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Azbuzz
05-21-2021, 12:11 AM
From what I've seen they are typically 60 percent Wana and 40 percent Euro. This is what I think. Is this correct?

bitterfruit609
05-21-2021, 05:44 PM
Wikipedia says “Citing autosomal DNA studies, Nicholas Wade estimates that "Ashkenazic and Sephardic Jews have roughly 30 percent European ancestry, with most of the rest from the Middle East."” I don’t know how accurate this is though

thejkhan
05-21-2021, 06:22 PM
From what I've seen they are typically 60 percent Wana and 40 percent Euro. This is what I think. Is this correct?

Does this help?

44744

leorcooper19
05-21-2021, 06:30 PM
From what I've seen they are typically 60 percent Wana and 40 percent Euro. This is what I think. Is this correct?

Using a broad definition of "WANA" (North African + Levantine + North West Asian + Mesopotamian + Iranian etc.) and of "European" (Greek + Italian + French-German + Slavic etc.) then the 60:40 ratio is probably pretty close to the average for Eastern Ashkenazi Jews. Western Ashkenazi Jews have about 10% less overall European ancestry than EAJs. But, a major problem with this model is that there is a line drawn in the middle of the Greco-Anatolian/Aegean cline that doesn't really exist in reality.

Azbuzz
05-21-2021, 07:23 PM
Wikipedia says “Citing autosomal DNA studies, Nicholas Wade estimates that "Ashkenazic and Sephardic Jews have roughly 30 percent European ancestry, with most of the rest from the Middle East."” I don’t know how accurate this is though

Yep. That's somewhat accurate

Azbuzz
05-21-2021, 07:24 PM
Does this help?

44744

Not that much haha. Seems to vary based on the answers I've got

Azbuzz
05-21-2021, 07:43 PM
Using a broad definition of "WANA" (North African + Levantine + North West Asian + Mesopotamian + Iranian etc.) and of "European" (Greek + Italian + French-German + Slavic etc.) then the 60:40 ratio is probably pretty close to the average for Eastern Ashkenazi Jews. Western Ashkenazi Jews have about 10% less overall European ancestry than EAJs. But, a major problem with this model is that there is a line drawn in the middle of the Greco-Anatolian/Aegean cline that doesn't really exist in reality.

Ah ok. I didn't know Western and Eastern Ashkenazim varied. I know Eastern Ashkenazim would have some Eastern European, but what about Western ones? Are they only South Euro+MENA?

leorcooper19
05-22-2021, 12:36 AM
Ah ok. I didn't know Western and Eastern Ashkenazim varied. I know Eastern Ashkenazim would have some Eastern European, but what about Western ones? Are they only South Euro+MENA?

Western Ashkenazi Jews seem to have some small amount of West Euro, but in context with other Western Jews, WAJs mostly form a cline between Sephardim and EAJs. So, in that sense, what makes them differ from Sephardim is primarily differing degrees of Eastern European/Slavic ancestry, in addition to the base ~5% West Euro ancestry common to all Ashkenazim.

see PCA: https://ibb.co/1LLBkDF

Seabass
05-22-2021, 05:29 AM
How MENA do you consider Romaniote Jews and Cypriots to be? If about 70% or more than you could say with the model I shared below Ashkenazi Jews are over 50% MENA.

44756

The Aegean DNA of Cypriots and Romaniotes is probably both Greek and Anatolian going off below. As Lerocooper said above, it's essentially up for grabs what we want to consider is 'European' or not.

44757


Western Ashkenazi Jews seem to have some small amount of West Euro

I'm open to believe MAJ, ESJs and ITJs may have very minor to trace amounts too.

Unk Kadath
09-02-2021, 09:02 PM
I have seen only one persons autosomal data first-hand IRL, which is difficult to draw any wide conclusions from, however I think that the primary obstacle to answering this interesting question accurately is that Italian / Rhine Valley "Ashkenazics" were not (historically) the same population autsomally as Eastern / Steppe "Ashkenazics".

Creating an artificial 'lump-Ashkenazic' category throws bad data, from what I have seen. The Caucasus / Steppe population needs to be moved into a separate category, or you will over-assign Levantine origin - Also, studies that attempt to compare existing modern populations with an artificial autosomal composite, throw bad data, whereas comparing modern populations to ancient samples yields accurate data.


"a principle component analysis (PCA), the ancient Levantines clustered predominantly with modern-day Palestinians and Bedouins and marginally overlapped with Arabian Jews, whereas AJs clustered away from Levantine individuals and adjacent to Neolithic Anatolians and Late Neolithic and Bronze Age Europeans."

This conclusion is anecdotally reinforced by what is probably good measurement offered by a Rabbinical lineage study that was created and assisted within the Rabbincal community, that tested 13 major Rabbinical lines -

Five (5) of these are either certainly not of Levantine population origin, or highly unlikely to be, given that they are most common ancestries in Steppe / Caucasus peoples, Eight (8) of these are certainly Hg that can commonly be found among Levantine peoples, but most of which can also be found among Iranic, Turkic, Kurdish peoples.

One of these lineages is interesting because it is V88 originating from (then) Muslim-controlled Spain, that later moves to a location in what is today the Ukraine. This makes it very likely that the father of this line is most likely Moorish or a Spaniard of Moorish paternal descent, that introgressed this major Rabbinical line.

The best assessment would be a medieval DNA assessment between Steppe samples and Italic Spaniard samples that predate the Reconquista, which I am pretty certain are going to have either no, or only minor, relatedness.

StillWater
09-07-2021, 12:38 AM
I have seen only one persons autosomal data first-hand IRL, which is difficult to draw any wide conclusions from, however I think that the primary obstacle to answering this interesting question accurately is that Italian / Rhine Valley "Ashkenazics" were not (historically) the same population autsomally as Eastern / Steppe "Ashkenazics".

Creating an artificial 'lump-Ashkenazic' category throws bad data, from what I have seen. The Caucasus / Steppe population needs to be moved into a separate category, or you will over-assign Levantine origin - Also, studies that attempt to compare existing modern populations with an artificial autosomal composite, throw bad data, whereas comparing modern populations to ancient samples yields accurate data.



This conclusion is anecdotally reinforced by what is probably good measurement offered by a Rabbinical lineage study that was created and assisted within the Rabbincal community, that tested 13 major Rabbinical lines -

Five (5) of these are either certainly not of Levantine population origin, or highly unlikely to be, given that they are most common ancestries in Steppe / Caucasus peoples, Eight (8) of these are certainly Hg that can commonly be found among Levantine peoples, but most of which can also be found among Iranic, Turkic, Kurdish peoples.

One of these lineages is interesting because it is V88 originating from (then) Muslim-controlled Spain, that later moves to a location in what is today the Ukraine. This makes it very likely that the father of this line is most likely Moorish or a Spaniard of Moorish paternal descent, that introgressed this major Rabbinical line.

The best assessment would be a medieval DNA assessment between Steppe samples and Italic Spaniard samples that predate the Reconquista, which I am pretty certain are going to have either no, or only minor, relatedness.

Please share which 5 you don't think are Levantine. Also, please expand on the eastern steppe Ashkenazics. And if you don't mind, please share why you think the clade in V88 was picked up in Muslim Spain.

TheAmerican
09-09-2021, 06:55 PM
Please share which 5 you don't think are Levantine. Also, please expand on the eastern steppe Ashkenazics. And if you don't mind, please share why you think the clade in V88 was picked up in Muslim Spain.

Also, I don't know why he thinks it would have just moved to Ukraine when it is found in Ashkenazim from all over Central/Eastern Europe including Germany, the Netherlands, Czechia, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, Lithuania, and Belarus in addition to Ukraine. The closest non-Jewish clades are all from Arabia, the Southern Levant, and Sudan so where would the speculation of a Moorish origin come from?

Unk Kadath
09-09-2021, 10:04 PM
Also, I don't know why he thinks it would have just moved to Ukraine when it is found in Ashkenazim from all over Central/Eastern Europe including Germany, the Netherlands, Czechia, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, Lithuania, and Belarus in addition to Ukraine. The closest non-Jewish clades are all from Arabia, the Southern Levant, and Sudan so where would the speculation of a Moorish origin come from?

First of all.. I am not trying to insult or argue with anyone. I simply noted my conclusions of a study that interested me and which I had, fairly long ago, chanced upon. The point of this thread was an invitation to speculate on the topic, which I did based upon not mere whimsy, but a Rabbinical authorized study. My point was merely to note that even some portion of Sephardic or Italian/Rhine River Valley Ashkenazics are not going to necessarily be fully Levantine. If you disagree strongly, that is your right and I respect it.

I am not playing into modern political or ethnic concerns, just a factor of probability. If significant instances of ancient Levantine V88 were showing up from the Temple era Levant, I would fully assert that the ancestry likely originates from that time and place, but there is no evidence that I am aware of to establish this conclusion.

I am removing the name of this specific Rabbinical lineage from my reply because although they did apparently volunteer to make this data public, I do not want to dox them with an unwelcome opinion.

Its extremely likely - if not guaranteed - that some amount of paternal SNP from Moorish Berber V88 tribal clans will in fact be found in modern Arabia and Sudan since we know for a fact that they interact significantly, both economically and militarily, with Berber tribesmen over a vast period of time during the Islamic expansion. You appear to me to attribute this as indication of actually originating from Temple-era Levantine populations, when I find no such probability.

Two of the potential conclusions that could be drawn are that this line was incidentally V88, of Temple-era Levantine origin, and coincidentally ends up in Iberia, which is conquered and occupied by Moorish Berber tribes, who often bear V88, in the period that the Moors have total control over the region...

Or you could conclude that an introgression from these occupying Moorish /Berber males or possibly a Spaniard of this paternal SNP, entered into the paternal lineage through an NPE, which is understandably not going to be a very welcome realization to anyone - The fact that this SNP is shared across other potentially Iberian origin families may indicate that these other families follow this line out of Spain, as they headed east, or to Holland, after the mass Expulsion.


"It is also well-known that many major rabbinical families have a long-standing tradition that they descend from pre-Inquisition Spain and Portugal. The prominent Ashkenazi rabbinical Epstein family, for instance, claims descent from Spain. In this regard, the results of our previous Y-DNA study of the Katzenellenbogen rabbinical dynasty provided compelling genetic evidence that it, too, was most likely Sephardic in origin."


"In addition to the phylogenetic evidence supporting Iberian ancestry based upon the R1b-V88 haplogroup marker, the STR results for the pedigreed T___ descendants provide additional supporting evidence of Iberian ancestry.

"Recorded in the spellings of Zamora, Zamorrann, and Zamorrano, this famous Spanish surname derives from the ancient city of Zamora in Northwest Spain, a city founded by the invading Moors in the 12th century."

The Iberian ethnic origin of the T____ dynasty, while intriguing, is not entirely unexpected, or without historical precedent. Sephardic Jewry, having been expelled from Spain, found different homes throughout Europe."

I think that as supporting evidence, it would be conclusive to assess whether these other descendants mentioned below are in fact true patrilineal descendants of other children from this Moorish-Spain migrant lineage, which would point to what I suspect - an NPE. Since that NPE would only affect that one descendant, the other siblings would be expected to NOT match, which we see some potential for -


"There are tens of thousands of T____ descendants widely dispersed throughout the world. Many of them are patrilineal descendants of the T____ dynasty, but many may have independently acquired the T____ surname and bear no genetic relationship to descendants of the T____ rabbinical family."

leorcooper19
09-09-2021, 11:35 PM
First of all.. I am not trying to insult or argue with anyone. I simply noted my conclusions of a study that interested me and which I had, fairly long ago, chanced upon. The point of this thread was an invitation to speculate on the topic, which I did based upon not mere whimsy, but a Rabbinical authorized study. My point was merely to note that even some portion of Sephardic or Italian/Rhine River Valley Ashkenazics are not going to necessarily be fully Levantine. If you disagree strongly, that is your right and I respect it.

No problem in that! Western Jews like Sephardim and Ashkenazim are almost certainly <50% Levantine.


I am not playing into modern political or ethnic concerns, just a factor of probability. If significant instances of ancient Levantine V88 were showing up from the Temple era Levant, I would fully assert that the ancestry likely originates from that time and place, but there is no evidence that I am aware of to establish this conclusion.

I am removing the name of this specific Rabbinical lineage from my reply because although they did apparently volunteer to make this data public, I do not want to dox them with an unwelcome opinion.

Its extremely likely - if not guaranteed - that some amount of paternal SNP from Moorish Berber V88 tribal clans will in fact be found in modern Arabia and Sudan since we know for a fact that they interact significantly, both economically and militarily, with Berber tribesmen over a vast period of time during the Islamic expansion. You appear to me to attribute this as indication of actually originating from Temple-era Levantine populations, when I find no such probability.

Two of the potential conclusions that could be drawn are that this line was incidentally V88, of Temple-era Levantine origin, and coincidentally ends up in Iberia, which is conquered and occupied by Moorish Berber tribes, who often bear V88, in the period that the Moors have total control over the region...

Or you could conclude that an introgression from these occupying Moorish /Berber males or possibly a Spaniard of this paternal SNP, entered into the paternal lineage through an NPE, which is understandably not going to be a very welcome realization to anyone - The fact that this SNP is shared across other potentially Iberian origin families may indicate that these other families follow this line out of Spain, as they headed east, or to Holland, after the mass Expulsion.

I think that as supporting evidence, it would be conclusive to assess whether these other descendants mentioned below are in fact true patrilineal descendants of other children from this Moorish-Spain migrant lineage, which would point to what I suspect - an NPE. Since that NPE would only affect that one descendant, the other siblings would be expected to NOT match, which we see some potential for -

I believe you're referencing here the fact that the Ashkenazi-Sephardi clade of R-FGC21016 has a Saudi cousin line at R-FGC20980*, with a TMRCA of c. 2500 ybp. While Sephardim do have some degree (5-10%) of classical North African ancestry, this ancestry mainly seems limited to maternal descent. Furthermore, I actually can't find a good study that suggests that Moroccans (the best modern proxy for the Moors of medieval Iberia) have any significant amount of R1b-V88. Could you share your source on this? Barring any convincing find- which I am skeptical actually exists- your argument seems pretty empty. The question regarding the ethno-cultural identity of the MRCA of R-FGC20980 remains a good one; myself and other friends here have tossed around a southern-fringe/Edomite et al. hypothesis, with the line becoming Jewish in the southern Levant during the Hasmonean period. What do you make of that?

StillWater
09-09-2021, 11:42 PM
First of all.. I am not trying to insult or argue with anyone. I simply noted my conclusions of a study that interested me and which I had, fairly long ago, chanced upon. The point of this thread was an invitation to speculate on the topic, which I did based upon not mere whimsy, but a Rabbinical authorized study. My point was merely to note that even some portion of Sephardic or Italian/Rhine River Valley Ashkenazics are not going to necessarily be fully Levantine. If you disagree strongly, that is your right and I respect it.

I am not playing into modern political or ethnic concerns, just a factor of probability. If significant instances of ancient Levantine V88 were showing up from the Temple era Levant, I would fully assert that the ancestry likely originates from that time and place, but there is no evidence that I am aware of to establish this conclusion.

I am removing the name of this specific Rabbinical lineage from my reply because although they did apparently volunteer to make this data public, I do not want to dox them with an unwelcome opinion.

Its extremely likely - if not guaranteed - that some amount of paternal SNP from Moorish Berber V88 tribal clans will in fact be found in modern Arabia and Sudan since we know for a fact that they interact significantly, both economically and militarily, with Berber tribesmen over a vast period of time during the Islamic expansion. You appear to me to attribute this as indication of actually originating from Temple-era Levantine populations, when I find no such probability.

Two of the potential conclusions that could be drawn are that this line was incidentally V88, of Temple-era Levantine origin, and coincidentally ends up in Iberia, which is conquered and occupied by Moorish Berber tribes, who often bear V88, in the period that the Moors have total control over the region...

Or you could conclude that an introgression from these occupying Moorish /Berber males or possibly a Spaniard of this paternal SNP, entered into the paternal lineage through an NPE, which is understandably not going to be a very welcome realization to anyone - The fact that this SNP is shared across other potentially Iberian origin families may indicate that these other families follow this line out of Spain, as they headed east, or to Holland, after the mass Expulsion.





I think that as supporting evidence, it would be conclusive to assess whether these other descendants mentioned below are in fact true patrilineal descendants of other children from this Moorish-Spain migrant lineage, which would point to what I suspect - an NPE. Since that NPE would only affect that one descendant, the other siblings would be expected to NOT match, which we see some potential for -

The article doesn't suggest any of what you're saying, and this is clear from the line:


This last split fits the idea that a Jewish group left the Middle East and lived in Iberia as part of the Sephardic Jewish community there.

They misuse "ethnic Iberian", as most American Jews do with such terms. If you spoke to enough American Jews, you'd come back and report that most are Slavs. Don't believe me even after they explicitly tell you what they think the origin of the line is? Ok, email them and ask if they meant Iberian in the purest sense. The very same line tells you another important bit - that the phylogeny suggests a Jewish origin in the Middle East. The "Iberians" they match (Zamorra) are going to be ex-Sephardim or modern Jews. A ton of Jewish lineages have Iberians and Latinos in them, perhaps even a majority. Again, reasoning like this would lead you to think that Ashkenazim are a mix of Slavs and Spaniards. YFull and FTDNA already have Latinos in the lineage and show that they form a clade with a Greek Sephardi Jew - precisely what we would expect for a Western Jewish clade. I'm not aware of any Iberian sibling branch or splitter to R-FGC21016, nor am I aware of such a Berber.

You then support your NPE argument by the fact that other carriers of the same surname aren't in the same Y-lineage. Nevermind that this is the case for almost all surnames found among Ashkenazim, please explain how an NPE in Moorish Spain contributes to a multitude of lineages among Ashkenazim of the same, recently adopted Slavic surname.

By the way, I'm curious why this "Moorish Berber" lineage ended up being so common in Sudan, but seems comparatively sparse among Berbers. I think that the V88 in the Sudanese isn't Berber and that its presence in Jews relates to the historical interaction between Northeast Africa and the Levant - i.e The Exodus, to which ever degree it is true.

leorcooper19
09-09-2021, 11:49 PM
I also want to add that Jeffrey Mark Paull's studies- while insightful and interesting- should not be used as credible sources for any "origin" talk. He's primarily interested in medieval and early modern Ashkenazi Rabbinical families, and definitely doesn't fully understand how deep-clade Y concepts translate into historical events (i.e., "Ashkenazi Jews match Latinos, therefore they must be descended from Sephardim," in the case of the Katzenelenbogen family). For R-FGC21016 though, the Ashkenazim do seem to be descended from a Sephardic Jew. Given the basal Bulgarian Jew at R-FGC21047, I've always thought it was via the Balkans, but there are tons of German Jews in this lineage as well, so it may not be entirely straight forward.

Unk Kadath
09-10-2021, 12:58 AM
"The article doesn't suggest any of what you're saying"

The article / study is actually saying multiple things, in my view -


"Penninx and Akaha (2016) analyzed the STR values among five different groups belonging to different branches of the R1b-V88 haplogroup in their FTDNA project. From this analysis, they reported that: “The Spanish group and the Ashkenazi group share a relatively recent common ancestor, with a TMRCA distance of 450–2100 ybp”

This is what the call is derived from - which is a pretty massive spread, in my view, to function as meaningfully diagnostic.


"Small percentages (1 to 4%) of R1b-V88 were also found in the Levant, among the Lebanese, the Druze, and the Jews, and in almost every country in Africa north of the equator."

The article also notes, above, that this ancestry would be extremely uncommon in even modern Levantine populations, and these modern states have historically been subjected to Islamic troops of Berber and North African origin who engaged in recorded outrages against the civilian population as far north as Damascus.



“The resulting phylogenetic relationships for R1b-V88 support an Iberian origin, a Mediterranean expansion, and a Europe to Africa back migration.”

The authors citation also does cite a claim of Iberian basal origin, Maglio (2014) although it is preceded by another conclusion, that asserts a Middle East origin, and both are seemingly coupled to undergird the theory.

Lastly,


"Current research suggests that the Iberian ancestor of the T____ dynasty lived approximately 450–2100 years ago, and that he most likely migrated to Iberia from Africa or the Middle East. However, current phylogenetic-based TMRCA calculations are imprecise, and give only a relative indication of chronological magnitude."

The author acknowledges the potential African origin, although it is quite possible that he intended to infer this as a waypoint, however if so, he does not word the conclusion in that manner. The author also correctly, in my view, denotes the unreliability of available TMRCA calculations, which was critical to the original call.


"Here, we investigated the genetic history of the spread of Northern African ancestry common among Berbers, the Y DNA haplogroup R1b-V88, and Chadic languages throughout the Sahel, with a focus on Chad."
http://europepmc.org/article/MED/30259956#free-full-text


"N Africa Berbers from Siwa Egypt AA/Berber 28.0%"
https://www.liquisearch.com/haplogroup_r1b_y-dna/r1b_r-m343/r1b1c_r-v88

I agree with you, that on known tested populations you get some of the biggest hits for V88 among what today are Sub-Saharan Africans, however I also think we are testing historically nomadic people who have been disrupted or shifted abodes over millennia as the Sahara becomes more inhospitable or oasis dry out, and even amongst North African populations in modern times, we see the L1 and L2, indicative of these movements.

Like I said, I have no preferred outcome, and I dont want you to think that I am attempting impose my opinion on you or anyone else. My call is simply what I see as statistically most probable. If you disagree, I fully respect your right to feel otherwise.

StillWater
09-10-2021, 01:36 AM
The article / study is actually saying multiple things, in my view -



This is what the call is derived from - which is a pretty massive spread, in my view, to function as meaningfully diagnostic.



The article also notes, above, that this ancestry would be extremely uncommon in even modern Levantine populations, and these modern states have historically been subjected to Islamic troops of Berber and North African origin who engaged in recorded outrages against the civilian population as far north as Damascus.




The authors citation also does cite a claim of Iberian basal origin, Maglio (2014) although it is preceded by another conclusion, that asserts a Middle East origin, and both are seemingly coupled to undergird the theory.

Lastly,



The author acknowledges the potential African origin, although it is quite possible that he intended to infer this as a waypoint, however if so, he does not word the conclusion in that manner. The author also correctly, in my view, denotes the unreliability of available TMRCA calculations, which was critical to the original call.


http://europepmc.org/article/MED/30259956#free-full-text


https://www.liquisearch.com/haplogroup_r1b_y-dna/r1b_r-m343/r1b1c_r-v88

I agree with you, that on known tested populations you get some of the biggest hits for V88 among what today are Sub-Saharan Africans, however I also think we are testing historically nomadic people who have been disrupted or shifted abodes over millennia as the Sahara becomes more inhospitable or oasis dry out, and even amongst North African populations in modern times, we see the L1 and L2, indicative of these movements.

Like I said, I have no preferred outcome, and I dont want you to think that I am attempting impose my opinion on you or anyone else. My call is simply what I see as statistically most probable. If you disagree, I fully respect your right to feel otherwise.

You're pulling quotes out of context. This is what you quoted:


Penninx and Akaha (2016) analyzed the STR values among five different groups belonging to different branches of the R1b-V88 haplogroup in their FTDNA project. From this analysis, they reported that: “The Spanish group and the Ashkenazi group share a relatively recent common ancestor, with a TMRCA distance of 450–2100 ybp” (see the footnotes in the full article for complete source citations).

Meanwhile, this very same "Spanish group" is clarified here:


These intriguing research findings suggest that the T[] dynasty most likely descends from a common Sephardic Iberian ancestor. Current research suggests that this Iberian ancestor lived approximately 450–2100 years ago, and that he most likely migrated to Iberia from Africa or the Middle East. During the early Middle Ages, this Iberian ancestor migrated from Iberia to the Ashkenazi countries, in which the T[] Chassidic dynasty arose.

The ultimate origin of R-V88 isn't relevant to this. The author clearly makes a sloppy error. He sees Iberia mentioned in both cases and so he ties it in. He wasn't suggesting that the clade originated in Iberia, but that it came there. The same goes for yourself - you say it came from a Moor. Yet, you both somehow think that quote supports you. Just as you made this error, so did the author. As Leorcooper19 said, the author shouldn't be relied upon for this topic.

Regarding the ultimate origin, the only clear statement in the paper is that the Jewish branch seems to have originated in the middle east. When the author speaks of it arriving from North Africa, he's likely not talking about the ultimate origin, but the proximal one, as there was an early Jewish diaspora in North Africa and his use of "immigrating". You're welcome to check with him on this.

The starting difference between us isn't one of opinion, but that I'm keeping things in context and you're not.

Regarding the Berbers, notice they're Northeast African, with a peak of V88 in Egypt. This supports my theory, not yours. Unless you're suggesting there is a ton of it among Berbers closer to Iberia and it's waiting to be found.

Woozler
09-10-2021, 07:04 AM
Regarding the donor source for the Steppe? Well it looks like Roman Era Levantines start showing the presence of a very minor amount of Steppe unlike Iron Age samples, possibly derived more from Persian than Greek conquests. I don't know, but I'm doubting Hellenization and proselytism activities in the Levant explain even a significant amount of the Steppe in Western Jews. Everyone points to just Italy, but I think we are underestimating the mobility between Jews of North Africa with Italy, Greece and Asia Minor. For what it's worth, Tunisian and Libyan Jews have steppe levels about as high as Cypriots and some Karaite Egyptians have higher levels of Steppe than most Levantine Muslims. Much of the Steppe will be owed to an East-Mediterranean origin of some kind.

But that's the problem, East Med people have at best only about as much steppe as AJ's. Even Italian Jews appear have 21% Yamnaya, almost as much as modern S Italians, more than Imperial Roman samples and probably about as much as the Greeks had prior to Slavic migrations, while Samaritans and Iraqi Jews have steppe only in the low single digits, if at all.

I could imagine AJ's being descended from 1/3 Middle Easterners, 1/3 Italians/Greeks, and 1/3 some steppe-heavy Central or Eastern Europeans, but that wouldn't explain so much steppe in Italian Jews and that is not what admixture calculators show. They show AJ's as largely Mediterranean, with definitely less than 1/3 North European ancestry. And with the Samaritan percentages you gave I now have difficulty seeing how the Eastern European Ashkenazim could be more (or less) than roughly 25% Middle Eastern.

The steppe in Lybian and Tunisian Jews might perhaps be explained by the fact that they are heavily Sephardic?


Notice between my results and parents, they are not exactly fully linear to my parents?

Wouldn't the admixture ratios average out for a larger population over a course of generations?

As for uniparentals, wouldn't genetic drift/bottleneck-related factors explain quite a lot of it? We know, for example, that a far greater percentage of modern AJ's descend from medieval rabbinical lines than there were rabbis in the medieval Jewish population simply because for generations, rabbis tended to have more children surviving to adulthood than the rest of the Jewish population (on average)? If the late Antiquity/medieval rabbinical lines were more likely to be of Middle Eastern origin than the rest of the European Jewish population at the time, than this might help explain at least some of the drift.

TheAmerican
09-11-2021, 04:08 PM
But that's the problem, East Med people have at best only about as much steppe as AJ's. Even Italian Jews appear have 21% Yamnaya, almost as much as modern S Italians, more than Imperial Roman samples and probably about as much as the Greeks had prior to Slavic migrations, while Samaritans and Iraqi Jews have steppe only in the low single digits, if at all.

I could imagine AJ's being descended from 1/3 Middle Easterners, 1/3 Italians/Greeks, and 1/3 some steppe-heavy Central or Eastern Europeans, but that wouldn't explain so much steppe in Italian Jews and that is not what admixture calculators show. They show AJ's as largely Mediterranean, with definitely less than 1/3 North European ancestry. And with the Samaritan percentages you gave I now have difficulty seeing how the Eastern European Ashkenazim could be more (or less) than roughly 25% Middle Eastern.

The steppe in Lybian and Tunisian Jews might perhaps be explained by the fact that they are heavily Sephardic?



Wouldn't the admixture ratios average out for a larger population over a course of generations?

As for uniparentals, wouldn't genetic drift/bottleneck-related factors explain quite a lot of it? We know, for example, that a far greater percentage of modern AJ's descend from medieval rabbinical lines than there were rabbis in the medieval Jewish population simply because for generations, rabbis tended to have more children surviving to adulthood than the rest of the Jewish population (on average)? If the late Antiquity/medieval rabbinical lines were more likely to be of Middle Eastern origin than the rest of the European Jewish population at the time, than this might help explain at least some of the drift.

I think Ashkenazim of Eastern-European origin are something like

43% Middle-Eastern (mainly Levantine/Israelite) Some ancestry from around Mesopotamia is probable
43% Greco-Italian (mainly something similar to modern Central Italians from Lazio and Tuscany) I would expect some ancestry from across Italy, Southern France, and Greece
5% Central/Western European (Mainly Northern French and German)
9% Eastern European/Slavic

I think Ashkenazim of Central-European origin are something like

46% Middle-Eastern (mainly Levantine/Israelite) Some ancestry from around Mesopotamia and area but maybe less than the Eastern Ashkenazi?
46% Greco-Italian (mainly something similar to modern Central Italians from Lazio and Tuscany) I would expect some ancestry from across Italy, Southern France, and Greece
6% Central/Western European (Mainly Northern French and German)

The Jews of the Eastern Maghreb (Tunisia and Libya) probably actually descend a little more largely from Jews who lived in the region prior to the exile of Jews from Iberia. It is generally the opposite in the Western Maghreb (Morrocco and Algeria) who descend more largely from Sephardic Jews exiled from Spain but they still have some ancestry from Jews who lived in the region prior to the exile of Jews from Iberia.

Back to the Ashkenazim finding the right sources is what is difficult you could choose two different European sources and one could make them look very European or very Middle-Eastern. For example

Looking very European or as you said just 25% or a 1/3 Middle Eastern

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland
Distance: 1.4335% / 0.01433545
76.4 Sicilian_West
23.6 Israeli_Druze

Target: Ashkenazi_Germany
Distance: 1.2338% / 0.01233846
66.4 Sicilian_West
33.6 Israeli_Druze

Looking very Middle-Eastern

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland
Distance: 3.0795% / 0.03079490
78.0 Israeli_Druze
22.0 Finnish_East

Target: Ashkenazi_Germany
Distance: 3.4358% / 0.03435829
83.2 Israeli_Druze
16.8 Finnish_East

46538

If you look at the image above you can see how Italian Jews are between Lebanese Christians and Central Italians. I believe this is due to a near-even mix between two ancient populations one closely related to Lebanese Christians (Presumably Israelite men) and the other closely related to modern Central Italians (Presumably Roman/Central Italian women). Then you can the German-Ashkenazism being pulled a little to the left (Towards the Gentile-German cluster) from the center of the Italian-Jewish cluster and then the Lithuanian-Ashkenazism being a little more to the left and downwards towards the (Gentile-Polish cluster) from the center of the German-Ashkenazi cluster. I believe this is due to sporadic mixing between Jews of mainly Italian-Jewish origin with native peoples of Northern European origins

Honestly, the Rhineland hypothesis makes perfect sense when you look at the DNA of Ashkenazim but also what we know of their history in general.

Claudio
09-11-2021, 05:40 PM
But that's the problem, East Med people have at best only about as much steppe as AJ's. Even Italian Jews appear have 21% Yamnaya, almost as much as modern S Italians, more than Imperial Roman samples and probably about as much as the Greeks had prior to Slavic migrations, while Samaritans and Iraqi Jews have steppe only in the low single digits, if at all.

I could imagine AJ's being descended from 1/3 Middle Easterners, 1/3 Italians/Greeks, and 1/3 some steppe-heavy Central or Eastern Europeans, but that wouldn't explain so much steppe in Italian Jews and that is not what admixture calculators show. They show AJ's as largely Mediterranean, with definitely less than 1/3 North European ancestry. And with the Samaritan percentages you gave I now have difficulty seeing how the Eastern European Ashkenazim could be more (or less) than roughly 25% Middle Eastern.

The steppe in Lybian and Tunisian Jews might perhaps be explained by the fact that they are heavily Sephardic?



Wouldn't the admixture ratios average out for a larger population over a course of generations?

As for uniparentals, wouldn't genetic drift/bottleneck-related factors explain quite a lot of it? We know, for example, that a far greater percentage of modern AJ's descend from medieval rabbinical lines than there were rabbis in the medieval Jewish population simply because for generations, rabbis tended to have more children surviving to adulthood than the rest of the Jewish population (on average)? If the late Antiquity/medieval rabbinical lines were more likely to be of Middle Eastern origin than the rest of the European Jewish population at the time, than this might help explain at least some of the drift.

Given your calculations regarding Steppe admixture.. how middle Eastern do you calculate each of the different modern Western Jewish groups to be?

Claudio
09-11-2021, 05:43 PM
I think Ashkenazim of Eastern-European origin are something like

43% Middle-Eastern (mainly Levantine/Israelite) Some ancestry from around Mesopotamia is probable
43% Greco-Italian (mainly something similar to modern Central Italians from Lazio and Tuscany) I would expect some ancestry from across Italy, Southern France, and Greece
5% Central/Western European (Mainly Northern French and German)
9% Eastern European/Slavic

I think Ashkenazim of Central-European origin are something like

46% Middle-Eastern (mainly Levantine/Israelite) Some ancestry from around Mesopotamia and area but maybe less than the Eastern Ashkenazi?
46% Greco-Italian (mainly something similar to modern Central Italians from Lazio and Tuscany) I would expect some ancestry from across Italy, Southern France, and Greece
6% Central/Western European (Mainly Northern French and German)

The Jews of the Eastern Maghreb (Tunisia and Libya) probably actually descend a little more largely from Jews who lived in the region prior to the exile of Jews from Iberia. It is generally the opposite in the Western Maghreb (Morrocco and Algeria) who descend more largely from Sephardic Jews exiled from Spain but they still have some ancestry from Jews who lived in the region prior to the exile of Jews from Iberia.

Back to the Ashkenazim finding the right sources is what is difficult you could choose two different European sources and one could make them look very European or very Middle-Eastern. For example

Looking very European or as you said just 25% or a 1/3 Middle Eastern

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland
Distance: 1.4335% / 0.01433545
76.4 Sicilian_West
23.6 Israeli_Druze

Target: Ashkenazi_Germany
Distance: 1.2338% / 0.01233846
66.4 Sicilian_West
33.6 Israeli_Druze

Looking very Middle-Eastern

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland
Distance: 3.0795% / 0.03079490
78.0 Israeli_Druze
22.0 Finnish_East

Target: Ashkenazi_Germany
Distance: 3.4358% / 0.03435829
83.2 Israeli_Druze
16.8 Finnish_East

46538

If you look at the image above you can see how Italian Jews are between Lebanese Christians and Central Italians. I believe this is due to a near-even mix between two ancient populations one closely related to Lebanese Christians (Presumably Israelite men) and the other closely related to modern Central Italians (Presumably Roman/Central Italian women). Then you can the German-Ashkenazism being pulled a little to the left (Towards the Gentile-German cluster) from the center of the Italian-Jewish cluster and then the Lithuanian-Ashkenazism being a little more to the left and downwards towards the (Gentile-Polish cluster) from the center of the German-Ashkenazi cluster. I believe this is due to sporadic mixing between Jews of mainly Italian-Jewish origin with native peoples of Northern European origins

Honestly, the Rhineland hypothesis makes perfect sense when you look at the DNA of Ashkenazim but also what we know of their history in general.

Except one problem with your preferred scenario.
Roman era Central Italians did not plot like today’s modern Lazio Central Italians.
They plotted on Average like modern Southern Italians.

TheAmerican
09-11-2021, 09:26 PM
I also want to add that Jeffrey Mark Paull's studies- while insightful and interesting- should not be used as credible sources for any "origin" talk. He's primarily interested in medieval and early modern Ashkenazi Rabbinical families, and definitely doesn't fully understand how deep-clade Y concepts translate into historical events (i.e., "Ashkenazi Jews match Latinos, therefore they must be descended from Sephardim," in the case of the Katzenelenbogen family). For R-FGC21016 though, the Ashkenazim do seem to be descended from a Sephardic Jew. Given the basal Bulgarian Jew at R-FGC21047, I've always thought it was via the Balkans, but there are tons of German Jews in this lineage as well, so it may not be entirely straight forward.

Bulgarian Sephardim seem to trace a substantial portion of their ancestry to Ashkenazim that arrived in Bulgaria from Bavaria and Hungary during the 13th-15th centuries in addition they probably have some degree of Romaniote blood. I know that K1a1b1a has been found in multiple Bulgarian Sephardim

I feel like when researchers find Ashkenazi Jews with a lineage shared with Sephardim + a more recent TMRCA they are always quick to assume that it must mean Sephadrim entered the Ashkenazi gene pool and it never seems to come to their mind that Ashkenazism could have entered the Sephardi gene pool, it is honestly quite annoying because we know of historical instances of Ashkenazim mixing themselves into Sephardic communities in the Netherlands, Hamburg, Palestine/Israel, Aleppo, Salonica, Constantinople, England, Bulgaria, Serbia, Northern Italy, and Spain. Just as we see Sephardim mixing into the Ashkenazi in places like Hungary, Galicia, and Northern Germany.

Woozler
09-11-2021, 10:31 PM
I think Ashkenazim of Eastern-European origin are something like

43% Middle-Eastern (mainly Levantine/Israelite) Some ancestry from around Mesopotamia is probable

But that's not what your own calculations show.


Looking very European or as you said just 25% or a 1/3 Middle Eastern

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland
Distance: 1.4335% / 0.01433545
76.4 Sicilian_West
23.6 Israeli_Druze

Target: Ashkenazi_Germany
Distance: 1.2338% / 0.01233846
66.4 Sicilian_West
33.6 Israeli_Druze

Here. Polish/Ukrainian/Belarussian AJ's may be close to 25% Levantine, German AJ's closer to 1/3 Levantine even when using the Druze as a reference, although the Druze are not really of (fully) Levantine origins and are noticeably "Greek-shifted" than the Samaritans and the Lebanese.


Back to the Ashkenazim finding the right sources is what is difficult you could choose two different European sources and one could make them look very European or very Middle-Eastern. For example

Looking very Middle-Eastern

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland
Distance: 3.0795% / 0.03079490
78.0 Israeli_Druze
22.0 Finnish_East

Target: Ashkenazi_Germany
Distance: 3.4358% / 0.03435829
83.2 Israeli_Druze
16.8 Finnish_East

Terrible fits, as people say, plus we know that AJ's are largely Mediterranean based on various admixture calculators.


If you look at the image above you can see how Italian Jews are between Lebanese Christians and Central Italians.

This looks very different from a similar chart in the 2010 Zoossmann-Diskin paper, which showed AJs as clustering tightly with Italians and being quite distant from the Levantine groups. Zoossmann-Diskin proposed that AJ's are largely just converted Italians, if I recall correctly. We now know that the AJ history is considerably more complicated than any simple single-source origin story, but that paper is what got me interested in the topic we're now discussing (I was 10 years late, but hey, better late than never).


I believe this is due to a near-even mix between two ancient populations one closely related to Lebanese Christians (Presumably Israelite men) and the other closely related to modern Central Italians (Presumably Roman/Central Italian women).

Again, then: how would you explain so much steppe even in Italian Jews (21%), to say nothing of E European AJ's, and so little Levant_PPNB?


Honestly, the Rhineland hypothesis makes perfect sense when you look at the DNA of Ashkenazim but also what we know of their history in general.

As opposed to the Khazarian hypothesis? Well, obviously. AJ's are largely Mediterranean.

Seabass
09-11-2021, 11:52 PM
Again, then: how would you explain so much steppe even in Italian Jews (21%), to say nothing of E European AJ's, and so little Levant_PPNB?



Where are you even getting this? It's actually closer to 15 than 20.Italian Jews have less steppe than any Italian, Sicilian and Maltese popn we seen.

TheAmerican
09-12-2021, 12:06 AM
But that's not what your own calculations show.



Here. Polish/Ukrainian/Belarussian AJ's may be close to 25% Levantine, German AJ's closer to 1/3 Levantine even when using the Druze as a reference, although the Druze are not really of (fully) Levantine origins and are noticeably "Greek-shifted" than the Samaritans and the Lebanese.



Terrible fits, as people say, plus we know that AJ's are largely Mediterranean based on various admixture calculators.



This looks very different from a similar chart in the 2010 Zoossmann-Diskin paper, which showed AJs as clustering tightly with Italians and being quite distant from the Levantine groups. Zoossmann-Diskin proposed that AJ's are largely just converted Italians, if I recall correctly. We now know that the AJ history is considerably more complicated than any simple single-source origin story, but that paper is what got me interested in the topic we're now discussing (I was 10 years late, but hey, better late than never).



Again, then: how would you explain so much steppe even in Italian Jews (21%), to say nothing of E European AJ's, and so little Levant_PPNB?



As opposed to the Khazarian hypothesis? Well, obviously. AJ's are largely Mediterranean.

I used terrible fits on both occasions and on purpose I thought that was obvious. I used to believe that AJ's were around 70%-85% descended from local converted Italians or that they descended largely from a Southern-Italian-like population as Zoossmann-Diskin proposed but now that seems much less probable. It seems unlikely that the European ancestry in Ashkenazi Jews is overall related to groups like Southern Italians, Sicilians, and Aegean Greeks few MTDNA lineages look like they can be traced back to those regions more often the MTDNA of Ashkenazim look to originate in Central Italy, Northern Italy, and Gaul plus the IBD sharing between Ashkenazim and Tuscans is higher than the IBD sharing is between Ashkenazi and Southern Italians. The Italian Jews have an amount of Steppe that is intermediate between modern Central Italians and Lebanese Christians which is near though still slightly less than Southern Italians, Sicilians, and Aegean Greeks. Since we don't know how genetically diverse the Israelites were we can't say for sure if Samaritans are a good proxy plus ancient samples from Central Italy/Rome are a mess and are extremely diverse making it hard to understand the genetic profile of Italians during antiquity. Also, the Israeli Druze to not seem to be Greek shifted in fact the Lebanese Christians seem even more Greek shifted

TheAmerican
09-12-2021, 12:36 AM
46541

Ancient Roman samples from Rome itself were plotted all over. So I have an issue with the "average" While it is true that from samples we have collected so far are when you average them all together Southern-Italian-like and distant from the modern Lazio average the individuals are still all over the place some look they are Alpine-Italians and others look like they are from the Lebanon or Cyprus that is why it is hard to understand the genetic profile of ancient Rome. If large numbers of Jews from the Levant or other Levantines were in fact brought to or came to the city of Rome this could explain why so many ancient Romans look no different than modern fully Levantine samples or are shifted towards the Levant more so than any modern Southern Italian. The Ancient Romans of Central Italy do not form a tight cluster at all

Woozler
09-12-2021, 12:43 AM
Where are you even getting this? It's actually closer to 15 than 20.Italian Jews have less steppe than any Italian, Sicilian and Maltese popn we seen.

From this. I'm not sure who posted this, someone on this site:

46542

Claudio
09-12-2021, 01:29 AM
46541

Ancient Roman samples from Rome itself were plotted all over. So I have an issue with the "average" While it is true that from samples we have collected so far are when you average them all together Southern-Italian-like and distant from the modern Lazio average the individuals are still all over the place some look they are Alpine-Italians and others look like they are from the Lebanon or Cyprus that is why it is hard to understand the genetic profile of ancient Rome. If large numbers of Jews from the Levant or other Levantines were in fact brought to or came to the city of Rome this could explain why so many ancient Romans look no different than modern fully Levantine samples or are shifted towards the Levant more so than any modern Southern Italian. The Ancient Romans of Central Italy do not form a tight cluster at all

I don’t remember seeing many Alpine North Italians In the Imperial Roman era data sets of Lazio/Rome?
If I remember correctly a user on this forum even actually removed all the Levantine outliers from the Imperial Roman samples and the average still plotted with modern Southern Italians over Modern Central Italians.
I think you need to put into perspective that the great Imperial era exile of Judea post 1st & 2nd revolt was much more of a spiritual exile than a physical one and that the majority of Imperial Roman era Jewish migration to Italy came from first and foremost the descendants of the Hellenistic era formed Jewish communities of the East Mediterranean basin already based outside of Judea who peppered the East Med and were already admixed to a certain extent with Greco/Roman Gentile populations.

TheAmerican
09-12-2021, 01:54 AM
I don’t remember seeing many Alpine North Italians In the Imperial Roman era data sets of Lazio/Rome?
If I remember correctly a user on this forum even actually removed all the Levantine outliers from the Imperial Roman samples and the average still plotted with modern Southern Italians over Modern Central Italians.
I think you need to put into perspective that the great Imperial era exile of Judea post 1st & 2nd revolt was much more of a spiritual exile than a physical one and that the majority of Imperial Roman era Jewish migration to Italy came from first and foremost the descendants of the Hellenistic era formed Jewish communities of the East Mediterranean basin already based outside of Judea who peppered the East Med and were already admixed to a certain extent with Greco/Roman Gentile populations.
The religious rites of the Ashkenazim and the Italkim seem quite un-Hellenistic-Jewish as if their rites/denominations would have had to switch if they if we're descended from Hellenistic/Hellenized Jews. Could you go into detail what you think about the origins of the Ashkenazim and Italkim including their DNA if possible. Thank you

StillWater
09-12-2021, 02:07 AM
Here. Polish/Ukrainian/Belarussian AJ's may be close to 25% Levantine, German AJ's closer to 1/3 Levantine even when using the Druze as a reference, although the Druze are not really of (fully) Levantine origins and are noticeably "Greek-shifted" than the Samaritans and the Lebanese.

Model is missing North European, Berber, and East Asian at the very least.

Claudio
09-12-2021, 02:09 AM
The religious rites of the Ashkenazim and the Italkim seem quite un-Hellenistic-Jewish as if their rites/denominations would have had to switch if they if we're descended from Hellenistic/Hellenized Jews. Could you go into detail what you think about the origins of the Ashkenazim and Italkim including their DNA if possible. Thank you

I’m the wrong person to ask regarding running DNA samples through the various programmes..
But from an Archeological perspective the 3rd to 6th century Jewish Catocombs of Southern Italy and Rome the inscriptions are predominately Written in Koine Greek over Latin and then Latin over Hebrew or Aramaic plus the majority of inscription which do leave a place of birth (prior to Italy) lead back to predominantly East med/West Asian & or North African locations outside of Judea.Which paired with Koine Greek dominance points towards Hellenistic diaspora origins.

Claudio
09-12-2021, 02:12 AM
The religious rites of the Ashkenazim and the Italkim seem quite un-Hellenistic-Jewish as if their rites/denominations would have had to switch if they if we're descended from Hellenistic/Hellenized Jews. Could you go into detail what you think about the origins of the Ashkenazim and Italkim including their DNA if possible. Thank you

Also the much later descendants of Hellenized Jews would have eventually changed/switched rites in the Geonic period.

Woozler
09-12-2021, 02:53 AM
Where are you even getting this? It's actually closer to 15 than 20.Italian Jews have less steppe than any Italian, Sicilian and Maltese popn we seen.

By the way, your table shows Italian Jews at 16.6% steppe, German AJ's at 21%, yet E European AJ's as 26-27% steppe, just as the table that I used. Those are pretty big jumps. Don't they imply that EE AJ's got roughly around 75% of their ancestry from German AJ's and 25% of their ancestry from steppe-rich Central/Eastern Europeans? And German AJ's got around 20-25% of their ancestry from steppe-rich Central Europeans and 75-80% from Italian Jews? Meaning that EE AJ's are about 60% Italian Jews, 40% Central/Eastern European by ancestry. Although that's not what admixture calculators seem to show, that still implies at best that EE AJ's are 30% Levantine (If the Italian Jews are 50% Levantine). Granted, this is based on simplistic ratio calculations, but such substantial increase in steppe ancestry still needs to be addressed.

Plus, it doesn't make much sense based on what we know, does it? EE AJ mtDNA haplogroups would have to be largely Central/Eastern European. So my question still stands: where, when and from whom did EE AJ's get so much steppe (compared not just to Italian Jews, but apparently also to German AJ's)?

The issue of the Imperial Romans (quite steppe-poor, extremely Anatolia-shifted) needs to be addressed, because I suspect we won't be able to figure out the origins of the Italian Jews before we figure out when and how the Imperial Romans turned into modern Italians.

Woozler
09-12-2021, 05:13 AM
I decided to take another look at that Costa paper from 2013 on AJ maternal lineages, and this is what it said:

Almost half of mtDNAs in west/central European Ashkenazi
Jews belong to haplogroup K, declining to 15% in east
European Jews...

Besides the four haplogroup K and N1b founders, the major
haplogroup in Ashkenazi Jews is haplogroup H, at 23% of
Ashkenazi lineages...
Most, in fact, nest more specifically within west/central European
subclades, with closely matching sequences in east Europe, as
with the pattern for the K founder clades....

Haplogroups U5, U4 and HV0 (6.3% between them overall)
arose within Europe. Some of these lineages, which are again
more frequent in the eastern than western Ashkenazi, may have
been assimilated in central Europe.

I completely forgot about it. For some reason I got it into my head that German and EE AJ's have very similar and very S Europe-like mtDNA haplogroup distribution patterns.

So there is no mystery, I suppose. EE AJ's maternal lineages are heavily central European. Unexpectedly, AJ's may have kept marrying central European women even as they moved into E Europe (or perhaps it's just that more admixed AJ's were more likely to move to E Europe?)

alexfritz
09-12-2021, 02:14 PM
46541

Ancient Roman samples from Rome itself were plotted all over. So I have an issue with the "average" While it is true that from samples we have collected so far are when you average them all together Southern-Italian-like and distant from the modern Lazio average the individuals are still all over the place some look they are Alpine-Italians and others look like they are from the Lebanon or Cyprus that is why it is hard to understand the genetic profile of ancient Rome. If large numbers of Jews from the Levant or other Levantines were in fact brought to or came to the city of Rome this could explain why so many ancient Romans look no different than modern fully Levantine samples or are shifted towards the Levant more so than any modern Southern Italian. The Ancient Romans of Central Italy do not form a tight cluster at all

what seems 'all over' are actually three seperate clusters; as the paper established based on haplotype-sharing of each sample; a near-east cluster and two (cognate) mediterranean clusters (Med. and East-Med.) on a cline towards the near-east cluster; the mediterranean clusters proved the dominant roman pop. in both the imperial era and late-antiquity and compatible (Med.) with succeeding clusters (9th-12thc. and 14th-17thc.) as well as modern central and south italians
(a continuity)

so if you want to make full sense out of the roman samples you need to structure them acc. to their clusters (see:paper)

Cabaon
09-12-2021, 07:58 PM
By the way, I'm curious why this "Moorish Berber" lineage ended up being so common in Sudan, but seems comparatively sparse among Berbers. I think that the V88 in the Sudanese isn't Berber and that its presence in Jews relates to the historical interaction between Northeast Africa and the Levant - i.e The Exodus, to which ever degree it is true.

When discussing such topic people tend to forget the founder effect that happened with E-M81 2200-2000 years ago which erased the previous diversity. We can still see this diversity among the guanche samples and many of them were under R1b :

https://i.imgur.com/mve1XJZ.png

Seabass
09-13-2021, 06:10 AM
The steppe in Lybian and Tunisian Jews might perhaps be explained by the fact that they are heavily Sephardic?


'Heavily' Sephardic, they aren't at all, not even lightly. The Sephardim have had a far more dominant affect culturally rather than genetically when they moved to the Maghreb and Ottoman lands.


From this. I'm not sure who posted this, someone on this site:

46542

I see. Either way whatever the model the persisting trend is that Italian Jews (from Rome, Lazio too...) have less steppe than Sicilians, Maltese, Campanian and Calabrians. The most Near Eastern shifted bunch of Italians. I still think most of their steppe goes back to the East-Mediterranean.

Claudio
09-13-2021, 10:39 AM
'Heavily' Sephardic, they aren't at all, not even lightly. The Sephardim have had a far more dominant affect culturally rather than genetically when they moved to the Maghreb and Ottoman lands.



I see. Either way whatever the model the persisting trend is that Italian Jews (from Rome, Lazio too...) have less steppe than Sicilians, Maltese, Campanian and Calabrians. The most Near Eastern shifted bunch of Italians. I still think most of their steppe goes back to the East-Mediterranean.

There’s always the possibility that the increased Steppe in EEAJ’s comes from having more Mizrahi admixture from a medieval Mizrahi group who may have already been admixed with Iranian’s.
Could you run the various Mizrahi groups alongside your previous table to see how much Steppe they score comparatively?

Woozler
09-13-2021, 05:15 PM
'
I see. Either way whatever the model the persisting trend is that Italian Jews (from Rome, Lazio too...) have less steppe than Sicilians, Maltese, Campanian and Calabrians. The most Near Eastern shifted bunch of Italians. I still think most of their steppe goes back to the East-Mediterranean.

For the Italian Jews, probably. But the Costa mtDNA paper seems to be unequivocal about the large scale replacement of maternal lineages in EE AJ's. EE AJ's come largely from Central European (and to a lesser extent Eastern European) mothers. Those early medieval Rheinland Jewish communities may have still been Karaite and freely married local women, which diluted the Levantine ancestry in European Jews from possibly something in the vicinity of 40-50% in Italian Jews to something closer to 25-30% in Ukrainian and Polish AJ's.

Olymp
09-13-2021, 06:57 PM
Tepecik is only 50% Anatolian Hunter Gatherer.

Woozler
09-13-2021, 08:31 PM
Tepecik is only 50% Anatolian Hunter Gatherer.

And it explains really well why Italians have extra Levantine and Iranian/Caucasian ancestry in addition to Anatolian HG. The fits are better and it certainly makes a lot more historical sense than S Italians receiving 12% of their ancestry directly from the Levant. Problem is, it eats considerably into the European Jews' Levantine ancestry, making them appear more European/Italian.

Could somebody run this for Italian and Sephardic Jews as well, in addition to the AJ's?


Target: South_Italian:Mainland
Distance: 1.3586% / 0.01358644
54.6 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
24.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
13.0 TUR_Barcin_N
4.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.2 Levant_PPNB
1.2 MAR_Taforalt
0.2 Han
0.2 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps

Target: Ashkenazi_Belarussia
Distance: 1.3486% / 0.01348628
38.2 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
27.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
13.0 Levant_PPNB
12.2 TUR_Barcin_N
5.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.6 MAR_Taforalt
1.4 Han_Guangdong

leorcooper19
09-13-2021, 10:33 PM
For the Italian Jews, probably. But the Costa mtDNA paper seems to be unequivocal about the large scale replacement of maternal lineages in EE AJ's. EE AJ's come largely from Central European (and to a lesser extent Eastern European) mothers. Those early medieval Rheinland Jewish communities may have still been Karaite and freely married local women, which diluted the Levantine ancestry in European Jews from possibly something in the vicinity of 40-50% in Italian Jews to something closer to 25-30% in Ukrainian and Polish AJ's.

1. Something that not a lot of people realize is just how few mtDNAs Ashkenazi Jews actually carry. Most people with a surface level knowledge will know that K1a1b1a is huge, but not everyone knows it makes up 20% of all maternal lines (on average). Add together the top 10 most common lineages and you get 51.4% of maternal lines, and the top 20 maternal lineages cover over 65% of maternal lines! (Source: https://jewishdna.net/Mtdna.html) Basically, the point I'm trying to make is that- really due to problematic language from the original studies on the topic- the "large scale replacement of maternal lineages" for Ashkenazim is not actually true. What's true is that Ashkenazi Jews just had a really small founding population, and what little admixture they did get after that founding era really stuck around due to continued endogamy.

2. I've never seen any indication that the early-to-high medieval Jews of the Rhineland were Karaites.

3. My personal bet for BA Levantine ancestry among AJs is 35-41% for German Jews and 32-38% for Eastern Ashkenazim. I think that most models where EAJs score ~25% BA Levant are overfit.


And it explains really well why Italians have extra Levantine and Iranian/Caucasian ancestry in addition to Anatolian HG. The fits are better and it certainly makes a lot more historical sense than S Italians receiving 12% of their ancestry directly from the Levant. Problem is, it eats considerably into the European Jews' Levantine ancestry, making them appear more European/Italian.

Is it though? Forum member Principe has told me that at least 11.2% of Sicilian Y chromosomes are of Levantine origin. That's the sum of all obviously Levantine-derived Ys, with questionable lineages- including all within J2a or E(xM84, xV12)- not included.

I've seen people using Tepechik and Barcin samples together in models but I'm not familiar with the difference between them. How and why are they used they way they are?

StillWater
09-13-2021, 10:47 PM
Those early medieval Rheinland Jewish communities may have still been Karaite and freely married local women

Just because Karaites follow patrilineal descent, doesn't mean they freely marry gentile women. In fact, some Karaite groups may have less admixture then neighboring Rabbinate groups. And all Karaites seem to have less recent admixture than Rabbinate Jews.

Seabass
09-14-2021, 12:37 AM
There’s always the possibility that the increased Steppe in EEAJ’s comes from having more Mizrahi admixture from a medieval Mizrahi group who may have already been admixed with Iranian’s.
Could you run the various Mizrahi groups alongside your previous table to see how much Steppe they score comparatively?

It could explain a small fraction of it maybe. Most of their steppe will probably be mediated through a similar donor source as other Western Jews.

46559

Woozler
09-14-2021, 01:20 AM
1. Something that not a lot of people realize is just how few mtDNAs Ashkenazi Jews actually carry. Most people with a surface level knowledge will know that K1a1b1a is huge, but not everyone knows it makes up 20% of all maternal lines (on average). Add together the top 10 most common lineages and you get 51.4% of maternal lines

I'm solely relying on that Costa paper: "Almost half of mtDNAs in west/central European Ashkenazi Jews belong to haplogroup K, declining to 15% in east European Jews..." Do you know with more certainty which haplogroups are dominant in Polish/Ukrainian AJ's? Because this sentence implies vastly different matrilineal descent in western and eastern AJ's. And it explains VERY well the jump in steppe from 15-17% in Italian/Sephardic Jews to 26-28% in EE AJ's - which needs to be addressed if you don't think EE AJ's got it from central/eastern European women.


2. I've never seen any indication that the early-to-high medieval Jews of the Rhineland were Karaites.

We do know that Ashkenazi Jews are descended almost entirely from European women. Whatever branch of Judaism they adhered to, they clearly did not mind local conversions.


3. My personal bet for BA Levantine ancestry among AJs is 35-41% for German Jews and 32-38% for Eastern Ashkenazim. I think that most models where EAJs score ~25% BA Levant are overfit.

Where did EAJ's get so much steppe, then? Compared to IJ's 17%?


Is it though? Forum member Principe has told me that at least 11.2% of Sicilian Y chromosomes are of Levantine origin. That's the sum of all obviously Levantine-derived Ys, with questionable lineages- including all within J2a or E(xM84, xV12)- not included.

For EAJ's, that actually doesn't even matter, really. Instead of comparing Italians with EAJ's, we can just compare EAJ's with Italian Jews (that turned out to have a lot less steppe than I thought) and try to figure out where all that extra steppe comes from in EAJ's. It might get trickier when we try to figure out the admixture ratio of Italian Jews, when the two presumed principal components in them are both high in Levant PPNB (S Italian-like population of late Antiquity Italy plus Levantines).


Just because Karaites follow patrilineal descent, doesn't mean they freely marry gentile women. In fact, some Karaite groups may have less admixture then neighboring Rabbinate groups. And all Karaites seem to have less recent admixture than Rabbinate Jews.

Proselytism and conversions seem not to have been broadly tolerated, they were likely actively encouraged in European Jewish communities well into the High Middle Ages. Halakhic, rabbinical Judaism may be a relatively recent phenomenon among the Ashkenazim.

"We may perceive, from the variety of texts avaiable, that Jewish proselytism in the earlier Middle Ages was a phenomenon that can be traced from the ninth century onwards, and seems to have reached its apogee in the eleventh century... Many of the proselytes described in the Cairo Genizah manuscripts came from either western European or Byzantine lands."

https://oi.uchicago.edu/sites/oi.uchicago.edu/files/uploads/shared/docs/jewish_proselytism.pdf (it has more).

And as in Antiquity, it's quite likely that women were far more likely to convert to Judaism then men.

leorcooper19
09-14-2021, 02:09 AM
I'm solely relying on that Costa paper: "Almost half of mtDNAs in west/central European Ashkenazi Jews belong to haplogroup K, declining to 15% in east European Jews..." Do you know with more certainty which haplogroups are dominant in Polish/Ukrainian AJ's? Because this sentence implies vastly different matrilineal descent in western and eastern AJ's. And it explains VERY well the jump in steppe from 15-17% in Italian/Sephardic Jews to 26-28% in EE AJ's - which needs to be addressed if you don't think EE AJ's got it from central/eastern European women.

We do know that Ashkenazi Jews are descended almost entirely from European women. Whatever branch of Judaism they adhered to, they clearly did not mind local conversions.

Where did EAJ's get so much steppe, then? Compared to IJ's 17%?

That speaks more to how extreme the founder effect still is for German Jews; according to Costa, almost 40% of them are in K1a1b1a, which means that single lineage accounts for 80% of all German Jews in hg K. Don't get me wrong, the increase in steppe is certainly from Central and Eastern Europeans, who were indeed mainly female. However, there are a couple of asterisks that come with that:

One major issue is, Costa et al. 2013 overestimated their assignment of lineages to European vs Near Eastern based on a flawed method (that is, historical and phylogenetic parsimony based on what scientific samples they had access to in 2011-2012). For example, take K1a1b1a, which they determined was securely European, a clade that now has its closest modern matches among Tunisian Berbers. Or, take K2a2a1, which to Costa said was "nested deeply in European diversity," yet now is closest to Saudi and Emiratis at K2a2a2.

Another major issue is, again, misunderstanding what the genetic evidence actually says. Yes, Ashkenazim- like all Jewish populations- have probable majority matrilineal descent from their historical host populations. BUT, these ancestors were not many, as there are likely less than 100 total maternal lineages in the Ashkenazi population, again with the top 20 containing almost 2/3 of the entire population. We're really only talking about maybe 50-75 individual women who have direct descendants in the AJ population, with most of those only representing small and tiny lineages. In my opinion, only 8 of those 20 are almost certainly Near Eastern (those 8 total to 22.1% of the pop), with most others being of likely to certain European origin. So while there were converts, there weren't many, they just had a huge impact on the gene pool.

In summary: genetic drift makes effective interpretation of uniparentals very difficult. Genetic drift, combined with an insufficient reference sample (of moderns and ancients), and a highly politicized topic (ethnogenesis of Ashkenazim could top a list of those), makes this whole thing extremely difficult to get right. So if you're really interested in this stuff, I'd recommend caution and patience ;)

Seabass
09-14-2021, 02:23 AM
Why are you looking to just Italian Jews? Why not German Jews/France(Alsatian) Jews which we have in G25? Western Ashkenazim despite very likely having a small non-Southern European origin, still have a bit less Steppe than Southern Italians. Anyway, I think this thread is circling around too much this jump of 8% steppe from Italian Jews, or say 4-5% from Western Ashkenazim. Maybe consider that this jump has to do with:

1) actual minor absorption of Slavs (high in steppe) among EAJ's which very few Jews here are denying

and/or

2) G25 being not quite fully equipped/lack of source populations used despite many AJ groups being averaged from a high sample count. Possibly something Mizrahi and/or East-Eurasian could be slightly exaggerating the Rus_Samara_Yamnaya in EAJ's along with maybe another component as they play tug of war. As an example, if you remove MAR_Tarofalt for a berber component, Sephardic Jews will score more Natufian than Romaniotes in these kinds of models, but than if you introduce it, they will score less. Perhaps there is a missing source high in Steppe which is failing to accurately level out RUS_Samara_Yamnaya in EAJs.

StillWater
09-14-2021, 02:32 AM
Proselytism and conversions seem not to have been broadly tolerated, they were likely actively encouraged in European Jewish communities well into the High Middle Ages. Halakhic, rabbinical Judaism may be a relatively recent phenomenon among the Ashkenazim.

"We may perceive, from the variety of texts avaiable, that Jewish proselytism in the earlier Middle Ages was a phenomenon that can be traced from the ninth century onwards, and seems to have reached its apogee in the eleventh century... Many of the proselytes described in the Cairo Genizah manuscripts came from either western European or Byzantine lands."

https://oi.uchicago.edu/sites/oi.uchicago.edu/files/uploads/shared/docs/jewish_proselytism.pdf (it has more).

And as in Antiquity, it's quite likely that women were far more likely to convert to Judaism then men.

You must've not read the paper. I've skimmed almost the whole thing over and I don't see any encouraged case. Even if I missed 1-2, then they're clearly outliers to the rest of the paper. Also, the paper has a decent portion of male cases. The idea that Ashkenazim weren't Rabbinical at first is a funny claim.

Woozler
09-14-2021, 03:13 AM
In summary: genetic drift makes effective interpretation of uniparentals very difficult. Genetic drift, combined with an insufficient reference sample (of moderns and ancients), and a highly politicized topic (ethnogenesis of Ashkenazim could top a list of those), makes this whole thing extremely difficult to get right. So if you're really interested in this stuff, I'd recommend caution and patience ;)

Oh, I have plenty of both. But I do want to get to the bottom of this matter.


Why are you looking to just Italian Jews? Why not German Jews/France(Alsatian) Jews which we have in G25? Western Ashkenazim despite very likely having a small non-Southern European origin, still have a bit less Steppe than Southern Italians.

I'm focusing mostly on EAJ's, for personal reasons, I suppose, so I'm just trying to figure out how EAJ's got so much steppe. I'm not sure if the German or French (or even Italian) Jews are exactly like the original source population for EAJ's. Germany, especially Hamburg, received a massive inflow of Sephardic Jews a few centuries ago, so that many modern German AJ's are likely a mix of the original Ashkenazim and the Sephardic refugees or even simply Germanized Sephardim. The problem is, the same may apply to the Italian Jews as well. Anyway, German AJ's being much higher in steppe before the Sephardic admixture makes more sense to me than the idea of Jews marrying Polish women in significant numbers in 16-17th century Rzechpospolita.


1) actual minor absorption of Slavs (high in steppe) among EAJ's which very few Jews here are denying

To go from 17% to 26-27% requires something considerably more than a "minor absorption". It looks more like a roughly 60-40 mixture of Italian Jews and some steppe-rich European population. The Costa paper, whatever its deficiencies, implied that the mtDNA haplogroups in EAJ's appear to be more central than eastern european, plus, as I said, the idea of Jews marrying significant numbers of Polish women in the 16th and 17th century just feels wrong. So I'm not sure why you're insisting on a primarily Slavic, rather than Rheinland, absorption.


As an example, if you remove MAR_Tarofalt for a berber component, Sephardic Jews will score more Natufian than Romaniotes in these kinds of models, but than if you introduce it, they will score less. Perhaps there is a missing source high in Steppe which is failing to accurately level out RUS_Samara_Yamnaya in EAJs.

Yes, and we have seen Levant PPNB jump in Italians from 1.2 to 12 percent. But, curiously, the Yamnaya share stayed the same regardless of the model used. Perhaps it's just a bit too different from the other source populations.

Woozler
09-14-2021, 03:23 AM
You must've not read the paper. I've skimmed almost the whole thing over and I don't see any encouraged case. Even if I missed 1-2, then they're clearly outliers to the rest of the paper. Also, the paper has a decent portion of male cases. The idea that Ashkenazim weren't Rabbinical at first is a funny claim.

Let me quote this paper: "..it becomes evident that the total number of proselytes fleeing their European homelands and arriving in the Jewish communities of the Islamic world (excluding those of Iran) between 1000 and 1200 C.E. was approimately 300 x 50, or fifteen thousand men and women over the span of two centuries. Due to unknown factors, the figure could have been either somewhat higher or somewhat lower, but hardly less than a minimum of ten thousand individuals, or five thousand each century. In this interpretation, the data in Genizah texts pertaining to Jewish proselytism constitutes only the paradigm of a quite large and interesting phenomenon of the earlier Middle Ages requiring explanation and further study."

The paper mainly brings attention to the apparently massive inflow of converts to Judaism to Islamic countries from Europe, nothing more. Significant flow of European Jewish refugees, converts or not, to the Islamic world may also explain the elevated steppe ancestry in N African and other Mizrahi communities, come to think of it.

Seabass
09-14-2021, 03:51 AM
I'm focusing mostly on EAJ's, for personal reasons, I suppose, so I'm just trying to figure out how EAJ's got so much steppe. I'm not sure if the German or French (or even Italian) Jews are exactly like the original source population for EAJ's. Germany, especially Hamburg, received a massive inflow of Sephardic Jews a few centuries ago, so that many modern German AJ's are likely a mix of the original Ashkenazim and the Sephardic refugees or even simply Germanized Sephardim. The problem is, the same may apply to the Italian Jews as well. Anyway, German AJ's being much higher in steppe before the Sephardic admixture makes more sense to me than the idea of Jews marrying Polish women in significant numbers in 16-17th century Rzechpospolita.

You're right, no community has been that isolated and using a medieval Jewish average (which we don't have yet) will always trump using a modern Jewish average. But still, it makes so much more sense to me to model EAJ's with Ashkenazi Germans or French (Alsatian) Jews. The Italian Jews too are from Rome and likely predominantly Italki in origin, descending from Southern Italkim (Sicily, Campania, Calabria, Apulia) and Northern Italkim together with Provencial Jews, Sephardic arrivals in Livorno and Venice and earlier Central European Jews of the holy Roman empire.


To go from 17% to 26-27% requires something considerably more than a "minor absorption". It looks more like a roughly 60-40 mixture of Italian Jews and some steppe-rich European population. The Costa paper, whatever its deficiencies, implied that the mtDNA haplogroups in EAJ's appear to be more central than eastern european, plus, as I said, the idea of Jews marrying significant numbers of Polish women in the 16th and 17th century just feels wrong. So I'm not sure why you're insisting on a primarily Slavic, rather than Rheinland, absorption.

Here's a model I did a while ago using Romaniote Jews. Considering most the distances for the popn's are below 1, I think that model doesn't tell the full story, but definitely has to tell some of it. I never suggested EAJ's descending only in minority from Slavs and no other non-Southern Europeans at all. I've already made clear in another post that I even think WAJ have a minority non-Southern European origin too.

46560

^ Looking at that, doubtful EAJs are like 60/40 Italian Jew + some gentile group. Romaniotes are noticeably more MENA shifted than ITJs.

StillWater
09-14-2021, 04:03 AM
Let me quote this paper: "..it becomes evident that the total number of proselytes fleeing their European homelands and arriving in the Jewish communities of the Islamic world (excluding those of Iran) between 1000 and 1200 C.E. was approimately 300 x 50, or fifteen thousand men and women over the span of two centuries. Due to unknown factors, the figure could have been either somewhat higher or somewhat lower, but hardly less than a minimum of ten thousand individuals, or five thousand each century. In this interpretation, the data in Genizah texts pertaining to Jewish proselytism constitutes only the paradigm of a quite large and interesting phenomenon of the earlier Middle Ages requiring explanation and further study."

The paper mainly brings attention to the apparently massive inflow of converts to Judaism to Islamic countries from Europe, nothing more. Significant flow of European Jewish refugees, converts or not, to the Islamic world may also explain the elevated steppe ancestry in N African and other Mizrahi communities, come to think of it.

15000 may sound like a lot, but it may not be. Assuming the following: 7 generations between 1000CE and 1200CE, a steady flow of these converts, the Jewish population of Islamic countries being 200k (likely a lowball), and it remaining at 200k each generation, then I'm coming to the admixture amount of 7%* by 1200CE.

And again, that quote doesn't demonstrate encouragement.

Also, what's this obsession with Steppe? Jewish converts didn't pop up in the Neolithic. Why not use later references?

passenger
09-14-2021, 04:19 AM
Germany, especially Hamburg, received a massive inflow of Sephardic Jews a few centuries ago, so that many modern German AJ's are likely a mix of the original Ashkenazim and the Sephardic refugees or even simply Germanized Sephardim. The problem is, the same may apply to the Italian Jews as well. Anyway, German AJ's being much higher in steppe before the Sephardic admixture makes more sense to me than the idea of Jews marrying Polish women in significant numbers in 16-17th century Rzechpospolita.

This may not be key to the broader issues being discussed here, but since this caught my eye, I'd just add that "massive" seems like a major overstatement. Considering that the Amsterdam Sephardic community, the largest of its kind in the Early Modern Western Sephardic world, wasn't much more than 3,000 strong at its height in the late 17th to early 18th century and had already been dwarfed by Ashkenazim by the 18th century it's quite hard for me to imagine that its smaller satellite/sister communities in Germany would have had that significant of a demographic impact among German Jewry. Besides, you should also take into consideration potential differences between the (mainly) converso-descended Western Sephardim who set up in 17th-century Western Europe and the Iberian Jews who left for the Mediterranean one or two centuries earlier and intermarried with the local (and non-local) Jewish populations they encountered throughout their diaspora.

leorcooper19
09-14-2021, 04:54 AM
I'm focusing mostly on EAJ's, for personal reasons, I suppose, so I'm just trying to figure out how EAJ's got so much steppe. I'm not sure if the German or French (or even Italian) Jews are exactly like the original source population for EAJ's. Germany, especially Hamburg, received a massive inflow of Sephardic Jews a few centuries ago, so that many modern German AJ's are likely a mix of the original Ashkenazim and the Sephardic refugees or even simply Germanized Sephardim. The problem is, the same may apply to the Italian Jews as well. Anyway, German AJ's being much higher in steppe before the Sephardic admixture makes more sense to me than the idea of Jews marrying Polish women in significant numbers in 16-17th century Rzechpospolita.

To go from 17% to 26-27% requires something considerably more than a "minor absorption". It looks more like a roughly 60-40 mixture of Italian Jews and some steppe-rich European population. The Costa paper, whatever its deficiencies, implied that the mtDNA haplogroups in EAJ's appear to be more central than eastern european, plus, as I said, the idea of Jews marrying significant numbers of Polish women in the 16th and 17th century just feels wrong. So I'm not sure why you're insisting on a primarily Slavic, rather than Rheinland, absorption.

1. Passenger covered this well, but I'll reiterate; modern German Jews do have some small amount of post-expulsion Sephardic ancestry, but they are by-in-large direct (>95%) descendants of medieval Jews of Central Europe. That means, of course, that they are indeed good (not perfect) proxies for those "proto-EAJs" of Bohemia/Silesia/Galicia.

2. My point with the uniparentals has apparently not quite sunk in yet. Again: the pool of mtDNAs for Ashkenazim is extremely small. EAJs, however, have a more diverse mtDNA profile than WAJs, with the presence of more likely-to-certain European mtDNAs. Yet even with a bit more diversity, we're still only looking at a few dozen lineages containing the vast majority of the entire population. Critically: there is no evidence for any "significant" rates of marriage between Polish women and Ashkenazi men in the high-to-late medieval period, yet there is rather clear genetic evidence of only 3-6 dozen women marrying into a breeding population of probably <1000. You're underestimating the power of genetic drift, both as it relates to uniparentals and autosomals. What if the ~50 women converts were- just by random chance- a bit Steppe-shifted compared to their general populations? Or, what if the initial generations after them inherited more of their Steppe than average? With a gene pool so small, some bumpy results should be expected.

At the end of the day, StillWater is right; this discussion is moot without more proximate models.
Target Distance French_Jew Han_Fujian KAZ_Nomad_IA PAK_Udegram_IA RUS_Alan_MA Slavic
Ashkenazi_Russia:Ashk_RU_RU_5 0.01484827 81.8 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 18.2
Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_12 0.01659815 84.0 1.6 0.0 0.0 0.0 14.4
Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_4 0.03104326 82.0 0.0 3.8 0.0 0.0 14.2
Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_11 0.02520490 84.4 0.0 1.4 0.0 0.0 14.2
Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_19 0.01980302 83.2 0.0 1.4 0.0 1.4 14.0
Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_25 0.01907207 83.2 0.8 0.0 0.0 2.8 13.2
Ashkenazi_Belarussia:Ashk_BY_BY_4 0.01388085 80.4 0.0 0.0 0.4 6.4 12.8
Ashkenazi_Belarussia:Ashk_BY_BY_10 0.01611810 84.2 1.2 0.0 0.0 2.2 12.4
Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_5 0.01696686 84.2 2.0 0.0 0.0 1.8 12.0
Ashkenazi_Lithuania:Ashk_LT_LT_3 0.01881220 82.8 0.0 0.0 0.0 5.4 11.8
Ashkenazi_Russia:Ashk_RU_RU_3 0.01919706 86.4 1.4 0.6 0.0 0.0 11.6
Ashkenazi_Russia:Ashk_RU_RU_10 0.01357373 77.6 1.0 0.0 1.8 8.0 11.6
Ashkenazi_Lithuania:Ashk_LT_LT_1 0.01852661 84.2 2.0 0.0 1.2 1.2 11.4
Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_8 0.02122773 83.6 0.6 3.2 0.0 1.4 11.2
Ashkenazi_Belarussia:Ashk_BY_BY_5 0.01746179 89.2 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 10.8
Ashkenazi_Lithuania:Ashk_LT_LT_6 0.02367719 85.4 1.4 0.0 0.0 2.4 10.8
Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_10 0.01849767 85.8 0.0 0.8 0.0 2.6 10.8
Ashkenazi_Belarussia:Ashk_BY_BY_1 0.02801794 82.2 0.0 0.4 0.6 6.2 10.6
Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_15 0.01829702 83.8 0.0 0.6 0.0 5.0 10.6
Ashkenazi_Lithuania:Ashk_LT_LT_11 0.01807529 86.2 1.4 2.0 0.0 0.0 10.4
Ashkenazi_Russia:Ashk_RU_RU_2 0.01678792 82.6 0.0 2.6 0.0 4.4 10.4
Ashkenazi_Belarussia:Ashk_BY_BY_6 0.01875350 85.0 1.4 0.0 0.0 3.8 9.8
Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_24 0.02395495 89.0 0.0 0.2 0.0 1.0 9.8
Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_1 0.01479464 84.6 1.8 0.0 0.6 3.4 9.6
Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_16 0.03293792 90.2 0.4 0.0 0.0 0.0 9.4
Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_18 0.02160992 89.0 1.6 0.0 0.0 0.0 9.4
Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_2 0.01723124 90.0 0.8 0.0 0.0 0.0 9.2
Ashkenazi_Russia:Ashk_RU_RU_9 0.02280363 88.6 2.2 0.0 0.0 0.0 9.2
Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_4 0.01523870 89.2 1.6 0.0 0.0 0.0 9.2
Ashkenazi_Russia:Ashk_RU_RU_11 0.01998348 89.6 1.4 0.0 0.0 0.0 9.0
Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_3 0.01347808 83.2 1.0 0.0 0.0 6.8 9.0
Ashkenazi_Russia:Ashk_RU_RU_6 0.02875224 89.2 1.0 1.0 0.0 0.0 8.8
Ashkenazi_Belarussia:Ashk_BY_BY_9 0.02886272 89.4 1.4 0.6 0.0 0.0 8.6
Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_9 0.01754708 87.0 0.0 1.8 0.0 2.6 8.6
Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_9 0.01826555 87.8 0.0 0.0 0.0 3.6 8.6
Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_17 0.01419232 90.6 0.0 0.0 0.8 0.0 8.6
Ashkenazi_Russia:Ashk_RU_RU_8 0.01841187 80.2 1.2 0.0 0.0 10.2 8.4
Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_20 0.01225424 88.2 0.0 0.0 1.6 1.8 8.4
Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_23 0.01979474 88.6 0.0 2.2 0.0 1.0 8.2
Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_7 0.02023566 87.2 0.0 0.0 4.2 0.4 8.2
Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_13 0.02728960 87.0 0.0 2.4 0.0 2.4 8.2
Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_15 0.02578680 89.8 0.8 1.4 0.0 0.0 8.0
Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_29 0.01768363 91.2 0.0 0.8 0.0 0.0 8.0
Ashkenazi_Belarussia:Ashk_BY_BY_8 0.01525916 84.8 1.4 0.0 0.0 6.0 7.8
Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_1 0.02914487 89.8 1.6 1.0 0.0 0.0 7.6
Ashkenazi_Belarussia:Ashk_BY_BY_7 0.01535442 82.2 0.0 6.0 0.0 4.4 7.4
Ashkenazi_Lithuania:Ashk_LT_LT_10 0.01052365 83.6 0.0 0.6 0.0 8.4 7.4
Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_14 0.02200205 87.8 0.6 4.0 0.4 0.0 7.2
Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_21 0.02037708 91.6 1.4 0.0 0.0 0.0 7.0
Ashkenazi_Belarussia:Ashk_BY_BY_12 0.01549661 85.8 0.0 2.8 0.0 4.6 6.8
Ashkenazi_Lithuania:Ashk_LT_LT_4 0.02697621 90.6 1.4 0.0 1.2 0.0 6.8
Ashkenazi_Lithuania:Ashk_LT_LT_2 0.01824785 89.6 2.0 0.0 0.0 1.8 6.6
Ashkenazi_Belarussia:Ashk_BY_BY_2 0.02435402 87.2 0.0 0.0 3.6 2.8 6.4
Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_21 0.02777933 91.0 1.0 0.0 1.6 0.0 6.4
Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_26 0.02082946 92.8 0.8 0.0 0.0 0.0 6.4
Ashkenazi_Belarussia:Ashk_BY_BY_3 0.02333940 88.8 0.0 5.0 0.0 0.0 6.2
Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_10 0.01749102 91.2 0.0 0.4 2.2 0.0 6.2
Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_2 0.02435871 86.6 0.0 7.2 0.0 0.0 6.2
Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_13 0.02646221 93.2 0.0 0.6 0.2 0.0 6.0
Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_6 0.01560417 91.2 0.0 3.0 0.0 0.0 5.8
Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_8 0.03076292 92.2 0.0 2.0 0.0 0.0 5.8
Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_11 0.02386093 92.6 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.6 5.8
Ashkenazi_Belarussia:Ashk_BY_BY_11 0.02287396 93.0 1.6 0.0 0.0 0.0 5.4
Ashkenazi_Lithuania:Ashk_LT_LT_7 0.02471760 85.2 1.6 0.0 0.0 7.8 5.4
Ashkenazi_Lithuania:Ashk_LT_LT_9 0.02178620 89.4 0.0 1.2 3.4 0.6 5.4
Ashkenazi_Germany:Ashk_DE_DE_8 0.02717768 94.2 0.0 0.0 0.6 0.0 5.2
Ashkenazi_Lithuania:Ashk_LT_LT_8 0.01603109 89.0 0.0 0.8 2.2 2.8 5.2
Ashkenazi_Germany:Ashk_DE_DE_2 0.01514506 92.6 0.0 0.2 0.0 2.6 4.6
Ashkenazi_Germany:Ashk_DE_DE_5 0.01733365 94.4 1.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 4.6
Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_18 0.01480509 80.8 0.0 2.6 0.0 12.2 4.4
Ashkenazi_Belarussia:Ashk_BY_BY_13 0.02160443 86.2 0.0 0.8 0.0 8.8 4.2
Ashkenazi_Lithuania:Ashk_LT_LT_5 0.02629083 92.0 0.0 0.0 3.8 0.0 4.2
Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_16 0.01970102 95.2 0.6 0.0 0.0 0.0 4.2
Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_28 0.02425130 96.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 4.0
Ashkenazi_Germany:Ashk_DE_DE_10 0.02399240 95.8 0.0 0.4 0.0 0.0 3.8
Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_14 0.01862085 91.2 0.0 5.2 0.0 0.0 3.6
Ashkenazi_Russia:Ashk_RU_RU_1 0.01245118 87.2 0.8 1.4 1.4 5.8 3.4
Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_5 0.02234856 91.4 0.2 5.2 0.0 0.4 2.8
Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_12 0.01515380 92.4 0.0 0.0 0.0 5.0 2.6
Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_22 0.02750049 88.2 0.0 1.2 0.0 8.0 2.6
Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_27 0.01770457 97.8 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 2.2
Ashkenazi_Russia:Ashk_RU_RU_4 0.01341697 88.6 1.4 2.2 0.8 4.8 2.2
Ashkenazi_Germany:Ashk_DE_DE_3 0.02412866 98.6 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.4
Ashkenazi_Germany:Ashk_DE_DE_11 0.01719332 99.2 0.0 0.6 0.0 0.0 0.2
Ashkenazi_Germany:Ashk_DE_DE_1 0.02403272 100.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
Ashkenazi_Germany:Ashk_DE_DE_4 0.02165757 100.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
Ashkenazi_Germany:Ashk_DE_DE_6 0.02204741 99.4 0.0 0.0 0.6 0.0 0.0
Ashkenazi_Germany:Ashk_DE_DE_9 0.02442122 95.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 5.0 0.0
Average 0.02045638 88.6 0.5 0.9 0.4 2.1 7.5

StillWater
09-14-2021, 04:56 AM
Oh, I have plenty of both. But I do want to get to the bottom of this matter. I'm focusing mostly on EAJ's, for personal reasons, I suppose, so I'm just trying to figure out how EAJ's got so much steppe.


Look, forget the Steppe for a second. I've posted models here before for the East European admix in EAJs based on more recent populations. It came out to 1/10-1/8.

Woozler
09-14-2021, 05:00 AM
Here's a model I did a while ago using Romaniote Jews. Considering most the distances for the popn's are below 1, I think that model doesn't tell the full story, but definitely has to tell some of it. I never suggested EAJ's descending only in minority from Slavs and no other non-Southern Europeans at all. I've already made clear in another post that I even think WAJ have a minority non-Southern European origin too.

46560

^ Looking at that, doubtful EAJs are like 60/40 Italian Jew + some gentile group. Romaniotes are noticeably more MENA shifted than ITJs.

Uff.. too many models. Here are some more:

[1] "distance%=2.5682"

Romaniote_Jew

Levant_BA_North,39.2
Iberia_Northeast_Greek_15_8_Average,33.4
Mycenaean,20.2
Mozabite,7.2

For Sephardic Jews, I've also added Iberia_Northeast and the North Italian-like Collegno samples. This is what I got:

[1] "distance%=1.9649"


Sephardic_Jew


Levant_BA_North,38.4
Iberia_Northeast_Greek_15_8_Average,36
Italy_Medieval_Collegno,11.8
Mozabite,7.6
Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE,6.2

^^ Mycenaean simply disappears into "Iberia_Northeast_Greek_15_8_Average".

[1] "distance%=1.9486"

Ashkenazi_Jew

Iberia_Northeast_Greek_15_8_Average,37.2
Levant_BA_North,31.8
Polish,9.2
Italy_Medieval_Collegno,9
Mozabite,6.8
Lithuanian,6
[1] "distance%=0.0677 / distance=0.000677"

Ashkenazi_Jew:average

Minoan_Lasithi:I0070 42.35
Iran_ChL:I1661 22.05
French_East:French24434 20.60
Minoan_Odigitria:I9131 7.85
Mycenaean:I9041 4.00
Levant_N:I1704 2.40
Iran_ChL:I1665 0.65

Overall Bronze Age Levant - ~25%.
Ancient Aegeans - ~54%
Eastern French (Rhineland French) - 20.6%


[1] "distance%=1.9486"


(all from Erikl86 from that long thread)

[1] "distance%=1.4208"

Ashkenazi_Jew

Levant_BA_North,45.8
Germany_Medieval,27
Mycenaean,19.4
Slavic_Bohemia,3.6
Mozabite,2.8
Mongolian,1.4

With Tuscan:

[1] "distance%=1.3668"

Ashkenazi_Jew

Levant_BA_North,41.6
Italian_Tuscan,38.2
Germany_Medieval,11.8
Mozabite,3.8
Slavic_Bohemia,3
Mongolian,1.6

(from that very same long thread)

I don't really know what to make of all that. Romaniote Jews do not appear to have significantly more MENA shifted than Sephardic Jews in Erikl86 model. Moreover, his model can make Levant_N component in Ashkenazi Jews pretty much disappear (Levant_N:I1704 2.40) and still be a good fit. And, of course, none of those models explain the high steppe in EAJs.


15000 may sound like a lot, but it may not be.

It's probably a lot compared to the size of European Jewish communities at that time.


Also, what's this obsession with Steppe? Jewish converts didn't pop up in the Neolithic. Why not use later references?

I was simply surprised with how much steppe EAJ's have. 1st century CE Levantines would've had steppe in the VERY low single digits, EAJ's have 26-27%. That's pretty massive, considering that the highest that steppe gets in Europeans is 50% in Norwegians, which makes EAJ's look like a 50-50 Levantine-Norwegian mixture, with no room for Greeks or Italians. This is not surprising to you?


Besides, you should also take into consideration potential differences between the (mainly) converso-descended Western Sephardim who set up in 17th-century Western Europe and the Iberian Jews who left for the Mediterranean one or two centuries earlier and intermarried with the local (and non-local) Jewish populations they encountered throughout their diaspora.

But then you would need to explain the genetic differences between WAJ's and EAJ's. EAJ's converting and marrying Slavic women so late makes even less sense, I think.

Woozler
09-14-2021, 05:18 AM
You're underestimating the power of genetic drift, both as it relates to uniparentals and autosomals. What if the ~50 women converts were- just by random chance- a bit Steppe-shifted compared to their general populations?

Autosomally, that wouldn't make much of a difference. Doubt there were pure Yamnaya women in Europe back then, or women with significantly more than 50% steppe ancestry. EAJ uniparentals simply show that EAJ's are descended largely from medieval rabbinical paternal lineages and central European women. Given that the biggest factor in the genetic drift was this rabbinical dominance, I would expect that rabbis' wives mtDNA lineages had a better chance of survival.


Or, what if the initial generations after them inherited more of their Steppe than average? With a gene pool so small, some bumpy results should be expected.

What if they inherited less than average? We can speculate all we want. The only facts we have are in front of us.

StillWater
09-14-2021, 06:13 AM
Uff.. too many models. Here are some more:

[1] "distance%=2.5682"

Romaniote_Jew

Levant_BA_North,39.2
Iberia_Northeast_Greek_15_8_Average,33.4
Mycenaean,20.2
Mozabite,7.2

For Sephardic Jews, I've also added Iberia_Northeast and the North Italian-like Collegno samples. This is what I got:

[1] "distance%=1.9649"


Sephardic_Jew


Levant_BA_North,38.4
Iberia_Northeast_Greek_15_8_Average,36
Italy_Medieval_Collegno,11.8
Mozabite,7.6
Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE,6.2

^^ Mycenaean simply disappears into "Iberia_Northeast_Greek_15_8_Average".

[1] "distance%=1.9486"

Ashkenazi_Jew

Iberia_Northeast_Greek_15_8_Average,37.2
Levant_BA_North,31.8
Polish,9.2
Italy_Medieval_Collegno,9
Mozabite,6.8
Lithuanian,6
[1] "distance%=0.0677 / distance=0.000677"

Ashkenazi_Jew:average

Minoan_Lasithi:I0070 42.35
Iran_ChL:I1661 22.05
French_East:French24434 20.60
Minoan_Odigitria:I9131 7.85
Mycenaean:I9041 4.00
Levant_N:I1704 2.40
Iran_ChL:I1665 0.65

Overall Bronze Age Levant - ~25%.
Ancient Aegeans - ~54%
Eastern French (Rhineland French) - 20.6%


[1] "distance%=1.9486"


(all from Erikl86 from that long thread)

[1] "distance%=1.4208"

Ashkenazi_Jew

Levant_BA_North,45.8
Germany_Medieval,27
Mycenaean,19.4
Slavic_Bohemia,3.6
Mozabite,2.8
Mongolian,1.4

With Tuscan:

[1] "distance%=1.3668"

Ashkenazi_Jew

Levant_BA_North,41.6
Italian_Tuscan,38.2
Germany_Medieval,11.8
Mozabite,3.8
Slavic_Bohemia,3
Mongolian,1.6

(from that very same long thread)

I don't really know what to make of all that. Romaniote Jews do not appear to have significantly more MENA shifted than Sephardic Jews in Erikl86 model. Moreover, his model can make Levant_N component in Ashkenazi Jews pretty much disappear (Levant_N:I1704 2.40) and still be a good fit. And, of course, none of those models explain the high steppe in EAJs.



It's probably a lot compared to the size of European Jewish communities at that time.



I was simply surprised with how much steppe EAJ's have. 1st century CE Levantines would've had steppe in the VERY low single digits, EAJ's have 26-27%. That's pretty massive, considering that the highest that steppe gets in Europeans is 50% in Norwegians, which makes EAJ's look like a 50-50 Levantine-Norwegian mixture, with no room for Greeks or Italians. This is not surprising to you?


But then you would need to explain the genetic differences between WAJ's and EAJ's. EAJ's converting and marrying Slavic women so late makes even less sense, I think.

None of this is in good faith. You purposely cutoff my reply about the numbers and then brought up European Jewish numbers, meanwhile they were fleeing to Islamic lands. Leo posted a model. You utterly ignored it and went back to the beginning of this thread.

StillWater
09-14-2021, 06:36 AM
I was simply surprised with how much steppe EAJ's have. 1st century CE Levantines would've had steppe in the VERY low single digits, EAJ's have 26-27%. That's pretty massive, considering that the highest that steppe gets in Europeans is 50% in Norwegians, which makes EAJ's look like a 50-50 Levantine-Norwegian mixture, with no room for Greeks or Italians. This is not surprising to you?


You're asking the wrong question. You need to ask why EAJ are successfully modeled as 7/8 WAJ, yet score higher Steppe than you'd expect from those who are 7/8 WAJ. This isn't a historical question. It's a G25 question. First, actually check that the %s do not at all align when you model EAJ's Steppe using EAJ's recent components vs modelling it directly. Then, if the discrepancy remains, see what non-linearities could've resulted from the monte carlo algorithm vahaduo uses and the G25 PCA. Why should your default be your Steppe model?

Claudio
09-14-2021, 11:29 AM
You're asking the wrong question. You need to ask why EAJ are successfully modeled as 7/8 WAJ, yet score higher Steppe than you'd expect from those who are 7/8 WAJ. This isn't a historical question. It's a G25 question. First, actually check that the %s do not at all align when you model EAJ's Steppe using EAJ's recent components vs modelling it directly. Then, if the discrepancy remains, see what non-linearities could've resulted from the monte carlo algorithm vahaduo uses and the G25 PCA. Why should your default be your Steppe model?


Regarding Slavic admixture in EEAJ’s I thought it was mentioned before that during the 1500’s there was a small window in Eastern Europe where these marriages occurred? Was called something like the “Reparation period“ or something?
Member Erik86 highlighted it originally on a Jewish thread long ago.

Claudio
09-14-2021, 11:38 AM
Uff.. too many models. Here are some more:

[1] "distance%=2.5682"

Romaniote_Jew

Levant_BA_North,39.2
Iberia_Northeast_Greek_15_8_Average,33.4
Mycenaean,20.2
Mozabite,7.2

For Sephardic Jews, I've also added Iberia_Northeast and the North Italian-like Collegno samples. This is what I got:

[1] "distance%=1.9649"


Sephardic_Jew


Levant_BA_North,38.4
Iberia_Northeast_Greek_15_8_Average,36
Italy_Medieval_Collegno,11.8
Mozabite,7.6
Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE,6.2

^^ Mycenaean simply disappears into "Iberia_Northeast_Greek_15_8_Average".

[1] "distance%=1.9486"

Ashkenazi_Jew

Iberia_Northeast_Greek_15_8_Average,37.2
Levant_BA_North,31.8
Polish,9.2
Italy_Medieval_Collegno,9
Mozabite,6.8
Lithuanian,6
[1] "distance%=0.0677 / distance=0.000677"

Ashkenazi_Jew:average

Minoan_Lasithi:I0070 42.35
Iran_ChL:I1661 22.05
French_East:French24434 20.60
Minoan_Odigitria:I9131 7.85
Mycenaean:I9041 4.00
Levant_N:I1704 2.40
Iran_ChL:I1665 0.65

Overall Bronze Age Levant - ~25%.
Ancient Aegeans - ~54%
Eastern French (Rhineland French) - 20.6%


[1] "distance%=1.9486"


(all from Erikl86 from that long thread)

[1] "distance%=1.4208"

Ashkenazi_Jew

Levant_BA_North,45.8
Germany_Medieval,27
Mycenaean,19.4
Slavic_Bohemia,3.6
Mozabite,2.8
Mongolian,1.4

With Tuscan:

[1] "distance%=1.3668"

Ashkenazi_Jew

Levant_BA_North,41.6
Italian_Tuscan,38.2
Germany_Medieval,11.8
Mozabite,3.8
Slavic_Bohemia,3
Mongolian,1.6

(from that very same long thread)

I don't really know what to make of all that. Romaniote Jews do not appear to have significantly more MENA shifted than Sephardic Jews in Erikl86 model. Moreover, his model can make Levant_N component in Ashkenazi Jews pretty much disappear (Levant_N:I1704 2.40) and still be a good fit. And, of course, none of those models explain the high steppe in EAJs.



It's probably a lot compared to the size of European Jewish communities at that time.



I was simply surprised with how much steppe EAJ's have. 1st century CE Levantines would've had steppe in the VERY low single digits, EAJ's have 26-27%. That's pretty massive, considering that the highest that steppe gets in Europeans is 50% in Norwegians, which makes EAJ's look like a 50-50 Levantine-Norwegian mixture, with no room for Greeks or Italians. This is not surprising to you?


But then you would need to explain the genetic differences between WAJ's and EAJ's. EAJ's converting and marrying Slavic women so late makes even less sense, I think.

I agree the Steppe issue still needs to be addressed regarding how it might eventually affect Levantine-to-Southern Euro-to- North & East Euro Admixture ratios.. But as I mentioned in the post above, I thought a small window Slavic admixture event was recorded In the 1500’s?

leorcooper19
09-14-2021, 01:02 PM
Autosomally, that wouldn't make much of a difference. Doubt there were pure Yamnaya women in Europe back then, or women with significantly more than 50% steppe ancestry. EAJ uniparentals simply show that EAJ's are descended largely from medieval rabbinical paternal lineages and central European women. Given that the biggest factor in the genetic drift was this rabbinical dominance, I would expect that rabbis' wives mtDNA lineages had a better chance of survival.

What if they inherited less than average? We can speculate all we want. The only facts we have are in front of us.

1. Please take a look at the much more proximate model I shared at the end of my last post. The French Jews are Ashkenazim from Alsace who mainly descend from medieval German Jews before EAJ backmigration occurred in any large numbers. They score steppe from 19.6-22.0%. The German Jews in our set score steppe from 19.2-25.6% (avg 22.4%). The most parsimonious explanation for the increase in the steppe component for EAJs compared to other WJs therefore must include a portion of it (25-50%) coming in in Central Europe itself. That makes the rest (50-75%) that came in in Eastern Europe less extreme.

2. Re bolded section: there is actually little genetic evidence that Rabbinical status correlates with increased reproductive success. Y-DNA subclades that have been associated with certain Rabbinical families do not often form a large (population-wise) subclade in their lineage, and are much more often nested in whatever the biggest subclades are of any lineage. Plus, we can compare two lineages like J-L556 and E-Y14891, which are extremely similar other than the fact that the former has several Rabbinical families throughout their phylogeny while the latter has none. In terms of their age, size, and spread throughout the Ashkenazi world they're near-perfect reflections of each other, yet have a vast difference in their Rabbinical associations. Either way, the biggest factor in the genetic drift of AJs and especially EAJs is definitely not rabbinical dominance.

3. Indeed, it was only speculation, but I meant it mainly as a reminder that with modeling AJs in particular, you should not be shocked if you get some weird results.

Claudio
09-14-2021, 03:08 PM
Regarding Slavic admixture in EEAJ’s I thought it was mentioned before that during the 1500’s there was a small window in Eastern Europe where these marriages occurred? Was called something like the “Reparation period“ or something?
Member Erik86 highlighted it originally on a Jewish thread long ago.

My bad. “Reformation Period”

Woozler
09-14-2021, 04:28 PM
You're asking the wrong question. You need to ask why EAJ are successfully modeled as 7/8 WAJ, yet score higher Steppe than you'd expect from those who are 7/8 WAJ. This isn't a historical question. It's a G25 question. First, actually check that the %s do not at all align when you model EAJ's Steppe using EAJ's recent components vs modelling it directly. Then, if the discrepancy remains, see what non-linearities could've resulted from the monte carlo algorithm vahaduo uses and the G25 PCA. Why should your default be your Steppe model?

And you are purposefully obfuscating for reasons that have nothing to do with science. You know perfectly well that EAJ's can be modeled as 100% South Italians, with no need for Levantine admixture, and the model would be a fairly good fit.

That's my only point. EAJ's simply have way too much steppe, as much as S Europeans, whatever model you use. Any significant Levantine admixture you claim needs to be balanced by some high-steppe input. You claim 50% Levantine, you're looking at something like a 50-50 Norwegian-Levantine mixture, which is bizarre. You claim 35% Levantine, you need to balance it out with a 35% N European admixture, which also will not work because EAJs are more Mediterranean than that - according to pretty much all autosomal calculators.

Therefore, the realistic absolute maximum Levantine ancestry in EAJs seems to be around 25%. It can easily go lower - you know perfectly well that a model of EAJs as 20% Levantine, 20% C European, 60% S Italian-like (Greek, whatever) is feasible and would work perfectly well. But it simply cannot go higher than 25% Levantine. You will not be able to explain so much steppe in EAJs and still keep EAJs overwhelmingly Mediterranean autosomally. But you probably won't be able to claim anything significantly below 20% Levantine for EAJs for otherwise we would not be able to explain excess Levant PPNB in EAJs compared to S Italians.

That 20-25% realistic Levantine ancestry in EAJ's would likely have to include Babylonian ancestry.

leorcooper19
09-14-2021, 05:39 PM
And you are purposefully obfuscating for reasons that have nothing to do with science. You know perfectly well that EAJ's can be modeled as 100% South Italians, with no need for Levantine admixture, and the model would be a fairly good fit.

That's my only point. EAJ's simply have way too much steppe, as much as S Europeans, whatever model you use. Any significant Levantine admixture you claim needs to be balanced by some high-steppe input. You claim 50% Levantine, you're looking at something like a 50-50 Norwegian-Levantine mixture, which is bizarre. You claim 35% Levantine, you need to balance it out with a 35% N European admixture, which also will not work because EAJs are more Mediterranean than that - according to pretty much all autosomal calculators.

Therefore, the realistic absolute maximum Levantine ancestry in EAJs seems to be around 25%. It can easily go lower - you know perfectly well that a model of EAJs as 20% Levantine, 20% C European, 60% S Italian-like (Greek, whatever) is feasible and would work perfectly well. But it simply cannot go higher than 25% Levantine. You will not be able to explain so much steppe in EAJs and still keep EAJs overwhelmingly Mediterranean autosomally. But you probably won't be able to claim anything significantly below 20% Levantine for EAJs for otherwise we would not be able to explain excess Levant PPNB in EAJs compared to S Italians.

That 20-25% realistic Levantine ancestry in EAJ's would likely have to include Babylonian ancestry.

Woozler, have you honestly looked at models other than those using Neolithic components or the ones that Erik shared three years ago at the start of the megathread? If this is such an issue, explain why this model gets amazing fits:
Target Distance French_Jew Han_Fujian KAZ_Nomad_IA RUS_Alan_MA Slavic
Ashkenazi_Germany 0.00726326 98.2 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.8
Ashkenazi_Poland 0.00937626 90.6 0.6 0.6 0.8 7.4
Ashkenazi_Ukraine 0.00973680 88.2 1.0 0.2 0.8 9.8
Ashkenazi_Lithuania 0.00737511 87.0 1.2 0.0 4.2 7.6
Ashkenazi_Belarussia 0.00860369 85.8 1.0 0.0 4.2 9.0
Ashkenazi_Russia 0.00841714 85.6 1.2 0.8 3.0 9.4
Average 0.00846204 89.2 0.8 0.3 2.2 7.5

StillWater
09-14-2021, 05:46 PM
And you are purposefully obfuscating for reasons that have nothing to do with science. You know perfectly well that EAJ's can be modeled as 100% South Italians, with no need for Levantine admixture, and the model would be a fairly good fit.

That's my only point. EAJ's simply have way too much steppe, as much as S Europeans, whatever model you use. Any significant Levantine admixture you claim needs to be balanced by some high-steppe input. You claim 50% Levantine, you're looking at something like a 50-50 Norwegian-Levantine mixture, which is bizarre. You claim 35% Levantine, you need to balance it out with a 35% N European admixture, which also will not work because EAJs are more Mediterranean than that - according to pretty much all autosomal calculators.

Therefore, the realistic absolute maximum Levantine ancestry in EAJs seems to be around 25%. It can easily go lower - you know perfectly well that a model of EAJs as 20% Levantine, 20% C European, 60% S Italian-like (Greek, whatever) is feasible and would work perfectly well. But it simply cannot go higher than 25% Levantine. You will not be able to explain so much steppe in EAJs and still keep EAJs overwhelmingly Mediterranean autosomally. But you probably won't be able to claim anything significantly below 20% Levantine for EAJs for otherwise we would not be able to explain excess Levant PPNB in EAJs compared to S Italians.

That 20-25% realistic Levantine ancestry in EAJ's would likely have to include Babylonian ancestry.

You're dodging the question.

Are the post-Neolithic models we have in G25 or EAJs inconsistent with the Steppe amount they score in Neolithic models using the very same tools?

Scenario 1: Yes, they are. This is a G25 and Nmonte question, not a historical one about Ashkenazi admixture. If the answer to this question is that Neolithic models are much more accurate than those with historically appropriate references, then we can we can open up the historical question again.

Scenario 2: No, they're not. We're done.

Agamemnon
09-14-2021, 05:54 PM
Therefore, the realistic absolute maximum Levantine ancestry in EAJs seems to be around 25%.

30% is in fact the bare minimum.

Woozler
09-14-2021, 06:17 PM
Woozler, have you honestly looked at models other than those using Neolithic components or the ones that Erik shared three years ago at the start of the megathread? If this is such an issue, explain why this model gets amazing fits:
Target Distance French_Jew Han_Fujian KAZ_Nomad_IA RUS_Alan_MA Slavic
Ashkenazi_Germany 0.00726326 98.2 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.8
Ashkenazi_Poland 0.00937626 90.6 0.6 0.6 0.8 7.4
Ashkenazi_Ukraine 0.00973680 88.2 1.0 0.2 0.8 9.8
Ashkenazi_Lithuania 0.00737511 87.0 1.2 0.0 4.2 7.6
Ashkenazi_Belarussia 0.00860369 85.8 1.0 0.0 4.2 9.0
Ashkenazi_Russia 0.00841714 85.6 1.2 0.8 3.0 9.4
Average 0.00846204 89.2 0.8 0.3 2.2 7.5

How much steppe does the French Jew reference have in this model? What's his breakdown at the neolithic level? And why Slavic instead of Rhineland?


You're dodging the question.

Are the post-Neolithic models we have in G25 or EAJs inconsistent with the Steppe amount they score in Neolithic models using the very same tools?

Scenario 1: Yes, they are. This is a G25 and Nmonte question, not a historical one about Ashkenazi admixture. If the answer to this question is that Neolithic models are much more accurate than those with historically appropriate references, then we can we can open up the historical question again.

Scenario 2: No, they're not. We're done.

The post Neolithic models can be manipulated in various ways, including showing EAJs as almost 100% European, and still be a good fit.

StillWater
09-14-2021, 07:10 PM
The post Neolithic models can be manipulated in various ways, including showing EAJs as almost 100% European, and still be a good fit.

Pretty coincidental that historically appropriate models are an example of this.

Woozler
09-14-2021, 07:25 PM
Pretty coincidental that historically appropriate models are an example of this.

Ashkenazi Jews deriving 75-80% of their ancestry from European converts seems like a historically appropriate model. Speaking of uniparentals, by the way, do you think your own subclade of J2 has a chance of being Levantine? Your closest non-Jewish patrilineal relatives on YFull are 2 Italians and a Portuguese from Brazil.

In fact, of the 6 J2 lineages listed here (https://sites.google.com/view/ashkenazi-y-dna-and-mtdna/y-dna-haplogroups-of-ashkenazi-jews/haplogroup-j2-y-dna-clusters-for-ashkenazi-jews), only 1 has a fairly good chance of being Levantine, with a Syrian as a closest match. The other 5 have a pretty good chance of NOT being Levantine, looking at their YFull matches.

Even the Ashkenazi Q subclade looks to be European, with the closest matches to the Jewish subclade on YFull being a couple of Italians with a TMRCA of 2500 years.

Seriously, just how Levantine are the AJs?

StillWater
09-14-2021, 07:43 PM
Ashkenazi Jews deriving 75-80% of their ancestry from European converts seems like a historically appropriate model. Speaking of uniparentals, by the way, do you think your own subclade of J2 has a chance of being Levantine? Your closest non-Jewish patrilineal relatives on YFull are 2 Italians and a Portuguese from Brazil.

In fact, of the 6 J2 lineages listed here (https://sites.google.com/view/ashkenazi-y-dna-and-mtdna/y-dna-haplogroups-of-ashkenazi-jews/haplogroup-j2-y-dna-clusters-for-ashkenazi-jews), only 1 has a fairly good chance of being Levantine, with a Syrian as a closest match. The other 5 have a pretty good chance of NOT being Levantine, looking at their YFull matches.

Even the Ashkenazi Q subclade looks to be European, with the closest matches to the Jewish subclade on YFull being a couple of Italians with a TMRCA of 2500 years.

Seriously, just how Levantine are the AJs?

One of those Italians has a history of Jewish customs and the Portuguese has an oral history of Jewish descent. There is an Arab equally as close, but he's not on YFull. Mine could end up being non-Levantine, but you're taking YFull as the full story. You're doing the same for Q-Y2200. There is a Lebanese equally as close as the Italians and a Tunisian Jew who is either a splitter to Q-Y2200 or at the same level as the Italians and the Lebanese.

StillWater
09-14-2021, 08:27 PM
Ashkenazi Jews deriving 75-80% of their ancestry from European converts seems like a historically appropriate model. Speaking of uniparentals, by the way, do you think your own subclade of J2 has a chance of being Levantine? Your closest non-Jewish patrilineal relatives on YFull are 2 Italians and a Portuguese from Brazil.

In fact, of the 6 J2 lineages listed here (https://sites.google.com/view/ashkenazi-y-dna-and-mtdna/y-dna-haplogroups-of-ashkenazi-jews/haplogroup-j2-y-dna-clusters-for-ashkenazi-jews), only 1 has a fairly good chance of being Levantine, with a Syrian as a closest match. The other 5 have a pretty good chance of NOT being Levantine, looking at their YFull matches.

Even the Ashkenazi Q subclade looks to be European, with the closest matches to the Jewish subclade on YFull being a couple of Italians with a TMRCA of 2500 years.

Seriously, just how Levantine are the AJs?

By the way, J2-FGC4992 is already shown to be Judean by YFull. That sample from Dagestan is a Jew. Please tell me why even by YFull, J-L556 has "pretty good chance of NOT being Levantine".

Woozler
09-14-2021, 08:33 PM
One of those Italians has a history of Jewish customs and the Portuguese has an oral history of Jewish descent. There is an Arab equally as close, but he's not on YFull.

I only have YFull to rely on. Anyway, this is a bit pointless given how patchy the Y-DNA data is. No one would be able to prove anything. But a claim that EAJ patrilineal ancestry is "largely Levantine" appears to be almost as weak as the claim that EAJs show significant excess Levantine ancestry autosomally (compared to S Italians). I really didn't expect the J2 lineages among the EAJs to have so many matches in Europe and so few in the Levant. More testing is needed.


Please tell me why even by YFull, J-L556 has "pretty good chance of NOT being Levantine".

J-L556 has TMRCA of only 1100 ybp. One up is an Italian from Ragusa, with a TMRCA with the Jewish branch of 3700 ybp. Is he Jewish? One up on YFull, and we're looking at several hugely divergent branches with TMRCA of 6200 ybp, not terribly useful. But even there's a deeply diverged Italian, with a bunch of Saudis, an Iraqi, an Iranian and a Turk. It's too patchy to be coherent.

StillWater
09-14-2021, 09:02 PM
I only have YFull to rely on. Anyway, this is a bit pointless given how patchy the Y-DNA data is. No one would be able to prove anything. But a claim that EAJ patrilineal ancestry is "largely Levantine" appears to be almost as weak as the claim that EAJs show significant excess Levantine ancestry autosomally (compared to S Italians). I really didn't expect the J2 lineages among the EAJs to have so many matches in Europe and so few in the Levant. More testing is needed.



J-L556 has TMRCA of only 1100 ybp. One up is an Italian from Ragusa, with a TMRCA with the Jewish branch of 3700 ybp. Is he Jewish? One up on YFull, and we're looking at several hugely divergent branches with TMRCA of 6200 ybp, not terribly useful. But even there's a deeply diverged Italian, with a bunch of Saudis, an Iraqi, an Iranian and a Turk. It's too patchy to be coherent.

One the one hand, the Y-DNA data is "too patchy" to make conclusions; one the other hand:


a claim that EAJ patrilineal ancestry is "largely Levantine" appears to be almost as weak as the claim that EAJs show significant excess Levantine ancestry autosomally (compared to S Italians).

In reality, J-L566 should've never made your list. The Italian is too far away. The common ancestor can easily be Canaanite or whatever else. The entire lineage is nested in the Middle East. Given that Europe is much better tested than the Levant, on odds alone, J-L556 is Judean.

Woozler
09-14-2021, 09:40 PM
In reality, J-L566 should've never made your list. The Italian is too far away. The common ancestor can easily be Canaanite or whatever else. The entire lineage is nested in the Middle East. Given that Europe is much better tested than the Levant, on odds alone, J-L556 is Judean.

Or he could've been one of those J2's that have been present in Italy for several thousand years. We don't know. And we certainly cannot claim any J2 subclade as "Judean" given how little we know even in those rare cases when we can be reasonably certain of its Levantine origin (which is not the case with L556): it could always have been a converted Phoenician/Carthaginian. Judaism WAS an actively proselytizing religion for centuries, and we have written records of both men and women converting to Judaism well into the European High Middle Ages, judging from that study I found yesterday.

Agamemnon
09-14-2021, 09:46 PM
I only have YFull to rely on. Anyway, this is a bit pointless given how patchy the Y-DNA data is. No one would be able to prove anything. But a claim that EAJ patrilineal ancestry is "largely Levantine" appears to be almost as weak as the claim that EAJs show significant excess Levantine ancestry autosomally (compared to S Italians). I really didn't expect the J2 lineages among the EAJs to have so many matches in Europe and so few in the Levant. More testing is needed.

Let's just say you're in for a set of major surprises if you think Ashkenazi Y-Chromosomal lineages aren't overwhelmingly Levantine, this isn't even a controversial statement at this stage, expect this to be invariably confirmed in future studies on ancient samples from the Levant. It seems to me you're just digging a deeper hole for yourself by denying what has been known for years now, case in point:


J-L556 has TMRCA of only 1100 ybp. One up is an Italian from Ragusa, with a TMRCA with the Jewish branch of 3700 ybp. Is he Jewish? One up on YFull, and we're looking at several hugely divergent branches with TMRCA of 6200 ybp, not terribly useful. But even there's a deeply diverged Italian, with a bunch of Saudis, an Iraqi, an Iranian and a Turk. It's too patchy to be coherent.

Here you conveniently omit any mention of the archeogenetic evidence, namely J-M92's presence in two Late Bronze Age samples from Megiddo (I2190 & I4519, dated 1500-1300 BCE), taking this into account along with Y20051's phylogeny and especially how L560's MRCA estimates correspond with the Canaanite vowel shift, this leaves only very little room for a non-Levantine origin for this branch of M92.

Woozler
09-14-2021, 10:23 PM
Let's just say you're in for a set of major surprises if you think Ashkenazi Y-Chromosomal lineages aren't overwhelmingly Levantine, this isn't even a controversial statement at this stage, expect this to be invariably confirmed in future studies on ancient samples from the Levant. It seems to me you're just digging a deeper hole for yourself by denying what has been known for years now

At this point, I'm relying exclusively on YFull. And I'm seeing lots of Europeans (with some Turks and Armenians and even an occasional Chinese) on the J2 clades to which the AJ subclades belong. Remarkably few Levantines, though it could be due to undertesting.



Here you conveniently omit any mention of the archeogenetic evidence, namely J-M92's presence in two Late Bronze Age samples from Megiddo (I2190 & I4519, dated 1500-1300 BCE), taking this into account along with Y20051's phylogeny and especially how L560's MRCA estimates correspond with the Canaanite vowel shift, this leaves only very little room for a non-Levantine origin for this branch of M92.

J-M92? Not something closer in time to L560? M92's TMRCA is 8200 ybp. I think that's around 2000-3000 years before there was any noticeable presence of any J2's in the Levant, to say nothing of any Canaanite vowel shifts. I seriously do not know what to make of your argument. Just because a certain subclade (formed 6200 ybp, TMRCA 3700 ybp, only Europeans so far: 1 Italian and an AJ subclade) is close in time to a vowel shift somewhere where it was not attested (yet) at such a deep level, you claim that as proof that this entire subclade is Levantine? J-SK1342, a subclade of M92 has the same MRCA of 3700 ybp, so is J-BY87008 and some others. Are all of them Levantine because they're close in time to the Canaanite vowel shift? Or perhaps language changes cannot really be tied to non-dominant subclades in any population?

Unk Kadath
09-14-2021, 10:34 PM
The ultimate origin of R-V88 isn't relevant to this. The author clearly makes a sloppy error. He sees Iberia mentioned in both cases and so he ties it in. He wasn't suggesting that the clade originated in Iberia, but that it came there. The same goes for yourself - you say it came from a Moor. Yet, you both somehow think that quote supports you. Just as you made this error, so did the author. As Leorcooper19 said, the author shouldn't be relied upon for this topic.

It appears to me that of the E-M81 ancestry you attribute as the only confirmation of Berber / Moorish introgression, I find 21 examples in Jewish population samples collated here - https://jewishdna.net/E1b-Maghreb.html

Whereas for the R-V88 sampling in the same attributed Jewish population sample pool, I find 22 examples - https://jewishdna.net/AB-069.html

The V88 appears to consist of 0.99% of the sample pool, which is slightly below the lowest population estimate -

"Small percentages (1 to 4%) of R1b-V88 were also found in the Levant, among the Lebanese, the Druze, and the Jews, and in almost every country in Africa north of the equator."

I don't know if this is the source data for the range estimate above, but if so, it looks like the other irrelevant populations could have been added in to increase the total as a composite.

Lastly, although R-DF27 is noted as non-native to the Sephardic population and is an indigenous Iberian Y-hg -
it has what appears to be a random sampling of 44 individuals - https://jewishdna.net/R1b-DF27.html

The author notes - "On the DF27-project site we find 1500 persons, of which about 1 percent is from the reported Ashkenazi groups."
"Only a small percentage of the present Jewish population has a male line ancestor that changed to the Jewish religion in Iberia. Since more than 50% of the Iberian population is R1b-DF27, we can expect that about 8-10 of the presently known branches changed their religion to the Jewish religion and have male line descendants."

I think that a common tendency for almost all populations is to welcome and accept news that a maternal lineage was 'adopted in', as a net gain, but to view as unwelcome the introgression of a paternal lineage, as noted above where it is presumed that the male lineage is a defacto convert, when that is not necessarily the case.

StillWater
09-14-2021, 10:47 PM
Or he could've been one of those J2's that have been present in Italy for several thousand years. We don't know. And we certainly cannot claim any J2 subclade as "Judean" given how little we know even in those rare cases when we can be reasonably certain of its Levantine origin (which is not the case with L556): it could always have been a converted Phoenician/Carthaginian. Judaism WAS an actively proselytizing religion for centuries, and we have written records of both men and women converting to Judaism well into the European High Middle Ages, judging from that study I found yesterday.

You're switching the rules again. I didn't say it was certain. You began to talk about odds and the odds are it's Judean.

Woozler
09-14-2021, 11:16 PM
You're switching the rules again. I didn't say it was certain. You began to talk about odds and the odds are it's Judean.

And what are you basing those odds on? It's a 3700 year old lineage that includes only Europeans. It's a subclade of a 6200 year old lineage that includes another deeply divergent Italian, two Turks, an Armenian, an Iraqi, an Iranian and a bunch of Saudis, with all the Saudis belonging to a subclade with TMRCA of 800 ybp, downstream from a more basal Iraqi. I'm not seeing a strong connection to the Levant. I'm not saying it's not possible, but I'm baffled by the idea of the high odds of this being Judean.

Agamemnon
09-14-2021, 11:22 PM
At this point, I'm relying exclusively on YFull. And I'm seeing lots of Europeans (with some Turks and Armenians and even an occasional Chinese) on the J2 clades to which the AJ subclades belong. Remarkably few Levantines, though it could be due to undertesting.

There's no shortage of Jewish J2 clades for which a Levantine origin is quite obvious (Z42942, PF4888, FGC62187, Y36257, to name but a few).


J-M92? Not something closer in time to L560? M92's TMRCA is 8200 ybp. I think that's around 2000-3000 years before there was any noticeable presence of any J2's in the Levant, to say nothing of any Canaanite vowel shifts. I seriously do not know what to make of your argument. Just because a certain subclade (formed 6200 ybp, TMRCA 3700 ybp, only Europeans so far: 1 Italian and an AJ subclade) is close in time to a vowel shift somewhere where it was not attested (yet) at such a deep level, you claim that as proof that this entire subclade is Levantine? J-SK1342, a subclade of M92 has the same MRCA of 3700 ybp, so is J-BY87008 and some others. Are all of them Levantine because they're close in time to the Canaanite vowel shift? Or perhaps language changes cannot really be tied to non-dominant subclades in any population?

While the resolution on those samples did not go downstream below M92, I would argue that the presence of several Jewish branches under M92 as well as the overall phylogeny of Y20051 (which is solidly SW Asian in terms of branching and distribution), makes a Levantine origin a foregone conclusion for most of the Jewish branches and L560 in particular. Another parallel one could make is how Y20051's MRCA estimates go back to the period of Common Semitic speech (and in this sense it is similar to J-Z1853). It really is only a matter of time before L560 does make an appearance in a MLBA Canaanite context.

Alluding to that Ragusan sample using a vague "European" label won't cut it, you need to be more precise: What's the alternative here, exactly? Which "European" BA horizon is bound to harbour L560? Or in simpler terms, why do you systematically insist on the least parsimonious option?

Woozler
09-15-2021, 12:33 AM
There's no shortage of Jewish J2 clades for which a Levantine origin is quite obvious (Z42942, PF4888, FGC62187, Y36257, to name but a few).

Z42942 - Middle Eastern origin likely, Levantine origin by no means "obvious". With only Qataris, Iraqis and Saudis (with thousands of years between the branches) the Jewish branch may as well be of a later Babylonian origin.

PF4888 - um.. it's a 9000 year old clade. There are at least two unrelated Jewish subclades on it.
The AJ subclade J-AM00119 (tmrca 950 ybp) is downstream from a basal Portuguese (tmrca 6800 ybp!), two deeply divergent brother clades (tmrca 7400 ybp!) include a Spaniard and a Swede. Seems like the Jewish subclade belongs to a clade with a deep-rooted Neolithic European presence.

The Jewish subclade J-FGC4975 (tmrca 2200 ybp) comes from J-PF5366 (tmrca 7500 ybp) which also contains an almost basal Hungarian (tmrca 7100), an almost basal Swede (7100), and an Armenian and a Spaniard in a younger clade. Looks like PF5366 might also have a pretty ancient, likely Neolithic presence in Europe: the oldest and the most divergent branches are European.

FGC62187 - I'm not sure who is Jewish there.

Y36257 - yeah, that's the one with the closest being a Syrian. The only 1 out of the 6 Jewish Y-DNA clades on that site I mentioned that is quite likely to be Levantine.


Alluding to that Ragusan sample using a vague "European" label won't cut it, you need to be more precise: What's the alternative here, exactly? Which "European" BA horizon is bound to harbour L560? Or in simpler terms, why do you systematically insist on the least parsimonious option?

Actually, I insist on the most parsimonious option: to stop at the Ragusan. Speculating about the origins of the Ragusan (and the AJ subclade) when there is a several-thousand-year gap between L560 and its brother clades (none of which are in the Levant, btw, you need to go several thousand years deeper than just several thousand years) is not something I would call parsimonious.

Agamemnon
09-15-2021, 01:49 AM
PF4888 - um.. it's a 9000 year old clade. There are at least two unrelated Jewish subclades on it. The AJ subclade J-AM00119 (tmrca 950 ybp) is downstream from a basal Portuguese (tmrca 6800 ybp!), two deeply divergent brother clades (tmrca 7400 ybp!) include a Spaniard and a Swede. Seems like the Jewish subclade belongs to a clade with a deep-rooted Neolithic European presence.

The Jewish subclade J-FGC4975 (tmrca 2200 ybp) comes from J-PF5366 (tmrca 7500 ybp) which also contains an almost basal Hungarian (tmrca 7100), an almost basal Swede (7100), and an Armenian and a Spaniard in a younger clade. Looks like PF5366 might also have a pretty ancient, likely Neolithic presence in Europe: the oldest and the most divergent branches are European.

So the second most common lineage among Jewish priests is going to be of Neolithic European origin, duly noted. I'll be sure to remember that when future studies shed light on PF4888's origins, needless to say this has to be one of the stealthiest Neolithic markers in Europe considering how it has so far failed to show up in any remains from any given Neolithic site in Europe.


Actually, I insist on the most parsimonious option: to stop at the Ragusan. Speculating about the origins of the Ragusan (and the AJ subclade) when there is a several-thousand-year gap between L560 and its brother clades (none of which are in the Levant, btw, you need to go several thousand years deeper than just several thousand years) is not something I would call parsimonious.

Without taking the archeogenetic evidence into account, your approach is mere conjecture, I hope I don't need to explain how basing your contention on a single modern sample while conveniently ignoring the ancient data is a form of special-pleading. The methodology is flawed, to say the least. After all, your assumption is that J2-M410 was a major Neolithic marker in Europe despite the critical mass of ancient DNA evidence that makes this well-nigh obsolete now.

passenger
09-15-2021, 01:53 AM
I have moved a series of pages from another thread on Jewish G25 coordinates (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?22951-G25-Austrian-French-Eastern-Sephardim-and-other-Jewish-Coordinates) to this one since they seem to constitute a major deviation from the original theme of that other thread and - although the direction of the tangent is not entirely clear - would be more at home in this thread.

Woozler
09-15-2021, 05:02 AM
So the second most common lineage among Jewish priests is going to be of Neolithic European origin, duly noted.

Not a strong argument, considering that half the Ashkenazi Levites are Indo-Aryans, so to speak, with sibling branches including Iranians, an Iraqi, an Armenian, an Azerbaijani and a couple of Spaniards. There is a good chance the Levite R1a is from a converted Persian or Babylonian, but it could very well be from somewhere else, including Europe, although it's unlikely to be from the Levant: no close matches anywhere near that region.


I'll be sure to remember that when future studies shed light on PF4888's origins, needless to say this has to be one of the stealthiest Neolithic markers in Europe considering how it has so far failed to show up in any remains from any given Neolithic site in Europe.

I think we have only several Neolithic samples from Italy, with several J2's. Neolithic Europe north of the Mediterranean had very few J2's.


Without taking the archeogenetic evidence into account, your approach is mere conjecture, I hope I don't need to explain how basing your contention on a single modern sample while conveniently ignoring the ancient data is a form of special-pleading.

I hope I don't need to explain that you're doing EXACTLY the same thing you're accusing me of doing. We're both speculating on the origin of AJ subclades based on extremely limited data. We're both "special pleading". But when it comes to AJ's J2 subclades, I seem to have a slightly stronger position, if only based on a few YFull samples and deep European sibling lineages.


The methodology is flawed, to say the least. After all, your assumption is that J2-M410 was a major Neolithic marker in Europe despite the critical mass of ancient DNA evidence that makes this well-nigh obsolete now.

J2-M410 seems to have been a major Neolithic marker in Italy (Antonio, 2019)

jonahst
09-15-2021, 05:45 AM
Not a strong argument, considering that half the Ashkenazi Levites are Indo-Aryans, so to speak, with sibling branches including Iranians, an Iraqi, an Armenian, an Azerbaijani and a couple of Spaniards. There is a good chance the Levite R1a is from a converted Persian or Babylonian, but it could very well be from somewhere else, including Europe, although it's unlikely to be from the Levant: no close matches anywhere near that region.

Iraq borders the Levant (and by some definitions is part of the extended Levant). And in what version of history would a European convert end up with sibling branches in Iran, Iraq, Armenia, and Azerbaijan?

I'm genuinely curious, are you Jewish?

Woozler
09-15-2021, 05:59 AM
Iraq borders the Levant (and by some definitions is part of the extended Levant). And in what version of history would a European convert end up with sibling branches in Iran, Iraq, Armenia, and Azerbaijan?

The sibling branches are 2800 years apart and are fairly widely dispersed. So it could've come from anywhere, but until they find a relative of the Levite R1a in Lebanon/Syria/Palestine in the same subclade (the Levite subclade is only 1200 years old), I will doubt its Levantine origin.


I'm genuinely curious, are you Jewish?

I'm partially (patrilineally) EAJ.

jonahst
09-15-2021, 06:11 AM
The sibling branches are 2800 years apart and are fairly widely dispersed. So it could've come from anywhere, but until they find a relative of the Levite R1a in Lebanon/Syria/Palestine in the same subclade (the Levite subclade is only 1200 years old), I will doubt its Levantine origin.

Right, but the likelihood of it being European is far lower than it being Mesopotamian/Persian, whether or not it's Levantine. And there are certain regions (that do in fact border the Levant) where it's far more likely to have entered the Jewish genepool than "anywhere." And why would we find a modern Levantine non-Jew in a 1200-year-old Jewish subclade? That makes no sense.

jonahst
09-15-2021, 06:19 AM
Admittedly, I've only skimmed this debate, but it seems like your logic is that if there are any nearby subclades present among Europeans, the Ashkenazi subclade is most likely of European origin. This conveniently ignores the very historically-prevalent phenomenon of Jewish apostates, who were far more numerous and widespread than converts to Judaism.

ChrisR
09-15-2021, 05:18 PM
There's no shortage of Jewish J2 clades for which a Levantine origin is quite obvious (Z42942, PF4888, FGC62187, Y36257, to name but a few).
I was interested what the new diversity map tool of Hunter P. based on YFull (https://phylogeographer.com/scripts/diversitymap.php) would output for modern J2a haplogroups a little before Jewish MRCA Haplogroups. While samplesize in total and for certain countries might still be limited and AJ are certainly sampled like few other populations, it seems like a valid approach when considering mainly modern samples. Off course for some clusters widely tested with only Y-STR that geolocations would improve the analysis and Jewish samples with MDKA not in the Pre Roman era locations is skewing results. That said ancient DNA with focus on at an Y remains the only near to MRCA evidence and the Caucasus-Iran-Zagros area for most J2a researchers including me is the hottest Pre-Neolithic expansion source for most of J2a (https://j2-m172.info/links/ancient-j-m304-j-m172-j2-y-dna-genomes/). After it gets complicated and very lineage dependent with most lineages down to 5000 years old spread from South Asia to Europe.

J2a-M67>M92>Y20492 (above L556) https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y20492/
46591

J2a-M67>L210 (above Y15223) https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L210/
46592

J2a-M67>Z7661,CTS6619>Y11200>Y17946 (above FGC62187) https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y17946/
46587

J2a-L25>PF4888 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PF4888/
46586

J2a-Z6046,Z6049>Z43525 (above Y36257) https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z43525/
46590

Coldmountains
09-15-2021, 05:41 PM
Not a strong argument, considering that half the Ashkenazi Levites are Indo-Aryans, so to speak, with sibling branches including Iranians, an Iraqi, an Armenian, an Azerbaijani and a couple of Spaniards. There is a good chance the Levite R1a is from a converted Persian or Babylonian, but it could very well be from somewhere else, including Europe, although it's unlikely to be from the Levant: no close matches anywhere near that region.



I think we have only several Neolithic samples from Italy, with several J2's. Neolithic Europe north of the Mediterranean had very few J2's.



I hope I don't need to explain that you're doing EXACTLY the same thing you're accusing me of doing. We're both speculating on the origin of AJ subclades based on extremely limited data. We're both "special pleading". But when it comes to AJ's J2 subclades, I seem to have a slightly stronger position, if only based on a few YFull samples and deep European sibling lineages.



J2-M410 seems to have been a major Neolithic marker in Italy (Antonio, 2019)

The Jewish R1a-Y2619 clade under Z93 >Z94>Z2125>Z2124>Z2122>F1345>CTS6 has no related and old basal clades in Europe. Z93 generally was always super rare outside of East Europe and we so far do not even have any ancient Z93 from places outside of East Europe except one late Roman era sample with a lot of Near Eastern ancestry himself. There are some non-Jewish CTS6 in Spain and Iberia but this is very likely from Muslim era geneflow considering that they are closest to branches in NW Iran and Azerbaijan and under young branches. Jewish R1a is under a typical Asian R1a-Z93 clade hence parallel and close related clades are found among Kangju, Pamiri, Iranians, Palestinians and Caucasians. Jewish Y2619 formed around 3000 B.C according to Yfull what way or another is too early for European admix. The only question if this line was Indo-Aryan/Mitanni or West Iranic before it was absorbed by Jews.

Tomenable
09-15-2021, 07:35 PM
Is it true & proven that most of Ashkenazi mtDNA is of European origin?:

https://sites.google.com/view/ashkenazi-y-dna-and-mtdna/mtdna-frequencies-in-the-ashkenazi-population

What percentage of AJ matrilineages could be of Middle Eastern origin?

altvred
09-15-2021, 07:46 PM
Not a strong argument, considering that half the Ashkenazi Levites are Indo-Aryans, so to speak, with sibling branches including Iranians, an Iraqi, an Armenian, an Azerbaijani and a couple of Spaniards. There is a good chance the Levite R1a is from a converted Persian or Babylonian, but it could very well be from somewhere else, including Europe, although it's unlikely to be from the Levant: no close matches anywhere near that region.


Uhh, No.

Z93 is virtually absent in Europe following the Bronze Age. The chances that any branch of Z93 found in Ashkenazi Jews originated from European converts are slim to none.

You're also conveniently ignoring what subclades of CTS6 these 'couple of Spaniards' belong to.

https://i.imgur.com/fnPAfHs.png

There's a thing called haplogroup diversity. and in the case of CTS6 that diversity peaks in Iran and to a lesser extend bordering countries.

https://i.imgur.com/wXh4dNs.png


https://phylogeographer.com/scripts/diversitymap.php?newlookup=R-CTS6

leorcooper19
09-15-2021, 11:48 PM
Here's a list of Ashkenazi J2 clades and my thoughts on each one's origins (extremely small lineages excluded).

1. J-Y15223 - 4.48% of Ashkenazi Jews - J-L210 likely expanded both north, south, and west from the Caucasus c. 2500 BCE. Current thinking is that its Iron Age origin (J-Y15222 level) is either Greek or Anatolian, given the significant presence of Southern Italians and Greeks. Could be Levantine (the presence of some Arabs may suggest this) but I doubt it.
2. J-L556 - 4.41% - J-M92 is likely a Mesopotamian Neolithic marker, with J-Y20051's MRCA still being born in or around Mesopotamia (Iraqi from Basra above the Saudis and Assyrian+Azeri-like 'Turk'). The big question is J-L560; with one Ashkenazi clade and one Sicilian connecting to c. 1700 BCE, lots of things are possible. While I believe the ultimate Mesopotamian origin makes routes like those accompanying J1-Z1853 and J2b-M205 with IRN_N-like ancestry into the Levant or a more recent entrance from a Mesopotamian (whether Bronze Age or Iron Age) are the likeliest, I have to admit it's possible that J-L560 was a minor Mycenaean marker. It's very likely that Bronze Age Greeks had some J-M92 clades, and it's entirely possible for a minor Mycenaean clade to have only an Ashkenazi Jewish subclade and a Sicilian as its modern descendants. That said, still leaning Near Eastern here.
3. J-Z43501 - 1.72% of Ashkenazi Jews - Besides having a pretty extreme bottleneck above its LBA parent, this one is pretty clearly Levantine. There is both a Syrian and a Galilean at two different levels.
4. J-FGC21085 - 1.58% - This one is really hard to say, given that J-L70 is a constantly debated clade. Could be anything from Greek to Anatolian to some form of Levantine. As has been said one hundred times on the L70 threads, ancient DNA is needed to determine its origin.
5. J-FGC4975 - 2.13% (across two distinct Ashkenazi lineages) - Given the Mountain Jew separated at 2200 ybp, at least a Roman-era Judaean origin is near confirmed. Technically it could be early Hellenistic period introgression from someone like a Greek, but frankly, the "deep Neolithic presence in Europe" argument is pretty unlikely. The basal Europeans likely are red herrings regarding its origin, as J-L25 is almost certainly an Iranian Neolithic clade. So, similar to J-M92 > L560, I find that the likeliest source of this Y chromosome for Ashkenazim is the Levant.
6. J-Y33795 - 1.10% - This lineage is clearly ultimately Etruscan, with a few of the sequenced ancients we have from them sharing a LBA split date with the Ashkenazi Kohanim. Before that, likely Balkan and, ultimately (I believe) a Corded Ware lineage from the east.
7. J-P244 - 0.79% - Same thoughts as J-FGC21085. It's a confounding space and we really do need ancient DNA to confirm its origin, but seems like a major BA East Med lineage.
8. J-FGC75679 - 0.76% - Similar thoughts to my take on J-Y15223, only here we have BA splits rather than IA ones. I bet the origin is likely Greek or Anatolian, though could technically be Levantine of some kind.
9. J-Z42983 - 0.72% - I believe its upstream level- J-Z42946- is a minor equivalent to J1-Z1853 and J2b-M205. The basal Libyan is Jewish. Pretty solid Levant possibility.
10. J-AM00119 - 0.41% - Pretty confident that this one is Levantine. On FTDNA it has a c. 1500 ybp split with a Colombian (who also matches Sephardim) and a c. 2000 ybp split with an unknown individual. Just like its cousin J-FGC4975, it's ultimately from Neolithic Iran.
11. J-Y99200 - 0.40% - Ultimately a LBA Balkan clade, which I believe migrated to Italy before becoming Jewish. The Israeli sample at 1100 ybp is Paradesi (Sephardi from India).
12. J-Y96522 - 0.33% - For those wondering, the English flag is from a family of historical converts from Judaism. I agree with Principe that J-Y17946's expansion likely mirrored that of J-L210, so I believe either Greek or Anatolian is likely for the ultimate source of this Y-chromosome as well, but leaning towards Anatolian. It's possibly Hurrian > Judaean, or possibly a classical-era introgression in Anatolia; we have no evidence to confirm or reject either hypothesis.
13. J-Y207583 - 0.22% - This one is pretty securely Anatolian by at least the LBA. See three layers of Anatolian splits above the Jews. However, we have no hints on whether the lineage became Jewish in the Levant in the IA or later in the diaspora.

To conclude: 5 likely Near Eastern (9.39%), 4 likely Greek or Anatolian (5.79%), 2 likely BA Balkan > IA Italian (1.50%), and 2 ambiguous (2.37%), out of 19.06% of Ashkenazim in J2. But you shouldn't go to J2 to look for AJs' Levantine ancestry ;)


Is it true & proven that most of Ashkenazi mtDNA is of European origin?:

https://sites.google.com/view/ashkenazi-y-dna-and-mtdna/mtdna-frequencies-in-the-ashkenazi-population

What percentage of AJ matrilineages could be of Middle Eastern origin?

Using Wim Penninx's numbers, Ashkenazim are at minimum 25% Near Eastern from mtDNAs. Though I would be really surprised if it got too much higher than that.

Levantine_Viking
09-16-2021, 12:45 AM
But that's not what your own calculations show.



Here. Polish/Ukrainian/Belarussian AJ's may be close to 25% Levantine, German AJ's closer to 1/3 Levantine even when using the Druze as a reference, although the Druze are not really of (fully) Levantine origins and are noticeably "Greek-shifted" than the Samaritans and the Lebanese.



Terrible fits, as people say, plus we know that AJ's are largely Mediterranean based on various admixture calculators.



This looks very different from a similar chart in the 2010 Zoossmann-Diskin paper, which showed AJs as clustering tightly with Italians and being quite distant from the Levantine groups. Zoossmann-Diskin proposed that AJ's are largely just converted Italians, if I recall correctly. We now know that the AJ history is considerably more complicated than any simple single-source origin story, but that paper is what got me interested in the topic we're now discussing (I was 10 years late, but hey, better late than never).



Again, then: how would you explain so much steppe even in Italian Jews (21%), to say nothing of E European AJ's, and so little Levant_PPNB?



As opposed to the Khazarian hypothesis? Well, obviously. AJ's are largely Mediterranean.

Why do we still model with Sicilians? G25 is way too sensitive to claim 70 percent Sicilia and 30 percent Levantine would be taken seriously. Sicilians themselves derive heavy ancestry from the levant and west Asia, and when modeling with barcin 0724 and natufian, ashkenazim carry more natufian than Sicilians.

Levantine_Viking
09-16-2021, 04:51 AM
Not a strong argument, considering that half the Ashkenazi Levites are Indo-Aryans, so to speak, with sibling branches including Iranians, an Iraqi, an Armenian, an Azerbaijani and a couple of Spaniards. There is a good chance the Levite R1a is from a converted Persian or Babylonian, but it could very well be from somewhere else, including Europe, although it's unlikely to be from the Levant: no close matches anywhere near that region.



I think we have only several Neolithic samples from Italy, with several J2's. Neolithic Europe north of the Mediterranean had very few J2's.



I hope I don't need to explain that you're doing EXACTLY the same thing you're accusing me of doing. We're both speculating on the origin of AJ subclades based on extremely limited data. We're both "special pleading". But when it comes to AJ's J2 subclades, I seem to have a slightly stronger position, if only based on a few YFull samples and deep European sibling lineages.



J2-M410 seems to have been a major Neolithic marker in Italy (Antonio, 2019)

Jm92 was found in Megiddo during the bronze age and is a common Jewish hgroup

Levantine_Viking
09-16-2021, 06:41 AM
Here, I did a Bronze Age calculator to model ashkenazim, all samples are from the MBA period except for North African - which was late neolithic. My mom is completely ashkenazi. Her and her brother paul (and myself) interestingly pull more north african and aegeon-anatolian ancestry than typical ashkenazi, with significant portions of our dna being pulled to west asia and north africa exclusively than the levant. My dad is northwest european, so this is why I pull half of my ancestry from there. I compared to modern levantine populations and East Sicilians.

You will see that most ashkenazi have roughly 35-45 percent of the levantine amount as a Lebanese Christian (syria would be north levant for lebanese) with varying other components such as north africa, anatolian, greek, sardinian, baltic, balkan, and eastern iran. If you include the total amount of "west asian north african" - which includes anatolia, iran, north africa (and looking here, exluding my family and their weird make up), 50-56 percent of WANA ancestry that a Lebanese Christian has.

The "levantine" populations mainly include Canaan, Jordan - and I kept Syria seperate to distinguish it as northern levant.

If you look at the sicilian, they are heavily more anatolian than ashkenazi Jews (again, excluding my family), suggesting that ashkenazi jews do in fact derive a good portion of their ancestry from Modern Levantines, specifically Lebanese Christians - as the Levantine Anatolian BA samples average is around 9 percent and the Ashkeanzi samples are derived average about 8 percent - which again concludes that Ashkenazim may not be exactly 40-60 percent "BA levant" but that true modern Levantine populations such as Lebanese Christians are not 100 percent BA levant either - however, ashkenazim can be safely modeled as half middle east/west asian north african (MENA)

Further- if we disclude Anatolia, and just use Middle East North Africa ONLY - in terms of comparison, ashkenazim are 40-50 percent Middle East North African of the level of a Lebanese Christian. Sicilians only have around 23 percent. this is a MAJOR different - and we cannot just say average ashkenazim are "sicilian converts" that is essentially not true.

The Syrian Reference I used around Akalakh because the sample is located in BA Syria.

I included MBA armenia on here for the caucasus, and ashkenazi prefer BA east Iran - showing a southern drift.

My family again is very weird, showing ashkenazi on modern dna test but yet our g25 admixtures are less levantine, and more anatolian-north african. I think it has a Romanoite shift to us. My mom's father's father father was from Transylvania originally, and then I believe they moved to Lithuania.

Woozler
09-17-2021, 11:02 PM
Right, but the likelihood of it being European is far lower than it being Mesopotamian/Persian, whether or not it's Levantine. And there are certain regions (that do in fact border the Levant) where it's far more likely to have entered the Jewish genepool than "anywhere." And why would we find a modern Levantine non-Jew in a 1200-year-old Jewish subclade? That makes no sense.

The Mesopotamian (Iraqi) match is in the same subclade as an Iranian, with tmrca of only 800 ybp, and both are downstream from another Iranian, with tmrca of 1300 ybp, so the only Iraqi is probably the offspring of a medieval Iranian migrant, when Iraq was part of one of the many Persian empires of that time period. So of the three sibling branches to the Levite one (all with tmrca of 2800), two are deeply rooted in Iran, and the third branch dispersed, with an Armenian, an Azeri, an Iranian, a Portuguese from Brazil and two Spaniards. I just don't see much of a connection to the Levant there. We do see some Europeans in sibling clades, but with tmrca of 2800 years it's not terribly meaningful.


And why would we find a modern Levantine non-Jew in a 1200-year-old Jewish subclade? That makes no sense.

R-Y2619 formed 2800 years ago, so it already existed during the Persian conquest of the Levant in the 6th century BC. If that's when it was brought in, for example, there should be sibling clades in the region that are older than 1200 but younger than 2800 years. But none has been found so far (as far as I know).


Admittedly, I've only skimmed this debate, but it seems like your logic is that if there are any nearby subclades present among Europeans, the Ashkenazi subclade is most likely of European origin. This conveniently ignores the very historically-prevalent phenomenon of Jewish apostates, who were far more numerous and widespread than converts to Judaism.

That's why I ignore any European side branches that are younger than 2000 years. But I would hardly expect there to be any Jewish apostates living in Europe in the early Iron Age, for example. These are what I call "deep-rooted Europeans".

For example, take a look at E-FGC32460 (one of the E subclades reported as Ashkenazi). There are two sibling clades, diverging from each other and the Ashkenazi clade 3100 years ago. One sibling clade contains two Italians, the other contains one Italian and one Portuguese. Three sibling clades, going back to 1100 BCE, every single one of them European. Jewish apostates in 1100 BCE Europe? I doubt it. Which I think makes E-FGC32460 a pretty good candidate for an Italian who converted to Judaism sometime in the Roman Imperial or early Medieval era and started this Ashkenazi branch.

By the way, I decided to look at the six E subclades reported as Ashkenazi (https://sites.google.com/view/ashkenazi-y-dna-and-mtdna/y-dna-haplogroups-of-ashkenazi-jews/haplogroup-e-y-dna-clusters-for-ashkenazi-jews), and they are bizarrely rare.

E-FGC32460 is quite likely to be European as I said, E-Z17697 is exceedingly likely to be Levantine, with a Lebanese and a yemeni sibling clades with tmrca of 3000. The other four? For one, the nearest sibling clades are 6000 years apart, for another it's 10000 years, 7000 years for the third one.

Only E-Y6926 has a relatively recent sibling clade, with a UAE match with tmrca of 3100 ybp, but it's the only match with a country name on it, I'd prefer more than one, and UAE is not really in the Levant.

So, gentlemen, I'm surprised to find out that even the Ashkenazi E subclades (at least according to YFull data) do not have a particularly strong connection to the Levant. Half of the 6 are too rare to make any meaningful inferences, 1 is likely European, 1 is likely Levantine, and 1 has weak a Middle Eastern link.

Woozler
09-17-2021, 11:18 PM
The Jewish R1a-Y2619 clade under Z93 >Z94>Z2125>Z2124>Z2122>F1345>CTS6 has no related and old basal clades in Europe. Z93 generally was always super rare outside of East Europe and we so far do not even have any ancient Z93 from places outside of East Europe except one late Roman era sample with a lot of Near Eastern ancestry himself. There are some non-Jewish CTS6 in Spain and Iberia but this is very likely from Muslim era geneflow considering that they are closest to branches in NW Iran and Azerbaijan and under young branches. Jewish R1a is under a typical Asian R1a-Z93 clade hence parallel and close related clades are found among Kangju, Pamiri, Iranians, Palestinians and Caucasians. Jewish Y2619 formed around 3000 B.C according to Yfull what way or another is too early for European admix. The only question if this line was Indo-Aryan/Mitanni or West Iranic before it was absorbed by Jews.

The Spanish/Portuguese subclades could've been brought to Spain by Persian immigrants some time after the Arab conquest. Anyway, I'm not implying a European origin for the Levite r1a. Just saying it has no known Levantine connection at present.


Why do we still model with Sicilians? G25 is way too sensitive to claim 70 percent Sicilia and 30 percent Levantine would be taken seriously. Sicilians themselves derive heavy ancestry from the levant and west Asia, and when modeling with barcin 0724 and natufian, ashkenazim carry more natufian than Sicilians.

Actually, it's a lot less than 30%. It's curious how easily AJs can be modeled as almost pure S Italians:

46656

German AJs need only 14% extra Levantine ancestry, but otherwise can be modeled almost as pure S Italians. Ukrainian AJs need only an extra 6%. The population of SW Italy (Campania, Lazio, Sicily) do carry significantly more Levant_N ancestry than all other Italians, and so do many Greeks, particularly the islanders. So you can model EAJs as being less than 10% Levantine, more than 90% European (disregarding some minor ancestry from elsewhere) if you insist that Jews are just converted S Italians (and Greeks), Zoossmann-Diskin style.

Or you can realistically model them as more than 30% Levantine, less than 70% European if you use a more Central Italian-like population which has low Levant_PPNB. This is what the entire argument is about: how much of the Levant_PPNB ancestry in AJs is from Levant_PPNB rich S European populations and how much of it is directly from the Levant.

StillWater
09-17-2021, 11:20 PM
The Mesopotamian (Iraqi) match is in the same subclade as an Iranian, with tmrca of only 800 ybp, and both are downstream from another Iranian, with tmrca of 1300 ybp, so the only Iraqi is probably the offspring of a medieval Iranian migrant, when Iraq was part of one of the many Persian empires of that time period. So of the three sibling branches to the Levite one (all with tmrca of 2800), two are deeply rooted in Iran, and the third branch dispersed, with an Armenian, an Azeri, an Iranian, a Portuguese from Brazil and two Spaniards. I just don't see much of a connection to the Levant there. We do see some Europeans in sibling clades, but with tmrca of 2800 years it's not terribly meaningful.



R-Y2619 formed 2800 years ago, so it already existed during the Persian conquest of the Levant in the 6th century BC. If that's when it was brought in, for example, there should be sibling clades in the region that are older than 1200 but younger than 2800 years. But none has been found so far (as far as I know).



That's why I ignore any European side branches that are younger than 2000 years. But I would hardly expect there to be any Jewish apostates living in Europe in the early Iron Age, for example. These are what I call "deep-rooted Europeans".

For example, take a look at E-FGC32460 (one of the E subclades reported as Ashkenazi). There are two sibling clades, diverging from each other and the Ashkenazi clade 3100 years ago. One sibling clade contains two Italians, the other contains one Italian and one Portuguese. Three sibling clades, going back to 1100 BCE, every single one of them European. Jewish apostates in 1100 BCE Europe? I doubt it. Which I think makes E-FGC32460 a pretty good candidate for an Italian who converted to Judaism sometime in the Roman Imperial or early Medieval era and started this Ashkenazi branch.

By the way, I decided to look at the six E subclades reported as Ashkenazi (https://sites.google.com/view/ashkenazi-y-dna-and-mtdna/y-dna-haplogroups-of-ashkenazi-jews/haplogroup-e-y-dna-clusters-for-ashkenazi-jews), and they are bizarrely rare.

E-FGC32460 is quite likely to be European as I said, E-Z17697 is exceedingly likely to be Levantine, with a Lebanese and a yemeni sibling clades with tmrca of 3000. The other four? For one, the nearest sibling clades are 6000 years apart, for another it's 10000 years, 7000 years for the third one.

Only E-Y6926 has a relatively recent sibling clade, with a UAE match with tmrca of 3100 ybp, but it's the only match with a country name on it, I'd prefer more than one, and UAE is not really in the Levant.

So, gentlemen, I'm surprised to find out that even the Ashkenazi E subclades (at least according to YFull data) do not have a particularly strong connection to the Levant. Half of the 6 are too rare to make any meaningful inferences, 1 is likely European, 1 is likely Levantine, and 1 has weak a Middle Eastern link.

Is this clade Neolithic European or Neolithic Chinese: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY7308/ ?

Woozler
09-18-2021, 01:17 AM
Is this clade Neolithic European or Neolithic Chinese: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY7308/ ?

With all of the Chinese subclades having tmrca of 650 ybp and the Czech sibling clade with tmrca of 5700 ybp, there's way too much of a gap to make any meaningful inferences. Anything could have happened in those 5000 years. Although it's not as bad as the major Ashkenazi E subclades with 6-7-9 thousand year gaps between the nearest sibling clades. Why are they so rare? Any ideas?

Woozler
09-18-2021, 01:36 AM
J-FGC4975 - 2.13% (across two distinct Ashkenazi lineages) - Given the Mountain Jew separated at 2200 ybp, at least a Roman-era Judaean origin is near confirmed. Technically it could be early Hellenistic period introgression from someone like a Greek, but frankly, the "deep Neolithic presence in Europe" argument is pretty unlikely. The basal Europeans likely are red herrings regarding its origin, as J-L25 is almost certainly an Iranian Neolithic clade. So, similar to J-M92 > L560, I find that the likeliest source of this Y chromosome for Ashkenazim is the Levant.

1. "The basal Europeans likely are red herrings regarding its origin" is not really an argument. More than enough J2's have been found in Neolithic Europe (see Jack Johnson's J2 message in the Etruscan thread).
2. Are you sure the Mountain Jew is indeed basal? Perhaps he's just undertested. There's something strange about it, considering the rest of the branch has a very typically Ashkenazi TMRCA of 1100 ybp. I think sometimes the "basal" entries on YFull are just undertested, I'm not sure.


1. J-Y15223 - 4.48% of Ashkenazi Jews... urrent thinking is that its Iron Age origin (J-Y15222 level) is either Greek or Anatolian, given the significant presence of Southern Italians and Greeks.
2. J-L556 - 4.41%.. It's very likely that Bronze Age Greeks had some J-M92 clades, and it's entirely possible for a minor Mycenaean clade to have only an Ashkenazi Jewish subclade and a Sicilian as its modern descendants. That said, still leaning Near Eastern here.

So you do agree that even the two major Ashkenazi J2 lineages, to say nothing of the many lesser ones, are either very likely to be non-Levantine, or "entirely possible" to be non-Levantine. So we don't have much of a disagreement here.

Until two or three days ago, I didn't even doubt the received wisdom of this forum that AJ patrilineals are solidly Levantine, possibly because the Hg distribution, with all those E's, J1's, and J2's looked so.. Lebanese, possibly because AJs patrilineally, as I found out earlier, are dominated by a limited number of Medieval rabbinical lineages. That is, until I decided to take a look at the YFull data. To be honest, I was surprised at how weak the evidence for the "overwhelming" Levantine origin of the major AJ subclades turned out to be.

The more I look into it, the more questions I have. Back when I decided to find out what genetics could tell us about the origins of the Ashkenazim and what it could tell us about the Big Question (to what extent the AJ's are descended from Ancient Israelites as opposed to later converts), earlier this year, I decided to be as open-minded about it as possible. And it's just.. not looking good. Judaism WAS an actively proselytizing religion for centuries, so I'm not sure what I expected. I still plan to find out what my Y-DNA subclade is, but now I just don't know what it could tell me about my patrilineal origin.

Levantine_Viking
09-18-2021, 02:05 AM
.

"Or you can realistically model them as more than 30% Levantine, less than 70% European if you use a more Central Italian-like population which has low Levant_PPNB. This is what the entire argument is about: how much of the Levant_PPNB ancestry in AJs is from Levant_PPNB rich S European populations and how much of it is directly from the Levant.[/QUOTE]

That is distinctly false. And I proved it via my bronze age calculator which are as homogenous as post neolithic levantine populations can be. Go back to my last comments and see for yourself.

Ashkenazim are around 35-45 percent the amount of levantine that an average Lebanese Christian has, and around 40-50 percent the amount of Middle East North African (levantine + north Africa) of that of a Leb Christian and around 50-56 percent the amount of WANA of that of a Lebanese christian, with Anatolian BA included as well and beast Iran for WANA category.

I used Armenian MBA as a reference for Caucasus as it's very north Caucasus shifted, and there are rarely any drifts for ashkenazim in this regard, but there are for it's southern East Iran Median (makrani like proxy) counterpart.

Ashkenazim are pretty much half Lebanese Christians (a modern levantine population) and half European, with Greek, Mediterranean, and Baltic/Balkan components.

It's best not to model ashkenazi based.on neolithic and CHL populations but to model in the bronze age or better yet compare eurogenes K13 components with modern levantine populations.

The conversions were not as widespread as once thought. A mass.conversion of Hellenistic Jews under the Roman empire was not as common, heir practices were differentt than contemporary Judeans.

Not to.mention, in my model that I shared will show Sicilians to be MUCH more BA Anatolian than ashkenazim who are.mcuh more shifted to.megiddo. that isn't coincidence

leorcooper19
09-18-2021, 03:27 AM
1. "The basal Europeans likely are red herrings regarding its origin" is not really an argument. More than enough J2's have been found in Neolithic Europe (see Jack Johnson's J2 message in the Etruscan thread).
2. Are you sure the Mountain Jew is indeed basal? Perhaps he's just undertested. There's something strange about it, considering the rest of the branch has a very typically Ashkenazi TMRCA of 1100 ybp. I think sometimes the "basal" entries on YFull are just undertested, I'm not sure.

1. Fair, but saying "there are basal Europeans separated to the Neolithic, therefore the clade is of European Neolithic origin" is not a good one. While there have been a fair number of J2s found in pre-IA Europe, only a few have been found in the Neolithic (out of probably hundreds of Neolithic samples now), and none of the clades found in pre-IA Europe are within a J2 clade of Iranian Neolithic origin, like J-L25 almost certainly is with its diversity among ancient Iranics. This is an example of digging deeper past the top-level haplogroup and knowing what's what on a subclade basis, beyond what's obvious from YFull.
2. Yes, the Mountain Jew is indeed basal. His results in fact created that level above the Ashkenazim and Sephardim! You'll be happy to know that levels like this are not created because a kit is "undertested" (what you really mean here is a kit having no calls for downstream SNPs). YFull is pretty damn strict with the kits individuals can upload for presence on their tree. They only make exceptions for lower-coverage data when they're from scientific studies. When a kit has a no call for a downstream SNP, and that impacts their placement on the YTree, you'll see an "i" next to their kit. Hover over it to see the possible terminals the sample has.


So you do agree that even the two major Ashkenazi J2 lineages, to say nothing of the many lesser ones, are either very likely to be non-Levantine, or "entirely possible" to be non-Levantine. So we don't have much of a disagreement here.

Until two or three days ago, I didn't even doubt the received wisdom of this forum that AJ patrilineals are solidly Levantine, possibly because the Hg distribution, with all those E's, J1's, and J2's looked so.. Lebanese, possibly because AJs patrilineally, as I found out earlier, are dominated by a limited number of Medieval rabbinical lineages. That is, until I decided to take a look at the YFull data. To be honest, I was surprised at how weak the evidence for the "overwhelming" Levantine origin of the major AJ subclades turned out to be.

The more I look into it, the more questions I have. Back when I decided to find out what genetics could tell us about the origins of the Ashkenazim and what it could tell us about the Big Question (to what extent the AJ's are descended from Ancient Israelites as opposed to later converts), earlier this year, I decided to be as open-minded about it as possible. And it's just.. not looking good. Judaism WAS an actively proselytizing religion for centuries, so I'm not sure what I expected. I still plan to find out what my Y-DNA subclade is, but now I just don't know what it could tell me about my patrilineal origin.

Just because you discovered things are more complex than you were lead to believe doesn't mean the complete opposite narrative is true. The early studies on Jewish uniparentals were definitely biased IMO and did stretch things in favor of the Levant when possible. But we're turning a corner when it comes to Y-DNA especially, as we're hitting a critical mass of high-coverage samples from both moderns and ancients. We can finally say with some real degree of certainty what the origin of a given Y-chromosome is.

Since it's obvious you're a beginner with Y-DNA, I encourage you to ask more questions about how it works and what's known from ancient and modern DNA that's not on YFull. It's a very common issue for someone to start using Y-DNA for the first time using only YFull, only to later be schooled by learning that YFull is actually only a (relatively small) collection of public and semi-private, high-coverage Y-chromosomes. Most ancient Ys are not on YFull and most modern NGS/WGS tests aren't either. Testing and upload patterns across ethnicities and geographies really control what one sees from YFull. For example, samples the Levant are extremely underrepresented on YFull compared to Europe. Once you gain a deeper understanding of this stuff, you'll be better able to make strong arguments of your own for the origin of a given line. My dms are always open for help.

Levantine_Viking
09-18-2021, 04:00 AM
1. Fair, but saying "there are basal Europeans separated to the Neolithic, therefore the clade is of European Neolithic origin" is not a good one. While there have been a fair number of J2s found in pre-IA Europe, only a few have been found in the Neolithic (out of probably hundreds of Neolithic samples now), and none of the clades found in pre-IA Europe are within a J2 clade of Iranian Neolithic origin, like J-L25 almost certainly is with its diversity among ancient Iranics. This is an example of digging deeper past the top-level haplogroup and knowing what's what on a subclade basis, beyond what's obvious from YFull.
2. Yes, the Mountain Jew is indeed basal. His results in fact created that level above the Ashkenazim and Sephardim! You'll be happy to know that levels like this are not created because a kit is "undertested" (what you really mean here is a kit having no calls for downstream SNPs). YFull is pretty damn strict with the kits individuals can upload for presence on their tree. They only make exceptions for lower-coverage data when they're from scientific studies. When a kit has a no call for a downstream SNP, and that impacts their placement on the YTree, you'll see an "i" next to their kit. Hover over it to see the possible terminals the sample has.



Just because you discovered things are more complex than you were lead to believe doesn't mean the complete opposite narrative is true. The early studies on Jewish uniparentals were definitely biased IMO and did stretch things in favor of the Levant when possible. But we're turning a corner when it comes to Y-DNA especially, as we're hitting a critical mass of high-coverage samples from both moderns and ancients. We can finally say with some real degree of certainty what the origin of a given Y-chromosome is.

Since it's obvious you're a beginner with Y-DNA, I encourage you to ask more questions about how it works and what's known from ancient and modern DNA that's not on YFull. It's a very common issue for someone to start using Y-DNA for the first time using only YFull, only to later be schooled by learning that YFull is actually only a (relatively small) collection of public and semi-private, high-coverage Y-chromosomes. Most ancient Ys are not on YFull and most modern NGS/WGS tests aren't either. Testing and upload patterns across ethnicities and geographies really control what one sees from YFull. For example, samples the Levant are extremely underrepresented on YFull compared to Europe. Once you gain a deeper understanding of this stuff, you'll be better able to make strong arguments of your own for the origin of a given line. My dms are always open for help.

Not to mention, yDNA isn't everything. It's definitely possible that a convert parent, (I think in Spain?) Bred s lineage but the autosomal over time doesn't change that much for Jews to be carrying around 50-60 percent WANA ancestry. It's something that people who are heavily ydna oriented on tend to forget (not you, but others)

jonahst
09-20-2021, 12:16 AM
The Mesopotamian (Iraqi) match is in the same subclade as an Iranian, with tmrca of only 800 ybp, and both are downstream from another Iranian, with tmrca of 1300 ybp, so the only Iraqi is probably the offspring of a medieval Iranian migrant, when Iraq was part of one of the many Persian empires of that time period. So of the three sibling branches to the Levite one (all with tmrca of 2800), two are deeply rooted in Iran, and the third branch dispersed, with an Armenian, an Azeri, an Iranian, a Portuguese from Brazil and two Spaniards. I just don't see much of a connection to the Levant there. We do see some Europeans in sibling clades, but with tmrca of 2800 years it's not terribly meaningful.

R-Y2619 formed 2800 years ago, so it already existed during the Persian conquest of the Levant in the 6th century BC. If that's when it was brought in, for example, there should be sibling clades in the region that are older than 1200 but younger than 2800 years. But none has been found so far (as far as I know).


All of those sibling branches are from the same general region in the Southern Caucasus and northwestern Iran, which border Upper Mesopotamia. These aren't randomly distributed throughout Iran. Just because we haven't yet found downstream sibling branches in the Levant doesn't mean they aren't there (you're talking about literally a handful of samples), but it is safe to assume that Ashkenazi R1a-Y2619 did not come from a European convert. We're also talking about a region that provided considerable genetic inflow to the Levant beginning in the Chalcolithic, so it's not a stretch to imagine that there could be undiscovered downstream among the millions of untested Levantines.

You don't need pre-exilic Jewish apostates in Southern Europe to explain sibling branches among Southern Europeans. Virtually all of Mediterranean Europe was colonized and populated by Near Easterners (and specifically Levantines) throughout the Roman period.



Only E-Y6926 has a relatively recent sibling clade, with a UAE match with tmrca of 3100 ybp, but it's the only match with a country name on it, I'd prefer more than one, and UAE is not really in the Levant.

So, gentlemen, I'm surprised to find out that even the Ashkenazi E subclades (at least according to YFull data) do not have a particularly strong connection to the Levant. Half of the 6 are too rare to make any meaningful inferences, 1 is likely European, 1 is likely Levantine, and 1 has weak a Middle Eastern link.


If we're relying exclusively on a handful of samples from YFull, what is your proposed theory for how an Gulf Arab might have the closest sibling branch to an Ashkenazi one if not through a common Levantine ancestor? An Arabian convert to Judaism in Europe?

jonahst
09-20-2021, 12:18 AM
The Spanish/Portuguese subclades could've been brought to Spain by Persian immigrants some time after the Arab conquest. Anyway, I'm not implying a European origin for the Levite r1a. Just saying it has no known Levantine connection at present.



Actually, it's a lot less than 30%. It's curious how easily AJs can be modeled as almost pure S Italians:

46656

German AJs need only 14% extra Levantine ancestry, but otherwise can be modeled almost as pure S Italians. Ukrainian AJs need only an extra 6%. The population of SW Italy (Campania, Lazio, Sicily) do carry significantly more Levant_N ancestry than all other Italians, and so do many Greeks, particularly the islanders. So you can model EAJs as being less than 10% Levantine, more than 90% European (disregarding some minor ancestry from elsewhere) if you insist that Jews are just converted S Italians (and Greeks), Zoossmann-Diskin style.

Or you can realistically model them as more than 30% Levantine, less than 70% European if you use a more Central Italian-like population which has low Levant_PPNB. This is what the entire argument is about: how much of the Levant_PPNB ancestry in AJs is from Levant_PPNB rich S European populations and how much of it is directly from the Levant.

According to this model, AJs have little-to-no North European admixture?

jonahst
09-20-2021, 12:35 AM
The more I look into it, the more questions I have. Back when I decided to find out what genetics could tell us about the origins of the Ashkenazim and what it could tell us about the Big Question (to what extent the AJ's are descended from Ancient Israelites as opposed to later converts), earlier this year, I decided to be as open-minded about it as possible. And it's just.. not looking good. Judaism WAS an actively proselytizing religion for centuries, so I'm not sure what I expected. I still plan to find out what my Y-DNA subclade is, but now I just don't know what it could tell me about my patrilineal origin.

The extent to which Judaism was "actively proselytizing" is grossly exaggerated. Hellenistic Judaism, which paved the road for Christianity to sweep through Europe, certainly received a considerable number of converts, but these were always a minority and the extent to which these converts left living descendants relative to non-converts is suspect. Think of Reform vs. Orthodox converts today as an analogy. How many Reform converts to Judaism do you think will have Jewish descendants hundreds of years down the line?

The vast majority of Jewish sympathizers were also not formal converts, but "God-fearers," somewhat akin to Evangelicals today who emulate and glorify Jews/Judaism.

Moreover, as is attested to in the historical records and confirmed by the genetic data, the vast majority of converts were women. This (obvious) fact really can't be overstated.

It's great to have questions, but it seems like you've already drawn your conclusions.

jonahst
09-20-2021, 01:50 AM
Actually, it's a lot less than 30%. It's curious how easily AJs can be modeled as almost pure S Italians:

46656

German AJs need only 14% extra Levantine ancestry, but otherwise can be modeled almost as pure S Italians. Ukrainian AJs need only an extra 6%. The population of SW Italy (Campania, Lazio, Sicily) do carry significantly more Levant_N ancestry than all other Italians, and so do many Greeks, particularly the islanders. So you can model EAJs as being less than 10% Levantine, more than 90% European (disregarding some minor ancestry from elsewhere) if you insist that Jews are just converted S Italians (and Greeks), Zoossmann-Diskin style.

Or you can realistically model them as more than 30% Levantine, less than 70% European if you use a more Central Italian-like population which has low Levant_PPNB. This is what the entire argument is about: how much of the Levant_PPNB ancestry in AJs is from Levant_PPNB rich S European populations and how much of it is directly from the Levant.

Okay, here's a slightly more plausible model that doesn't overfit using redundant populations and doesn't lack one of the most integral components of modern Ashkenazi ancestry: Eastern European. It's far from perfect (as is evident from Lithuanian and Belarusian Ashkenazim scoring more Levantine than German Ashkenazim), but nonetheless, it's a much more realistic model than yours.

46705

Woozler
09-20-2021, 03:00 AM
Just because you discovered things are more complex than you were lead to believe doesn't mean the complete opposite narrative is true. The early studies on Jewish uniparentals were definitely biased IMO and did stretch things in favor of the Levant when possible.

Oh, I'm not arguing the opposite. In fact, I'm not even that far away from that neighboring long thread's original admixture calculations that showed the Levantine share of EAJ ancestry at only around 25%. But I was surprised to find out that a significant number of patrilineals in AJs is likely to be European. Perhaps less than 50%, but quite possibly something close to that - and that after I was led to believe that it was almost entirely women who converted to Judaism in Europe.


Once you gain a deeper understanding of this stuff, you'll be better able to make strong arguments of your own for the origin of a given line. My dms are always open for help.

Actually, thank you. Once I get myself tested, I'd definitely be interested in finding out more about my ancestry.

Woozler
09-20-2021, 03:26 AM
.
That is distinctly false. And I proved it via my bronze age calculator which are as homogenous as post neolithic levantine populations can be. Go back to my last comments and see for yourself.

Ashkenazim are around 35-45 percent the amount of levantine that an average Lebanese Christian has, and around 40-50 percent the amount of Middle East North African (levantine + north Africa) of that of a Leb Christian and around 50-56 percent the amount of WANA of that of a Lebanese christian, with Anatolian BA included as well and beast Iran for WANA category.

Some Eastern AJ's have less than 20% Levant Neolithic. Some SW Italians (Campania, Lazio) and Greeks have around 14% Levant Neolithic. It doesn't take a significant amount of additional Levantine ancestry to get to 20% if we assume that AJ's are largely descended from Greeks and SW Italians. I showed you ("proved it") how EAJ's can be modeled as 90% Italian with a pretty good fit. Which is not necessarily the case, but it's not completely implausible.


Ashkenazim are pretty much half Lebanese Christians (a modern levantine population) and half European, with Greek, Mediterranean, and Baltic/Balkan components.

We're back to my original question. How did they get so much steppe, then? Ukrainian Jews would need to be 50% Levantine, 50% Norwegian to account for so much steppe ancestry. We're not seeing this in general admixture calculators which show AJs to be largely Mediterranean.


The conversions were not as widespread as once thought. A mass.conversion of Hellenistic Jews under the Roman empire was not as common, heir practices were differentt than contemporary Judeans.

You definitely won't be able to show it from EAJ maternal lineages, which are overwhelmingly European, and, as it turned out, from EAJ paternal lineages, quite a few of which are likely to be European as well.


Not to.mention, in my model that I shared will show Sicilians to be MUCH more BA Anatolian than ashkenazim who are.mcuh more shifted to.megiddo. that isn't coincidence

Which is why I thought it was a reasonable idea to use Tepecik Ciftlik in addition to Barcin for EAJs as well as for S Italians and use the Samaritans for comparison. The calculator showed that Ashkenazi_Belarussia probably had around 25% Levantine ancestry that had nothing to do with Italians. And based on what I've learned so far it still seems to me to be the most reasonable estimate of EAJ ancestry: around 25% Levantine, 25% Central/Eastern Europe, 50% S Europe (probably mostly Italian, but likely at least some Greek as well).

Woozler
09-20-2021, 03:59 AM
All of those sibling branches are from the same general region in the Southern Caucasus and northwestern Iran, which border Upper Mesopotamia. These aren't randomly distributed throughout Iran. Just because we haven't yet found downstream sibling branches in the Levant doesn't mean they aren't there (you're talking about literally a handful of samples), but it is safe to assume that Ashkenazi R1a-Y2619 did not come from a European convert. We're also talking about a region that provided considerable genetic inflow to the Levant beginning in the Chalcolithic, so it's not a stretch to imagine that there could be undiscovered downstream among the millions of untested Levantines.

The question that interested me was not whether that R1a was from a converted European or a converted Persian, but whether it was already present in ancient Israelites. And as far as I know, so far that particular subclade has no link to the Levant. There are millions of untested Levantines - but also millions of untested Iranians and Iraqis. What if this particular subclade is from an early medieval Babylonian or Persian convert? Would it change much? It still wouldn't be ancient Israelite.


You don't need pre-exilic Jewish apostates in Southern Europe to explain sibling branches among Southern Europeans. Virtually all of Mediterranean Europe was colonized and populated by Near Easterners (and specifically Levantines) throughout the Roman period.

The tmrca's of the sibling clades in Europe are pre-Roman, and have no Levantine matches. That's the point.





If we're relying exclusively on a handful of samples from YFull, what is your proposed theory for how an Gulf Arab might have the closest sibling branch to an Ashkenazi one if not through a common Levantine ancestor? An Arabian convert to Judaism in Europe?

You're too focused on Europe. There were early medieval Jewish converts in many parts of Asia, as well.


According to this model, AJs have little-to-no North European admixture?

My point was that you can prove just about anything with those admixture calculators as long as the populations you're comparing are a similar mixture of the same basic ingredients. The models need to be realistic, which definitely does not apply either to the "Jews are 90% Italian, 10% Levantine" story or to the "Eastern European Jews are 50% Levantine, 50% some other population that would raise their steppe to 27%, yet still somehow keep them largely S Italian-like."


The extent to which Judaism was "actively proselytizing" is grossly exaggerated.

Not according to the uniparentals. Not according to written history, which showed over 10,000 Jewish CONVERTS fleeing to the Islamic world in the High Middle Ages from Europe.


Hellenistic Judaism, which paved the road for Christianity to sweep through Europe, certainly received a considerable number of converts, but these were always a minority

In the Near East, possibly. But in Europe?


Moreover, as is attested to in the historical records and confirmed by the genetic data, the vast majority of converts were women. This (obvious) fact really can't be overstated.


As I said, that's what I believed until several days ago. Then I looked at YFull. And I can't say that leorcooper19 disagrees with that. May I remind you that this is what he said about the MOST common AJ J2 lineage:

"1. J-Y15223 - 4.48% of Ashkenazi Jews - J-L210 likely expanded both north, south, and west from the Caucasus c. 2500 BCE. Current thinking is that its Iron Age origin (J-Y15222 level) is either Greek or Anatolian, given the significant presence of Southern Italians and Greeks. Could be Levantine (the presence of some Arabs may suggest this) but I doubt it."



It's great to have questions, but it seems like you've already drawn your conclusions.

No, I'm afraid this statement applies more to you than to me. I'm seeing is some obviously Levantine paternal lineages and some obviously European ones. I'm seeing definite Levantine ancestry in AJs, and definitely European ancestry. I'm even open to AJs having more than 30% Levantine ancestry (at the expense of Italian and Greek ancestry, and provided that the admixture calculators can realistically show more than 30% of higher-steppe European ancestry, mostly Central and some Eastern European, which may be perfectly feasible).

I'm seeing a very complex history of European Jewry.

jonahst
09-20-2021, 04:18 AM
The question that interested me was not whether that R1a was from a converted European or a converted Persian, but whether it was already present in ancient Israelites. And as far as I know, so far that particular subclade has no link to the Levant. There are millions of untested Levantines - but also millions of untested Iranians and Iraqis. What if this particular subclade is from an early medieval Babylonian or Persian convert? Would it change much? It still wouldn't be ancient Israelite.

It makes an enormous difference when your entire claim is that AJs are overwhelmingly European. What you've actually touched on is an important point that you've thus far overlooked. Ashkenazim have non-Levantine Middle Eastern ancestry, largely a mix of Mesopotamian and North African. So even if, hypothetically, they were only 20-25% Levantine, that wouldn't make the remaining 75-80% exclusively European.


The tmrca's of the sibling clades in Europe are pre-Roman, and have no Levantine matches. That's the point.

We have a couple of Southern European matches and a ton of Jews. If these were simply Southern European converts as you suggest, shouldn't there be more Southern Europeans upstream rather than primarily MENA samples? The fact that these haplogroups are so rare outside of Jews should tell you something.


You're too focused on Europe. There were early medieval Jewish converts in many parts of Asia, as well.

Again, Europe has been entirely your focus.


My point was that you can prove just about anything with those admixture calculators as long as the populations you're comparing are a similar mixture of the same basic ingredients. The models need to be realistic, which definitely does not apply either to the "Jews are 90% Italian, 10% Levantine" story or to the "Eastern European Jews are 50% Levantine, 50% some other population that would raise their steppe to 27%, yet still somehow keep them largely S Italian-like."

You're fixated on Neolithic and other prehistoric population references. Maybe use samples from relevant time frames, like Roman-era and medieval? Your model excludes some of the most relevant regions to prove a point that could be proven with a single population Oracle on GEDmatch. We all know that Ashkenazim are autosomally close to East Med populations like South Italians and Greek Islanders, but that says nothing about Jewish history.


Not according to the uniparentals. Not according to written history, which showed over 10,000 Jewish CONVERTS fleeing to the Islamic world in the High Middle Ages from Europe.

Which uniparentals? The mtDNA that's heavily North European? Or the Y-DNA that's largely Middle Eastern? What's your source for these 10,000 Jewish converts fleeing to the Islamic world? Wouldn't these have then impacted Mizrahi or Maghrebi Jews instead of Ashkenazim? This makes no sense whatsoever.


In the Near East, possibly. But in Europe?

How do you think Christianity spread so quickly throughout the Roman Empire (very much including the Southern European mainland)? Hellenistic Judaism is the foundation of Christianity.


As I said, that's what I believed until several days ago. Then I looked at YFull. And I can't say that leorcooper19 disagrees with that. May I remind you that this is what he said about the MOST common AJ J2 lineage:

"1. J-Y15223 - 4.48% of Ashkenazi Jews - J-L210 likely expanded both north, south, and west from the Caucasus c. 2500 BCE. Current thinking is that its Iron Age origin (J-Y15222 level) is either Greek or Anatolian, given the significant presence of Southern Italians and Greeks. Could be Levantine (the presence of some Arabs may suggest this) but I doubt it."

Whether or not you still believe this, it's very much still the case.


No, I'm afraid this statement applies more to you than to me. I'm seeing is some obviously Levantine paternal lineages and some obviously European ones. I'm seeing definite Levantine ancestry in AJs, and definitely European ancestry. I'm even open to AJs having more than 30% Levantine ancestry (at the expense of Italian and Greek ancestry, and provided that the admixture calculators can realistically show more than 30% of higher-steppe European ancestry, mostly Central and some Eastern European, which may be perfectly feasible).

I'm seeing a very complex history of European Jewry.

I've been following this subject for years, you just popped in here. You're jumping to absurdly premature conclusions. European Jewish history (really all Jewish history) is extremely complex. There's no question about this, and in no way am I or would I dispute this. You mentioned the "long thread" in your response to Leo. There's a reason it's over 1000 pages long. Please do yourself a favor and look at the more recent posts because there have been many developments with the proposed theory since 2018.

Levantine_Viking
09-20-2021, 08:15 AM
Some Eastern AJ's have less than 20% Levant Neolithic. Some SW Italians (Campania, Lazio) and Greeks have around 14% Levant Neolithic. It doesn't take a significant amount of additional Levantine ancestry to get to 20% if we assume that AJ's are largely descended from Greeks and SW Italians. I showed you ("proved it") how EAJ's can be modeled as 90% Italian with a pretty good fit. Which is not necessarily the case, but it's not completely implausible.



We're back to my original question. How did they get so much steppe, then? Ukrainian Jews would need to be 50% Levantine, 50% Norwegian to account for so much steppe ancestry. We're not seeing this in general admixture calculators which show AJs to be largely Mediterranean.



You definitely won't be able to show it from EAJ maternal lineages, which are overwhelmingly European, and, as it turned out, from EAJ paternal lineages, quite a few of which are likely to be European as well.



Which is why I thought it was a reasonable idea to use Tepecik Ciftlik in addition to Barcin for EAJs as well as for S Italians and use the Samaritans for comparison. The calculator showed that Ashkenazi_Belarussia probably had around 25% Levantine ancestry that had nothing to do with Italians. And based on what I've learned so far it still seems to me to be the most reasonable estimate of EAJ ancestry: around 25% Levantine, 25% Central/Eastern Europe, 50% S Europe (probably mostly Italian, but likely at least some Greek as well).

What? None of this makes any sense. Neolithic models are not to be used to judge modern ancestry. N.Africans can be modeled as a result of European farmers and MAR neolithic. Levantines can be modeled as CHG Barcin Natufian and Iran as well as minor components of steppe. Italians are some of the most diverse people of west Eurasia neolithically so it does not do justice to ask why ashkenazim "have so many steppe" when steppe in fact exist in high amounts in mainland greek and northern Italians whom were some of the actual converts that mixed with Jewish families and had children with them, continuing Judean and levantine ethnicity.

Bronze age samples are.much BETTER to model (along with iron age) than utilizing neolithic components which are not and never used to specify continental ethnicity in a post neolithic context because intercontinental sharing. This is what bronze age samples are for and I gave you a model earlier showing ashkenazim to be 40-50 percent MENA (both levant, Iran, north Africa) of what a Lebanese christian would be, and around 50-55 percent WANA of what a Lebanese christian would be (and I'm total genome) with Anatolian bronze age added to the non European percentage.

AJs cam be modeled about 40-50 percent middle east north Africa and 55 percent west asian north Africa - the rest being south eu, Baltic, and west eu.

You forget one important thing about Jewish law. It goes thru the mother and any conversions happen thru a rabbinical process. Therefore, it's it illogical that "mass conversions happened" without any structural authority.

"Hellenistic Jews" also in Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, but I'm small numbers and isolated communities. The majority where in Judea until the mass expulsion.

Ajeje Brazorf
09-20-2021, 09:49 AM
Hard to tell how much there is in the AJs, literally every model can be used to either prove they have too little or too much. If it helps at all (I doubt it), the AJ average has about 35.37% of the Levant_PPNB component compared to Levant_Megiddo_MLBA, but we know that this is not enough, there are other sources of ancestry that have contributed to that percentage.



Sample
Fit
Levant_PPNB
Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
TUR_Barcin_N
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
MAR_Taforalt
Han
WHG


Ashkenazi_Jew
0.01945384
20.8
10.6
35.0
24.8
4.8
1.8
1.2
1.0


Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
0.02223952
58.8
29.6
0.0
0.0
11.6
0.0
0.0
0.0

SUPREEEEEME
09-20-2021, 06:17 PM
We're back to my original question. How did they get so much steppe, then? Ukrainian Jews would need to be 50% Levantine, 50% Norwegian to account for so much steppe ancestry. We're not seeing this in general admixture calculators which show AJs to be largely Mediterranean.


I don't understand the relevance of this focus with Steppe ancestry. Steppe ancestry isn't exclusive to Northern Europe, nor would Ashkenazi Jews only pick up Steppe ancestry there. It is the likely scenario that Ashkenazi Jews would pick up Steppe ancestry from several ancestral sources. This is how I model Ashkenazim currently:

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland
Distance: 0.7560% / 0.00756040
45.0 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
29.4 HRV_IA
8.8 DEU_MA_Baiuvaric
6.0 Canary_Islands_Guanche
5.0 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
4.4 Baltic_LTU_Late_Antiquity_low_res
1.4 CHN_Chuanyun_Historic

If there wasn't sufficient Steppe in these references, we wouldn't get such a great distance - at least that's the way I see it. Using Davidski's standard model for demonstration:

Target: Levant_Beirut_IAIII
Distance: 1.6454% / 0.01645387
42.2 Levant_PPNB
30.8 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
18.4 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
7.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: Baltic_LTU_Late_Antiquity_low_res
Distance: 10.4416% / 0.10441628
57.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
27.6 WHG
14.6 TUR_Barcin_N

Target: DEU_MA_Baiuvaric
Distance: 4.5378% / 0.04537841
50.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
35.8 TUR_Barcin_N
14.2 WHG


Target: Canary_Islands_Guanche
Distance: 1.8742% / 0.01874228
34.8 MAR_Taforalt
27.8 TUR_Barcin_N
15.8 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
7.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
5.2 Levant_PPNB
4.4 Yoruba
2.2 WHG
2.0 Dinka


Target: HRV_IA
Distance: 3.8417% / 0.03841726
61.2 TUR_Barcin_N
34.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
4.0 WHG


Target: IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
Distance: 3.2333% / 0.03233310
36.2 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
26.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
13.0 Levant_PPNB
11.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
11.4 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
1.0 Han

Target: CHN_Chuanyun_Historic
Distance: 2.5607% / 0.02560711
98.4 Han
1.2 BRA_LapaDoSanto_9600BP
0.2 Dinka
0.2 MAR_Taforalt

I'm sure there are better models to demonstrate this - but the point being Ashkenazi Steppe ancestry was likely picked up in Judea, Mesopotamia/Western Iran, North Africa, the Balkans, Central Europe, and Eastern Europe. Considering this, I'm really not surprised it's as high as it is.

Woozler
09-23-2021, 02:04 AM
Ok, what's going on? I've been playing with these calculators, using modern populations, and this is what I'm getting:

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland
Distance: 1.1656% / 0.01165621
55.2 Italian_Campania
21.8 Lebanese_Christian
8.0 Polish
7.6 Egyptian
7.4 German

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland
Distance: 1.1141% / 0.01114110
56.4 Italian_Campania
19.6 Samaritan
11.6 German
7.0 Egyptian
5.4 Polish


Regardless of whether I'm using Lebanese Christians or Samaritans as a proxy for Levantines, I'm getting about 20%. But at the same time Egyptians get a surprisingly high 7-8%. If I remove the Egyptian, the fit gets noticeably worse, but Levantine ancestry jumps to 30-35%.

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland
Distance: 1.4251% / 0.01425144
47.4 Italian_Campania
35.4 Lebanese_Christian
9.2 German
8.0 Polish

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland
Distance: 1.3402% / 0.01340157
51.2 Italian_Campania
29.8 Samaritan
14.8 German
4.2 Polish

Am I doing something wrong or do AJs have a much higher N Africa ancestry than I thought? I thought it was in the very low single digits.

Interesting how massive the improvement is from just a little bit of extra Kirghiz-like ancestry. Something picked up on the Silk Road?

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland
Distance: 0.6974% / 0.00697411
54.6 Italian_Campania
21.8 Samaritan
16.6 German
4.8 Egyptian
2.2 Kirghiz

Notice also how much worse the fit gets if we substitute Campania for pretty much any other region in Italy (Lazio, Tuscany, Sicily West). Why is that? What's so special about Campania? Sicily West is also high in Levantine ancestry, and Lazio is not far behind. But the Samaritan-like ancestry does jump to 31-35%, although in the case of Sicily West it does so at the expense of the Egyptian ancestry.

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland
Distance: 0.8920% / 0.00892031
46.4 Italian_Lazio
31.0 Samaritan
15.0 German
4.8 Egyptian
2.8 Kirghiz

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland
Distance: 0.9194% / 0.00919382
46.4 Italian_Tuscany
35.2 Samaritan
11.0 German
4.8 Egyptian
2.6 Kirghiz

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland
Distance: 1.0718% / 0.01071829
52.4 Sicilian_West
30.8 Samaritan
14.6 German
2.2 Kirghiz

Woozler
09-23-2021, 03:09 AM
What's curious is that ancient calculators seem to like Egyptians:


Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine
Distance: 0.8066% / 0.00806552
26.8 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
15.4 HUN_Avar_Period
14.4 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
12.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
12.0 DEU_MA_Alemannic
8.2 HUN_Avar_Szolad
7.6 EGY_Late_Period
3.2 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2

If I remove the Beirut Egyptian, the fit gets worse, and EGY_Late_Period jumps to replace it:

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine
Distance: 0.8527% / 0.00852735
26.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
21.8 EGY_Late_Period
13.8 HUN_Avar_Period
13.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
12.8 DEU_MA_Alemannic
8.8 HUN_Avar_Szolad
2.0 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
1.6 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2

If I remove EGY_Late_Period, I get a better fit:

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine
Distance: 0.8168% / 0.00816825
26.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
20.6 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
16.6 HUN_Avar_Period
11.8 DEU_MA_Alemannic
11.6 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
7.8 HUN_Avar_Szolad
5.0 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
0.4 Levant_PPNB

Remember, I'm pretty new to this, so I'm not entirely sure how to interpret this.

passenger
09-23-2021, 03:23 AM
What's curious is that ancient calculators seem to like Egyptians:

Well, for one thing Western Jews (both Ashkenazim and Sephardim) have a non-negligible portion of North African ancestry. It's probably not much more than 4 or 5% on average for Ashkenazim, depending on the model, but that's significant enough that if you don't include any North African reference in your model (such as Canary_Islands_Guanche), I think it's natural that it will favor those Egyptian samples that straddle the border between North Africa and the Levant.

Seabass
09-23-2021, 03:39 AM
Edit: Delete, Passenger covered it.

Woozler
09-23-2021, 03:40 AM
But is there a reason that Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian gets 20-21%, while Ashkelon_IA and pretty much any other Levantine I tried between them get only several percent? Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian eats up almost the entire Levantine ancestry in AJs. Ah, the Exodus confirmed! Or maybe not.

Seabass
09-23-2021, 03:43 AM
But is there a reason that Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian gets 20-21%, while Ashkelon_IA and pretty much any other Levantine I tried between them get only several percent? Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian eats up almost the entire Levantine ancestry in AJs. Ah, the Exodus confirmed! Or maybe not.

IA Egyptian is already pretty close to Bronze Age Canaanites genetically, just a little more Natufian-like maybe. Try that model again with Canary Islanders (some are pre-Islamic North Africans) and see if it persists

Woozler
09-23-2021, 03:47 AM
IA Egyptian is already pretty close to Bronze Age Canaanites genetically, just a little more Natufian-like maybe. Try that model again with Canary Islanders (some are pre-Islamic North Africans) and see if it persists

It did, big time:

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine
Distance: 0.6227% / 0.00622675
27.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
15.6 HUN_Avar_Period
12.0 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
10.8 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
10.6 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
10.0 DEU_MA_Alemannic
9.0 HUN_Avar_Szolad
4.8 Canary_Islands_Guanche


Then I added Canary_Islands_Guanche to my five modern populations and this is what I got:

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine
Distance: 0.6302% / 0.00630182
48.4 Italian_Campania
24.6 Samaritan
20.2 German
3.4 Canary_Islands_Guanche
2.6 Kirghiz
0.8 Egyptian

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland
Distance: 0.5978% / 0.00597775
51.8 Italian_Campania
25.4 Samaritan
17.0 German
3.6 Canary_Islands_Guanche
2.2 Kirghiz

Canary Islands almost completely replaced the Egyptians. Fascinating. You can completely replace the Egyptian with Canary_Islands_Guanche, it will still be a better fit. In fact, I can just replace the Guanche with a Moroccan Berber and get the same fit:

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland
Distance: 0.5802% / 0.00580197
53.0 Italian_Campania
25.2 Samaritan
16.8 German
2.6 Berber_MAR_TIZ
2.4 Kirghiz

Replacing German with German_East improves the fit, but lowers both the German and the Samaritan share:

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland
Distance: 0.5639% / 0.00563867
58.4 Italian_Campania
22.4 Samaritan
14.0 German_East
2.8 Berber_MAR_TIZ
2.4 Kirghiz

Woozler
09-23-2021, 04:47 AM
I decided to replace all ancient Levantine samples with modern Samaritans. It didn't change the ratios that much. This is what I got:

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine
Distance: 0.5207% / 0.00520689
25.8 Samaritan
21.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
10.0 DEU_MA_Alemannic
8.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad
8.6 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
8.0 HUN_Avar_Period
6.6 Canary_Islands_Guanche
5.2 ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA
5.2 ITA_Rome_Imperial
1.0 HUN_Hun_elite_Antiquity

I can remove HUN_Hun_elite_Antiquity and ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA to possibly avoid overfitting. The fit will get worse, but still decent:

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine
Distance: 0.5711% / 0.00571120
22.0 Samaritan
17.6 HUN_Avar_Period
17.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
12.0 ITA_Rome_Imperial
10.8 DEU_MA_Alemannic
7.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
7.0 Canary_Islands_Guanche
6.2 HUN_Avar_Szolad

But I cannot remove HUN_Avar_Period without making the fit significantly worse. What does it stand for? It might be looking for a bit of that Kirghiz like ancestry.

jonahst
09-23-2021, 05:34 AM
I decided to replace all ancient Levantine samples with modern Samaritans. It didn't change the ratios that much. This is what I got:

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine
Distance: 0.5207% / 0.00520689
25.8 Samaritan
21.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
10.0 DEU_MA_Alemannic
8.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad
8.6 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
8.0 HUN_Avar_Period
6.6 Canary_Islands_Guanche
5.2 ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA
5.2 ITA_Rome_Imperial
1.0 HUN_Hun_elite_Antiquity

I can remove HUN_Hun_elite_Antiquity and ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA to possibly avoid overfitting. The fit will get worse, but still decent:

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine
Distance: 0.5711% / 0.00571120
22.0 Samaritan
17.6 HUN_Avar_Period
17.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
12.0 ITA_Rome_Imperial
10.8 DEU_MA_Alemannic
7.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
7.0 Canary_Islands_Guanche
6.2 HUN_Avar_Szolad

But I cannot remove HUN_Avar_Period without making the fit significantly worse. What does it stand for? It might be looking for a bit of that Kirghiz like ancestry.

You should really take a look at the long thread on Western Jewish ancestry. It will answer a lot of your questions.

Woozler
09-23-2021, 06:01 AM
What's fascinating is that HUN_Avar_Period is going to stay quite prominent even if you add it to modern populations:

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine
Distance: 0.4095% / 0.00409471
43.0 Italian_Campania
15.2 Samaritan
12.2 French_Alsace
11.6 HUN_Avar_Period
9.4 Iraqi_Jew
3.8 Polish_Kashubian
3.6 Berber_MAR_TIZ
1.2 Kirghiz

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland
Distance: 0.4823% / 0.00482263
50.2 Italian_Campania
17.8 Samaritan
9.8 French_Alsace
7.0 HUN_Avar_Period
6.6 Iraqi_Jew
4.0 Polish_Kashubian
3.2 Berber_MAR_TIZ
1.4 Kirghiz

I also added Iraqi_Jew (adding Iranian_Jew or Georgian_Jew on top of that did nothing). Also, significant improvement if German is replaced with French_Alsace.

Claudio
09-23-2021, 10:12 AM
What's fascinating is that HUN_Avar_Period is going to stay quite prominent even if you add it to modern populations:

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine
Distance: 0.4095% / 0.00409471
43.0 Italian_Campania
15.2 Samaritan
12.2 French_Alsace
11.6 HUN_Avar_Period
9.4 Iraqi_Jew
3.8 Polish_Kashubian
3.6 Berber_MAR_TIZ
1.2 Kirghiz

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland
Distance: 0.4823% / 0.00482263
50.2 Italian_Campania
17.8 Samaritan
9.8 French_Alsace
7.0 HUN_Avar_Period
6.6 Iraqi_Jew
4.0 Polish_Kashubian
3.2 Berber_MAR_TIZ
1.4 Kirghiz

I also added Iraqi_Jew (adding Iranian_Jew or Georgian_Jew on top of that did nothing). Also, significant improvement if German is replaced with French_Alsace.

try your model on German Ashkenazim for comparison.

Btw there is historical & mtdna evidence of minor chinese ancestry in Ashkenasim via Han era Silk road.. maybe try adding a medieval chinese component?

Claudio
09-23-2021, 01:54 PM
You should really take a look at the long thread on Western Jewish ancestry. It will answer a lot of your questions.

Good luck scrolling through 1000+ pages :laugh:

Woozler
09-23-2021, 04:24 PM
I tried Italian Jews. Even with overfitting (4 Levantine samples, including 1 modern (Samaritan)), the Levantine ancestry stays below 33%:

Target: Italian_Jew
Distance: 0.4488% / 0.00448778
42.6 Italian_Campania
15.4 Italian_Bergamo
10.6 Levant_LBN_MA
7.6 Levant_Megiddo_IBA
7.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
6.6 Levant_Megiddo_IA
6.6 Samaritan
2.8 MAR_EN
0.6 Kirghiz

All European Jews seem to be irresistibly drawn to Campania for some reason. When the moon hits the eye like a pig pizza pie...

Running Italian Jews with ancient Europeans I get this (Samaritan is not really necessary for this, the fit will be the same without it):

Target: Italian_Jew
Distance: 0.4824% / 0.00482365
36.8 ITA_Rome_MA
24.8 ITA_Rome_Imperial
11.0 Levant_LBN_MA
8.8 Levant_Megiddo_IA
8.4 GRC_Minoan_EBA
5.4 Levant_Megiddo_IBA
3.0 MAR_EN
1.2 Samaritan
0.6 Kirghiz

Claudio
09-23-2021, 04:38 PM
I tried Italian Jews. Even with overfitting (4 Levantine samples, including 1 modern (Samaritan)), the Levantine ancestry stays below 33%:

Target: Italian_Jew
Distance: 0.4488% / 0.00448778
42.6 Italian_Campania
15.4 Italian_Bergamo
10.6 Levant_LBN_MA
7.6 Levant_Megiddo_IBA
7.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
6.6 Levant_Megiddo_IA
6.6 Samaritan
2.8 MAR_EN
0.6 Kirghiz

All European Jews seem to be irresistibly drawn to Campania for some reason. When the moon hits the eye like a pig pizza pie...

...”That’s Amore!” :biggrin1:

Claudio
09-23-2021, 07:49 PM
I tried Italian Jews. Even with overfitting (4 Levantine samples, including 1 modern (Samaritan)), the Levantine ancestry stays below 33%:

Target: Italian_Jew
Distance: 0.4488% / 0.00448778
42.6 Italian_Campania
15.4 Italian_Bergamo
10.6 Levant_LBN_MA
7.6 Levant_Megiddo_IBA
7.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
6.6 Levant_Megiddo_IA
6.6 Samaritan
2.8 MAR_EN
0.6 Kirghiz

All European Jews seem to be irresistibly drawn to Campania for some reason. When the moon hits the eye like a pig pizza pie...

Running Italian Jews with ancient Europeans I get this (Samaritan is not really necessary for this, the fit will be the same without it):

Target: Italian_Jew
Distance: 0.4824% / 0.00482365
36.8 ITA_Rome_MA
24.8 ITA_Rome_Imperial
11.0 Levant_LBN_MA
8.8 Levant_Megiddo_IA
8.4 GRC_Minoan_EBA
5.4 Levant_Megiddo_IBA
3.0 MAR_EN
1.2 Samaritan
0.6 Kirghiz

What about Sephardim & Romaniotes?

Are they also irresistibly drawn to Campania?

Or do they prefer Paella & Moussaka?

leorcooper19
09-23-2021, 08:41 PM
All European Jews seem to be irresistibly drawn to Campania for some reason.

That probably has something to do with Campania being one of the closest Italian populations to Samaritans:
Distance to: Samaritan
0.06691247 Italian_Jew
0.08626592 Italian_Calabria
0.08718981 Maltese
0.08859565 Italian_Campania
0.09009215 Sicilian_East
0.09384174 Italian_Basilicata
0.09528012 Italian_Apulia
0.09740258 Sicilian_West
0.10132953 Italian_Abruzzo
0.10395546 Italian_Molise
0.10841894 Italian_Lazio
0.11338986 Italian_Marche
0.11587533 Italian_Umbria
0.12506340 Italian_Tuscany
0.13458848 Italian_Piedmont
0.13988961 Italian_Liguria
0.14252596 Italian_Lombardy
0.14670888 Italian_Bergamo
0.14879497 Italian_Veneto
0.15363382 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.15662280 Italian_Northeast
0.16423845 Italian_Aosta_Valley

Why is that? Well, Italians have non-trivial ancestry from the IA Near East, including Levantine. You have to factor this in when estimating total Levantine. So, if your model that you said "the Levantine ancestry stays below 33%," you really mean "33% extra Levantine on top of the already present Levantine component in modern Campanians."

Campanians are also some of the closest people to Ashkenazi Jews in terms of euclidean distance. You can argue that's because Western Jews are mostly southern Italian, or you can argue that's because Western Jews and southern Italians have relatively similar ratios of similar components but their overall similarity is due to coincidence. You can create models with good fits for either narrative, and the uniparental evidence can really only say that both are potentially correct. I frankly don't think that any method that's readily available and understandable to us hobbyists can effectively determine which narrative is correct. That's probably because the truth is somewhere in the middle! (not to be a centrist or anything ;) )

Woozler
09-23-2021, 09:24 PM
Campanians are also some of the closest people to Ashkenazi Jews in terms of euclidean distance. You can argue that's because Western Jews are mostly southern Italian, or you can argue that's because Western Jews and southern Italians have relatively similar ratios of similar components but their overall similarity is due to coincidence. You can create models with good fits for either narrative, and the uniparental evidence can really only say that both are potentially correct. I frankly don't think that any method that's readily available and understandable to us hobbyists can effectively determine which narrative is correct. That's probably because the truth is somewhere in the middle! (not to be a centrist or anything ;) )

OK, I'm going to stop arguing the extent to which European Jews are Italian and the extent to which they are Levantine.

But anyway, what's a bit more interesting, what's that HUN_Avar_Period? Why does it want to feature prominently even in the presence of other presumably nomadic groups, like Kirghiz or Scythian_UKR? Anyway, pretty good fit, and over 30% Middle Eastern:

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine
Distance: 0.3392% / 0.00339190
21.6 French_Alsace
19.8 Italian_Campania
16.2 Samaritan
15.4 Iraqi_Jew
11.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
5.8 HUN_Avar_Period
4.2 Berber_MAR_TIZ
4.0 Polish_Kashubian
1.8 Kirghiz

But pizza will have to be surrendered in exchange for flammekueche and sauerkraut.

leorcooper19
09-23-2021, 10:44 PM
But anyway, what's a bit more interesting, what's that HUN_Avar_Period? Why does it want to feature prominently even in the presence of other presumably nomadic groups, like Kirghiz or Scythian_UKR? Anyway, pretty good fit, and over 30% Middle Eastern:

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine
Distance: 0.3392% / 0.00339190
21.6 French_Alsace
19.8 Italian_Campania
16.2 Samaritan
15.4 Iraqi_Jew
11.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
5.8 HUN_Avar_Period
4.2 Berber_MAR_TIZ
4.0 Polish_Kashubian
1.8 Kirghiz

HUN_Avar_Period's closest moderns:
Distance to: HUN_Avar_Period
0.03838883 Turkish_Deliorman
0.04440494 Gagauz
0.04664976 Bulgarian
0.04772714 Turkish_Rumeli
0.04816182 Italian_Liguria
0.04852699 Greek_Macedonia
0.04987007 Romanian
0.05025964 Swiss_Italian
0.05028890 Albanian
0.05048845 Greek_Thessaly
0.05085719 Macedonian
0.05097568 Italian_Piedmont
0.05165100 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.05211768 Italian_Lombardy
0.05235886 Italian_Northeast
0.05289824 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.05379910 Rumelia_East
0.05465499 Italian_Veneto
0.05517681 Italian_Tuscany
0.05536430 Italian_Marche
0.05632647 Moldovan
0.05651500 Greek_Peloponnese
0.05668419 Italian_Bergamo
0.05745798 French_Provence
0.05804708 Serbian


HUN_Avar_Period's closest ancients:
Distance to: HUN_Avar_Period
0.03511277 Scythian_MDA
0.03837774 DEU_MA_Alemannic_o1
0.04072557 ITA_Proto-Villanovan
0.04748066 DEU_MA_ACD
0.05065065 GRC_Helladic_MBA
0.05089919 ITA_Rome_MA
0.05392055 VK2020_ITA_Foggia_MA
0.05956560 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
0.05976801 HRV_IA
0.06013407 DEU_MA_Alemannic_o2
0.06076740 HRV_EBA
0.06111063 HRV_Pop_RomanP
0.06134376 HUN_MA
0.06140063 Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE
0.06247570 Bell_Beaker_CHE
0.06378553 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
0.06404054 ITA_Etruscan
0.06415515 HRV_Pop_CA
0.06418025 ITA_Rome_Renaissance
0.06653252 HUN_MBA_Vatya
0.06664828 ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance
0.06679122 Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL
0.06690162 Iberia_Northeast_c.6-8CE_ES
0.06721824 HRV_MBA
0.06732598 HUN_Prescythian_IA


HUN_Avar_Period basically models as 3/4 IA Hungarian and 1/4 Central Asian or Sarmatian-like. That EAJs seem to consistently score it is probably due to IA Hungarians having a similar profile to IA Greeks and Italians as well as a slight need for higher IRN_N and ANE ancestries present in that Sarmatian-like quarter. I'd suggest using references like KAZ_Nomad_MA for Khazar and RUS_Alan_MA for North Caucasian and CHN_Layi_1400bp for East Asian. With these references and the proper Euro ones I doubt it would still be scored.


But pizza will have to be surrendered in exchange for flammekueche and sauerkraut.
:nono:

Woozler
09-23-2021, 11:14 PM
I'd suggest using references like KAZ_Nomad_MA for Khazar and RUS_Alan_MA for North Caucasian and CHN_Layi_1400bp for East Asian. With these references and the proper Euro ones I doubt it would still be scored.

Nope. HUN_Avar_Period is still prominent, there's a tiny bit of the Khazar, and no CHN_Layi or RUS_Alan. And the Kirghiz is still there. Probably a better proxy for the East Asian admixture than CHN_Layi, for whatever reason?

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine
Distance: 0.3732% / 0.00373155
25.0 Samaritan
23.8 French_Alsace
14.8 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
10.0 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
7.4 BGR_IA
6.8 Canary_Islands_Guanche
4.2 HUN_Avar_Period
3.8 HUN_Avar_Szolad
1.8 ITA_Rome_Imperial
1.4 Kirghiz
0.8 ITA_Rome_MA
0.2 KAZ_Nomad_MA

Also, the model needs next to no ITA_Rome_Imperial and ITA_Rome_MA, unlike Italian_Jew. But that means a lot of sauerkraut.

It's 35% Middle Eastern.

Oh, here's the Italian_Jew:

Target: Italian_Jew
Distance: 0.6417% / 0.00641715
29.0 ITA_Rome_Imperial
24.8 Samaritan
21.0 ITA_Rome_MA
10.0 BGR_IA
7.8 Canary_Islands_Guanche
4.4 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
1.6 French_Alsace
0.8 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
0.6 KAZ_Nomad_MA

Greekscholar
09-23-2021, 11:46 PM
Nope. HUN_Avar_Period is still prominent, there's a tiny bit of the Khazar, and no CHN_Layi or RUS_Alan. And the Kirghiz is still there. Probably a better proxy for the East Asian admixture than CHN_Layi, for whatever reason?

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine
Distance: 0.3732% / 0.00373155
25.0 Samaritan
23.8 French_Alsace
14.8 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
10.0 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
7.4 BGR_IA
6.8 Canary_Islands_Guanche
4.2 HUN_Avar_Period
3.8 HUN_Avar_Szolad
1.8 ITA_Rome_Imperial
1.4 Kirghiz
0.8 ITA_Rome_MA
0.2 KAZ_Nomad_MA

Also, the model needs next to no ITA_Rome_Imperial and ITA_Rome_MA, unlike Italian_Jew. But that means a lot of sauerkraut.

It's 35% Middle Eastern.

Oh, here's the Italian_Jew:

Target: Italian_Jew
Distance: 0.6417% / 0.00641715
29.0 ITA_Rome_Imperial
24.8 Samaritan
21.0 ITA_Rome_MA
10.0 BGR_IA
7.8 Canary_Islands_Guanche
4.4 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
1.6 French_Alsace
0.8 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
0.6 KAZ_Nomad_MA

You more or less created a workable model for the Roman Imperial Average with the components you are already using. I think your model is overfitting because of using so many overlapping sources from different time periods.

Target: ITA_Rome_Imperial
Distance: 1.4279% / 0.01427891
39.4 BGR_IA
23.6 Samaritan
18.6 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
18.4 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2

Woozler
09-24-2021, 02:54 AM
I've just run this:

https://i.ibb.co/zVDJ8mC/JR.jpg

Overfit or not, why do Rome_Imperial and Italian_Campania show noticeable BGR_IA and ITA_Etruscan, while Ashkenazi_Ukraine and Italian_Jew show next to none? Perhaps Ashkenazi Jews have little to no Italian in them after all.


Same, but with Samaritan instead of Ashkelon. Better fit for the Jewish samples, worse for Roman imperial. Also, this messed up the BGR_IA and Etruscan sources. So, um, nevermind. Heh.

https://i.ibb.co/7JK8y3M/JR2.jpg

Ajeje Brazorf
09-24-2021, 12:10 PM
The percentage of Levantine DNA in AJ depends on which population you are considering, if they are compared to Baqah_BA they will have far less than when they are compared to Beirut_IAIII. I honestly have no idea how much Levant_PPNB the Jews had on average in the 1st century AD, but I think it was just a tad lower than the Bronze Age.



Sample
Fit
Levant_PPNB
Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
TUR_Barcin_N
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
Dinka
MAR_Taforalt
Han
WHG


Ashkenazi_Jew
0.01945384
20.8
10.6
4.8
35.0
24.8
0.0
1.8
1.2
1.0


Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
0.02938459
37.4
35.6
10.6
13.2
0.0
3.2
0.0
0.0
0.0


Levant_LBN_MA
0.02713784
44.0
34.0
10.2
10.2
1.2
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0


Levant_Beirut_IAIII
0.01800001
47.0
36.2
6.6
9.6
0.6
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0


Levant_LBN_Roman
0.02168205
48.2
28.8
11.8
8.4
2.8
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0


Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
0.03154497
51.8
30.8
12.8
4.6
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0


Levant_Beirut_ERoman
0.02541583
52.2
24.6
15.4
6.0
1.8
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0


Levant_Megiddo_IA
0.04181472
55.8
33.2
11.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0


Levant_Abel_IA
0.02953069
56.8
33.8
9.4
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0


Levant_Shadud_MLBA
0.03351230
58.0
36.8
4.8
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0


Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
0.02223952
58.8
29.6
11.6
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0


Levant_Sidon_MBA
0.02069967
59.0
30.4
10.6
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0


Levant_Hazor_MLBA
0.02641133
60.6
28.2
11.2
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0


Levant_Beirut_IAII
0.03136026
61.2
27.0
11.0
0.8
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0


Levant_Baqah_BA
0.02617011
61.4
27.6
11.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0


Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
0.02126842
62.2
22.4
15.2
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0

Erikl86
09-24-2021, 02:46 PM
@Woozler, I think this is also relevant to your question:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14484-Could-Western-Jews-(Ash-and-Seph-)-descend-from-Aegeans-and-Levantine-admixture&p=803192&viewfull=1#post803192

I also urge you to read Haber et al. 2020 and Haber et al. 2019, and also Agranat-Tamir et al. 2020.

All of them clearly suggest Late Second Temple Judean Jews wouldn't be pristine MBA Levantine-like.

Just to show some models:

Target: Levant_LBN_Roman
Distance: 1.7924% / 0.01792438
71.4 Levant_Beirut_IAII
15.0 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
13.6 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2

vs. Levant_Beirut_IAII itself:

Target: Levant_Beirut_IAII
Distance: 2.8617% / 0.02861748
99.6 Levant_Abel_IA
0.4 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
0.0 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA

Woozler
09-24-2021, 10:34 PM
But I'm not just using "pristine BA-like Levantine" to model EAJs. I've tried modern samples, using Samaritans and Iraqi Jews to estimate Middle Eastern ancestry, and the algorithm still has a very strong preference for Campania and keeps EAJs at 25% Middle Eastern.




Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine
Distance: 0.4095% / 0.00409471
43.0 Italian_Campania
15.2 Samaritan
12.2 French_Alsace
11.6 HUN_Avar_Period
9.4 Iraqi_Jew
3.8 Polish_Kashubian
3.6 Berber_MAR_TIZ
1.2 Kirghiz

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland
Distance: 0.4823% / 0.00482263
50.2 Italian_Campania
17.8 Samaritan
9.8 French_Alsace
7.0 HUN_Avar_Period
6.6 Iraqi_Jew
4.0 Polish_Kashubian
3.2 Berber_MAR_TIZ
1.4 Kirghiz

I also added Iraqi_Jew (adding Iranian_Jew or Georgian_Jew on top of that did nothing). Also, significant improvement if German is replaced with French_Alsace.

Anyway, as I said, it's a bit pointless. It's perfectly possible to model EAJs with next to no Italian ancestry, raise the Middle Eastern ancestry almost to 38% in some cases and still get a great fit. Models will not help us figure out whether the proximity to Italian_Campania is due to conversions or is simply accidental.

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine
Distance: 0.3934% / 0.00393397
31.0 French_Alsace
19.8 Samaritan
16.8 Iraqi_Jew
13.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
8.2 HUN_Avar_Period
4.6 Berber_MAR_TIZ
3.4 BGR_IA
1.6 Kirghiz
1.2 Kura-Araxes_RUS_Velikent
0.4 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o

Target: Italian_Campania
Distance: 0.6345% / 0.00634521
18.4 BGR_IA
16.6 Samaritan
16.0 French_Alsace
14.6 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
9.6 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Talin
8.0 Iraqi_Jew
6.0 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
4.6 ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA
2.8 Berber_MAR_TIZ
2.8 ITA_Etruscan
0.6 Kura-Araxes_RUS_Velikent


By the way, I've looked at that HUN_Avar_Period person. S/he seems sorta Pannonian (some strange BGR_IA/Empuries 2 and Etruscan type mixture that Slavs, especially Slovenians, also have), in addition to about 20% Scythian_RUS_Urals. I'm not sure what to make of this.

Wait.. maybe I can show that the proximity is coincidental. If we add Rome_Imperial to the mix above, it would do next to nothing for Ashkenazi_Ukraine, but Italian_Campania will DEVOUR it:

Target: Italian_Campania
Distance: 0.4375% / 0.00437494
60.0 ITA_Rome_Imperial
15.6 French_Alsace
7.6 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
5.6 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
3.8 BGR_IA
3.2 Iraqi_Jew
2.2 Samaritan
1.4 Berber_MAR_TIZ
0.6 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Talin

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine
Distance: 0.3934% / 0.00393418
30.6 French_Alsace
18.2 Samaritan
17.6 Iraqi_Jew
12.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
8.2 HUN_Avar_Period
4.6 Berber_MAR_TIZ
3.4 BGR_IA
2.2 ITA_Rome_Imperial
1.6 Kirghiz
1.0 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o
0.6 Kura-Araxes_RUS_Velikent

What's going on?

Woozler
09-24-2021, 11:59 PM
Ok, I've completely changed my mind. For now. There's not much Italian in EAJs.

Could the fact that EAJs are the only Jewish group that needed Iraqi_Jew is be an indication that EAJs do have some medieval "Babylonian" admixture coming straight from the Middle East to Europe? There are stories of rabbis making this trip, I think.

https://i.ibb.co/Qj1yxtf/jewadmix.jpg


You more or less created a workable model for the Roman Imperial Average with the components you are already using. I think your model is overfitting because of using so many overlapping sources from different time periods.

I'm still using the g25 admixture calculator as a magic box - I have no idea what algorithms they use and how reliable they are. But if Rome_Imperial is nothing more to the algorithm than the sum of its Iron Age parts, it's not a very reliable calculator, is it? But so far I haven't seen any problems, so I assume that's not how it works. Overfitting seems to be a problem only when you use samples that are indeed very close in time and/or space.

passenger
09-25-2021, 02:34 AM
Ok, I've completely changed my mind. For now. There's not much Italian in EAJs.

Could the fact that EAJs are the only Jewish group that needed Iraqi_Jew is be an indication that EAJs do have some medieval "Babylonian" admixture coming straight from the Middle East to Europe? There are stories of rabbis making this trip, I think.

https://i.ibb.co/Qj1yxtf/jewadmix.jpg



I'm still using the g25 admixture calculator as a magic box - I have no idea what algorithms they use and how reliable they are. But if Rome_Imperial is nothing more to the algorithm than the sum of its Iron Age parts, it's not a very reliable calculator, is it? But so far I haven't seen any problems, so I assume that's not how it works. Overfitting seems to be a problem only when you use samples that are indeed very close in time and/or space.

It's fine that you're using G25 - whatever limitations it may have - but why are you mixing modern and ancient averages? I don't understand your criteria for choosing some of the averages you've put into this model. There are too many overlapping averages here, and some that don't belong. I'm certainly not a G25 modelling expert myself, but this seems a bit jumbled.

Woozler
09-26-2021, 01:52 AM
It's fine that you're using G25 - whatever limitations it may have - but why are you mixing modern and ancient averages?

If they're distinct enough, they might be useful in offering hints as to, for example, the approximate sources of the European admixture in the Ashkenazim. They're a starting point.


I don't understand your criteria for choosing some of the averages you've put into this model. There are too many overlapping averages here, and some that don't belong. I'm certainly not a G25 modelling expert myself, but this seems a bit jumbled.

It was my desperate attempt to figure out how to make EAJs 35% or even more straightfoward Middle Eastern by avoiding Levantine-rich South European populations. I tried to isolate BGR_IA and HRV_IA and look in Central Europe for some obscure early Medieval highly mixed samples, Germanic-Celtic-Nomadic (HUN_MA_Szolad, or whatever they were called) to account for high BGR_IA in EAJs and HRV_IA in the Sephardics. It wasn't doable. EAJs show high BGR_IA and high Minoan as soon as you stop manipulating the data. That's extremely Crete-like.

Is that it? EAJs are descended to a large extent from a Greek (or similar S Italian) European population with high BGR_IA and high Minoan. The problem is, we're back to square one. These populations are also high in Levant, and have been for a very long time. So I'm back where I started: I just don't see how EAJs could possibly get more than 25% of their ancestry straight from the Middle East. I tried. In the end most of you just may be in denial.

passenger
09-26-2021, 02:16 AM
In the end most of you just may be in denial.

I'll let others pitch in on the issues regarding your specific choices of samples, if they care to. For now, just a warning to please not make assumptions regarding forum members' objectives, biases, etc. You would do well, as some have already advised you, to look over some of the discussions that have already been had on this forum and the many models that have already been experimented with. I'm not sure what your rush is.

I, for one, have no agenda to push regarding specific proportions of ancestral components among Western Jews, Levantine or otherwise. You seem to be imputing an agenda to people with whom you've barely interacted and whose ideas you haven't taken the time to hear out. Rather than hastily cobbling together models to try to prove or disprove specific notions over the space of a couple of days, why not stick around and try to learn from people? Many of the members with whom you've been interacting have been at this for years and did not arrive at their current positions arbitrarily, so it's rather rude to dismiss them without making a sincere attempt to dialogue. If you enjoy G25 models, why not ask others what samples they use and what their criteria are? Besides which, G25 models, as you've realized, are not the be all and end all for answering the types of questions under discussion here.

Woozler
09-26-2021, 02:22 AM
If you enjoy G25 models, why not ask others what samples they use and what their criteria are?

Oh, but I've already seen their models, and I don't have much to disagree with:


These are the results I got:

[1] "distance%=0.0677 / distance=0.000677"

Ashkenazi_Jew:average

Minoan_Lasithi:I0070 42.35
Iran_ChL:I1661 22.05
French_East:French24434 20.60
Minoan_Odigitria:I9131 7.85
Mycenaean:I9041 4.00
Levant_N:I1704 2.40
Iran_ChL:I1665 0.65

Overall Bronze Age Levant - ~25%.
Ancient Aegeans - ~54%
Eastern French (Rhineland French) - 20.6%


That makes perfect sense. Although much of that Bronze Age Levant could be from the Magna Graecia like population that adopted Judaism in Europe.

Erikl86
09-26-2021, 07:51 AM
Oh, but I've already seen their models, and I don't have much to disagree with:



That makes perfect sense. Although much of that Bronze Age Levant could be from the Magna Graecia like population that adopted Judaism in Europe.

That model is extremely old and using K7-Basal calculator, which the creator himself recommends less than G25.

In any case, I've composed a more up to date model. HRV_IA is an Iron Age Balkan, representing Iron Age Macedonians which were instrumental in settling the Hellenistic world after Alexanders' conquests (for instance, Antioch in the Levant was founded and settled by Macedonians and Athenians).

I intentionally included all IA Italic averages as well and asked for the Vahaduo G25 calculator to also show zeros:

46811

As can be seen, both Empuries which represent Anatolian-influenced Greek average (considering that Empuries was supposedly settled by Phocaeans from W. Anatolia) and the best proxy we have for IA Balkanites is favored over N. Italians. The reason why you usually get such high N. European component, which isn't reflected in our uniparentals btw, is that they have high Steppe which is missing if you use only Myceneans or Empuries, but could be explained by using a proxy such as HRV_IA.

This model isn't ideal, sure, as we probably will need actual Late Second Temple Judeans, actual Hellenistic and Roman era Anatolian Greeks, and actual Hellenistic and Roman era mainland Greeks. Even the N. African isn't right - we're using the only less than 3,000 years old N. African proxy we have, but it's from the 8th century, and from the Canary islands rather than from the more likely source of N. African admixture Western Jews have, ie 100 BCE - 100 CE Tunisia or Libya.

But it serves a purpose to show my point - Jews do require substantial amounts of Levantine and substantial amount of Greek to be modeled, and ancient Greeks are favored over ancient Italics.

Riverman
09-29-2021, 11:50 AM
That model is extremely old and using K7-Basal calculator, which the creator himself recommends less than G25.

In any case, I've composed a more up to date model. HRV_IA is an Iron Age Balkan, representing Iron Age Macedonians which were instrumental in settling the Hellenistic world after Alexanders' conquests (for instance, Antioch in the Levant was founded and settled by Macedonians and Athenians).

I intentionally included all IA Italic averages as well and asked for the Vahaduo G25 calculator to also show zeros:

46811

As can be seen, both Empuries which represent Anatolian-influenced Greek average (considering that Empuries was supposedly settled by Phocaeans from W. Anatolia) and the best proxy we have for IA Balkanites is favored over N. Italians. The reason why you usually get such high N. European component, which isn't reflected in our uniparentals btw, is that they have high Steppe which is missing if you use only Myceneans or Empuries, but could be explained by using a proxy such as HRV_IA.

This model isn't ideal, sure, as we probably will need actual Late Second Temple Judeans, actual Hellenistic and Roman era Anatolian Greeks, and actual Hellenistic and Roman era mainland Greeks. Even the N. African isn't right - we're using the only less than 3,000 years old N. African proxy we have, but it's from the 8th century, and from the Canary islands rather than from the more likely source of N. African admixture Western Jews have, ie 100 BCE - 100 CE Tunisia or Libya.

But it serves a purpose to show my point - Jews do require substantial amounts of Levantine and substantial amount of Greek to be modeled, and ancient Greeks are favored over ancient Italics.

Interesting how HRV_IA and Greek Empuries overlap with a tendency towards overfitting, as visible in the Ashkenazi_Germany. I saw some Balkan and Central European R-P312, E-V13 and J-L283 subclades being Jewish or popping up among Jews. Some lineages could be derived from Sea Peoples and Philistines as well, since they also appear in Lebanese and Syrians, have the right age. But others seem to have been proselytes in Europe. I wonder how well the assimilation, the introgression into the Jewish community could be dated.
Possibly Bronze Age:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y125215/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FT350379/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y93543/

Rather recent convert (Antiquity to Medieval?):
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y142743/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z39653/

Could be both prehistoric or more recent:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y33795/

Its definitely worth to take a second look on the uniparentals down to the subclades if discussing the origin of a people, even if it remains somewhat speculative before more data being available.

LukeJaywalker
12-09-2021, 04:53 PM
"Only E-Y6926 has a relatively recent sibling clade, with a UAE match with tmrca of 3100 ybp, but it's the only match with a country name on it, I'd prefer more than one, and UAE is not really in the Levant."

Being "100% Ashkenazic" (according to FTDNA) and of the E-Y6926 lineage, I can answer that pretty definitively though not satisfying to those who wish for Levantine origins. Y6926 did not come from the Levant, though it definitely entered the Jewish line. My assessment is that it came from Anatolians who mixed with Jews as Jews passed north through Asia Minor in the early Diaspora. (And there were specific opportunities for that to happen.)

Y6926 looks very Anatolian and our paternal ancestors in this line more likely built Catalhayuk than anything in Jerusalem -- which does not undercut any claim of Judean origins because Jews picked it up on their way from Judea in Roman times. The UAE samples actually confirm this because the people in UAE who carry Y6926 are not of Semitic origin. They are called "Baloch Arabs" but "Arabs here is a misnomer. They came from Baluchistan across the Persian Gulf, i.e. their homeland is in Pakistan and Iran. They likely acquired Y6926 when Alexander's armies swept through Anatolia and then conquered Baluchistan. Baluchistan continued to be ruled by the Seleucid Empire, based in Anatolia. Y6926 is missing in all "Levantine" groups including Palestinians, Druze, Lebanese, Jordanians, Iraqi and Yemeni Jews.

This highlights the importance of distinguishing between "Middle Eastern," "Levantine," and "Judean." These are not at all the same thing. It is mythological that "Jews" -- the "Nation of Israel" -- derive from only two ancient tribes, those of Israel and Judah. In reality, many different groups were absorbed into the "Jewish people" and that included some Babylonians, remnants of the Phoenicians and Philistines, some Anatolians, Cypriots, and others. Looking for an Israeli territorial label on DNA is bound to disappoint.

MEurope55
12-09-2021, 06:10 PM
"Only E-Y6926 has a relatively recent sibling clade, with a UAE match with tmrca of 3100 ybp, but it's the only match with a country name on it, I'd prefer more than one, and UAE is not really in the Levant."

Being "100% Ashkenazic" (according to FTDNA) and of the E-Y6926 lineage, I can answer that pretty definitively though not satisfying to those who wish for Levantine origins. Y6926 did not come from the Levant, though it definitely entered the Jewish line. My assessment is that it came from Anatolians who mixed with Jews as Jews passed north through Asia Minor in the early Diaspora. (And there were specific opportunities for that to happen.)

Y6926 looks very Anatolian and our paternal ancestors in this line more likely built Catalhayuk than anything in Jerusalem -- which does not undercut any claim of Judean origins because Jews picked it up on their way from Judea in Roman times. The UAE samples actually confirm this because the people in UAE who carry Y6926 are not of Semitic origin. They are called "Baloch Arabs" but "Arabs here is a misnomer. They came from Baluchistan across the Persian Gulf, i.e. their homeland is in Pakistan and Iran. They likely acquired Y6926 when Alexander's armies swept through Anatolia and then conquered Baluchistan. Baluchistan continued to be ruled by the Seleucid Empire, based in Anatolia. Y6926 is missing in all "Levantine" groups including Palestinians, Druze, Lebanese, Jordanians, Iraqi and Yemeni Jews.

This highlights the importance of distinguishing between "Middle Eastern," "Levantine," and "Judean." These are not at all the same thing. It is mythological that "Jews" -- the "Nation of Israel" -- derive from only two ancient tribes, those of Israel and Judah. In reality, many different groups were absorbed into the "Jewish people" and that included some Babylonians, remnants of the Phoenicians and Philistines, some Anatolians, Cypriots, and others. Looking for an Israeli territorial label on DNA is bound to disappoint.

Hi LukeJaywalker,

You are making some pretty bold claims about the origins of this clade. Bold claims require bold supporting evidence. Perhaps you could walk us through the genetic evidence that you believe supports an Anatolian origin. I’ll be honest, I don’t see ANY evidence to support your assertion of a probable Anatolian origin. The idea that many AJ clades originate in the ancient Israelites is also far from mythological. Shared origins in approximately 900-500 bce for a number of founding AJ clades shared across a number of distinct non-AJ Jewish subgroups demonstrates there was, at least in part, a common origin in Israelites.

Flub
01-17-2022, 04:09 PM
I've seen someone (an Ashkenazi) on twitter get an imputed update on DNAgenics from 700,000 snps to 30,000,000 snps.

It went from just about ~50% Levantine, ~30.0 Italian, & ~10.0 British to 73% Italian, ~7.0 Eastern European, & lastly ~20% Levantine.
Now, this is what I could expect(apart from the eastern european ancestry) for a Sicilian or a Southern Italian result. I'd like to point out that models from 50% Levantine and 50% Italian don't quite equate to Western Jewish ancestry, but for instance If I model 50% Samaritan with something northwestern instead like British, Scottish or Orcadian it fits about just well.

passenger
01-17-2022, 05:07 PM
I've seen someone (an Ashkenazi) on twitter get an imputed update on DNAgenics from 700,000 snps to 30,000,000 snps.

It went from just about ~50% Levantine, ~30.0 Italian, & ~10.0 British to 73% Italian, ~7.0 Eastern European, & lastly ~20% Levantine.
Now, this is what I could expect(apart from the eastern european ancestry) for a Sicilian or a Southern Italian result. I'd like to point out that models from 50% Levantine and 50% Italian don't quite equate to Western Jewish ancestry, but for instance If I model 50% Samaritan with something northwestern instead like British, Scottish or Orcadian it fits about just well.

Hello and welcome. I've moved your post to an already existing thread. There are already several threads in our Jewish subsection (https://anthrogenica.com/forumdisplay.php?224-Jewish) which address this issue. It's usually preferable to browse through the existing material and see if your question might fit in with an existing discussion, rather than creating multiple threads on the same topic. Thanks!

Flub
01-17-2022, 05:12 PM
Hello and welcome. I've moved your post to an already existing thread. There are already several threads in our Jewish subsection (https://anthrogenica.com/forumdisplay.php?224-Jewish) which address this issue. It's usually preferable to browse through the existing material and see if your question might fit in with an existing discussion, rather than creating multiple threads on the same topic. Thanks!

Thanks.

Flub
01-19-2022, 02:57 AM
I've seen someone (an Ashkenazi) on twitter get an imputed update on DNAgenics from 700,000 snps to 30,000,000 snps.

It went from just about ~50% Levantine, ~30.0 Italian, & ~10.0 British to 73% Italian, ~7.0 Eastern European, & lastly ~20% Levantine.
Now, this is what I could expect(apart from the eastern european ancestry) for a Sicilian or a Southern Italian result. I'd like to point out that models from 50% Levantine and 50% Italian don't quite equate to Western Jewish ancestry, but for instance If I model 50% Samaritan with something northwestern instead like British, Scottish or Orcadian it fits about just well.

The tester also said that the Jewish percentage went from 95% to 100% meaning the previous estimates were 5% off, weird.

passenger
01-20-2022, 04:55 AM
The tester also said that the Jewish percentage went from 95% to 100% meaning the previous estimates were 5% off, weird.

Could you post a link to these results?

I don't really understand the presumed benefit of their genotype imputation approach in terms of ethnicity estimates. I'd think that this approach would be more useful for a population-wide study than for an individual's results, but if we already have huge quantities of data on population-wide Jewish genomics, I'm not quite sure what the added benefit is here. Maybe someone else can help shed some light on this? At first glance their approach seems to be something of a scam to me: after all, "30 million" SNPs sounds a lot more reliable than 700,000, even if the entire human genome only has 4-5 million readable SNPs, right?

In any case, I'm very skeptical of any results coming out of DNAgenics based on the reports I've seen thus far and the lack of transparency on their website. Also, as we've discussed on this forum, the exact balance between "Levantine" and "Italian" in Western Jews is hard to gauge based on autosomal info alone, since it depends how you define those categories temporally and geographically. For multiple reasons, it's very easy to get an exaggerated Italian result for Western Jews that doesn't necessarily correspond to reality. On the other hand, 50% Levantine (which a marginally well-known Youtube Vlogger also got on his DNAgenics results) also seems pretty exaggerated to me. Neither of the breakdowns you mentioned above seem quite accurate. I think a 50% overall Middle Eastern and North African percentage is not out of the question for Ashkenazim, if you lump together all their Berber, Levantine and Mesopotamian/Caucasian ancestry, but 50% Levantine alone seems like a stretch, even if you include both the Levantine portion from Ancient Judea and that which may have been picked up elsewhere in the Eastern Mediterranean Diaspora. Nobody will be able to give you a definitive answer though.

Flub
01-20-2022, 05:07 AM
Could you post a link to these results?

I don't really understand the presumed benefit of their genotype imputation approach in terms of ethnicity estimates. I'd think that this approach would be more useful for a population-wide study than for an individual's results, but if we already have huge quantities of data on population-wide Jewish genomics, I'm not quite sure what the added benefit is here. Maybe someone else can help shed some light on this? At first glance their approach seems to be something of a scam to me: after all, "30 million" SNPs sounds a lot more reliable than 700,000, even if the entire human genome only has 4-5 million readable SNPs, right?

In any case, I'm very skeptical of any results coming out of DNAgenics based on the reports I've seen thus far and the lack of transparency on their website. Also, as we've discussed on this forum, the exact balance between "Levantine" and "Italian" in Western Jews is hard to gauge based on autosomal info alone, since it depends how you define those categories temporally and geographically. For multiple reasons, it's very easy to get an exaggerated Italian result for Western Jews that doesn't necessarily correspond to reality. On the other hand, 50% Levantine (which a marginally well-known Youtube Vlogger also got on his DNAgenics results) also seems pretty exaggerated to me. Neither of the breakdowns you mentioned above seem quite accurate. I think a 50% overall Middle Eastern and North African percentage is not out of the question for Ashkenazim, if you lump together all their Berber, Levantine and Mesopotamian/Caucasian ancestry, but 50% Levantine alone seems like a stretch, even if you include both the Levantine portion from Ancient Judea and that which may have been picked up elsewhere in the Eastern Mediterranean Diaspora. Nobody will be able to give you a definitive answer though.
https://twitter.com/JoshMarks78/status/1389629951842861062?s=20
Here.

StillWater
01-20-2022, 05:09 AM
https://twitter.com/JoshMarks78/status/1389629951842861062?s=20
Here.

Why does this result at all matter?

passenger
01-20-2022, 05:13 AM
https://twitter.com/JoshMarks78/status/1389629951842861062?s=20
Here.

Same person I had in mind.

Flub
01-20-2022, 05:15 AM
Why does this result at all matter?

Answering the user above me, and.. questioning the accuracy of the "50% Levantine and 50% Italian" premise that I've been hearing around.

passenger
01-20-2022, 05:22 AM
Answering the user above me, and.. questioning the accuracy of the "50% Levantine and 50% Italian" premise that I've been hearing around.

It's definitely not 50% Levantine and 50% Italian, that's for sure. That's a gross oversimplification, though not as far off as some other theories that get thrown around. Southern European (whether Italian or Greek) and Levantine are by far the two largest components for Ashkenazim, but there are also components from elsewhere in the Middle East and North Africa, plus Central and Eastern Europe (with some variation depending on precise background).

Levantine_Viking
01-23-2022, 07:42 PM
Answering the user above me, and.. questioning the accuracy of the "50% Levantine and 50% Italian" premise that I've been hearing around.

Italians are very mixed from the imperial roman era so samples will largely overlap. Ashkenazi ews in general are about 45-65 percent middle east north African, with traces of it coming from berber dna as well as mesopotamian dna.

Gentica277282
01-23-2022, 08:05 PM
Italians are very mixed from the imperial roman era so samples will largely overlap. Ashkenazi ews in general are about 45-65 percent middle east north African, with traces of it coming from berber dna as well as mesopotamian dna.

45 to 65 percent is way too high for Ashkenazi Jews, if you run them from the data sheet you can see that. 65 percent and above is Samaritan levels

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_9
Distance: 1.5735% / 0.01573504
49.8 Early_European_Farmer
27.6 Steppe_Pastoralist
11.4 Levant_Natufian
10.4 Iran_Neolithic
0.8 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_8
Distance: 1.4198% / 0.01419818
48.0 Early_European_Farmer
30.8 Steppe_Pastoralist
8.8 Levant_Natufian
8.6 Iran_Neolithic
2.2 Iberomaurusian
1.6 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_7
Distance: 1.1121% / 0.01112067
47.4 Early_European_Farmer
26.0 Steppe_Pastoralist
12.0 Levant_Natufian
10.0 Iran_Neolithic
2.6 Iberomaurusian
1.4 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
0.6 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_5
Distance: 1.7606% / 0.01760585
50.2 Early_European_Farmer
29.4 Steppe_Pastoralist
10.0 Levant_Natufian
7.8 Iran_Neolithic
1.6 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
1.0 Iberomaurusian

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_4
Distance: 1.8870% / 0.01886972
50.6 Early_European_Farmer
25.6 Steppe_Pastoralist
11.2 Levant_Natufian
9.0 Iran_Neolithic
2.2 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
1.4 Iberomaurusian

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_3
Distance: 1.2433% / 0.01243320
49.0 Early_European_Farmer
26.4 Steppe_Pastoralist
10.4 Levant_Natufian
8.6 Iran_Neolithic
3.4 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
1.6 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
0.6 Iberomaurusian

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_21
Distance: 1.9369% / 0.01936884
55.4 Early_European_Farmer
23.8 Steppe_Pastoralist
10.6 Iran_Neolithic
6.0 Levant_Natufian
3.0 Iberomaurusian
1.2 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_20
Distance: 1.4510% / 0.01450957
46.2 Early_European_Farmer
25.8 Steppe_Pastoralist
13.8 Levant_Natufian
11.6 Iran_Neolithic
1.2 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
0.8 Iberomaurusian
0.6 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_2
Distance: 1.9342% / 0.01934231
46.4 Early_European_Farmer
28.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
11.2 Iran_Neolithic
10.0 Levant_Natufian
2.4 Iberomaurusian
1.0 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
0.6 Ancient_American
0.2 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_19
Distance: 1.6682% / 0.01668159
44.6 Early_European_Farmer
33.4 Steppe_Pastoralist
14.0 Levant_Natufian
5.6 Iran_Neolithic
1.2 Iberomaurusian
0.8 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
0.4 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_18
Distance: 2.2178% / 0.02217783
47.2 Early_European_Farmer
27.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
12.4 Levant_Natufian
9.4 Iran_Neolithic
1.6 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
1.4 Iberomaurusian
0.8 Western_Hunter-Gatherer

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_17
Distance: 1.6518% / 0.01651760
52.2 Early_European_Farmer
26.8 Steppe_Pastoralist
11.2 Iran_Neolithic
6.8 Levant_Natufian
3.0 Iberomaurusian

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_16
Distance: 2.1584% / 0.02158385
51.2 Early_European_Farmer
25.4 Steppe_Pastoralist
12.8 Levant_Natufian
6.6 Iran_Neolithic
1.6 Iberomaurusian
1.6 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
0.8 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_15
Distance: 1.4055% / 0.01405474
48.2 Early_European_Farmer
26.4 Steppe_Pastoralist
12.8 Levant_Natufian
6.6 Iran_Neolithic
3.6 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
1.4 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
0.6 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
0.4 Iberomaurusian

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_14
Distance: 1.8903% / 0.01890304
48.4 Early_European_Farmer
26.0 Steppe_Pastoralist
11.6 Levant_Natufian
10.8 Iran_Neolithic
1.8 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
0.8 Iberomaurusian
0.6 Western_Hunter-Gatherer

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_13
Distance: 1.8082% / 0.01808183
48.6 Early_European_Farmer
27.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
12.2 Iran_Neolithic
8.4 Levant_Natufian
3.6 Iberomaurusian

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_12
Distance: 0.9715% / 0.00971471
48.4 Early_European_Farmer
28.0 Steppe_Pastoralist
12.8 Levant_Natufian
7.2 Iran_Neolithic
2.4 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
1.0 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
0.2 Eastern_Hunter-Gatherer

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_11
Distance: 2.1973% / 0.02197305
45.2 Early_European_Farmer
27.0 Steppe_Pastoralist
15.8 Levant_Natufian
9.4 Iran_Neolithic
1.4 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
1.2 Iberomaurusian

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_10
Distance: 1.6912% / 0.01691224
47.4 Early_European_Farmer
27.8 Steppe_Pastoralist
11.2 Iran_Neolithic
10.8 Levant_Natufian
1.2 Iberomaurusian
1.2 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
0.4 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_1
Distance: 1.6390% / 0.01638960
52.2 Early_European_Farmer
23.6 Steppe_Pastoralist
10.8 Levant_Natufian
9.6 Iran_Neolithic
2.8 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
0.4 Ancient_Iberian_Hunter-Gatherer
0.4 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
0.2 Iberomaurusian

Target: Ashkenazi_Russia:Ashk_RU_RU_9
Distance: 2.0764% / 0.02076365
48.0 Early_European_Farmer
28.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
12.8 Levant_Natufian
8.2 Iran_Neolithic
2.6 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
0.2 Iberomaurusian

Target: Ashkenazi_Russia:Ashk_RU_RU_8
Distance: 1.5751% / 0.01575135
49.0 Early_European_Farmer
28.4 Steppe_Pastoralist
9.8 Iran_Neolithic
8.2 Levant_Natufian
1.8 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
1.6 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
1.2 Iberomaurusian

Target: Ashkenazi_Russia:Ashk_RU_RU_6
Distance: 1.9796% / 0.01979587
52.8 Early_European_Farmer
26.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
11.4 Iran_Neolithic
5.0 Levant_Natufian
3.0 Iberomaurusian
1.6 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

Target: Ashkenazi_Russia:Ashk_RU_RU_5
Distance: 1.5706% / 0.01570571
52.8 Early_European_Farmer
29.4 Steppe_Pastoralist
7.4 Iran_Neolithic
6.0 Levant_Natufian
2.2 Iberomaurusian
1.2 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
1.0 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

Target: Ashkenazi_Russia:Ashk_RU_RU_4
Distance: 1.3791% / 0.01379145
46.8 Early_European_Farmer
24.0 Steppe_Pastoralist
12.8 Iran_Neolithic
12.0 Levant_Natufian
2.0 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
1.6 Iberomaurusian
0.8 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer

Target: Ashkenazi_Russia:Ashk_RU_RU_3
Distance: 1.5852% / 0.01585175
46.0 Early_European_Farmer
31.4 Steppe_Pastoralist
15.2 Levant_Natufian
5.0 Iran_Neolithic
2.0 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
0.4 Iberomaurusian

Target: Ashkenazi_Russia:Ashk_RU_RU_2
Distance: 1.8377% / 0.01837663
46.6 Early_European_Farmer
30.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
12.2 Levant_Natufian
10.2 Iran_Neolithic
0.6 Iberomaurusian
0.2 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

Target: Ashkenazi_Russia:Ashk_RU_RU_11
Distance: 1.3817% / 0.01381729
52.6 Early_European_Farmer
25.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
8.8 Levant_Natufian
8.4 Iran_Neolithic
2.4 Iberomaurusian
1.8 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
0.4 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
0.4 Scandinavian_Hunter-Gatherer

Target: Ashkenazi_Russia:Ashk_RU_RU_10
Distance: 1.5332% / 0.01533162
44.4 Early_European_Farmer
28.4 Steppe_Pastoralist
13.4 Levant_Natufian
11.0 Iran_Neolithic
1.6 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
0.8 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
0.4 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer

Target: Ashkenazi_Russia:Ashk_RU_RU_1
Distance: 1.5858% / 0.01585754
47.2 Early_European_Farmer
26.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
13.2 Iran_Neolithic
11.2 Levant_Natufian
1.4 Iberomaurusian
0.8 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_9
Distance: 2.1225% / 0.02122525
48.4 Early_European_Farmer
27.8 Steppe_Pastoralist
12.6 Levant_Natufian
9.4 Iran_Neolithic
1.2 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
0.4 Iberomaurusian
0.2 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_8
Distance: 2.1869% / 0.02186902
46.2 Early_European_Farmer
24.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
14.6 Levant_Natufian
11.4 Iran_Neolithic
1.4 Ancient_Iberian_Hunter-Gatherer
1.0 Iberomaurusian
0.8 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
0.4 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_6
Distance: 1.7137% / 0.01713698
50.2 Early_European_Farmer
26.4 Steppe_Pastoralist
10.6 Levant_Natufian
9.8 Iran_Neolithic
2.0 Iberomaurusian
1.0 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_5
Distance: 1.5976% / 0.01597612
48.4 Early_European_Farmer
25.6 Steppe_Pastoralist
12.6 Levant_Natufian
11.8 Iran_Neolithic
1.6 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_4
Distance: 1.7339% / 0.01733856
48.6 Early_European_Farmer
31.4 Steppe_Pastoralist
11.4 Levant_Natufian
6.0 Iran_Neolithic
1.8 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
0.6 Iberomaurusian
0.2 Ancient_Iberian_Hunter-Gatherer

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_29
Distance: 1.4927% / 0.01492737
51.8 Early_European_Farmer
27.0 Steppe_Pastoralist
9.6 Iran_Neolithic
8.4 Levant_Natufian
3.0 Iberomaurusian
0.2 Ancient_American

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_28
Distance: 1.9424% / 0.01942399
51.8 Early_European_Farmer
22.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
14.0 Iran_Neolithic
9.0 Levant_Natufian
3.0 Iberomaurusian

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_27
Distance: 1.6137% / 0.01613661
49.6 Early_European_Farmer
21.4 Steppe_Pastoralist
16.2 Levant_Natufian
8.0 Iran_Neolithic
3.6 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
0.6 Iberomaurusian
0.6 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_26
Distance: 1.8375% / 0.01837461
50.6 Early_European_Farmer
24.4 Steppe_Pastoralist
9.2 Levant_Natufian
7.2 Iran_Neolithic
4.0 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
3.4 Iberomaurusian
1.2 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_25
Distance: 1.9547% / 0.01954696
47.8 Early_European_Farmer
29.8 Steppe_Pastoralist
13.4 Levant_Natufian
5.2 Iran_Neolithic
3.0 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
0.8 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_24
Distance: 1.9188% / 0.01918849
45.4 Early_European_Farmer
26.0 Steppe_Pastoralist
15.4 Levant_Natufian
9.2 Iran_Neolithic
1.8 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
1.6 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
0.6 Iberomaurusian

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_23
Distance: 1.6752% / 0.01675177
46.8 Early_European_Farmer
28.4 Steppe_Pastoralist
13.6 Levant_Natufian
8.4 Iran_Neolithic
1.2 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
1.0 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
0.6 Iberomaurusian

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_22
Distance: 1.4078% / 0.01407825
54.0 Early_European_Farmer
22.6 Steppe_Pastoralist
11.4 Iran_Neolithic
9.2 Levant_Natufian
1.6 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
1.2 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_21
Distance: 1.7825% / 0.01782534
48.4 Early_European_Farmer
25.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
13.6 Levant_Natufian
12.2 Iran_Neolithic
0.6 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_2
Distance: 1.7904% / 0.01790439
46.0 Early_European_Farmer
23.6 Steppe_Pastoralist
15.0 Levant_Natufian
7.8 Iran_Neolithic
3.8 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
2.0 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
1.2 Iberomaurusian
0.6 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_18
Distance: 1.5613% / 0.01561267
48.8 Early_European_Farmer
25.0 Steppe_Pastoralist
10.2 Iran_Neolithic
8.6 Levant_Natufian
4.0 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
1.8 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
1.6 Iberomaurusian

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_16
Distance: 1.9623% / 0.01962260
46.2 Early_European_Farmer
24.8 Steppe_Pastoralist
17.4 Levant_Natufian
5.2 Iran_Neolithic
4.8 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
1.0 Iberomaurusian
0.6 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_15
Distance: 1.9108% / 0.01910824
48.4 Early_European_Farmer
27.8 Steppe_Pastoralist
10.8 Levant_Natufian
8.0 Iran_Neolithic
4.0 Iberomaurusian
1.0 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_14
Distance: 1.4514% / 0.01451423
47.6 Early_European_Farmer
25.8 Steppe_Pastoralist
14.8 Levant_Natufian
10.2 Iran_Neolithic
0.8 Iberomaurusian
0.8 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_13
Distance: 2.0799% / 0.02079927
50.8 Early_European_Farmer
25.6 Steppe_Pastoralist
10.2 Iran_Neolithic
8.6 Levant_Natufian
3.8 Iberomaurusian
1.0 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_12
Distance: 1.5767% / 0.01576714
48.8 Early_European_Farmer
19.4 Steppe_Pastoralist
14.2 Iran_Neolithic
13.0 Levant_Natufian
2.6 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
1.4 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
0.6 Iberomaurusian

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_11
Distance: 1.6797% / 0.01679688
47.6 Early_European_Farmer
29.8 Steppe_Pastoralist
12.2 Levant_Natufian
7.8 Iran_Neolithic
1.2 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
0.8 Iberomaurusian
0.6 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_10
Distance: 1.4585% / 0.01458466
49.2 Early_European_Farmer
21.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
14.2 Iran_Neolithic
11.6 Levant_Natufian
2.4 Eastern_Hunter-Gatherer
1.0 Iberomaurusian
0.4 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland:Ashk_PL_PL_1
Distance: 1.7373% / 0.01737255
48.8 Early_European_Farmer
27.0 Steppe_Pastoralist
9.0 Levant_Natufian
8.6 Iran_Neolithic
2.4 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
2.2 Iberomaurusian
2.0 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

Target: Ashkenazi_Lithuania:Ashk_LT_LT_9
Distance: 1.4453% / 0.01445318
49.8 Early_European_Farmer
25.6 Steppe_Pastoralist
11.8 Iran_Neolithic
10.0 Levant_Natufian
2.0 Iberomaurusian
0.8 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

Target: Ashkenazi_Lithuania:Ashk_LT_LT_8
Distance: 1.6196% / 0.01619606
45.4 Early_European_Farmer
26.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
15.8 Levant_Natufian
12.0 Iran_Neolithic
0.6 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

Target: Ashkenazi_Lithuania:Ashk_LT_LT_7
Distance: 1.8425% / 0.01842506
49.2 Early_European_Farmer
22.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
12.6 Iran_Neolithic
8.6 Levant_Natufian
3.0 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
2.2 Iberomaurusian
1.8 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
0.4 Ancient_Iberian_Hunter-Gatherer

Target: Ashkenazi_Lithuania:Ashk_LT_LT_6
Distance: 1.8349% / 0.01834941
49.8 Early_European_Farmer
26.4 Steppe_Pastoralist
11.4 Iran_Neolithic
9.2 Levant_Natufian
1.4 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
1.4 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
0.4 Iberomaurusian

Target: Ashkenazi_Lithuania:Ashk_LT_LT_5
Distance: 1.7818% / 0.01781821
49.2 Early_European_Farmer
25.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
11.6 Iran_Neolithic
11.2 Levant_Natufian
2.4 Iberomaurusian
0.4 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

Target: Ashkenazi_Lithuania:Ashk_LT_LT_4
Distance: 2.3502% / 0.02350200
48.4 Early_European_Farmer
25.6 Steppe_Pastoralist
14.2 Levant_Natufian
10.0 Iran_Neolithic
1.8 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

Target: Ashkenazi_Lithuania:Ashk_LT_LT_3
Distance: 1.4072% / 0.01407181
49.6 Early_European_Farmer
28.4 Steppe_Pastoralist
11.4 Levant_Natufian
5.2 Iran_Neolithic
4.0 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
1.0 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
0.4 Iberomaurusian

Target: Ashkenazi_Lithuania:Ashk_LT_LT_2
Distance: 1.7786% / 0.01778554
50.4 Early_European_Farmer
23.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
12.4 Iran_Neolithic
7.0 Levant_Natufian
2.6 Iberomaurusian
2.0 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
1.6 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
0.8 Western_Hunter-Gatherer

Target: Ashkenazi_Lithuania:Ashk_LT_LT_11
Distance: 1.1359% / 0.01135859
48.6 Early_European_Farmer
25.0 Steppe_Pastoralist
11.4 Levant_Natufian
11.4 Iran_Neolithic
2.0 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
1.6 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

Target: Ashkenazi_Lithuania:Ashk_LT_LT_10
Distance: 1.0194% / 0.01019440
49.0 Early_European_Farmer
26.8 Steppe_Pastoralist
10.8 Iran_Neolithic
10.0 Levant_Natufian
1.4 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
1.4 Iberomaurusian
0.6 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

Target: Ashkenazi_Lithuania:Ashk_LT_LT_1
Distance: 1.4854% / 0.01485391
45.6 Early_European_Farmer
29.0 Steppe_Pastoralist
12.2 Levant_Natufian
10.2 Iran_Neolithic
1.6 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
1.4 Iberomaurusian

Target: Ashkenazi_Germany:Ashk_DE_DE_9
Distance: 1.7564% / 0.01756444
50.4 Early_European_Farmer
20.4 Steppe_Pastoralist
11.6 Iran_Neolithic
10.4 Levant_Natufian
4.4 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
2.8 Iberomaurusian

Target: Ashkenazi_Germany:Ashk_DE_DE_8
Distance: 1.5071% / 0.01507063
53.4 Early_European_Farmer
24.4 Steppe_Pastoralist
10.6 Iran_Neolithic
10.2 Levant_Natufian
1.4 Iberomaurusian

Target: Ashkenazi_Germany:Ashk_DE_DE_6
Distance: 1.1655% / 0.01165467
51.8 Early_European_Farmer
20.6 Steppe_Pastoralist
10.6 Iran_Neolithic
9.6 Levant_Natufian
3.8 Iberomaurusian
3.6 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer

Target: Ashkenazi_Germany:Ashk_DE_DE_5
Distance: 1.5295% / 0.01529533
48.6 Early_European_Farmer
23.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
14.2 Levant_Natufian
6.0 Iran_Neolithic
4.8 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
2.0 Iberomaurusian
1.2 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

Target: Ashkenazi_Germany:Ashk_DE_DE_4
Distance: 1.7427% / 0.01742709
50.6 Early_European_Farmer
18.8 Steppe_Pastoralist
15.2 Levant_Natufian
13.8 Iran_Neolithic
1.2 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
0.4 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer

Target: Ashkenazi_Germany:Ashk_DE_DE_3
Distance: 1.8032% / 0.01803248
51.6 Early_European_Farmer
21.6 Steppe_Pastoralist
13.0 Levant_Natufian
12.6 Iran_Neolithic
1.2 Iberomaurusian

Target: Ashkenazi_Germany:Ashk_DE_DE_2
Distance: 1.0717% / 0.01071671
49.8 Early_European_Farmer
24.6 Steppe_Pastoralist
12.8 Levant_Natufian
12.6 Iran_Neolithic
0.2 Iberomaurusian

Target: Ashkenazi_Germany:Ashk_DE_DE_11
Distance: 1.7081% / 0.01708078
48.0 Early_European_Farmer
21.4 Steppe_Pastoralist
16.0 Levant_Natufian
11.0 Iran_Neolithic
2.2 Iberomaurusian
0.8 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
0.6 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

Target: Ashkenazi_Germany:Ashk_DE_DE_10
Distance: 1.4701% / 0.01470062
50.0 Early_European_Farmer
25.4 Steppe_Pastoralist
13.8 Levant_Natufian
9.8 Iran_Neolithic
1.0 Iberomaurusian

Target: Ashkenazi_Germany:Ashk_DE_DE_1
Distance: 1.4961% / 0.01496116
50.2 Early_European_Farmer
18.0 Steppe_Pastoralist
16.2 Levant_Natufian
12.4 Iran_Neolithic
3.2 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer

Target: Ashkenazi_Belarussia:Ashk_BY_BY_9
Distance: 1.9537% / 0.01953711
44.0 Early_European_Farmer
23.8 Steppe_Pastoralist
17.4 Levant_Natufian
10.8 Iran_Neolithic
2.6 Ancient_Iberian_Hunter-Gatherer
1.4 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

Target: Ashkenazi_Belarussia:Ashk_BY_BY_8
Distance: 1.7215% / 0.01721544
48.6 Early_European_Farmer
26.6 Steppe_Pastoralist
9.6 Levant_Natufian
8.8 Iran_Neolithic
3.0 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
2.4 Iberomaurusian
1.0 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

Target: Ashkenazi_Belarussia:Ashk_BY_BY_7
Distance: 1.1460% / 0.01146046
50.2 Early_European_Farmer
24.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
13.2 Iran_Neolithic
8.4 Levant_Natufian
2.0 Eastern_Hunter-Gatherer
1.8 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
0.2 Iberomaurusian

Target: Ashkenazi_Belarussia:Ashk_BY_BY_6
Distance: 1.2744% / 0.01274410
51.6 Early_European_Farmer
24.8 Steppe_Pastoralist
8.4 Iran_Neolithic
6.4 Levant_Natufian
3.8 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
2.4 Iberomaurusian
1.6 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
1.0 Western_Hunter-Gatherer

Target: Ashkenazi_Belarussia:Ashk_BY_BY_5
Distance: 2.1053% / 0.02105271
52.4 Early_European_Farmer
27.0 Steppe_Pastoralist
9.4 Levant_Natufian
8.0 Iran_Neolithic
2.0 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
1.2 Iberomaurusian

Target: Ashkenazi_Belarussia:Ashk_BY_BY_4
Distance: 1.2458% / 0.01245810
49.2 Early_European_Farmer
30.4 Steppe_Pastoralist
10.2 Levant_Natufian
9.0 Iran_Neolithic
1.0 Iberomaurusian
0.2 Western_Hunter-Gatherer

Target: Ashkenazi_Belarussia:Ashk_BY_BY_3
Distance: 1.9959% / 0.01995927
45.0 Early_European_Farmer
27.6 Steppe_Pastoralist
16.4 Levant_Natufian
9.8 Iran_Neolithic
1.2 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

Target: Ashkenazi_Belarussia:Ashk_BY_BY_2
Distance: 0.9821% / 0.00982062
45.2 Early_European_Farmer
24.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
14.6 Levant_Natufian
14.0 Iran_Neolithic
1.6 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
0.4 Iberomaurusian

Target: Ashkenazi_Belarussia:Ashk_BY_BY_13
Distance: 1.4045% / 0.01404525
49.0 Early_European_Farmer
24.8 Steppe_Pastoralist
12.2 Levant_Natufian
7.2 Iran_Neolithic
5.0 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
1.2 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
0.6 Iberomaurusian

Target: Ashkenazi_Belarussia:Ashk_BY_BY_12
Distance: 0.8234% / 0.00823376
52.0 Early_European_Farmer
27.4 Steppe_Pastoralist
11.2 Iran_Neolithic
6.8 Levant_Natufian
1.6 Iberomaurusian
1.0 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

Target: Ashkenazi_Belarussia:Ashk_BY_BY_11
Distance: 1.0682% / 0.01068154
51.2 Early_European_Farmer
25.0 Steppe_Pastoralist
12.2 Levant_Natufian
10.0 Iran_Neolithic
1.2 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
0.4 Iberomaurusian

Target: Ashkenazi_Belarussia:Ashk_BY_BY_10
Distance: 1.2423% / 0.01242252
50.2 Early_European_Farmer
29.0 Steppe_Pastoralist
10.2 Levant_Natufian
7.8 Iran_Neolithic
1.8 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
0.8 Iberomaurusian
0.2 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer

Target: Ashkenazi_Belarussia:Ashk_BY_BY_1
Distance: 1.5907% / 0.01590708
50.0 Early_European_Farmer
27.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
11.4 Levant_Natufian
10.4 Iran_Neolithic
0.8 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
0.2 Western_Hunter-Gatherer

Target: Ashkenazi_Russia:Ashk_RU_RU_4
Distance: 1.3806% / 0.01380574
46.8 Early_European_Farmer
24.0 Steppe_Pastoralist
12.8 Iran_Neolithic
12.0 Levant_Natufian
1.8 Iberomaurusian
1.8 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
0.8 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_17
Distance: 1.6518% / 0.01651760
52.2 Early_European_Farmer
26.8 Steppe_Pastoralist
11.2 Iran_Neolithic
6.8 Levant_Natufian
3.0 Iberomaurusian

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_18
Distance: 2.2178% / 0.02217783
47.2 Early_European_Farmer
27.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
12.4 Levant_Natufian
9.4 Iran_Neolithic
1.6 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
1.4 Iberomaurusian
0.8 Western_Hunter-Gatherer

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_21
Distance: 1.9369% / 0.01936884
55.4 Early_European_Farmer
23.8 Steppe_Pastoralist
10.6 Iran_Neolithic
6.0 Levant_Natufian
3.0 Iberomaurusian
1.2 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_5
Distance: 1.7603% / 0.01760285
50.2 Early_European_Farmer
29.4 Steppe_Pastoralist
10.0 Levant_Natufian
7.8 Iran_Neolithic
1.6 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
1.0 Iberomaurusian

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_4
Distance: 1.8870% / 0.01886961
50.8 Early_European_Farmer
25.4 Steppe_Pastoralist
11.4 Levant_Natufian
9.0 Iran_Neolithic
2.2 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
1.2 Iberomaurusian

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_7
Distance: 1.1186% / 0.01118631
47.2 Early_European_Farmer
26.0 Steppe_Pastoralist
12.4 Levant_Natufian
10.2 Iran_Neolithic
2.4 Iberomaurusian
1.2 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
0.6 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_8
Distance: 1.4202% / 0.01420208
48.0 Early_European_Farmer
30.8 Steppe_Pastoralist
8.6 Iran_Neolithic
8.6 Levant_Natufian
2.4 Iberomaurusian
1.6 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_9
Distance: 1.5735% / 0.01573504
49.8 Early_European_Farmer
27.6 Steppe_Pastoralist
11.4 Levant_Natufian
10.4 Iran_Neolithic
0.8 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

Levantine_Viking
01-23-2022, 08:25 PM
Italians are very mixed from the imperial roman era so samples will largely overlap. Ashkenazi ews in general are about 45-65 percent middle east north African, with traces of it coming from berber dna as well as mesopotamian dna.

Going off of Neolithic Models is not very genuine, because every Mediterranean country has Neolithic Farmer DNA, and most mesopotamians also have steppe - however Ashkenazi derived both the steppe and farmer dna from both europe and the middle east. Instead, go by iron and bronze ages, which is the relevant mena markets most present in Ashkenazim.

This is the ashkenazi model from illustrativedna.com based on my uncle's (mother's brother) G25 coords. The second run is my mom. They are both just under 50 percent middle east / north african from LBA-IA.

Gentica277282
01-23-2022, 08:32 PM
Going off of Neolithic Models is not very genuine, because every Mediterranean country has Neolithic Farmer DNA, and most mesopotamians also have steppe - however Ashkenazi derived both the steppe and farmer dna from both europe and the middle east. Instead, go by iron and bronze ages, which is the relevant mena markets most present in Ashkenazim.

This is the ashkenazi model from illustrativedna.com based on my uncle's (mother's brother) G25 coords. The second run is my mom. They are both just under 50 percent middle east / north african from LBA-IA.

This is not about everyone scoring eef my friend, Ashkenazis would score way higher natufian and Iranian if they was anywhere near the amount you said. It’s impossible for them to be 45 to 65 percent Levantine apart from outliers

Everyone knows illustrative dna is known for dodgy models.

Eef+steppe with some Levantine is what ashkenazi are, your steppe is well above average for Levantine populations

Levantine_Viking
01-23-2022, 08:43 PM
This is not about everyone scoring eef my friend, Ashkenazis would score way higher natufian and Iranian if they was anywhere near the amount you said. It’s impossible for them to be 45 to 65 percent Levantine apart from outliers

Everyone knows illustrative dna is known for dodgy models.

Eef+steppe with some Levantine is what ashkenazi are, your steppe is well above average for Levantine populations

"Way above levantine populations "
That's normal considering the fact ashkenazi Jews are roughly half European, the same reason their farmer dna is elevated as well. No one said they are full middle mideastern, but they are around half non-european, give or take 10 percent above or below thay half, with majority coming from caananite dna and the rest berber/mesopotamian input.

The models are not "dodgy" as they are using g25 populations based on historic migrations with good distances.

Levantines are a mix of eef plus natufian

Gentica277282
01-23-2022, 08:44 PM
Anyway last word on the topic I would say Ashkenazi are around 30-40 percent Levantine with anyone over that an outlier

Ajeje Brazorf
01-23-2022, 08:56 PM
The percentage depends mainly on which proxy is used as the Levantine ancestry of Ashkenazi Jews. With Samaritans: 38%, with Lebanese Christians: 50%, with Roman period Lebanese: 44%, and so on.

Levantine_Viking
01-23-2022, 09:01 PM
Anyway last word on the topic I would say Ashkenazi are around 30-40 percent Levantine with anyone over that an outlier

I think this is rapidly false. you are using neolithic migrations to prove your point which is impossible

see why

Gentica277282
01-23-2022, 09:36 PM
I think this is rapidly false. you are using neolithic migrations to prove your point which is impossible

see why

That model is not great. You can use Neolithic migrations to prove this because you have early Levantine farmers which can show continuity through the region, are you saying it early Levantine farmers are not relevant?

It’s the same way North Africans have ibm admixture to show continuity in the region

Gentica277282
01-23-2022, 09:40 PM
The percentage depends mainly on which proxy is used as the Levantine ancestry of Ashkenazi Jews. With Samaritans: 38%, with Lebanese Christians: 50%, with Roman period Lebanese: 44%, and so on.

Why would you use a modern proxy to determine Levantine within Ashkenazi Jews that makes no sense

At the end of the day nobody can take away from there levantinism but let’s be serious about the percentages thrown around

Levantine_Viking
01-23-2022, 09:50 PM
Why would you use a modern proxy to determine Levantine within Ashkenazi Jews that makes no sense

At the end of the day nobody can take away from there levantinism but let’s be serious about the percentages thrown around

Because these are populations with similar admixture to levantines in the early iron age period, relevant for ashkenazim. For iron age, ashkenazim are around half European and half middle Eastern/North African.

Levantine_Viking
01-23-2022, 09:52 PM
I think this is rapidly false. you are using neolithic migrations to prove your point which is impossible

see why

It's a good model to discuss when ashkenazim have about half the Iran and half the levantine as modern levantines, which is why they look like half of what modern levantines do with some additional north Africa.

Ajeje Brazorf
01-23-2022, 09:56 PM
Why would you use a modern proxy to determine Levantine within Ashkenazi Jews that makes no sense

At the end of the day nobody can take away from there levantinism but let’s be serious about the percentages thrown around

Samaritans of all people have the most continuity with ancient populations, there is good reason to believe that in the 2nd century AD Judeans had a profile similar to theirs. Then I honestly don't know, we don't have ancient DNA from Judea from that period.


Distance to: Samaritan
0.02163410 Levant_Sidon_MBA
0.02287706 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
0.02463971 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
0.02483747 Levant_Beirut_IAIII

Levantine_Viking
01-23-2022, 11:16 PM
Samaritans of all people have the most continuity with ancient populations, there is good reason to believe that in the 2nd century AD Judeans had a profile similar to theirs. Then I honestly don't know, we don't have ancient DNA from Judea from that period.


Distance to: Samaritan
0.02163410 Levant_Sidon_MBA
0.02287706 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
0.02463971 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
0.02483747 Levant_Beirut_IAIII

This is true. Lebanese Christians also are very similar to samaritans.

Ajeje Brazorf
01-23-2022, 11:26 PM
This is true. Lebanese Christians also are very similar to samaritans.

Christian Lebanese are more shifted towards Europe, they have less Levant_N, more EEF and Steppe, this is also why if they are used as proxy the percentage explodes reaching 50%.

Levantine_Viking
01-23-2022, 11:49 PM
Christian Lebanese are more shifted towards Europe, they have less Levant_N, more EEF and Steppe, this is also why if they are used as proxy the percentage explodes reaching 50%.

I would not say lebanese christians are shifted more towards europe but more towards anatolia and mesopotamia.

Here is the breakdown for ashkenazim in the iron age using my mom and her brother:
Target: Mom_scaled
Distance: 1.6988% / 0.01698759
21.2 Aegeon
20.0 Levantine_IronAge
15.8 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
15.2 Iran_Mesopotamia
13.2 Germanic
11.6 North_Africa_Guanche
2.2 Slavic
0.8 E_Asia

Target: Paul_scaled
Distance: 2.1207% / 0.02120722
38.0 Levantine_IronAge
22.0 Aegeon
15.2 Slavic
12.2 Iran_Mesopotamia
5.0 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
5.0 North_Africa_Guanche
2.6 E_Asia

Levantine_IronAge:Levant_Beirut_IAIII,0.0879282,0. 1524565,-0.0486488,-0.0910456,-0.0101942,-0.0317236,-0.0037306,-0.0098649,0.010124,0.0135538,0.0061304,-0.0041964,0.0116699,0.0030104,-0.0105864,0.0012099,1.64e-05,0.0007285,0.0025766,-0.0008755,0.0024332,0.0045751,-0.0034355,-0.0011446,-0.0020656
North_Africa_Guanche:Canary_Islands_Guanche,-0.0393828,0.1314096,-0.0023384,-0.0687344,0.0337292,-0.0363672,-0.0299874,0.008261,0.0708878,0.0305428,0.0075674,-0.0059948,0.0182554,-0.0176982,0.0232082,-0.0130468,0.0031814,-0.019206,-0.044321,0.010405,-0.0134762,-0.0377142,0.0232692,-0.0011806,0.0046224
Slavic:CZE_Early_Slav,0.12862,0.129988,0.068259,0. 046835,0.02739,0.013387,0.007285,0.014076,-0.001841,-0.018406,-0.000812,-0.004346,0.003717,0.007156,-0.010993,-0.003182,0.011604,-0.002027,-0.002388,-0.004752,0.005615,0.000618,0.001725,-0.000964,-0.006706
Germanic:DEU_MA_ACD_Baiuvaric,0.12088,0.1104896,0. 043897,0.019703,0.0262202,0.0089246,0.0033842,0.00 21228,0.004827,0.00831,0.0001624,0.0023378,-0.0028544,0.0024222,0.0040718,0.0017502,-0.0038594,0.0016218,0.0051534,0.0031764,-0.0002746,0.0003216,0.0078386,-0.0013256,-0.0024908
E_Asia:CHN_Upper_Yellow_River_IA,0.0258,-0.4458177,0.010308,-0.0622313,0.0420593,0.0190577,0.004857,-0.000846,-0.0067493,0.0095367,-0.0801117,-0.009092,0.0137263,-0.0054593,-0.0126673,-0.001149,0.005128,-0.00152,-0.0018437,-0.0074203,0.0062807,0.010428,0.0073123,0.000241,0. 007504
Iran_Mesopotamia:IRN_Hasanlu_IA,0.09675,0.121864,-0.06939,-0.04199,-0.0437,-0.003904,0.002115,-0.004615,-0.033746,-0.014761,0.005684,0.001049,0.004757,-0.007707,0.003664,0.026916,0.009518,0.002534,0.006 034,-0.001376,-0.000873,-0.000618,0.000493,-0.003133,-0.001557
Iran_Mesopotamia:IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA,0.095611,0.111 708,-0.069767,-0.036176,-0.047393,0.003626,-0.00235,-0.001846,-0.043155,-0.019499,0.003897,-0.002997,0.008771,0.002615,0.00095,0.009679,-0.010561,0.012922,0.006788,-0.003627,-0.003868,-0.013107,-0.004067,-0.004699,0.007664
ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA,0.133173,0.156392,0.0445,-0.00969,0.044008,-0.004462,0.00846,0.003,0.024543,0.044101,-0.002598,0.012289,-0.022448,-0.009634,-0.005429,-0.005834,0.00352,0.003167,0.006034,-0.007379,-0.008859,0.005317,-0.000863,-0.006989,-0.001796
Aegeon:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,0.118376,0.15842 3,-0.009051,-0.0670225,0.0252355,-0.027889,0.001645,-0.005077,0.0049085,0.042552,0.002842,0.01124,-0.016873,0.003578,-0.018526,-0.0157785,0.0035855,0.0003805,0.004588,-0.0126935,-0.008298,0.001546,0.001664,0.0071095,-0.008502


With singles used (minus outliers)

Target: Paul_scaled
Distance: 1.5837% / 0.01583726
35.8 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
24.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
13.4 DEU_MA_ACD_Baiuvaric
12.8 IRN_Hasanlu_IA
8.6 CZE_Early_Slav
5.0 Canary_Islands_Guanche
0.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA

Target: Mom_scaled
Distance: 1.1935% / 0.01193454
28.2 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
24.2 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
12.6 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
11.6 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
9.4 Canary_Islands_Guanche
7.8 CZE_Early_Slav
5.8 DEU_MA_ACD_Baiuvaric
0.4 CHN_Upper_Yellow_River_IA

Instead of Beirut, using Canaan via illustrative DNA:
Mom:
Canaanite (1970–1250 BC)26.4%

Liburnian (930–760 BC)16.4%

Hellenic (1420–200 BC)14.0%

Italic and Etruscan (900–200 BC)13.0%

Northwest African (580–1160 AD)11.0%

Slavic (540–1160 AD)8.0%

Zagrosian (1200–830 BC)7.2%

Turkic (650–1200 AD)4.0%


Paul:
Summary

Simplified
Canaanite (1970–1250 BC)34.6%

Hellenic (1420–200 BC)31.0%

Liburnian (930–760 BC)8.8%

Slavic (540–1160 AD)8.0%

Zagrosian (1200–830 BC)7.0%

Turkic (650–1200 AD)6.2%

Northwest African (580–1160 AD)4.4%

So swapping IA levantine with BA levantine - my mom and her brother are around 45 percent middle eastern north african, and when using IA levantine samples, they are around 50 percent + middle east north african.

When modeling a lebanese christian neolithically:
Target: Lebanese_Christian
Distance: 1.8923% / 0.01892304
43.0 Levant_PPNB
27.6 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
12.4 TUR_Barcin_N
12.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
5.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

The 5 percent steppe could be either from aegeon greek heritage or from mesopotamian input.

My entire point is that ashkenazim are not entirely levantine for their "mena part" but a mix of levantine, north african, and mesopotamian. berbers carry high neolithic farmer and mesopotamia does indeed have steppe ancestry as well:

Target: IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
Distance: 3.2333% / 0.03233310
36.2 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
26.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
13.0 Levant_PPNB
11.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
11.4 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
1.0 Han

Target: Canary_Islands_Guanche
Distance: 1.9254% / 0.01925386
37.8 TUR_Barcin_N
34.2 MAR_Taforalt
10.0 Levant_PPNB
9.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
4.8 Yoruba
1.8 Dinka
1.8 WHG
0.4 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps

This is why people like Genetica like to claim levantine only applies neolithically, but one cannot judge when components are so mixed like that.

Ajeje Brazorf
01-23-2022, 11:53 PM
I would not say lebanese christians are shifted more towards europe but more towards anatolia and mesopotamia.

Yeah, I agree.

Gentica277282
01-24-2022, 12:56 AM
Christian Lebanese are more shifted towards Europe, they have less Levant_N, more EEF and Steppe, this is also why if they are used as proxy the percentage explodes reaching 50%.

That’s correct their eef is well above average, they’re more steppe and eef related then the other Levantine populations which is why it’s not a good idea to use them with Ashkenazi Jews who have such high eef as well because it proves nothing

Levantine_Viking
01-24-2022, 02:58 AM
That’s correct their eef is well above average, they’re more steppe and eef related then the other Levantine populations which is why it’s not a good idea to use them with Ashkenazi Jews who have such high eef as well because it proves nothing

Ashkenazi have high eef due to being half BA/IA Middle Eastern along with Aegeon and italic dna on top of that.

As shown before iron age and bronze age samples bring the total mena percentage in ashkenazim from 40-60 percent.

Levantine_Viking
01-24-2022, 02:59 AM
That’s correct their eef is well above average, they’re more steppe and eef related then the other Levantine populations which is why it’s not a good idea to use them with Ashkenazi Jews who have such high eef as well because it proves nothing

Lebanese Christians have higher steppe and eef not due to being closer to Europeans but have traces of other ancestry from anatolia and mesopotamia, which affected Lebanon more than the southern levant.

Mnemonics
01-24-2022, 04:50 AM
Samaritans of all people have the most continuity with ancient populations, there is good reason to believe that in the 2nd century AD Judeans had a profile similar to theirs. Then I honestly don't know, we don't have ancient DNA from Judea from that period.


Distance to: Samaritan
0.02163410 Levant_Sidon_MBA
0.02287706 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
0.02463971 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
0.02483747 Levant_Beirut_IAIII


The Samaritans demonstrate an incredible amount of continuity. The diploid Samaritian sample can basically perfectly be modeled using Lebanon_ERoman.SG as a single source even with relatively large right pops list.







left pops:
Samaritan.DG
Lebanon_ERoman.SG

right pops:
Cameroon_SMA.SG
DevilsGate_N
South_Africa_HG
Yana_UP
Boncuklu_N.SG
Barcin_N.SG
Ekven_IA.SG
Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG
CHG
Greece_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA.SG
ZlatyKun
Russia_Sunghir3.SG
Swiss_HG
Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG
Iran_TepeAbdulHosein_N.SG
Russia_Afanasievo.SG
Lebanon_MBA.SG
Lebanon_IA3.SG
Mota
Guanche
Morocco_EN

0 Samaritan.DG 1
1 Lebanon_ERoman.SG 4
2 Cameroon_SMA.SG 2
3 DevilsGate_N 4
4 South_Africa_HG 4
5 Yana_UP 2
6 Boncuklu_N.SG 6
7 Barcin_N.SG 3
8 Ekven_IA.SG 10
9 Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG 4
10 CHG 2
11 Greece_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA.SG 2
12 ZlatyKun 1
13 Russia_Sunghir3.SG 1
14 Swiss_HG 1
15 Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG 1
16 Iran_TepeAbdulHosein_N.SG 3
17 Russia_Afanasievo.SG 2
18 Lebanon_MBA.SG 5
19 Lebanon_IA3.SG 8
20 Mota 1
21 Guanche 4
22 Morocco_EN 3
jackknife block size: 0.050
snps: 1150420 indivs: 74
number of blocks for block jackknife: 714
## ncols: 1150420
coverage: Samaritan.DG 1115266
coverage: Lebanon_ERoman.SG 1148135
coverage: Cameroon_SMA.SG 1148760
coverage: DevilsGate_N 1134715
coverage: South_Africa_HG 1135129
coverage: Yana_UP 1135189
coverage: Boncuklu_N.SG 1138952
coverage: Barcin_N.SG 1150122
coverage: Ekven_IA.SG 1144810
coverage: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG 1150077
coverage: CHG 1134595
coverage: Greece_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA.SG 1139387
coverage: ZlatyKun 1120502
coverage: Russia_Sunghir3.SG 1149729
coverage: Swiss_HG 1130733
coverage: Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG 1148603
coverage: Iran_TepeAbdulHosein_N.SG 1061032
coverage: Russia_Afanasievo.SG 1147532
coverage: Lebanon_MBA.SG 1138714
coverage: Lebanon_IA3.SG 1144168
coverage: Mota 1134612
coverage: Guanche 1140173
coverage: Morocco_EN 653097
Effective number of blocks: 607.845
numsnps used: 838290
codimension 1
f4info:
f4rank: 0 dof: 20 chisq: 13.594 tail: 0.85045836 dofdiff: 0 chisqdiff: 0.000 taildiff: 1


full rank
f4info:
f4rank: 1 dof: 0 chisq: 0.000 tail: 1 dofdiff: 20 chisqdiff: 13.594 taildiff: 0.85045836
B:
scale 2824.615
DevilsGate_N 1.246
South_Africa_HG -0.052
Yana_UP 1.860
Boncuklu_N.SG 0.972
Barcin_N.SG 1.248
Ekven_IA.SG 1.398
Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG 0.830
CHG 0.398
Greece_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA.SG 1.705
ZlatyKun 0.729
Russia_Sunghir3.SG 0.425
Swiss_HG 0.679
Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG 0.701
Iran_TepeAbdulHosein_N.SG 1.062
Russia_Afanasievo.SG 0.763
Lebanon_MBA.SG 0.714
Lebanon_IA3.SG 1.087
Mota 0.281
Guanche 0.484
Morocco_EN 1.180
A:
scale 1.000
Lebanon_ERoman.SG 1.000


best coefficients: 0.000
Jackknife mean: 1.000000000
std. errors: 0.000

error covariance (* 1,000,000)
0


summ: Samaritan.DG 1 0.850458 1.000 0

StillWater
01-24-2022, 05:57 AM
Anyway last word on the topic I would say Ashkenazi are around 30-40 percent Levantine with anyone over that an outlier

Can you post a model with the exact reference coordinates?

StillWater
01-24-2022, 06:05 AM
Yeah, I agree.

One thing to keep in mind is that Samaritans separated from other Jews in Biblical times. At that point, it's unclear if other Jews followed the same admixture history in Israel.

1. I expect that non-Samaritans would've accepted more converts in later periods.
2. Like others have said on here before (Erikl86 for example), I also expect to see an urban bias to those who left and I, likewise, expect to see more admixture in the urban populace prior to leaving.

Gentica277282
01-24-2022, 08:57 AM
Can you post a model with the exact reference coordinates?
Model: slim bens Iron Age 2.0

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine
Distance: 0.9849% / 0.00984902 | ADC: 0.5x RC
23.8 Picentini
19.6 Pre-Ptolemaic_Egyptian
15.4 West_Scythian
15.2 Greco-Latin
12.0 Greek_Mycenaean
10.4 Mittani
3.6 Parthian-Achemenid

Target: Ashkenazi_Russia
Distance: 1.0012% / 0.01001205 | ADC: 0.5x RC
23.6 Greco-Latin
19.8 Picentini
18.6 Pre-Ptolemaic_Egyptian
17.0 West_Scythian
9.4 Greek_Mycenaean
6.0 Mittani
5.6 Parthian-Achemenid

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland
Distance: 0.9064% / 0.00906391 | ADC: 0.5x RC
21.8 Picentini
20.2 Pre-Ptolemaic_Egyptian
19.4 Greco-Latin
13.8 West_Scythian
11.0 Mittani
9.6 Greek_Mycenaean
4.2 Parthian-Achemenid

Target: Ashkenazi_Lithuania
Distance: 1.0232% / 0.01023162 | ADC: 0.5x RC
26.4 Greco-Latin
20.4 West_Scythian
14.0 Philistin
13.6 Picentini
12.2 Pre-Ptolemaic_Egyptian
7.6 Greek_Mycenaean
4.8 Mittani
1.0 Hittite

Target: Ashkenazi_Germany
Distance: 0.9851% / 0.00985074 | ADC: 0.5x RC
34.8 Greco-Latin
20.0 Pre-Ptolemaic_Egyptian
13.6 West_Scythian
11.6 Greek_Mycenaean
8.0 Phoenician
6.2 Picentini
5.8 Mittani

Target: Ashkenazi_Belarussia
Distance: 0.8203% / 0.00820310 | ADC: 0.5x RC
29.0 Greco-Latin
17.8 West_Scythian
17.4 Picentini
13.2 Pre-Ptolemaic_Egyptian
10.6 Philistin
7.4 Greek_Mycenaean
2.4 Mittani
2.2 Mede-Achemenid

StillWater
01-24-2022, 09:15 AM
Model: slim bens Iron Age 2.0

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine
Distance: 0.9849% / 0.00984902 | ADC: 0.5x RC
23.8 Picentini
19.6 Pre-Ptolemaic_Egyptian
15.4 West_Scythian
15.2 Greco-Latin
12.0 Greek_Mycenaean
10.4 Mittani
3.6 Parthian-Achemenid

Target: Ashkenazi_Russia
Distance: 1.0012% / 0.01001205 | ADC: 0.5x RC
23.6 Greco-Latin
19.8 Picentini
18.6 Pre-Ptolemaic_Egyptian
17.0 West_Scythian
9.4 Greek_Mycenaean
6.0 Mittani
5.6 Parthian-Achemenid

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland
Distance: 0.9064% / 0.00906391 | ADC: 0.5x RC
21.8 Picentini
20.2 Pre-Ptolemaic_Egyptian
19.4 Greco-Latin
13.8 West_Scythian
11.0 Mittani
9.6 Greek_Mycenaean
4.2 Parthian-Achemenid

Target: Ashkenazi_Lithuania
Distance: 1.0232% / 0.01023162 | ADC: 0.5x RC
26.4 Greco-Latin
20.4 West_Scythian
14.0 Philistin
13.6 Picentini
12.2 Pre-Ptolemaic_Egyptian
7.6 Greek_Mycenaean
4.8 Mittani
1.0 Hittite

Target: Ashkenazi_Germany
Distance: 0.9851% / 0.00985074 | ADC: 0.5x RC
34.8 Greco-Latin
20.0 Pre-Ptolemaic_Egyptian
13.6 West_Scythian
11.6 Greek_Mycenaean
8.0 Phoenician
6.2 Picentini
5.8 Mittani

Target: Ashkenazi_Belarussia
Distance: 0.8203% / 0.00820310 | ADC: 0.5x RC
29.0 Greco-Latin
17.8 West_Scythian
17.4 Picentini
13.2 Pre-Ptolemaic_Egyptian
10.6 Philistin
7.4 Greek_Mycenaean
2.4 Mittani
2.2 Mede-Achemenid

Useless.

Gentica277282
01-24-2022, 09:18 AM
Model: slim bens Iron Age 2.0

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine
Distance: 0.9849% / 0.00984902 | ADC: 0.5x RC
23.8 Picentini
19.6 Pre-Ptolemaic_Egyptian
15.4 West_Scythian
15.2 Greco-Latin
12.0 Greek_Mycenaean
10.4 Mittani
3.6 Parthian-Achemenid

Target: Ashkenazi_Russia
Distance: 1.0012% / 0.01001205 | ADC: 0.5x RC
23.6 Greco-Latin
19.8 Picentini
18.6 Pre-Ptolemaic_Egyptian
17.0 West_Scythian
9.4 Greek_Mycenaean
6.0 Mittani
5.6 Parthian-Achemenid

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland
Distance: 0.9064% / 0.00906391 | ADC: 0.5x RC
21.8 Picentini
20.2 Pre-Ptolemaic_Egyptian
19.4 Greco-Latin
13.8 West_Scythian
11.0 Mittani
9.6 Greek_Mycenaean
4.2 Parthian-Achemenid

Target: Ashkenazi_Lithuania
Distance: 1.0232% / 0.01023162 | ADC: 0.5x RC
26.4 Greco-Latin
20.4 West_Scythian
14.0 Philistin
13.6 Picentini
12.2 Pre-Ptolemaic_Egyptian
7.6 Greek_Mycenaean
4.8 Mittani
1.0 Hittite

Target: Ashkenazi_Germany
Distance: 0.9851% / 0.00985074 | ADC: 0.5x RC
34.8 Greco-Latin
20.0 Pre-Ptolemaic_Egyptian
13.6 West_Scythian
11.6 Greek_Mycenaean
8.0 Phoenician
6.2 Picentini
5.8 Mittani

Target: Ashkenazi_Belarussia
Distance: 0.8203% / 0.00820310 | ADC: 0.5x RC
29.0 Greco-Latin
17.8 West_Scythian
17.4 Picentini
13.2 Pre-Ptolemaic_Egyptian
10.6 Philistin
7.4 Greek_Mycenaean
2.4 Mittani
2.2 Mede-Achemenid


Clearly as you can see by the model the exaggerated claims of 60 percent is completely false

Gentica277282
01-24-2022, 09:22 AM
For comparison against Ashkenazi Jews

Target: Lebanese_Christian
Distance: 1.2152% / 0.01215179 | ADC: 0.5x RC
48.6 Phoenician
20.8 Philistin
13.8 Greco-Latin
9.4 Mittani
7.4 Parthian-Achemenid

Target: Lebanese_Druze
Distance: 1.1931% / 0.01193144 | ADC: 0.5x RC
42.2 Phoenician
21.4 Philistin
15.0 Greek_Mycenaean
12.0 Parthian-Achemenid
6.6 Armeni
1.8 Mede-Achemenid
1.0 Hittite

Target: Lebanese_Muslim
Distance: 1.2500% / 0.01250016 | ADC: 0.5x RC
31.2 Phoenician
25.6 Philistin
15.0 Parthian-Achemenid
9.2 West_Scythian
6.8 Mittani
6.4 Berber_Getuli
5.8 Greek_Mycenaean

Target: Palestinian
Distance: 0.9046% / 0.00904599 | ADC: 0.5x RC
38.8 Philistin
25.0 Phoenician
16.6 Pre-Ptolemaic_Egyptian
11.2 West_Scythian
5.8 East_African_Pastoralist
2.6 Benue_Cereal_Farmer

Target: Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
Distance: 1.9985% / 0.01998543 | ADC: 0.5x RC
43.2 Philistin
31.4 Phoenician
18.4 Greco-Latin
7.0 Mede-Achemenid

Target: Samaritan
Distance: 1.3999% / 0.01399850 | ADC: 0.5x RC
55.4 Philistin
32.8 Judean
6.4 Roman-Latini
5.4 Phoenician

Gentica277282
01-24-2022, 09:26 AM
For comparison against Ashkenazi Jews

Target: Lebanese_Christian
Distance: 1.2152% / 0.01215179 | ADC: 0.5x RC
48.6 Phoenician
20.8 Philistin
13.8 Greco-Latin
9.4 Mittani
7.4 Parthian-Achemenid

Target: Lebanese_Druze
Distance: 1.1931% / 0.01193144 | ADC: 0.5x RC
42.2 Phoenician
21.4 Philistin
15.0 Greek_Mycenaean
12.0 Parthian-Achemenid
6.6 Armeni
1.8 Mede-Achemenid
1.0 Hittite

Target: Lebanese_Muslim
Distance: 1.2500% / 0.01250016 | ADC: 0.5x RC
31.2 Phoenician
25.6 Philistin
15.0 Parthian-Achemenid
9.2 West_Scythian
6.8 Mittani
6.4 Berber_Getuli
5.8 Greek_Mycenaean

Target: Palestinian
Distance: 0.9046% / 0.00904599 | ADC: 0.5x RC
38.8 Philistin
25.0 Phoenician
16.6 Pre-Ptolemaic_Egyptian
11.2 West_Scythian
5.8 East_African_Pastoralist
2.6 Benue_Cereal_Farmer

Target: Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
Distance: 1.9985% / 0.01998543 | ADC: 0.5x RC
43.2 Philistin
31.4 Phoenician
18.4 Greco-Latin
7.0 Mede-Achemenid

Target: Samaritan
Distance: 1.3999% / 0.01399850 | ADC: 0.5x RC
55.4 Philistin
32.8 Judean
6.4 Roman-Latini
5.4 Phoenician

Works really well for Levantine populations. All you need to do is compare Samaritan results to Ashkenazi Jews and you’ll have your answer

StillWater
01-24-2022, 09:29 AM
Clearly as you can see by the model the exaggerated claims of 60 percent is completely false

Forget the 60% claim for a second. You don't know what you're doing. You're taking a "fun" calculator, with distant references and then using ADC for them. Just look over the results you got. Those results make no sense for Ashkenazi demographic history. Funny enough, your results support the 60% more than 30%.

Gentica277282
01-24-2022, 09:32 AM
Forget the 60% claim for a second. You don't know what you're doing. You're taking a "fun" calculator, with distant references and then using ADC for them. Just look over the results you got. Those results make no sense for Ashkenazi demographic history. Funny enough, your results support the 60% more than 30%.

The model is fine, also if that’s the case you can claim every model is for fun. In what sense does it support the 60 percent and I said 30-40 percent in Ashkenazi Jews maybe a little over 40 percent

Let’s hear your perspective how much Levantine does Ashkenazi Jews have and you can post your models and references

StillWater
01-24-2022, 09:36 AM
Works really well for Levantine populations. All you need to do is compare Samaritan results to Ashkenazi Jews and you’ll have your answer

It works terribly for them as well.

Gentica277282
01-24-2022, 09:38 AM
It works terribly for them as well.

Post a model and the results I’ll try it out as well

Levantine_Viking
01-24-2022, 01:37 PM
The model is fine, also if that’s the case you can claim every model is for fun. In what sense does it support the 60 percent and I said 30-40 percent in Ashkenazi Jews maybe a little over 40 percent

Let’s hear your perspective how much Levantine does Ashkenazi Jews have and you can post your models and references

I posted a well thought out historical model from Ia to BA by illustrative DNA, having much better distance WITHOUT adc and WITHOUT overlap,using g25 coordinates for my ashkenazi mother and her ashkenazi brother, which when using canaan samples gave them both 45 percent mena (combining Iran ia, guanche, and canaan)
I then posted a similar calculator, exchanging canaan for Beirut III and it propped them both up to over 50 percent mena.

The value you are using are a conglomerate or mixed samples with added adc and no basis on historical migrations for ashkenazim, yet according to you these are "fine" but the Ash. Migration model by illustrative is "dodgy"

Sounds like your agenda is more.political than historic or scientific.

I'm not claiming half levantine for ashkenazim, but half MENA, because they are. And that's a fact.

Levantine_Viking
01-24-2022, 01:40 PM
Post a model and the results I’ll try it out as well

For the sake of easy I'll post them again

Here is the breakdown for ashkenazim in the iron age using my mom and her brother:
Target: Mom_scaled
Distance: 1.6988% / 0.01698759
21.2 Aegeon
20.0 Levantine_IronAge
15.8 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
15.2 Iran_Mesopotamia
13.2 Germanic
11.6 North_Africa_Guanche
2.2 Slavic
0.8 E_Asia

Target: Paul_scaled
Distance: 2.1207% / 0.02120722
38.0 Levantine_IronAge
22.0 Aegeon
15.2 Slavic
12.2 Iran_Mesopotamia
5.0 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
5.0 North_Africa_Guanche
2.6 E_Asia

This model is on page 20

With singles used (minus outliers)

Target: Paul_scaled
Distance: 1.5837% / 0.01583726
35.8 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
24.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
13.4 DEU_MA_ACD_Baiuvaric
12.8 IRN_Hasanlu_IA
8.6 CZE_Early_Slav
5.0 Canary_Islands_Guanche
0.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA

Target: Mom_scaled
Distance: 1.1935% / 0.01193454
28.2 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
24.2 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
12.6 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
11.6 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
9.4 Canary_Islands_Guanche
7.8 CZE_Early_Slav
5.8 DEU_MA_ACD_Baiuvaric
0.4 CHN_Upper_Yellow_River_IA

Instead of Beirut, using Canaan via illustrative DNA:
Mom:
Canaanite (1970–1250 BC)26.4%

Liburnian (930–760 BC)16.4%

Hellenic (1420–200 BC)14.0%

Italic and Etruscan (900–200 BC)13.0%

Northwest African (580–1160 AD)11.0%

Slavic (540–1160 AD)8.0%

Zagrosian (1200–830 BC)7.2%

Turkic (650–1200 AD)4.0%


Paul:
Summary

Simplified
Canaanite (1970–1250 BC)34.6%

Hellenic (1420–200 BC)31.0%

Liburnian (930–760 BC)8.8%

Slavic (540–1160 AD)8.0%

Zagrosian (1200–830 BC)7.0%

Turkic (650–1200 AD)6.2%

Northwest African (580–1160 AD)4.4%

Gentica277282
01-24-2022, 01:44 PM
Deleted

Gentica277282
01-24-2022, 01:45 PM
I posted a well thought out historical model from Ia to BA by illustrative DNA, having much better distance WITHOUT adc and WITHOUT overlap,using g25 coordinates for my ashkenazi mother and her ashkenazi brother, which when using canaan samples gave them both 45 percent mena (combining Iran ia, guanche, and canaan)
I then posted a similar calculator, exchanging canaan for Beirut III and it propped them both up to over 50 percent mena.

The value you are using are a conglomerate or mixed samples with added adc and no basis on historical migrations for ashkenazim, yet according to you these are "fine" but the Ash. Migration model by illustrative is "dodgy"

Sounds like your agenda is more.political than historic or scientific.

I'm not claiming half levantine for ashkenazim, but half MENA, because they are. And that's a fact.

Oh okay I thought you was claiming half Levantine

Levantine_Viking
01-24-2022, 02:04 PM
Oh okay I thought you was claiming half Levantine

The majority of the mena in ashkenazim is levantine. They're average 30 percent canaanites but have additional admixture from.borth Africa and mesopotamia. However when deleting both of these references the levant goes up due to shared neolithic components.

Ajeje Brazorf
01-24-2022, 03:02 PM
One thing to keep in mind is that Samaritans separated from other Jews in Biblical times. At that point, it's unclear if other Jews followed the same admixture history in Israel.

1. I expect that non-Samaritans would've accepted more converts in later periods.
2. Like others have said on here before (Erikl86 for example), I also expect to see an urban bias to those who left and I, likewise, expect to see more admixture in the urban populace prior to leaving.

Which of these modern populations do you think best proxy the Levantine part of Ashkenazi Jews? If there was admixture in Judea I would say it is Lebanese_Christian or Palestinian_Beit_Sahour.

https://i.imgur.com/ziVrvd8.png

Gentica277282
01-24-2022, 03:10 PM
Which of these modern populations do you think best proxy the Levantine part of Ashkenazi Jews? If there was admixture in Judea I would say it is Lebanese_Christian or Palestinian_Beit_Sahour.

https://i.imgur.com/ziVrvd8.png

What’s the component for the Middle East

altvred
01-24-2022, 04:50 PM
Lebanese Christians have higher steppe and eef not due to being closer to Europeans but have traces of other ancestry from anatolia and mesopotamia, which affected Lebanon more than the southern levant.

Lebanese Christians on average have less Steppe-ancestry compared to Lebanese Muslims.

As a rule of thumb, religious minorities in the Middle East have remained more or less genetically isolated for the past 1000-1200 years, which is evident by their similarities to the Hellenistic/Roman-era samples.

The Muslim majority, however, are more "cosmopolitan."

90%+ of their' ancestry is nearly identical to that of their Christian neighbors; however, they harbor minor and variable amounts of Sub-Saharan-African, South Asian, and Iranian admixture.

On qpAdm, the Lebanese Christian samples can be modeled mostly as Lebanon_IAIII while the Lebanese Muslims and Palestinians pick up more Steppe_EMBA and African admixture that is absent in Christians.

No idea which way the additional Steppe ancestry comes. It could be from the Ottoman period or even earlier during the Middle Ages.

As for Ashkenazi Jews, the most proximal models on qpAdm have them as 50%-60% Levant_IA, 30%-35% Italy_IA(the Greek colonists from Spain work as well), and 10%-15% Northern-Euro(Balto-Slavic seems like the most likely source, in this particular model, I just used Yamnaya as a proxy to reduce left pops).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xriceHB4KSuoXZljEmdxtnFmFalKWU-Z4zFyTThPWMg/edit?usp=sharing

Levantine_Viking
01-24-2022, 05:05 PM
Lebanese Christians on average have less Steppe-ancestry compared to Lebanese Muslims.

As a rule of thumb, religious minorities in the Middle East have remained more or less genetically isolated for the past 1000-1200 years, which is evident by their similarities to the Hellenistic/Roman-era samples.

The Muslim majority, however, are more "cosmopolitan."

90%+ of their' ancestry is nearly identical to that of their Christian neighbors; however, they harbor minor and variable amounts of Sub-Saharan-African, South Asian, and Iranian admixture.

On qpAdm, the Lebanese Christian samples can be modeled mostly as Lebanon_IAIII while the Lebanese Muslims and Palestinians pick up more Steppe_EMBA and African admixture that is absent in Christians.

No idea which way the additional Steppe ancestry comes. It could be from the Ottoman period or even earlier during the Middle Ages.

As for Ashkenazi Jews, the most proximal models on qpAdm have them as 50%-60% Levant_IA, 30%-35% Italy_IA(the Greek colonists from Spain work as well), and 10%-15% Northern-Euro(Balto-Slavic seems like the most likely source, in this particular model, I just used Yamnaya as a proxy to reduce left pops).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xriceHB4KSuoXZljEmdxtnFmFalKWU-Z4zFyTThPWMg/edit?usp=sharing

Are u able to run my mom.and I on this model

Levantine_Viking
01-24-2022, 05:16 PM
Lebanese Christians on average have less Steppe-ancestry compared to Lebanese Muslims.

As a rule of thumb, religious minorities in the Middle East have remained more or less genetically isolated for the past 1000-1200 years, which is evident by their similarities to the Hellenistic/Roman-era samples.

The Muslim majority, however, are more "cosmopolitan."

90%+ of their' ancestry is nearly identical to that of their Christian neighbors; however, they harbor minor and variable amounts of Sub-Saharan-African, South Asian, and Iranian admixture.

On qpAdm, the Lebanese Christian samples can be modeled mostly as Lebanon_IAIII while the Lebanese Muslims and Palestinians pick up more Steppe_EMBA and African admixture that is absent in Christians.

No idea which way the additional Steppe ancestry comes. It could be from the Ottoman period or even earlier during the Middle Ages.

As for Ashkenazi Jews, the most proximal models on qpAdm have them as 50%-60% Levant_IA, 30%-35% Italy_IA(the Greek colonists from Spain work as well), and 10%-15% Northern-Euro(Balto-Slavic seems like the most likely source, in this particular model, I just used Yamnaya as a proxy to reduce left pops).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xriceHB4KSuoXZljEmdxtnFmFalKWU-Z4zFyTThPWMg/edit?usp=sharing

I agree with this. Lebanese Christians are.majoriry canaanite. I think what the genetica person was saying is that they are a bit more north shifted than let's say megiddo BA.

SUPREEEEEME
01-24-2022, 06:17 PM
Post a model and the results I’ll try it out as well

I can help you out with that. As a preface, I don't believe we have the appropriate references we need for Western Jews yet - but we do have sufficient proxies.

This is, currently, how we model Ashkenazim:

https://imgur.com/NDh99cM

If we remove Anatolian to gauge an upper bound for our Levantine ancestry:

https://imgur.com/EVWU3FC

Doesn't matter if we swap out Levant_LBN_Roman with Levant_Beirut_IAIII:

https://imgur.com/z3DLutO

All models have pretty reasonable fits. We can see that Ashkenazi Levantine ancestry can range from 32.3%-43.5%, while total Ashkenazi MENA ancestry can range from 53.2%-61.9% - however, it is important to remember that the Levantine references include Greek and Anatolian components, while the Anatolian profile Imperial Roman samples have Greek (and possibly Levantine) components. This reinforces the mixing that occurred in the East Med during the Hellenistic Period (etc...). We should expect Judean samples to follow a similar trend.

Target: ITA_Rome_Imperial(Anatolian_Profile)
Distance: 2.1101% / 0.02110103
69.6 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
23.8 GRC_Mycenaean
6.6 Levant_Megiddo_IA


Target: Levant_LBN_Roman
Distance: 1.9300% / 0.01929987
74.4 Levant_Sidon_MBA
25.6 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA


Target: Levant_Beirut_IAIII
Distance: 1.2673% / 0.01267305
72.8 Levant_Sidon_MBA
15.6 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
11.6 GRC_Mycenaean

Unfortunately can't get the image tags to work

Levantine_Viking
01-24-2022, 08:36 PM
I can help you out with that. As a preface, I don't believe we have the appropriate references we need for Western Jews yet - but we do have sufficient proxies.

This is, currently, how we model Ashkenazim:

https://imgur.com/NDh99cM

If we remove Anatolian to gauge an upper bound for our Levantine ancestry:

https://imgur.com/EVWU3FC

Doesn't matter if we swap out Levant_LBN_Roman with Levant_Beirut_IAIII:

https://imgur.com/z3DLutO

All models have pretty reasonable fits. We can see that Ashkenazi Levantine ancestry can range from 32.3%-43.5%, while total Ashkenazi MENA ancestry can range from 53.2%-61.9% - however, it is important to remember that the Levantine references include Greek and Anatolian components, while the Anatolian profile Imperial Roman samples have Greek (and possibly Levantine) components. This reinforces the mixing that occurred in the East Med during the Hellenistic Period (etc...). We should expect Judean samples to follow a similar trend.

Target: ITA_Rome_Imperial(Anatolian_Profile)
Distance: 2.1101% / 0.02110103
69.6 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
23.8 GRC_Mycenaean
6.6 Levant_Megiddo_IA


Target: Levant_LBN_Roman
Distance: 1.9300% / 0.01929987
74.4 Levant_Sidon_MBA
25.6 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA


Target: Levant_Beirut_IAIII
Distance: 1.2673% / 0.01267305
72.8 Levant_Sidon_MBA
15.6 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
11.6 GRC_Mycenaean

Unfortunately can't get the image tags to work

I much prefer illustrative dna models because they're much better for mixed ancestry such as mine.

Gentica277282
01-25-2022, 01:21 AM
I much prefer illustrative dna models because they're much better for mixed ancestry such as mine.

I’m sure he can post the models and you can try them out to see your results

Levantine_Viking
01-25-2022, 02:06 AM
I’m sure he can post the models and you can try them out to see your results

Yes, he did. They seem to work for my mom and her brother, for me on the other hand not as well because my father is not jewish.

Alexander87
01-25-2022, 10:56 PM
Works really well for Levantine populations. All you need to do is compare Samaritan results to Ashkenazi Jews and you’ll have your answer

can you post the coordinates of this model please?

Gentica277282
01-26-2022, 12:35 AM
can you post the coordinates of this model please?

Slim bens Iron Age 2.0

West_African_Cereal-Farmer:HGDP00915,-0.599848,0.064994,0.017348,0.008721,0.002462,0.008 646,-0.042302,0.034152,-0.03027,0.02606,0.003897,0.004646,0.024975,-0.002477,0.014658,-0.016839,0.007302,0.004561,-0.00264,-0.003126,-0.002496,-0.005317,0.000863,-0.002651,-0.002874
Nilo-Saharian_Pastoralist,-0.593342,0.04687,0.000936,-0.00969,-0.007386,-0.003666,-0.01658,0.014769,0.075674,-0.113898,-0.022478,0.038924,-0.049207,-0.000046,0.005065,-0.020419,0.028645,-0.020507,0.042877,-0.027138,0.002496,0.007172,-0.017238,-0.010241,0.004071
Bantu_Cereal_Farmer,-0.613507,0.061947,0.023004,0.010659,0.008001,0.013 108,0.009165,-0.000231,-0.019839,0.009476,0.011692,-0.000599,-0.008771,0.012661,-0.008279,0.023071,-0.010561,0.051436,-0.03243,-0.001,0,0.002473,0.00949,-0.011447,-0.003233
Bantu_Cereal_Farmer,-0.633995,0.054839,0.021873,0.021641,-0.000615,0.008925,0.001645,0.004615,-0.020043,0.007107,0.002923,-0.002248,-0.017839,-0.003165,-0.016015,0.020551,-0.001173,0.033192,-0.009553,0.006878,-0.002246,0.000124,-0.000739,0.002048,0.005987
Bantu_Cereal_Farmer,-0.623751,0.072103,0.013953,0.015827,0.004616,0.005 02,0.007755,-0.003923,-0.024543,0.012392,0.004872,-0.005245,-0.007433,-0.002202,-0.016286,0.01074,-0.005607,0.045355,-0.01898,0.000375,-0.004118,-0.003586,0.002588,-0.004458,0.000479
Bantu_Cereal_Farmer,-0.631718,0.064994,0.026398,0.014212,0.003693,0.011 713,0.00423,0.003923,-0.029451,0.010387,0.003248,-0.004196,-0.007284,0.000138,-0.010043,0.012861,-0.012908,0.037373,-0.01898,0.003627,-0.003494,0.000124,0.002465,-0.00494,0.000838
East_Bantu_Cereal_Farmer:I2298,-0.616921,0.066009,0.021119,0.011305,0.004001,0.013 108,-0.00987,0.016153,-0.020248,0.002187,0.000812,0.007943,-0.014717,0.003165,-0.019272,0.005304,-0.014212,0.00266,-0.006034,0.006503,0.004118,0.003957,0.001849,0.005 663,0.003233
South_West_African_Hunter-Gatherer,-0.641962,0.057885,0.023381,0.031008,0.001539,0.008 925,0.165212,-0.127841,-0.023929,0.039545,0.012179,-0.133831,-0.045787,-0.004129,0.003122,-0.006364,-0.001304,-0.029265,0.005531,-0.003377,0.006863,0.000742,-0.001109,0.000482,0.000359
Ethiopian_Highland_Farmer,-0.423422,0.076165,-0.011691,-0.042313,0.001231,-0.027889,-0.00282,0.004384,0.107784,-0.089113,-0.017538,0.006744,-0.022299,0.001651,0.015744,-0.024529,0.011604,0.003674,0.012444,-0.007754,-0.000998,0.009521,-0.003697,0.000843,-0.005987
Ethiopian_Highland_Farmer,-0.400657,0.084289,-0.018479,-0.04522,0.003385,-0.025937,-0.016686,0.007384,0.106352,-0.084375,-0.016076,0.000749,-0.015609,0.003578,0.026601,-0.02254,0.018384,-0.004814,0.016718,-0.015632,0.004243,0.008779,-0.006779,-0.004097,0.003712
East_African_Pastoralist,-0.219679,0.1046,-0.033941,-0.076874,0.004001,-0.044065,-0.00329,-0.005077,0.125373,-0.069979,0,-0.015137,0.013379,0.010184,0.028094,-0.019491,0.019166,0.006968,-0.009679,0.003502,0.001747,0.000989,0.009244,0.000 482,0.003353
East_African_Pastoralist,-0.311875,0.089367,-0.026021,-0.072675,0.003385,-0.030399,-0.005405,-0.012692,0.119646,-0.092029,-0.002761,-0.009442,-0.000595,0.001376,0.019137,-0.023999,0.02386,0.006334,0.006411,-0.006628,0.003244,0.004822,-0.006655,-0.001325,0.002395
Khoisan_Hunter-Gatherers,-0.641962,0.055854,0.026021,0.034884,0.004616,-0.001116,0.267677,-0.210222,0.007567,0.01549,0.006983,-0.06729,-0.019475,0.006881,0.022394,-0.020021,0.038072,0.292144,-0.091885,0.006628,-0.033441,-0.001484,0.003204,0.001566,0.003233
Khoisan_Hunter-Gatherers,-0.644239,0.058901,0.02489,0.034884,-0.001231,-0.004183,0.262977,-0.202838,0.015135,0.014943,0.010393,-0.06759,-0.020961,0.004266,0.025244,-0.018032,0.031814,0.299238,-0.098673,0.005378,-0.030571,-0.002844,-0.00037,-0.003133,-0.002275
Khoisan_Hunter-Gatherers,-0.638548,0.052808,0.026776,0.034884,0.000308,-0.003904,0.273552,-0.208607,0.00859,0.015672,0.008769,-0.063094,-0.02438,0.00812,0.023615,-0.022408,0.032726,0.292397,-0.096662,0.006128,-0.037559,-0.007419,0.006655,-0.00723,-0.002155
Khoisan_Hunter-Gatherers,-0.639686,0.058901,0.025644,0.041344,-0.00277,-0.002789,0.267912,-0.20653,0.011658,0.016766,0.002761,-0.06744,-0.01888,0.005092,0.026058,-0.013392,0.031944,0.289737,-0.092137,0.003752,-0.035188,-0.000495,0.002835,-0.000843,-0.00934
Berber_Numidian,-0.086506,0.136081,-0.012068,-0.097869,0.035083,-0.041834,-0.039717,0.003461,0.109011,0.035718,0.008282,-0.010341,0.027205,-0.018441,0.024294,-0.030761,-0.014473,-0.032939,-0.058324,0.012506,-0.013351,-0.045628,0.024526,-0.008676,0.00467
Berber_Getuli,-0.06122,0.130143,-0.012263,-0.081086,0.0257,-0.047133,-0.026192,0.007384,0.071013,0.03283,0.022179,-0.00899,0.016987,-0.028029,0.020087,-0.016309,0.010652,-0.026596,-0.063561,0.023001,-0.021729,-0.058548,0.053064,-0.01385,0.005987
Benue_Cereal_Farmer,-0.627165,0.066009,0.021496,0.015181,0.002462,0.012 55,-0.050292,0.05169,-0.046836,0.031891,0.005359,-0.003447,0.027651,0.00234,0.015472,-0.011005,0.006258,-0.002027,0.005028,0.001751,-0.001622,-0.000124,-0.000986,0.001205,0.002155
Pre-Ptolemaic_Egyptian,0.046667,0.152329,-0.037712,-0.121126,0,-0.054384,-0.010575,-0.006231,0.048472,0.007289,0.000162,-0.010191,0.026164,0.000138,0,-0.008486,-0.007953,-0.005194,-0.00176,0.006878,0.005989,0.001237,0.005053,0.0131 34,0.006227
Pre-Ptolemaic_Egyptian,0.053497,0.141159,-0.04714,-0.115635,-0.004001,-0.04518,-0.020681,-0.003231,0.046427,0.005103,0.017863,-0.012739,0.0333,-0.011836,-0.001629,0.004375,-0.00691,0.001267,-0.005279,0.017133,0.005241,0.002102,0.002218,-0.005302,-0.007424
Nabatean:I10104,0.093335,0.146236,-0.07203,-0.102714,-0.022466,-0.032072,-0.015981,-0.021922,0.026384,0.01221,0.007632,-0.020981,0.026462,0.002752,-0.015065,-0.0118,-0.031553,0.015076,0.001508,0.016258,0.010606,-0.009027,-0.016762,-0.001446,-0.007424
Aramean:I6565,0.086506,0.149283,-0.079195,-0.107237,-0.01908,-0.049921,0.00564,0.003,0.015953,-0.002187,0.015752,-0.017385,0.021407,-0.003578,-0.007736,-0.008088,-0.011735,0.016723,0.001885,0.001751,0.00836,0.0101 4,-0.012695,-0.008194,-0.002036
Arabian_Bedouins,0.071709,0.139128,-0.062225,-0.111113,-0.008001,-0.043507,-0.011751,-0.015692,0.041723,0.009476,0.013316,-0.019782,0.049653,-0.00523,0.000814,0.028639,-0.000522,-0.00038,-0.001131,0.020135,0.006364,0.012489,-0.00419,0.003133,-0.002036
Philistin,0.080814,0.145221,-0.066373,-0.101422,-0.021542,-0.029562,-0.003055,-0.012923,0.003272,0.002005,0.012179,-0.008393,0.019475,0.003303,0.001086,0.010872,-0.00339,0.001394,0.007668,-0.003627,0.006988,0.001731,0,0.000241,0.003473
Phoenician,0.087644,0.151314,-0.055437,-0.089794,-0.018773,-0.03765,-0.00282,-0.004384,0.00859,0.012574,0.009906,-0.005395,0.016799,-0.005505,-0.007465,0.006364,0.000522,0.002787,-0.00176,-0.00025,0.004617,0.010634,-0.00912,0,-0.003113
Judean,0.087644,0.160454,-0.054682,-0.102391,-0.006155,-0.041555,-0.004935,-0.002769,0.026588,0.013668,0.019487,-0.008243,0.016204,0.030139,-0.007329,-0.007823,-0.026077,0.003421,0.006662,0.005753,-0.00861,0.013973,-0.006039,0.003374,-0.002515
Ancient_Neo-Assyrian,0.105855,0.151314,-0.043746,-0.086887,-0.009848,-0.032909,-0.003525,-0.014076,-0.010226,0.030069,0.017376,0.004496,-0.019921,0.001789,-0.012215,-0.003713,0.008605,-0.00076,0.012444,-0.007504,0.003993,0.007914,-0.006655,0.006627,-0.001317
Mittani,0.103579,0.15436,-0.035449,-0.076228,-0.001539,-0.01506,0.021151,0.002538,-0.000818,0.010752,-0.004384,0.017684,-0.003271,0.020231,-0.008007,-0.006629,-0.014864,0.004561,0.010936,-0.008254,-0.000624,-0.002844,0.005916,-0.001687,-0.007185
Hittite,0.100164,0.150298,-0.02753,-0.073967,0.004001,-0.024821,-0.006345,-0.006923,-0.001636,0.031709,0.007795,0.006294,-0.011744,-0.002202,-0.013165,0.002652,0.011995,0.001647,0.010307,-0.019384,-0.009982,0.010881,-0.004067,0.005422,-0.001557
Phrygian-Hellenestic,0.112685,0.15436,0.029038,-0.031331,0.031083,-0.011435,-0.015981,-0.020768,-0.002863,0.036629,0.012017,-0.001798,-0.015312,-0.000688,-0.032166,-0.010077,0.021774,-0.004307,0.009804,-0.02001,-0.018842,-0.005193,0.000246,-0.008676,-0.005628
Mede-Achemenid,0.09675,0.121864,-0.06939,-0.04199,-0.0437,-0.003904,0.002115,-0.004615,-0.033746,-0.014761,0.005684,0.001049,0.004757,-0.007707,0.003664,0.026916,0.009518,0.002534,0.006 034,-0.001376,-0.000873,-0.000618,0.000493,-0.003133,-0.001557
Parthian-Achemenid,0.095611,0.111708,-0.069767,-0.036176,-0.047393,0.003626,-0.00235,-0.001846,-0.043155,-0.019499,0.003897,-0.002997,0.008771,0.002615,0.00095,0.009679,-0.010561,0.012922,0.006788,-0.003627,-0.003868,-0.013107,-0.004067,-0.004699,0.007664
Gedrosian-Indus:I11474,0.066017,0.05687,-0.129352,0.030362,-0.10802,0.033467,0.009635,-0.001846,-0.053585,-0.027882,-0.008607,0.006145,-0.007879,-0.015138,0.021037,0.032882,-0.004433,-0.00228,0.007668,-0.022761,0.009608,-0.015951,0.001849,-0.019039,0.00491
Gedrosian-Indus:I11476,0.087644,0.089367,-0.106725,-0.002584,-0.098172,0.014502,0.012221,-0.010615,-0.069538,-0.042461,-0.008282,-0.003297,-0.005649,-0.011973,0.014929,0.037655,0.007953,0.001394,0.006 285,-0.013256,0.005241,-0.019413,-0.002218,-0.013616,0.010777
North_Indo-Aryan,0.079676,0.023357,-0.090132,0.064277,-0.061242,0.039602,0.005405,-0.010615,-0.02352,-0.010752,0.007145,0.008093,0.009663,-0.018854,0.008143,0.024396,0.012908,-0.000507,-0.004022,-0.001876,0.007612,-0.014715,0.011462,-0.009158,0.009819
South_Indo-Aryan,0.05805,-0.037575,-0.140666,0.083334,-0.072937,0.051874,0.00893,0.004384,0.002659,0.0122 1,-0.000325,0.01079,-0.015461,-0.002064,0.006243,0.015248,0.012126,-0.001647,-0.002514,-0.006503,-0.007237,0.007914,-0.013188,-0.018798,-0.009819
South-Indian-Hunter_Gatherer,-0.018211,-0.29793,-0.24996,0.25357,-0.057892,0.10839,-0.018488,0.019672,0.18097,0.13058,-0.034219,0.017465,-0.010408,0.035531,-0.01651,-0.030593,0.034611,-0.004048,0.005598,0.035085,-0.00062,0.026037,-0.008467,0.028244,-0.030344
Dravidian:I6946,0.015935,-0.126941,-0.172721,0.121772,-0.061858,0.066655,-0.007755,0.008769,0.062993,0.035718,0.012991,-0.003447,0.004162,0.017891,-0.009093,-0.019093,0.004303,0,-0.012318,0.02126,-0.004742,0.008161,0.002218,0.00976,-0.000479
Dravidian:I6942,0.017073,-0.116786,-0.18592,0.133723,-0.070475,0.071954,-0.00282,0.020999,0.069743,0.045377,-0.003085,0.004346,-0.000892,0.004542,-0.007736,-0.006629,0.002347,-0.004941,0.003268,0.012006,0.001248,0.006059,-0.002588,0.00494,-0.010777
Armeni,0.101303,0.118817,-0.018479,0.002261,-0.038161,0.00753,0.0047,-0.001615,-0.048881,-0.017312,0.001461,0.003747,-0.007582,-0.001651,0.008279,0.002652,0.001304,-0.003167,0.012318,0.012756,0.006863,-0.004081,0.013927,-0.010965,-0.002155
Colchian_Caucasian,0.106994,0.127957,-0.069767,-0.034884,-0.053241,-0.004741,0.012926,-0.007615,-0.07281,-0.036812,-0.002761,0.01094,-0.02438,0.002615,0.002579,-0.022142,0.013299,-0.004054,-0.016592,0.018759,0.017968,0.004822,0.000616,-0.014942,-0.013412
Colchian_Caucasian,0.103579,0.139128,-0.065996,-0.0323,-0.05201,-0.002231,0.016216,-0.006,-0.071583,-0.03098,0.003573,0.017534,-0.030475,-0.002615,0.005565,-0.018165,0.01369,-0.00076,-0.008799,0.015132,0.021213,-0.005193,-0.013804,-0.018195,-0.002275
Thracian,0.135449,0.138112,0.015462,-0.012274,0.020927,-0.008088,0.00235,-0.007384,-0.006545,0.034625,0.000487,0.008542,-0.008325,-0.008533,-0.014522,0.005171,0.025946,-0.000127,0.011439,0.005878,-0.019091,0.007666,0.004067,0.011929,-0.000239
Ancient-Macedonian,0.126344,0.157407,0.007165,-0.051034,0.029852,-0.02259,0.00423,-0.001385,0.007772,0.032074,-0.001461,0.005695,-0.013974,-0.003028,-0.015065,-0.001458,0.01369,0.006968,0.006285,-0.014757,-0.006239,0.004699,-0.007888,0.003494,-0.008861
Greco-Latin,0.118376,0.156392,-0.001131,-0.05168,0.020004,-0.01506,-0.004465,-0.004615,0.002863,0.030069,0.002598,0.007793,-0.012636,-0.002064,-0.012486,0.007027,0.019818,-0.002787,0.000251,-0.001126,-0.000624,0.004699,-0.001602,0.002651,-0.000359
Greek_Mycenaean,0.119514,0.160454,-0.006788,-0.068476,0.014464,-0.03514,-0.003055,-0.006923,-0.002863,0.050115,0.004384,0.015137,-0.009366,0.00289,-0.019815,-0.005304,0.024643,0.007601,0.020992,-0.000375,-0.007487,-0.012365,-0.010969,-0.000602,-0.001796
Greek_Mycenaean,0.110408,0.160454,-0.015462,-0.071383,0.029544,-0.038487,-0.003525,0.004154,0.013499,0.056129,0.018025,0.017 235,-0.00223,-0.00234,-0.023208,-0.005038,0.031553,0.003421,0.005908,-0.004002,-0.006613,0.003215,-0.016145,-0.007109,-0.003113
Greek_Mycenaean,0.091058,0.150298,-0.004148,-0.050388,0.022773,-0.013387,0.007285,-0.006692,0.003068,0.041003,-0.003573,0.019333,-0.020218,0.005505,-0.006515,-0.026518,0.00678,-0.003167,0.012193,-0.008629,-0.002995,-0.006306,-0.000616,0.005904,0.006945
Greek_Mycenaean,0.110408,0.15436,-0.006034,-0.068476,0.020004,-0.021475,-0.00282,0.000923,0.007976,0.042097,0.003248,0.0160 36,-0.019326,-0.008533,-0.016015,-0.002387,0.021122,0.006588,0.010182,-0.002876,-0.006364,0.016199,0.001356,0.006386,-0.00491
Illyrian,0.132035,0.151314,0.033941,-0.01615,0.024928,-0.005857,-0.006345,0.007154,0.003681,0.028976,0.001786,0.011 69,-0.02111,-0.001376,-0.005972,-0.008486,-0.006519,0.004941,0.005531,-0.014257,-0.001872,0.00507,0.001479,0.00253,0.003353
Etruscan,0.126344,0.149283,0.034318,-0.007752,0.036622,-0.005299,0.003995,-0.004615,0.014726,0.028793,-0.002111,0.015286,-0.01115,-0.002064,-0.00285,0.003182,0.006258,0.007221,0.012318,-0.002626,-0.003369,0.008037,0.000863,-0.000482,-0.001796
Roman-Latini,0.126344,0.152329,0.034318,-0.014535,0.054164,-0.01506,-0.001175,0.005307,0.019634,0.041914,0.005196,0.010 79,-0.011001,-0.005643,0.004479,-0.016441,-0.010822,-0.001394,0.006662,-0.01113,0.007736,0.007172,-0.007641,-0.00241,0.008981
Roman-Latini,0.133173,0.156392,0.0445,-0.00969,0.044008,-0.004462,0.00846,0.003,0.024543,0.044101,-0.002598,0.012289,-0.022448,-0.009634,-0.005429,-0.005834,0.00352,0.003167,0.006034,-0.007379,-0.008859,0.005317,-0.000863,-0.006989,-0.001796
Picentini,0.125205,0.138112,0.030547,-0.010982,0.023081,-0.011713,0.002115,-0.001846,0.006954,0.021139,0.008119,0.005845,-0.011596,-0.000826,-0.007465,-0.01432,-0.011604,0.005194,0.002765,-0.00988,-0.009733,0.001607,-0.002465,0.003976,-0.005508
Ligurian,0.12862,0.145221,0.04714,0.005491,0.04616 2,0.00251,-0.00282,0.002769,0.021475,0.039727,-0.002923,0.012289,-0.021407,-0.016239,0.012622,0.000398,-0.003129,0.003421,0.00176,-0.001251,0.004492,0.003586,-0.00456,-0.003976,0.000239
Celtiberian:I3758,0.125205,0.146236,0.06675,0.0138 89,0.053241,0.003347,-0.004465,0.002308,0.030474,0.034989,0.001624,0.008 393,-0.017691,-0.00812,0.013843,-0.007292,-0.02047,0.00114,-0.00352,-0.002751,0.003494,0.000618,-0.008134,-0.016508,-0.002994
Celtiberian:I3759,0.125205,0.140143,0.063356,0.009 044,0.062781,0.003347,-0.00235,0.006692,0.02168,0.034989,-0.006008,0.009292,-0.016204,-0.008945,0.0076,0.007425,0.003912,0.000633,0.00326 8,0.001251,0.012977,0.004081,-0.006039,-0.007109,-0.009221
Iberian,0.118376,0.152329,0.051288,0.004522,0.0649 35,-0.003347,-0.014101,0.005538,0.030679,0.049022,-0.002273,0.014237,-0.017245,-0.017203,0.005293,0.001989,0.012386,-0.005068,-0.001006,-0.004377,0.006863,0.000124,0.001972,-0.012893,-0.000359
Iberian,0.121791,0.15436,0.05242,-0.002261,0.059703,-0.008646,-0.00564,0.003231,0.032928,0.05212,-0.006171,0.011839,-0.031962,-0.003578,0.004343,0.001591,0.011474,0.002154,-0.003142,-0.002376,0.002246,0.001607,-0.016392,-0.018195,0.002874
Celtic,0.133173,0.123895,0.077687,0.042313,0.05262 5,0.002231,0.00282,0.000462,0.016157,0.01549,-0.011692,-0.010641,-0.00223,0.004404,0.004479,0.006895,0.006258,-0.000253,0.003771,0.014507,-0.007736,-0.002102,0.003204,-0.00494,-0.001676
Celtic,0.125205,0.144205,0.050911,0.029716,0.04862 4,0.00251,0.003525,0.005077,0.005318,0.010934,0.01 088,-0.004796,-0.000149,0.009496,-0.011129,-0.015778,-0.011083,0.007095,0.003771,-0.003627,-0.012977,-0.008656,-0.001725,-0.006266,-0.010298
Celtic-Gaulish,0.124067,0.151314,0.063356,0.026163,0.0437 ,0.005857,0.001175,0.002308,0.020861,0.02442,-0.012342,0.00015,-0.01665,-0.003165,0.014658,-0.009546,-0.018254,0.003801,0.005908,0.001626,0.009858,0.006 059,-0.004437,-0.005904,-0.005269
Celtic-Gaelic,0.125205,0.125926,0.062979,0.069445,0.02523 5,0.028168,0.004935,0.000462,0.001227,-0.007289,-0.002598,0.010341,-0.012636,-0.01156,0.023751,0.008884,-0.013299,0.010515,0.004274,0.007253,0.00262,0.0038 33,-0.001972,0.015424,-0.005029
Celtic-Pict,0.130897,0.140143,0.060716,0.052649,0.042162, 0.017291,0.00705,0.003692,0.00634,0.001822,-0.00682,0.004946,-0.019326,-0.016652,0.020765,0.018563,-0.009127,0.003421,0.004148,0.009379,0.008485,0.007 543,0.002711,0.006145,0.007784
Celtic-Briton,0.132035,0.138112,0.057699,0.053295,0.03877 6,0.017291,0.001645,0.003,0.007976,0.00328,-0.00682,0.005845,-0.015609,-0.017478,0.025108,0.011403,0.001434,-0.005194,-0.000754,0.006503,0.00836,-0.005812,-0.004437,0.013496,-0.005029
Proto-Balt,0.122929,0.126941,0.092395,0.098515,0.042469, 0.034582,-0.00188,0.010153,-0.000614,-0.04975,-0.000812,-0.018583,0.013082,0.032066,-0.0095,-0.000398,-0.006389,0.003041,-0.00817,-0.001251,-0.002496,0.005193,0.002342,-0.021328,0.00946
Proto-Balt,0.135449,0.129988,0.089755,0.089471,0.038469, 0.038208,0.016451,0.011999,-0.005727,-0.047017,-0.003573,-0.017085,0.017393,0.021744,-0.009772,-0.006762,-0.011213,0.002154,-0.001634,0.002626,-0.004367,-0.00272,-0.001356,-0.007591,0.008861
Proto-German,0.133173,0.125926,0.076933,0.061047,0.04123 8,0.021196,0.002585,0.006461,0.000205,-0.012028,-0.000974,0.004046,-0.000297,-0.006331,0.018051,0.013259,0.009648,0.001647,-0.000754,0.00075,0.002371,0.000371,0.005176,0.0128 93,0.001437
Proto-German,0.129758,0.131003,0.084475,0.078489,0.04154 6,0.020638,-0.004465,0.017768,-0.005931,-0.011663,-0.011854,0.007493,-0.006244,-0.007844,0.020765,-0.005038,-0.015255,-0.005321,0.00176,0.008004,0.008235,-0.004328,-0.003944,0.005302,-0.012214
Proto-German,0.127482,0.120848,0.072784,0.070414,0.04277 7,0.031794,0.00611,0.014307,0.009817,-0.022051,-0.001461,-0.001349,0.00892,0.012386,0.012893,-0.007558,-0.01708,0.002027,0.00176,0.001626,0.001497,0.00507 ,0.006902,-0.000241,0.00467
Saami,0.097888,-0.129988,0.121056,0.103683,-0.059088,-0.000837,-0.00235,0.003231,0.005727,-0.053577,0.035401,-0.01079,0.023786,-0.049544,-0.005972,0.009016,-0.003912,-0.001394,-0.004022,0.001751,0.007112,0.00643,0.006655,-0.018436,0.001557
Saami,0.092197,-0.136081,0.121433,0.114666,-0.061858,-0.001952,-0.00658,-0.005077,-0.001432,-0.040274,0.035888,-0.009142,0.021407,-0.04514,-0.002036,0.012596,-0.004303,0.004687,0,0.008254,0.005615,0.004699,0.0 08751,-0.022533,-0.000958
Finn,0.127482,0.089367,0.102954,0.102391,0.035083, 0.03263,0.00799,0.016153,-0.007158,-0.046835,0.011205,-0.019782,0.02884,0.000275,-0.005293,0.008221,0.021513,0.000633,-0.000628,0.006128,-0.000125,0.000247,-0.00456,-0.01687,0.001916
West_Scythian,0.106994,0.066009,0.032055,0.055233, 0.001846,0.015897,-0.000235,0.018922,-0.009817,-0.016037,0.003085,-0.002098,-0.007136,-0.003165,0.008143,0.014717,0.010431,0.011149,-0.010684,0.002376,0.000374,-0.009892,0.003328,0.004458,-0.005029
West_Scythian,0.114961,0.093429,0.036581,0.03876,0 .000615,0.005299,0.001645,0.006,-0.006954,-0.015855,0.001299,-3e-04,-0.004906,-0.004679,0.009229,0.007558,-0.00013,-0.00114,0.001131,0.001626,-0.002246,0.001607,-0.004683,-0.011206,0.00455
West_Scythian,0.10927,0.081242,0.028661,0.050065,-0.00677,0.014781,0.013631,0.011769,-0.011658,-0.008018,-0.021598,-0.01109,0.015907,-0.009771,0.003664,0.004773,-0.005476,0.002534,-0.006913,0.007754,-0.018717,-0.009892,-0.008997,-0.004217,0.007784
West_Scythian,0.10927,0.060932,0.027907,0.03553,-0.001539,0.01506,-0.000705,-0.011769,-0.006136,-0.011481,-0.010068,0.000749,-0.024083,-0.01445,0.01045,-0.018032,-0.004824,0.001267,-0.004902,0.000125,-0.007487,-0.00507,-0.000739,0.00012,-0.008502
Cimerian,0.106994,0.002031,0.023759,0.033592,-0.031698,0.00251,0.004465,0.006923,-0.028633,-0.030251,-0.009581,0.001798,0,-0.018029,0.021172,0.00769,0.009518,0.002914,0.0114 39,-0.014382,-0.012603,-0.005564,-0.003821,0.011568,0.006466
Sarmatian,0.10927,0.015233,0.041483,0.068153,-0.03139,0.019522,-0.003055,-0.010846,-0.029656,-0.031162,-0.006658,0.000599,-0.008771,-0.012937,0.014658,0.008486,0.000782,0.006968,-0.004399,0.000625,0.003619,0.001113,0.000739,-0.000602,-0.000599
Scythian,0.0774,-0.078196,0.057699,0.047158,-0.039084,0.007809,-0.004465,0.000231,-0.01718,-0.017677,-0.008282,-0.006444,-0.00773,-0.020919,0.012079,0.009149,-0.005085,-0.006334,0.006662,-0.003377,-0.01722,0.00915,-0.003944,0.009278,0.006706
Scythian,0.083091,-0.096475,0.061471,0.046189,-0.042777,0.005857,0.0047,0.001154,-0.010635,-0.020957,-0.018999,-0.008243,0.001338,-0.020781,0.017372,0.009016,-0.014342,0.004561,-0.003017,-0.003877,-0.020339,0.011871,-0.001109,-0.007712,-0.00479
Kushan,0.095611,0.016248,-0.012822,0.043282,-0.054472,0.007251,-0.001645,-0.000462,-0.030679,-0.030069,-0.003735,0.001798,0,-0.015138,0.004479,0.00769,0.001173,0.004561,0.0043 99,-0.009129,-0.013851,0.003833,-0.004067,-0.001566,-0.001437
Hun-Sarmatian:DA20,0.039838,-0.406212,0.092772,-0.025194,-0.087401,-0.046296,0.019976,0.016153,0.004704,0.009841,-0.012666,0.00015,-0.01115,0.000138,-0.001764,-0.006099,-0.001043,-0.000127,-0.001885,0.007754,-0.01959,0.006183,-0.019227,-0.002289,-0.002155
Finno-Ugric_Taiga_Hunter-Gatherer,0.094473,-0.01828,0.041106,0.047481,-0.048932,0.014502,-0.002115,-0.010615,-0.025361,-0.024602,-0.000974,0.002248,0.002081,-0.026561,0.015608,0.030496,0.005607,-0.001774,0.006411,0.007253,-0.018093,0.004822,0.009983,0.002048,-0.008981
Paleo-siberian_Taiga_Hunter-Gatherers,0.044391,-0.366606,0.102577,0.025194,-0.096633,-0.037092,-0.042537,-0.039921,0.001432,-0.004009,0.023546,-0.000599,-0.000743,-0.01445,-0.024973,-0.015646,-0.008605,0.01723,0.034818,0.022011,0.030945,-0.051934,0.012941,0.024461,0.023231
Paleo-siberian_Taiga_Hunter-Gatherers,0.043253,-0.324969,0.09956,0.024225,-0.085862,-0.033467,-0.037367,-0.042921,0.002863,-0.008018,0.016401,-0.005395,0.005203,-0.018441,-0.023208,-0.010475,-0.001304,0.011149,0.034567,0.014132,0.022835,-0.052058,0.008134,0.022292,0.021914
East_Paleo-siberian_Taiga_Hunter-Gatherers,0.029594,-0.437693,0.075801,-0.030685,-0.068936,-0.041834,0.005405,0.020768,0.011249,0.018588,-0.037674,-0.002098,-0.00996,0.005643,0.005293,0.00358,-0.00326,0.000633,-0.001006,0.02076,-0.021712,-0.001855,-0.023294,-0.009158,0.00012
East_Paleo-siberian_Taiga_Hunter-Gatherers,0.029594,-0.437693,0.086738,-0.030039,-0.063089,-0.051316,0.019271,0.021922,0.012885,0.016766,-0.038648,0.00045,-0.001635,0.00055,-0.003936,-0.000265,0.004433,-0.003167,-0.002011,0.01063,-0.029074,-0.001607,-0.02884,-0.008796,0.000718
East_Paleo-siberian_Taiga_Hunter-Gatherers,0.028456,-0.433631,0.085984,-0.029716,-0.070167,-0.040439,0.011751,0.019384,0.013499,0.012574,-0.036375,-0.003147,-0.001041,-0.010322,-0.00285,-0.00305,0.001565,-0.00266,0.000503,0.022761,-0.038807,0.001855,-0.020706,-0.003615,0.001916
East_Paleo-siberian_Taiga_Hunter-Gatherers,0.026179,-0.4316,0.078441,-0.030039,-0.072321,-0.048527,0.011281,0.017307,0.014317,0.016583,-0.041084,-0.004796,-0.00446,-0.003028,-0.001221,-0.009149,-0.001173,-0.004561,-0.001131,0.016383,-0.021213,0.015333,-0.018241,-0.010604,0.007424
Tungusic_Hunter-Gatherer,0.022765,-0.468159,0.093149,-0.044251,-0.088632,-0.05271,0.013866,0.025614,0.006749,0.020046,-0.039948,0.001499,-0.006244,0.021882,0.003122,-0.002917,0.001434,-0.003674,0.01081,0.034016,-0.029822,-0.029306,-0.050408,-0.005784,-0.003832
East_Turco-Mongolic_transhumant_pastoralits,0.062603,-0.213261,0.059585,0.025194,-0.049855,-0.004183,0.00235,0.017076,-0.000614,-0.007836,-0.014615,-0.001649,0.003568,-0.027662,0.009093,0.007292,-0.000782,-0.001394,-0.001885,0.004252,-0.015223,0.012984,-0.01023,0.000361,0.001317
East_Turco-Mongolic_transhumant_pastoralits,0.067156,-0.195997,0.069013,0.02907,-0.054779,-0.015339,-0.001645,-0.001385,-0.00859,-0.011663,-0.016239,-0.003147,0.001784,-0.016239,0.006922,0.01074,0.00013,-0.004307,-0.005154,0.007629,-0.026453,0.004204,0.000986,0.00482,0.005628
Central_Turco-Mongolic_transhumant_pastoralits,0.056912,-0.188888,0.033187,0.033915,-0.029236,0.007809,-0.00564,-0.013615,-0.012067,-0.015308,-0.022247,-0.006744,0.01219,-0.021469,0.013572,0.008353,0.000782,0.008108,-0.008925,0.00075,-0.011979,0.003215,-0.008134,0,0.002634
Central_Turco-Mongolic_transhumant_pastoralits,0.0774,-0.175687,0.059585,0.013889,-0.050471,0.016455,-0.011045,-0.008769,-0.016362,-0.034989,-0.02241,0.005545,0.008176,-0.009771,0.007736,0.005569,-0.008605,-0.009248,0.004651,0.007379,-0.0141,0.000371,0.012078,-0.006266,-0.004431
Zhou,0.022765,-0.441755,0.009428,-0.061693,0.059396,0.028168,0.005405,-0.004846,-0.016362,0.001458,-0.082818,-0.008692,0.014271,-0.013074,-0.006107,0.000133,0.008605,0.003674,-0.006662,-0.013882,0.02009,0.007419,0.004807,-0.007953,0.001197
Gojoseon-Korean:91KLH11,0.027318,-0.442771,0.024513,-0.065892,0.016311,-0.005578,0.00141,0.016384,-0.00225,0.005285,-0.064468,-0.001199,0.00996,-0.001101,-0.005157,0.000928,0,-0.006841,-0.004651,0.003252,0.005366,0.002473,-0.004807,-0.00494,-0.010658
Gojoseon-Korean:91KLH18,0.021626,-0.452926,0.029415,-0.05814,0.018773,0,-0.001175,0.004615,-0.004295,0.009659,-0.067391,-3e-04,0.011298,-0.000963,-0.013165,-0.002784,0.005476,0.003801,0.002891,-0.009254,0.012478,-0.002473,0.006655,-0.000723,0.003233
Burmese,0.002276,-0.380824,-0.079195,-0.03553,0.148643,0.06777,-0.00047,-0.013615,0.00409,-0.020593,0.082006,0.007643,-0.022002,0.005643,0.004614,-0.004375,0.000782,-0.001774,-0.006411,0.019509,-0.011854,0.014096,-0.008627,-0.005663,0.036643
Tibetan,0.012521,-0.410274,-0.011691,-0.031331,0.017542,0.011435,0.00658,0.011999,0.0100 22,0.021139,-0.081194,-0.006444,0.010109,-0.004679,-0.011401,0,0.011213,-0.001267,-0.009302,0.009379,0.004991,0.029306,0.004314,0.003 615,0.031734
Dong_Son,0.034147,-0.391994,-0.034695,-0.05491,0.126485,0.039602,0.00047,-0.013615,-0.023725,-0.005103,0.018837,0.006444,0.008176,-0.00812,-0.007329,0.014585,-0.011083,0.008108,-0.012821,-0.006378,0.002246,0.017311,-0.002835,-0.005663,-0.006945
Dong_Son,0.043253,-0.370668,-0.046386,-0.059755,0.139411,0.071675,-0.001175,-0.011769,-0.023316,-0.002734,0.033939,-0.012139,0.006392,-0.016239,0.006107,0.005834,-0.00691,0.010262,0.015084,-0.018759,0.0141,0.002473,0.014666,0.014701,0.01125 6
Austro-Asiatic_Rice_farmers,0.011382,-0.388948,-0.050534,-0.042959,0.12033,0.069165,-0.006345,-0.002077,0.004704,-0.024966,0.047255,0.003147,-0.014271,-0.007432,0.002986,-0.007425,0.013169,-0.004687,-0.002514,0.014257,0.004866,0.018672,-0.013434,-0.001325,0.04287
Austronesian_Farmers,0,-0.395041,-0.084098,-0.034561,0.154183,0.068049,-0.007285,-0.010615,-0.005522,-0.018224,0.090938,0.017834,-0.015163,0.006331,0.006922,-0.001061,-0.001695,-0.006841,-0.003394,0.019259,-0.01697,0.012984,-0.009737,0.00723,0.048379
Thais,0.012521,-0.395041,-0.046386,-0.023256,0.122792,0.048248,-0.00282,0.002077,-0.015953,-0.006014,0.020461,-0.003897,-0.004311,0.007432,0,-0.000663,-0.00013,-0.006334,-0.00352,0.02151,-0.007487,0.013973,-0.017131,0.005181,0.02862
Thais,0.001138,-0.397072,-0.031301,-0.042636,0.104019,0.048248,0.002115,0.003461,-0.0045,-0.00656,0.013316,0.002548,-0.004608,0.002202,0.003664,0.001989,0.002347,-0.005448,-0.00264,0.013632,-0.001622,0.024236,-0.001849,0.008917,0.045385
Thais,0.007968,-0.401134,-0.037712,-0.046189,0.085862,0.046017,0.00329,-0.011999,-0.001636,-0.011845,0.024196,0.007643,-0.005946,-0.001101,0.005157,0.004641,-0.002608,-0.001647,-0.003268,0.011506,-0.010482,0.026833,0.01023,0.010122,0.037721
Jomon,0.011382,-0.339187,-0.051666,0.01615,0.040623,0.008925,-0.00564,-0.002538,0.019021,0.01877,-0.051964,-0.002098,0.007433,-0.011285,-0.023344,-0.013657,0.005737,0.010769,0.005531,-0.012756,0.066882,-0.041671,0.01442,0.01217,-0.099752
Arctic_Marine_Mamels_hunters,0.01935,-0.448864,0.067127,-0.049742,-0.041238,-0.046017,0.00846,0.003,0.003681,0.024602,-0.054563,-0.001798,-0.001933,0.012799,-0.010858,-0.005569,0.002477,0.000127,0.017849,0.012631,0.014 599,-0.029553,-0.019843,-0.000843,-0.010538
Arctic_Marine_Mamels_hunters,0.025041,-0.446833,0.069013,-0.050065,-0.037545,-0.036256,0.002115,0.008307,0.007772,0.024237,-0.04417,-0.002997,-0.002081,0.003578,-0.009772,-0.01074,0.004563,0.007095,0.015838,0.005503,0.0086 1,-0.020155,-0.01442,-0.001205,-0.017364
Arctic_Marine_Mamels_hunters,0.006829,-0.439724,0.07467,-0.051357,-0.03693,-0.036256,-0.007755,0.010384,0.012271,0.014943,-0.040922,-0.008992,-0.013082,0.008808,-0.005429,-0.01896,0.005998,0.01875,0.016341,0.012131,0.00087 3,-0.035365,-0.01405,-0.008314,-0.017962
Arctic_Marine_Mamels_hunters,0.013659,-0.44074,0.078064,-0.053295,-0.033852,-0.039602,0.01081,0.01223,0.00225,0.01385,-0.054725,-0.005545,0.004757,0.009496,-0.012351,-0.018297,-0.016168,0.009628,0.019735,0.00988,0.01123,-0.025843,-0.021568,0.000602,-0.012454
Greenlander_East,0.061464,-0.312783,0.118416,0.04845,-0.106481,-0.031236,-0.1168,-0.134994,0.003681,-0.020228,0.016888,-0.006294,0.015461,-0.021332,-0.039223,-0.012198,-0.000261,0.014316,0.032304,0.016633,0.028075,-0.048101,0.007272,0.031932,0.042511
Greenlander_West,0.067156,-0.267084,0.106725,0.056525,-0.09294,-0.020917,-0.094239,-0.110534,0.003272,-0.015855,0.019811,-0.005395,0.006392,-0.007156,-0.023208,-0.013259,-0.018645,0.012542,0.027528,0.014507,0.020339,-0.044886,0.000739,0.028076,0.037362
Subartic_Forest_Hunter-Gatherer,0.088782,-0.137096,0.098051,0.062985,-0.049548,-0.003068,-0.063923,-0.081458,-0.000818,-0.030433,0.00406,-0.009442,0.017096,-0.000963,-0.026873,-0.002784,0.005085,0.001647,0.00817,0.007629,-0.001622,-0.023494,0.001232,0.006386,0.020717
North_West-Pacific_Amerindian_Hunters-Fisher1:HGDP01037,0.054635,-0.303643,0.103331,0.085918,-0.107712,-0.014781,-0.263447,-0.316833,-0.012271,-0.014761,0.001137,0.004046,-0.000446,0.021607,-0.007465,0.012066,0.007432,0.009628,0.003394,-0.002876,-0.006114,0.007048,-0.008874,0.005543,0.002994
North_East_Amerindian_Woodland-Hunter-Gatherer:S_North_East_Amerindian-1,0.079676,-0.170609,0.089755,0.055556,-0.061858,-0.003626,-0.131841,-0.161762,-0.006954,-0.015672,0.002761,-0.00045,0.00669,-0.00055,-0.010722,0.004906,0.010561,0.003167,0.003268,0.004 377,-0.007612,-0.005812,0.006409,0.008194,-0.005628
North_East_Amerindian_Woodland-Hunter-Gatherer:S_North_East_Amerindian-2,0.071709,-0.207168,0.103708,0.069445,-0.078784,-0.015897,-0.169208,-0.192915,-0.001023,-0.014214,-0.00065,-0.003447,0.000892,0.004817,-0.004614,0.002254,0.004824,0.001394,0.003897,0.007 754,-0.002995,-0.004699,0.007395,0.010724,0.005029
Caribean_Hunter-Gatherer,0.050082,-0.316845,0.114645,0.102068,-0.114791,-0.014502,-0.307629,-0.359523,-0.009613,-0.019499,-0.005034,-0.002698,-0.002081,0.015276,-0.002307,0.00305,0.008214,0.003547,-0.001006,0.002501,0.002496,0.004946,-0.007148,-0.001446,-0.010538
Andean-Pacific_Amerindian,0.061464,-0.314814,0.115022,0.09367,-0.108328,-0.017291,-0.285068,-0.33714,-0.014317,-0.014397,0.000812,-0.001049,0.000892,0.017616,-0.007465,0.006629,0.007823,0,-0.002137,-0.003126,-0.004492,0.00371,-0.002218,0.003133,-0.00455
Mesoamerica_Pacific_Amerindian,0.053497,-0.312783,0.109365,0.094639,-0.11356,-0.014223,-0.286008,-0.342678,-0.012476,-0.015308,-0.005846,0.000749,-0.002379,0.021744,-0.005157,0.00358,0.000522,0.002914,0.001383,-0.002126,0.00025,0.009892,-0.000616,-0.003253,0
Mesoamerica_Pacific_Amerindian,0.050082,-0.303643,0.112759,0.098192,-0.103096,-0.01506,-0.273787,-0.332294,-0.008181,-0.017677,-0.008444,-0.009292,-0.000297,0.024359,-0.00095,-0.008486,-0.00352,-0.000887,0.015461,-0.003126,-0.004742,0.005193,0.005546,-0.000361,-0.000479
Amazonian_Manioc-Farmer:HGDP00843,0.053497,-0.311768,0.11653,0.11079,-0.119407,-0.026216,-0.33489,-0.398983,-0.019839,-0.022962,0.006496,-0.007943,0.005798,0.039635,-0.016151,0.000133,0.009127,-0.00266,-0.006788,0.001,-0.004118,0.012365,-0.010599,-0.00976,-0.007185
Polynesian,-0.030732,-0.280286,-0.183658,0.179912,0.159414,-0.2867,-0.00564,0.004846,-0.016975,-0.011845,0.007145,0.002398,-0.001635,-0.006468,-0.001357,0.001591,0.00352,0.000507,-0.001634,-0.007253,-0.004492,-0.0115,-0.002095,-0.008073,-0.017603
Polynesian,-0.0387,-0.243727,-0.214582,0.239021,0.168955,-0.393794,0.001645,0.010615,-0.022498,-0.012028,-0.002761,0.007343,0.009366,-0.007432,-0.0095,-0.001061,-0.000391,0.002534,0.00264,0.009254,-0.000749,0.000866,-0.002711,-0.014701,-0.013292
Proto-Polynesian:I1368_all,0.007968,-0.415352,-0.050157,-0.055233,0.139718,0.062472,-0.01081,-0.019845,-0.017385,-0.022051,0.063007,0.004196,-0.016055,0.017753,0.024294,0.014585,-0.009909,0.00152,0.011439,-0.01088,0.006738,-0.020279,0.003081,-0.013014,-0.06215
Proto-Polynesian:I1369_all,0.004553,-0.428553,-0.045254,-0.066861,0.153259,0.05522,-0.002115,-0.011769,-0.02577,-0.028247,0.051477,0.001499,0.000297,-0.000688,0.016422,0.016839,-0.005607,0.00114,0.011439,-0.007253,0.004367,-0.035983,-0.006162,-0.021569,-0.064186

Levantine_Viking
01-26-2022, 12:41 AM
Slim bens Iron Age 2.0

West_African_Cereal-Farmer:HGDP00915,-0.599848,0.064994,0.017348,0.008721,0.002462,0.008 646,-0.042302,0.034152,-0.03027,0.02606,0.003897,0.004646,0.024975,-0.002477,0.014658,-0.016839,0.007302,0.004561,-0.00264,-0.003126,-0.002496,-0.005317,0.000863,-0.002651,-0.002874
Nilo-Saharian_Pastoralist,-0.593342,0.04687,0.000936,-0.00969,-0.007386,-0.003666,-0.01658,0.014769,0.075674,-0.113898,-0.022478,0.038924,-0.049207,-0.000046,0.005065,-0.020419,0.028645,-0.020507,0.042877,-0.027138,0.002496,0.007172,-0.017238,-0.010241,0.004071
Bantu_Cereal_Farmer,-0.613507,0.061947,0.023004,0.010659,0.008001,0.013 108,0.009165,-0.000231,-0.019839,0.009476,0.011692,-0.000599,-0.008771,0.012661,-0.008279,0.023071,-0.010561,0.051436,-0.03243,-0.001,0,0.002473,0.00949,-0.011447,-0.003233
Bantu_Cereal_Farmer,-0.633995,0.054839,0.021873,0.021641,-0.000615,0.008925,0.001645,0.004615,-0.020043,0.007107,0.002923,-0.002248,-0.017839,-0.003165,-0.016015,0.020551,-0.001173,0.033192,-0.009553,0.006878,-0.002246,0.000124,-0.000739,0.002048,0.005987
Bantu_Cereal_Farmer,-0.623751,0.072103,0.013953,0.015827,0.004616,0.005 02,0.007755,-0.003923,-0.024543,0.012392,0.004872,-0.005245,-0.007433,-0.002202,-0.016286,0.01074,-0.005607,0.045355,-0.01898,0.000375,-0.004118,-0.003586,0.002588,-0.004458,0.000479
Bantu_Cereal_Farmer,-0.631718,0.064994,0.026398,0.014212,0.003693,0.011 713,0.00423,0.003923,-0.029451,0.010387,0.003248,-0.004196,-0.007284,0.000138,-0.010043,0.012861,-0.012908,0.037373,-0.01898,0.003627,-0.003494,0.000124,0.002465,-0.00494,0.000838
East_Bantu_Cereal_Farmer:I2298,-0.616921,0.066009,0.021119,0.011305,0.004001,0.013 108,-0.00987,0.016153,-0.020248,0.002187,0.000812,0.007943,-0.014717,0.003165,-0.019272,0.005304,-0.014212,0.00266,-0.006034,0.006503,0.004118,0.003957,0.001849,0.005 663,0.003233
South_West_African_Hunter-Gatherer,-0.641962,0.057885,0.023381,0.031008,0.001539,0.008 925,0.165212,-0.127841,-0.023929,0.039545,0.012179,-0.133831,-0.045787,-0.004129,0.003122,-0.006364,-0.001304,-0.029265,0.005531,-0.003377,0.006863,0.000742,-0.001109,0.000482,0.000359
Ethiopian_Highland_Farmer,-0.423422,0.076165,-0.011691,-0.042313,0.001231,-0.027889,-0.00282,0.004384,0.107784,-0.089113,-0.017538,0.006744,-0.022299,0.001651,0.015744,-0.024529,0.011604,0.003674,0.012444,-0.007754,-0.000998,0.009521,-0.003697,0.000843,-0.005987
Ethiopian_Highland_Farmer,-0.400657,0.084289,-0.018479,-0.04522,0.003385,-0.025937,-0.016686,0.007384,0.106352,-0.084375,-0.016076,0.000749,-0.015609,0.003578,0.026601,-0.02254,0.018384,-0.004814,0.016718,-0.015632,0.004243,0.008779,-0.006779,-0.004097,0.003712
East_African_Pastoralist,-0.219679,0.1046,-0.033941,-0.076874,0.004001,-0.044065,-0.00329,-0.005077,0.125373,-0.069979,0,-0.015137,0.013379,0.010184,0.028094,-0.019491,0.019166,0.006968,-0.009679,0.003502,0.001747,0.000989,0.009244,0.000 482,0.003353
East_African_Pastoralist,-0.311875,0.089367,-0.026021,-0.072675,0.003385,-0.030399,-0.005405,-0.012692,0.119646,-0.092029,-0.002761,-0.009442,-0.000595,0.001376,0.019137,-0.023999,0.02386,0.006334,0.006411,-0.006628,0.003244,0.004822,-0.006655,-0.001325,0.002395
Khoisan_Hunter-Gatherers,-0.641962,0.055854,0.026021,0.034884,0.004616,-0.001116,0.267677,-0.210222,0.007567,0.01549,0.006983,-0.06729,-0.019475,0.006881,0.022394,-0.020021,0.038072,0.292144,-0.091885,0.006628,-0.033441,-0.001484,0.003204,0.001566,0.003233
Khoisan_Hunter-Gatherers,-0.644239,0.058901,0.02489,0.034884,-0.001231,-0.004183,0.262977,-0.202838,0.015135,0.014943,0.010393,-0.06759,-0.020961,0.004266,0.025244,-0.018032,0.031814,0.299238,-0.098673,0.005378,-0.030571,-0.002844,-0.00037,-0.003133,-0.002275
Khoisan_Hunter-Gatherers,-0.638548,0.052808,0.026776,0.034884,0.000308,-0.003904,0.273552,-0.208607,0.00859,0.015672,0.008769,-0.063094,-0.02438,0.00812,0.023615,-0.022408,0.032726,0.292397,-0.096662,0.006128,-0.037559,-0.007419,0.006655,-0.00723,-0.002155
Khoisan_Hunter-Gatherers,-0.639686,0.058901,0.025644,0.041344,-0.00277,-0.002789,0.267912,-0.20653,0.011658,0.016766,0.002761,-0.06744,-0.01888,0.005092,0.026058,-0.013392,0.031944,0.289737,-0.092137,0.003752,-0.035188,-0.000495,0.002835,-0.000843,-0.00934
Berber_Numidian,-0.086506,0.136081,-0.012068,-0.097869,0.035083,-0.041834,-0.039717,0.003461,0.109011,0.035718,0.008282,-0.010341,0.027205,-0.018441,0.024294,-0.030761,-0.014473,-0.032939,-0.058324,0.012506,-0.013351,-0.045628,0.024526,-0.008676,0.00467
Berber_Getuli,-0.06122,0.130143,-0.012263,-0.081086,0.0257,-0.047133,-0.026192,0.007384,0.071013,0.03283,0.022179,-0.00899,0.016987,-0.028029,0.020087,-0.016309,0.010652,-0.026596,-0.063561,0.023001,-0.021729,-0.058548,0.053064,-0.01385,0.005987
Benue_Cereal_Farmer,-0.627165,0.066009,0.021496,0.015181,0.002462,0.012 55,-0.050292,0.05169,-0.046836,0.031891,0.005359,-0.003447,0.027651,0.00234,0.015472,-0.011005,0.006258,-0.002027,0.005028,0.001751,-0.001622,-0.000124,-0.000986,0.001205,0.002155
Pre-Ptolemaic_Egyptian,0.046667,0.152329,-0.037712,-0.121126,0,-0.054384,-0.010575,-0.006231,0.048472,0.007289,0.000162,-0.010191,0.026164,0.000138,0,-0.008486,-0.007953,-0.005194,-0.00176,0.006878,0.005989,0.001237,0.005053,0.0131 34,0.006227
Pre-Ptolemaic_Egyptian,0.053497,0.141159,-0.04714,-0.115635,-0.004001,-0.04518,-0.020681,-0.003231,0.046427,0.005103,0.017863,-0.012739,0.0333,-0.011836,-0.001629,0.004375,-0.00691,0.001267,-0.005279,0.017133,0.005241,0.002102,0.002218,-0.005302,-0.007424
Nabatean:I10104,0.093335,0.146236,-0.07203,-0.102714,-0.022466,-0.032072,-0.015981,-0.021922,0.026384,0.01221,0.007632,-0.020981,0.026462,0.002752,-0.015065,-0.0118,-0.031553,0.015076,0.001508,0.016258,0.010606,-0.009027,-0.016762,-0.001446,-0.007424
Aramean:I6565,0.086506,0.149283,-0.079195,-0.107237,-0.01908,-0.049921,0.00564,0.003,0.015953,-0.002187,0.015752,-0.017385,0.021407,-0.003578,-0.007736,-0.008088,-0.011735,0.016723,0.001885,0.001751,0.00836,0.0101 4,-0.012695,-0.008194,-0.002036
Arabian_Bedouins,0.071709,0.139128,-0.062225,-0.111113,-0.008001,-0.043507,-0.011751,-0.015692,0.041723,0.009476,0.013316,-0.019782,0.049653,-0.00523,0.000814,0.028639,-0.000522,-0.00038,-0.001131,0.020135,0.006364,0.012489,-0.00419,0.003133,-0.002036
Philistin,0.080814,0.145221,-0.066373,-0.101422,-0.021542,-0.029562,-0.003055,-0.012923,0.003272,0.002005,0.012179,-0.008393,0.019475,0.003303,0.001086,0.010872,-0.00339,0.001394,0.007668,-0.003627,0.006988,0.001731,0,0.000241,0.003473
Phoenician,0.087644,0.151314,-0.055437,-0.089794,-0.018773,-0.03765,-0.00282,-0.004384,0.00859,0.012574,0.009906,-0.005395,0.016799,-0.005505,-0.007465,0.006364,0.000522,0.002787,-0.00176,-0.00025,0.004617,0.010634,-0.00912,0,-0.003113
Judean,0.087644,0.160454,-0.054682,-0.102391,-0.006155,-0.041555,-0.004935,-0.002769,0.026588,0.013668,0.019487,-0.008243,0.016204,0.030139,-0.007329,-0.007823,-0.026077,0.003421,0.006662,0.005753,-0.00861,0.013973,-0.006039,0.003374,-0.002515
Ancient_Neo-Assyrian,0.105855,0.151314,-0.043746,-0.086887,-0.009848,-0.032909,-0.003525,-0.014076,-0.010226,0.030069,0.017376,0.004496,-0.019921,0.001789,-0.012215,-0.003713,0.008605,-0.00076,0.012444,-0.007504,0.003993,0.007914,-0.006655,0.006627,-0.001317
Mittani,0.103579,0.15436,-0.035449,-0.076228,-0.001539,-0.01506,0.021151,0.002538,-0.000818,0.010752,-0.004384,0.017684,-0.003271,0.020231,-0.008007,-0.006629,-0.014864,0.004561,0.010936,-0.008254,-0.000624,-0.002844,0.005916,-0.001687,-0.007185
Hittite,0.100164,0.150298,-0.02753,-0.073967,0.004001,-0.024821,-0.006345,-0.006923,-0.001636,0.031709,0.007795,0.006294,-0.011744,-0.002202,-0.013165,0.002652,0.011995,0.001647,0.010307,-0.019384,-0.009982,0.010881,-0.004067,0.005422,-0.001557
Phrygian-Hellenestic,0.112685,0.15436,0.029038,-0.031331,0.031083,-0.011435,-0.015981,-0.020768,-0.002863,0.036629,0.012017,-0.001798,-0.015312,-0.000688,-0.032166,-0.010077,0.021774,-0.004307,0.009804,-0.02001,-0.018842,-0.005193,0.000246,-0.008676,-0.005628
Mede-Achemenid,0.09675,0.121864,-0.06939,-0.04199,-0.0437,-0.003904,0.002115,-0.004615,-0.033746,-0.014761,0.005684,0.001049,0.004757,-0.007707,0.003664,0.026916,0.009518,0.002534,0.006 034,-0.001376,-0.000873,-0.000618,0.000493,-0.003133,-0.001557
Parthian-Achemenid,0.095611,0.111708,-0.069767,-0.036176,-0.047393,0.003626,-0.00235,-0.001846,-0.043155,-0.019499,0.003897,-0.002997,0.008771,0.002615,0.00095,0.009679,-0.010561,0.012922,0.006788,-0.003627,-0.003868,-0.013107,-0.004067,-0.004699,0.007664
Gedrosian-Indus:I11474,0.066017,0.05687,-0.129352,0.030362,-0.10802,0.033467,0.009635,-0.001846,-0.053585,-0.027882,-0.008607,0.006145,-0.007879,-0.015138,0.021037,0.032882,-0.004433,-0.00228,0.007668,-0.022761,0.009608,-0.015951,0.001849,-0.019039,0.00491
Gedrosian-Indus:I11476,0.087644,0.089367,-0.106725,-0.002584,-0.098172,0.014502,0.012221,-0.010615,-0.069538,-0.042461,-0.008282,-0.003297,-0.005649,-0.011973,0.014929,0.037655,0.007953,0.001394,0.006 285,-0.013256,0.005241,-0.019413,-0.002218,-0.013616,0.010777
North_Indo-Aryan,0.079676,0.023357,-0.090132,0.064277,-0.061242,0.039602,0.005405,-0.010615,-0.02352,-0.010752,0.007145,0.008093,0.009663,-0.018854,0.008143,0.024396,0.012908,-0.000507,-0.004022,-0.001876,0.007612,-0.014715,0.011462,-0.009158,0.009819
South_Indo-Aryan,0.05805,-0.037575,-0.140666,0.083334,-0.072937,0.051874,0.00893,0.004384,0.002659,0.0122 1,-0.000325,0.01079,-0.015461,-0.002064,0.006243,0.015248,0.012126,-0.001647,-0.002514,-0.006503,-0.007237,0.007914,-0.013188,-0.018798,-0.009819
South-Indian-Hunter_Gatherer,-0.018211,-0.29793,-0.24996,0.25357,-0.057892,0.10839,-0.018488,0.019672,0.18097,0.13058,-0.034219,0.017465,-0.010408,0.035531,-0.01651,-0.030593,0.034611,-0.004048,0.005598,0.035085,-0.00062,0.026037,-0.008467,0.028244,-0.030344
Dravidian:I6946,0.015935,-0.126941,-0.172721,0.121772,-0.061858,0.066655,-0.007755,0.008769,0.062993,0.035718,0.012991,-0.003447,0.004162,0.017891,-0.009093,-0.019093,0.004303,0,-0.012318,0.02126,-0.004742,0.008161,0.002218,0.00976,-0.000479
Dravidian:I6942,0.017073,-0.116786,-0.18592,0.133723,-0.070475,0.071954,-0.00282,0.020999,0.069743,0.045377,-0.003085,0.004346,-0.000892,0.004542,-0.007736,-0.006629,0.002347,-0.004941,0.003268,0.012006,0.001248,0.006059,-0.002588,0.00494,-0.010777
Armeni,0.101303,0.118817,-0.018479,0.002261,-0.038161,0.00753,0.0047,-0.001615,-0.048881,-0.017312,0.001461,0.003747,-0.007582,-0.001651,0.008279,0.002652,0.001304,-0.003167,0.012318,0.012756,0.006863,-0.004081,0.013927,-0.010965,-0.002155
Colchian_Caucasian,0.106994,0.127957,-0.069767,-0.034884,-0.053241,-0.004741,0.012926,-0.007615,-0.07281,-0.036812,-0.002761,0.01094,-0.02438,0.002615,0.002579,-0.022142,0.013299,-0.004054,-0.016592,0.018759,0.017968,0.004822,0.000616,-0.014942,-0.013412
Colchian_Caucasian,0.103579,0.139128,-0.065996,-0.0323,-0.05201,-0.002231,0.016216,-0.006,-0.071583,-0.03098,0.003573,0.017534,-0.030475,-0.002615,0.005565,-0.018165,0.01369,-0.00076,-0.008799,0.015132,0.021213,-0.005193,-0.013804,-0.018195,-0.002275
Thracian,0.135449,0.138112,0.015462,-0.012274,0.020927,-0.008088,0.00235,-0.007384,-0.006545,0.034625,0.000487,0.008542,-0.008325,-0.008533,-0.014522,0.005171,0.025946,-0.000127,0.011439,0.005878,-0.019091,0.007666,0.004067,0.011929,-0.000239
Ancient-Macedonian,0.126344,0.157407,0.007165,-0.051034,0.029852,-0.02259,0.00423,-0.001385,0.007772,0.032074,-0.001461,0.005695,-0.013974,-0.003028,-0.015065,-0.001458,0.01369,0.006968,0.006285,-0.014757,-0.006239,0.004699,-0.007888,0.003494,-0.008861
Greco-Latin,0.118376,0.156392,-0.001131,-0.05168,0.020004,-0.01506,-0.004465,-0.004615,0.002863,0.030069,0.002598,0.007793,-0.012636,-0.002064,-0.012486,0.007027,0.019818,-0.002787,0.000251,-0.001126,-0.000624,0.004699,-0.001602,0.002651,-0.000359
Greek_Mycenaean,0.119514,0.160454,-0.006788,-0.068476,0.014464,-0.03514,-0.003055,-0.006923,-0.002863,0.050115,0.004384,0.015137,-0.009366,0.00289,-0.019815,-0.005304,0.024643,0.007601,0.020992,-0.000375,-0.007487,-0.012365,-0.010969,-0.000602,-0.001796
Greek_Mycenaean,0.110408,0.160454,-0.015462,-0.071383,0.029544,-0.038487,-0.003525,0.004154,0.013499,0.056129,0.018025,0.017 235,-0.00223,-0.00234,-0.023208,-0.005038,0.031553,0.003421,0.005908,-0.004002,-0.006613,0.003215,-0.016145,-0.007109,-0.003113
Greek_Mycenaean,0.091058,0.150298,-0.004148,-0.050388,0.022773,-0.013387,0.007285,-0.006692,0.003068,0.041003,-0.003573,0.019333,-0.020218,0.005505,-0.006515,-0.026518,0.00678,-0.003167,0.012193,-0.008629,-0.002995,-0.006306,-0.000616,0.005904,0.006945
Greek_Mycenaean,0.110408,0.15436,-0.006034,-0.068476,0.020004,-0.021475,-0.00282,0.000923,0.007976,0.042097,0.003248,0.0160 36,-0.019326,-0.008533,-0.016015,-0.002387,0.021122,0.006588,0.010182,-0.002876,-0.006364,0.016199,0.001356,0.006386,-0.00491
Illyrian,0.132035,0.151314,0.033941,-0.01615,0.024928,-0.005857,-0.006345,0.007154,0.003681,0.028976,0.001786,0.011 69,-0.02111,-0.001376,-0.005972,-0.008486,-0.006519,0.004941,0.005531,-0.014257,-0.001872,0.00507,0.001479,0.00253,0.003353
Etruscan,0.126344,0.149283,0.034318,-0.007752,0.036622,-0.005299,0.003995,-0.004615,0.014726,0.028793,-0.002111,0.015286,-0.01115,-0.002064,-0.00285,0.003182,0.006258,0.007221,0.012318,-0.002626,-0.003369,0.008037,0.000863,-0.000482,-0.001796
Roman-Latini,0.126344,0.152329,0.034318,-0.014535,0.054164,-0.01506,-0.001175,0.005307,0.019634,0.041914,0.005196,0.010 79,-0.011001,-0.005643,0.004479,-0.016441,-0.010822,-0.001394,0.006662,-0.01113,0.007736,0.007172,-0.007641,-0.00241,0.008981
Roman-Latini,0.133173,0.156392,0.0445,-0.00969,0.044008,-0.004462,0.00846,0.003,0.024543,0.044101,-0.002598,0.012289,-0.022448,-0.009634,-0.005429,-0.005834,0.00352,0.003167,0.006034,-0.007379,-0.008859,0.005317,-0.000863,-0.006989,-0.001796
Picentini,0.125205,0.138112,0.030547,-0.010982,0.023081,-0.011713,0.002115,-0.001846,0.006954,0.021139,0.008119,0.005845,-0.011596,-0.000826,-0.007465,-0.01432,-0.011604,0.005194,0.002765,-0.00988,-0.009733,0.001607,-0.002465,0.003976,-0.005508
Ligurian,0.12862,0.145221,0.04714,0.005491,0.04616 2,0.00251,-0.00282,0.002769,0.021475,0.039727,-0.002923,0.012289,-0.021407,-0.016239,0.012622,0.000398,-0.003129,0.003421,0.00176,-0.001251,0.004492,0.003586,-0.00456,-0.003976,0.000239
Celtiberian:I3758,0.125205,0.146236,0.06675,0.0138 89,0.053241,0.003347,-0.004465,0.002308,0.030474,0.034989,0.001624,0.008 393,-0.017691,-0.00812,0.013843,-0.007292,-0.02047,0.00114,-0.00352,-0.002751,0.003494,0.000618,-0.008134,-0.016508,-0.002994
Celtiberian:I3759,0.125205,0.140143,0.063356,0.009 044,0.062781,0.003347,-0.00235,0.006692,0.02168,0.034989,-0.006008,0.009292,-0.016204,-0.008945,0.0076,0.007425,0.003912,0.000633,0.00326 8,0.001251,0.012977,0.004081,-0.006039,-0.007109,-0.009221
Iberian,0.118376,0.152329,0.051288,0.004522,0.0649 35,-0.003347,-0.014101,0.005538,0.030679,0.049022,-0.002273,0.014237,-0.017245,-0.017203,0.005293,0.001989,0.012386,-0.005068,-0.001006,-0.004377,0.006863,0.000124,0.001972,-0.012893,-0.000359
Iberian,0.121791,0.15436,0.05242,-0.002261,0.059703,-0.008646,-0.00564,0.003231,0.032928,0.05212,-0.006171,0.011839,-0.031962,-0.003578,0.004343,0.001591,0.011474,0.002154,-0.003142,-0.002376,0.002246,0.001607,-0.016392,-0.018195,0.002874
Celtic,0.133173,0.123895,0.077687,0.042313,0.05262 5,0.002231,0.00282,0.000462,0.016157,0.01549,-0.011692,-0.010641,-0.00223,0.004404,0.004479,0.006895,0.006258,-0.000253,0.003771,0.014507,-0.007736,-0.002102,0.003204,-0.00494,-0.001676
Celtic,0.125205,0.144205,0.050911,0.029716,0.04862 4,0.00251,0.003525,0.005077,0.005318,0.010934,0.01 088,-0.004796,-0.000149,0.009496,-0.011129,-0.015778,-0.011083,0.007095,0.003771,-0.003627,-0.012977,-0.008656,-0.001725,-0.006266,-0.010298
Celtic-Gaulish,0.124067,0.151314,0.063356,0.026163,0.0437 ,0.005857,0.001175,0.002308,0.020861,0.02442,-0.012342,0.00015,-0.01665,-0.003165,0.014658,-0.009546,-0.018254,0.003801,0.005908,0.001626,0.009858,0.006 059,-0.004437,-0.005904,-0.005269
Celtic-Gaelic,0.125205,0.125926,0.062979,0.069445,0.02523 5,0.028168,0.004935,0.000462,0.001227,-0.007289,-0.002598,0.010341,-0.012636,-0.01156,0.023751,0.008884,-0.013299,0.010515,0.004274,0.007253,0.00262,0.0038 33,-0.001972,0.015424,-0.005029
Celtic-Pict,0.130897,0.140143,0.060716,0.052649,0.042162, 0.017291,0.00705,0.003692,0.00634,0.001822,-0.00682,0.004946,-0.019326,-0.016652,0.020765,0.018563,-0.009127,0.003421,0.004148,0.009379,0.008485,0.007 543,0.002711,0.006145,0.007784
Celtic-Briton,0.132035,0.138112,0.057699,0.053295,0.03877 6,0.017291,0.001645,0.003,0.007976,0.00328,-0.00682,0.005845,-0.015609,-0.017478,0.025108,0.011403,0.001434,-0.005194,-0.000754,0.006503,0.00836,-0.005812,-0.004437,0.013496,-0.005029
Proto-Balt,0.122929,0.126941,0.092395,0.098515,0.042469, 0.034582,-0.00188,0.010153,-0.000614,-0.04975,-0.000812,-0.018583,0.013082,0.032066,-0.0095,-0.000398,-0.006389,0.003041,-0.00817,-0.001251,-0.002496,0.005193,0.002342,-0.021328,0.00946
Proto-Balt,0.135449,0.129988,0.089755,0.089471,0.038469, 0.038208,0.016451,0.011999,-0.005727,-0.047017,-0.003573,-0.017085,0.017393,0.021744,-0.009772,-0.006762,-0.011213,0.002154,-0.001634,0.002626,-0.004367,-0.00272,-0.001356,-0.007591,0.008861
Proto-German,0.133173,0.125926,0.076933,0.061047,0.04123 8,0.021196,0.002585,0.006461,0.000205,-0.012028,-0.000974,0.004046,-0.000297,-0.006331,0.018051,0.013259,0.009648,0.001647,-0.000754,0.00075,0.002371,0.000371,0.005176,0.0128 93,0.001437
Proto-German,0.129758,0.131003,0.084475,0.078489,0.04154 6,0.020638,-0.004465,0.017768,-0.005931,-0.011663,-0.011854,0.007493,-0.006244,-0.007844,0.020765,-0.005038,-0.015255,-0.005321,0.00176,0.008004,0.008235,-0.004328,-0.003944,0.005302,-0.012214
Proto-German,0.127482,0.120848,0.072784,0.070414,0.04277 7,0.031794,0.00611,0.014307,0.009817,-0.022051,-0.001461,-0.001349,0.00892,0.012386,0.012893,-0.007558,-0.01708,0.002027,0.00176,0.001626,0.001497,0.00507 ,0.006902,-0.000241,0.00467
Saami,0.097888,-0.129988,0.121056,0.103683,-0.059088,-0.000837,-0.00235,0.003231,0.005727,-0.053577,0.035401,-0.01079,0.023786,-0.049544,-0.005972,0.009016,-0.003912,-0.001394,-0.004022,0.001751,0.007112,0.00643,0.006655,-0.018436,0.001557
Saami,0.092197,-0.136081,0.121433,0.114666,-0.061858,-0.001952,-0.00658,-0.005077,-0.001432,-0.040274,0.035888,-0.009142,0.021407,-0.04514,-0.002036,0.012596,-0.004303,0.004687,0,0.008254,0.005615,0.004699,0.0 08751,-0.022533,-0.000958
Finn,0.127482,0.089367,0.102954,0.102391,0.035083, 0.03263,0.00799,0.016153,-0.007158,-0.046835,0.011205,-0.019782,0.02884,0.000275,-0.005293,0.008221,0.021513,0.000633,-0.000628,0.006128,-0.000125,0.000247,-0.00456,-0.01687,0.001916
West_Scythian,0.106994,0.066009,0.032055,0.055233, 0.001846,0.015897,-0.000235,0.018922,-0.009817,-0.016037,0.003085,-0.002098,-0.007136,-0.003165,0.008143,0.014717,0.010431,0.011149,-0.010684,0.002376,0.000374,-0.009892,0.003328,0.004458,-0.005029
West_Scythian,0.114961,0.093429,0.036581,0.03876,0 .000615,0.005299,0.001645,0.006,-0.006954,-0.015855,0.001299,-3e-04,-0.004906,-0.004679,0.009229,0.007558,-0.00013,-0.00114,0.001131,0.001626,-0.002246,0.001607,-0.004683,-0.011206,0.00455
West_Scythian,0.10927,0.081242,0.028661,0.050065,-0.00677,0.014781,0.013631,0.011769,-0.011658,-0.008018,-0.021598,-0.01109,0.015907,-0.009771,0.003664,0.004773,-0.005476,0.002534,-0.006913,0.007754,-0.018717,-0.009892,-0.008997,-0.004217,0.007784
West_Scythian,0.10927,0.060932,0.027907,0.03553,-0.001539,0.01506,-0.000705,-0.011769,-0.006136,-0.011481,-0.010068,0.000749,-0.024083,-0.01445,0.01045,-0.018032,-0.004824,0.001267,-0.004902,0.000125,-0.007487,-0.00507,-0.000739,0.00012,-0.008502
Cimerian,0.106994,0.002031,0.023759,0.033592,-0.031698,0.00251,0.004465,0.006923,-0.028633,-0.030251,-0.009581,0.001798,0,-0.018029,0.021172,0.00769,0.009518,0.002914,0.0114 39,-0.014382,-0.012603,-0.005564,-0.003821,0.011568,0.006466
Sarmatian,0.10927,0.015233,0.041483,0.068153,-0.03139,0.019522,-0.003055,-0.010846,-0.029656,-0.031162,-0.006658,0.000599,-0.008771,-0.012937,0.014658,0.008486,0.000782,0.006968,-0.004399,0.000625,0.003619,0.001113,0.000739,-0.000602,-0.000599
Scythian,0.0774,-0.078196,0.057699,0.047158,-0.039084,0.007809,-0.004465,0.000231,-0.01718,-0.017677,-0.008282,-0.006444,-0.00773,-0.020919,0.012079,0.009149,-0.005085,-0.006334,0.006662,-0.003377,-0.01722,0.00915,-0.003944,0.009278,0.006706
Scythian,0.083091,-0.096475,0.061471,0.046189,-0.042777,0.005857,0.0047,0.001154,-0.010635,-0.020957,-0.018999,-0.008243,0.001338,-0.020781,0.017372,0.009016,-0.014342,0.004561,-0.003017,-0.003877,-0.020339,0.011871,-0.001109,-0.007712,-0.00479
Kushan,0.095611,0.016248,-0.012822,0.043282,-0.054472,0.007251,-0.001645,-0.000462,-0.030679,-0.030069,-0.003735,0.001798,0,-0.015138,0.004479,0.00769,0.001173,0.004561,0.0043 99,-0.009129,-0.013851,0.003833,-0.004067,-0.001566,-0.001437
Hun-Sarmatian:DA20,0.039838,-0.406212,0.092772,-0.025194,-0.087401,-0.046296,0.019976,0.016153,0.004704,0.009841,-0.012666,0.00015,-0.01115,0.000138,-0.001764,-0.006099,-0.001043,-0.000127,-0.001885,0.007754,-0.01959,0.006183,-0.019227,-0.002289,-0.002155
Finno-Ugric_Taiga_Hunter-Gatherer,0.094473,-0.01828,0.041106,0.047481,-0.048932,0.014502,-0.002115,-0.010615,-0.025361,-0.024602,-0.000974,0.002248,0.002081,-0.026561,0.015608,0.030496,0.005607,-0.001774,0.006411,0.007253,-0.018093,0.004822,0.009983,0.002048,-0.008981
Paleo-siberian_Taiga_Hunter-Gatherers,0.044391,-0.366606,0.102577,0.025194,-0.096633,-0.037092,-0.042537,-0.039921,0.001432,-0.004009,0.023546,-0.000599,-0.000743,-0.01445,-0.024973,-0.015646,-0.008605,0.01723,0.034818,0.022011,0.030945,-0.051934,0.012941,0.024461,0.023231
Paleo-siberian_Taiga_Hunter-Gatherers,0.043253,-0.324969,0.09956,0.024225,-0.085862,-0.033467,-0.037367,-0.042921,0.002863,-0.008018,0.016401,-0.005395,0.005203,-0.018441,-0.023208,-0.010475,-0.001304,0.011149,0.034567,0.014132,0.022835,-0.052058,0.008134,0.022292,0.021914
East_Paleo-siberian_Taiga_Hunter-Gatherers,0.029594,-0.437693,0.075801,-0.030685,-0.068936,-0.041834,0.005405,0.020768,0.011249,0.018588,-0.037674,-0.002098,-0.00996,0.005643,0.005293,0.00358,-0.00326,0.000633,-0.001006,0.02076,-0.021712,-0.001855,-0.023294,-0.009158,0.00012
East_Paleo-siberian_Taiga_Hunter-Gatherers,0.029594,-0.437693,0.086738,-0.030039,-0.063089,-0.051316,0.019271,0.021922,0.012885,0.016766,-0.038648,0.00045,-0.001635,0.00055,-0.003936,-0.000265,0.004433,-0.003167,-0.002011,0.01063,-0.029074,-0.001607,-0.02884,-0.008796,0.000718
East_Paleo-siberian_Taiga_Hunter-Gatherers,0.028456,-0.433631,0.085984,-0.029716,-0.070167,-0.040439,0.011751,0.019384,0.013499,0.012574,-0.036375,-0.003147,-0.001041,-0.010322,-0.00285,-0.00305,0.001565,-0.00266,0.000503,0.022761,-0.038807,0.001855,-0.020706,-0.003615,0.001916
East_Paleo-siberian_Taiga_Hunter-Gatherers,0.026179,-0.4316,0.078441,-0.030039,-0.072321,-0.048527,0.011281,0.017307,0.014317,0.016583,-0.041084,-0.004796,-0.00446,-0.003028,-0.001221,-0.009149,-0.001173,-0.004561,-0.001131,0.016383,-0.021213,0.015333,-0.018241,-0.010604,0.007424
Tungusic_Hunter-Gatherer,0.022765,-0.468159,0.093149,-0.044251,-0.088632,-0.05271,0.013866,0.025614,0.006749,0.020046,-0.039948,0.001499,-0.006244,0.021882,0.003122,-0.002917,0.001434,-0.003674,0.01081,0.034016,-0.029822,-0.029306,-0.050408,-0.005784,-0.003832
East_Turco-Mongolic_transhumant_pastoralits,0.062603,-0.213261,0.059585,0.025194,-0.049855,-0.004183,0.00235,0.017076,-0.000614,-0.007836,-0.014615,-0.001649,0.003568,-0.027662,0.009093,0.007292,-0.000782,-0.001394,-0.001885,0.004252,-0.015223,0.012984,-0.01023,0.000361,0.001317
East_Turco-Mongolic_transhumant_pastoralits,0.067156,-0.195997,0.069013,0.02907,-0.054779,-0.015339,-0.001645,-0.001385,-0.00859,-0.011663,-0.016239,-0.003147,0.001784,-0.016239,0.006922,0.01074,0.00013,-0.004307,-0.005154,0.007629,-0.026453,0.004204,0.000986,0.00482,0.005628
Central_Turco-Mongolic_transhumant_pastoralits,0.056912,-0.188888,0.033187,0.033915,-0.029236,0.007809,-0.00564,-0.013615,-0.012067,-0.015308,-0.022247,-0.006744,0.01219,-0.021469,0.013572,0.008353,0.000782,0.008108,-0.008925,0.00075,-0.011979,0.003215,-0.008134,0,0.002634
Central_Turco-Mongolic_transhumant_pastoralits,0.0774,-0.175687,0.059585,0.013889,-0.050471,0.016455,-0.011045,-0.008769,-0.016362,-0.034989,-0.02241,0.005545,0.008176,-0.009771,0.007736,0.005569,-0.008605,-0.009248,0.004651,0.007379,-0.0141,0.000371,0.012078,-0.006266,-0.004431
Zhou,0.022765,-0.441755,0.009428,-0.061693,0.059396,0.028168,0.005405,-0.004846,-0.016362,0.001458,-0.082818,-0.008692,0.014271,-0.013074,-0.006107,0.000133,0.008605,0.003674,-0.006662,-0.013882,0.02009,0.007419,0.004807,-0.007953,0.001197
Gojoseon-Korean:91KLH11,0.027318,-0.442771,0.024513,-0.065892,0.016311,-0.005578,0.00141,0.016384,-0.00225,0.005285,-0.064468,-0.001199,0.00996,-0.001101,-0.005157,0.000928,0,-0.006841,-0.004651,0.003252,0.005366,0.002473,-0.004807,-0.00494,-0.010658
Gojoseon-Korean:91KLH18,0.021626,-0.452926,0.029415,-0.05814,0.018773,0,-0.001175,0.004615,-0.004295,0.009659,-0.067391,-3e-04,0.011298,-0.000963,-0.013165,-0.002784,0.005476,0.003801,0.002891,-0.009254,0.012478,-0.002473,0.006655,-0.000723,0.003233
Burmese,0.002276,-0.380824,-0.079195,-0.03553,0.148643,0.06777,-0.00047,-0.013615,0.00409,-0.020593,0.082006,0.007643,-0.022002,0.005643,0.004614,-0.004375,0.000782,-0.001774,-0.006411,0.019509,-0.011854,0.014096,-0.008627,-0.005663,0.036643
Tibetan,0.012521,-0.410274,-0.011691,-0.031331,0.017542,0.011435,0.00658,0.011999,0.0100 22,0.021139,-0.081194,-0.006444,0.010109,-0.004679,-0.011401,0,0.011213,-0.001267,-0.009302,0.009379,0.004991,0.029306,0.004314,0.003 615,0.031734
Dong_Son,0.034147,-0.391994,-0.034695,-0.05491,0.126485,0.039602,0.00047,-0.013615,-0.023725,-0.005103,0.018837,0.006444,0.008176,-0.00812,-0.007329,0.014585,-0.011083,0.008108,-0.012821,-0.006378,0.002246,0.017311,-0.002835,-0.005663,-0.006945
Dong_Son,0.043253,-0.370668,-0.046386,-0.059755,0.139411,0.071675,-0.001175,-0.011769,-0.023316,-0.002734,0.033939,-0.012139,0.006392,-0.016239,0.006107,0.005834,-0.00691,0.010262,0.015084,-0.018759,0.0141,0.002473,0.014666,0.014701,0.01125 6
Austro-Asiatic_Rice_farmers,0.011382,-0.388948,-0.050534,-0.042959,0.12033,0.069165,-0.006345,-0.002077,0.004704,-0.024966,0.047255,0.003147,-0.014271,-0.007432,0.002986,-0.007425,0.013169,-0.004687,-0.002514,0.014257,0.004866,0.018672,-0.013434,-0.001325,0.04287
Austronesian_Farmers,0,-0.395041,-0.084098,-0.034561,0.154183,0.068049,-0.007285,-0.010615,-0.005522,-0.018224,0.090938,0.017834,-0.015163,0.006331,0.006922,-0.001061,-0.001695,-0.006841,-0.003394,0.019259,-0.01697,0.012984,-0.009737,0.00723,0.048379
Thais,0.012521,-0.395041,-0.046386,-0.023256,0.122792,0.048248,-0.00282,0.002077,-0.015953,-0.006014,0.020461,-0.003897,-0.004311,0.007432,0,-0.000663,-0.00013,-0.006334,-0.00352,0.02151,-0.007487,0.013973,-0.017131,0.005181,0.02862
Thais,0.001138,-0.397072,-0.031301,-0.042636,0.104019,0.048248,0.002115,0.003461,-0.0045,-0.00656,0.013316,0.002548,-0.004608,0.002202,0.003664,0.001989,0.002347,-0.005448,-0.00264,0.013632,-0.001622,0.024236,-0.001849,0.008917,0.045385
Thais,0.007968,-0.401134,-0.037712,-0.046189,0.085862,0.046017,0.00329,-0.011999,-0.001636,-0.011845,0.024196,0.007643,-0.005946,-0.001101,0.005157,0.004641,-0.002608,-0.001647,-0.003268,0.011506,-0.010482,0.026833,0.01023,0.010122,0.037721
Jomon,0.011382,-0.339187,-0.051666,0.01615,0.040623,0.008925,-0.00564,-0.002538,0.019021,0.01877,-0.051964,-0.002098,0.007433,-0.011285,-0.023344,-0.013657,0.005737,0.010769,0.005531,-0.012756,0.066882,-0.041671,0.01442,0.01217,-0.099752
Arctic_Marine_Mamels_hunters,0.01935,-0.448864,0.067127,-0.049742,-0.041238,-0.046017,0.00846,0.003,0.003681,0.024602,-0.054563,-0.001798,-0.001933,0.012799,-0.010858,-0.005569,0.002477,0.000127,0.017849,0.012631,0.014 599,-0.029553,-0.019843,-0.000843,-0.010538
Arctic_Marine_Mamels_hunters,0.025041,-0.446833,0.069013,-0.050065,-0.037545,-0.036256,0.002115,0.008307,0.007772,0.024237,-0.04417,-0.002997,-0.002081,0.003578,-0.009772,-0.01074,0.004563,0.007095,0.015838,0.005503,0.0086 1,-0.020155,-0.01442,-0.001205,-0.017364
Arctic_Marine_Mamels_hunters,0.006829,-0.439724,0.07467,-0.051357,-0.03693,-0.036256,-0.007755,0.010384,0.012271,0.014943,-0.040922,-0.008992,-0.013082,0.008808,-0.005429,-0.01896,0.005998,0.01875,0.016341,0.012131,0.00087 3,-0.035365,-0.01405,-0.008314,-0.017962
Arctic_Marine_Mamels_hunters,0.013659,-0.44074,0.078064,-0.053295,-0.033852,-0.039602,0.01081,0.01223,0.00225,0.01385,-0.054725,-0.005545,0.004757,0.009496,-0.012351,-0.018297,-0.016168,0.009628,0.019735,0.00988,0.01123,-0.025843,-0.021568,0.000602,-0.012454
Greenlander_East,0.061464,-0.312783,0.118416,0.04845,-0.106481,-0.031236,-0.1168,-0.134994,0.003681,-0.020228,0.016888,-0.006294,0.015461,-0.021332,-0.039223,-0.012198,-0.000261,0.014316,0.032304,0.016633,0.028075,-0.048101,0.007272,0.031932,0.042511
Greenlander_West,0.067156,-0.267084,0.106725,0.056525,-0.09294,-0.020917,-0.094239,-0.110534,0.003272,-0.015855,0.019811,-0.005395,0.006392,-0.007156,-0.023208,-0.013259,-0.018645,0.012542,0.027528,0.014507,0.020339,-0.044886,0.000739,0.028076,0.037362
Subartic_Forest_Hunter-Gatherer,0.088782,-0.137096,0.098051,0.062985,-0.049548,-0.003068,-0.063923,-0.081458,-0.000818,-0.030433,0.00406,-0.009442,0.017096,-0.000963,-0.026873,-0.002784,0.005085,0.001647,0.00817,0.007629,-0.001622,-0.023494,0.001232,0.006386,0.020717
North_West-Pacific_Amerindian_Hunters-Fisher1:HGDP01037,0.054635,-0.303643,0.103331,0.085918,-0.107712,-0.014781,-0.263447,-0.316833,-0.012271,-0.014761,0.001137,0.004046,-0.000446,0.021607,-0.007465,0.012066,0.007432,0.009628,0.003394,-0.002876,-0.006114,0.007048,-0.008874,0.005543,0.002994
North_East_Amerindian_Woodland-Hunter-Gatherer:S_North_East_Amerindian-1,0.079676,-0.170609,0.089755,0.055556,-0.061858,-0.003626,-0.131841,-0.161762,-0.006954,-0.015672,0.002761,-0.00045,0.00669,-0.00055,-0.010722,0.004906,0.010561,0.003167,0.003268,0.004 377,-0.007612,-0.005812,0.006409,0.008194,-0.005628
North_East_Amerindian_Woodland-Hunter-Gatherer:S_North_East_Amerindian-2,0.071709,-0.207168,0.103708,0.069445,-0.078784,-0.015897,-0.169208,-0.192915,-0.001023,-0.014214,-0.00065,-0.003447,0.000892,0.004817,-0.004614,0.002254,0.004824,0.001394,0.003897,0.007 754,-0.002995,-0.004699,0.007395,0.010724,0.005029
Caribean_Hunter-Gatherer,0.050082,-0.316845,0.114645,0.102068,-0.114791,-0.014502,-0.307629,-0.359523,-0.009613,-0.019499,-0.005034,-0.002698,-0.002081,0.015276,-0.002307,0.00305,0.008214,0.003547,-0.001006,0.002501,0.002496,0.004946,-0.007148,-0.001446,-0.010538
Andean-Pacific_Amerindian,0.061464,-0.314814,0.115022,0.09367,-0.108328,-0.017291,-0.285068,-0.33714,-0.014317,-0.014397,0.000812,-0.001049,0.000892,0.017616,-0.007465,0.006629,0.007823,0,-0.002137,-0.003126,-0.004492,0.00371,-0.002218,0.003133,-0.00455
Mesoamerica_Pacific_Amerindian,0.053497,-0.312783,0.109365,0.094639,-0.11356,-0.014223,-0.286008,-0.342678,-0.012476,-0.015308,-0.005846,0.000749,-0.002379,0.021744,-0.005157,0.00358,0.000522,0.002914,0.001383,-0.002126,0.00025,0.009892,-0.000616,-0.003253,0
Mesoamerica_Pacific_Amerindian,0.050082,-0.303643,0.112759,0.098192,-0.103096,-0.01506,-0.273787,-0.332294,-0.008181,-0.017677,-0.008444,-0.009292,-0.000297,0.024359,-0.00095,-0.008486,-0.00352,-0.000887,0.015461,-0.003126,-0.004742,0.005193,0.005546,-0.000361,-0.000479
Amazonian_Manioc-Farmer:HGDP00843,0.053497,-0.311768,0.11653,0.11079,-0.119407,-0.026216,-0.33489,-0.398983,-0.019839,-0.022962,0.006496,-0.007943,0.005798,0.039635,-0.016151,0.000133,0.009127,-0.00266,-0.006788,0.001,-0.004118,0.012365,-0.010599,-0.00976,-0.007185
Polynesian,-0.030732,-0.280286,-0.183658,0.179912,0.159414,-0.2867,-0.00564,0.004846,-0.016975,-0.011845,0.007145,0.002398,-0.001635,-0.006468,-0.001357,0.001591,0.00352,0.000507,-0.001634,-0.007253,-0.004492,-0.0115,-0.002095,-0.008073,-0.017603
Polynesian,-0.0387,-0.243727,-0.214582,0.239021,0.168955,-0.393794,0.001645,0.010615,-0.022498,-0.012028,-0.002761,0.007343,0.009366,-0.007432,-0.0095,-0.001061,-0.000391,0.002534,0.00264,0.009254,-0.000749,0.000866,-0.002711,-0.014701,-0.013292
Proto-Polynesian:I1368_all,0.007968,-0.415352,-0.050157,-0.055233,0.139718,0.062472,-0.01081,-0.019845,-0.017385,-0.022051,0.063007,0.004196,-0.016055,0.017753,0.024294,0.014585,-0.009909,0.00152,0.011439,-0.01088,0.006738,-0.020279,0.003081,-0.013014,-0.06215
Proto-Polynesian:I1369_all,0.004553,-0.428553,-0.045254,-0.066861,0.153259,0.05522,-0.002115,-0.011769,-0.02577,-0.028247,0.051477,0.001499,0.000297,-0.000688,0.016422,0.016839,-0.005607,0.00114,0.011439,-0.007253,0.004367,-0.035983,-0.006162,-0.021569,-0.064186

Mixing modern and ancient samples in my opinion is not optimal.

StillWater
01-26-2022, 12:56 AM
Which of these modern populations do you think best proxy the Levantine part of Ashkenazi Jews? If there was admixture in Judea I would say it is Lebanese_Christian or Palestinian_Beit_Sahour.

https://i.imgur.com/ziVrvd8.png

Those 2 and it's possible it even gets to Cypriot.

Gentica277282
01-26-2022, 12:59 AM
Mixing modern and ancient samples in my opinion is not optimal.

It’s not my model, but I can’t see any mixing of modern and ancient samples first hand. Can you tell me which samples are modern?

Levantine_Viking
01-26-2022, 01:05 AM
Slim bens Iron Age 2.0

West_African_Cereal-Farmer:HGDP00915,-0.599848,0.064994,0.017348,0.008721,0.002462,0.008 646,-0.042302,0.034152,-0.03027,0.02606,0.003897,0.004646,0.024975,-0.002477,0.014658,-0.016839,0.007302,0.004561,-0.00264,-0.003126,-0.002496,-0.005317,0.000863,-0.002651,-0.002874
Nilo-Saharian_Pastoralist,-0.593342,0.04687,0.000936,-0.00969,-0.007386,-0.003666,-0.01658,0.014769,0.075674,-0.113898,-0.022478,0.038924,-0.049207,-0.000046,0.005065,-0.020419,0.028645,-0.020507,0.042877,-0.027138,0.002496,0.007172,-0.017238,-0.010241,0.004071
Bantu_Cereal_Farmer,-0.613507,0.061947,0.023004,0.010659,0.008001,0.013 108,0.009165,-0.000231,-0.019839,0.009476,0.011692,-0.000599,-0.008771,0.012661,-0.008279,0.023071,-0.010561,0.051436,-0.03243,-0.001,0,0.002473,0.00949,-0.011447,-0.003233
Bantu_Cereal_Farmer,-0.633995,0.054839,0.021873,0.021641,-0.000615,0.008925,0.001645,0.004615,-0.020043,0.007107,0.002923,-0.002248,-0.017839,-0.003165,-0.016015,0.020551,-0.001173,0.033192,-0.009553,0.006878,-0.002246,0.000124,-0.000739,0.002048,0.005987
Bantu_Cereal_Farmer,-0.623751,0.072103,0.013953,0.015827,0.004616,0.005 02,0.007755,-0.003923,-0.024543,0.012392,0.004872,-0.005245,-0.007433,-0.002202,-0.016286,0.01074,-0.005607,0.045355,-0.01898,0.000375,-0.004118,-0.003586,0.002588,-0.004458,0.000479
Bantu_Cereal_Farmer,-0.631718,0.064994,0.026398,0.014212,0.003693,0.011 713,0.00423,0.003923,-0.029451,0.010387,0.003248,-0.004196,-0.007284,0.000138,-0.010043,0.012861,-0.012908,0.037373,-0.01898,0.003627,-0.003494,0.000124,0.002465,-0.00494,0.000838
East_Bantu_Cereal_Farmer:I2298,-0.616921,0.066009,0.021119,0.011305,0.004001,0.013 108,-0.00987,0.016153,-0.020248,0.002187,0.000812,0.007943,-0.014717,0.003165,-0.019272,0.005304,-0.014212,0.00266,-0.006034,0.006503,0.004118,0.003957,0.001849,0.005 663,0.003233
South_West_African_Hunter-Gatherer,-0.641962,0.057885,0.023381,0.031008,0.001539,0.008 925,0.165212,-0.127841,-0.023929,0.039545,0.012179,-0.133831,-0.045787,-0.004129,0.003122,-0.006364,-0.001304,-0.029265,0.005531,-0.003377,0.006863,0.000742,-0.001109,0.000482,0.000359
Ethiopian_Highland_Farmer,-0.423422,0.076165,-0.011691,-0.042313,0.001231,-0.027889,-0.00282,0.004384,0.107784,-0.089113,-0.017538,0.006744,-0.022299,0.001651,0.015744,-0.024529,0.011604,0.003674,0.012444,-0.007754,-0.000998,0.009521,-0.003697,0.000843,-0.005987
Ethiopian_Highland_Farmer,-0.400657,0.084289,-0.018479,-0.04522,0.003385,-0.025937,-0.016686,0.007384,0.106352,-0.084375,-0.016076,0.000749,-0.015609,0.003578,0.026601,-0.02254,0.018384,-0.004814,0.016718,-0.015632,0.004243,0.008779,-0.006779,-0.004097,0.003712
East_African_Pastoralist,-0.219679,0.1046,-0.033941,-0.076874,0.004001,-0.044065,-0.00329,-0.005077,0.125373,-0.069979,0,-0.015137,0.013379,0.010184,0.028094,-0.019491,0.019166,0.006968,-0.009679,0.003502,0.001747,0.000989,0.009244,0.000 482,0.003353
East_African_Pastoralist,-0.311875,0.089367,-0.026021,-0.072675,0.003385,-0.030399,-0.005405,-0.012692,0.119646,-0.092029,-0.002761,-0.009442,-0.000595,0.001376,0.019137,-0.023999,0.02386,0.006334,0.006411,-0.006628,0.003244,0.004822,-0.006655,-0.001325,0.002395
Khoisan_Hunter-Gatherers,-0.641962,0.055854,0.026021,0.034884,0.004616,-0.001116,0.267677,-0.210222,0.007567,0.01549,0.006983,-0.06729,-0.019475,0.006881,0.022394,-0.020021,0.038072,0.292144,-0.091885,0.006628,-0.033441,-0.001484,0.003204,0.001566,0.003233
Khoisan_Hunter-Gatherers,-0.644239,0.058901,0.02489,0.034884,-0.001231,-0.004183,0.262977,-0.202838,0.015135,0.014943,0.010393,-0.06759,-0.020961,0.004266,0.025244,-0.018032,0.031814,0.299238,-0.098673,0.005378,-0.030571,-0.002844,-0.00037,-0.003133,-0.002275
Khoisan_Hunter-Gatherers,-0.638548,0.052808,0.026776,0.034884,0.000308,-0.003904,0.273552,-0.208607,0.00859,0.015672,0.008769,-0.063094,-0.02438,0.00812,0.023615,-0.022408,0.032726,0.292397,-0.096662,0.006128,-0.037559,-0.007419,0.006655,-0.00723,-0.002155
Khoisan_Hunter-Gatherers,-0.639686,0.058901,0.025644,0.041344,-0.00277,-0.002789,0.267912,-0.20653,0.011658,0.016766,0.002761,-0.06744,-0.01888,0.005092,0.026058,-0.013392,0.031944,0.289737,-0.092137,0.003752,-0.035188,-0.000495,0.002835,-0.000843,-0.00934
Berber_Numidian,-0.086506,0.136081,-0.012068,-0.097869,0.035083,-0.041834,-0.039717,0.003461,0.109011,0.035718,0.008282,-0.010341,0.027205,-0.018441,0.024294,-0.030761,-0.014473,-0.032939,-0.058324,0.012506,-0.013351,-0.045628,0.024526,-0.008676,0.00467
Berber_Getuli,-0.06122,0.130143,-0.012263,-0.081086,0.0257,-0.047133,-0.026192,0.007384,0.071013,0.03283,0.022179,-0.00899,0.016987,-0.028029,0.020087,-0.016309,0.010652,-0.026596,-0.063561,0.023001,-0.021729,-0.058548,0.053064,-0.01385,0.005987
Benue_Cereal_Farmer,-0.627165,0.066009,0.021496,0.015181,0.002462,0.012 55,-0.050292,0.05169,-0.046836,0.031891,0.005359,-0.003447,0.027651,0.00234,0.015472,-0.011005,0.006258,-0.002027,0.005028,0.001751,-0.001622,-0.000124,-0.000986,0.001205,0.002155
Pre-Ptolemaic_Egyptian,0.046667,0.152329,-0.037712,-0.121126,0,-0.054384,-0.010575,-0.006231,0.048472,0.007289,0.000162,-0.010191,0.026164,0.000138,0,-0.008486,-0.007953,-0.005194,-0.00176,0.006878,0.005989,0.001237,0.005053,0.0131 34,0.006227
Pre-Ptolemaic_Egyptian,0.053497,0.141159,-0.04714,-0.115635,-0.004001,-0.04518,-0.020681,-0.003231,0.046427,0.005103,0.017863,-0.012739,0.0333,-0.011836,-0.001629,0.004375,-0.00691,0.001267,-0.005279,0.017133,0.005241,0.002102,0.002218,-0.005302,-0.007424
Nabatean:I10104,0.093335,0.146236,-0.07203,-0.102714,-0.022466,-0.032072,-0.015981,-0.021922,0.026384,0.01221,0.007632,-0.020981,0.026462,0.002752,-0.015065,-0.0118,-0.031553,0.015076,0.001508,0.016258,0.010606,-0.009027,-0.016762,-0.001446,-0.007424
Aramean:I6565,0.086506,0.149283,-0.079195,-0.107237,-0.01908,-0.049921,0.00564,0.003,0.015953,-0.002187,0.015752,-0.017385,0.021407,-0.003578,-0.007736,-0.008088,-0.011735,0.016723,0.001885,0.001751,0.00836,0.0101 4,-0.012695,-0.008194,-0.002036
Arabian_Bedouins,0.071709,0.139128,-0.062225,-0.111113,-0.008001,-0.043507,-0.011751,-0.015692,0.041723,0.009476,0.013316,-0.019782,0.049653,-0.00523,0.000814,0.028639,-0.000522,-0.00038,-0.001131,0.020135,0.006364,0.012489,-0.00419,0.003133,-0.002036
Philistin,0.080814,0.145221,-0.066373,-0.101422,-0.021542,-0.029562,-0.003055,-0.012923,0.003272,0.002005,0.012179,-0.008393,0.019475,0.003303,0.001086,0.010872,-0.00339,0.001394,0.007668,-0.003627,0.006988,0.001731,0,0.000241,0.003473
Phoenician,0.087644,0.151314,-0.055437,-0.089794,-0.018773,-0.03765,-0.00282,-0.004384,0.00859,0.012574,0.009906,-0.005395,0.016799,-0.005505,-0.007465,0.006364,0.000522,0.002787,-0.00176,-0.00025,0.004617,0.010634,-0.00912,0,-0.003113
Judean,0.087644,0.160454,-0.054682,-0.102391,-0.006155,-0.041555,-0.004935,-0.002769,0.026588,0.013668,0.019487,-0.008243,0.016204,0.030139,-0.007329,-0.007823,-0.026077,0.003421,0.006662,0.005753,-0.00861,0.013973,-0.006039,0.003374,-0.002515
Ancient_Neo-Assyrian,0.105855,0.151314,-0.043746,-0.086887,-0.009848,-0.032909,-0.003525,-0.014076,-0.010226,0.030069,0.017376,0.004496,-0.019921,0.001789,-0.012215,-0.003713,0.008605,-0.00076,0.012444,-0.007504,0.003993,0.007914,-0.006655,0.006627,-0.001317
Mittani,0.103579,0.15436,-0.035449,-0.076228,-0.001539,-0.01506,0.021151,0.002538,-0.000818,0.010752,-0.004384,0.017684,-0.003271,0.020231,-0.008007,-0.006629,-0.014864,0.004561,0.010936,-0.008254,-0.000624,-0.002844,0.005916,-0.001687,-0.007185
Hittite,0.100164,0.150298,-0.02753,-0.073967,0.004001,-0.024821,-0.006345,-0.006923,-0.001636,0.031709,0.007795,0.006294,-0.011744,-0.002202,-0.013165,0.002652,0.011995,0.001647,0.010307,-0.019384,-0.009982,0.010881,-0.004067,0.005422,-0.001557
Phrygian-Hellenestic,0.112685,0.15436,0.029038,-0.031331,0.031083,-0.011435,-0.015981,-0.020768,-0.002863,0.036629,0.012017,-0.001798,-0.015312,-0.000688,-0.032166,-0.010077,0.021774,-0.004307,0.009804,-0.02001,-0.018842,-0.005193,0.000246,-0.008676,-0.005628
Mede-Achemenid,0.09675,0.121864,-0.06939,-0.04199,-0.0437,-0.003904,0.002115,-0.004615,-0.033746,-0.014761,0.005684,0.001049,0.004757,-0.007707,0.003664,0.026916,0.009518,0.002534,0.006 034,-0.001376,-0.000873,-0.000618,0.000493,-0.003133,-0.001557
Parthian-Achemenid,0.095611,0.111708,-0.069767,-0.036176,-0.047393,0.003626,-0.00235,-0.001846,-0.043155,-0.019499,0.003897,-0.002997,0.008771,0.002615,0.00095,0.009679,-0.010561,0.012922,0.006788,-0.003627,-0.003868,-0.013107,-0.004067,-0.004699,0.007664
Gedrosian-Indus:I11474,0.066017,0.05687,-0.129352,0.030362,-0.10802,0.033467,0.009635,-0.001846,-0.053585,-0.027882,-0.008607,0.006145,-0.007879,-0.015138,0.021037,0.032882,-0.004433,-0.00228,0.007668,-0.022761,0.009608,-0.015951,0.001849,-0.019039,0.00491
Gedrosian-Indus:I11476,0.087644,0.089367,-0.106725,-0.002584,-0.098172,0.014502,0.012221,-0.010615,-0.069538,-0.042461,-0.008282,-0.003297,-0.005649,-0.011973,0.014929,0.037655,0.007953,0.001394,0.006 285,-0.013256,0.005241,-0.019413,-0.002218,-0.013616,0.010777
North_Indo-Aryan,0.079676,0.023357,-0.090132,0.064277,-0.061242,0.039602,0.005405,-0.010615,-0.02352,-0.010752,0.007145,0.008093,0.009663,-0.018854,0.008143,0.024396,0.012908,-0.000507,-0.004022,-0.001876,0.007612,-0.014715,0.011462,-0.009158,0.009819
South_Indo-Aryan,0.05805,-0.037575,-0.140666,0.083334,-0.072937,0.051874,0.00893,0.004384,0.002659,0.0122 1,-0.000325,0.01079,-0.015461,-0.002064,0.006243,0.015248,0.012126,-0.001647,-0.002514,-0.006503,-0.007237,0.007914,-0.013188,-0.018798,-0.009819
South-Indian-Hunter_Gatherer,-0.018211,-0.29793,-0.24996,0.25357,-0.057892,0.10839,-0.018488,0.019672,0.18097,0.13058,-0.034219,0.017465,-0.010408,0.035531,-0.01651,-0.030593,0.034611,-0.004048,0.005598,0.035085,-0.00062,0.026037,-0.008467,0.028244,-0.030344
Dravidian:I6946,0.015935,-0.126941,-0.172721,0.121772,-0.061858,0.066655,-0.007755,0.008769,0.062993,0.035718,0.012991,-0.003447,0.004162,0.017891,-0.009093,-0.019093,0.004303,0,-0.012318,0.02126,-0.004742,0.008161,0.002218,0.00976,-0.000479
Dravidian:I6942,0.017073,-0.116786,-0.18592,0.133723,-0.070475,0.071954,-0.00282,0.020999,0.069743,0.045377,-0.003085,0.004346,-0.000892,0.004542,-0.007736,-0.006629,0.002347,-0.004941,0.003268,0.012006,0.001248,0.006059,-0.002588,0.00494,-0.010777
Armeni,0.101303,0.118817,-0.018479,0.002261,-0.038161,0.00753,0.0047,-0.001615,-0.048881,-0.017312,0.001461,0.003747,-0.007582,-0.001651,0.008279,0.002652,0.001304,-0.003167,0.012318,0.012756,0.006863,-0.004081,0.013927,-0.010965,-0.002155
Colchian_Caucasian,0.106994,0.127957,-0.069767,-0.034884,-0.053241,-0.004741,0.012926,-0.007615,-0.07281,-0.036812,-0.002761,0.01094,-0.02438,0.002615,0.002579,-0.022142,0.013299,-0.004054,-0.016592,0.018759,0.017968,0.004822,0.000616,-0.014942,-0.013412
Colchian_Caucasian,0.103579,0.139128,-0.065996,-0.0323,-0.05201,-0.002231,0.016216,-0.006,-0.071583,-0.03098,0.003573,0.017534,-0.030475,-0.002615,0.005565,-0.018165,0.01369,-0.00076,-0.008799,0.015132,0.021213,-0.005193,-0.013804,-0.018195,-0.002275
Thracian,0.135449,0.138112,0.015462,-0.012274,0.020927,-0.008088,0.00235,-0.007384,-0.006545,0.034625,0.000487,0.008542,-0.008325,-0.008533,-0.014522,0.005171,0.025946,-0.000127,0.011439,0.005878,-0.019091,0.007666,0.004067,0.011929,-0.000239
Ancient-Macedonian,0.126344,0.157407,0.007165,-0.051034,0.029852,-0.02259,0.00423,-0.001385,0.007772,0.032074,-0.001461,0.005695,-0.013974,-0.003028,-0.015065,-0.001458,0.01369,0.006968,0.006285,-0.014757,-0.006239,0.004699,-0.007888,0.003494,-0.008861
Greco-Latin,0.118376,0.156392,-0.001131,-0.05168,0.020004,-0.01506,-0.004465,-0.004615,0.002863,0.030069,0.002598,0.007793,-0.012636,-0.002064,-0.012486,0.007027,0.019818,-0.002787,0.000251,-0.001126,-0.000624,0.004699,-0.001602,0.002651,-0.000359
Greek_Mycenaean,0.119514,0.160454,-0.006788,-0.068476,0.014464,-0.03514,-0.003055,-0.006923,-0.002863,0.050115,0.004384,0.015137,-0.009366,0.00289,-0.019815,-0.005304,0.024643,0.007601,0.020992,-0.000375,-0.007487,-0.012365,-0.010969,-0.000602,-0.001796
Greek_Mycenaean,0.110408,0.160454,-0.015462,-0.071383,0.029544,-0.038487,-0.003525,0.004154,0.013499,0.056129,0.018025,0.017 235,-0.00223,-0.00234,-0.023208,-0.005038,0.031553,0.003421,0.005908,-0.004002,-0.006613,0.003215,-0.016145,-0.007109,-0.003113
Greek_Mycenaean,0.091058,0.150298,-0.004148,-0.050388,0.022773,-0.013387,0.007285,-0.006692,0.003068,0.041003,-0.003573,0.019333,-0.020218,0.005505,-0.006515,-0.026518,0.00678,-0.003167,0.012193,-0.008629,-0.002995,-0.006306,-0.000616,0.005904,0.006945
Greek_Mycenaean,0.110408,0.15436,-0.006034,-0.068476,0.020004,-0.021475,-0.00282,0.000923,0.007976,0.042097,0.003248,0.0160 36,-0.019326,-0.008533,-0.016015,-0.002387,0.021122,0.006588,0.010182,-0.002876,-0.006364,0.016199,0.001356,0.006386,-0.00491
Illyrian,0.132035,0.151314,0.033941,-0.01615,0.024928,-0.005857,-0.006345,0.007154,0.003681,0.028976,0.001786,0.011 69,-0.02111,-0.001376,-0.005972,-0.008486,-0.006519,0.004941,0.005531,-0.014257,-0.001872,0.00507,0.001479,0.00253,0.003353
Etruscan,0.126344,0.149283,0.034318,-0.007752,0.036622,-0.005299,0.003995,-0.004615,0.014726,0.028793,-0.002111,0.015286,-0.01115,-0.002064,-0.00285,0.003182,0.006258,0.007221,0.012318,-0.002626,-0.003369,0.008037,0.000863,-0.000482,-0.001796
Roman-Latini,0.126344,0.152329,0.034318,-0.014535,0.054164,-0.01506,-0.001175,0.005307,0.019634,0.041914,0.005196,0.010 79,-0.011001,-0.005643,0.004479,-0.016441,-0.010822,-0.001394,0.006662,-0.01113,0.007736,0.007172,-0.007641,-0.00241,0.008981
Roman-Latini,0.133173,0.156392,0.0445,-0.00969,0.044008,-0.004462,0.00846,0.003,0.024543,0.044101,-0.002598,0.012289,-0.022448,-0.009634,-0.005429,-0.005834,0.00352,0.003167,0.006034,-0.007379,-0.008859,0.005317,-0.000863,-0.006989,-0.001796
Picentini,0.125205,0.138112,0.030547,-0.010982,0.023081,-0.011713,0.002115,-0.001846,0.006954,0.021139,0.008119,0.005845,-0.011596,-0.000826,-0.007465,-0.01432,-0.011604,0.005194,0.002765,-0.00988,-0.009733,0.001607,-0.002465,0.003976,-0.005508
Ligurian,0.12862,0.145221,0.04714,0.005491,0.04616 2,0.00251,-0.00282,0.002769,0.021475,0.039727,-0.002923,0.012289,-0.021407,-0.016239,0.012622,0.000398,-0.003129,0.003421,0.00176,-0.001251,0.004492,0.003586,-0.00456,-0.003976,0.000239
Celtiberian:I3758,0.125205,0.146236,0.06675,0.0138 89,0.053241,0.003347,-0.004465,0.002308,0.030474,0.034989,0.001624,0.008 393,-0.017691,-0.00812,0.013843,-0.007292,-0.02047,0.00114,-0.00352,-0.002751,0.003494,0.000618,-0.008134,-0.016508,-0.002994
Celtiberian:I3759,0.125205,0.140143,0.063356,0.009 044,0.062781,0.003347,-0.00235,0.006692,0.02168,0.034989,-0.006008,0.009292,-0.016204,-0.008945,0.0076,0.007425,0.003912,0.000633,0.00326 8,0.001251,0.012977,0.004081,-0.006039,-0.007109,-0.009221
Iberian,0.118376,0.152329,0.051288,0.004522,0.0649 35,-0.003347,-0.014101,0.005538,0.030679,0.049022,-0.002273,0.014237,-0.017245,-0.017203,0.005293,0.001989,0.012386,-0.005068,-0.001006,-0.004377,0.006863,0.000124,0.001972,-0.012893,-0.000359
Iberian,0.121791,0.15436,0.05242,-0.002261,0.059703,-0.008646,-0.00564,0.003231,0.032928,0.05212,-0.006171,0.011839,-0.031962,-0.003578,0.004343,0.001591,0.011474,0.002154,-0.003142,-0.002376,0.002246,0.001607,-0.016392,-0.018195,0.002874
Celtic,0.133173,0.123895,0.077687,0.042313,0.05262 5,0.002231,0.00282,0.000462,0.016157,0.01549,-0.011692,-0.010641,-0.00223,0.004404,0.004479,0.006895,0.006258,-0.000253,0.003771,0.014507,-0.007736,-0.002102,0.003204,-0.00494,-0.001676
Celtic,0.125205,0.144205,0.050911,0.029716,0.04862 4,0.00251,0.003525,0.005077,0.005318,0.010934,0.01 088,-0.004796,-0.000149,0.009496,-0.011129,-0.015778,-0.011083,0.007095,0.003771,-0.003627,-0.012977,-0.008656,-0.001725,-0.006266,-0.010298
Celtic-Gaulish,0.124067,0.151314,0.063356,0.026163,0.0437 ,0.005857,0.001175,0.002308,0.020861,0.02442,-0.012342,0.00015,-0.01665,-0.003165,0.014658,-0.009546,-0.018254,0.003801,0.005908,0.001626,0.009858,0.006 059,-0.004437,-0.005904,-0.005269
Celtic-Gaelic,0.125205,0.125926,0.062979,0.069445,0.02523 5,0.028168,0.004935,0.000462,0.001227,-0.007289,-0.002598,0.010341,-0.012636,-0.01156,0.023751,0.008884,-0.013299,0.010515,0.004274,0.007253,0.00262,0.0038 33,-0.001972,0.015424,-0.005029
Celtic-Pict,0.130897,0.140143,0.060716,0.052649,0.042162, 0.017291,0.00705,0.003692,0.00634,0.001822,-0.00682,0.004946,-0.019326,-0.016652,0.020765,0.018563,-0.009127,0.003421,0.004148,0.009379,0.008485,0.007 543,0.002711,0.006145,0.007784
Celtic-Briton,0.132035,0.138112,0.057699,0.053295,0.03877 6,0.017291,0.001645,0.003,0.007976,0.00328,-0.00682,0.005845,-0.015609,-0.017478,0.025108,0.011403,0.001434,-0.005194,-0.000754,0.006503,0.00836,-0.005812,-0.004437,0.013496,-0.005029
Proto-Balt,0.122929,0.126941,0.092395,0.098515,0.042469, 0.034582,-0.00188,0.010153,-0.000614,-0.04975,-0.000812,-0.018583,0.013082,0.032066,-0.0095,-0.000398,-0.006389,0.003041,-0.00817,-0.001251,-0.002496,0.005193,0.002342,-0.021328,0.00946
Proto-Balt,0.135449,0.129988,0.089755,0.089471,0.038469, 0.038208,0.016451,0.011999,-0.005727,-0.047017,-0.003573,-0.017085,0.017393,0.021744,-0.009772,-0.006762,-0.011213,0.002154,-0.001634,0.002626,-0.004367,-0.00272,-0.001356,-0.007591,0.008861
Proto-German,0.133173,0.125926,0.076933,0.061047,0.04123 8,0.021196,0.002585,0.006461,0.000205,-0.012028,-0.000974,0.004046,-0.000297,-0.006331,0.018051,0.013259,0.009648,0.001647,-0.000754,0.00075,0.002371,0.000371,0.005176,0.0128 93,0.001437
Proto-German,0.129758,0.131003,0.084475,0.078489,0.04154 6,0.020638,-0.004465,0.017768,-0.005931,-0.011663,-0.011854,0.007493,-0.006244,-0.007844,0.020765,-0.005038,-0.015255,-0.005321,0.00176,0.008004,0.008235,-0.004328,-0.003944,0.005302,-0.012214
Proto-German,0.127482,0.120848,0.072784,0.070414,0.04277 7,0.031794,0.00611,0.014307,0.009817,-0.022051,-0.001461,-0.001349,0.00892,0.012386,0.012893,-0.007558,-0.01708,0.002027,0.00176,0.001626,0.001497,0.00507 ,0.006902,-0.000241,0.00467
Saami,0.097888,-0.129988,0.121056,0.103683,-0.059088,-0.000837,-0.00235,0.003231,0.005727,-0.053577,0.035401,-0.01079,0.023786,-0.049544,-0.005972,0.009016,-0.003912,-0.001394,-0.004022,0.001751,0.007112,0.00643,0.006655,-0.018436,0.001557
Saami,0.092197,-0.136081,0.121433,0.114666,-0.061858,-0.001952,-0.00658,-0.005077,-0.001432,-0.040274,0.035888,-0.009142,0.021407,-0.04514,-0.002036,0.012596,-0.004303,0.004687,0,0.008254,0.005615,0.004699,0.0 08751,-0.022533,-0.000958
Finn,0.127482,0.089367,0.102954,0.102391,0.035083, 0.03263,0.00799,0.016153,-0.007158,-0.046835,0.011205,-0.019782,0.02884,0.000275,-0.005293,0.008221,0.021513,0.000633,-0.000628,0.006128,-0.000125,0.000247,-0.00456,-0.01687,0.001916
West_Scythian,0.106994,0.066009,0.032055,0.055233, 0.001846,0.015897,-0.000235,0.018922,-0.009817,-0.016037,0.003085,-0.002098,-0.007136,-0.003165,0.008143,0.014717,0.010431,0.011149,-0.010684,0.002376,0.000374,-0.009892,0.003328,0.004458,-0.005029
West_Scythian,0.114961,0.093429,0.036581,0.03876,0 .000615,0.005299,0.001645,0.006,-0.006954,-0.015855,0.001299,-3e-04,-0.004906,-0.004679,0.009229,0.007558,-0.00013,-0.00114,0.001131,0.001626,-0.002246,0.001607,-0.004683,-0.011206,0.00455
West_Scythian,0.10927,0.081242,0.028661,0.050065,-0.00677,0.014781,0.013631,0.011769,-0.011658,-0.008018,-0.021598,-0.01109,0.015907,-0.009771,0.003664,0.004773,-0.005476,0.002534,-0.006913,0.007754,-0.018717,-0.009892,-0.008997,-0.004217,0.007784
West_Scythian,0.10927,0.060932,0.027907,0.03553,-0.001539,0.01506,-0.000705,-0.011769,-0.006136,-0.011481,-0.010068,0.000749,-0.024083,-0.01445,0.01045,-0.018032,-0.004824,0.001267,-0.004902,0.000125,-0.007487,-0.00507,-0.000739,0.00012,-0.008502
Cimerian,0.106994,0.002031,0.023759,0.033592,-0.031698,0.00251,0.004465,0.006923,-0.028633,-0.030251,-0.009581,0.001798,0,-0.018029,0.021172,0.00769,0.009518,0.002914,0.0114 39,-0.014382,-0.012603,-0.005564,-0.003821,0.011568,0.006466
Sarmatian,0.10927,0.015233,0.041483,0.068153,-0.03139,0.019522,-0.003055,-0.010846,-0.029656,-0.031162,-0.006658,0.000599,-0.008771,-0.012937,0.014658,0.008486,0.000782,0.006968,-0.004399,0.000625,0.003619,0.001113,0.000739,-0.000602,-0.000599
Scythian,0.0774,-0.078196,0.057699,0.047158,-0.039084,0.007809,-0.004465,0.000231,-0.01718,-0.017677,-0.008282,-0.006444,-0.00773,-0.020919,0.012079,0.009149,-0.005085,-0.006334,0.006662,-0.003377,-0.01722,0.00915,-0.003944,0.009278,0.006706
Scythian,0.083091,-0.096475,0.061471,0.046189,-0.042777,0.005857,0.0047,0.001154,-0.010635,-0.020957,-0.018999,-0.008243,0.001338,-0.020781,0.017372,0.009016,-0.014342,0.004561,-0.003017,-0.003877,-0.020339,0.011871,-0.001109,-0.007712,-0.00479
Kushan,0.095611,0.016248,-0.012822,0.043282,-0.054472,0.007251,-0.001645,-0.000462,-0.030679,-0.030069,-0.003735,0.001798,0,-0.015138,0.004479,0.00769,0.001173,0.004561,0.0043 99,-0.009129,-0.013851,0.003833,-0.004067,-0.001566,-0.001437
Hun-Sarmatian:DA20,0.039838,-0.406212,0.092772,-0.025194,-0.087401,-0.046296,0.019976,0.016153,0.004704,0.009841,-0.012666,0.00015,-0.01115,0.000138,-0.001764,-0.006099,-0.001043,-0.000127,-0.001885,0.007754,-0.01959,0.006183,-0.019227,-0.002289,-0.002155
Finno-Ugric_Taiga_Hunter-Gatherer,0.094473,-0.01828,0.041106,0.047481,-0.048932,0.014502,-0.002115,-0.010615,-0.025361,-0.024602,-0.000974,0.002248,0.002081,-0.026561,0.015608,0.030496,0.005607,-0.001774,0.006411,0.007253,-0.018093,0.004822,0.009983,0.002048,-0.008981
Paleo-siberian_Taiga_Hunter-Gatherers,0.044391,-0.366606,0.102577,0.025194,-0.096633,-0.037092,-0.042537,-0.039921,0.001432,-0.004009,0.023546,-0.000599,-0.000743,-0.01445,-0.024973,-0.015646,-0.008605,0.01723,0.034818,0.022011,0.030945,-0.051934,0.012941,0.024461,0.023231
Paleo-siberian_Taiga_Hunter-Gatherers,0.043253,-0.324969,0.09956,0.024225,-0.085862,-0.033467,-0.037367,-0.042921,0.002863,-0.008018,0.016401,-0.005395,0.005203,-0.018441,-0.023208,-0.010475,-0.001304,0.011149,0.034567,0.014132,0.022835,-0.052058,0.008134,0.022292,0.021914
East_Paleo-siberian_Taiga_Hunter-Gatherers,0.029594,-0.437693,0.075801,-0.030685,-0.068936,-0.041834,0.005405,0.020768,0.011249,0.018588,-0.037674,-0.002098,-0.00996,0.005643,0.005293,0.00358,-0.00326,0.000633,-0.001006,0.02076,-0.021712,-0.001855,-0.023294,-0.009158,0.00012
East_Paleo-siberian_Taiga_Hunter-Gatherers,0.029594,-0.437693,0.086738,-0.030039,-0.063089,-0.051316,0.019271,0.021922,0.012885,0.016766,-0.038648,0.00045,-0.001635,0.00055,-0.003936,-0.000265,0.004433,-0.003167,-0.002011,0.01063,-0.029074,-0.001607,-0.02884,-0.008796,0.000718
East_Paleo-siberian_Taiga_Hunter-Gatherers,0.028456,-0.433631,0.085984,-0.029716,-0.070167,-0.040439,0.011751,0.019384,0.013499,0.012574,-0.036375,-0.003147,-0.001041,-0.010322,-0.00285,-0.00305,0.001565,-0.00266,0.000503,0.022761,-0.038807,0.001855,-0.020706,-0.003615,0.001916
East_Paleo-siberian_Taiga_Hunter-Gatherers,0.026179,-0.4316,0.078441,-0.030039,-0.072321,-0.048527,0.011281,0.017307,0.014317,0.016583,-0.041084,-0.004796,-0.00446,-0.003028,-0.001221,-0.009149,-0.001173,-0.004561,-0.001131,0.016383,-0.021213,0.015333,-0.018241,-0.010604,0.007424
Tungusic_Hunter-Gatherer,0.022765,-0.468159,0.093149,-0.044251,-0.088632,-0.05271,0.013866,0.025614,0.006749,0.020046,-0.039948,0.001499,-0.006244,0.021882,0.003122,-0.002917,0.001434,-0.003674,0.01081,0.034016,-0.029822,-0.029306,-0.050408,-0.005784,-0.003832
East_Turco-Mongolic_transhumant_pastoralits,0.062603,-0.213261,0.059585,0.025194,-0.049855,-0.004183,0.00235,0.017076,-0.000614,-0.007836,-0.014615,-0.001649,0.003568,-0.027662,0.009093,0.007292,-0.000782,-0.001394,-0.001885,0.004252,-0.015223,0.012984,-0.01023,0.000361,0.001317
East_Turco-Mongolic_transhumant_pastoralits,0.067156,-0.195997,0.069013,0.02907,-0.054779,-0.015339,-0.001645,-0.001385,-0.00859,-0.011663,-0.016239,-0.003147,0.001784,-0.016239,0.006922,0.01074,0.00013,-0.004307,-0.005154,0.007629,-0.026453,0.004204,0.000986,0.00482,0.005628
Central_Turco-Mongolic_transhumant_pastoralits,0.056912,-0.188888,0.033187,0.033915,-0.029236,0.007809,-0.00564,-0.013615,-0.012067,-0.015308,-0.022247,-0.006744,0.01219,-0.021469,0.013572,0.008353,0.000782,0.008108,-0.008925,0.00075,-0.011979,0.003215,-0.008134,0,0.002634
Central_Turco-Mongolic_transhumant_pastoralits,0.0774,-0.175687,0.059585,0.013889,-0.050471,0.016455,-0.011045,-0.008769,-0.016362,-0.034989,-0.02241,0.005545,0.008176,-0.009771,0.007736,0.005569,-0.008605,-0.009248,0.004651,0.007379,-0.0141,0.000371,0.012078,-0.006266,-0.004431
Zhou,0.022765,-0.441755,0.009428,-0.061693,0.059396,0.028168,0.005405,-0.004846,-0.016362,0.001458,-0.082818,-0.008692,0.014271,-0.013074,-0.006107,0.000133,0.008605,0.003674,-0.006662,-0.013882,0.02009,0.007419,0.004807,-0.007953,0.001197
Gojoseon-Korean:91KLH11,0.027318,-0.442771,0.024513,-0.065892,0.016311,-0.005578,0.00141,0.016384,-0.00225,0.005285,-0.064468,-0.001199,0.00996,-0.001101,-0.005157,0.000928,0,-0.006841,-0.004651,0.003252,0.005366,0.002473,-0.004807,-0.00494,-0.010658
Gojoseon-Korean:91KLH18,0.021626,-0.452926,0.029415,-0.05814,0.018773,0,-0.001175,0.004615,-0.004295,0.009659,-0.067391,-3e-04,0.011298,-0.000963,-0.013165,-0.002784,0.005476,0.003801,0.002891,-0.009254,0.012478,-0.002473,0.006655,-0.000723,0.003233
Burmese,0.002276,-0.380824,-0.079195,-0.03553,0.148643,0.06777,-0.00047,-0.013615,0.00409,-0.020593,0.082006,0.007643,-0.022002,0.005643,0.004614,-0.004375,0.000782,-0.001774,-0.006411,0.019509,-0.011854,0.014096,-0.008627,-0.005663,0.036643
Tibetan,0.012521,-0.410274,-0.011691,-0.031331,0.017542,0.011435,0.00658,0.011999,0.0100 22,0.021139,-0.081194,-0.006444,0.010109,-0.004679,-0.011401,0,0.011213,-0.001267,-0.009302,0.009379,0.004991,0.029306,0.004314,0.003 615,0.031734
Dong_Son,0.034147,-0.391994,-0.034695,-0.05491,0.126485,0.039602,0.00047,-0.013615,-0.023725,-0.005103,0.018837,0.006444,0.008176,-0.00812,-0.007329,0.014585,-0.011083,0.008108,-0.012821,-0.006378,0.002246,0.017311,-0.002835,-0.005663,-0.006945
Dong_Son,0.043253,-0.370668,-0.046386,-0.059755,0.139411,0.071675,-0.001175,-0.011769,-0.023316,-0.002734,0.033939,-0.012139,0.006392,-0.016239,0.006107,0.005834,-0.00691,0.010262,0.015084,-0.018759,0.0141,0.002473,0.014666,0.014701,0.01125 6
Austro-Asiatic_Rice_farmers,0.011382,-0.388948,-0.050534,-0.042959,0.12033,0.069165,-0.006345,-0.002077,0.004704,-0.024966,0.047255,0.003147,-0.014271,-0.007432,0.002986,-0.007425,0.013169,-0.004687,-0.002514,0.014257,0.004866,0.018672,-0.013434,-0.001325,0.04287
Austronesian_Farmers,0,-0.395041,-0.084098,-0.034561,0.154183,0.068049,-0.007285,-0.010615,-0.005522,-0.018224,0.090938,0.017834,-0.015163,0.006331,0.006922,-0.001061,-0.001695,-0.006841,-0.003394,0.019259,-0.01697,0.012984,-0.009737,0.00723,0.048379
Thais,0.012521,-0.395041,-0.046386,-0.023256,0.122792,0.048248,-0.00282,0.002077,-0.015953,-0.006014,0.020461,-0.003897,-0.004311,0.007432,0,-0.000663,-0.00013,-0.006334,-0.00352,0.02151,-0.007487,0.013973,-0.017131,0.005181,0.02862
Thais,0.001138,-0.397072,-0.031301,-0.042636,0.104019,0.048248,0.002115,0.003461,-0.0045,-0.00656,0.013316,0.002548,-0.004608,0.002202,0.003664,0.001989,0.002347,-0.005448,-0.00264,0.013632,-0.001622,0.024236,-0.001849,0.008917,0.045385
Thais,0.007968,-0.401134,-0.037712,-0.046189,0.085862,0.046017,0.00329,-0.011999,-0.001636,-0.011845,0.024196,0.007643,-0.005946,-0.001101,0.005157,0.004641,-0.002608,-0.001647,-0.003268,0.011506,-0.010482,0.026833,0.01023,0.010122,0.037721
Jomon,0.011382,-0.339187,-0.051666,0.01615,0.040623,0.008925,-0.00564,-0.002538,0.019021,0.01877,-0.051964,-0.002098,0.007433,-0.011285,-0.023344,-0.013657,0.005737,0.010769,0.005531,-0.012756,0.066882,-0.041671,0.01442,0.01217,-0.099752
Arctic_Marine_Mamels_hunters,0.01935,-0.448864,0.067127,-0.049742,-0.041238,-0.046017,0.00846,0.003,0.003681,0.024602,-0.054563,-0.001798,-0.001933,0.012799,-0.010858,-0.005569,0.002477,0.000127,0.017849,0.012631,0.014 599,-0.029553,-0.019843,-0.000843,-0.010538
Arctic_Marine_Mamels_hunters,0.025041,-0.446833,0.069013,-0.050065,-0.037545,-0.036256,0.002115,0.008307,0.007772,0.024237,-0.04417,-0.002997,-0.002081,0.003578,-0.009772,-0.01074,0.004563,0.007095,0.015838,0.005503,0.0086 1,-0.020155,-0.01442,-0.001205,-0.017364
Arctic_Marine_Mamels_hunters,0.006829,-0.439724,0.07467,-0.051357,-0.03693,-0.036256,-0.007755,0.010384,0.012271,0.014943,-0.040922,-0.008992,-0.013082,0.008808,-0.005429,-0.01896,0.005998,0.01875,0.016341,0.012131,0.00087 3,-0.035365,-0.01405,-0.008314,-0.017962
Arctic_Marine_Mamels_hunters,0.013659,-0.44074,0.078064,-0.053295,-0.033852,-0.039602,0.01081,0.01223,0.00225,0.01385,-0.054725,-0.005545,0.004757,0.009496,-0.012351,-0.018297,-0.016168,0.009628,0.019735,0.00988,0.01123,-0.025843,-0.021568,0.000602,-0.012454
Greenlander_East,0.061464,-0.312783,0.118416,0.04845,-0.106481,-0.031236,-0.1168,-0.134994,0.003681,-0.020228,0.016888,-0.006294,0.015461,-0.021332,-0.039223,-0.012198,-0.000261,0.014316,0.032304,0.016633,0.028075,-0.048101,0.007272,0.031932,0.042511
Greenlander_West,0.067156,-0.267084,0.106725,0.056525,-0.09294,-0.020917,-0.094239,-0.110534,0.003272,-0.015855,0.019811,-0.005395,0.006392,-0.007156,-0.023208,-0.013259,-0.018645,0.012542,0.027528,0.014507,0.020339,-0.044886,0.000739,0.028076,0.037362
Subartic_Forest_Hunter-Gatherer,0.088782,-0.137096,0.098051,0.062985,-0.049548,-0.003068,-0.063923,-0.081458,-0.000818,-0.030433,0.00406,-0.009442,0.017096,-0.000963,-0.026873,-0.002784,0.005085,0.001647,0.00817,0.007629,-0.001622,-0.023494,0.001232,0.006386,0.020717
North_West-Pacific_Amerindian_Hunters-Fisher1:HGDP01037,0.054635,-0.303643,0.103331,0.085918,-0.107712,-0.014781,-0.263447,-0.316833,-0.012271,-0.014761,0.001137,0.004046,-0.000446,0.021607,-0.007465,0.012066,0.007432,0.009628,0.003394,-0.002876,-0.006114,0.007048,-0.008874,0.005543,0.002994
North_East_Amerindian_Woodland-Hunter-Gatherer:S_North_East_Amerindian-1,0.079676,-0.170609,0.089755,0.055556,-0.061858,-0.003626,-0.131841,-0.161762,-0.006954,-0.015672,0.002761,-0.00045,0.00669,-0.00055,-0.010722,0.004906,0.010561,0.003167,0.003268,0.004 377,-0.007612,-0.005812,0.006409,0.008194,-0.005628
North_East_Amerindian_Woodland-Hunter-Gatherer:S_North_East_Amerindian-2,0.071709,-0.207168,0.103708,0.069445,-0.078784,-0.015897,-0.169208,-0.192915,-0.001023,-0.014214,-0.00065,-0.003447,0.000892,0.004817,-0.004614,0.002254,0.004824,0.001394,0.003897,0.007 754,-0.002995,-0.004699,0.007395,0.010724,0.005029
Caribean_Hunter-Gatherer,0.050082,-0.316845,0.114645,0.102068,-0.114791,-0.014502,-0.307629,-0.359523,-0.009613,-0.019499,-0.005034,-0.002698,-0.002081,0.015276,-0.002307,0.00305,0.008214,0.003547,-0.001006,0.002501,0.002496,0.004946,-0.007148,-0.001446,-0.010538
Andean-Pacific_Amerindian,0.061464,-0.314814,0.115022,0.09367,-0.108328,-0.017291,-0.285068,-0.33714,-0.014317,-0.014397,0.000812,-0.001049,0.000892,0.017616,-0.007465,0.006629,0.007823,0,-0.002137,-0.003126,-0.004492,0.00371,-0.002218,0.003133,-0.00455
Mesoamerica_Pacific_Amerindian,0.053497,-0.312783,0.109365,0.094639,-0.11356,-0.014223,-0.286008,-0.342678,-0.012476,-0.015308,-0.005846,0.000749,-0.002379,0.021744,-0.005157,0.00358,0.000522,0.002914,0.001383,-0.002126,0.00025,0.009892,-0.000616,-0.003253,0
Mesoamerica_Pacific_Amerindian,0.050082,-0.303643,0.112759,0.098192,-0.103096,-0.01506,-0.273787,-0.332294,-0.008181,-0.017677,-0.008444,-0.009292,-0.000297,0.024359,-0.00095,-0.008486,-0.00352,-0.000887,0.015461,-0.003126,-0.004742,0.005193,0.005546,-0.000361,-0.000479
Amazonian_Manioc-Farmer:HGDP00843,0.053497,-0.311768,0.11653,0.11079,-0.119407,-0.026216,-0.33489,-0.398983,-0.019839,-0.022962,0.006496,-0.007943,0.005798,0.039635,-0.016151,0.000133,0.009127,-0.00266,-0.006788,0.001,-0.004118,0.012365,-0.010599,-0.00976,-0.007185
Polynesian,-0.030732,-0.280286,-0.183658,0.179912,0.159414,-0.2867,-0.00564,0.004846,-0.016975,-0.011845,0.007145,0.002398,-0.001635,-0.006468,-0.001357,0.001591,0.00352,0.000507,-0.001634,-0.007253,-0.004492,-0.0115,-0.002095,-0.008073,-0.017603
Polynesian,-0.0387,-0.243727,-0.214582,0.239021,0.168955,-0.393794,0.001645,0.010615,-0.022498,-0.012028,-0.002761,0.007343,0.009366,-0.007432,-0.0095,-0.001061,-0.000391,0.002534,0.00264,0.009254,-0.000749,0.000866,-0.002711,-0.014701,-0.013292
Proto-Polynesian:I1368_all,0.007968,-0.415352,-0.050157,-0.055233,0.139718,0.062472,-0.01081,-0.019845,-0.017385,-0.022051,0.063007,0.004196,-0.016055,0.017753,0.024294,0.014585,-0.009909,0.00152,0.011439,-0.01088,0.006738,-0.020279,0.003081,-0.013014,-0.06215
Proto-Polynesian:I1369_all,0.004553,-0.428553,-0.045254,-0.066861,0.153259,0.05522,-0.002115,-0.011769,-0.02577,-0.028247,0.051477,0.001499,0.000297,-0.000688,0.016422,0.016839,-0.005607,0.00114,0.011439,-0.007253,0.004367,-0.035983,-0.006162,-0.021569,-0.064186

He is a simple EBA-IBA calculator. My mom and her brother are full ashkenazim.

Baltic:Baltic_EST_BA,0.1321485,0.1213556,0.0992205 ,0.111662,0.051671,0.040746,0.0158398,0.0204684,-0.0029042,-0.050607,0.0009094,-0.0182389,0.0359462,0.0400344,-0.0180239,0.0018297,0.0103654,-0.000684,-0.0013952,0.0046272,-0.0024957,-0.0062692,0.0106487,-0.017388,0.002359
Mediterranean:ITA_Sicily_EBA,0.1261809,0.1608887,0 .0286611,-0.0403289,0.05157,-0.021395,-0.0017121,-9.87e-05,0.0323441,0.061908,9.29e-05,0.010041,-0.0204727,-0.0057407,-0.0149486,-0.0053794,0.0081584,-0.0026244,0.0012749,-0.0045557,-0.0057397,0.0005476,-0.0080463,-0.0087791,0.0016936
Aegeon:GRC_Manika_Helladic_EBA,0.1161,0.176702,-0.000377,-0.091086,0.029236,-0.033188,-0.00423,-0.007846,0.027406,0.065241,0.002436,0.01169,-0.019921,0.004954,-0.030401,-0.019888,0.010691,0.003294,0.006662,-0.020635,-0.010482,0.002597,0.000863,0.007591,-0.003592
Proto_Canaan:Levant_Yehud_IBA,0.087644,0.160454,-0.054682,-0.102391,-0.006155,-0.041555,-0.004935,-0.002769,0.026588,0.013668,0.019487,-0.008243,0.016204,0.030139,-0.007329,-0.007823,-0.026077,0.003421,0.006662,0.005753,-0.00861,0.013973,-0.006039,0.003374,-0.002515
Proto_Canaan:Canaan:Levant_Megiddo_IBA,0.078538,0. 152329,-0.058077,-0.112405,0.001846,-0.044344,-0.01034,-0.009,0.030883,0.00164,0.012829,-0.013038,0.026016,-0.001651,-0.008686,0.013259,-0.005085,0.008868,-0.000126,0.001751,-0.000624,0.006059,-0.008134,0.000241,-0.004431
North_Europe:DEU_Tollense_BA,0.1250158,0.1416662,0 .0726272,0.052326,0.0515992,0.0112486,0.0058362,0. 0058652,0.0164299,0.0074565,-0.005183,-0.0020358,-0.0029857,-0.0002523,0.001425,-0.0011711,0.0019774,0.0017208,0.0029226,0.0064408, 0.0023292,1.04e-05,-0.0061419,-0.0125017,0.0026943
North_Africa:MAR_LN,0.021626,0.148267,0.003394,-0.095285,0.047393,-0.054384,-0.027731,0.008769,0.083855,0.054124,0.020136,0.001 798,0.002973,-0.028901,0.004343,0.009944,0.032726,-0.014062,-0.033938,-5e-04,-0.018343,-0.02201,0.011709,-0.009881,-0.004191
Anatolian:TUR_Arslantepe_EBA,0.1032945,0.1546142,-0.0594908,-0.089552,-0.0198495,-0.0290045,0.0017625,-0.010615,-0.0177422,0.012483,0.0054808,0.0017985,-0.005649,0.003888,-0.0106202,-0.0020882,0.0073667,0.0017735,0.0029852,0.0010945,-0.001435,0.004235,-0.0016332,-0.0043682,-0.000509
Anatolian:Asia_Minor:TUR_Ovaoren_EBA,0.0990263,0.1 51991,-0.0452547,-0.0812883,-0.0043087,-0.022776,-0.0019583,-0.0081533,-0.0088627,0.027457,0.0073077,0.0044463,-0.0130327,-0.0065143,-0.0147933,-0.000442,0.0126037,0.003801,0.0043577,-0.0017507,0.0003327,0.0055233,-0.0028757,0.0011247,-0.0024747
Anatolian:Asia_Minor:TUR_Isparta_EBA,0.114582,0.15 90993,-0.040226,-0.0802117,-0.004411,-0.024728,7.83e-05,-0.003846,-0.0115897,0.0329847,0.0068207,0.003497,-0.012686,-0.003257,-0.0225297,0.0032263,0.0214267,-0.0024493,0.0070393,-0.0007087,-0.0044507,-0.003215,0.000575,-0.003213,-0.0022353
Eblaite:SYR_Ebla_EMBA,0.0919897,0.1485443,-0.0651733,-0.095432,-0.0144361,-0.0369149,-0.0034183,-0.0085171,0.0012643,0.0095922,0.0093005,-0.0033243,0.0091225,-3.75e-05,-0.0105985,0.0009522,-0.0016595,0.000691,0.0035425,-0.0003752,0.0012025,0.0049575,-0.0019272,-0.0025085,-0.0002941
Elamite:IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA1,0.0736055,0.0626243 ,-0.1309865,0.0219102,-0.1084818,0.0284002,0.0085778,-0.0026922,-0.0638455,-0.0369028,-0.0050612,0.0005995,-0.0060207,-0.0083718,0.021127,0.0313133,-0.0025208,0.002196,0.0030587,-0.0245952,0.007965,-0.016961,-0.0021363,-0.0190187,0.0136515
Caucasus:GEO_CHG,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036
E_Asia:CHN_Upper_Yellow_River_LN,0.0170734,-0.4421616,0.022778,-0.0515508,0.0196344,-0.0039602,0.0089774,0.0057692,-0.0035588,0.0106792,-0.0916846,-0.0111202,0.0117144,-0.0013762,-0.0077904,-0.0013258,-0.0005476,-0.0033952,-0.0051536,0.0010756,0.0009234,0.0163468,0.0057188, 0.0008918,0.025794
Sidonite:Levant_Sidon_MBA,0.0812696,0.1468454,-0.0613196,-0.0979336,-0.0105248,-0.0389334,-0.0047942,-0.0065998,0.0114534,0.0101686,0.0104904,-0.0097712,0.0215854,0.005505,-0.0075734,0.0065234,-0.0001562,-0.0011906,0.0015086,0.004252,0.0042674,0.007543,-0.0012572,0.0015906,-0.0005028

Gentica277282
01-26-2022, 01:27 AM
He is a simple EBA-IBA calculator. My mom and her brother are full ashkenazim.

Baltic:Baltic_EST_BA,0.1321485,0.1213556,0.0992205 ,0.111662,0.051671,0.040746,0.0158398,0.0204684,-0.0029042,-0.050607,0.0009094,-0.0182389,0.0359462,0.0400344,-0.0180239,0.0018297,0.0103654,-0.000684,-0.0013952,0.0046272,-0.0024957,-0.0062692,0.0106487,-0.017388,0.002359
Mediterranean:ITA_Sicily_EBA,0.1261809,0.1608887,0 .0286611,-0.0403289,0.05157,-0.021395,-0.0017121,-9.87e-05,0.0323441,0.061908,9.29e-05,0.010041,-0.0204727,-0.0057407,-0.0149486,-0.0053794,0.0081584,-0.0026244,0.0012749,-0.0045557,-0.0057397,0.0005476,-0.0080463,-0.0087791,0.0016936
Aegeon:GRC_Manika_Helladic_EBA,0.1161,0.176702,-0.000377,-0.091086,0.029236,-0.033188,-0.00423,-0.007846,0.027406,0.065241,0.002436,0.01169,-0.019921,0.004954,-0.030401,-0.019888,0.010691,0.003294,0.006662,-0.020635,-0.010482,0.002597,0.000863,0.007591,-0.003592
Proto_Canaan:Levant_Yehud_IBA,0.087644,0.160454,-0.054682,-0.102391,-0.006155,-0.041555,-0.004935,-0.002769,0.026588,0.013668,0.019487,-0.008243,0.016204,0.030139,-0.007329,-0.007823,-0.026077,0.003421,0.006662,0.005753,-0.00861,0.013973,-0.006039,0.003374,-0.002515
Proto_Canaan:Canaan:Levant_Megiddo_IBA,0.078538,0. 152329,-0.058077,-0.112405,0.001846,-0.044344,-0.01034,-0.009,0.030883,0.00164,0.012829,-0.013038,0.026016,-0.001651,-0.008686,0.013259,-0.005085,0.008868,-0.000126,0.001751,-0.000624,0.006059,-0.008134,0.000241,-0.004431
North_Europe:DEU_Tollense_BA,0.1250158,0.1416662,0 .0726272,0.052326,0.0515992,0.0112486,0.0058362,0. 0058652,0.0164299,0.0074565,-0.005183,-0.0020358,-0.0029857,-0.0002523,0.001425,-0.0011711,0.0019774,0.0017208,0.0029226,0.0064408, 0.0023292,1.04e-05,-0.0061419,-0.0125017,0.0026943
North_Africa:MAR_LN,0.021626,0.148267,0.003394,-0.095285,0.047393,-0.054384,-0.027731,0.008769,0.083855,0.054124,0.020136,0.001 798,0.002973,-0.028901,0.004343,0.009944,0.032726,-0.014062,-0.033938,-5e-04,-0.018343,-0.02201,0.011709,-0.009881,-0.004191
Anatolian:TUR_Arslantepe_EBA,0.1032945,0.1546142,-0.0594908,-0.089552,-0.0198495,-0.0290045,0.0017625,-0.010615,-0.0177422,0.012483,0.0054808,0.0017985,-0.005649,0.003888,-0.0106202,-0.0020882,0.0073667,0.0017735,0.0029852,0.0010945,-0.001435,0.004235,-0.0016332,-0.0043682,-0.000509
Anatolian:Asia_Minor:TUR_Ovaoren_EBA,0.0990263,0.1 51991,-0.0452547,-0.0812883,-0.0043087,-0.022776,-0.0019583,-0.0081533,-0.0088627,0.027457,0.0073077,0.0044463,-0.0130327,-0.0065143,-0.0147933,-0.000442,0.0126037,0.003801,0.0043577,-0.0017507,0.0003327,0.0055233,-0.0028757,0.0011247,-0.0024747
Anatolian:Asia_Minor:TUR_Isparta_EBA,0.114582,0.15 90993,-0.040226,-0.0802117,-0.004411,-0.024728,7.83e-05,-0.003846,-0.0115897,0.0329847,0.0068207,0.003497,-0.012686,-0.003257,-0.0225297,0.0032263,0.0214267,-0.0024493,0.0070393,-0.0007087,-0.0044507,-0.003215,0.000575,-0.003213,-0.0022353
Eblaite:SYR_Ebla_EMBA,0.0919897,0.1485443,-0.0651733,-0.095432,-0.0144361,-0.0369149,-0.0034183,-0.0085171,0.0012643,0.0095922,0.0093005,-0.0033243,0.0091225,-3.75e-05,-0.0105985,0.0009522,-0.0016595,0.000691,0.0035425,-0.0003752,0.0012025,0.0049575,-0.0019272,-0.0025085,-0.0002941
Elamite:IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA1,0.0736055,0.0626243 ,-0.1309865,0.0219102,-0.1084818,0.0284002,0.0085778,-0.0026922,-0.0638455,-0.0369028,-0.0050612,0.0005995,-0.0060207,-0.0083718,0.021127,0.0313133,-0.0025208,0.002196,0.0030587,-0.0245952,0.007965,-0.016961,-0.0021363,-0.0190187,0.0136515
Caucasus:GEO_CHG,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036
E_Asia:CHN_Upper_Yellow_River_LN,0.0170734,-0.4421616,0.022778,-0.0515508,0.0196344,-0.0039602,0.0089774,0.0057692,-0.0035588,0.0106792,-0.0916846,-0.0111202,0.0117144,-0.0013762,-0.0077904,-0.0013258,-0.0005476,-0.0033952,-0.0051536,0.0010756,0.0009234,0.0163468,0.0057188, 0.0008918,0.025794
Sidonite:Levant_Sidon_MBA,0.0812696,0.1468454,-0.0613196,-0.0979336,-0.0105248,-0.0389334,-0.0047942,-0.0065998,0.0114534,0.0101686,0.0104904,-0.0097712,0.0215854,0.005505,-0.0075734,0.0065234,-0.0001562,-0.0011906,0.0015086,0.004252,0.0042674,0.007543,-0.0012572,0.0015906,-0.0005028

Had to make a few changes for it to work for me

Distance: 1.6688% / 0.01668797
42.0 Proto_Canaan
22.2 Iberomaurusian
22.0 Mediterranean
13.8 COG_Kindoki_230BP

Brothers results:

Target: brother_scaled
Distance: 1.9759% / 0.01975909
32.2 Proto_Canaan
26.0 Iberomaurusian
15.6 Mediterranean
13.8 COG_NgongoMbata_220BP
7.8 Aegeon
4.6 North_EuropeEU_Tollense_BA

Levantine_Viking
01-26-2022, 01:42 AM
Had to make a few changes for it to work for me

Distance: 1.6688% / 0.01668797
42.0 Proto_Canaan
22.2 Iberomaurusian
22.0 Mediterranean
13.8 COG_Kindoki_230BP

Brothers results:

Target: brother_scaled
Distance: 1.9759% / 0.01975909
32.2 Proto_Canaan
26.0 Iberomaurusian
15.6 Mediterranean
13.8 COG_NgongoMbata_220BP
7.8 Aegeon
4.6 North_EuropeEU_Tollense_BA

What are components of iberomarusian?

Abceff
01-26-2022, 07:05 AM
What are components of iberomarusian?

Target: MAR_Taforalt:TAF009
Distance: 4.0933% / 0.04093284
48.2 Ancestral_N_African
21.4 ITA_Villabruna
11.4 TUR_Barcin_N
7.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
7.0 PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H_o
2.8 Basal_East_African
0.8 Basal_Central-West_African
0.6 Nganassan

Abceff
01-26-2022, 07:09 AM
He is a simple EBA-IBA calculator. My mom and her brother are full ashkenazim.

Baltic:Baltic_EST_BA,0.1321485,0.1213556,0.0992205 ,0.111662,0.051671,0.040746,0.0158398,0.0204684,-0.0029042,-0.050607,0.0009094,-0.0182389,0.0359462,0.0400344,-0.0180239,0.0018297,0.0103654,-0.000684,-0.0013952,0.0046272,-0.0024957,-0.0062692,0.0106487,-0.017388,0.002359
Mediterranean:ITA_Sicily_EBA,0.1261809,0.1608887,0 .0286611,-0.0403289,0.05157,-0.021395,-0.0017121,-9.87e-05,0.0323441,0.061908,9.29e-05,0.010041,-0.0204727,-0.0057407,-0.0149486,-0.0053794,0.0081584,-0.0026244,0.0012749,-0.0045557,-0.0057397,0.0005476,-0.0080463,-0.0087791,0.0016936
Aegeon:GRC_Manika_Helladic_EBA,0.1161,0.176702,-0.000377,-0.091086,0.029236,-0.033188,-0.00423,-0.007846,0.027406,0.065241,0.002436,0.01169,-0.019921,0.004954,-0.030401,-0.019888,0.010691,0.003294,0.006662,-0.020635,-0.010482,0.002597,0.000863,0.007591,-0.003592
Proto_Canaan:Levant_Yehud_IBA,0.087644,0.160454,-0.054682,-0.102391,-0.006155,-0.041555,-0.004935,-0.002769,0.026588,0.013668,0.019487,-0.008243,0.016204,0.030139,-0.007329,-0.007823,-0.026077,0.003421,0.006662,0.005753,-0.00861,0.013973,-0.006039,0.003374,-0.002515
Proto_Canaan:Canaan:Levant_Megiddo_IBA,0.078538,0. 152329,-0.058077,-0.112405,0.001846,-0.044344,-0.01034,-0.009,0.030883,0.00164,0.012829,-0.013038,0.026016,-0.001651,-0.008686,0.013259,-0.005085,0.008868,-0.000126,0.001751,-0.000624,0.006059,-0.008134,0.000241,-0.004431
North_Europe:DEU_Tollense_BA,0.1250158,0.1416662,0 .0726272,0.052326,0.0515992,0.0112486,0.0058362,0. 0058652,0.0164299,0.0074565,-0.005183,-0.0020358,-0.0029857,-0.0002523,0.001425,-0.0011711,0.0019774,0.0017208,0.0029226,0.0064408, 0.0023292,1.04e-05,-0.0061419,-0.0125017,0.0026943
North_Africa:MAR_LN,0.021626,0.148267,0.003394,-0.095285,0.047393,-0.054384,-0.027731,0.008769,0.083855,0.054124,0.020136,0.001 798,0.002973,-0.028901,0.004343,0.009944,0.032726,-0.014062,-0.033938,-5e-04,-0.018343,-0.02201,0.011709,-0.009881,-0.004191
Anatolian:TUR_Arslantepe_EBA,0.1032945,0.1546142,-0.0594908,-0.089552,-0.0198495,-0.0290045,0.0017625,-0.010615,-0.0177422,0.012483,0.0054808,0.0017985,-0.005649,0.003888,-0.0106202,-0.0020882,0.0073667,0.0017735,0.0029852,0.0010945,-0.001435,0.004235,-0.0016332,-0.0043682,-0.000509
Anatolian:Asia_Minor:TUR_Ovaoren_EBA,0.0990263,0.1 51991,-0.0452547,-0.0812883,-0.0043087,-0.022776,-0.0019583,-0.0081533,-0.0088627,0.027457,0.0073077,0.0044463,-0.0130327,-0.0065143,-0.0147933,-0.000442,0.0126037,0.003801,0.0043577,-0.0017507,0.0003327,0.0055233,-0.0028757,0.0011247,-0.0024747
Anatolian:Asia_Minor:TUR_Isparta_EBA,0.114582,0.15 90993,-0.040226,-0.0802117,-0.004411,-0.024728,7.83e-05,-0.003846,-0.0115897,0.0329847,0.0068207,0.003497,-0.012686,-0.003257,-0.0225297,0.0032263,0.0214267,-0.0024493,0.0070393,-0.0007087,-0.0044507,-0.003215,0.000575,-0.003213,-0.0022353
Eblaite:SYR_Ebla_EMBA,0.0919897,0.1485443,-0.0651733,-0.095432,-0.0144361,-0.0369149,-0.0034183,-0.0085171,0.0012643,0.0095922,0.0093005,-0.0033243,0.0091225,-3.75e-05,-0.0105985,0.0009522,-0.0016595,0.000691,0.0035425,-0.0003752,0.0012025,0.0049575,-0.0019272,-0.0025085,-0.0002941
Elamite:IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA1,0.0736055,0.0626243 ,-0.1309865,0.0219102,-0.1084818,0.0284002,0.0085778,-0.0026922,-0.0638455,-0.0369028,-0.0050612,0.0005995,-0.0060207,-0.0083718,0.021127,0.0313133,-0.0025208,0.002196,0.0030587,-0.0245952,0.007965,-0.016961,-0.0021363,-0.0190187,0.0136515
Caucasus:GEO_CHG,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036
E_Asia:CHN_Upper_Yellow_River_LN,0.0170734,-0.4421616,0.022778,-0.0515508,0.0196344,-0.0039602,0.0089774,0.0057692,-0.0035588,0.0106792,-0.0916846,-0.0111202,0.0117144,-0.0013762,-0.0077904,-0.0013258,-0.0005476,-0.0033952,-0.0051536,0.0010756,0.0009234,0.0163468,0.0057188, 0.0008918,0.025794
Sidonite:Levant_Sidon_MBA,0.0812696,0.1468454,-0.0613196,-0.0979336,-0.0105248,-0.0389334,-0.0047942,-0.0065998,0.0114534,0.0101686,0.0104904,-0.0097712,0.0215854,0.005505,-0.0075734,0.0065234,-0.0001562,-0.0011906,0.0015086,0.004252,0.0042674,0.007543,-0.0012572,0.0015906,-0.0005028

Target: scaled
Distance: 1.6614% / 0.01661425
36.2 Proto_Canaan
20.2 Aegeon
20.2 MAR_Taforalt
11.2 COG_NgongoMbata_220BP
8.8 North_EuropeEU_Tollense_BA
2.4 Mediterranean
1.0 Baltic

Gentica277282
01-26-2022, 07:25 AM
What are components of iberomarusian?
My friends model

Target: Iberomaurusian:MAR_Taforalt:TAF014
Distance: 3.1925% / 0.03192492
53.4 Dzudzuana
46.6 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)

Target: Iberomaurusian:MAR_Taforalt:TAF013
Distance: 2.5167% / 0.02516729
54.2 Dzudzuana
45.8 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)

Target: Iberomaurusian:MAR_Taforalt:TAF011
Distance: 2.0866% / 0.02086609
54.2 Dzudzuana
45.8 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)

Target: Iberomaurusian:MAR_Taforalt:TAF010
Distance: 3.0662% / 0.03066211
53.8 Dzudzuana
46.2 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)

Target: Iberomaurusian:MAR_Taforalt:TAF009
Distance: 4.8110% / 0.04810997
57.8 Dzudzuana
42.2 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)

Ajeje Brazorf
01-27-2022, 12:09 AM
Those 2 and it's possible it even gets to Cypriot.

I highly doubt they were Cypriot-like, not even the Lebanese of that period were (!). The following average is composed of samples dated between 93 BC and 544 AD.


Lebanon_Roman_Period,0.085241111,0.142964111,-0.05661,-0.088071333,-0.013164778,-0.029872333,-0.005822778,-0.007410111,0.007158333,0.010792333,0.004926,-0.009824556,0.015741556,-0.002217333,-0.009590889,0.011844667,0.005114,-0.002069333,0.002597667,0.001528667,0.001580556,0. 005880444,-0.002245778,0.000816667,-0.003778778

Individuals


Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic:SFI-20___BC_93___Coverage_57.76%,0.068294,0.145221,-0.057322,-0.086564,-0.010463,-0.030957,-0.002115,-0.013846,0.003886,0.006378,0.005846,-0.006744,0.017988,-0.002202,-0.004072,0.001061,-0.01004,0.002027,0.005782,-0.001876,0.002496,0.009769,-0.002465,-0.008917,-0.000958
Levant_Beirut_ERoman:SFI-15___BC_77___Coverage_78.41%,0.081953,0.137096,-0.060339,-0.096577,-0.018773,-0.033746,-0.00611,-0.009692,0.007567,0.010387,0.001949,-0.004646,0.013082,-0.001101,-0.006107,0.009016,-0.001173,-0.003801,0.005531,-0.002001,0.005116,0.004081,-0.004437,0.003012,-0.001916
Levant_Beirut_ERoman:SFI-11___BC_34___Coverage_10.99%,0.087644,0.129988,-0.062602,-0.092378,-0.018157,-0.03263,-0.008225,0.001154,0.008999,0.018224,0.00341,-0.011839,0.027948,-0.004817,-0.013436,0.01843,0.013951,-0.019383,0.00352,-0.002751,0.006988,0.005441,0.009244,-0.000723,0.001197
Levant_Beirut_ERoman:SFI-24___AD_4___Coverage_96.04%,0.081953,0.148267,-0.058077,-0.088502,-0.013849,-0.032351,-0.004465,-0.005769,0.008181,0.004738,0.014453,-0.010041,0.024232,-0.002477,-0.005157,0.022805,0.014212,-0.001647,-0.003897,0.008004,0.001248,0.006183,-0.002218,0.009158,-0.005628
Levant_Beirut_ERoman:SFI-33___AD_146___Coverage_95.82%,0.092197,0.147252,-0.049403,-0.086241,-0.010771,-0.026216,-0.001645,-0.008077,0.005113,0.008747,0.006171,-0.009591,0.006095,-0.002202,-0.015201,0.0179,0.018384,0.006841,0.002388,0.00337 7,-0.004243,0.003833,-0.006039,0.004338,-0.005508
Levant_LBN_Roman:QED-7___AD_323___Coverage_76.85%,0.092197,0.145221,-0.064865,-0.086564,-0.014772,-0.0251,-0.00658,-0.011769,-0.000409,0.005467,0.003248,-0.006744,0.012785,0.002752,-0.007057,0.008618,-0.009909,-0.005068,0.00729,0.001251,-0.001123,0.002844,-0.006655,-0.010363,0.001317
Levant_LBN_Roman:QED-2___AD_340___Coverage_70.86%,0.083091,0.145221,-0.050911,-0.085595,-0.003077,-0.029841,-0.00564,-0.003923,0.008795,0.005285,-0.001461,-0.013488,0.007582,-0.009083,-0.011808,0.014585,0.002738,0.002914,0.000377,-0.001876,0.002371,0.005564,-0.000863,-0.002289,-0.007544
Levant_LBN_Roman:QED-12___AD_425___Coverage_27.40%,0.087644,0.147252,-0.050534,-0.089148,-0.007694,-0.026774,-0.010105,-0.008538,0.015748,0.016037,0.007795,-0.013788,0.017096,-0.000138,-0.007465,-0.008486,0.007041,0.00038,-0.003268,0.00963,-0.001872,0.006801,-0.008997,0.006507,-0.011017
Levant_LBN_Roman:QED-4___AD_544___Coverage_56.41%,0.092197,0.141159,-0.055437,-0.081073,-0.020927,-0.031236,-0.00752,-0.006231,0.006545,0.021868,0.002923,-0.01154,0.014866,-0.000688,-0.016015,0.022673,0.010822,-0.000887,0.005656,0,0.003244,0.008408,0.002218,0.0 06627,-0.003952

Distances


Distance to: Lebanon_Roman_Period
0.01915694 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.01998809 Lebanese_Christian
0.02777987 Druze
0.02794348 Lebanese_Druze
0.03090392 Samaritan
0.03447328 Lebanese_Muslim
0.03473257 Karaite_Egypt
0.03905645 Cypriot
0.03912395 Iraqi_Jew
0.04064809 Kurdish_Jew
0.04286706 Syrian_Jew
0.04548373 Jordanian
0.04684779 Syrian
0.04789662 Palestinian

PCA

https://i.imgur.com/EhsiZij.png

In short, taking that average as a reference point, I would say that the maximum percentage of Levantine DNA among Ashkenazi Jews is between 37 and 45%. There is also some internal variation between them, which is observable in the PCA.

https://i.imgur.com/kUpjdSt.png

https://i.imgur.com/HGnDv1X.png

heksindhi
01-27-2022, 05:07 PM
This may be overly simplistic, but here's my attempt at a regional breakdown for the Ashkenazim

https://shared.genoplot.com/file/genofiles/heksindhi/chart-17e9c7bd901 (https://shared.genoplot.com/file/genofiles/heksindhi/chart-17e9c7bd901)

SampleFitMediterraneanLevantineEuropeanAverage (Ashkenazi Germany)1.0549.435.215.4
Average (Ashkenazi Russia)1.484136.422.6
Average (Ashkenazi Belarussia)1.11383725
Average (Ashkenazi Ukraine)1.2837.638.823.6
Average (Ashkenazi Poland)1.1337.438.823.8
Average (Ashkenazi Lithuania)1.2233.441.425.2

https://shared.genoplot.com/file/genofiles/heksindhi/pca-17e9c80d9a4 (https://shared.genoplot.com/file/genofiles/heksindhi/pca-17e9c80d9a4)

Levantine_Viking
01-28-2022, 02:22 AM
This may be overly simplistic, but here's my attempt at a regional breakdown for the Ashkenazim

https://shared.genoplot.com/file/genofiles/heksindhi/chart-17e9c7bd901 (https://shared.genoplot.com/file/genofiles/heksindhi/chart-17e9c7bd901)

SampleFitMediterraneanLevantineEuropeanAverage (Ashkenazi Germany)1.0549.435.215.4
Average (Ashkenazi Russia)1.484136.422.6
Average (Ashkenazi Belarussia)1.11383725
Average (Ashkenazi Ukraine)1.2837.638.823.6
Average (Ashkenazi Poland)1.1337.438.823.8
Average (Ashkenazi Lithuania)1.2233.441.425.2

https://shared.genoplot.com/file/genofiles/heksindhi/pca-17e9c80d9a4 (https://shared.genoplot.com/file/genofiles/heksindhi/pca-17e9c80d9a4)

Nice model but it's more complicated than that. North Africa, mesopotamia, and East Asian samples should be included as well as a slavic sample.

Also, the Italian samples are really mixed. Maybe try an Italic IA sample and a mycenean sample

heksindhi
01-28-2022, 09:41 AM
Nice model but it's more complicated than that. North Africa, mesopotamia, and East Asian samples should be included as well as a slavic sample.

Also, the Italian samples are really mixed. Maybe try an Italic IA sample and a mycenean sample

You're right of course. I wasn't attempting an elemental model. My goal was to determine the amount of additional admixture the Ashkenazim picked up as they migrated into Europe or
Levant > Roman Empire > Francia > Slavic Europe


I think the proportions are accurate in that sense, at least for the German Ashkenazi average. As they move further east, and pick up additional European/Slavic, the Mediterranean drops which shows up in the model as an artificial increase in the Levantine. Using the Italic IA sample would fix that.

In any case, as other have already noted, 35%-40% seems about right.

https://shared.genoplot.com/file/genofiles/heksindhi/chart-17ea00dadf3 (https://shared.genoplot.com/file/genofiles/heksindhi/chart-17ea00dadf3)

The Angel's Advocate
01-28-2022, 11:51 AM
I'd say it ranges from 35% to 45-50%.
Some Gedrosia Near East Neolithic K13 results of Ashkenazis:

#1
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 CHG_EEF 28.87
2 ANATOLIA_NEOLITHIC 20.34
3 NATUFIAN 16.93
4 IRAN_NEOLITHIC 15
5 EHG 7.18
6 SHG_WHG 5.11
7 SIBERIAN 3.65
8 ANCESTRAL_INDIAN 1.9
9 SUB_SAHARAN 0.62
10 PAPUAN 0.39

#2
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 CHG_EEF 32.6
2 ANATOLIA_NEOLITHIC 18.21
3 NATUFIAN 17.18
4 IRAN_NEOLITHIC 15.98
5 SHG_WHG 5.69
6 EHG 5.52
7 SUB_SAHARAN 2.01
8 SIBERIAN 1.84
9 PAPUAN 0.67
10 KARITIANA 0.31

#3
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 CHG_EEF 29.45
2 ANATOLIA_NEOLITHIC 19.97
3 NATUFIAN 19.83
4 IRAN_NEOLITHIC 15.33
5 SHG_WHG 5.81
6 EHG 5.11
7 SUB_SAHARAN 1.97
8 SIBERIAN 1.06
9 ANCESTRAL_INDIAN 0.97
10 KARITIANA 0.32
11 PAPUAN 0.19

Also Shai Carmi says: "Our most recent findings suggest that the Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry is roughly ≈40% Middle Eastern, ≈40% Southern European (or a closely related ancestry), and ≈20% Eastern European. Mixing with Southern Europeans occurred around ≈30-50 generations ago, and was followed by a dramatic decrease in population size around ≈25-30 generations ago, probably representing the early Jewish settlement in Poland. This founder event was followed by an extremely rapid expansion and mixing with (likely) Eastern Europeans."

alexfritz
01-28-2022, 01:30 PM
Nice model but it's more complicated than that. North Africa, mesopotamia, and East Asian samples should be included as well as a slavic sample.

Also, the Italian samples are really mixed. Maybe try an Italic IA sample and a mycenean sample

south italians (or aegeans) are actually a good ref. as thats exactly how the romans looked like, italy (cf viminatium / marathon) at the time of the jewish diaspora leaving judaea (?70-136AD)
italic ia was a thing of the past by then

Levantine_Viking
01-28-2022, 10:26 PM
south italians (or aegeans) are actually a good ref. as thats exactly how the romans looked like, italy (cf viminatium / marathon) at the time of the jewish diaspora leaving judaea (?70-136AD)
italic ia was a thing of the past by then

When modeling the "mena" admixture of ashkenazim its best to leave out modern Italians.

Levantine_Viking
01-28-2022, 10:27 PM
south italians (or aegeans) are actually a good ref. as thats exactly how the romans looked like, italy (cf viminatium / marathon) at the time of the jewish diaspora leaving judaea (?70-136AD)
italic ia was a thing of the past by then

Imperial Rome is way too mixed to use when you're trying to separate the components especially with g25.

Levantine_Viking
01-28-2022, 10:29 PM
You're right of course. I wasn't attempting an elemental model. My goal was to determine the amount of additional admixture the Ashkenazim picked up as they migrated into Europe or
Levant > Roman Empire > Francia > Slavic Europe


I think the proportions are accurate in that sense, at least for the German Ashkenazi average. As they move further east, and pick up additional European/Slavic, the Mediterranean drops which shows up in the model as an artificial increase in the Levantine. Using the Italic IA sample would fix that.

In any case, as other have already noted, 35%-40% seems about right.

https://shared.genoplot.com/file/genofiles/heksindhi/chart-17ea00dadf3 (https://shared.genoplot.com/file/genofiles/heksindhi/chart-17ea00dadf3)

Campania though isn't a good sample to use because it's modern south Italy and that in of itself is similar to ashkenazim. I think a Greek proxy might be better.

alexfritz
01-29-2022, 12:19 AM
When modeling the "mena" admixture of ashkenazim its best to leave out modern Italians.

judging by the model you can use both a mena and italian source
and yes you prob could use other sources for ashkenazim but if there was a roman input after the jewish diaspora ventured out of judaea into the other provinces modern south italians (or aegeans) will fully cover that bill


Imperial Rome is way too mixed to use when you're trying to separate the components especially with g25.

~50% Italic_IA ~50% ancient Near East (alalakh/israel) all on one cline
though the more near east pulled cluster will prob have a higher level of near east but both clusters are closely related nonetheless (based on the papers)

Aben Aboo
01-29-2022, 12:25 AM
deleted

Seabass
01-29-2022, 11:54 AM
Also Shai Carmi says: "Our most recent findings suggest that the Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry is roughly ≈40% Middle Eastern, ≈40% Southern European (or a closely related ancestry), and ≈20% Eastern European. Mixing with Southern Europeans occurred around ≈30-50 generations ago, and was followed by a dramatic decrease in population size around ≈25-30 generations ago, probably representing the early Jewish settlement in Poland. This founder event was followed by an extremely rapid expansion and mixing with (likely) Eastern Europeans."

Unless he means 20% Non-Southern European (which I think is what he probably should mean...) maybe. But 20% Eastern European I can already tell is unlikely. Eastern Ashkenazi Jews are not at all 20% shifted over to Slavs from Western Ashkenazi Jews. I know this because they are hardly even 15% shifted to non-Southern Europeans from Italian Jews.

Riverman
01-29-2022, 03:09 PM
Unless he means 20% Non-Southern European (which I think is what he probably should mean...) maybe. But 20% Eastern European I can already tell is unlikely. Eastern Ashkenazi Jews are not at all 20% shifted over to Slavs from Western Ashkenazi Jews. I know this because they are hardly even 15% shifted to non-Southern Europeans from Italian Jews.

I think 5-10 percent Western-Central European and 10-15 Central-Eastern is the range. But the total admixture from North of the Alps wont exceed 20 %. Its rather about the ratio of Western vs Eastern which is more doubtful.

Levantine_Viking
01-29-2022, 03:30 PM
judging by the model you can use both a mena and italian source
and yes you prob could use other sources for ashkenazim but if there was a roman input after the jewish diaspora ventured out of judaea into the other provinces modern south italians (or aegeans) will fully cover that bill



~50% Italic_IA ~50% ancient Near East (alalakh/israel) all on one cline
though the more near east pulled cluster will prob have a higher level of near east but both clusters are closely related nonetheless (based on the papers)

Yes but those modern italians or imperial romans are half middle Eastern themselves on average (in various parts of the near east). So there's a lot of overlap and g25 is not yet capable to separate or express true ancestry

Example Italian lombardy eats up both my father's (he is non Jewish, nw European) ancestry and my mom's southern euro ancestry.

Gentica277282
01-29-2022, 03:33 PM
Yes but those modern italians or imperial romans are half middle Eastern themselves on average (in various parts of the near east). So there's a lot of overlap and g25 is not yet capable to separate or express true ancestry

Example Italian lombardy eats up both my father's (he is non Jewish, nw European) ancestry and my mom's southern euro ancestry.

It’s not so much g25 but the samples at our disposal. The more samples they have in the data sheet the more accurate it is unless you don’t agree with the way g25 calculates ancestry then that’s another discussion

Levantine_Viking
01-29-2022, 03:49 PM
It’s not so much g25 but the samples at our disposal. The more samples they have in the data sheet the more accurate it is unless you don’t agree with the way g25 calculates ancestry then that’s another discussion

When modeling the "mena" components of Jewish, particularly ashkenazim, imperial romans are a terrible population to use given the fact they're half middle Eastern / west asian themselves. South italians are even worst to use because they are themselves similar to ashkenazim. It's better to use:
HRV_IA / iberia empuries 2 for Greek sources as hrv IA is a balkan_illyiran source and empuries 2 is a Greek source that is more Anatolian shifted rather than samaritan shifted.

Ajess
01-30-2022, 02:57 PM
Can you share the cords for dzudzuana and Ana

mokordo
01-30-2022, 11:29 PM
Can you share the cords for dzudzuana and Ana

Do these coordinates actually exist? Probably just as proxies.

Bar
01-31-2022, 06:37 PM
From what I've seen they are typically 60 percent Wana and 40 percent Euro. This is what I think. Is this correct?

Why are you using cultural-political groupings like ''WANA'' on a genetics forum, there is no genetic continuity between the maghreb and western asia, in fact there are plenty of South European (Cypriots, Sicilians, Maltese, etc) populations that are closer to Western Asians than Maghrebis are.

Gentica277282
01-31-2022, 07:04 PM
Why are you using cultural-political groupings like ''WANA'' on a genetics forum, there is no genetic continuity between the maghreb and western asia, in fact there are plenty of South European (Cypriots, Sicilians, Maltese, etc) populations that are closer to Western Asians than Maghrebis are.

Can you further explain what you are talking about, you seem very knowledgeable I would like to learn more

Gentica277282
01-31-2022, 07:05 PM
Do these coordinates actually exist? Probably just as proxies.

They’re simulated based on the papers that were released, they seem quiet accurate when using them on ibm and match the papers results

mokordo
01-31-2022, 08:52 PM
They’re simulated based on the papers that were released, they seem quiet accurate when using them on ibm and match the papers results

Can we see them?

I´ve made several proxies for ANE, but I Don´t know how to simulate Dzudzuanas.

Dewsloth
01-31-2022, 10:12 PM
He is a simple EBA-IBA calculator. My mom and her brother are full ashkenazim.

Baltic:Baltic_EST_BA,0.1321485,0.1213556,0.0992205 ,0.111662,0.051671,0.040746,0.0158398,0.0204684,-0.0029042,-0.050607,0.0009094,-0.0182389,0.0359462,0.0400344,-0.0180239,0.0018297,0.0103654,-0.000684,-0.0013952,0.0046272,-0.0024957,-0.0062692,0.0106487,-0.017388,0.002359
Mediterranean:ITA_Sicily_EBA,0.1261809,0.1608887,0 .0286611,-0.0403289,0.05157,-0.021395,-0.0017121,-9.87e-05,0.0323441,0.061908,9.29e-05,0.010041,-0.0204727,-0.0057407,-0.0149486,-0.0053794,0.0081584,-0.0026244,0.0012749,-0.0045557,-0.0057397,0.0005476,-0.0080463,-0.0087791,0.0016936
Aegeon:GRC_Manika_Helladic_EBA,0.1161,0.176702,-0.000377,-0.091086,0.029236,-0.033188,-0.00423,-0.007846,0.027406,0.065241,0.002436,0.01169,-0.019921,0.004954,-0.030401,-0.019888,0.010691,0.003294,0.006662,-0.020635,-0.010482,0.002597,0.000863,0.007591,-0.003592
Proto_Canaan:Levant_Yehud_IBA,0.087644,0.160454,-0.054682,-0.102391,-0.006155,-0.041555,-0.004935,-0.002769,0.026588,0.013668,0.019487,-0.008243,0.016204,0.030139,-0.007329,-0.007823,-0.026077,0.003421,0.006662,0.005753,-0.00861,0.013973,-0.006039,0.003374,-0.002515
Proto_Canaan:Canaan:Levant_Megiddo_IBA,0.078538,0. 152329,-0.058077,-0.112405,0.001846,-0.044344,-0.01034,-0.009,0.030883,0.00164,0.012829,-0.013038,0.026016,-0.001651,-0.008686,0.013259,-0.005085,0.008868,-0.000126,0.001751,-0.000624,0.006059,-0.008134,0.000241,-0.004431
North_Europe:DEU_Tollense_BA,0.1250158,0.1416662,0 .0726272,0.052326,0.0515992,0.0112486,0.0058362,0. 0058652,0.0164299,0.0074565,-0.005183,-0.0020358,-0.0029857,-0.0002523,0.001425,-0.0011711,0.0019774,0.0017208,0.0029226,0.0064408, 0.0023292,1.04e-05,-0.0061419,-0.0125017,0.0026943
North_Africa:MAR_LN,0.021626,0.148267,0.003394,-0.095285,0.047393,-0.054384,-0.027731,0.008769,0.083855,0.054124,0.020136,0.001 798,0.002973,-0.028901,0.004343,0.009944,0.032726,-0.014062,-0.033938,-5e-04,-0.018343,-0.02201,0.011709,-0.009881,-0.004191
Anatolian:TUR_Arslantepe_EBA,0.1032945,0.1546142,-0.0594908,-0.089552,-0.0198495,-0.0290045,0.0017625,-0.010615,-0.0177422,0.012483,0.0054808,0.0017985,-0.005649,0.003888,-0.0106202,-0.0020882,0.0073667,0.0017735,0.0029852,0.0010945,-0.001435,0.004235,-0.0016332,-0.0043682,-0.000509
Anatolian:Asia_Minor:TUR_Ovaoren_EBA,0.0990263,0.1 51991,-0.0452547,-0.0812883,-0.0043087,-0.022776,-0.0019583,-0.0081533,-0.0088627,0.027457,0.0073077,0.0044463,-0.0130327,-0.0065143,-0.0147933,-0.000442,0.0126037,0.003801,0.0043577,-0.0017507,0.0003327,0.0055233,-0.0028757,0.0011247,-0.0024747
Anatolian:Asia_Minor:TUR_Isparta_EBA,0.114582,0.15 90993,-0.040226,-0.0802117,-0.004411,-0.024728,7.83e-05,-0.003846,-0.0115897,0.0329847,0.0068207,0.003497,-0.012686,-0.003257,-0.0225297,0.0032263,0.0214267,-0.0024493,0.0070393,-0.0007087,-0.0044507,-0.003215,0.000575,-0.003213,-0.0022353
Eblaite:SYR_Ebla_EMBA,0.0919897,0.1485443,-0.0651733,-0.095432,-0.0144361,-0.0369149,-0.0034183,-0.0085171,0.0012643,0.0095922,0.0093005,-0.0033243,0.0091225,-3.75e-05,-0.0105985,0.0009522,-0.0016595,0.000691,0.0035425,-0.0003752,0.0012025,0.0049575,-0.0019272,-0.0025085,-0.0002941
Elamite:IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA1,0.0736055,0.0626243 ,-0.1309865,0.0219102,-0.1084818,0.0284002,0.0085778,-0.0026922,-0.0638455,-0.0369028,-0.0050612,0.0005995,-0.0060207,-0.0083718,0.021127,0.0313133,-0.0025208,0.002196,0.0030587,-0.0245952,0.007965,-0.016961,-0.0021363,-0.0190187,0.0136515
Caucasus:GEO_CHG,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036
E_Asia:CHN_Upper_Yellow_River_LN,0.0170734,-0.4421616,0.022778,-0.0515508,0.0196344,-0.0039602,0.0089774,0.0057692,-0.0035588,0.0106792,-0.0916846,-0.0111202,0.0117144,-0.0013762,-0.0077904,-0.0013258,-0.0005476,-0.0033952,-0.0051536,0.0010756,0.0009234,0.0163468,0.0057188, 0.0008918,0.025794
Sidonite:Levant_Sidon_MBA,0.0812696,0.1468454,-0.0613196,-0.0979336,-0.0105248,-0.0389334,-0.0047942,-0.0065998,0.0114534,0.0101686,0.0104904,-0.0097712,0.0215854,0.005505,-0.0075734,0.0065234,-0.0001562,-0.0011906,0.0015086,0.004252,0.0042674,0.007543,-0.0012572,0.0015906,-0.0005028

I tried your model with my family:

Target: Dewsloth_Uncle_scaled [Mom's brother]
Distance: 1.5499% / 0.01549898
33.4 Proto_Canaan
19.6 Sidonite
16.8 Anatolian
12.2 Aegeon
11.2 Elamite
4.8 North_EuropeEU_Tollense_BA
1.8 Caucasus
0.2 E_Asia


Target: DewslothMom_scaled
Distance: 1.2484% / 0.01248414
44.6 Anatolian
25.2 Proto_Canaan
7.4 Elamite
6.2 Sidonite
5.2 North_EuropeEU_Tollense_BA
4.4 Aegeon
4.2 North_Africa
1.8 Caucasus
1.0 E_Asia


Target: DewslothDad_scaled [~10% Ashkenazi]
Distance: 2.7149% / 0.02714880
71.2 North_EuropeEU_Tollense_BA
15.0 Mediterranean
6.4 Anatolian
3.8 Elamite
3.2 Caucasus
0.4 E_Asia


Target: Dewsloth_scaled
Distance: 2.1482% / 0.02148174
40.6 North_EuropeEU_Tollense_BA
33.4 Anatolian
12.6 Proto_Canaan
6.4 Elamite
6.2 Sidonite
0.4 Aegeon
0.4 E_Asia

Levantine_Viking
02-02-2022, 09:40 PM
Why are you using cultural-political groupings like ''WANA'' on a genetics forum, there is no genetic continuity between the maghreb and western asia, in fact there are plenty of South European (Cypriots, Sicilians, Maltese, etc) populations that are closer to Western Asians than Maghrebis are.

It's a term to use for people's non European side common in semitic populations like Jews. North Africans seem to share quite a bit of natufian dna so I assume there's a neolithic connection as well

Gentica277282
02-02-2022, 10:07 PM
It's a term to use for people's non European side common in semitic populations like Jews. North Africans seem to share quite a bit of natufian dna so I assume there's a neolithic connection as well

I think his just a bit confused

Flub
02-20-2022, 08:37 PM
Any new Y-dna charts for Jewish diasporas?

Riverman
02-20-2022, 08:59 PM
Any new Y-dna charts for Jewish diasporas?

I know this:
https://jewishdna.net/sizeofthe40branchespie.jpeg

https://jewishdna.net/distributionincountries.jpeg

https://jewishdna.net/Data.html

Flub
05-29-2022, 02:45 PM
Is this source(s) reliable?

https://jewishdna.net/tabcap1.html

https://jewishdna.net/AB.html

Flub
05-29-2022, 04:32 PM
I saw the second link was not quite done yet. But, wondered if it was still good of use.

Gentica277282
05-29-2022, 05:01 PM
Is this source(s) reliable?

https://jewishdna.net/tabcap1.html

https://jewishdna.net/AB.html

Not really it’s very outdated

Flub
05-29-2022, 05:17 PM
Not really it’s very outdated

How do you know that?

Gentica277282
05-29-2022, 06:06 PM
How do you know that?

I’ve used that site I believe when I was first learning about my haplogroup. Updates happen and the formation of trees can change including the origin of said tree

leorcooper19
05-29-2022, 07:43 PM
Jewishdna.net is one of the best public resources we have online for Ashkenazi Y-DNA. However, many of the descriptions are indeed outdated. If you have any specific questions about Ashkenazi Y-DNA, please ask them here and we will give our best answer.

To the title of the thread, though, I can say that most Ashkenazi paternal lines seem to derive from the Near East. In the past, when I estimated it, the number was something like 70-75% Near Eastern, with the rest mostly being European. This is just my estimate based on my guess for each lineage, and I'm sure other estimates would range from 60 to 80%.