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Gray Fox
04-08-2014, 03:48 AM
I didn't really want to start an entire thread for a single question, but I couldn't find a proper place to ask it.

I've discovered that my Paternal Grandmothers, Fathers, Mothers, Father belongs to R1a1a -M17. I know next to nothing about this group and would like to learn more. Especially regarding its presence in Scotland.

I'm assuming that its presence may be the result of either the Vikings or Normans, but this is based off of my limited knowledge of R1a in the Isles.

Here is the project group for the Reid family, kit number 265363

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/reed/default.aspx?section=yresults

I'm hoping one of the R1a guru's can give me some more insight to this. You can find their Str's in the Ungrouped R1a section towards the bottom of the page.

lgmayka
04-08-2014, 04:06 AM
Offhand, I would say that it looks Z284+ (Scandinavian). But for a more precise assessment, please consider joining the R1a1a and Subclades Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1a/default.aspx?section=results), a.k.a. the R1a Project.

Michał
04-08-2014, 06:50 AM
Here is the project group for the Reid family, kit number 265363

He seems to belong to a specific STR-defined cluster callled 8.B5 in the above-mentioned project (where me and lgmayka are co-admins). Thus, he is predicted to test positive for L448 but negative for CTS4179, a marker that defines a major subclade of L448 (encompassing much more than a half of all L448 members). Thanks to some recent Big Y results, we have recently identified a new subclade of L448 (YP355) that encompasses at least clusters 8.B1 and 8.B3A, but since no member of 8.B5 from our project has ordered Big Y, we don't know if this particular cluster is YP355+.

Clade L448 is also known as a "Young Scandinavian branch" (according to the classification by Rozhanskii and Klyosov) and is indeed commonly believed to have been spread over much of North-Western Europe with the Norse Viking migrations/invasions.

Gray Fox
04-08-2014, 08:34 AM
Many, many thanks to the both of you! I'll try to convince them to join the appropriate projects.

IrishNorse
04-08-2014, 12:19 PM
Michal,

I guess I'm not surprised that 8.B.2 may not be included in YP355, is it to early to tell if a SNP test for that one?

Tom

Michał
04-08-2014, 12:39 PM
Michal,
I guess I'm not surprised that 8.B.2 may not be included in YP355, is it to early to tell if a SNP test for that one?

I would rather say that it seems quite likely that all known subclusters within the category 8.B (8.B1-8.B5) are a part of this new subclade YP355, but we won't know it until they test it.

cmorley
04-08-2014, 05:05 PM
The other identified members of 8.B5 are Scandinavian; see page 5 of https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1a/default.aspx?section=ycolorized.

Out of curiosity, Sam, do you see any patterns in 265363's closest matches' surnames and countries of origins? For instance, are the closest matches predominantly Scottish? Do any close matches have English surnames? Or are they all Scandinavian?

Gray Fox
04-08-2014, 11:20 PM
The other identified members of 8.B5 are Scandinavian; see page 5 of https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1a/default.aspx?section=ycolorized.

Out of curiosity, Sam, do you see any patterns in 265363's closest matches' surnames and countries of origins? For instance, are the closest matches predominantly Scottish? Do any close matches have English surnames? Or are they all Scandinavian?

I didn't fund the y-dna test, so I don't have access to his matches. I joined the Facebook group that this person belongs to and I'm trying to get more info from there. I'll post any match info that I get on here for comparison. There does seem to be some disagreement on where this line traces its ancestry. Everything I've read on them seems to suggest a Scottish origin, while members of the Facebook group seem to believe there was an English origin. Time will tell.

cmorley
04-09-2014, 07:03 PM
I didn't fund the y-dna test, so I don't have access to his matches. I joined the Facebook group that this person belongs to and I'm trying to get more info from there. I'll post any match info that I get on here for comparison. There does seem to be some disagreement on where this line traces its ancestry. Everything I've read on them seems to suggest a Scottish origin, while members of the Facebook group seem to believe there was an English origin. Time will tell.

Thanks, Sam.

Instead of "Scandinavian" I should have said "Nordic".

If there are close British matches with uncommon surnames, check out their 1881 distributions using http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/default.aspx . Any pattern?

Gray Fox
04-09-2014, 07:15 PM
Thanks, Sam.

Instead of "Scandinavian" I should have said "Nordic".

If there are close British matches with uncommon surnames, check out their 1881 distributions using http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/default.aspx . Any pattern?

You're welcome! I still haven't heard from said group or person yet. I often forget most people aren't as obsessed with this hobby as I am! So, maybe I'm being a bit impatient. I scanned through the Reid's who have accounts on Ysearch and discovered another branch of R1a1a Reid's reporting ancestry in Drainie, Moray, Scotland. This person has test results in the Reid dna project that are just above my supposed relatives. Their distance is enough that they aren't closely related, but I do suspect a split around the time the group adopted permanent surnames.

IrishNorse
04-10-2014, 09:27 PM
Michal,

Is there a guesstimate as to the age of YP355? Will it be akin to CTS4179 or older?

Michał
04-11-2014, 09:26 AM
Michal,

Is there a guesstimate as to the age of YP355? Will it be akin to CTS4179 or older?
Based on the fact that this clade is defined by a single BigY-tested SNP marker under L448, we can assume that YP355 is not young, and I would also expect that this clade is at least as old as CTS4179, which of course increases the chances of encompassing other subclusters of 8.B, including 8.B2, 8.B4 and 8.B5.

For producing more reliable TMRCA estimates, we need more YP355 being tested with Big Y or FGC (and more BAM files being analysed at YFull).

ÁNLEIFR
09-11-2014, 02:13 PM
Michal, have there been any more who have tested positive for YP355?

Michał
09-11-2014, 03:30 PM
Michal, have there been any more who have tested positive for YP355?

Apart from the three YSEQ-tested cases known to me (FTDNA kits 309012, 57597 and N113881) and five BigY-tested members of YP355 (kits 151063, 292223, 311959, 315950 and 193049) all remaining positive YP355 results can be found on the SNP page in our R1a1a and Subclades project:
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1a/default.aspx?section=ysnp