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tkofi
05-18-2021, 02:26 PM
Hi everyone

I have been reading the threads regularly and I am impressed by the quality of the conversations (most of the time :)) and the knowledge of the regular posters.

I noticed that few people wanted to see more Greek Maniot DNA data (my father is 100% from Laconian Mesa Mani from both sides of his family). I have been tested with FTDNA for Big- Y, Mtdna and also autosomal. I have also run the numbers through GEDMATCH, mytrueancestry, myheritage (results pending).

I know some of the folks here have their own models etc and can run PCA analysis and what not. If someone is keen I am happy to share the raw data.

Here are some results to kick this off:

BIG Y results => J2a1 --> PF421 --> J-Y31951 (FTDNA) & J-Y31950 (Yfull) or FGC68843
MtDNA results --> H1C

Autosomal FTDNA

79% Southern Europe
-Greece & Balkans 71%
- Italian Peninsula 7%
Middle East & North Africa 21%
-Middle East Anatolia, Armenia, & Mesopotamia 14%
- Sephardic Jewish 5%
- Druze <3%
Arabia
- Yemenite Jewish <1%

Autosomal True Ancestry - Modern Populations

1. Central_Greek (5.931)
2. Greek_Crete (7.178)
3. Ashkenazi (7.546)
4. East_Sicilian (7.802)
5. Greek_Islands (7.966)
6. Greek (8.306)
7. Italian_Abruzzo (8.900)
8. South_Italian (9.221)

I have also updated the PCA analysis from True Ancestry (or at least I think I did - first time posting on this forum).

Thoughts / comments?

Sorcelow
05-18-2021, 02:28 PM
Hi everyone

I have been reading the threads regularly and I am impressed by the quality of the conversations (most of the time :)) and the knowledge of the regular posters.

I noticed that few people wanted to see more Greek Maniot DNA data (my father is 100% from Laconian Mesa Mani from both sides of his family). I have been tested with FTDNA for Big- Y, Mtdna and also autosomal. I have also run the numbers through GEDMATCH, mytrueancestry, myheritage (results pending).

I know some of the folks here have their own models etc and can run PCA analysis and what not. If someone is keen I am happy to share the raw data.

Here are some results to kick this off:

BIG Y results => J2a1 --> PF421 --> J-Y31951 (FTDNA) & J-Y31950 (Yfull) or FGC68843
MtDNA results --> H1C

Autosomal FTDNA

79% Southern Europe
-Greece & Balkans 71%
- Italian Peninsula 7%
Middle East & North Africa 21%
-Middle East Anatolia, Armenia, & Mesopotamia 14%
- Sephardic Jewish 5%
- Druze <3%
Arabia
- Yemenite Jewish <1%

Autosomal True Ancestry - Modern Populations

1. Central_Greek (5.931)
2. Greek_Crete (7.178)
3. Ashkenazi (7.546)
4. East_Sicilian (7.802)
5. Greek_Islands (7.966)
6. Greek (8.306)
7. Italian_Abruzzo (8.900)
8. South_Italian (9.221)

I have also updated the PCA analysis from True Ancestry (or at least I think I did - first time posting on this forum).

Thoughts / comments?

Welcome, fellow J2a Laconian brother! Could you please post your Dodecad K12b results? Do you plan on ordering G25 coordinates?

tkofi
05-18-2021, 02:47 PM
Welcome, fellow J2a Laconian brother! Could you please post your Dodecad K12b results? Do you plan on ordering G25 coordinates?

Hi man,
Thanks for the warm welcome. Not sure if i do this right for Dodecad. Here are the steps:

-gedmatch
- free tools
- (admixture heritage)
- select project : Dodecad
- default selection "Admixture Proportions (With link to Oracle) "
-select version/project : K12B

Following this process here is what I get:

# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 36.55
2 Atlantic_Med 22.38
3 North_European 19.65
4 Southwest_Asian 9.42
5 Gedrosia 6.2
6 Northwest_African 4.75
7 East_Asian 0.57
8 Siberian 0.47

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek (Dodecad) 7.13
2 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 8.26
3 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 9.12
4 Sicilian (Dodecad) 10.53
5 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 10.75
6 C_Italian (Dodecad) 12.79
7 O_Italian (Dodecad) 13.34
8 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 14.66
9 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 16.06
10 Tuscan (HGDP) 16.25
11 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 16.65
12 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 17.29
13 TSI30 (Metspalu) 17.38
14 Turkish (Dodecad) 17.69
15 Romanians (Behar) 17.95
16 Cypriots (Behar) 19.82
17 Turks (Behar) 20.03
18 N_Italian (Dodecad) 22.27
19 Lebanese (Behar) 23.09
20 North_Italian (HGDP) 24.24

Is that what you had in mind? I also did Oracle v4 or something . Results below:

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Greek_Dodecad @ 7.684463
2 Ashkenazy_Jews_Behar @ 8.966168
3 Ashkenazi_Dodecad @ 9.869077
4 Sicilian_Dodecad @ 11.354768
5 S_Italian_Sicilian_Dodecad @ 11.593687
6 C_Italian_Dodecad @ 13.784843
7 O_Italian_Dodecad @ 14.510560
8 Sephardic_Jews_Behar @ 15.873102
9 Tuscan_HGDP @ 17.537006
10 Bulgarian_Dodecad @ 17.571768
11 Bulgarians_Yunusbayev @ 18.179565
12 Morocco_Jews_Behar @ 18.707062
13 TSI30_Metspalu @ 18.794348
14 Turkish_Dodecad @ 19.268847
15 Romanians_Behar @ 19.653332
16 Turks_Behar @ 21.751465
17 Cypriots_Behar @ 21.754347
18 N_Italian_Dodecad @ 24.264854
19 Lebanese_Behar @ 24.817680
20 North_Italian_HGDP @ 26.334408

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Bulgarian_Dodecad +50% Sephardic_Jews_Behar @ 4.788048


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Bulgarians_Yunusbayev +25% Morocco_Jews_Behar +25% Turks_Behar @ 2.957572


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Abhkasians_Yunusbayev + Canarias_1000Genomes + Hungarians_Behar + Samaritians_Behar @ 2.222819
2 Adygei_HGDP + Bulgarians_Yunusbayev + Castilla_Y_Leon_1000Genomes + Samaritians_Behar @ 2.440580
3 Canarias_1000Genomes + Georgians_Behar + Hungarians_Behar + Samaritians_Behar @ 2.515424
4 Adygei_HGDP + Bulgarians_Yunusbayev + Canarias_1000Genomes + Samaritians_Behar @ 2.539990
5 Armenians_Behar + Morocco_Jews_Behar + Polish_Dodecad + Sicilian_Dodecad @ 2.543793
6 Balkars_Yunusbayev + Bulgarians_Yunusbayev + Castilla_Y_Leon_1000Genomes + Samaritians_Behar @ 2.556934
7 Adygei_HGDP + Bulgarians_Yunusbayev + Portuguese_Dodecad + Samaritians_Behar @ 2.584952
8 Canarias_1000Genomes + Georgians_Behar + German_Dodecad + Samaritians_Behar @ 2.617464
9 Adygei_HGDP + Canarias_1000Genomes + Romanians_Behar + Samaritians_Behar @ 2.641256
10 Bulgarians_Yunusbayev + Castilla_Y_Leon_1000Genomes + North_Ossetians_Yunusbayev + Samaritians_Behar @ 2.652011
11 Castilla_Y_Leon_1000Genomes + Georgians_Behar + Hungarians_Behar + Samaritians_Behar @ 2.662726
12 Armenians_Behar + Greek_Dodecad + Hungarians_Behar + Morocco_Jews_Behar @ 2.683427
13 Armenians_Behar + Morocco_Jews_Behar + Sicilian_Dodecad + Ukranians_Yunusbayev @ 2.683470
14 Adygei_HGDP + Bulgarian_Dodecad + Castilla_Y_Leon_1000Genomes + Samaritians_Behar @ 2.692459
15 Adygei_HGDP + Bulgarians_Yunusbayev + Samaritians_Behar + Spanish_Dodecad @ 2.720275
16 Georgians_Behar + Hungarians_Behar + Portuguese_Dodecad + Samaritians_Behar @ 2.725828
17 Abhkasians_Yunusbayev + Hungarians_Behar + Murcia_1000Genomes + Samaritians_Behar @ 2.726475
18 Abhkasians_Yunusbayev + Castilla_Y_Leon_1000Genomes + Hungarians_Behar + Samaritians_Behar @ 2.727087
19 Balkars_Yunusbayev + Bulgarian_Dodecad + Castilla_Y_Leon_1000Genomes + Samaritians_Behar @ 2.750077
20 Balkars_Yunusbayev + Bulgarians_Yunusbayev + Samaritians_Behar + Spanish_Dodecad @ 2.756435


I will get the coordinates. I presume it helps with further detailed analysis?

J Man
05-18-2021, 02:51 PM
Hi everyone

I have been reading the threads regularly and I am impressed by the quality of the conversations (most of the time :)) and the knowledge of the regular posters.

I noticed that few people wanted to see more Greek Maniot DNA data (my father is 100% from Laconian Mesa Mani from both sides of his family). I have been tested with FTDNA for Big- Y, Mtdna and also autosomal. I have also run the numbers through GEDMATCH, mytrueancestry, myheritage (results pending).

I know some of the folks here have their own models etc and can run PCA analysis and what not. If someone is keen I am happy to share the raw data.

Here are some results to kick this off:

BIG Y results => J2a1 --> PF421 --> J-Y31951 (FTDNA) & J-Y31950 (Yfull) or FGC68843
MtDNA results --> H1C

Autosomal FTDNA

79% Southern Europe
-Greece & Balkans 71%
- Italian Peninsula 7%
Middle East & North Africa 21%
-Middle East Anatolia, Armenia, & Mesopotamia 14%
- Sephardic Jewish 5%
- Druze <3%
Arabia
- Yemenite Jewish <1%

Autosomal True Ancestry - Modern Populations

1. Central_Greek (5.931)
2. Greek_Crete (7.178)
3. Ashkenazi (7.546)
4. East_Sicilian (7.802)
5. Greek_Islands (7.966)
6. Greek (8.306)
7. Italian_Abruzzo (8.900)
8. South_Italian (9.221)

I have also updated the PCA analysis from True Ancestry (or at least I think I did - first time posting on this forum).

Thoughts / comments?

Welcome! :)

Sorcelow
05-18-2021, 03:55 PM
https://scontent-lga3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/187473553_199666891876435_2252673153418322735_n.pn g?_nc_cat=105&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=ae9488&_nc_ohc=3ThdjxsCjbcAX8Zt2DX&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-2.xx&oh=8cf9bad5f8158ac8ba63b9079f426b96&oe=60CB1886

Here is how you plot compared to other Peloponnesians/Greeks. Despite your Ilian ancestry, you are distant from even the most southern shifted Peloponnesians. You are closest to the northernmost Cretans.

Would it be possible to have your father tested?

tkofi
05-18-2021, 04:08 PM
https://scontent-lga3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/187473553_199666891876435_2252673153418322735_n.pn g?_nc_cat=105&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=ae9488&_nc_ohc=3ThdjxsCjbcAX8Zt2DX&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-2.xx&oh=8cf9bad5f8158ac8ba63b9079f426b96&oe=60CB1886

Here is how you plot compared to other Peloponnesians/Greeks. Despite your Ilian ancestry, you are distant from even the most southern shifted Peloponnesians. You are closest to the northernmost Cretans.

Would it be possible to have your father tested?



Thanks so much my friend.

Unfortunately not, but I can test my aunt (my dad's sister) who is 100% Maniot. Would that help? Any difference if it is the older sister vs. younger sister?

When you talk about north and south do you refer literally to the location's geography? So what does the plot mean for me?

Greekscholar
05-18-2021, 04:10 PM
# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 36.55
2 Atlantic_Med 22.38
3 North_European 19.65
4 Southwest_Asian 9.42
5 Gedrosia 6.2
6 Northwest_African 4.75
7 East_Asian 0.57
8 Siberian 0.47


Those results are similar to mine. My family is from the NE Aegean islands (Fourni/Ikaria/Samos) Thanks for sharing, would you mind posting Eurogenes K15?

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 37.11
2 Atlantic_Med 24.90
3 North_European 15.82
4 Southwest_Asian 12.96
5 Gedrosia 5.45
6 Northwest_African 3.44

Sorcelow
05-18-2021, 04:20 PM
Thanks so much my friend.

Unfortunately not, but I can test my aunt (my dad's sister) who is 100% Maniot. Would that help? Any difference if it is the older sister vs. younger sister?

When you talk about north and south do you refer literally to the location's geography? So what does the plot mean for me?

Yes, It would be great if you could test your aunt. I'm not sure how were results will differ from your fathers, but I suspect they would be very close considering they are siblings.

When I say being northern or southern shifted, I am referring to your genetic distance in relationship to other Greeks. On a pca, certain Greek groups such as Cretans and other Aegean islanders plot closer to near eastern groups than do Peloponnesians, Thessalians, or Macedonians. And these near eastern groups are naturally positioned in more southern locations of the PCA.

Hope that makes some sense. Someone on here can probably explain it better than I can.

tkofi
05-18-2021, 04:23 PM
Those results are similar to mine. My family is from the NE Aegean islands (Fourni/Ikaria/Samos) Thanks for sharing, would you mind posting Eurogenes K15?

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 37.11
2 Atlantic_Med 24.90
3 North_European 15.82
4 Southwest_Asian 12.96
5 Gedrosia 5.45
6 Northwest_African 3.44


Hi there

Here are the Eurogenes EUtest v2 k15 results (I hope that's what you meant):

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Central_Greek @ 5.906805
2 Ashkenazi @ 7.536741
3 East_Sicilian @ 7.788183
4 Greek @ 8.321873
5 Italian_Abruzzo @ 8.889645
6 South_Italian @ 9.216693
7 Greek_Thessaly @ 10.736648
8 West_Sicilian @ 11.767765
9 Sephardic_Jewish @ 13.835996
10 Italian_Jewish @ 13.993834
11 Algerian_Jewish @ 15.419158
12 Tuscan @ 15.735066
13 Bulgarian @ 16.002621
14 Turkish @ 17.270306
15 Tunisian_Jewish @ 17.956125
16 Cyprian @ 18.122393
17 Romanian @ 18.797419
18 Libyan_Jewish @ 20.037935
19 Lebanese_Muslim @ 20.638344
20 Syrian @ 21.650084

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Cyprian +50% Romanian @ 4.044709


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Greek +25% South_Italian +25% Turkish @ 3.156472


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Georgian_Jewish + Greek + Greek + Greek @ 2.234121
2 Armenian + Greek + Greek + Greek @ 2.466218
3 Central_Greek + Greek + Greek + Turkish @ 2.593681
4 Georgian_Jewish + Greek + Greek + Greek_Thessaly @ 2.640789
5 Bulgarian + Georgian_Jewish + Greek + West_Sicilian @ 2.725512
6 Bulgarian + Central_Greek + Georgian_Jewish + Greek @ 2.764057
7 Ashkenazi + Greek + Greek + Turkish @ 2.787539
8 Bulgarian + East_Sicilian + Georgian_Jewish + Greek @ 2.823544
9 Bulgarian + Georgian_Jewish + Greek + South_Italian @ 2.853261
10 Cyprian + Greek + Serbian + Turkish @ 2.872089
11 Algerian_Jewish + Armenian + Bulgarian + Bulgarian @ 2.886799
12 Armenian + Bulgarian + Greek + West_Sicilian @ 2.891560
13 East_Sicilian + Greek + Greek + Turkish @ 2.903420
14 Assyrian + Greek + Greek + Greek @ 2.907462
15 Algerian_Jewish + Armenian + Greek + Romanian @ 2.929767
16 Assyrian + Bulgarian + Central_Greek + Greek @ 2.929958
17 Cyprian + Greek + Romanian + Turkish @ 2.957781
18 Algerian_Jewish + Armenian + Greek + Serbian @ 2.979236
19 Algerian_Jewish + Armenian + Bulgarian + Greek @ 3.001662
20 Azeri + Central_Greek + Greek + Greek @ 3.014127

by the way it seems like G25 coordinates are not sold at the moment by Davinski?
https://bga101.blogspot.com/

Markos
05-18-2021, 04:25 PM
Could you post the individual components of these calculators as well and not just the oracle? How many SNPs?

Greekscholar
05-18-2021, 04:33 PM
Yes, but please include the individual components too. I can plot that data on a PCA with other samples gathered from GEDmatch. I think it will help show what other posters here are saying about your genetic profile being shifted "south" towards the Aegean Islands.

The Eurogenes store is not selling G25 right now. Some other posters have mentioned other ways of purchasing them, but I don't know the specifics.

tkofi
05-18-2021, 04:36 PM
Could you post the individual components of these calculators as well and not just the oracle? How many SNPs?

Hi Markos

A bit new to this. How would i go about that? I am using GEDMATCH

Unrelated to DNA testing: Do you actually live in Seoul? I used to live there till recently and have strong ties there :).

tkofi
05-18-2021, 04:40 PM
Yes, but please include the individual components too. I can plot that data on a PCA with other samples gathered from GEDmatch. I think it will help show what other posters here are saying about your genetic profile being shifted "south" towards the Aegean Islands.

The Eurogenes store is not selling G25 right now. Some other posters have mentioned other ways of purchasing them, but I don't know the specifics.

Are the individual components what i see in the "Spreadsheet" after I run the calculator?

Markos
05-18-2021, 04:48 PM
Hi Markos

A bit new to this. How would i go about that? I am using GEDMATCH

Unrelated to DNA testing: Do you actually live in Seoul? I used to live there till recently and have strong ties there :).

Oh, no way! That's awesome. I am originally from there but don't live there currently. We should chat about it! B)

So you will see the individual components first before clicking on the oracle buttons. They are the numbers and categories listed next to your big pie chart. You will also see them organized above your oracle results as well. As for SNP's, on the exact same page as you see the big pie chart, just scroll all the way down and it should say, "SNPs used in this evaluation", followed by a number. Would be interesting to know what that number is for you.

Michalis Moriopoulos
05-18-2021, 04:49 PM
Welcome to the forum. It is likely that I have paternal ancestry from Mani as well considering my own personal Gedmatch matches. My own Y haplogroup is consistent with that as well.

Maniates are the most East Mediterranean (islander-like)-shifted mainlanders, but I am surprised by how close you are to Cretans given half of your ancestry is from Ilia. I would be very interested in seeing how your father's sister plots. She may be the most southern-plotting Peloponnesian we've seen yet.

Greekscholar
05-18-2021, 04:50 PM
This part:

:)

Population
North_Sea 10.51 Pct
Atlantic 10.8 Pct
Baltic 3.74 Pct
Eastern_Euro 4.75 Pct
West_Med 18.23 Pct
West_Asian 15.97 Pct
East_Med 30.42 Pct
Red_Sea 5.47 Pct
South_Asian -
Southeast_Asian 0.06 Pct
Siberian -
Amerindian -
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan

tkofi
05-18-2021, 05:11 PM
Eurogenes k15

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 26.04
2 West_Asian 18.12
3 West_Med 15.08
4 Atlantic 11.99
5 Baltic 8.23
6 North_Sea 7.58
7 Eastern_Euro 7.00
8 Red_Sea 4.19



SNPs used in this evaluation: 78536.

Markos
05-18-2021, 05:15 PM
Eurogenes k15

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 26.04
2 West_Asian 18.12
3 West_Med 15.08
4 Atlantic 11.99
5 Baltic 8.23
6 North_Sea 7.58
7 Eastern_Euro 7.00
8 Red_Sea 4.19



SNPs used in this evaluation: 78536.

Dang. Those are very few SNPs. Hard to take the results too literally now. But from what I understand low SNPs don't usually effect your PCA plotting.

Greekscholar
05-18-2021, 05:33 PM
Here you are plotted. K15 is an older test and these samples are either cousin matches on GEDmatch or self-reported by users here. Since G25 isn't available, it is the best I can do for now.

You are the dark green dot by "S. Italian." You can see that the other Mainland samples are to the "north" of you on this PCA, and your closest matches among Greeks are Fourniotes, Ikarians, Chiotes. I think these results are interesting. As others have said, you are plotting well south of other Peloponnesean samples we have seen, even Maniotes.

Do you have any DNA matches from the Islands? Even distant ones?

tkofi
05-18-2021, 06:37 PM
Here you are plotted. K15 is an older test and these samples are either cousin matches on GEDmatch or self-reported by users here. Since G25 isn't available, it is the best I can do for now.

You are the dark green dot by "S. Italian." You can see that the other Mainland samples are to the "north" of you on this PCA, and your closest matches among Greeks are Fourniotes, Ikarians, Chiotes. I think these results are interesting. As others have said, you are plotting well south of other Peloponnesean samples we have seen, even Maniotes.

Do you have any DNA matches from the Islands? Even distant ones?

I have talked to several people and none seems to be from the those 3-4 islands.

Greekscholar
05-18-2021, 07:51 PM
I have talked to several people and none seems to be from the those 3-4 islands.

Thanks. That roughly 'middle position' among Greeks you occupy on the PCA could come from a variety of different regional Greek backgrounds. I didn't mean to suggest you had ancestry from those islands, specifically.

tkofi
05-19-2021, 01:46 AM
Thanks. That roughly 'middle position' among Greeks you occupy on the PCA could come from a variety of different regional Greek backgrounds. I didn't mean to suggest you had ancestry from those islands, specifically.

No worries.

At some point I will post my family’s ethnic backgrounds based on oral tradition. I dont want to do it just now to avoid prejudicing the good analysis you guys do.

Keen to hear some guesses on non- Greek admixture;)

Cheers

tkofi
05-19-2021, 01:50 AM
What do you guys think about the Shephardic / Yemeni Jew and Druze % I get from FTDNA?

Background infor: I also have a Druze match for my Y terminal halpogroup.

Any other Greeks get that?

Also is the Jewish % high/ low / expected?

Greekscholar
05-19-2021, 01:17 PM
No worries.

At some point I will post my family’s ethnic backgrounds based on oral tradition. I dont want to do it just now to avoid prejudicing the good analysis you guys do.

Keen to hear some guesses on non- Greek admixture;)

Cheers

I am not sure what else can be done without G25. We have already recognized your profile would be uniquely south-shifted for a 50% Maniot + 50% Elis. If you have known ancestry that explains why you are plotting more towards the Islands, now is probably the time to share.

Greekscholar
05-19-2021, 01:25 PM
What do you guys think about the Shephardic / Yemeni Jew and Druze % I get from FTDNA?

Background infor: I also have a Druze match for my Y terminal halpogroup.

Any other Greeks get that?

Also is the Jewish % high/ low / expected?

I am not sure about FTDNA specifically, but commercial services assigning (or misassigning) Jewish ancestry to Greeks is common. It happens to some of my family members on MyHeritage and previous updates of Ancestry.com The same is true with GEDmatch as you see below.

K15
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 30.42
2 West_Med 18.23
3 West_Asian 15.97
4 Atlantic 10.80
5 North_Sea 10.51
6 Red_Sea 5.47
7 Eastern_Euro 4.75
8 Baltic 3.74


Finished reading population data. 207 populations found.
15 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Central_Greek @ 5.714446
2 South_Italian @ 5.912046
3 East_Sicilian @ 6.292540
4 Ashkenazi @ 7.471300
5 Italian_Jewish @ 8.037506
6 Italian_Abruzzo @ 9.030606
7 Sephardic_Jewish @ 9.678294
8 West_Sicilian @ 10.247114
9 Algerian_Jewish @ 10.362836
10 Greek_Thessaly @ 12.651777
11 Greek @ 12.674233
12 Tunisian_Jewish @ 13.890982
13 Libyan_Jewish @ 14.292525
14 Cyprian @ 14.701978
15 Tuscan @ 15.574211
16 Lebanese_Muslim @ 18.596678
17 Syrian @ 19.485775
18 Turkish @ 19.798546
19 Bulgarian @ 21.450108
20 Samaritan @ 22.281452

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Central_Greek +50% Italian_Jewish @ 4.621356


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Kurdish_Jewish +25% Sardinian +25% West_German @ 3.899656


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++
1 Kurdish_Jewish + Kurdish_Jewish + Sardinian + West_German @ 3.899656
2 Georgian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze + Sardinian + Serbian @ 3.911414
3 Armenian + Lebanese_Druze + Sardinian + Serbian @ 3.921503
4 Assyrian + Lebanese_Druze + Sardinian + Serbian @ 3.958052
5 Georgian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze + Sardinian + West_German @ 4.050587
6 Cyprian + Greek_Thessaly + Italian_Abruzzo + Italian_Jewish @ 4.057329
7 Kurdish_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze + Sardinian + West_German @ 4.107918
8 Central_Greek + Cyprian + Greek_Thessaly + Italian_Jewish @ 4.118338
9 Assyrian + Lebanese_Druze + Sardinian + West_German @ 4.122195
10 Central_Greek + Central_Greek + Central_Greek + Libyan_Jewish @ 4.159606
11 Cyprian + Cyprian + Greek_Thessaly + North_Italian @ 4.178061
12 Cyprian + Cyprian + Greek_Thessaly + Tuscan @ 4.182823
13 Central_Greek + Central_Greek + Lebanese_Christian + Tuscan @ 4.196529
14 Greek_Thessaly + Italian_Jewish + Kurdish_Jewish + Tuscan @ 4.269706
15 Cyprian + Greek_Thessaly + Kurdish_Jewish + Portuguese @ 4.277859
16 Central_Greek + Central_Greek + Cyprian + Italian_Abruzzo @ 4.279797
17 Central_Greek + Central_Greek + Central_Greek + Cyprian @ 4.293179
18 Central_Greek + Cyprian + Cyprian + North_Italian @ 4.306610
19 Central_Greek + Italian_Jewish + Kurdish_Jewish + North_Italian @ 4.307664
20 Cyprian + Cyprian + Cyprian + French @ 4.310461

XXD
05-19-2021, 04:49 PM
No worries.

At some point I will post my family’s ethnic backgrounds based on oral tradition. I dont want to do it just now to avoid prejudicing the good analysis you guys do.

Keen to hear some guesses on non- Greek admixture;)

Cheers

Tell us more, it will be very interesting!

When you said your mom is from Ilia, I expected you to plot more like an average Peloponnesian or a Central Greek, as Ilia has one of the highest numbers of Slavic toponyms, and was at the forefront of Slavic occupation. I would have expected most people from Ilia to be fairly north-shifted.

It either means your dad is uber south-shifted, or your mom is quite south-shifted as well.

23abc
05-19-2021, 06:08 PM
Your position is off in Greekscholar's K15 chart. Perhaps a mistake was made?

Here is one I made.

https://imgur.com/h3a7nRR.png

Your coord at least seems to give a strong Anatolian pull. Dosas is 50% Pontic and my mum is probably 25% Anatolian of some sort. And along with them, you also shift rightwards due to higher than normal West Asian admixture (Armenian, Caucasian, etc.) picked up the calculator.

Perhaps it's due to low quality raw data, or perhaps you have a recent ancestor (grandparent?) from Anatolia?

Very interesting nonetheless.

Greekscholar
05-19-2021, 06:28 PM
Your position is off in Greekscholar's K15 chart. Perhaps a mistake was made?

Here is one I made.

https://imgur.com/VmhigGE.png

Your coord at least gives a strong Anatolian pull. Dosas is 50% Pontic and my mum is probably 25% Anatolian of some sort. And you also shift rightwards due to higher than normal West Asian admixture (Armenian, Caucasian, etc.) for the region.

Perhaps it's due to low quality raw data, or perhaps you have a recent ancestor (grandparent?) from Anatolia?

Did you get 577,448 on Taxe de Similitude with about 2% of the data missing? Your PCA looks more accurate based on the raw result and other data he posted.

23abc
05-19-2021, 06:33 PM
Did you get 577,448 on Taxe de Similitude with about 2% of the data missing? Your PCA looks more accurate based on the raw result and other data he posted.

99.99% (649, 406).

Perhaps different because I took his coords directly from gedmatch.

Greekscholar
05-19-2021, 06:35 PM
99.99% (649, 406).

Perhaps different because I took his coords directly from gedmatch.

Yes, that's the difference. I used the data posted in this thread that were missing about 2% of the total results. Thanks for digging deeper. That 2% makes a huge difference!

23abc
05-19-2021, 06:40 PM
Yes, that's the difference. I used the coords posted in this thread that were missing about 2% of the total results. Thanks for digging deeper. That 2% makes a huge difference!

Although the ancestry described in the opening post doesn't really match the coords position either way. Either the poor data from FTDNA v2 caused it or there is more to OP's ancestry than we know.

Sorcelow
05-19-2021, 06:43 PM
Here are some two way oracle results I obtained from your Dodecad K12b results. You have more west Asian ancestry compared to the average for Sparta proper. The fit isnt that great, but you get the point. It would really be interesting to see your Aunt's results.

"86.2% Greek_Northwest_Laconia (N=9) + 13.8% Georgian_Mingrelian" "4.1432"

Greekscholar
05-19-2021, 06:53 PM
Although the ancestry described in the opening post doesn't really match the coords position either way. Either the poor data from FTDNA v2 caused it or there is more to OP's ancestry than we know.

He is a bit off the mainland-island cline on the FTDNA PCA too though, so I think this isn't a case of 50% Maniote + 50% Elis. OP has already teased that he knows more about his origin than was originally shared. I think you and Sorcelow probably have it right, more Anatolian-like ancestry.

tkofi
05-19-2021, 08:44 PM
I didnt mean to cause drama or “ tease”. I genuinely wanted to see the analysis and educated guesses first. Otherwise we can easily fall in the fallacy of confirmation bias (ie fitting the data to the narrative)

I dont have any great grandparents from Anatolia or anything else “exotic”. Actually here is my “ethnic” ancestry:

- paternal grandfather and ancestors: Mesa Mani for at least 300 -400 years
- paternal grandmother and ancestors: Mesa Mani for at least 150 years (probably further back)
- maternal grandfather and great grandfather : Elia for as far as we know (surname possibly of Venetian origin, same surname encountered in Chios and Crete)
- maternal grandmother and great grandparents : predominantly Arberesh based on oral tradition (no Albanian spoken by my great grandparents nor their parents ) with probably some non Arberesh marriages (yet still Elia individuals) at the great grandparent x2 level and further upstream

Not sure if that helps? Looking forward to hearing your thoughts

Greekscholar
05-20-2021, 12:24 AM
I didnt mean to cause drama or “ tease”. I genuinely wanted to see the analysis and educated guesses first. Otherwise we can easily fall in the fallacy of confirmation bias (ie fitting the data to the narrative)

I dont have any great grandparents from Anatolia or anything else “exotic”. Actually here is my “ethnic” ancestry:

- paternal grandfather and ancestors: Mesa Mani for at least 300 -400 years
- paternal grandmother and ancestors: Mesa Mani for at least 150 years (probably further back)
- maternal grandfather and great grandfather : Elia for as far as we know (surname possibly of Venetian origin, same surname encountered in Chios and Crete)
- maternal grandmother and great grandparents : predominantly Arberesh based on oral tradition (no Albanian spoken by my great grandparents nor their parents ) with probably some non Arberesh marriages (yet still Elia individuals) at the great grandparent x2 level and further upstream

Not sure if that helps? Looking forward to hearing your thoughts

Well if my incorrect K15 PCA had been accurate we would seen that Italian! ;)

Otherwise, I am stumped. Having Arvanite ancestry shouldn't shift you south and east towards West Asia like that. The Arvanite samples we see cluster with Mainland Greeks/Albanians. Hopefully you can get G25 and some other family members tested.

tkofi
05-20-2021, 03:52 AM
Well if my incorrect K15 PCA had been accurate we would seen that Italian! ;)

Otherwise, I am stumped. Having Arvanite ancestry shouldn't shift you south and east towards West Asia like that. The Arvanite samples we see cluster with Mainland Greeks/Albanians. Hopefully you can get G25 and some other family members tested.

Thanks for the comment.

How is West Asia defined in this context? Would that include the Middle East (Levant, Mesopotamia, Anatolia)? And how recent of an ancestor would that be?

The Italian is not confirmed as surnames are not always directly related to ethnicity. I believe farmers were often taking the surname of their feudal overlords?

Thanks again

Johnny ola
05-20-2021, 07:04 AM
Thanks for the comment.

How is West Asia defined in this context? Would that include the Middle East (Levant, Mesopotamia, Anatolia)? And how recent of an ancestor would that be?

The Italian is not confirmed as surnames are not always directly related to ethnicity. I believe farmers were often taking the surname of their feudal overlords?

Thanks again

Anatolian-Levantine mostly. Prolly from hellenistic or Roman times.

Can you post your k13?

It seems from the results you posted that you don't fall in the mainland cluster.

23abc
05-20-2021, 08:40 AM
Thanks for the comment.

How is West Asia defined in this context? Would that include the Middle East (Levant, Mesopotamia, Anatolia)? And how recent of an ancestor would that be?

The Italian is not confirmed as surnames are not always directly related to ethnicity. I believe farmers were often taking the surname of their feudal overlords?

Thanks again

You score more or less the same (if not a little lower) East Med than the Mani samples I've seen. But at the same time you score much more West Asian. That means in particular it is an Anatolian/Caucasian shift, not a Levantine shift. Like I mentioned, this could be an artifact of low SNP overlap between your raw data and the calculator. But as it stands, your plot position is very far from the expected position.

tkofi
05-20-2021, 10:20 AM
Anatolian-Levantine mostly. Prolly from hellenistic or Roman times.

Can you post your k13?

It seems from the results you posted that you don't fall in the mainland cluster.


Eurogenes k13 below

North_Atlantic 13.75 Pct
Baltic 13.93 Pct
West_Med 19.08 Pct
West_Asian 17.47 Pct
East_Med 29.15 Pct
Red_Sea 3.86 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian 1.54 Pct
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.59 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African 0.64 Pct
Sub-Saharan -

SNPs used in this evaluation: 77916.

lacreme
05-20-2021, 10:38 AM
Also 2% East Asian and Amerindian ? Could it be that there is some Balkan Turkic and or "Turk-albanian" ancestry in one of your ancestral Elis settlements ?

Johnny ola
05-20-2021, 11:44 AM
Eurogenes k13 below

North_Atlantic 13.75 Pct
Baltic 13.93 Pct
West_Med 19.08 Pct
West_Asian 17.47 Pct
East_Med 29.15 Pct
Red_Sea 3.86 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian 1.54 Pct
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.59 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African 0.64 Pct
Sub-Saharan -

SNPs used in this evaluation: 77916.

Post your modern pops list not just the admixtures.

tkofi
05-20-2021, 11:46 AM
My GS25 coordinates


Than_Kofi_scaled,0.111547,0.142174,-0.003394,-0.041021,0.009232,-0.006414,0.001175,-0.006231,-0.005931,0.00893,0.001624,-0.00015,-0.001189,0.00812,-0.015608,-0.005038,0.01369,-0.002534,-0.004777,-0.006128,0,-0.002844,0.006532,0.00012,-0.003113
Than_Kofi,0.0098,0.014,-0.0009,-0.0127,0.003,-0.0023,0.0005,-0.0027,-0.0029,0.0049,0.001,-0.0001,-0.0008,0.0059,-0.0115,-0.0038,0.0105,-0.002,-0.0038,-0.0049,0,-0.0023,0.0053,0.0001,-0.0026

XXD
05-20-2021, 12:12 PM
My GS25 coordinates


Than_Kofi_scaled,0.111547,0.142174,-0.003394,-0.041021,0.009232,-0.006414,0.001175,-0.006231,-0.005931,0.00893,0.001624,-0.00015,-0.001189,0.00812,-0.015608,-0.005038,0.01369,-0.002534,-0.004777,-0.006128,0,-0.002844,0.006532,0.00012,-0.003113
Than_Kofi,0.0098,0.014,-0.0009,-0.0127,0.003,-0.0023,0.0005,-0.0027,-0.0029,0.0049,0.001,-0.0001,-0.0008,0.0059,-0.0115,-0.0038,0.0105,-0.002,-0.0038,-0.0049,0,-0.0023,0.0053,0.0001,-0.0026

My first model with your ancestry, others will certainly come with better ones:

Target: Than_Kofi_scaled
Distance: 0.01748355 / 1.7483%

27.6 TUR_Isparta_EBA
22.0 Krakauer_Medieval_Slav
21.0 Iberia_Empuries_Ancient_Greek
17.6 ITA_Rome_Imperial
9.4 RUS_Darkveti_Meshoko
1.6 MAR_Taforalt
0.8 Han


It might be overfitted, so if I remove Empuries:

Target: Than_Kofi_scaled
Distance: 0.01884739 / 1.8847%

33.2 TUR_Isparta_EBA
22.4 Krakauer_Medieval_Slav
38.4 ITA_Rome_Imperial
4.4 RUS_Darkveti_Meshoko
0.8 MAR_Taforalt
0.8 Han


Not sure if you need the Darkveti Meshoko source to model for Caucasian-related ancestry. However you have a strong Anatolian signal.

44720

As you can see, you plot quite more South than most pure Maniots, close to Cretans. You need to test your parents, they might have some very interesting genetics. So far, you are unlike the few Maniots we have seen.

XXD
05-20-2021, 12:17 PM
Distance to: Than_Kofi_scaled
0.02174630 Greek_Crete:749
0.02598653 Greek_Izmir:GreecePhokaia60
0.02662744 Greek_Crete:735
0.02679991 Greek_Crete:738
0.02683669 Greek_Crete:774
0.02694816 Greek_Crete:778
0.02791172 Greek_Peloponnese:GreeceNE252
0.02800036 Greek_Crete:Crete3
0.02818642 Greek_Crete:788
0.02823299 Greek_Crete:808
0.02874352 Greek_Crete:782
0.02878493 Greek_Crete:B_Crete-1
0.02901320 Greek_Crete:800
0.02906210 Greek_Crete:745
0.02912476 Greek_Izmir:GreeceF69k
0.02916658 Greek_Crete:813
0.02929466 Greek_Crete:807
0.02946634 Greek_Izmir:GreeceF51k
0.03014267 Greek_Crete:804
0.03028805 Greek_Izmir:GreeceF52k
0.03033187 Greek_Crete:Crete4
0.03047148 Greek_Izmir:GreeceSmyrna58
0.03049759 Greek_Crete:755
0.03067288 Greek_Crete:803
0.03082730 Greek_Crete:779


You primarily plot with Cretans and Asia minor Greeks.

If I run all modern Greek populations against you on Vahaduo, you score something like 16% Trabzon. It may or may not be true, but you probably have something from Asia Minor that is Anatolian-Caucasian shifted.

Johnny ola
05-20-2021, 12:35 PM
Distance to: Than_Kofi_scaled
0.02174630 Greek_Crete:749
0.02598653 Greek_Izmir:GreecePhokaia60
0.02662744 Greek_Crete:735
0.02679991 Greek_Crete:738
0.02683669 Greek_Crete:774
0.02694816 Greek_Crete:778
0.02791172 Greek_Peloponnese:GreeceNE252
0.02800036 Greek_Crete:Crete3
0.02818642 Greek_Crete:788
0.02823299 Greek_Crete:808
0.02874352 Greek_Crete:782
0.02878493 Greek_Crete:B_Crete-1
0.02901320 Greek_Crete:800
0.02906210 Greek_Crete:745
0.02912476 Greek_Izmir:GreeceF69k
0.02916658 Greek_Crete:813
0.02929466 Greek_Crete:807
0.02946634 Greek_Izmir:GreeceF51k
0.03014267 Greek_Crete:804
0.03028805 Greek_Izmir:GreeceF52k
0.03033187 Greek_Crete:Crete4
0.03047148 Greek_Izmir:GreeceSmyrna58
0.03049759 Greek_Crete:755
0.03067288 Greek_Crete:803
0.03082730 Greek_Crete:779


You primarily plot with Cretans and Asia minor Greeks.

If I run all modern Greek populations against you on Vahaduo, you score something like 16% Trabzon. It may or may not be true, but you probably have something from Asia Minor that is Anatolian-Caucasian shifted.

He has nothing recent From Asia Minor. He has typical South Greek results. Obviously highly Rome Imperial input, lower Slavic compared To mainland Greeks and thats why he plots near Cretans. I am very intrested to see his mother's results btw.She might be more Southern shifted as well.

tkofi
05-20-2021, 02:03 PM
Thanks

My ancient DNA results below - if they have any significance


Byzantine + Hellenic Roman (5.305)
Seleucid + Hellenic Roman (5.946)
Seleucid + Roman (8.014)
Hellenic Roman + Roman (8.313)
Byzantine + Roman (8.538)
Hellenic Roman (11.23)
Seleucid (11.59)
Pontic (13.7)
Byzantine (13.87)
Roman (13.93)

Greekscholar
05-20-2021, 02:12 PM
Here is a standard Neolithic calculator. You score more CHG/Iran_N and Natufian than the Mainland sample averages and less EEF and Steppe-like ancestry. As with the other models you have seen, you are more similar to the more Steppe-heavy Cretan samples and Smyrniotes. I included my family because you are rather close to us as well. All that said, your distance to the Laconia average is low as well.



Target: Than_Kofi_scaled
Distance: 3.0222% / 0.03022197
52.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
25.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
11.4 GEO_CHG
7.8 Levant_Natufian
3.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

Target: Greek_Laconia
Distance: 2.5835% / 0.02583543
56.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
29.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
7.8 Levant_Natufian
3.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
2.0 GEO_CHG
0.4 Baltic_LVA_HG

Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 2.3069% / 0.02306944
56.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
31.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
4.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
4.8 Levant_Natufian
1.4 Baltic_LVA_HG
0.8 GEO_CHG

Target: Greek_Crete
Distance: 2.1713% / 0.02171296
53.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
21.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
9.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
8.6 Levant_Natufian
7.4 GEO_CHG

Target: GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
Distance: 3.1249% / 0.03124941
55.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
23.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
9.8 Levant_Natufian
7.8 GEO_CHG
3.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N


Distance to: Than_Kofi_scaled
0.02313316 Greek_Smyrna
0.02413680 Greek_Crete
0.02604117 GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
0.02611912 Greek_Laconia
0.02910972 GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):GS_Dad(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos)
0.02967954 Greek_Peloponnese
0.03248454 GS_family(Fourni/Ikaria/Samos):YiaYia(Fourni/Ikaria)
0.03359453 Greek_Kos
0.03841156 Greek_Thessaly
0.03844645 Greek_Dodecanese
0.03914465 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03988749 Greek_Macedonia

Agamemnon
05-20-2021, 02:22 PM
My GS25 coordinates


Than_Kofi_scaled,0.111547,0.142174,-0.003394,-0.041021,0.009232,-0.006414,0.001175,-0.006231,-0.005931,0.00893,0.001624,-0.00015,-0.001189,0.00812,-0.015608,-0.005038,0.01369,-0.002534,-0.004777,-0.006128,0,-0.002844,0.006532,0.00012,-0.003113
Than_Kofi,0.0098,0.014,-0.0009,-0.0127,0.003,-0.0023,0.0005,-0.0027,-0.0029,0.0049,0.001,-0.0001,-0.0008,0.0059,-0.0115,-0.0038,0.0105,-0.002,-0.0038,-0.0049,0,-0.0023,0.0053,0.0001,-0.0026

You seem to be within Cretan variation (which I'd interpret as West Cretan at first glance):

https://i.imgur.com/xLrw1LF.png

You're also quite close to my father, which only reinforces my assumption that Maniots (along with other North Aegean & Ionian islanders) should be close to Ashkenazim on average:

https://i.imgur.com/TpVX05A.png

Greekscholar
05-20-2021, 02:40 PM
Here is "the big Greek L" PCA. You will find yourself just north of the big Cretan cluster and close to the grey triangles that are the Smyrniotes. Notice that while you are close to the Laconian average, you are not very near the few individual samples on G25 from there (XXD's list of your closest individual matches confirms this.) To repeat what a few others have said already, this probably means either both of your parents are more southern-shifted than the average Peloponnesean, or your father's family plots even more to the south than you do.

Working with G25 puts you "back on the cline" as well, meaning the extra Anatolian/West Asian is being plotted as "Aegean-like" rather than pushing you off the main cline to the east like we see with folks who are 1/2 or 1/4 Anatolian Greek.



https://imgur.com/Ln3wd2Y.jpeg

Sorcelow
05-20-2021, 02:46 PM
Assuming that your mother's profile is that of the current Peloponnesian G25 average, I created simulated coordinates for your father. These simulated coordinates plot with the most southern, CHG/IranN shifted Cretans.

Tkofi_Father_Simulated,0.105982704,0.140067556,-0.014693593,-0.055221037,-0.001220519,-0.00342837,-0.000739889,-0.012128778,-0.013649704,0.003605074,-9.5963E-05,-0.001582185,7.2185E-05,0.010500593,-0.015281519,-0.008995519,0.022068037,-0.005968852,-0.015620037,-0.006957259,0.006336074,-0.006622222,0.008449074,-0.001281815,-0.004904333

https://scontent-lga3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/187928878_246794007241266_9148709066894998755_n.pn g?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=ae9488&_nc_ohc=ZBGZRGNk9FYAX-j-LwB&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-2.xx&oh=3428dc73f6a0f97d8fd20310bccef60e&oe=60CDDB25

Johnny ola
05-20-2021, 03:05 PM
Target: Than_Kofi_scaled
Distance: 1.6489% / 0.01648921
27.4 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
26.8 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
25.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad
11.0 Levant_Megiddo_IA
9.4 RUS_North_Caucasus_MBA


Distance to: Than_Kofi_scaled
0.02313316 Greek_Izmir
0.02413680 Greek_Crete
0.02611912 Greek_Laconia
0.02715954 Italian_Basilicata
0.02884481 Italian_Apulia
0.02967954 Greek_Peloponnese
0.03025684 Italian_Calabria
0.03037564 Italian_Molise
0.03132151 Italian_Campania
0.03164630 Italian_Abruzzo
0.03174595 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.03199655 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.03240150 Ashkenazi_Russia
0.03359453 Greek_Kos
0.03363880 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.03463166 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.03637372 Sicilian_East
0.03678427 Rumelia_East
0.03841156 Greek_Thessaly
0.03844645 Greek_Dodecanese
0.03852564 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.03902430 Italian_Marche
0.03907885 Sicilian_West
0.03914465 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03986448 Italian_Umbria

Btw for some reason you score something North.African.Might be overfiting not sure about it.


Target: Than_Kofi_scaled
Distance: 1.2467% / 0.01246721
54.4 Greek_Laconia
17.2 Rumelia_East
12.8 Turkish_Trabzon
9.4 Georgian_Laz
3.2 Berber_Tunisia_Chen
1.4 Macedonian
1.0 Lithuanian_RA
0.6 Surui


Target: Than_Kofi_scaled
Distance: 0.8963% / 0.00896296
21.4 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan
19.2 DEU_MA_o
13.4 GRC_Helladic_EBA
10.6 KAZ_Golden_Horde_Euro
7.4 GRC_N
7.0 Baltic_LTU_Late_Antiquity_low_res
6.2 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
5.0 Levant_PPNC
4.0 TUR_IA_low_res
3.0 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LC
1.4 MAR_EN
1.4 PER_LaGalgada_4100BP

tkofi
05-20-2021, 03:28 PM
You seem to be within Cretan variation (which I'd interpret as West Cretan at first glance):

https://i.imgur.com/xLrw1LF.png

You're also quite close to my father, which only reinforces my assumption that Maniots (along with other North Aegean & Ionian islanders) should be close to Ashkenazim on average:

https://i.imgur.com/TpVX05A.png

Thanks a lot.

Two questions:

1) what samples does the Ancient Greek cluster comprise? Mycenean & Minoan?

2) can you superimpose some titles for the rest of the clusters so I know what it shows? Maybe not for all but at least for the peripheral ones to understand the trends directionally

tkofi
05-20-2021, 03:33 PM
Here is "the big Greek L" PCA. You will find yourself just north of the big Cretan cluster and close to the grey triangles that are the Smyrniotes. Notice that while you are close to the Laconian average, you are not very near the few individual samples on G25 from there (XXD's list of your closest individual matches confirms this.) To repeat what a few others have said already, this probably means either both of your parents are more southern-shifted than the average Peloponnesean, or your father's family plots even more to the south than you do.

Working with G25 puts you "back on the cline" as well, meaning the extra Anatolian/West Asian is being plotted as "Aegean-like" rather than pushing you off the main cline to the east like we see with folks who are 1/2 or 1/4 Anatolian Greek.



https://imgur.com/Ln3wd2Y.jpeg



Which makes sense since I have the Elia component pushing me north?

Also, I am not surprised by the difference vs Laconia average since the Mesa Mani ancestry differs a fair bit from the rest of Laconia (plus I have the Elia 50%).

Agamemnon
05-20-2021, 06:27 PM
Thanks a lot.

Two questions:

1) what samples does the Ancient Greek cluster comprise? Mycenean & Minoan?

2) can you superimpose some titles for the rest of the clusters so I know what it shows? Maybe not for all but at least for the peripheral ones to understand the trends directionally

To answer your first question, the Ancient Greek cluster comprises GRC_Mycenaean, Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2, ITA_Sardinia_Late_Antiquity and one of the Levant_Ashkelon_IA1 samples (ASH068). The Minoans are the red crosses immediately at the right hand side of the Ancient Greek cluster.

As for your second question, here are two fairly recent versions of this East Med PCA, the first highlighting all Greek groups:

https://i.imgur.com/OwvwwKx.png

And the second highlighting Western Jewish groups:

https://i.imgur.com/EPO2HQ3.png

Greekscholar
05-20-2021, 08:40 PM
Which makes sense since I have the Elia component pushing me north?

Also, I am not surprised by the difference vs Laconia average since the Mesa Mani ancestry differs a fair bit from the rest of Laconia (plus I have the Elia 50%).

Every individual is unique. Between posters here and the G25 samples, we have a large range of profiles for Peloponneseans. It's hard to say how much of what you are seeing is from Mesa Mani and how much is from Elis without testing other family members. It is possible that both of your parents are more south-shifted and thus you are too. It is possible that your father's genetic profile is even more CHG/Iran_N heavy and is being balanced by your mother's family more Steppe-heavy profile.

Either way you have piqued our interest here!

Johnny ola
05-21-2021, 07:01 AM
Every individual is unique. Between posters here and the G25 samples, we have a large range of profiles for Peloponneseans. It's hard to say how much of what you are seeing is from Mesa Mani and how much is from Elis without testing other family members. It is possible that both of your parents are more south-shifted and thus you are too. It is possible that your father's genetic profile is even more CHG/Iran_N heavy and is being balanced by your mother's family more Steppe-heavy profile.

Either way you have piqued our interest here!

I think his father results will be Cretan like while his mother might be close to the Laconian samples we have and to other more Southern Peloponnese samples we have seen so long.There is not any other explanation of his autosomal IMO.

TonyC
05-21-2021, 11:19 AM
I think his father results will be Cretan like while his mother might be close to the Laconian samples we have and to other more Southern Peloponnese samples we have seen so long.There is not any other explanation of his autosomal IMO.

How would you explain such an Eastern shift in a deep Maniote? I can understand the lack of Slavic admixture. Could it be the result of repopulation from Anatolia during the latter Byzantine era?

Johnny ola
05-21-2021, 03:16 PM
How would you explain such an Eastern shift in a deep Maniote? I can understand the lack of Slavic admixture. Could it be the result of repopulation from Anatolia during the latter Byzantine era?

There are 2 options.Either Peloponnese and other parts of mainland Greece before the Slavic migrations were genetically Like Crete and Dodecanese with decent amounts of Imperial Rome admixture....Or some people in Mani have Cretan background. I mean migrations From Crete to south Peloponnese during the periods. Btw In Stamatayanoppulos study/paper Maniots seems to be between Crete and Mainalnd Greece. It is for sure a place/area that it dosnt affected much From the Barbarian migrations.

tkofi
05-22-2021, 03:39 AM
There is an interesting legend in my family saying that my paternal line descends from Arab/ “Algerian” / Saracen pirates. The name of our clan is Smailians (Σμαηλιανοι) and they used to have the surname Σμαηλης or Σμαιλης. There is connection to the Αραβουχιοι clan of Vathia village (also in Mesa Mani).

However I am not sure if that legend chimes with my autosomal results. Could be Cretan based pirates who emigrated to Mani? The Σμαιλης surname is also found in Sfakia, Crete (but also other parts of Greece).

Thoughts?

lacreme
05-22-2021, 10:32 AM
There is an interesting legend in my family saying that my paternal line descends from Arab/ “Algerian” / Saracen pirates. The name of our clan is Smailians (Σμαηλιανοι) and they used to have the surname Σμαηλης or Σμαιλης. There is connection to the Αραβουχιοι clan of Vathia village (also in Mesa Mani).

However I am not sure if that legend chimes with my autosomal results. Could be Cretan based pirates who emigrated to Mani? The Σμαιλης surname is also found in Sfakia, Crete (but also other parts of Greece).

Thoughts?

Do you mind sending me your gedmatch kit number over pm and your current surname too if it's not Σμαιλης anymore ? .My friend's mother has partial ancestry from Sfakia, it would be interesting to check for any common matches
(I will send her kit in return )

Kanenas
05-22-2021, 10:35 AM
There is an interesting legend in my family saying that my paternal line descends from Arab/ “Algerian” / Saracen pirates. The name of our clan is Smailians (Σμαηλιανοι) and they used to have the surname Σμαηλης or Σμαιλης. There is connection to the Αραβουχιοι clan of Vathia village (also in Mesa Mani).

However I am not sure if that legend chimes with my autosomal results. Could be Cretan based pirates who emigrated to Mani? The Σμαιλης surname is also found in Sfakia, Crete (but also other parts of Greece).

Thoughts?

Smailis comes from Ishmael.
That points to Arab ancestry but concerning e.g. Crete, the Arabs that established the short lived Emirate of Crete were from Spain, so maybe they were 'Iberia Muslim' like. (so not 'pure' Arabs autosomally)

Johnny ola
05-22-2021, 03:52 PM
Smailis comes from Ishmael.
That points to Arab ancestry but concerning e.g. Crete, the Arabs that established the short lived Emirate of Crete were from Spain, so maybe they were 'Iberia Muslim' like. (so not 'pure' Arabs autosomally)

They were Maghrebi like.I think small traces of N.African input among some Cretans might be from them.

tkofi
05-22-2021, 05:25 PM
Target: Than_Kofi_scaled
Distance: 1.6489% / 0.01648921
27.4 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
26.8 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
25.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad
11.0 Levant_Megiddo_IA
9.4 RUS_North_Caucasus_MBA


Distance to: Than_Kofi_scaled
0.02313316 Greek_Izmir
0.02413680 Greek_Crete
0.02611912 Greek_Laconia
0.02715954 Italian_Basilicata
0.02884481 Italian_Apulia
0.02967954 Greek_Peloponnese
0.03025684 Italian_Calabria
0.03037564 Italian_Molise
0.03132151 Italian_Campania
0.03164630 Italian_Abruzzo
0.03174595 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.03199655 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.03240150 Ashkenazi_Russia
0.03359453 Greek_Kos
0.03363880 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.03463166 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.03637372 Sicilian_East
0.03678427 Rumelia_East
0.03841156 Greek_Thessaly
0.03844645 Greek_Dodecanese
0.03852564 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.03902430 Italian_Marche
0.03907885 Sicilian_West
0.03914465 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03986448 Italian_Umbria

Btw for some reason you score something North.African.Might be overfiting not sure about it.


Target: Than_Kofi_scaled
Distance: 1.2467% / 0.01246721
54.4 Greek_Laconia
17.2 Rumelia_East
12.8 Turkish_Trabzon
9.4 Georgian_Laz
3.2 Berber_Tunisia_Chen
1.4 Macedonian
1.0 Lithuanian_RA
0.6 Surui


Target: Than_Kofi_scaled
Distance: 0.8963% / 0.00896296
21.4 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan
19.2 DEU_MA_o
13.4 GRC_Helladic_EBA
10.6 KAZ_Golden_Horde_Euro
7.4 GRC_N
7.0 Baltic_LTU_Late_Antiquity_low_res
6.2 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
5.0 Levant_PPNC
4.0 TUR_IA_low_res
3.0 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LC
1.4 MAR_EN
1.4 PER_LaGalgada_4100BP

Remember you saw some N. African? Is that significant to support this family legend?

Also, my eurogenes k13 show a bit of North Africa and ~4% Red Sea (again thinking back to pirate connections - even though I recognise the difference btw N. African and Arab autosomally)

North_Atlantic 13.75 Pct
Baltic 13.93 Pct
West_Med 19.08 Pct
West_Asian 17.47 Pct
East_Med 29.15 Pct
Red_Sea 3.86 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian 1.54 Pct
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.59 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African 0.64 Pct
Sub-Saharan

Johnny ola
05-23-2021, 08:56 AM
Remember you saw some N. African? Is that significant to support this family legend?

Also, my eurogenes k13 show a bit of North Africa and ~4% Red Sea (again thinking back to pirate connections - even though I recognise the difference btw N. African and Arab autosomally)

North_Atlantic 13.75 Pct
Baltic 13.93 Pct
West_Med 19.08 Pct
West_Asian 17.47 Pct
East_Med 29.15 Pct
Red_Sea 3.86 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian 1.54 Pct
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.59 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African 0.64 Pct
Sub-Saharan

It shows 3% of N. African input in some of my models in G25. But it might be overfiting as well. Others here can share their thoughts. But you are not the only one. I have seen multiple Cretan results with very small % of N. African admix.

Nohiatis
06-17-2021, 09:18 AM
Hi! This is all very interesting! Since my family (Mihalounianoi) come from Nohia village, I am particularly interested in any information about the Smailianoi clan. My email is [email protected] Let's keep in touch!

All the best

Nohiatis
06-17-2021, 09:21 AM
Hi! This is all very interesting! Since my family (Mihalounianoi) come from Nohia village, I am particularly interested in any information about the Smailianoi clan. My email is [email protected] Let's keep in touch!

All the best

Nohiatis
06-17-2021, 09:23 AM
Hi tkofi! My family (Mihalounianoi) come from Nohia village too and I am particularly interested in any information about the Smailianoi clan. My email is [email protected] Let's keep in touch!

All the best

Sorcelow
06-17-2021, 03:45 PM
Hi tkofi! My family (Mihalounianoi) come from Nohia village too and I am particularly interested in any information about the Smailianoi clan. My email is [email protected] Let's keep in touch!

All the best

Have you done a dna test?

J Man
06-17-2021, 03:51 PM
Hi tkofi! My family (Mihalounianoi) come from Nohia village too and I am particularly interested in any information about the Smailianoi clan. My email is [email protected] Let's keep in touch!

All the best

Are you interested in DNA testing?