Jabarti, Darod, Kablah Kumad, Kombe , cousins/brothers with Harti, Geri/Girri and Marehan. Those are all recorded as Darood clans in Futuh so it's a nonsense fringe theory to suggest that Somalis assimilated the Darod clan at a later date or incorporated that genealogy. Especially also considering how widely distributed Darood clans are both in east and west.


The issue here is that the source you are using is clearly stating this genealogy linking Harla to Darod is a recent addition put together "later than the 16th century".

By definition, this means they are not Darods, but Darod claimants (not unlike to the section claiming Esa you alluded to).



Furthermore Futuh also doesn't describe Somalis as a collective at all under the umbrella of "Soomaal" and it doesn't mention Harla independant from the rest either or seperate. Herbert Lewis


You are mistaken. Futuh clearly distinguishes Somalis in their various clan groups as a unique group, equivalent to Harla e.g.:


"So, after that, the Muslims stood their ground. The tribe of the Somalis said, 'it was the tribe of Harla that gave us away', while the tribe of Harla said, “it was the Somali tribe that gave us away ' The imam split his forces into three divisions: all the Somalis were in one division whose command he entrusted to Mattan; another division was made up of the tribe of Harla whose command he gave to the sultan Muḥammad, son of the imam's maternal aunt; and the other division was made up of the Malasai, a people used to incursions and to a thorough-going jhad..."

There is no mystery if you actually read the text. These groups were distinct, and the evidence shows they were feuding with one another such that the Imam had to divide his army along ethnic lines.

Another example:


"Five-thousand Muslims from the tribes of the Somalis, Harla, Malasai and desert Arabs were killed".

Background information attached to the reported Muslim losses clearly indicate a division along ethnic lines, separating Somalis from Harla, Malasai and Arabs.

We can speculate on the ethnic origins of modern claimants of Harla, be it Esa or Darod, but Futuh Al Habash is incredibly explicit in stating that the term Harla described a non-Somali group at the time of the conquest.

Mirix
05-21-2021, 04:51 PM
The issue here is that the source you are using is clearly stating this genealogy linking Harla to Darod is a recent addition put together "later than the 16th century".

By definition, this means they are not Darods, but Darod claimants (not unlike to the section claiming Esa you alluded to).

It's her own personal opinion, she is suprised that the Harallah geneology text contains narrative of them coming from Darod ogaden ancestor and then it lists certain Awsa rulers. This of course from the text she collected from Yemen. I was commenting on the document itself.

It is clearly not a late addition or anything. How would you prove that?


It's not surprising seein the genealogy being Darood because in Futuh or in the Awdal medieval texts Afar are not mention at all on this part of the horn. This is explored in a different study that asks the question if Harla was Afar.



Were the Ḥarla Afar?

It has often been claimed that the Afar, a nomadic population now residing on a area covering all of the lowlands east of the Ethiopian highlands, from Eritrea to the northern escarpment of the Č̣erč̣er mountain range, and the Rift Valley to Djibouti, were in contact with Bar Sa'ad ad-dīn at the beginning of the 16th century century and were part troops of Imām Aḥmad288. Unfounded, this hypothesis is unlikely. Indeed, no source of the time mentions the presence of the Afar, named "Dankali" in the literature, in this area of ​​the Horn of Africa. If he details however all the population groups present, the Futūḥ al-Ḥabaša does not mention to any
moment the Afar. Because today an Afar group bears the ethnonym of "Haràlla", some historians have thought that the Ḥarla of Futūḥ al-Ḥabaša were Afar289. The link between the medieval Ḥarla and the Haràlla of the contemporary era is, however, not demonstrable. Moreover, the ethnonym Haràlla is a recent reappropriation of a medieval ethnonym290. If the Afar were part of the human landscape of the Bar Sa'ad ad-dīn region, and the more so if they had taken part in the war against the Christian kingdom, they would be named by ‘Arab Faqīh, as is the case with Somali clans. Both endogenous exogenous, the other texts relating this war do not tell us more about the presence of Afar populations in this area.


Finally, another argument appears on reading the brief Arabic texts edited by Enrico Cerulli. These texts relate, during the last years of Bar Sa'ad ad-dīn, the migration of rulers in the Awsa region. However long and complicated it was, their installation does not seem to be against the Afar. The documents documenting this migration of power never mention the Afar, while the Oromo or the Somali are very often cited as an obstacle to the installation of power. Thus, in the sixteenth century, the Afar did not reside in this region but, most likely, in an area further north.


Sources from the early 16th century confirm this.
In 1520, Francisco Álvares mentions the existence of an Afar Muslim "kingdom",
which he designates as "Dandali / Dancali / Dangalli292". This kingdom is located at
north of present-day Afar territory, south of Bahr Nagaš territory. Álvares describes it as
independent of "Adal", and therefore of Bar Sa'ad ad-dīn:

Next [a little] further on comes the kingdom Dangalli, which is a Moorish kingdom.
This kingdom has a seaport which is named Belie; this is behind the gates of the Red Sea,
inside towards Abyssinia; and this kingdom runs on till it meets the kingdom of Adel293
.
If the Afar are outside the human landscape of Bar Sa'ad ad-dīn, the Ḥarla are very much present.


Infact the Awsa text more or less confirms Soomaal groups were living there in Awash at the time. Wish is not surprising because Dir are recorded in far West in the Gadabursi chronicles and Awash is referred to as the Great Dir river acting as a border seperating Muslim and Christian Amhara land (https://books.google.ca/books?hl=no&id=YgIwAQAAIAAJ&dq=pankhurst+conquest&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=dir).


You are mistaken. Futuh clearly distinguishes Somalis in their various clan groups as a unique group, equivalent to Harla e.g.:

Show me where in the text it groups all the different Somali clans mentioned as Soomaal? Some are mentioned without the name.

The name itself is used vaguely used and it is an occupational name like etymology of the name implies.



There is no mystery if you actually read the text. These groups were distinct, and the evidence shows they were feuding with one another such that the Imam had to divide his army along ethnic lines.

Another example:



Background information attached to the reported Muslim losses clearly indicate a division along ethnic lines, separating Somalis from Harla, Malasai and Arabs.

We can speculate on the ethnic origins of modern claimants of Harla, be it Esa or Darod, but Futuh Al Habash is incredibly explicit in stating that the term Harla described a non-Somali group at the time of the conquest.

That is the secondary source written by Richard Pankhurst. The primary text itself does not state anything like that infact Arab Faqih makes it painfully clear what Malasay means as you can see from the Arabic text next to it: The "Futuh al-Habasa" : the writing of history, war and society in the "Bar Sa'ad ad-din" (Ethiopia, 16th century) (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/278827542_The_Futuh_al-Habasa_the_writing_of_history_war_and_society_in_t he_Bar_Sa%27ad_ad-din_Ethiopia_16th_century)


Malasāy appear as the basic unit of the imām’s army. Unlike the other groups that make up this army, the Malasāy were a social group and not a tribe or clan. Unlike the Balaw, Somali or Ḥarla, a man is not born Malasāy. He obtained this title after demonstrating his military capabilities.
‘Arab Faqīh gives a relatively precise definition of what he means by “malasāy”:
203 وفرقة الملساي اھل الغزو والجھاد ا c صلي المعتمد عليھم في القتال والصناديد ا c بطال فيھم ا c مام
.
And the troop of the Malasāy, who are people of raids and ğihād, worthy men
of trust, which could be relied upon during combat, of army chiefs who did not
only do not flee the battlefield but protect the retreat of his own204
(بطال c ا والصناديد. (The imām was with them.

The imām himself is therefore part of the Malasāy group.


In addition to their warrior qualities, these Malasāy are not part of the same population group. Some are awr'ay, descendants of Balaw , others are "people of Sīm 210", still others are leaders of a Somali group or responsible for indefinite troops. Thus, according to the In Futūḥ al-Ḥabaša, the Malasāy did not represent a population group, but a elite composite warrior

He also gives out list of individuals who he regards as Malasay and applies it to various people of different clan backgrounds and even in the text he praises Girri Matan branding him in the same way


Ḥirabū represents the figure of the local Muslim leader in opposition to the imām, on the other hand, Matān, the leader of the Ǧirī, represents the staunch ally. First of all, he's the brother-in-law of the imām; his wife, Fardūsah, is the sister of Amad b. Ibrāhīm. A link
So a special unites the two men. ‘Arab Faqīh values ​​the figure of Matān and specifies that he "was one of the bravest horsemen" and "the chief of the Somali, the bravest, the most valiant of them276 ". From the start of the internal ğihād between Sultan Abū Bakr and the imām, Matān and the Ǧirīs are allied with Aḥmad and will remain faithful to him throughout the
conquest. Matān's loyalty is rewarded since the imām gives him a position
important in the military.

The way in which Malasay is used, it's obvious its the title Malakh(War Leader) like some historians have come to the conclusion with.

lavrok
05-21-2021, 05:53 PM
It's her own personal opinion...


Exactly. You were trying to use the source to claim Harla is of Darod origins when the author is explicitly stating that this is not the case, and that this connection was adopted recently.


Show me where in the text it groups all the different Somali clans mentioned as Soomaal? Some are mentioned without the name.

You are moving the goal post, the text is as clear as can be, there were various distinct groupings, Somali being one of them, I have included direct quotes above.


The name itself is used vaguely used and it is an occupational name like etymology of the name implies.


Arab Faqih did not use the name Somali as an "occupational name", that is a preposterous claim for which you have no evidence.

This is the text:

"Five-thousand Muslims from the tribes of the Somalis, Harla, Malasai and desert Arabs were killed".

Is Arab also an "occupational name"?

Come on.

Mirix
05-21-2021, 06:34 PM
Exactly. You were trying to use the source to claim Harla is of Darod origins when the author is explicitly stating that this is not the case, and that this connection was adopted recently.

Her opinion is conjecture. She has no proof. What was relevant is the text itself. It's an historical document that proves the Darood origins of Harla.


You are moving the goalpost, the text is as clear as can be, there were various distinct groupings, Somali was one of them, I have included direct quotes above.


So because you can't prove what you are trying to say i am moving the goal post? Nice! No your moving the goal post.


This is the text:

"Five-thousand Muslims from the tribes of the Somalis, Harla, Malasai and desert Arabs were killed".

Not from the primary source itself. You can read the analysis of Futuh itself The "Futuh al-Habasa" : the writing of history, war and society in the "Bar Sa'ad ad-din" (Ethiopia, 16th century) (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/278827542_The_Futuh_al-Habasa_the_writing_of_history_war_and_society_in_t he_Bar_Sa%27ad_ad-din_Ethiopia_16th_century)

About the Malasay being a military title worn by different people is pretty much a conclusion many other scholars studying the texts come to. It's not a clan or a tribe.


]Is Arab also an "occupational name"?

Come on.

Actually interesting that you ask that, Arab in the earliest usage of Islamic history was a term for bedouins NOMADIC AND SEDENTARY LIFE IN THE TIME OF PROPHET MUHAMMAD (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/348074036_NOMADIC_AND_SEDENTARY_LIFE_IN_THE_TIME_O F_PROPHET_MUHAMMAD)

y. These state of affairs more or less reinforce the description given by Tarif Khalidi about the nature of the cities in the Hejaz at that time which still had strong connection with the nomads of the desert. 26

The Bedouin is usually called with the word aꜥrab, a word that indicates the origin of the Arab community in the region. ꜥUmar ibn al-Khattāb once said that the Bedouins are “the origin of the Arabs and the material of Islam (aṣl al-ꜥarab wa māddah al-Islām).”27 This is generally in line with Ibn Khaldūn’s explanation about the Bedouin’s existence as being earlier to sedentary people. 28 Some orientalists go further to suggest that the word ꜥArab has a connection with the Hebrew word abhar which means to move or to pass,29 thus pointing to the primordial characteristic of this people.
The association between the Arab people in ancient time with their camels is proverbial. The camels are highly important especially for the Arab Bedouins, to the extent that they used to call themselves as ahl al-baꜥīr or the people of the camel. Almost every parts of this animal, even its dung and urine, are beneficial to them. The camel, to borrow Hitti’s words, is “the Bedouin’s constant companion, his alter ego, his foster
parent”.32


Muslims of Medina referred to the nomadic tribes of the deserts as the A'raab, and considered themselves sedentary, but were aware of their close racial bonds.


The Bedouins are mentioned several times in the Qur’ān, usually with the word aꜥrab, and more often not with positive judgment. In the other verses, this time related to the Ḥudaybiyyah incident, the bedouins are rebuked by the Scripture. They did not follow the Prophet (PBUH) for ꜥumrah to Makkah
and made excuses, while secretly they were prejudiced against the Prophet and the believers (Al-Fatḥ [48]: 11-12). There is a difference of opinion among the commentators of the Qur’ān about who the Bedouins referred to in these verses. 58 One narration mentions, as stated by Ibn ꜥAbbās and Mujāhid,
that they were the Bedouins around Madīnah from the tribes of Ghifār, Aslam, Muzaynah, Juhaynah, Ashjaꜥ, and al-Dīl. These verses – as well as the previous verses in Surah al-Ḥujurāt – characterise certain groups of Bedouins as hypocrites, because they display something that is contrary to what is in
their hearts. 5

And in many early sources, quran and hadith the sedentary muslims distinguished themselves from Arab(bedouin) in the deserts, the term was later replaced with badawi. Even though the sedentary Muslims racially/ethnically the same and speak the same language as the bedouins in Arab/Muslim literature they spoke about them in deragatory ways and as different from themselves, but they also in other exceptions admired them for their pure spoken Arabic, their simple way of life and purity in heart etc. But Sedentary and Nomadic people was more less opposites halfs of eachother.

Similarly the way Soomaal was used in that time is not different in that sense was just name for a mode of life or an occupational name for pastorals that evolved into an ethnic name. Much like Muruqmaal, Dhismaal we use to refer to work like activitiesy toda and the occupational names Tumaal, Bajimaal, Qudaal/Qotto ,Dhabato.etc. As related in this text Effects of the 16th century upheaval (https://arcadia.sba.uniroma3.it/bitstream/2307/1026/5/34_M.%20A.%20RIRASH%20-%20Effects%20of%20sixteenth%20century%20upheavals% 20on%20the%20history%20of%20the%20horn.pdf)

It's evolution into an ethnic name marked the collapse of the state and widespread de-urbanization and nomadization , but incases with survival of the city of Harar, the Hararis until late still referred to Somalis by an occupational Tumur(Tumaal) whom referred to themselves by it and not by Soomaal. The evolution of words and name usage is something called Semantic Change (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_change) and this is common throughout history.

lavrok
05-21-2021, 07:01 PM
Her opinion is conjecture. She has no proof. What was relevant is the text itself. It's an historical document that proves the Darood origins of Harla.


Using sources selectively has no place in academic discourse. If you present a source claiming it supports a specific viewpoint, while the author of the source you are quoting is actually presenting a view that opposes what you claim, then what you are engaging in is essentially cherry-picking of sources, such action invalidates your point and can be seen as intellectually dishonest.


So because you can't prove what you are trying to say i am moving the goal post? Nice! No your moving the goal post.


The text clearly describe Somali as a distinct group listed next to Harla, Malasay and Arabs as equivalents, I have quoted multiple examples above. But you demand a 16th century text's description of Somali to be tailored to your specific 2021 usage of the term "Soomaal", if that is not moving the goal post I dont know what is.

I think I have made my point clear. The text of Futuh in no way links Harla and Somalis, in fact it goes out of its way to make it clear Harla is a distinct grouping separate from Arabs and Somalis. Arguing for the sake of arguing s a fool's errand. I am not going to sit and argue with you about the usage of the term "Arab" colloquially being a reference to an occupational name.

Have a nice day!

Mirix
05-21-2021, 07:13 PM
Using sources selectively has no place in academic discourse. If you present a source claiming it supports a specific viewpoint, while the author of the source you are quoting is actually presenting a view that opposes what you claim, then what you are engaging in is essentially cherry-picking of sources, such action invalidates your point and can be seen as intellectually dishonest.

Cherry picking? I adressed her opinion along with text itself on the same page . And i stated my disagreement with it. But her own conjecture is seperate from the document in question. That historical document actually supports Harlas Darood origins.


The text clearly describe Somali as a distinct group listed next to Harla, Malasay and Arabs as equivalents, I have quoted multiple examples above. But you demand a 16th century text's description of Somali to be tailored to your specific 2021 usage of the term "Soomaal", if that is not moving the goal post I dont know what is.

I think I have made my point clear. The text of Futuh in no way links Harla and Somalis, in fact it goes out of its way to make it clear Harla is a distinct grouping separate from Arabs and Somalis. Arguing for the sake of arguing s a fool's errand. Have a nice day!

It's not from the text itself. It's written by Richard Pankhurst is a secondary source. Whereas qouted for you a direct section of Arab Faqih words in Arabic describing what Malasay means, its a military title not tribe or a clan.


‘Arab Faqīh gives a relatively precise definition of what he means by “malasāy”:
203 وفرقة الملساي اھل الغزو والجھاد ا c صلي المعتمد عليھم في القتال والصناديد ا c بطال فيھم ا c مام
.
And the troop of the Malasāy, who are people of raids and ğihād, worthy men
of trust, which could be relied upon during combat, of army chiefs who did not
only do not flee the battlefield but protect the retreat of his own204
(بطال c ا والصناديد. (The imām was with them.


Aren't you just repeating yourself and not listening. How could Soomaal be distinct from anyone when it was an occupational name , is used ambigously and it's not used in the text to refer Somali groups collectively when some clans are not mentioned with that name . Follow along

Awale
05-21-2021, 10:25 PM
In a different thread he tried to suggest that Bantus influenced farming in the south but there is no linguistic or cultural evidence for this at all. Farming goes back to proto-Somali era, it was introduced 6000 years ago.

I would say 6,000 years is an exaggeration, walaal. Our Neolithic ancestors who came into the Horn sometime before 3000 BCE were seemingly grain-collecting nomadic pastoralists who kept cattle, goats, sheep, donkeys and shepherd/hunting dogs. Not farmers. Agriculture arose in Ethiopia after this migration into the Horn from what I gather. This same agriculture did then spread to early (Proto) Somalis by the looks of it. Many people don't realize that many of the historically staple crops of the south, like Durra, are from Ethiopia (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1prtnaQeNKSsmM3Cmqj6SfvNVullHcB9C/view?usp=sharing). Even little things like Canjeero (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Injera) and the word some southerners apparently use for chicken ("Doro") which is the same word in Amharic raises eyebrows. The south/Koonfur was very influenced by Ethiopia and Proto-Maxaa/Maay people were probably in part descended from central to eastern Highland farmers which might even partly explain the ubiquitous nature of ancient Yemeni ancestry among Somalis.


The text clearly describe Somali as a distinct group listed next to Harla, Malasay and Arabs as equivalents, I have quoted multiple examples above. But you demand a 16th century text's description of Somali to be tailored to your specific 2021 usage of the term "Soomaal", if that is not moving the goal post I dont know what is.

Not really going to wade in on the rest of what you and Mirix are discussing but I just wanted to add that the Malasay are not a tribe/group. They are referred to as such in that one instance but in other instances he makes it clear they are an elite fighting troop made up of the best of the Muslims as a whole. One even has a blatantly Somali name (Absama Nur) whilst another is of the "people of sim" who are seemingly Somali tribes like the Habar Maqdi. The rest are probably an assortment of Arabs, Harlas and so on. There is also one weird instance where the Futuh lists the Harla seemingly as among the Somali tribes:


Thereupon the emir Husain bin Abu Bakr al-Gaturl arose and said to the imam Ahmad, ‘This will never happen. If they want war. then we will assemble our armies from the people of Sim and from the Somali tribes: the tribe of Girri, the tribe of Habr Maqdi, the tribe of Harla, for our armies have been dispersed. How can we do as they wish? We shall not surrender the country to them.

Compare that to when we found out that "Hawiya" are a Somali tribe:


At this the companions of the imam screamed out, saying, ‘The infidels have tricked us; they are after the livestock,’ whereupon the imam split his forces into two divisions: one he entrusted to Garad Ahmusa, composed of the Somali spearmen of the Marraihan, the Gorgorah and the Hawiya; around one-thousand of them from among the most famous spearmen. And from the soldiers bearing shields, the same number. And about forty knights, amongst whose leaders were al-Kusem Nur, Garad Nasr, Del Sagad the knight of Sim, Garad Ahmadus, son of the emir Mahfuz, Farasaham Satut, and about forty other knights like them.

Main difference is that he mentions the people of sim which you could assume is what he means the Harla are until:


At that time the imam assembled his forccs and called up his army. He tied a white standard to a spear, and entrusted it to the wazir ‘Addoli and the people of Sim rallied to him, from the tribe of the Somalis the Habr Maqdi, and the tribe of Ahmad Girri, and with them two-hundred cavalry and two-thousand infantry like savage lions.

...

Then he split his force into three divisions. The first consisted of the people of Sim, the tribe of Marraihan and Bar Tarri which are the Habr Maqdi, and the people of Jawatir: they were under the command of the wazir ‘Addoli.

Odd stuff considering how clearly he separates them from Somalis in other parts of the book. Might have been a slip or the way he worded it, who knows. That is what I suspect personally.


I don't think there was deliberate attempt in Futuh to conceal identites for example it only mentions the clan accompanying that said person and some peoples clans are not mentioned because they were not clan leaders or cheiftains.

I talked to you about this in private when the thread was closed but it's very important that people read the Futuh itself. A lot of the secondary sources on it seem to have been written by people who either read a completely different book or I don't know what. I say this because there are so many odd inaccuracies spread via secondary sources on the book like the claim that the Harla are depicted in it as some sort of highly important group and the group from which the elite spring from when in reality they are mentioned about 8 times in a 400 page book, we pretty much get none of the names of their chieftains except maybe Muhammad bin Ali and at no point is anyone of the top elites referred to as a Harla. Even the claim that Mahfuz was once the governor of Zeila is not in the book. He is never mentioned in relation to Zeila and instead Zeila is mentioned only 8 times and it's ruler is called "Waranjar Abun". Not to mention the fact that secondary sources make you think groups like Hararis, Argobbas and Afars were important in the war when the first two never come up in the book (though the settlement of Harar does as an important center) and the latter come up but only a few times and in the capacity that the Muslims at some points encamp in their region. No Afar tribes are mentioned in the book as far as I've seen nor are any said to be participating in the war. Even the claims in secondary sources that the Somali were not important in the later parts of the war don't seem to hold water. Like this bit quoted about the Somalis deserting- :


[The Somali tribes resolve to desert]

The storyteller may God have mercy upon him, says: The Muslims set out from Jamlt for Ganburah, above Suq Dawaro.411 The people of Suq Dawaro were Muslims whom the patrician of Dawaro ruled and from whom he exacted tribute. When the imam and the Muslims reached Ganburah, the people of Suq Dawaro welcomed them and showered them with honours. Then the imam wrote a letter to the country of the Muslims, to the sultan ‘Umar Din and to his brother Muhammad bin Ibrahim whom he had left with the sultan, announcing the good news of his victory and triumph, The imam and the Muslims stayed on in Ganburah for around seven days.

In the meantime the Somali tribes, since they had taken booty and collected horses, mules, oxen, donkeys, slaves and fabrics, held a meeting by themselves. They said, ‘We have taken vast booty, so now let us go to the imam and urge him to make the way clear for us to return to our country . If he agrees, there is no harm done. If he refuses, then we shall run away to our country, without his permission’. Some of the Malasal people agreed with this. The Somalis said: ‘If we go back, the majority of the Malasal will follow our lead, and that will leave very few with the imam’.

The storyteller, may God have mercy upon him says: Then a certain person went to the imam. He had been among those present at their meeting, and informed the imam what the Somalis had said, and what they intended to do. When the imam heard, he set spies upon them to observe them, and said to the spies: ‘If they do something, see that I am told’.


-if you read further tells you they didn't end up actually deserting. They just planned it, the Imam heard about it and set spies on them at several points in the book it is made clear there are still Somalis fighting in the war. There are six Jihads mentioned in the book and Somalis are mentioned all the way into the fifth and sixth. In later parts of describing the war the Futuh seems to become less concerned with mentioning the Muslim's demographics but also gives no indication that groups like the Somali, Harla and so forth have been replaced and you can assume Somali tribes were still involved as a man whose main fighting division we are told more than once is mainly composed of Somalis, the important Wazir "Addoli", is involved in conflicts until very late into the war when he is killed. Even the claim that the Zarba are Somali or that Mattan was Marehan were from secondary sources I was remembering like this (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vEZV4gNKTyTkOa9jt9TVZo0SxXACXk-E/view?usp=sharing) one since I hadn't read the book in years. Simply astounding how many things these authors get wrong about the book. Some of it seems completely made up.


In these mentions of the "Country of the Somalis" the territory is apparently close enough to the border between Muslim and Christian lands for him to just immediately double back from being on the edge and raid it. And at one point he is mentioned to be in the region of the "Hawiya". Then of course the chieftain he is chasing down in the second set of quotes is Marehan. Do you believe Marehans and Hawiyes lived as far east as Sanaag and beyond back then? Even though all later historical accounts of these clans outside of southern Somalia tells us they lived even further west than Awdal and in the general vicinity of Harar with no signs of them anywhere as far east as Sanaag, Sool, Bari or Nugaal? Then we have the other two tribes mentioned, the Girri and the Habr Maqdi. You believe Dirs and Geri Kombes lived as far east as Sanaag back then? Also, notice which clan is never mentioned when "The Country of the Somalis" is used in these 4 instances in the book; the Harti who are associated in the Futuh with the settlement of Maydh far away to the east in Sanaag. So I really am confused if your argument is that the country of the Somalis is some far eastern, periphery region when it clearly seems very much to the west, near the border with Christian lands and seemingly not far from places like Harar.

One thing I'd like to add is that the clans mentioned in the Futuh strongly support this. From what I could see you have the Gorgorah (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurgura) & Habar Maqdi (Dir), the Geri Kombe, Marehan, Bartire and Harti (Darood) and the Hawiye ("Hawiya"). All but one of these clans (Harti) have been historically known to be the furthest western Somalis who generally lived close to Harar:

https://i.imgur.com/Q43ixFq.png

Even the Marehan used to live in that general vicinity to some extent and are mentioned by Richard Burton during the 1800s. Burton's writings honestly startled me a lot when I first read it cos many of the same clans he mentions living near and within Harar like the Hawiye subclans, the Bartire (Berteri) and so forth are the same ones mentioned in the Futuh. No other Somali clans known to have historically been in regions like Awdal (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Awdal,+Somalia/@9.8772842,43.7509094,8z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x16244a26bab783c3:0x7597da10de1be 2c6!8m2!3d10.6334285!4d43.329466), Marood Jeex (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Woqooyi+Galbeed,+Somalia/@9.8258398,42.3599052,7z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x1627dd12108c33e9:0x1855daa9eb6dc a76!8m2!3d9.542374!4d44.0960311) or Togdheer (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Togdheer,+Somalia/@9.0629043,43.567149,7z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x3d86ecc07eefccd9:0x45d96945648af f31!8m2!3d9.4460587!4d45.2993862) are mentioned in the Futuh. No Samaroon, no Habar Jeclo and no Habar Awal, for example. The only eastern clan mentioned are the Harti who are the only Somalis noted explicitly to be associated with a far away eastern settlement (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maydh) and were probably there as opportunists like the Arabs. The other clans are clearly from around the region the Imam operates in as I pointed out with an earlier post. Even Zeila is mostly mentioned in passing as a source for canon imports. If one reads the text closely they can see most of the Futuh is going on in the interior of the Horn. Just look at some of the groups mentioned like Hadiyas, Gedeos (Gedaya) and regions like Bale (Bali) where lots of campaigning happens:

https://i.imgur.com/ItNZo1U.png

I don't know where anyone would get the impression that much of any of this took place in Somaliland. It's nearly all in Ethiopia. Around Harar and beyond.

lavrok
05-21-2021, 10:30 PM
It's not from the text itself. It's written by Richard Pankhurst is a secondary source. Whereas qouted for you a direct section of Arab Faqih words in Arabic describing what Malasay means, its a military title not tribe or a clan.


You seem to be confused about the text, the quotes I have included above are directly from the Futuh text, not from Richard Pankhurst as you claim:


"So, after that, the Muslims stood their ground. The tribe of the Somalis said, 'it was the tribe of Harla that gave us away', while the tribe of Harla said, “it was the Somali tribe that gave us away ' The imam split his forces into three divisions: all the Somalis were in one division whose command he entrusted to Mattan; another division was made up of the tribe of Harla whose command he gave to the sultan Muḥammad, son of the imam's maternal aunt; and the other division was made up of the Malasai, a people used to incursions and to a thorough-going jhad..."

Arabic:

"فثبت المسلمون، فقالت قبيلة الصومال مايكشفنا الا قبيلة حرل، فقالت قبيلة حرله مايكشفنا الا الصومال، ففرق الامام الجيش ثلاث فرق، فرقة الصومال بأجمعها وأمر عليها متان، وفرقة الحرله وأمر عليها سلطان محمد ابن خالة الامام، وفرقة الملساي اهل الغزو والجهاد الاصلي"


You ought to actually read the text before engaging in discussions about it. The text is explicit in describing the Imam dividing the army into three separate divisions, with one including all Somalis, while the other two divisions comprise of Harla and Malasay exclusively. The reason for that per the book is tensions specifically between Somalis and Harla.


Aren't you just repeating yourself and not listening. How could Soomaal be distinct from anyone when it was an occupational name , is used ambigously and it's not used in the text to refer Somali groups collectively when some clans are not mentioned with that name . Follow along

Futuh never mentions anything about Soomaal being an occupational name, this is your own strawman you are attempting to shoehorn into the discussion. The text provides a general description of ethnic groups relevant to the context of the conquest, being very careful to to distinguish Somali from Tigray, Harla or Arab.

Awale
05-21-2021, 10:36 PM
Futuh never mentions anything about Soomaal being an occupational name, this is your own strawman you are attempting to shoehorn into the discussion. The text provides a general description of ethnic groups relevant to the context of the conquest, being very careful to to distinguish Somali from Tigray, Harla or Arab.

I have to say the bit about Somali not being used as an ethnic term doesn't entirely jibe for me. Is it possible that some Somali tribes are present and not being called such? Perhaps but it seems clear that the Somalis mentioned in the Futuh are being called such in a tribal/ethnic sense. Like I mentioned earlier it is stated that they have cities and a town in their region called Kidad and one clan, the Harti, are named as the people of Maydh, a settlement. How does this work with "Somali" meaning "Bedouin/nomad"? Not to mention that some of the clans named in the Futuh like the Geri Kombe were historically known to have settled farmers among them.

lavrok
05-21-2021, 11:12 PM
One last quote to end the discussion on Harla:



"and put under their command all the tribes of the Harla, as for instance the tribe of Zaman Bara, the tribe of Barzara with their chieftain, the tribe of Yaqula , and the tribe of Jasar, the tribe of Arab Tka, and the tribe of Al-Qa: all of these belonged to the Harla . The imam commanded them to hold the Muslims' right.

Then he assembled the Somali tribes: the tribe of Girri, the tribe of Marraiḥan, the tribe of Yibberi, the tribe of the Harti, people of Mait, the tribe of Jaran, the tribe of Mazzar, the tribe of Barsūb: all of these were Somalis and they were ordered by the imām to hold the left."

"وضم لهم سائر قبائل الحرله مثل قبيلة زمري وقبيلة برزه مع سيدهم، وقبيلة يقله وقبيلة جاسار وقبيلة عرب تخا وقبيلة القي كل هؤلاء حرله، وأمرهم الامام ان يكونوا في ميمنة المسلمين.

ثم جمع قبيلة الصومال قبيلة جري وقبيلة مريحان وقبيلة جرجري وقبيلة يبري مع سيدهم احمد جري وقبيلة هرتي اخل ميط وقبيلة جران وقبيلة مزرا وقبيلة برسوب كل هؤلاء من الصومال وأمرم الامام ان يكونوا في الميسرة"

Beyond being careful not to mix Harla and Somali, and present them as distinct groups. The author detailed the individual subclans of each of these groupings as to leave no doubt that Harla and Somali were distinct and separate.

Futuh as a text may leave a lot of questions unanswered, but the Harla issue is one of the points that Arab Faqih takes the time to describe in detail, leaving no room for interpretations.

Mirix
05-21-2021, 11:15 PM
I would say 6,000 years is an exaggeration, walaal. Our Neolithic ancestors who came into the Horn sometime before 3000 BCE were seemingly grain-collecting nomadic pastoralists who kept cattle, goats, sheep, donkeys and shepherd/hunting dogs. Not farmers. Agriculture arose in Ethiopia after this migration into the Horn from what I gather. This same agriculture did then spread to early (Proto) Somalis by the looks of it. Many people don't realize that many of the historically staple crops of the south, like Durra, are from Ethiopia (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1prtnaQeNKSsmM3Cmqj6SfvNVullHcB9C/view?usp=sharing). Even little things like Canjeero (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Injera) and the word some southerners apparently use for chicken ("Doro") which is the same word in Amharic raises eyebrows. The south/Koonfur was very influenced by Ethiopia and Proto-Maxaa/Maay people were probably in part descended from central to eastern Highland farmers which might even partly explain the ubiquitous nature of ancient Yemeni ancestry among Somalis.


Doesn't Ehret say agriculture in cushitic speakers in not only Ethiopia but the general Horn go back to 7000 years ago or more based on lingusitic and archeological evidence and that the grain and grass collections have proto-cushitic or proto-afroasiatic roots On the Antiquity of Agriculture in Ethiopia (https://www.jstor.org/stable/181512?seq=1)


From various kinds of evidence it can now be argued that agriculture in Ethiopia and the Horn was quite ancient, originating as much as 7,000 or more years ago, and that its development owed nothing to South Arabian inspiration.

He also says that 6000- 5000 years ago is when South-Eastern Cushitic speakers diversified and differentiated. It's around this time in Somalis when their the Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor (TMRCA) was estimated to be 4000–5000 years (2,500 BCE) for the haplogroup E-M78 cluster γ in.

From this background, the ancestors of Proto-Somali lived about 6,000 years ago, as an Eastern Cushitic tribe over its own territory. Thus, around 5,000 years ago they have already evolved their nationhood; inherited or adapted to an appreciable stage of economic development in food production: herding goats, sheep, and cows; and farming sorghum(Durra), barely, xiji (incense) for trade and home consumption.

They even got involved in camel domestication an early time of third Millennium BCE, and they were probably familiar with a sort of wheat. Alongside raising crops and livestock, they gained knowledge in metallurgy using probably copper, and possibly bronze through importation, for the trading was also part of their living at that time. However, a portion of the them has preferred to remain in fishing, gathering, and hunting activities.

drobbah
05-21-2021, 11:30 PM
Marood Jeex (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Woqooyi+Galbeed,+Somalia/@9.8258398,42.3599052,7z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x1627dd12108c33e9:0x1855daa9eb6dc a76!8m2!3d9.542374!4d44.0960311) or Togdheer (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Togdheer,+Somalia/@9.0629043,43.567149,7z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x3d86ecc07eefccd9:0x45d96945648af f31!8m2!3d9.4460587!4d45.2993862) are mentioned in the Futuh. No Samaroon, no Habar Jeclo and no Habar Awal, for example. The only eastern clan mentioned are the Harti who are the only Somalis noted explicitly to be associated with a far away eastern settlement (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maydh) and were probably there as opportunists like the Arabs. The other clans are clearly from around the region the Imam operates in as I pointed out with an earlier post. Even Zeila is mostly mentioned in passing as a source for canon imports. If one reads the text closely they can see most of the Futuh is going on in the interior of the Horn. Just look at some of the groups mentioned like Hadiyas, Gedeos (Gedaya) and regions like Bale (Bali) where lots of campaigning happens:

Walaal I don't know where you got the idea that Habar Awal weren't involved when the Egyptian Arabic manuscript that was archived online by the King Saud University (no longer available unfortunately) clearly mentions the Habar Magaadle which comprises of Habar Awal,Garxajis (Habar Yoonis & Ciiidigale),Arap and Ayuub.The english translation doesn't do a good job of differentiating the Habar Magaadle and the Habar Magdi.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EWzm3imWoAIpl5z.png
https://i.imgur.com/kTRCpD7l.jpg

Wa min Qabaa'il As-Soomaal Habar Magaadle Qabiila Habar Magaadle wa qabiila Ahmed Girri

From the tribes of the Somali, the tribe of Habar Magaadle and the tribe of Ahmed Gurrey

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EWz6laiXQAIJ2kO.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EWzd0oTWAAASBM0.png

Awwal Qabiila wasalat ilal Imam Qabiila Habar Magaadle ma3a sayyidihum wa (mag3adihum??) Ahmad Gurey bin Hussein As-Somaali

The first tribe to arrive to the Imam, the Habar Magaadle clan with their leader Ahmed Gurey bin Hussein the Somali

The Futuh also mentions the modern Yabarre clan as a part of the Habar Magaadle
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EWzaw0aWAAAMgr7?format=png&name=small

Ahlu Sim wa gabiila Mare7aan wa gabiila "Yabarre hum Habar Magaadle wa ahlul Jurir

The people of Sim, the tribe of Marexaan, the tribe of Yabarre who are Habar Magaadle and people of Jurir


Perhaps the Yabarre were long lost Habar Magaadle who knows lol but they do neighbour Sacad Muuse (specifically my subclan) in Ethiopia.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/eb/Somali_clan_map_1.jpg/1200px-Somali_clan_map_1.jpg




The Somali Habar Magdi who were accused of banditry and not paying zakat which caused the Imam too eventually conduct an military operation against them devastating their grazing lands was a totally different clan from the Habar Magaadle.I have no clue which modern clan or major clan groupings that would be associated with this tribe in modern SL/Ethiopia
http://i.imgur.com/zCIcCg6.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EWzdJnWXYAE-VZQ.jpg:large

Awale
05-21-2021, 11:40 PM
The Somali Habar Magdi who were accused of banditry and not paying zakat which caused the Imam too eventually conducted an military operation against them devastating their grazing lands was a totally different clan from the Habar Magaadle.I have no clue which modern clan or major clan groupings they would be associated with this tribe in modern SL/Ethiopia
http://i.imgur.com/zCIcCg6.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EWzdJnWXYAE-VZQ.jpg:large

Seems I was led astray by some Dir I saw online a while back claiming Habar Maqdi were Dir. I suspect Habar Maqdi and Magaadle are in fact the same thing in some of the English translations based on the quotes. I did notice the Yabbare mentioned. But either way, you can see most of the clans are the same ones who lived near Harar a few centuries later and most of the areas the Futuh describes are in the hinterland. Bali, Shewa, Hadiya etc. This is all seemingly taking place in Ethiopia and not really in Somaliland for the most part. Do you contest this?

drobbah
05-21-2021, 11:50 PM
Seems I was led astray by some Dir I saw online a while back claiming Habar Maqdi were Dir. I suspect Habar Maqdi and Magaadle are in fact the same thing in some of the English translations based on the quotes. I did notice the Yabbare mentioned. But either way, you can see most of the clans are the same ones who lived near Harar a few centuries later and most of the areas the Futuh describes are in the hinterland. Bali, Shewa, Hadiya etc. This is all seemingly taking place in Ethiopia and not really in Somaliland for the most part. Do you contest this?
You are right as whenever he mentions the Somalis and calling upon them, they usually leave their homeland to arrive in the valleys of Harar.I think the only time he was in SL is when he had a civil war with the previous Sultan and the expedition against the Habar Maqdi.

Also I forgot to mention earlier but the Muhammad that lead the Harla side of the army was actually the Imam's half brother Muhammad bin Ibrahim.I think many of us on this thread confused him with Sultan Muhammad bin Cali who was from the Walashma dynasty but was also the son of the Imam's paternal aunt.He was the one with the soldiers from Zarba

Awale
05-22-2021, 12:01 AM
You are right as whenever he mentions the Somalis and calling upon them, they usually leave their homeland to arrive in the valleys of Harar.I think the only time he was in SL is when he had a civil war with the previous Sultan and the expedition against the Habar Maqdi.

Also I forgot to mention earlier but the Muhammad that lead the Harla side of the army was actually the Imam's half brother Muhammad bin Ibrahim.I think many of us on this thread confused him with Sultan Muhammad bin Cali who was from the Walashma dynasty but was also the son of the Imam's paternal aunt.He was the one with the soldiers from Zarba


Yeah and notice all the clans mentioned again. Geri Kombe, Hawiye, Gurgura, Marehan and even if the Habar Maqdi are indeed Habar Magaadle as I believe you are correct on that count then they too were noted to be living around Harar in the centuries later. The only real outlier I think is Harti but he takes the time to tell us they are from Maydh, a far away place. They were probably there in the same sort of capacity as groups like the Mahra. Not from the region or directly involved in the conflict but participating as Muslims and also looking for plunder. The other clans were involved because this is their hood, basically.

But, walaal, could you show me what your translation or, if you still have some of it, the Arabic manuscript says for this part cos my edition says it is the same Muhammad bin Ali of the Zarba:


The imam split his forces into three divisions: all the Somalis were in one division whose command he entrusted to Mattan; another division was made up of the [tribe of] Harla whose command he gave to the sultan Muhammad, son of the imam’s maternal aunt; and the other division was made up of the Malasai.

...

In the same way the tribe of Zarba came up from Harla with their lord the sultan Muhammad with twenty knights and three-hundred foot-soldiers. The tribes assembled - all of them volunteers and on good terms with one another. The number of the horses in readiness was around five-hundred, and there were twelve-thousand

lavrok
05-22-2021, 12:08 AM
Seems I was led astray by some Dir I saw online a while back claiming Habar Maqdi were Dir. I suspect Habar Maqdi and Magaadle are in fact the same thing in some of the English translations based on the quotes. I did notice the Yabbare mentioned. But either way, you can see most of the clans are the same ones who lived near Harar a few centuries later and most of the areas the Futuh describes are in the hinterland. Bali, Shewa, Hadiya etc. This is all seemingly taking place in Ethiopia and not really in Somaliland for the most part. Do you contest this?

Siyaaro in Somaliland (to the east of Berbera) was the capital and base of the Sad Ul Diin faction during the wars between Muslims of the horn and the Ethiopians that eventually culminated in the Futuh campaign.

https://i.ibb.co/Y8NjGGp/EZmt-AGQXQAA87-SY.png

drobbah
05-22-2021, 12:11 AM
Yeah and notice all the clans mentioned again. Geri Kombe, Hawiye, Gurgura, Marehan and even if the Habar Maqdi are indeed Habar Magaadle as I believe you are correct on that count then they too were noted to be living around Harar in the centuries later. The only real outlier I think is Harti but he takes the time to tell us they are from Maydh, a far away place. They were probably there in the same sort of capacity as groups like the Mahra. Not from the region or directly involved in the conflict but participating as Muslims and also looking for plunder. The other clans were involved because this is their hood, basically.

But, walaal, could you show me what your translation or, if you still have some of it, the Arabic manuscript says for this part cos my edition says it is the same Muhammad bin Ali of the Zarba:
You are right, I mixed up two battles.The Imam's full brother Muhammad bin Ibrahim was chieftain of the tribes of Shewa,Hargaya etc and not over the Harla like the Walashma Muhammad bin Cali.



He tied a third standard, yellow and red combined, to the spear which he entrusted to the wazir Nur ibn Ibrahim.The tribes of Shewa, and the tribes of Hargaya rallied to him.At that time their chieftain was Muhammad bin Ibrahim,the brother of the Imam; and the army of Jarir whose chieftain was the half-brother of the Sultan Umar Din from his mother




The Imam split his forces into three divisions: all the Somalis were in one division whose command he entrusted to Mattan; another division was made up of the [tribe of] Harla whose command he gave to the Sultan Muhammad, son of the Imam's maternal aunt; and the other division was made up of the Malasai, a people used to incursions and to a thorough-going Jihad, upon whom he could rely rely in battle

drobbah
05-22-2021, 12:18 AM
Siyaaro in Somaliland (to the east of Berbera) was the capital and base of the Sad Ul Diin faction during the wars between Muslims of the horn and the Ethiopians that eventually culminated in the Futuh campaign.

https://i.ibb.co/Y8NjGGp/EZmt-AGQXQAA87-SY.png
The children of Sultan Sa'ad-Diin returned from Yemen and decided to base there as it would keep them safe from the Abysinnian emperors who routinely attacked Zeila.A semi-arid landscape (difficult to resupply army) with hostile nomadic Muslims makes Siyaaro out of reach from the Abysinnians

Awale
05-22-2021, 12:19 AM
Siyaaro in Somaliland (to the east of Berbera) was the capital and base of the Sad Ul Diin faction during the wars between Muslims of the horn and the Ethiopians that eventually culminated in the Futuh campaign.

https://i.ibb.co/Y8NjGGp/EZmt-AGQXQAA87-SY.png

I do not recall this in the Futuh. Where did you get it, walaal? Mind sending it my way via PM? Don't worry, I can read and understand Arabic. That being said, you can see from reading the Futuh that like 90% of what's going in it doesn't happen in Somaliland. It's mostly in Ethiopia near Harar and areas beyond like Shewa, Bale, northern SNNP and even into Tigray and so forth. And most of the Somali clans mentioned are indeed interior clans to the west. Are you contesting this?

Mirix
05-22-2021, 12:31 AM
You seem to be confused about the text, the quotes I have included above are directly from the Futuh text, not from Richard Pankhurst as you claim:



You ought to actually read the text before engaging in discussions about it. The text is explicit in describing the Imam dividing the army into three separate divisions, with one including all Somalis, while the other two divisions comprise of Harla and Malasay exclusively. The reason for that per the book is tensions specifically between Somalis and Harla.Futuh never mentions anything about Soomaal being an occupational name, this is your own strawman you are attempting to shoehorn into the discussion. The text provides a general description of ethnic groups relevant to the context of the conquest, being very careful to to distinguish Somali from Tigray, Harla or Arab

Yes thats more or less an accurate text. The one you qouted where it's says tribes from Arabs, Harla,Somali and Malasay. Is not from the text at all. The text you shown talks about divisions within the army itself.

Malasay was a composite military elite and a division in the army. A title given to an outstanding warrior. It wasn't a tribe or a clan. Nor is it mentions as such. Infact like i said he lists that Malsay are military leaders/Cheifts that are drawn from different calvries and soldiers and lists names soon after with individuals from different clans .

From the text


English and Arabic:

At that time the imam assembled his forces and called up his army. He tied a white standard to a spear, and entrusted it to the wazir 'Addoli and the people of Sim rallied to him, ls' from the tribe of the Somalis the Habr Maqdi, and the tribe of Ahmad Girri, and with them two-hundred cavalry and two-thousand infantry like savage lions.


ي ذلك الوقت جمع الإمام قواته واستدعى جيشه. ربط رمحًا بقاعدة بيضاء ، وأوكلها إلى الوزير عدولي ، واجتمع إليه أهل سيم ، من قبيلة الصوماليين هبر المقددي ، ومن قبيلة أحمد قري ، ومعهم اثنان: مائة من الفرسان وألفي مشاة مثل
أسود متوحش.


The chiefs of the cavalry were from the Malasai ^ contingent of the mujahiduir. The emir Mujahid Suha, Absama Nur, Garad Samaun, Garad Barhan, Balaw 'Abd, Alus bin al-Hcgano, Aiyub and Kaled al-Waradl: this latter was their guide along the route. They were all drawn from the courageous heroes of the cavalry and foot-soldiers. Kaled was their guarantee [as guide] and he likewise Was from the number of knights well-known for courage: al-Urai, Nur Qata bin 'Umar, brother-in-law of Garad Mahfuz; Farasaham 'Utman Yemaj; Amajad


كان رؤساء الفرسان من فرقة المجاهدين الملاساي. الأمير مجاهد سهى ، أبسامة نور ، جراد سماون ، جراد برهان ، بلوع عبد ، ألوس بن الهجانو ، أيوب ، وخالد الورادل: هذا الأخير كان مرشدهم على طول الطريق. تم اختيارهم جميعًا من الأبطال الشجعان لسلاح الفرسان وجنود المشاة. كان خالد ضمانة لهم [كدليل] وهو كذلك كان من بين عدد من الفرسان المشهورين بشجاعتهم: العري ، نور قاطع بن عمر ، صهر جراد محفوظ. فراساهم عثمان يماج ؛ أمجد

Ahmad bin al-Husain; Sar Abu Bakr; Muminat Abu Bakr; Del Sagad, the knight of Sim; sum Waradai; hegano cutman waradai: all of these were converts to Islam. Their conversion was sincere, and they fought a fine jihad for God.

حمد بن الحسين. سار أبو بكر مؤمنة ابو بكر. ديل ساجاد فارس سيم ؛ سوم واراداي هيغانو أوتمان واراداي: كل هؤلاء اعتنقوا الإسلام. كان تحولهمجهاد حسن في سبيل الله. جهاد حسن في سبيل الله.

And Soomaals means the pastoralist tribes, and it doesn't mention all of the clans as a collective for example. When the call to gather happens he includes Zarba are listed with them and other times with Harla and Harla along with the different qabils.




[The Somali tribes gather for the jihad ]

[القبائل الصومالية تتجمع للجهاد]

It was after this that the Mahra party and the sharif Muhammad reached the imam who feted their coming on account of the jihad ; and then he sent to all the districts of the Somalis and to the tribes of Harla. Then all the tribes rose up.

بعد ذلك وصل حزب المهرة والشريف محمد إلى الإمام الذي يكرّم مجيئهم بسبب الجهاد. ثم أرسل إلى كل مقاطعات الصوماليين وإلى قبائل هارلا. ثم قامت كل القبائل


The first tribe to come up was the Habr Maqdi with their lord Garad Dawit, fifty knights and five-hundred foot-soldiers. After them the Marraihan came up, with their lord Ahmad bin Hirabu, with eighty knights and seven-hundred foot-soldiers. After them came up the Gorgorah with Garad 'Abd their chieftain, and thirty knights and one-thousand foot-soldiers.


أول قبيلة صعدت كانت هبر مقدي مع سيدهم جاراد داويت ، خمسون فارساً وخمسمائة جندي راجل. وبعدهم صعد مروان مع سيدهم أحمد بن حيرابو ومعهم ثمانون فارساً وسبعمائة راجل. وبعدهم صعدوا الجرجورة ومعه جاراد عبد زعيمهم وثلاثون فارسا وألف راجل.

Then the tribe of Girri came up, with their chieftain Garad Mattan along with eighty knights and one-thousand foot-soldiers. In the same way the tribe of Zarba came up from Harla with their lord the sultan Muhammad with twenty knights and three-hundred foot-soldiers. The tribes assembled - all of them volunteers and on good terms with one another. The number of the horses in readiness was around five-hundred, and there were twelve-thousand foot-soldiers, not to mention those who carried the provisions and other things besides.


ثم صعدت قبيلة جيري مع زعيمهم جاراد متان وثمانين فارسا وألف جندي. وبنفس الطريقة جاءت قبيلة الزربا من هارلا مع سيدهم السلطان محمد بعشرين فارساً وثلاثمائة راجل. تجمعت القبائل - كلهم ​​متطوعون وعلى علاقة طيبة مع بعضهم البعض. كان عدد الخيول الجاهزة حوالي خمسمائة ، وكان هناك اثنا عشر ألفًا راجلًا ، ناهيك عن من حمل المؤن وما إلى ذلك.



Then goes on to describe Zarba as district within the Soomaal country.


The storyteller, may God have mercy upon him, says: Thereupon the imam disbanded his soldiers, saying to them, ‘Each of you return to your town, feed your horses well, keep your weapons in readiness until I come to you, and you set out [again] on a raid. For the moment I am going to a district called Zarba to pacify the country, to make peace between the citizens and the Somaals, and to mobilise an
army: and then I will come back to you.'They agreed with what he had to say, broke up. and each person went back to his own town. Those of the emirs who stayed behind in the country, stayed close by the sultan, while the imam Ahmad, may the Most High God have mercy upon him, went down to Zarba with thirty horsemen. The Sultan ‘Umar Din, meanwhile, consulted with the emirs of the country concerning the matter of the alms-tax: among them were the wazir Nur, and Garad Ahmusa, Qatln Abu Bakr, Ura‘I Abun bin ‘Utman, Jasa ‘Umar, Garad‘AH Husa brother of the sultan ‘Umar Din, Garad Ahmad bin Lad ‘Utman.

It is clear from the text he is talking about pastoralists .i.e bedouins. And uses it very losely. Not an ethnic group. There is not a distinction made other than one thats between sedentary and the pastoral tribes.. Malasay is also clearly not a tribes, or clans or anything like that nor is it mentioned as a such.

lavrok
05-22-2021, 12:40 AM
I do not recall this in the Futuh. Where did you get it, walaal? Mind sending it my way via PM? Don't worry, I can read and understand Arabic. That being said, you can see from reading the Futuh that like 90% of what's going in it doesn't happen in Somaliland. It's mostly in Ethiopia near Harar and areas beyond like Shewa, Bale, northern SNNP and even into Tigray and so forth. And most of the Somali clans mentioned are indeed interior clans to the west. Are you contesting this?

Its not from Futuh, this is a different source. According to this account the source is a book based on old Harari Ba-Alawi manuscripts:

https://twitter.com/thebhlub/status/1268238266932871178

lavrok
05-22-2021, 12:46 AM
And Soomaals means the pastoralist tribes..

This is your own understanding, Futuh simply made no comment on this claim of yours. Somali/Arab/Harla/Tigre..etc were presented as different groups in variety of contexts.

Mirix
05-22-2021, 12:51 AM
This is your own understanding, Futuh simply made no comment on this claim of yours. Somali/Arab/Harla/Tigre..etc were presented as different groups in variety of contexts.

It doesn't make the comment or claim they are different ethnicities either. It talks about different clans or Qabils.

Mirix
05-22-2021, 12:55 AM
One thing I'd like to add is that the clans mentioned in the Futuh strongly support this. From what I could see you have the Gorgorah (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurgura) & Habar Maqdi (Dir), the Geri Kombe, Marehan, Bartire and Harti (Darood) and the Hawiye ("Hawiya"). All but one of these clans (Harti) have been historically known to be the furthest western Somalis who generally lived close to Harar:

https://i.imgur.com/Q43ixFq.png

Even the Marehan used to live in that general vicinity to some extent and are mentioned by Richard Burton during the 1800s. Burton's writings honestly startled me a lot when I first read it cos many of the same clans he mentions living near and within Harar like the Hawiye subclans, the Bartire (Berteri) and so forth are the same ones mentioned in the Futuh. No other Somali clans known to have historically been in regions like Awdal (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Awdal,+Somalia/@9.8772842,43.7509094,8z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x16244a26bab783c3:0x7597da10de1be 2c6!8m2!3d10.6334285!4d43.329466), Marood Jeex (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Woqooyi+Galbeed,+Somalia/@9.8258398,42.3599052,7z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x1627dd12108c33e9:0x1855daa9eb6dc a76!8m2!3d9.542374!4d44.0960311) or Togdheer (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Togdheer,+Somalia/@9.0629043,43.567149,7z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x3d86ecc07eefccd9:0x45d96945648af f31!8m2!3d9.4460587!4d45.2993862) are mentioned in the Futuh. No Samaroon, no Habar Jeclo and no Habar Awal, for example. The only eastern clan mentioned are the Harti who are the only Somalis noted explicitly to be associated with a far away eastern settlement (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maydh) and were probably there as opportunists like the Arabs. The other clans are clearly from around the region the Imam operates in as I pointed out with an earlier post. Even Zeila is mostly mentioned in passing as a source for canon imports. If one reads the text closely they can see most of the Futuh is going on in the interior of the Horn. Just look at some of the groups mentioned like Hadiyas, Gedeos (Gedaya) and regions like Bale (Bali) where lots of campaigning happens:

https://i.imgur.com/ItNZo1U.png

I don't know where anyone would get the impression that much of any of this took place in Somaliland. It's nearly all in Ethiopia. Around Harar and beyond.

I agree with you here. It makes sense most of the clans are not at all from the east and actually from the west. The country hawiye is the Gugundhabe, Karanle near and around Harrar. That still live there today. Same with Habr Maqdi , Gorgara , Geri, Bartire clans mentioned etc Only Harti is from the east which the author specificies.

Look at the Clan distribution in the map you just showed, like 99% of the clans are poeple that live in, near and around Harar or futher west.

Awale
05-22-2021, 12:58 AM
Its not from Futuh, this is a different source. According to this account the source is a book based on old Harari Ba-Alawi manuscripts:

https://twitter.com/thebhlub/status/1268238266932871178

Thank you but either way the Futuh is not really taking place in Somaliland. It seems quite apparent that all of this is in the interior. Everything from the clans mentioned to the locations makes it fairly clear.

lavrok
05-22-2021, 01:01 AM
It doesn't make the comment or claim they are different ethnicities either. It talks about different clans or Qabils.

You are ignoring the obvious. The Futuh text makes careful distinction between different groups. In the case of Somalis and Harla it actually lists their individual subclans (subclans of Somali origins and ones of Harla origins). This is as clear a description as one can reasonably expect from a 16th century text.

Mirix
05-22-2021, 01:28 AM
You are ignoring the obvious. The Futuh text makes careful distinction between different groups. In the case of Somalis and Harla it actually lists their individual subclans (subclans of Somali origins and ones of Harla origins). This is as clear a description as one can reasonably expect from a 16th century text.

What are these distinctions based on? Does Futuh tell you that? Or is it a matter of interpretation? . Malasai are a composite warrior elite of individuals drawn from different clans and leading the cavalries, Futuh makes it painfully clear but to ignore the obvious an interpret it as a tribe until i had to bring some more examples from the text.

Whilst other times he says in the text when the Somals were going to desert after taking booty, so to would many of the Malasai will leave with them as well.

Same goes for other moments in the texts where he groups and mentions Soomaal clans with other clans mentioned like the Harla and Zarba. Even groups people of Sim from tribes of Soomal. As the the text goes on further the mentions of different clans/demographics/distintictions etc dissappear.

Mirix
05-22-2021, 01:37 AM
Its not from Futuh, this is a different source. According to this account the source is a book based on old Harari Ba-Alawi manuscripts:

https://twitter.com/thebhlub/status/1268238266932871178


How old is the text? As far as i am aware oldest text/book in circulation that comments on Futuh Al Habash is the An Arabic History of Gujarat (https://archive.org/details/arabichistoryofg00ulug) which was published at the start of 17th century century and a modern edition was reprinted in the 20th century . This book only lists the Habar Maqdi.

Awale
05-22-2021, 02:05 AM
Wait... Lavrok, why didn't you share this?


https://i.imgur.com/U6ygFsz.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/kIVhODJ.png

Link (https://twitter.com/thebhlub/status/1267814933636382723)

This is a crazy find as the Twitter poster says if it's true.

lavrok
05-22-2021, 09:20 AM
Wait... Lavrok, why didn't you share this?


https://i.imgur.com/U6ygFsz.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/kIVhODJ.png

Link (https://twitter.com/thebhlub/status/1267814933636382723)

This is a crazy find as the Twitter poster says if it's true.

I had not seen that one, excellent find though, and falls inline with what Futuh discusses of Habar Magaadle being the first clan to respond to the Imam.

Thanks for sharing!

lavrok
05-22-2021, 09:24 AM
What are these distinctions based on? Does Futuh tell you that? Or is it a matter of interpretation? . Malasai are a composite warrior elite of individuals drawn from different clans and leading the cavalries, Futuh makes it painfully clear but to ignore the obvious an interpret it as a tribe until i had to bring some more examples from the text.

Whilst other times he says in the text when the Somals were going to desert after taking booty, so to would many of the Malasai will leave with them as well.

Same goes for other moments in the texts where he groups and mentions Soomaal clans with other clans mentioned like the Harla and Zarba. Even groups people of Sim from tribes of Soomal. As the the text goes on further the mentions of different clans/demographics/distintictions etc dissappear.

At this stage its clear to any reader you are pushing an erroneous narrative, the author of Futuh actually lists subclans of both Somali and Harla separately, there is no ambiguity here. In the case of Malasay, he goes out of his way to explain the term to the reader as a footnote but does not do the same for Tigre, Arab, Somal or Harla.

The twitter thread linked to above has a Somali reading of the Futuh, it makes the issue so abundantly clear:

https://twitter.com/thebhlub/status/1257605434300645378


"Imaamku wuxuu uqaybiyey ciidankiisa saddex qaybood:

1- Soomaalida dhamaanteed [...]

2- Xarlahan [Harla] Soomaalidu wey khaladaa, aad waxay ugu khaldaan Xarla Koombe. Xarlahani waa Xarlaha ugu awooda badan qabaa'iisha meesha ka dagaalamiya, waana Cafar, maaha Xarla Koombe.

... Mataan Cismaan iyo Soomaalida oodhan meel baa lamariyey, Xarle iyo cidankoodana meel baa lamariyey. Markaa isku shaqo maaha

Hope that settles it.

lavrok
05-22-2021, 09:32 AM
How old is the text? As far as i am aware oldest text/book in circulation that comments on Futuh Al Habash is the An Arabic History of Gujarat (https://archive.org/details/arabichistoryofg00ulug) which was published at the start of 17th century century and a modern edition was reprinted in the 20th century . This book only lists the Habar Maqdi.

The oldest reference to Futuh is the manuscript copy stored at King Saud university which is dated 1811, this is the highest quality copy of Futuh Al Habash we currently have, and it makes clear distinction between Habar Magaadle who were supporters of the Imam, and Habar Maqdi the bandits who came under Hiraabu Goita Tedrus.

The calligraphy in that copy is very carefully delineated such that Somali names are recorded exactly as they are pronounced.

The History of Gujarat copy we currently have comes later, dated 1921.

Mirix
05-22-2021, 11:35 AM
At this stage its clear to any reader you are pushing an erroneous narrative, the author of Futuh actually lists subclans of both Somali and Harla separately, there is no ambiguity here. In the case of Malasay, he goes out of his way to explain the term to the reader as a footnote but does not do the same for Tigre, Arab, Somal or Harla.

The twitter thread linked to above has a Somali reading of the Futuh, it makes the issue so abundantly clear:

https://twitter.com/thebhlub/status/1257605434300645378



Hope that settles it.

All Futuh does is list different Qabilis and sometimes even group them together like i have shown you, he doesn’t explain things at all. The rest are just interpretation being made seperately by secondary sources. The same false intrepretation being made about Malasay like one did above that thought it was a tribe:lol:

Linking me a twitter troll post by an Isaaq nationalist. Where he posts screens pf texts he got from who knows where. Yabarre is Habar Magadle And not Darood? How does one come to believe that

and if one believes Imam Ahmed is related to Habar Magadle maternally why is there an argument being made on this thread for him being Afar or Beja? Qabilism like this has no place in honest academic discussions , where he has to be from someones qabil if not i’ll paint him and others as a foreigner. It’s ironic one cannot talk about dishonesty and link me something like that and do gymnastics all over the thread.

Mirix
05-22-2021, 11:43 AM
The oldest reference to Futuh is the manuscript copy stored at King Saud university which is dated 1811, this is the highest quality copy of Futuh Al Habash we currently have, and it makes clear distinction between Habar Magaadle who were supporters of the Imam, and Habar Maqdi the bandits who came under Hiraabu Goita Tedrus.

The calligraphy in that copy is very carefully delineated such that Somali names are recorded exactly as they are pronounced.

The History of Gujarat copy we currently have comes later, dated 1921.

Click the Saud link he shown in the tweet , nothing shows up. Its a dead end. Verifiable Academic books and sources is welcome not tweets by some isaaq nationalist.

History of Gujarat is a reprint of an early 17th century text, direct reproduction and it only says Habr Maqdi. First published at early 17th century.

Ramzy's Egyptian copy that differentiates between Habar Magaadle and Habar Maqdi was first published in Egypt is not the original manuscript. It is a copy made by a man called Mahamad Ibrahim in 1812.

In 1881, General Charles George Gordon got hold of an orginal manuscript and donated it to the British Museum. This mansucript was edited by Strong and is available on the Archives website. This book also only lists the Habar Maqdi. https://archive.org/details/futalabashahorc00argoog

Awale
05-22-2021, 01:32 PM
Click the Saud link he shown in the tweet , nothing shows up. Its a dead end. Verifiable Academic books and sources is welcome not tweets by some isaaq nationalist.

History of Gujarat is a reprint of an early 17th century text, direct reproduction and it only says Habr Maqdi. First published at early 17th century.

Ramzy's Egyptian copy that differentiates between Habar Magaadle and Habar Maqdi was first published in Egypt is not the original manuscript. It is a copy made by a man called Mahamad Ibrahim in 1812.

In 1881, General Charles George Gordon got hold of an orginal manuscript and donated it to the British Museum. This mansucript was edited by Strong and is available on the Archives website. This book also only lists the Habar Maqdi. https://archive.org/details/futalabashahorc00argoog

Thanks for all the info, walaal. But either way I think Habar Maqdi/Majdi = Habar Magaadle. I don't know where that Dir I saw ages ago was getting his claim but the only Somali clan I can see with a similar etymology seems Habar Magaadle. That being said, I did a list of all the tribes I could see mentioned in the Futuh:

Tribal mentions are divided between clearly named tribes and cases where it says "tribes of [insert region]" which seems to imply there are several unnamed tribes in this given region:

Tribes:

Balaw, Gim, Marehan, Yamli, Habar Maqdi, Girri, Sagara, Yibberi, Zarba, Harti, Jairan/Jaran, Mazra/Mazzar, Zaman Bara, Barzara, Yaqula, Arab Tka, al-Qa, Barsub, Gorgorah, Hawiya, Bar Tarrai and Husaini

Blue are confirmed Somali tribes and green are confirmed Harla tribes.

Tribes of:

Tribes of Tegre, tribes of Agaw, tribes of Gojjam, tribes of Sawa, tribes of Hargaya, tribes of Ganz, tribes of Gedaya and tribes of the Maya


(note: tribes and "tribes of" are simply listed in the order they are mentioned)

_______________

So among the Somali tribes we have:

Darood: Geri Kombe, Marehan, Bartire, Yabbare and Harti
Isaaq: Habar Magaadle
Dir: Gurgura and Barsuuk
Hawiye: Hawiya

And whomever the "Jairan/Jaran" and Mazzar/Mazra are. I have also highlighted in red all of the Somali clans that have historically been known to be far western clans living near Harar or who at least have had historically known subclans (like the Karanle for the Hawiye) who have lived around there. Only the Harti appear an outlier. The various tribal regions as well as regions not mentioned to have tribes (i.e. Hadya, Amhara and Ayfars) are all seemingly in Ethiopia as well.


At this stage its clear to any reader you are pushing an erroneous narrative, the author of Futuh actually lists subclans of both Somali and Harla separately, there is no ambiguity here. In the case of Malasay, he goes out of his way to explain the term to the reader as a footnote but does not do the same for Tigre, Arab, Somal or Harla.

The twitter thread linked to above has a Somali reading of the Futuh, it makes the issue so abundantly clear:

https://twitter.com/thebhlub/status/1257605434300645378



Hope that settles it.

Walaal, I doubt they were Afars. Whatever the Harla were they were probably assimilated by Afars the same as they were probably assimilated by Oromos and Somalis, if they indeed never belonged to either the first or third group. In the Futuh Afars are actually mentioned. Some of it takes place in "the land of Ayfars" and at no point does Arab Faqih take the time to tell us "Ayfars" or this region has anything to do with Harlas and I've seen listings of Afar tribal names (https://reliefweb.int/sites/reliefweb.int/files/resources/609C7A905DEFCF1185256AF60061F79D-undp-eue_eth_30oct.pdf); they are nothing like the five Harla tribes listed. Not to mention that we are never given a tribal run down for Afars in the book as far as I've seen. I do not think this group was involved at all. The Horner Muslims involved seem to mainly be Somalis, likely Southern Ethiosemites and Sidamics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_East_Cushitic_languages) (i.e. Hadya (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadiya_people) and Gedaya (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gedeo_people)).

lavrok
05-22-2021, 03:43 PM
All Futuh does is list different Qabilis and sometimes even group them together like i have shown you, he doesn’t explain things at all. The rest are just interpretation being made seperately by secondary sources. The same false intrepretation being made about Malasay like one did above that thought it was a tribe:lol:

Linking me a twitter troll post by an Isaaq nationalist. Where he posts screens pf texts he got from who knows where. Yabarre is Habar Magadle And not Darood? How does one come to believe that

and if one believes Imam Ahmed is related to Habar Magadle maternally why is there an argument being made on this thread for him being Afar or Beja? Qabilism like this has no place in honest academic discussions , where he has to be from someones qabil if not i’ll paint him and others as a foreigner. It’s ironic one cannot talk about dishonesty and link me something like that and do gymnastics all over the thread.

I think my case has been made, you have provided zero evidence of Futuh discussing your mythical Soomaal strawman construct. On the other hand, I have detailed how 1) Arabs, Somalis, Tigrey and Harla were discussed in the text as distinct groups, 2) provided direct quotations (that you claimed were not from the original text) listing sub-groupings of Harla which the book juxtaposes against Somalis to further make the distinction between them clear and 3) provided evidence from Somali language sources detailing how Harla are not Somali.

You are just clutching at semantics, and misusing sources that clearly contradict the view you are trying to push. I think discussion on this issue is over.

Btw, Yabarre being linked to Habar Magaadleh is actually a direct quote from the manuscript of Futuh which I believe Drobbah quoted on a previous page, it literally states: "... and the Yabarre are Habar Magaadleh".


Click the Saud link he shown in the tweet , nothing shows up. Its a dead end. Verifiable Academic books and sources is welcome not tweets by some isaaq nationalist.

History of Gujarat is a reprint of an early 17th century text, direct reproduction and it only says Habr Maqdi. First published at early 17th century.

Ramzy's Egyptian copy that differentiates between Habar Magaadle and Habar Maqdi was first published in Egypt is not the original manuscript. It is a copy made by a man called Mahamad Ibrahim in 1812.

In 1881, General Charles George Gordon got hold of an orginal manuscript and donated it to the British Museum. This mansucript was edited by Strong and is available on the Archives website. This book also only lists the Habar Maqdi. https://archive.org/details/futalabashahorc00argoog

I found that twitter thread to be excellent, and it does include all sources embedded in the tweet. History of Gujarat copy we have is not the original 17th century document but a reprint published recently in 1921. We have no access to the original 17th century text unless you have a copy you would like to share.

On the other hand, the Futuh manuscript copy referenced above is dated 1811, it is thus by far the oldest copy-of and reference-to Futuh conquest we currently have.

Lastly, a quick Google search produced this link (https://makhtota.ksu.edu.sa/makhtota/554/4) for the King Saud manuscript, if you were unable to find the copy yourself you probably should have asked here first before making the condescending statement above.






Walaal, I doubt they were Afars. Whatever the Harla were they were probably assimilated by Afars the same as they were probably assimilated by Oromos and Somalis, if they indeed never belonged to either the first or third group. In the Futuh Afars are actually mentioned. Some of it takes place in "the land of Ayfars" and at no point does Arab Faqih take the time to tell us "Ayfars" or this region has anything to do with Harlas and I've seen listings of Afar tribal names (https://reliefweb.int/sites/reliefweb.int/files/resources/609C7A905DEFCF1185256AF60061F79D-undp-eue_eth_30oct.pdf); they are nothing like the five Harla tribes listed. Not to mention that we are never given a tribal run down for Afars in the book as far as I've seen. I do not think this group was involved at all. The Horner Muslims involved seem to mainly be Somalis, likely Southern Ethiosemites and Sidamics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_East_Cushitic_languages) (i.e. Hadya (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadiya_people) and Gedaya (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gedeo_people)).


I am not married to the thought they were Afar, this is all speculation given that the Futuh text did not specify the origins of Harla (just like it did not specify the origins of Somalis). But the text is clear cut that Somalis and Harla were two distinct groups, and that each had its own sub-groupings and clans.

I would caution against simply looking at a listing of Afar tribal names, as the dynamics of their sub-groupings may well be different from what is indicated in the Futuh text, e.g. no modern listing of Somali tribal names would include a reference to Habar Magaadle for instance, but would instead list constituents subclans who are now large enough to stand alone (i.e. Habar Awal, Arab, Garxajis, Ayuub). So lets not discount the Afar altogether just yet.

lavrok
05-22-2021, 03:52 PM
The Futuh also mentions the modern Yabarre clan as a part of the Habar Magaadle
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EWzaw0aWAAAMgr7?format=png&name=small

Ahlu Sim wa gabiila Mare7aan wa gabiila "Yabarre hum Habar Magaadle wa ahlul Jurir

The people of Sim, the tribe of Marexaan, the tribe of Yabarre who are Habar Magaadle and people of Jurir


Perhaps the Yabarre were long lost Habar Magaadle who knows lol but they do neighbour Sacad Muuse (specifically my subclan) in Ethiopia.


Here is a direct quotation. This is extraordinary because both names (Yabarre and Habar Magaadle) are written exactly how they are pronounced in Somali, indicating that Arab Faqih was relaying this information from actual Yabarre and Habar Magaadle he met during his time with the Imam and his army.

Mirix
05-22-2021, 04:00 PM
Thanks for all the info, walaal. But either way I think Habar Maqdi/Majdi = Habar Magaadle. I don't know where that Dir I saw ages ago was getting his claim but the only Somali clan I can see with a similar etymology seems Habar Magaadle. That being said, I did a list of all the tribes I could see mentioned in the Futuh:

Tribal mentions are divided between clearly named tribes and cases where it says "tribes of [insert region]" which seems to imply there are several unnamed tribes in this given region:

Tribes:

Balaw, Gim, Marehan, Yamli, Habar Maqdi, Girri, Sagara, Yibberi, Zarba, Harti, Jairan/Jaran, Mazra/Mazzar, Zaman Bara, Barzara, Yaqula, Arab Tka, al-Qa, Barsub, Gorgorah, Hawiya, Bar Tarrai and Husaini

Blue are confirmed Somali tribes and green are confirmed Harla tribes.

Tribes of:

Tribes of Tegre, tribes of Agaw, tribes of Gojjam, tribes of Sawa, tribes of Hargaya, tribes of Ganz, tribes of Gedaya and tribes of the Maya


(note: tribes and "tribes of" are simply listed in the order they are mentioned)

_______________

So among the Somali tribes we have:

Darood: Geri Kombe, Marehan, Bartire, Yabbare and Harti
Isaaq: Habar Magaadle
Dir: Gurgura and Barsuuk
Hawiye: Hawiya

And whomever the "Jairan/Jaran" and Mazzar/Mazra are. I have also highlighted in red all of the Somali clans that have historically been known to be far western clans living near Harar or who at least have had historically known subclans (like the Karanle for the Hawiye) who have lived around there. Only the Harti appear an outlier. The various tribal regions as well as regions not mentioned to have tribes (i.e. Hadya, Amhara and Ayfars) are all seemingly in Ethiopia as well.



Walaal, I doubt they were Afars. Whatever the Harla were they were probably assimilated by Afars the same as they were probably assimilated by Oromos and Somalis, if they indeed never belonged to either the first or third group. In the Futuh Afars are actually mentioned. Some of it takes place in "the land of Ayfars" and at no point does Arab Faqih take the time to tell us "Ayfars" or this region has anything to do with Harlas and I've seen listings of Afar tribal names (https://reliefweb.int/sites/reliefweb.int/files/resources/609C7A905DEFCF1185256AF60061F79D-undp-eue_eth_30oct.pdf); they are nothing like the five Harla tribes listed. Not to mention that we are never given a tribal run down for Afars in the book as far as I've seen. I do not think this group was involved at all. The Horner Muslims involved seem to mainly be Somalis, likely Southern Ethiosemites and Sidamics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_East_Cushitic_languages) (i.e. Hadya (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadiya_people) and Gedaya (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gedeo_people)).

Habr Maqdi is Habar Maqdi (Makadi)/Makadur is a Dir clan. A Gadabursi clan to be more exact. Seems as straight forward as can be. It also makes more sense because from the map you shown they are more of a western clan. Futuh also mentions battle taking place in places like Awbube which is a Gadabursi country.

I agree though Futuh just lists different Qabils in the ones you mentioned above. Zarba is sometimes bunched with somali and other times its with Harla.

And he says at one point Futuh proceeds to list Harla among the Somali clans: Like in this, which straight from the text no bs.


There upon the emir Husain bin Abu Bakr al-Gaturl arose and said to the imam Ahmad, ‘This will never happen. If they want war. then we will assemble our armies from the people of Sim and from the Somali tribes: the tribe of Girri, the tribe of Habr Maqdi, the tribe of Harla, for our armies have been dispersed. How can we do as they wish? We shall not surrender the country to them.’

هناك على الأمير الحسين بن أبي بكر الجتورل قام وقال للإمام أحمد: هذا لن يحدث. إذا كانوا يريدون الحرب. ثم ث: ج سيجمع جيوشنا من أهل سيم و [ب] من القبائل الصومالية: قبيلة جيري ، قبيلة هبر مقدي ، قبيلة هارلا [/ ب] ، لأن جيوشنا مشتتة. كيف يمكننا أن نفعل ما يحلو لهم؟ لن نسلم البلد لهم.


Not only does he bunch the the diifferent clans together he says Zarba is district in Soomaal country, in another passage he says Zarba is country in the Harla region. You see what i mean by him being vague about things and somewhat contradictive.

The people of sim is even more vague and says The people of sim rally to him from the tribes of Somalis. And he mentions the different clans. In other areas he says people of sim is among the first division lists different clans again.


Then he split his force into three divisions. The first consisted of the people of Sim, the tribe of Marraihan and Bar Tarri which are the Habr Maqdi, and the people of Jawatir: they were under the command of the wazir ‘Addoli

ثم قام بتقسيم قوته إلى ثلاث فرق. الأول يتألف من شعبسيم ، قبيلة مرّيحان وبار تاري وهم هبر مقدي ، و أهل الجواطر: كانوا تحت إمرة وزير ا.العدولي.

He mentions Al-Bartirri/Bar Tirri or and some other without the name Soomaal as well. He also mentions Gedaya with Girri/Geri as Gedeya Girri/Geri.

To me it all seems like he is just listing many different Somali clans. Mentions different individuals from different clans including from Gatuur and Balow and the malasai as people of sim. What is Sim? an ethnic marker perhaps

Also i do really believe Harla are Darood Kombe honestly based on the different evidences. It makes sense as well. Also like i have shown Afar are never mentioned anywhere where the Harla historically lived or even as a part of Adal. They are mentioned as Danakil and as a seperate group & Kingdom further north allied with Abyssinia and only Dobba further north fought against abyssinia seperately from Adal in an independant struggle but got subdued

Shown it on this post: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?23810-Asia-in-the-Horn-The-Indian-Ocean-trade-in-Somaliland&p=772773#post772773

It's only being argued against it because it's being said they are from Darood instead of Isaaq.

drobbah
05-22-2021, 04:41 PM
Habar Makdi & Habar Magaadle are mentioned separately as two different tribes in the older Egyptian version.Perhaps you are right that the Habar Makdi mentioned is a Samarone sub clan but you need better evidence to back your claim since current clan distribution is irrelevant (Marexaan is a good example) and Maqdi (with arabic qaaf not kaaf) sounds nothing like Makadoor.While Shihabudeen has a good record of writing down Somali clan names as we know them in Somali today like Geri,Harti,Habar Magaadle,Hawiye etc.

I think Habar Maqdi is just another extinct tribe mentioned by the chronicler like Jairan & Mazzar

drobbah
05-22-2021, 05:16 PM
The leader of this Habar Maqdi clan was Garaad Dawit who arrived with 50 cavalry and 500 infantry.In comparison to the leader of the Habar Magaadle Axmed Gurey ibn Hussein As-Somali who brought 100 cavalry and 1000 infantry.Habar Magaadle it seems brought the largest armed forces from a single clan although if you add up all the Daroods they are probably the bulk of the Somali army.Which makes sense why the Gerri leader was made the leader of the entire Somali division besides his personal and family relationship with the Imam

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EWzmquNXQAIgide?format=png&name=900x900

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EWzm3imWoAIpl5z?format=png&name=900x900

Mirix
05-22-2021, 05:28 PM
think my case has been made, you have provided zero evidence of Futuh discussing your mythical Soomaal strawman construct. On the other hand, I have detailed how 1) Arabs, Somalis, Tigrey and Harla were discussed in the text as distinct groups, 2) provided direct quotations (that you claimed were not from the original text) listing sub-groupings of Harla which the book juxtaposes against Somalis to further make the distinction between them clear and 3) provided evidence from Somali language sources detailing how Harla are not Somali.

You are just clutching at semantics, and misusing sources that clearly contradict the view you are trying to push. I think discussion on this issue is over.

Btw, Yabarre being linked to Habar Magaadleh is actually a direct quote from the manuscript of Futuh which I believe Drobbah quoted on a previous page, it literally states: "... and the Yabarre are Habar Magaadleh".

Some more mental gymnastics . Tell me more more about the so called Malasai is tribe again. Maybe that twitter account will pull an un sourced text to prove how they are Habar Magadle. And you showed no sources for the claim of Harla not being , you wrote up something up in Somali about them being Afar and left it


Lastly, a quick Google search produced this link for the King Saud manuscript, if you were unable to find the copy yourself you probably should have asked here first before making the condescending statement above.

Its the Ramzy's Egyptian egyptian copy i was talking about It literally says on the right side of the page it's a copy from the Egyptian house of books and not the original manuscript.

In all seriousness, i am more concerned with accuracy , wether its Habr Maqdi or Habr Magadle matters not. It just makes more sense for it be a western clan.


I am not married to the thought they were Afar, this is all speculation given that the Futuh text did not specify the origins of Harla (just like it did not specify the origins of Somalis). But the text is clear cut that Somalis and Harla were two distinct groups, and that each had its own sub-groupings and clans.

I would caution against simply looking at a listing of Afar tribal names, as the dynamics of their sub-groupings may well be different from what is indicated in the Futuh text, e.g. no modern listing of Somali tribal names would include a reference to Habar Magaadle for instance, but would instead list constituents subclans who are now large enough to stand alone (i.e. Habar Awal, Arab, Garxajis, Ayuub). So lets not discount the Afar altogether just yet.

Hilarious on several pages its being argued they were Afar so strongly now its not being married to the idea.. Then copied/wrote up in Somali how they were Afar. Them being Assimilated by Afar and Oromo that i agree with on the part of Awale. Oromos assimilated bunch of different clans some i can actually give you breakdown for if you want. And refrences for it. Same with some Afar, It's leap of a mental gymnastics to say they were by Somalis , when Somalis are devoid of assimilation practices(especially north/westerners) and are obsessed lineal purity. You need real demonstratable evidence to support this idea.

It's totally reasonable to count out Afar because they are not mentioned to be involved, where they are mentioned is further north seperately.

From the text i have shown from Futuh. You can freely verify this , it really says Harla is among/from the Somali tribes.


There upon the emir Husain bin Abu Bakr al-Gaturl arose and said to the imam Ahmad, ‘This will never happen. If they want war. then we will assemble our armies from the people of Sim and from the Somali tribes: the tribe of Girri, the tribe of Habr Maqdi, the tribe of Harla, for our armies have been dispersed. How can we do as they wish? We shall not surrender the country to them.’

هناك على الأمير الحسين بن أبي بكر الجتورل قام وقال للإمام أحمد: هذا لن يحدث. إذا كانوا يريدون الحرب. ثم ث: ج سيجمع جيوشنا من أهل سيم و [ب] من القبائل الصومالية: قبيلة جيري ، قبيلة هبر مقدي ، قبيلة هارلا [/ ب] ، لأن جيوشنا مشتتة. كيف يمكننا أن نفعل ما يحلو لهم؟ لن نسلم البلد لهم.


And besides this look through all the refrences to people of Sim in that text as well and Zarba. It doesn't really specify origins at all or make any ethnic distinctions. It's actually kinda vague in some sense.

lavrok
05-22-2021, 05:35 PM
The leader of this Habar Maqdi clan was Garaad Dawit who arrived with 50 cavalry and 500 infantry.In comparison to the leader of the Habar Magaadle Axmed Gurey ibn Hussein As-Somali who brought 100 cavalry and 1000 infantry.Habar Magaadle it seems brought the largest armed forces from a single clan although if you add up all the Daroods they are probably the bulk of the Somali army.Which makes sense why the Gerri leader was made the leader of the entire Somali division besides his personal and family relationship with the Imam

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EWzmquNXQAIgide?format=png&name=900x900

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EWzm3imWoAIpl5z?format=png&name=900x900

Another interesting tidbit which further illustrates the distinction made between Somali and Harla is found in the first manuscript image you posted:

"فبعد ذلك وصل المهرة والشريف محمد الى الامام فأكرمهم على سير الجهاد. ثم ارسل الى جميع الجهات من الصومال وقبائل الحرلة "

"After that, the Mehri and Sharif Muhammad arrived at the Imam and he honoured them for the conduct of the jihad. Then he sent [messengers] to all directions of Somali and the Harla tribes".

The author is clearly distinguishing between Mahra, Somali and Harla enlisting in the Imam's army. I realise I am beating a dead horse at this stage, but examples from the Futuh text in which Somalis and Harla are described as two separate groups are so abundant.

lavrok
05-22-2021, 05:46 PM
Its the Ramzy's Egyptian egyptian copy i was talking about It literally says on the left side of the page it's a copy from the Egyptian house of books and not the original manuscript.




Are you making up sources now? There is no such thing as "the Ramzy's Egyptian egyptian copy".

The linked source is an authentic copy of Futuh Al Habash, in fact it is the oldest manuscript copy available to us:

https://makhtota.ksu.edu.sa/Images/Makhtotah%20350/DSC00003.JPG

You can clearly see from the first page that the title is Futuh Al Habasha, authored by Shihab Al Din Ahmad bin AbdilQadir bin Salem [aka Arab Faqih]. The date on this copy is 1227 Hijri.


Hilarious on several pages its being argued they were Afar so strongly now its not being married to the idea.. Then copied/wrote up in Somali how they were Afar.

I deal with what is present in the sources. If you can not read Somali you can use Google Translate to get the gist of what is being said, but in short Harla as described in the Futuh text are not a Somali group.

Mirix
05-22-2021, 05:48 PM
Another interesting tidbit which further illustrates the distinction made between Somali and Harla is found in the first manuscript image you posted:

"فبعد ذلك وصل المهرة والشريف محمد الى الامام فأكرمهم على سير الجهاد. ثم ارسل الى جميع الجهات من الصومال وقبائل الحرلة "

"After that, the Mehri and Sharif Muhammad arrived at the Imam and he honoured them for the conduct of the jihad. Then he sent [messengers] to all directions of Somali and the Harla tribes".

The author is clearly distinguishing between Mahra, Somali and Harla enlisting in the Imam's army. I realise I am beating a dead horse at this stage, but examples from the Futuh text in which Somalis and Harla are described as two separate groups are so abundant.


You mean in this text where he sends messages to districts of Somalis in which he includes Harla among those tribes?


[The Somali tribes gather for the jihad ]

[القبائل الصومالية تتجمع للجهاد]

It was after this that the Mahra party and the sharif Muhammad reached the imam who feted their coming on account of the jihad ; and then he sent to all the districts of the Somalis and to the tribes of Harla. Then all the tribes rose up.

بعد ذلك وصل حزب المهرة والشريف محمد إلى الإمام الذي يكرّم مجيئهم بسبب الجهاد. ثم أرسل إلى كل مقاطعات الصوماليين وإلى قبائل هارلا. ثم قامت كل القبائل


The first tribe to come up was the Habr Maqdi with their lord Garad Dawit, fifty knights and five-hundred foot-soldiers. After them the Marraihan came up, with their lord Ahmad bin Hirabu, with eighty knights and seven-hundred foot-soldiers. After them came up the Gorgorah with Garad 'Abd their chieftain, and thirty knights and one-thousand foot-soldiers.


أول قبيلة صعدت كانت هبر مقدي مع سيدهم جاراد داويت ، خمسون فارساً وخمسمائة جندي راجل. وبعدهم صعد مروان مع سيدهم أحمد بن حيرابو ومعهم ثمانون فارساً وسبعمائة راجل. وبعدهم صعدوا الجرجورة ومعه جاراد عبد زعيمهم وثلاثون فارسا وألف راجل.

Then the tribe of Girri came up, with their chieftain Garad Mattan along with eighty knights and one-thousand foot-soldiers. In the same way the tribe of Zarba came up from Harla with their lord the sultan Muhammad with twenty knights and three-hundred foot-soldiers. The tribes assembled - all of them volunteers and on good terms with one another. The number of the horses in readiness was around five-hundred, and there were twelve-thousand foot-soldiers, not to mention those who carried the provisions and other things besides.


ثم صعدت قبيلة جيري مع زعيمهم جاراد متان وثمانين فارسا وألف جندي. وبنفس الطريقة جاءت قبيلة الزربا من هارلا مع سيدهم السلطان محمد بعشرين فارساً وثلاثمائة راجل. تجمعت القبائل - كلهم ​​متطوعون وعلى علاقة طيبة مع بعضهم البعض. كان عدد الخيول الجاهزة حوالي خمسمائة ، وكان هناك اثنا عشر ألفًا راجلًا ، ناهيك عن من حمل المؤن وما إلى ذلك.

and then in this text where he assembles the army again and it includes harla among/from the Somali tribes:


There upon the emir Husain bin Abu Bakr al-Gaturl arose and said to the imam Ahmad, ‘This will never happen. If they want war. then we will assemble our armies from the people of Sim and from the Somali tribes: the tribe of Girri, the tribe of Habr Maqdi, the tribe of Harla, for our armies have been dispersed. How can we do as they wish? We shall not surrender the country to them.’

هناك على الأمير الحسين بن أبي بكر الجتورل قام وقال للإمام أحمد: هذا لن يحدث. إذا كانوا يريدون الحرب. ثم ث: ج سيجمع جيوشنا من أهل سيم و [ب] من القبائل الصومالية: قبيلة جيري ، قبيلة هبر مقدي ، قبيلة هارلا [/ ب] ، لأن جيوشنا مشتتة. كيف يمكننا أن نفعل ما يحلو لهم؟ لن نسلم البلد لهم.


Yeah i can clearly see abundant distinctions being made here.

Mirix
05-22-2021, 05:59 PM
Are you making up sources now? There is no such thing as "the Ramzy's Egyptian egyptian copy".

The linked source is an authentic copy of Futuh Al Habash, in fact it is the oldest manuscript copy available to us:

https://makhtota.ksu.edu.sa/Images/Makhtotah%20350/DSC00003.JPG

You can clearly see from the first page that the title is Futuh Al Habasha, authored by Shihab Al Din Ahmad bin AbdilQadir bin Salem [aka Arab Faqih]. The date on this copy is 1227 Hijri.



I deal with what is present in the sources. If you can not read Somali you can use Google Translate to get the gist of what is being said, but in short Harla as described in the Futuh text are not a Somali group.

On the right side of the page

Category No: 962 / b. P
The author: Arab Fakih, Ahmed bin Abdul Qadir
General number: 350
Author date: 940 AH
References: Al- Alam 4 Edition 1: 153, The Egyptian House of Books 5: 129
Description: Good copy, tabular and paragraph headers red
Physical Description: Cm 1 (128 BC), 21 o'clock; 24 x 17.5 cm
Topic: 1 - Abyssinia
Referrals: X Al-Naskh, d- Fattuh Abyssinia, e- Fatuhat Abyssinia
Reproducer Name: Ibrahim, Muhammad
Copy Date: 1227 AH (1812)

Not the original manuscript but the Egyptian copy i spoke about. I can prefectly read Somali, but it's some nonsense wrote up or copied with no verfiable source to it.

lavrok
05-22-2021, 06:15 PM
On the right side of the page

Category No: 962 / b. P
The author: Arab Fakih, Ahmed bin Abdul Qadir
General number: 350
Author date: 940 AH
References: Al- Alam 4 Edition 1: 153, The Egyptian House of Books 5: 129
Description: Good copy, tabular and paragraph headers red
Physical Description: Cm 1 (128 BC), 21 o'clock; 24 x 17.5 cm
Topic: 1 - Abyssinia
Referrals: X Al-Naskh, d- Fattuh Abyssinia, e- Fatuhat Abyssinia
Reproducer Name: Ibrahim, Muhammad
Copy Date: 1227 AH (1812)

Not the original manuscript but the Egyptian copy i spoke about. I can prefectly read Somali, but it's some nonsense wrote up or copied with no verfiable source to it.


The text above has no reference to "Ramzy's Egyptian copy", you just made that name up.

The linked manuscript is the oldest manuscript copy available, no one claimed it was the original manuscript, another strawman you just made up.

"The oldest reference to Futuh is the manuscript copy stored at King Saud university which is dated 1811,"

Mirix
05-22-2021, 06:49 PM
The text above has no reference to "Ramzy's Egyptian copy", you just made that name up.

The linked manuscript is the oldest manuscript copy available, no one claimed it was the original manuscript, another strawman you just made up.

"The oldest reference to Futuh is the manuscript copy stored at King Saud university which is dated 1811,"


Let me explain. The point i am making is that it's a copy from the 1800's from a Egyptian which we have to take in account was handwrittenly copied and enhanced since he even added 3 dots, which is unusual and not typical in Arabic. This is the problem but it more or less says Habr Maqdi in actuality.

The fact is He wrote the Habr Maqadi cursive which makes people believe it's Habr Magaadle.

There is even a Yaa added , even in the Arabic history of Gujarat, now he wants us to believe there's a Laam in between.

http://i.imgur.com/5NHHSyB.jpg"]http://i.imgur.com/5NHHSyB.jpg
= Xabr Maqadi (In the Arabic history of Gujarat)

Now lets take a look at the copy you have shown.

http://i.imgur.com/5jsLL6c.jpg = Habr Maqadi

http://i.imgur.com/qdNGkUI.jpg = Habr Maqadi

http://i.imgur.com/gZvpvKn.jpg = Habr Maqadi

In all the cases its' mentioned it says Habr Maqadi

The place in whicht that twitter user tries to beg it being Habr Maqaadle is in which is just cursive for Habr Magadi. It actually shows how this handwritten copy is not the original document. The Egyptian duplicator even enhanced the work , which is evident since he added 3 dots. For Egyptians g/q/k used interchangeably.

http://i.imgur.com/znpMv05.jpg

ilaa imaam qabiila habar magadi ma'a sayidahum wa muqadimahum ahmed geri

drobbah
05-22-2021, 07:23 PM
It literally says هبر مقادلي not مقدي in the last photo you posted smh.I don't know if you know Arabic but it's very clear whenever the futuh mentions Ahmed Gurey that the manuscript uses the clan name Habar Magaadle.Also I don't know what you mean that Egyptians use different letters interchangeably, this book is written in Classical Arabic and there's no g sound in classical Arabic hence the three dots under ج yet Arab Faqih continues to write Habar maqdi without Habar Makador mentioned anywhere in the Futuh.You clearly don't know classical Arabic if you think people used ق or ك interchangeably.

44767

Kali
05-22-2021, 07:45 PM
Let me explain. The point i am making is that it's a copy from the 1800's from a Egyptian which we have to take in account was handwrittenly copied and enhanced since he even added 3 dots, which is unusual and not typical in Arabic. This is the problem but it more or less says Habr Maqdi in actuality.

The fact is He wrote the Habr Maqadi cursive which makes people believe it's Habr Magaadle.

There is even a Yaa added , even in the Arabic history of Gujarat, now he wants us to believe there's a Laam in between.

http://i.imgur.com/5NHHSyB.jpg"]http://i.imgur.com/5NHHSyB.jpg
= Xabr Maqadi (In the Arabic history of Gujarat)

Now lets take a look at the copy you have shown.

http://i.imgur.com/5jsLL6c.jpg = Habr Maqadi

http://i.imgur.com/qdNGkUI.jpg = Habr Maqadi

http://i.imgur.com/gZvpvKn.jpg = Habr Maqadi

In all the cases its' mentioned it says Habr Maqadi

The place in whicht that twitter user tries to beg it being Habr Maqaadle is in which is just cursive for Habr Magadi. It actually shows how this handwritten copy is not the original document. The Egyptian duplicator even enhanced the work , which is evident since he added 3 dots. For Egyptians g/q/k used interchangeably.

http://i.imgur.com/znpMv05.jpg

ilaa imaam qabiila habar magadi ma'a sayidahum wa muqadimahum ahmed geri

I haven't read the book so I'm not interjecting myself into this discussion. My only observation is it is obvious you are not familiar with the arabic language or writing system.

I don't understand why you chose to discard the letter Lam (ل)? The actual arabic letters are م ج د ل ي‎ put them together you get مَـجَـد لي‎. The letters in Egnlish M(miim) G (jiim) (Alif or kasra for the letter A on top of jiim) D (dal) Y/i (yaa). MGADLY

drobbah
05-22-2021, 07:49 PM
The leader of this Habar Maqdi clan was Garaad Dawit who arrived with 50 cavalry and 500 infantry.In comparison to the leader of the Habar Magaadle Axmed Gurey ibn Hussein As-Somali who brought 100 cavalry and 1000 infantry.Habar Magaadle it seems brought the largest armed forces from a single clan although if you add up all the Daroods they are probably the bulk of the Somali army.Which makes sense why the Gerri leader was made the leader of the entire Somali division besides his personal and family relationship with the Imam

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EWzmquNXQAIgide?format=png&name=900x900

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EWzm3imWoAIpl5z?format=png&name=900x900

@Mirix please explain why they mention two different leaders with different amount of forces in these texts.If you can read and understand Arabic then you shouldn't have a problem.As you can see terms like Garaad,Gurey or Gerri (Darood tribe) use the the three dots under the ج
There's no incentive for the person who wrote this manuscript (which is the oldest surviving arabic version) to include Habar Magaadle.There's no Isaaq conspiracy here brother

و كان اول قبيلة طلعت هبر مقدي مع سيديهم الجراد طوّيد و هم خمسين فرسان و خمس مية رجال

و قبائل الصومال قبيلة هبر مَجَادْلَي قبيلة احمد جُرَيْ معهم ميتين فرسان و الفين رجال


I made a mistake earlier in translating the Habar Magaadle numbers.It was actually 200 cavalry and 2000 infantry.The way they spell back then is different from now

He writes ًالفي and ميتا instead of ألفين او ميتين

Mirix
05-22-2021, 08:07 PM
Regardless it someone elses handwritten copy, so it can be misconstrued in the writting which is what i am saying.

The Manuscripts obtained by Rene Basset and the section on Futuh Al Habash in the History of Gujarat, written fairly shortly after the end of the conflict, do not differentiate between Ahmed Bin Girri and the Habar Maqdi/Habar Magadle. Or write it as Habr Magadle. Nor does the Arabic manuscript obtained by General Gordon. So in alll these disparate versions they don't mention or spell what this one Egyptian author may have spelled in the 19th century copied hand writting.

I concede that what clan Habr Maqdi was a part of is hard to say, but i bet they were a western clan.

lavrok
05-22-2021, 09:12 PM
Regardless it someone elses handwritten copy, so it can be misconstrued in the writting which is what i am saying.

The Manuscripts obtained by Rene Basset and the section on Futuh Al Habash in the History of Gujarat, written fairly shortly after the end of the conflict, do not differentiate between Ahmed Bin Girri and the Habar Maqdi/Habar Magadle. Or write it as Habr Magadle. Nor does the Arabic manuscript obtained by General Gordon. So in alll these disparate versions they don't mention or spell what this one Egyptian author may have spelled in the 19th century copied hand writting.

I concede that what clan Habr Maqdi was a part of is hard to say, but i bet they were a western clan.

No, evidently it can not be misconstrued at all due to the lengths to which the manuscript is careful to print the Somali names exactly like they are pronounced in Somali.

Not only is it the oldest copy available, it is also the one with the most correct spelling form for Somali names, as an example the Gujarat copy you cited above prints the name Xabr Maqda.

Give it up man, at some point you've got to admit you were wrong.

You still did not explain what "Ramzy's Egyptian copy" actually is, you made that up out of thin air.

Mirix
05-22-2021, 10:10 PM
No, evidently it can not be misconstrued at all due to the lengths to which the manuscript is careful to print the Somali names exactly like they are pronounced in Somali.

Not only is it the oldest copy available, it is also the one with the most correct spelling form for Somali names, as an example the Gujarat copy you cited above prints the name Xabr Maqda.

Give it up man, at some point you've got to admit you were wrong.

You still did not explain what "Ramzy's Egyptian copy" actually is, you made that up out of thin air.

It most certaintly can be misconstrued in the hand writing. It's not the original manuscript. It is a copy made by a man called Mahamad Ibrahim in 1812 and it was first published in egypt. I didn't make that up. In all the other manuscripts obtained by different disparate versions by different people and the oldest being the Gujarat version in arabic from 17th century that was reprinted. Or the original manuscript obtained by Gordon.

None makes any mentions that the egyptian one makes. They more or less record the same.

Awale
05-22-2021, 10:28 PM
Habr Maqdi is Habar Maqdi (Makadi)/Makadur is a Dir clan. A Gadabursi clan to be more exact. Seems as straight forward as can be. It also makes more sense because from the map you shown they are more of a western clan. Futuh also mentions battle taking place in places like Awbube which is a Gadabursi country.

Oh, okay. Thanks for pointing that out.


I agree though Futuh just lists different Qabils in the ones you mentioned above. Zarba is sometimes bunched with somali and other times its with Harla.

When is Zarba listed with Somalis? I can't find that.


And he says at one point Futuh proceeds to list Harla among the Somali clan: Like in this, which straight from the text no bs.

This is true and I don't know what to make of it. He does suddenly list the Harla as among the Somali tribes even though in other texts he makes them sound a separate entity from the other Somali tribes which is confusing stuff.


He list Al-Bartirri without the name Soomaal as well.

This is true. I saw the name as so obvious and also knew this clan was known to live in the area and saw how they were listed with other Somali tribes and put two and two together but, in reality, they are never called a Somali tribe:


Then he split his force into three divisions. The first consisted of the people of Sim, the tribe of Marraihan and Bar Tarri which are the Habr Maqdi, and the people of Jawatir: they were under the command of the wazir ‘Addoli.

Just that they are among the people of Sim and under the Wazir 'Addoli.


I am not married to the thought they were Afar, this is all speculation given that the Futuh text did not specify the origins of Harla (just like it did not specify the origins of Somalis). But the text is clear cut that Somalis and Harla were two distinct groups, and that each had its own sub-groupings and clans.

I would caution against simply looking at a listing of Afar tribal names, as the dynamics of their sub-groupings may well be different from what is indicated in the Futuh text, e.g. no modern listing of Somali tribal names would include a reference to Habar Magaadle for instance, but would instead list constituents subclans who are now large enough to stand alone (i.e. Habar Awal, Arab, Garxajis, Ayuub). So lets not discount the Afar altogether just yet.

I feel you and don't want to totally count them out just yet either but thing is that those Harla clans just don't seem to have any sort of Afar etymology to them. It's not just the absence of such tribal names among the Afar but also that Afar tribal names sound totally different but who knows. There is also the fact their region is mentioned and never once in relation to the Harla and seemingly as just a place where the Muslims camp for a time:


The storyteller, may the Most High God have mercy upon him, says: The Muslims, for their part, marched from the land of Watmat, heading for the land of Ayfars. Separating Watmat and Ayfars was a mighty river called ‘Arah. There were two routes for crossing the river, a lower one well known to all the people, and an upper one known to but a few. When the Muslims sought to cross over to the land of Ayfars, they took the lower route but when they reachcd it. they encountered a detachment of the infidels who were holding it. It was the time of the afternoon prayer. The Muslims remained where they were, and the infidels likewise held their positions. One of the Muslims. Haidar by name, said to the imam:‘I will guide you by an upper route different from this one.’

...

The storyteller, may God have mercy upon him, says: then the imam went down into the land of Ayfars where he pitched his tent. They took a tent that day as booty, and an uncountable number of mules. Some of them even took as many as thirty mules, while others took around one-hundred horses. The numbers of dead and captives were so great and the Abyssinians were so overwhelmed by despair, that one Muslim took ten infidels captive. Some of them spent the night chasing the idol-worshippers through every narrow pass, and as that night was extremely cold, a large number of Muslims died.

I don't know but it seems Mirix might be correct on this point. They were probably always a more north lying group in the Danakil desert (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danakil_Desert) and not really involved much in places like Hararghe, Bale and so forth.

One group I feel like is neglected in all these discussions though are Sidamics. It seems to me like they were once the dominant entity in Bale before the Oromo expansions just from doing some reading up and a lot of the southern Ethiosemitic languages like Harari and Gurage actually have a confirmed Sidamic substratum. It seems like Sidamics were once neighboring and making contact with Somalis at least as far eastwards as Bale, possibly even Hararghe before they were absorbed by expanding Oromos. Some Sidamic subgroups are outright named in the Futuh like the Gedeo and Hadiya as Muslims with their own provinces and I suspect some of the other tribes mentioned are also of their lot.

lavrok
05-22-2021, 11:04 PM
It most certaintly can be misconstrued in the hand writing. It's not the original manuscript. It is a copy made by a man called Mahamad Ibrahim in 1812 and it was first published in egypt. I didn't make that up. In all the other manuscripts obtained by different disparate versions by different people and the oldest being the Gujarat version in arabic from 17th century that was reprinted. Or the original manuscript obtained by Gordon.

None makes any mentions that the egyptian one makes. They more or less record the same.

This is a silly argument. You can not discard the oldest manuscript copy because it disproves your claims.

You claimed there is a "Ramzy Egyptian manuscript", and we are still waiting for you to substantiate that claim:


Its the Ramzy's Egyptian egyptian copy i was talking about It


Ramzy's Egyptian copy that differentiates between Habar Magaadle and Habar Maqdi was first published

Who is Ramzy and why is he relevant to this discussion?

And the text can not be misconstrued, unless you find reading Arabic challenging, in which case you are not the intended audience of Futuh Al Habash's Arabic copy.

Awale
05-22-2021, 11:23 PM
The leader of this Habar Maqdi clan was Garaad Dawit who arrived with 50 cavalry and 500 infantry.In comparison to the leader of the Habar Magaadle Axmed Gurey ibn Hussein As-Somali who brought 100 cavalry and 1000 infantry.Habar Magaadle it seems brought the largest armed forces from a single clan although if you add up all the Daroods they are probably the bulk of the Somali army.Which makes sense why the Gerri leader was made the leader of the entire Somali division besides his personal and family relationship with the Imam

I caught this even in the English translation. It was confusing stuff why two different chieftains are mentioned:


[The Somali tribes gather for the jihad ]

It was after this that the Mahra party and the sharif Muhammad reached the imam who feted their coming on account of the jihad ; and then he sent to all the districts of the Somalis and to the tribes of Harla. Then all the tribes rose up.

The first tribe to come up was the Habr Maqdi with their lord Garad Dawit, fifty knights and five-hundred foot-soldiers. After them the Marraihan came up, with their lord Ahmad bin Hirabu, with eighty knights and seven-hundred foot-soldiers. After them came up the Gorgorah with Garad 'Abd their chieftain, and thirty knights and one-thousand foot-soldiers.

The way they're being mentioned closely with the Gurgura tells me this is probably the Dir subclan. And then this is the Isaaq group:


The first of the tribes to reach the imam was Habr Maqdi with their lord and chieftain Ahmad Girri bin Husain, the Somali. They encampcd in a placc called Qasa in the heights above the valley of Harar. They showed off their equipment and their weapons, and paraded their horses. They were anights, and what knights! And they were foot-soldiers; and what foot- soldiers! The imam rejoiced at their arrival exceedingly. They met the imam :ace to face, and he welcomed them with the warmest of welcomes. He gave them gifts of apparel, and provisions, and treated them graciously, garbing Their chieftain, Ahmad Girri, in particularly exquisite clothing.

But I must correct something Lavrok said when he thanked me for finding that tweet (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?23810-Asia-in-the-Horn-The-Indian-Ocean-trade-in-Somaliland&p=772957&viewfull=1#post772957) which is that the Habar Magaadle were the first qabil to respond to the Imam (answer the call to Jihad). That is not true by the looks of it. That was the Habar Maqdi with the Garad Dawit. Ahmed Gurey's lot were the first to reach Harar in a different instance. But the way he treats their chieftain might fit with what that tweet's source claims about their being a relation between the Habar Magaadle and the Imam. Makes you wonder why Arab Faqih didn't mention this though.

Mirix
05-22-2021, 11:29 PM
This is a silly argument. You can not discard the oldest manuscript copy because it disproves your claims.

You claimed there is a "Ramzy Egyptian manuscript", and we are still waiting for you to substantiate that claim:





Who is Ramzy and why is he relevant to this discussion?

And the text can not be misconstrued, unless you find reading Arabic challenging, in which case you are not the intended audience of Futuh Al Habash's Arabic copy.

Clearly not a silly argument since you are trying to shift the goal post.

Two legitimate old manuscripts among others all record more or less the same thing, whereas one in a handwritten copy that can be misconstrued. Have your pick?

I think ill take the ones that agree with eachother.

Mirix
05-22-2021, 11:30 PM
Oh, okay. Thanks for pointing that out.



When is Zarba listed with Somalis? I can't find that.

Both in the passage of ''Somali tribes gather for Jihad" and the "Somali Tribes reach Harar". They are usually mentioned along with them. Idk



This is true and I don't know what to make of it. He does suddenly list the Harla as among the Somali tribes even though in other texts he makes them sound a separate entity from the other Somali tribes which is confusing stuff.



This is true. I saw the name as so obvious and also knew this clan was known to live in the area and saw how they were listed with other Somali tribes and put two and two together but, in reality, they are never called a Somali tribe:



Just that they are among the people of Sim and under the Wazir 'Addoli.

You see what i mean? Did you see how it also says Gidaya Girri. What do you think people of Sim means? Does he ever explain it?


I feel you and don't want to totally count them out just yet either but thing is that those Harla clans just don't seem to have any sort of Afar etymology to them. It's not just the absence of such tribal names among the Afar but also that Afar tribal names sound totally different but who knows. There is also the fact their region is mentioned and never once in relation to the Harla and seemingly as just a place where the Muslims camp for a time:



I don't know but it seems Mirix might be correct on this point. They were probably always a more north lying group in the Danakil desert (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danakil_Desert) and not really involved much in places like Hararghe, Bale and so forth.


I also don't get where I'M Lewis infers Afar living Zeila and i have seen other sources say the same. But when i look for refrence or documentation of their actualy prescence there i don't find it and i don't know what they base it on and it also never mentioned by Burton that any of them lived there either. To me it seems the same Dir clans that lived there today live there then, in the same distribution recorded in the 1876 The Universal Geography: Earth and Its Inhabitants - Volum 10 (books.google.ca/books?hl=no&id=ZPdEAQAAMAAJ&dq=The+Earth+and+its+Inhabitants+The+Universal+Geo graphy+Vol.+X.+North-east+Africa&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=zeila+issa)

It's like you said about Mahfuz as never mentioned as being a ruler of Zeila in Futuh, it was somebody else.

Awale
05-23-2021, 12:45 AM
Both in the passage of ''Somali tribes gather for Jihad" and the "Somali Tribes reach Harar". They are usually mentioned along with them. Idk

I see. I didn't think of that. Might be why this secondary source (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vEZV4gNKTyTkOa9jt9TVZo0SxXACXk-E/view?usp=sharing) assumes the Zarba and their chieftain are Somali. I couldn't for the life of me grasp how they came to that conclusion. But now it makes sense:


[The Somali tribes reach Harar]

The first of the tribes to reach the imam was Habr Maqdi with their lord and chieftain Ahmad Girri bin Husain, the Somali. They encampcd in a placc called Qasa in the heights above the valley of Harar. They showed off their equipment and their weapons, and paraded their horses. They were knights, and what knights! And they were foot-soldiers; and what foot- soldiers! The imam rejoiced at their arrival exceedingly. They met the imam :ace to face, and he welcomed them with the warmest of welcomes. He gave them gifts of apparel, and provisions, and treated them graciously, garbing Their chieftain, Ahmad Girri, in particularly exquisite clothing.

After them it w'as the tribe of Girri who came up. Their chieftain was Mattan bin ‘Utman bin Kaled, the Somali. They showed off their weaponry and armour, paraded their horses and had their bows slung sash-like over their shoulders as they met the imam face to face. He commanded them then to go ahead to a place callcd Sim. Their chieftain had brought with him his wife, Fardusa, the sister of the imam Ahmad. And he set out ahead, he and his army.

Then the tribe of Zarba came up after them. Their chieftain was the sultan Muhammad, son of the paternal aunt of the imam. With him were one-thousand-and-sixty notable infantry, and forty knights. The imam made them welcome and showed them his favour. He [sultan Muhammad] resided at Harar. The imam was exceedingly delighted at this and gave thanks to the Most High God.

The army camped around the city, with each tribe being kept apart from the others. The tribe of the Marraihan was, however, wavering. Their chieftain was a man fond of intrigue and procrastination. Extremely wily, he loved double-dealing and swindles. The imam organised some of his soldiers and went to the Marraihan and confronted Hirabu and his tribe and said to him, ‘Why are you lagging behind in coming on the jihad. Hirabu complained about his plight, and excused himself on the grounds of his poverty-stricken state.

The imam accepted his excuse, and then said to him, 'But no good will come to you from just wishing [that things will improve]’. Thereupon Hirabu appointed his nephew to command the Marraihan and they rallied around the imam - ninety cavalry and more than seven-hundred foot- soldiers - with Hirabu bringing up the rear. The imam went back to his city of Harar, taking the tribe of Marraihan with him.

Thereupon the imam made preparations for Abyssinia, for the jihad for the sake of the Most High God. The imam equipped his soldiers and his army and all the tribes. He sold the gold and silver jewellery of his wives, and the furnishings of his house in order to provide the tribes and the soldiers with weapons of war, keeping nothing back for himself - may God forgive him, for he hoped only for the reward held out by the Most High God, the Gracious One, and sought from God that he might make him dwell in the paradise of delights, and bless him with the hour/s with the intensely white and deep black eyes, and enfold him in His never-ending Favour.

This whole section is supposed to be about the Somali tribes reaching Harar so why insert the Zarba if they are non-Somali? It makes zero sense. However there is the discrepancy that he doesn't call their chieftain "the Somali" like the others but this might be why secondary sources I've seen claim the Zarba are a Somali tribe.


You see what i mean? Did you see how it also says Gidaya Girri. What do you think people of Sim means? Does he ever explain it?

Yes, I saw that with Gidaya which is weird. But Gidaya has to correspond to the Gedeo people so I dunno what to make of that. And it seems he does, no?


At that time the imam assembled his forccs and called up his army. He tied a white standard to a spear, and entrusted it to the wazir ‘Addoli and the people of Sim rallied to him,ls' from the tribe of the Somalis the Habr Maqdi, and the tribe of Ahmad Girri, and with them two-hundred cavalry and two- thousand infantry like savage lions.

Thereupon the emir Husain bin Abu Bakr al-Gaturl arose and said to the imam Ahmad, ‘This will never happen. If they want war. then w:c will assemble our armies from the people of Sim and from the Somali tribes: the tribe of Girri, the tribe of Habr Maqdi, the tribe of Harla, for our armies have been dispersed. How can we do as they wish? We shall not surrender the country to them.’

Then he split his force into three divisions. The first consisted of the people of Sim, the tribe of Marraihan and Bar Tarri which are the Habr Maqdi, and the people of Jawatir: they were under the command of the wazir ‘Addoli.

Everytime he mentions the people of sim he proceeds to list out Somali tribes and particularly always mentions the "Habar Maqdi" who in this context may mean the Habar Magaadle. So they're Somalis of a particular subregion.


I also don't get where I'M Lewis infers Afar living Zeila and i have seen other sources say the same. But when i look for refrence or documentation of their actualy prescence there i don't find it and i don't know what they base it on and it also never mentioned by Burton that any of them lived there either. To me it seems the same Dir clans that lived there today live there then, in the same distribution recorded in the 1876 The Universal Geography: Earth and Its Inhabitants - Volum 10

It's like you said about Mahfuz as never mentioned as being a ruler of Zeila in Futuh, it was somebody else.

Yeah it seems to me that a lot is made up or just odd in some secondary sources. I truly don't know where they get their inferences when the Futuh sometimes says no such thing. As for Burton and Zeila. He does mention trade goods like camel breeds coming from the Afars/Dankali but yes, I don't recall him mentioning Afar inhabitants. And on the note of Burton here is just one little quick quote where he mentions some of the tribes living around Harar when he visited:


The Gerad Adan was powerful, being the head of a tribe of cultivators, not split up, like the Bedouins,
into independent clans, and he thus exercises a direct influence upon the conterminous races. The
Girhi or “Giraffes” inhabiting these hills are, like most of the other settled Somal, a derivation from
Darud, and descended from Kombo. Despite the unmerciful persecutions of the Gallas, they gradually
migrated westwards from Makhar, their original nest, now number 5000 shields, possess about 180
villages, and are accounted the power paramount. Though friendly with the Habr Awal, the Girhi seldom
descend, unless compelled by want of pasture, into the plains.

The other inhabitants of these hills are the Gallas and the Somali clans of Berteri, Bursuk, Shaykhash,
Hawiyah, Usbayhan, Marayhan, and Abaskul.

Emboldened are all of the tribes mentioned in the Futuh as being in that same general vicinity. I added Habar Awal as a likely stand in for the Habar Magaadle. This was seriously one of the first things I noticed when I read Burton's book and looked back at the Futuh. Even some of the dynamics going on are very similar to what you see in the Futuh like how the Bartire in the 19th century are apparently intermarrying for generations with the Emirs of Harar and one of them is a prominent Wazir under the Emir:


The Berteri, who occupy the Gurays Range, south of, and limitrophe to, the Gallas, and thence extend
eastward to the Jigjiga hills, are estimated at 3000 shields. Of Darud origin, they own allegiance to the
Gerad Hirsi, and were, when I visited the country, on bad terms with the Girhi. The chief’s family has,
for several generations, been connected with the Amirs of Harar, and the caravan’s route to and from
Berberah lying through his country, makes him a useful friend and a dangerous foe. About the Gerad
Hirsi different reports were rife: some described him as cruel, violent, and avaricious; others spoke of
him as a godly and a prayerful person: all, however, agreed that he had sowed wild oats. In token of
repentance, he was fond of feeding Widads, and the Shaykh Jami of Harar was a frequent guest at his
kraal.


...

The Amir Ahmed’s health is infirm. Some attribute his weakness to a fall from a horse, others declare
him to have been poisoned by one of his wives.30 I judged him consumptive. Shortly after my departure
he was upon the point of death, and he afterwards sent for a physician to Aden. He has four wives. No.
1. is the daughter of the Gerad Hirsi; No. 2. a Sayyid woman of Harar; No. 3. an emancipated slave girl;
and No. 4. a daughter of Gerad Abd el Majid, one of his nobles. He has two sons, who will probably
never ascend the throne; one is an infant, the other is a boy now about five years old.

...

Shortly after arrival, I sent my Salam to one of the Ulema, Shaykh Jami of the Berteri Somal: he
accepted the excuse of ill health, and at once came to see me. This personage appeared in the form of a
little black man aged about forty, deeply pitted by small-pox, with a protruding brow, a tufty beard and
rather delicate features: his hands and feet were remarkably small. Married to a descendant of the Sherif
Yunis, he had acquired great reputation as an Alim or Savan, a peace-policy-man, and an ardent
Moslem. Though an imperfect Arabic scholar, he proved remarkably well read in the religious sciences,
and even the Meccans had, it was said, paid him the respect of kissing his hand during his pilgrimage. In
his second character, his success was not remarkable, the principal results being a spear-thrust in the
head, and being generally told to read his books and leave men alone. Yet he is always doing good
“lillah,” that is to say, gratis and for Allah’s sake: his pugnacity and bluntness—the prerogatives of the
“peaceful”—gave him some authority over the Amir, and he has often been employed on political
missions amongst the different chiefs.

Brings to mind the same sort of relationship the Geri Kombe (and possibly also the Habar Magaadle) have with the Imam if he really was a non-Somali. And some might disagree with me but I doubt the dynamics in the 16th century were much different which is to say that Somalis were the likely dominant inhabitants of the coastal towns and areas by the coast like Awdal even back then based on the accounts from people like Battuta and Umari and had a strong nomadic presence all over the place making them a huge threat to caravans, which they would be pivotal in managing anyway, if you earned their ire which is why whomever dominated in prominent hinterland towns like Harar, Somali or not, had to intermarry with Somali tribes and forge alliances with them.

Mirix
05-23-2021, 02:48 AM
Have you noticed how some sections of Gerri are now part of Afran Qollo from the beginning of the 19th century?


specifically a garad named Jibril, an Afran Qallo Oromo from the Gerhi clan. Barteri as well in the Babile as Warra Bartale

Also with Bursuk, and Karanle Hawiye. Some sections of them in Harar/Babile regions are now part of Afran Qollo Oromo as Warra Bersub (Burzuf, Bursuk) and Warra Karalle.

There are numerous other Warra's that i think are Somalis. Or are from other groups. I looked through a bunch


They should look through the clan and lineage history of Shawa,Harar/Babile Oromos and they may come to be surprised that many of them just like the resarch into Gabra Oromo revelead do not actually claim Oromo origins Ethnopolitics and Gabra origins (https://www.eth.mpg.de/pubs/wps/pdf/mpi-eth-working-paper-0103.pdf)


Collecting clan and lineage histories, I then found that the vast majority of the Gabra did not claim Oromo origins. Some did, and in the book resulting from this research (Schlee 1989) I also faithfully recorded those. Therefore, the vast majority of the Gabra must at one point of their history have undergone a language shift from a Somaloid language to Oromo. Some are also said to have had Samburu (Maa speakers) connections or to have yet other origins (Schlee 1989: 166, 170). But the bulk clearly derived from people who at one point spoke a language of the Somali cluster. This finding, surprising as it was against the background of assumed purely Oromo origins of the Gabra that had never been questioned by anyone, must have impressed people a lot.


He also found alot of Somali cultural influences and substratum in them. Oromo nationalists like Mohamed Hassen and others don't like hearing this. Günther Schlee got attacked by Oromo nationalists for his research and posted this paper as rebuttal to them.

farjanomar
05-23-2021, 04:36 AM
Interesting discussions!

About the Clans mentioned, I am surprised that major western Somali clans are missing like Ciise, Gadabuurse, and Ogaden. Was Ogaden a Western Clan those days? or they lived in the East like the Harti?

Did i miss, or only Gurgura and barsuk Dir are mentioned? Were Gadubuurse and Ciise mentioned?

farjanomar
05-23-2021, 05:16 AM
Also about the Harla origins, We can Y-Chromosome test the Ciise Harla, in the future, when possible. Then we can, once for all solve the Harla People's mysterious origins.

Many years back, used to work with 3 Ciisa at an Airport Rental car, and, one of them was Harla. We don't live in the same city anymore. I would have advised him to take 23andme test.

Are there any other known Somali Clan that has assimilated the Harla except the Ciisa?

drobbah
05-23-2021, 06:28 AM
Also about the Harla origins, We can Y-Chromosome test the Ciise Harla, in the future, when possible. Then we can, once for all solve the Harla People's mysterious origins.

Many years back, used to work with 3 Ciisa at an Airport Rental car, and, one of them was Harla. We don't live in the same city anymore. I would have advised him to take 23andme test.

Are there any other known Somali Clan that has assimilated the Harla except the Ciisa?
I think the vast majority of the medieval Harla ended up being absorbed by the Afran Qallo Oromos and perhaps some among specific Afars and the Hararis.Unless we get some medieval samples from Ethiopia or perhaps SL; I'm afraid we will never know much about these Harlas.

Awale
05-23-2021, 07:05 AM
Alright, saxiibs, I wanna address some stuff about the Imam's origins particularly the claim in this document (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vEZV4gNKTyTkOa9jt9TVZo0SxXACXk-E/view?usp=sharing) that makes a lot of mistakes in general that he is paternally Balaw and maternally Afar. For starters, the Imam is at no point ever called a Balaw and nor are any of his relatives. In terms of his relations we are told of:

* His sister Fardusa who is married to the Geri Kombe Somali Garad by the name of Mattan bin ‘Utman bin Kaled
* His sister Munisah who is married to a Garad Kamal and referred to as the daughter of Garad ‘Utman (different father from the Imam?)
* A maternal cousin named Muhammad bin Ali who is the Chieftain of the Zarba tribe that might be Somali
* A brother named Muhammad bin Ibrahim who is the chieftain of the tribes of Sawa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shewa) and Hargaya
* The Wazir ‘Abbas who is the son of the Imam’s brother
* Garad Abun who is said to be his brother and the son of Garad Ibrahim
* Garad Ahmadus bin Mahfuz, brother-in-law of the Imam because the Imam was married to Ahmadus' sister Ba‘tiya Del Wanbara whose father was Garad Mahfuz


That's it as far as I've ever seen in terms of relations mentioned in the Futuh (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EIrc-gjXpWlrazDpjNm88J_jHzWTKhQw/view?usp=sharing). Other than this I could find no claims that he was Balaw or related to someone of Balaw origins so I wondered where this claim came from and then I noticed this:


He went to his home in a town called Za‘ka, a day's journey from the town of the sultan. He encountered a young man in the employ of the sultan Abu Bakr bin Muhammad, whose name was Hamdus bin Mahfuz, who had four of the sultan's horses with him. He took them from him, and set out from his town of Za‘ka for a place callcd Rabat al-Baqr This was a place of many trees, with a well-fortified mountain. He stayed there one day, and then went on to a place called Sih which was a mighty, flowing river. He then had seven horses. He was joined by an emir called Garad Abu Bakr bin Ismail.

...

The storyteller says: The imam turned back, remming to the country* of the Muslims, after looting much booty and settled down in his town of Za‘ka. He then went to see the sultan Abu Bakr and peace was made between the two of them. Afterwards, however, the sultan's mood changed. He treated his subjects unjustly, corruption reappeared, as did hostility towards the imam whom he sought to kill. The learned men and sheikhs did their best to reconcile them both. The sultan, however, opposed these moves and started a war against the imam. He abandoned the path of truth and plotted to deceive the imam, but was duped by his own cunning just as the Most High God says in the masterful passage in his illustrious book: The vile ruse entraps him who concocts it.’

...

Hearing that the imam was in the country of Hubat, the sultan Abu Bakr set out with his infantry and his cavalry and went to the village of the imam Ahmad. He burnt his home, and looted the possessions of the Muslims there. The imam and his companions heard what the sultan had done in his village, so he and they set out by night from the country of Hubat and kept on going from town to town harrying the sultan, and being harried by him, until they came to a place called Jadar. Exhausted from their journeying they fell asleep there. Around noon the sultan and his forces caught them unawares as they slept. They awakened and fled but not one of them was captured

...

Returning to his country Sultan Muhammad was murdered by his in law Muhammad bin Abu Bakr bin Mahfuz, a prominent person in the country, who ruled the country after him for one year. Then Muhammad bin Abu Bakr bin Mahfuz was, in his turn, murdered. His killer was Ibrahim bin Ahmad, ruler of the country of Hubat." of the tribe of Balaw, a prominent person in the country who ruled the country after him for three months.

You see, the Imam is originally from a town/village named Za'ka in the country of Hubat and his full name is Ahmad bin Ibrahim and for a short time a man by the name of Ibrahim bin Ahmad ruled over Hubat and he was a Balaw and the secondary sources seem to just assume, I guess, that this is the Imam's father even though the Futuh never makes any such connection between the two when it tells us about Ibrahim bin Ahmad and he is not called a Garad unlike the Imam's father. The claim that he is related to Garad Abun who ruled Hubat for seven years after Ibrahim bin Ahmad was deposed is also seemingly based on no evidence since the Futuh never establishes any such connection:


Ibrahim bin Ahmad was killed in his turn. His murderer was Wasani the slave of Garad Mahfuz, a prominent person in the country- who ruled the country for three months. He was arrested after this, and his captor was Mansur bin Muhammed who sent him in shackles to Zayla* and he was murdered by one of the slaves of Yafa‘ in Zayla‘. In his stead ruled the emir Mansur bin Mahfuz bin Muhammad bin Garad Adas. Garad Mansur waged war against Garad Abun for five months. After this Garad Abun came against him, and ruled for seven years. He clung to the truth, and exercised justice and authority in a fairway, banning what was forbidden [in the Law], killing highwaymen, forbidding wine, games, and dances accompanied by drums. The country flourished. He cultivated the nobles and the Qur’anic teachers, the dervishes and the sheikhs. He ruled over his kingdom, and worked for the good of his subjects.

[Ahmad bin Ibrahim]

Our lord the imam of the Muslims, Ahmad bin Ibrahim at-Gazi was at that time a knight under Garad Abun, endowed with intelligence and foresight who consulted, in his youth and in his prime, the inspiration of God the Most High in regard to the commission that God willed should be entrusted to him. Garad Abun loved him mightily, when he saw howr courageous and astute41 he was. After this, the sultan Abu Bakr, son of the sultan Muhammad bin Azr from the stock of Sacd ad-Din, stood up against Garad Abun. He raised against him a band of Somalis whom he had recruited from among the riffraff and highwaymen. They fought against Garad Abun and waged a bloody battle against him, killing Garad Abun bin Adas in his homeland as he defended his country and his family. He died a martyr’s death. May the Most High God have pity on him.

The Imam simply served as a cavalryman under Garad Abun who ruled his home region of Hubat and was well favored by him. That is all. You maybe wondering though at how I listed a Garad Abun the Imam is a brother to but that is not this Abun whose name is Garad Abun bin Adas and not bin Ibrahim who was killed by an Abyssinian nobleman named Wasan Sagad whereas Garad Abun bin Adas was killed by a Walashma Sultan which is something secondary sources like this (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vEZV4gNKTyTkOa9jt9TVZo0SxXACXk-E/view?usp=sharing) completely miss. All of this also relates to how the Imam eventually rose to power in that the Walashma came along and conquered Hubat, killing Garad Abun, and their rule was apparently quite decadent and inspired Ahmad to rise up. At any rate, Garad Abun bin Adas himself is never said to be a Balaw as far as I can see nor is he related to the Imam. So the Balaw claim seems baseless. All we really know is that the Imam was born in a town/village called Za'ka in a place called Hubat and from there you can try to put things together from his relations if you like. I assume his brother being the chieftain of the tribes of Sawa and Hargaya might have been a later development by conquest as well since all we really know of the Imam's early life, and possibly that of his brothers, is that he is from this town/village in Hubat and not of any known tribal group but who knows; that might be the ringer. Nevertheless, the Balaw thing is out the window.

Now, there is an interesting matter this document (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vEZV4gNKTyTkOa9jt9TVZo0SxXACXk-E/view?usp=sharing) brings up. Though it should be noted before I go on that the author makes many mistakes like calling Mattan a Marehan, perhaps wrongly considering the Zarba Somali, putting forward the Balaw stuff, and not realizing the Malasay are an elite fighting unit composed of different groups and not a tribe or ethnicity which he erroneously tries to tie to the Afar based on secondary sources that have no evidence for the strange leaps they're making like sharing that the Afar have a special warrior group called the Gobad and that the Malasay are the Gobad when the "Gobad" or anything like thatare never once mentioned in the Futuh and it is explained that the Malasay are not a single group but just an elite force gathered from among the Muslim soldiers as a whole. However, despite all that he does highlight an interesting story in the Futuh:


After he had heard that the idol-worshippers had assembled near a church called Latibala, 84 the imam set out into the mountains, by a difficult route, to attack them. Rain fell on them from above. They marched by night, and still he forced their march. Some of their number died from the piercing cold before he arrived at the church. He found its monks there, milling around and willing to die for its sake. The imam gazed at the church, He had never seen its like. It was carved out of the mountain. Its pillars were likewise cut from the mountain. Theonly things made of timber in the church were their statues and their sarcophagi. It had a large water cistern carved out of the mountainside. The imam had the monks788 grouped together and then ordered firewood to be strewn inside [the church]. He had it set alight, and when the heat intensified he said to them, ‘One of you shall enter it; and one of us,'to find out what they would do; to put them to the test. Their chief said, ‘I shall enter willingly’. Thereupon one of the women rose up, she was a nun, and said, "This is he who taught me the Gospel. Shall he die while I am watching him?" So she entered the fire and threw herself down in it. The imam said, " Put her out’. So they pulled her out. Part of her face had been burned.

You see, what this story tells us is that Imam carries a known custom among former Waaqist East-Cushites like Somalis and Afars:


The Somal hold mainly to the Shafei school of El Islam: their principal peculiarity is that of not reciting
prayers over the dead even in the towns. The marriage ceremony is simple: the price of the bride and the
feast being duly arranged, the formula is recited by some priest or pilgrim. I have often been requested
to officiate on these occasions, and the End of Time has done it by irreverently reciting the Fatihah over
the happy pair. The Somal, as usual amongst the heterogeneous mass amalgamated by El Islam, have a
diversity of superstitions attesting their Pagan origin. Such for instance are their oaths by stones, their
reverence of cairns and holy trees, and their ordeals of fire and water, the Bolungo of Western Africa. A
man accused of murder or theft walks down a trench full of live charcoal and about a spear’s length, or
he draws out of the flames a smith’s anvil heated to redness: some prefer picking four or five cowries
from a large pot full of boiling water. The member used is at once rolled up in the intestines of a sheep
and not inspected for a whole day. They have traditionary seers called Tawuli, like the Greegree-men of
Western Africa, who, by inspecting the fat and bones of slaughtered cattle, “do medicine,” predict rains,
battles, and diseases of animals. This class is of both sexes: they never pray or bathe, and are therefore
considered always impure; thus, being feared, they are greatly respected by the vulgar. Their predictions
are delivered in a rude rhyme, often put for importance into the mouth of some deceased seer. During
the three months called Rajalo the Koran is not read over graves, and no marriage ever takes place.
The reason of this peculiarity is stated to be imitation of their ancestor Ishak, who happened not to
contract a matrimonial alliance at such epoch: it is, however, a manifest remnant of the Pagan’s
auspicious and inauspicious months. Thus they sacrifice she-camels in the month Sabuh, and keep holy
with feasts and bonfires the Dubshid or New Year’s Day.20 At certain unlucky periods when the moon is
in ill-omened Asterisms those who die are placed in bundles of matting upon a tree, the idea being that if
buried a loss would result to the tribe.

The author also points out that the way the Imam practices this trial by fire tradition is a manner that is found among the Afar but this was 500 years ago and I wouldn't be shocked if Somalis practiced it this way too back then or if certain tribes did or another Cushitic group altogether. There really is little proof that Afars were involved in the Futuh as far as I've seen. Their region is mentioned in passing as just a region the Muslims pass by more or less and no tribes are mentioned and no association is made between "Ayfars" and "Hubat" or "Ayfars" and any group nor are any "Ayfar" tribes mentioned as being involved in the fighting. I just don't buy that they were involved but who knows. There is also no linguistic or historical evidence as far as I know. Afars were nowhere to be seen around Harar during the time Burton visited in the 1800s from what I remember unlike Southern Ethiosemites and Somalis and there is no proof of an Afar substratum anywhere either in the Somali dialects or in in the Ethiosemitic languages in the area which have either an Agaw (Argobba) or Sidamic (Harari) substratum. Not sure about the Oromo dialects in the area but I suspect as much there too.

But if he was Somali one does beg the question as to why this wasn't mentioned given how much he is talked about in the book but it could also just be that what the author in that secondary source assumes about Afar maternal descent could very well have been true in the Somali case given the supposed connection in another document to the Habar Magaadle and also the possibility that the Zarba are Somali given how they're listed among the Somali tribes arriving near Harar and their chieftain is the Imam's maternal cousin. Either way, he does seem to have some sort form of Cushitic, former Waaqist roots based on his displaying of this tradition. I'd have to look into it but perhaps Sidamics practiced this as well.

All in all, the Balaw claim appears plainly false and the maternal Afar claim quite unlikely though at least more in the running than the Balaw claim. Anyway, feel free to check me on anything I may have missed or erred with. But yeah, reading the primary source is really important. So many of these secondary sources spread unbelievable amounts of misinformation.

Personally, I lean toward him being some form of a Sidamic or Ethiosemitized Sidamic (i.e. Hararis) with probably partial Somali roots

Mirix
05-23-2021, 01:13 PM
You are trying to answer to something written by a Pseudo-Historian Oromo nationalist. He has been rebuked by other authors before when he tried to dismiss the “History of Gallas” written by Bahrey because the author called them bad people , so he want to throw out the book as biased or prejudiced. Then Maimire Mennasemay (https://www.jstor.org/stable/41756933?seq=1)countered him and showed how its very reliable. That he is also false on numerous accounts.

He tries to even claim Oromos are not new comers, which begs the question if they lived anywhere in the Horn, or even bali, dawaro and the general horn how come they were pagan until recently? How come the Oromos furthest from eachother hardly show any dialectal difference that would occur through seperation over a longer period?

As Herber Lewis pointed out

Among the Somali, however, the process of differentiation has had time to go so far, for today Somali speak several distinct dialects which, though perhaps approaching the status of distinct languages, can still be considered as dialects of one language.56 The Galla, it is clear, cannot have begun separating very long ago, since their 'language is so essentially constant that the women and children of the Gurri tribe, who inhabit the El Wak oasis and the surrounding districts... talk the same dialect as those of the Walega'.

Galla oral traditions confirms their origin in the Borana region as well.

Same with the Adeere(Which is a Somali name), Harla-Harari connection never mentioned in futah and it's not demonstratable. The inference Afar is also pulled from the back side as they are called Danakil, have many clans and none have been recorded , much less have a population history/tradition in this side of the horn. Where they are mentioned is at north of present-day Afar territory, south of Bahr Nagaš territory.

Beja live in deep north in Tigray and have zero substratum or traditions/history on this side as well. Futuh makes no connection to that either.

Back to the topic about Imam Ahmed is that he is most likely Hawiye because they are the demographic in Hobaad. I have been trying to get my hands on two books that explore his origins one is in Amharic written by an Ethiopian historian by Tekles'adiq's called "Ye Giragn Ahmed Werera" and the other is in Arabic by Shayk Ahmad Abdallah Rirash called "Kashf al-Sudul An Tarikh al-Sūmāl wa-Mamālikihim al-Sab'ah"

There also Harar manuscripts i think, because Tekle Merkuria got his information about Imam Ahmed's Hawiye descent/genealogy by a Traditional Harari scholar Ahmad as/Ali Sami. If you don't know Ahmed As Sami is the one who has been supplying academics and researcher with Arabic documents and recorded traditions & history of HararThree Arabic Documents on the History of Harar (https://www.jstor.org/stable/44324707?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents).

Based on refrences i have seen to the last book which pretty much confirms the same thing as Tekle but adds that Harar's old name Adeere was named after Karanle youngest son ,Wa’Adeere. Murusades original name and people in harar still call themselves by this name.

Whilst Wa'adeere migrated to central and southern Somaliya, Where they now call themselves ''Besha Wa Adeere Tigale", his 3 other brothers (Gidir, Sixawle and Kaariye) remained in the vicinity (Hararghe region) even till this day. There is settlement in Harar called Gidir Magaale named after Gidir, which has become a big market place.

Hawiye are the main clain in Hobaad and that town is the predecessor to Harar. So it makes sense.

When Richard Burton visited Harar. the Hawiye was one of the prominent people there and one was described as a Harar man:


During my stay with Sharmarkay I made many inquiries about historical works , and the Kazi ; Mohammed Khatib , a Harar man of the Hawiyah tribe , was at last persuaded to send his Daftar , or office papers inspection .

Mirix
05-23-2021, 02:06 PM
Also about the Harla origins, We can Y-Chromosome test the Ciise Harla, in the future, when possible. Then we can, once for all solve the Harla People's mysterious origins.

Many years back, used to work with 3 Ciisa at an Airport Rental car, and, one of them was Harla. We don't live in the same city anymore. I would have advised him to take 23andme test.

Are there any other known Somali Clan that has assimilated the Harla except the Ciisa?


Issa didn't assimilate Harla though. A remant Harla are just political tied to them (Sheegad), in the same way Sheekhal is with Hawiye and Dishiishe are with Majerteen and the ones in Issa speak a different Somali dialect that is similar to the Gabooye and don't claim the same lineage but claim Darood.

Besides testing DNA, i think if you want further confirmation, just look at the genealogy and lineage history of the ones in Oromo along Hararghe and Awfat , the same will probably turn up as the ones found in Afar in Awsa i.e claiming Darod Kombe.

Moos
05-23-2021, 04:17 PM
Harrla darood lineages within Afar:
http://www.islhornafr.eu/ReportAwsa2017.pdf

Awale
05-23-2021, 09:55 PM
Same with the Adeere(Which is a Somali name), Harla-Harari connection never mentioned in futah and it's not demonstratable. The inference Afar is also pulled from the back side as they are called Danakil, have many clans and none have been recorded , much less have a population history/tradition in this side of the horn. Where they are mentioned is at north of present-day Afar territory, south of Bahr Nagaš territory.

Yeah, I've seen this "Adareh/Adeere" or what have you claim thrown around by secondary sources which will claim the Imam belonged to them and that they are mentioned all over the Futuh as elites. Guess what? Never mentioned. I swear, I can't help but feel there are A LOT of ethnic biases going into the reading of the Futuh by various Horner scholars. It's especially weird when a few of these baseless inferences are made by foreigners but I guess there was a bias toward this or that Horn ethnic group with them too. It is worth nothing, I guess, that Hararis or a "people of Harar" are never mentioned nor are tribal names that can be reliably connected to Hararis or Argobbas, at least as far as I know. You see more signs of Sidamics with "Gedaya" and "Hadya" than them, truth be told. But I think Ethiosemitized Sidamics were most likely among the tribes of Shewa and other such regions.


Back to the topic about Imam Ahmed is that he is most likely Hawiye because they are the demographic in Hobaad. I have been trying to get my hands on two books that explore his origins one is in Amharic written by an Ethiopian historian by Tekles'adiq's called "Ya Gran Warara" and the other is in Arabic by Shayk Ahmad Abdallah Rirash called "Kashf al-Sudul An Tarikh al-Sūmāl wa-Mamālikihim al-Sab'ah"

There also Harar manuscripts i think, because Tekle Merkuria got his information about Imam Ahmed's Hawiye descent/genealogy by a Traditional Harari scholar Ahmad as/Ali Sami. If you don't know Ahmed As Sami is the one who has been supplying academics and researcher with Arabic documents and recorded traditions & history of HararThree Arabic Documents on the History of Harar.

If there are really such Harar manuscripts with a good time-frame and they claim this then it seems plausible but it begs the question, walaal, as to why Arab Faqih doesn't take the time to mention that Hubat is a "Hawiya" region. Yes, there are instances where he doesn't call a group Somali. Bartire is one where we just make the assumption cos they are mentioned in a sentence with other Somali tribes and the name is just so obvious and then there are people running around with names like Absama Nur or Magan who are not explicitly pointed out to be Somali but these aren't the Imam. If the Futuh were a work of fiction he'd be it's "main character". Why neglect mentioning that he is "Hawiya" or "Somali" and so forth?

Mind you, I am not as zealously against him being Somali as some. Just pointing out possible holes in this. And the claims I've seen online that he was Hawiye seem to go off the "Balaw" stuff and claim his ancestor had that as a nickname or that Balaw is a Hawiye subgroup or something which kinda tips you off, in my humble opinion, that at least those are fairly recent claims based on secondary sources wrongly tying him to the Balaw.

And do you have any sources on the town Hoobad stuff? I've seen it around for many years but couldn't find anything academic. Just Somalis mentioning that it is near Harar and inhabited by Karanle or that it is "Babile (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Babile,+Ethiopia/@9.2240198,42.0490871,119377m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x1631e97702a3dde1:0x71ef6 49486d240ba!8m2!3d9.2219852!4d42.3298717)" or in that general area and nothing of it being a predecessor to Harar. The Futuh actually mentions Harar as well Hubat and never really relates the two.


Interesting discussions!

About the Clans mentioned, I am surprised that major western Somali clans are missing like Ciise, Gadabuurse, and Ogaden. Was Ogaden a Western Clan those days? or they lived in the East like the Harti?

Did i miss, or only Gurgura and barsuk Dir are mentioned? Were Gadubuurse and Ciise mentioned?

Samaroon are probably not coming up because most of what is in the Futuh, as I pointed out, is clearly happening in the interior of the Horn and near Harar. The qabils mentioned are mostly the same ones that have historically lived around Harar in later periods. Awdal, or the region around Zeila is only mentioned more or less in passing and isn't central to the events. Even ignoring all the clear stuff about where the Futuh is mainly taking place and the clans, the Imam himself basically spells things out for us at one point:


[The Arabs and the soldiers from Oman build rafts]

The imam then assembled all the sharifs, with the Arabs and those from the Magreb, and other from Mahra. He said to them: ‘We know only open country and mountains. The sea is your livelihood; you know what concerns it. So now, let us hear your opinion. What would you do in this situation?’ They replied, ‘We need some pieces of thick wood; then watch what wc do.' So the imam commanded the soldiers to bring all the pieces of wood. They gathered together for him a vast quantity of wood, and laid it down by the shore of the lake.

These are not coastal people, including all but one of the Somali clans (Harti) that is a small minority in the army and associated with a coastal settlement (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maydh), and understandably don't know anything about boat building unlike coastal Somalis who have always seemingly had a minority among them who settle the coast and practice fishing and seafaring with the same sort of Indian Ocean boat-building techniques found among Arabs, Swahilis and Indians (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jm6JzlJZZ0b4zWgRdxH71JYse_Kf-s3S/view?usp=sharing).


I think the vast majority of the medieval Harla ended up being absorbed by the Afran Qallo Oromos and perhaps some among specific Afars and the Hararis.Unless we get some medieval samples from Ethiopia or perhaps SL; I'm afraid we will never know much about these Harlas.

A little OT but I think people shouldn't make aDNA the end all be all. It's important but, for example, if we dig up some burials and notice mostly non-Habesha-like remains in the northwest I would find it erroneous for someone to ever claim there was zero Ethiosemitic evidence there given the evidence with Christian burials, supposed Ge'ez bibles and I think even perhaps some evidence in the vernacular architecture employed. The same goes if folks see Haplogroups not normally found among Somalis popping up across the north and south in the aDNA record. Modern Somalis look like the result of a bottleneck so we could easily be pretty heavily descended from whatever non even V32 Cushites were running around in the Somali Peninsula back then. Pure, uncritical aDNA worship leads to some weird stuff like how David Reich for a time gave some fuel to these anti-steppe hypothesis types. Like it's lost on some of these researchers that they wouldn't even know what "Indo-European" or cultural horizons like Yamnaya and Sredny Stog are without fields like comparative linguistics and archaeology. They'd just dig up some random dudes, notice they were related and seemingly contributed to modern Europeans and be able to make few real inferences beyond that. Historical records, linguistics and all this are also very important.

Mirix
05-23-2021, 10:52 PM
I Linked you the archeological paper on Hoobat remember, it's now called Harlee and is the predecessor to Harar, it was the city before Harar and the same population populated Harar and founded it. Harar was founded in the 1500s acording to archeology, the stories of it being super old are nonsense.

Arab Faqih is not clear about the regions at all. Made other authors even assume Somali clans arrived from elsewhere, lwhe 99% of the the clans that are mentioned live further west or around/near Harar with the exception of Harti which the author goes out of his way to mention where that they came from the Eastern town Maydh. They are the only clan he makes an identifiable specification for from which we can locate. Can you even locate where this country of Somaal is?, from the text it seems to be all over the place. Doesn't give us any info about it other than a town called Kidad which is not identifiable. Same when he mentions ''region of Hawiyah" he doesn't mention any cities about it or anything.

Same with Zarba, he says its a country in the region of Harba. In another he says Zarba is a district which Somalis also live in.

I am going off based early modern distribution of Hawiye the live in that general region although some have been assimilated by Afran Qollo. And i would have to get my hands on those sources instead of seeing refrences for them. About the present day Hararis, their language is close kin to Gurage and similarly share Sidamo substratum. You said this once:


I find it a bit implausible that Sidamic speakers lived that deep into Eastern Ethiopia and so close to Northwestern Somalia. Though I suppose it's not impossible prior to the spread of the Oromo people. Nevertheless, it's more likely, to me, that the linguistic predecessors of Hararis perhaps lived where the Gurage peoples do and acquired their substrate there then moved to East Hararghe to find people mostly like Somalis but I suppose one can't be absolutely sure.

I 100% agree with this. Seems more likely they moved there post 16th century probably to escape Oromos.


. Yes, there are instances where he doesn't call a group Somali. Bartire is one where we just make the assumption cos they are mentioned in a sentence with other Somali tribes and the name is just so obvious and then there are people running around with names like Absama Nur or Magan who are not explicitly pointed out to be Somali but these aren't the Imam. If the Futuh were a work of fiction he'd be it's "main character". Why neglect mentioning that he is "Hawiya" or "Somali" and so forth?

Absame/Absama is an Ogaden clan name as well. There is also names of individuals mentioned in Futah by the name of Mahe and Dinni. One is a Dir clan Mahe which is an Ogaden clan and the other is a name common among Merahan called "Reer Diini (https://www.wikiwand.com/so/Mareexaan#/Xubnaha_Beesha)" . For example Abdulkadir_Sheikh_Dini (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdulkadir_Sheikh_Dini).

Arwale Awr Dini, Nasr Ibn Dini and Auws Ibn Mahe

My explanation is that many of them weren't clan cheiftains or clan leaders hence their clan wasn't mentioned for that reason. But some times some bore their clan names like Al-Bartirri for example.

drobbah
05-24-2021, 12:15 AM
But I think Ethiosemitized Sidamics were most likely among the tribes of Shewa and other such regions.
The footnote comments by the translator of the Futuh that I bought states that there are two different Shewas being mentioned.


The tribes of Shewa and the tribes of Hargaya rallied to him.At that time their chieftain was Muhammad bin Ibrahim, the brother of the Imam

The translator's comment about this topic:


This passage does not refer to the well-known Christian province of Shewa, but rather to a muslim political entity of the same name, earlier situated further to the east

Cerulli, 'Il Sultano dello Scioa nel secolo XIII secondo un nuovo documento storico


The passages refering to the Christian Shewa


Instead let us march on the land of Shewa, for that is where the king's treasure house and wealth is.When the Imam saw that the greatest part of them supported this opinion, he said to Haib, "You be quiet; we shall follow the opinion of these others.The king shall be in our power, God willing"


Then the muslims reutrned, marching to the land of Shewa by way of the town Wiz.The Imam sent a raiding party under the command of Abdan-Nasr to Andaqbatan [district in Shewa mentioned in the chronicle of Emperor Amda Seyon] in the land of Shewa, near which flowed the river Awash.


The people of Warabba and the people of Shewa voluntarily submitted to the payment of the jizya, and secured peace for their countries


44786





Does anyone have the arabic version for this passage for either Arabic versions of the Futuh? I wonder if this really is our Yibir brothers or the english translater mistranslated Yabarre


The Imam sent Ali to one of the Somali tribes called Yibberi

Awale
06-20-2021, 10:18 AM
By the way, I noticed that the "Habar Maqdi" who are different tribe from the "Habar Magadli" and have a different chieftain are basically "Habar Makadur" of the Samaroon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadabuursi) Dir. With that in mind it's actually amazing because we basically seem to have pretty straight continuity between the Futuh, Burton's accounts during the 1800s and more recent 1990s era accounts of the local Somali tribes.

Tribes mentioned by the Futuh other than the Harti who are pointed out to be from Maydh (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maydh) in the east:


Then he split his force into three divisions. The first consisted of the people of Sim, the tribe of Marraihan and Bar Tarri which are the Habr Maqdi, and the people of Jawatir: they were under the command of the wazir ‘Addoli.

...

[The Somali tribes reach Harar]

The first of the tribes to reach the imam was Habr Maqdi ("Habar Magadli" in the Arabic text and the actual Habar Maqdi with a different chieftain seems to be referring to the Habar Makadur of the Samaroon) with their lord and chieftain Ahmad Girri bin Husain, the Somali. They encamped in a place called Qasa in the heights above the valley of Harar. They showed off their equipment and their weapons, and paraded their horses. They were knights, and what knights! And they were foot-soldiers; and what foot- soldiers! The imam rejoiced at their arrival exceedingly. They met the imam face to face, and he welcomed them with the warmest of welcomes. He gave them gifts of apparel, and provisions, and treated them graciously, garbing Their chieftain, Ahmad Girri, in particularly exquisite clothing. After them it was the tribe of Girri who came up. Their chieftain was Mattan bin ‘Utman bin Kaled, the Somali. They showed off their weaponry and armour, paraded their horses and had their bows slung sash-like over their shoulders as they met the imam face to face. He commanded them then to go ahead to a place called Sim. Their chieftain had brought with him his wife, Fardusa, the sister of the imam Ahmad. And he set out ahead, he and his army.

...

At this the companions of the imam screamed out, saying, ‘The infidels have tricked us; they are after the livestock,’ whereupon the imam split his forces into two divisions: one he entrusted to Garad Ahmusa, composed of the Somali spearmen of the Marraihan, the Gorgorah and the Hawiya; around one-thousand of them from among the most famous spearmen. And from the soldiers bearing shields, the same number.
...

[The Somali tribes gather for the jihad ]

It was after this333 that the Mahra party and the sharif Muhammad reached the imam who feted their coming on account of the jihad ; and then he sent to all the districts of the Somalis and to the tribes of Harla. Then all the tribes rose up.

The first tribe to come up was the Habr Maqdi with their lord Garad Dawit, fifty knights and five-hundred foot-soldiers. After them the Marraihan came up, with their lord Ahmad bin Hirabu, with eighty knights and seven-hundred foot-soldiers. After them came up the Gorgorah with Garad Abd their chieftain, and thirty knights and one-thousand foot-soldiers. Then the tribe of Girri came up, with their chieftain Garad Mattan along with eighty knights and one-thousand foot-soldiers. In the same way the tribe of Zarba came up from Harla with their lord the sultan Muhammad with twenty knights and three-hundred foot-soldiers. The tribes assembled - all of them volunteers and on good terms with one another. The number of the horses in readiness was around five-hundred, and there were twelve-thousand foot-soldiers, not to mention those who carried the provisions and other things
besides.

...

Then he assembled the Somali tribes: the tribe of Girri, the tribe of Marraihan, the tribe of Yibberi with the chieftain Ahmad Girri, the tribe of the Harti, people of Mait, the tribe of Jaran, the tribe of Mazzar. the tribe of Barsub: all of these were Somalis and they were ordered by the imam to hold the left. Each tribe had its own emir.

Tribes mentioned to be living in this same general area by Burton during the 1800s:


The Gerad Adan was powerful, being the head of a tribe of cultivators, not split up, like the Bedouins,
into independent clans, and he thus exercises a direct influence upon the conterminous races.25 The
Girhi or “Giraffes” inhabiting these hills are, like most of the other settled Somal, a derivation from
Darud, and descended from Kombo. Despite the unmerciful persecutions of the Gallas, they gradually
migrated westwards from Makhar, their original nest, now number 5000 shields, possess about 180
villages, and are accounted the power paramount. Though friendly with the Habr Awal, the Girhi seldom
descend, unless compelled by want of pasture, into the plains.

The other inhabitants of these hills are the Gallas and the Somali clans of Berteri, Bursuk, Shaykhash,
Hawiyah, Usbayhan, Marayhan, and Abaskul.


1999 Somali tribes map:

https://i.imgur.com/arPbuY1.png

That with how the "Country of the Somalis" in the Futuh seems somewhere near the border with Christian lands and not far from Bale pretty much tells you all you need to know. Cool to think that tribal makeup of that general area has remained relatively the same for about 500 years.