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View Full Version : Mizrahi Jewish matches, and triangulation with Ashkenazi



BalkanKiwi
05-23-2021, 10:56 AM
This was an unexpected find on MH. For my Ashkenazi grandfather, I came across three triangulated Mizrahi matches on chromosome 15 (segment below from Eurogenes K13). All three matches are 11.2-11.5cM, with the segment size being 9.8 cM. Matches 1 and 3 are predicted 3rd-5th cousins.

https://i.imgur.com/ZcaCsVd.jpg

Summary of their results:

Match 1

52% Mizrahi Jewish - Iranian/Iraqi
17% Middle Eastern
9% North African
15% Greek and South Italian
6% Ashkenazi

Genetic Groups
Netherlands, Germany and England
Syria (Aleppo) and Egypt
Iraq #2
Iraq (Baghdad) #2
Turkey, Greece, Algeria, Morocco and France

Match 2
47% Mizrahi Jewish - Iranian/Iraqi
19% West Asian
15% Italian
9% Ashkenazi
8% North African

Genetic Groups
Netherlands, Germany and England
Eastern Europe, mostly Lithuania, Poland and Belarus
Syria (Aleppo) and Egypt

Match 3
62% Mizrahi Jewish - Iranian/Iraqi
16% Greek and South Italian
11% North African
7% Middle Eastern
2% Ashkenazi

Genetic Groups
1. Turkey, Greece, Algeria, Morocco and France
2. Syria (Aleppo) and Egypt
3. Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan

I'm not familiar on the specifics of Mizrahi and their autosomal relationship with Ashkenazi, however in this case, what ancestor is likely being shared here? Is this highlighting a common shared ancestor from southern Italy?

StillWater
05-23-2021, 02:03 PM
None of these look purely Mizrachi. If the recent ancestor of theirs you're matching is Syrian Jewish, then the ultimate shared ancestor can even be Ashkenazi.

BalkanKiwi
05-23-2021, 07:43 PM
None of these look purely Mizrachi. If the recent ancestor of theirs you're matching is Syrian Jewish, then the ultimate shared ancestor can even be Ashkenazi.

Ah, interesting. I've previously worked out there was likely a Sephardic ancestor on this line. Perhaps that could be
the connection? Even if these matches don't score any.

I wasn't aware that Ashkenazi went from Europe to Syria. That's interesting. I thought it unlikely that the common ancestor is Levantine (in a more recent sense).

EDIT: As the Sephardic matches are on a different chromosome, perhaps it's not the shared ancestor here.

passenger
05-23-2021, 09:12 PM
I believe today's Syrian Jews are mostly a mixture of Eastern Sephardim and Musta'arabim (the local "pre-Sephardic" Arabic-speaking Jewish communities). The Syrian matches I have on MH don't get such a high Mizrahi score, and some none at all. They look more like Eastern Sephardim from Turkey or Greece, but with a higher Middle Eastern and West Asian percentage. Of course the samples I'm looking at might be biased since they're only my family's matches. On the other hand, like StillWater said, the Mizrahi percentage of your examples looks low for an Iraqi or Iranian Jewish individual. Their parents could be from different Jewish backgrounds. Or they could be predominantly Iraqi Jews with significant Syrian Jewish ancestry. Are they Israeli?

BalkanKiwi
05-23-2021, 09:41 PM
I believe today's Syrian Jews are mostly a mixture of Eastern Sephardim and Musta'arabim (the local "pre-Sephardic" Arabic-speaking Jewish communities). The Syrian matches I have on MH don't get such a high Mizrahi score, and some none at all. They look more like Eastern Sephardim from Turkey or Greece, but with a higher Middle Eastern and West Asian percentage. Of course the samples I'm looking at might be biased since they're only my family's matches. On the other hand, like StillWater said, the Mizrahi percentage of your examples looks low for an Iraqi or Iranian Jewish individual. Their parents could be from different Jewish backgrounds. Or they could be predominantly Iraqi Jews with significant Syrian Jewish ancestry. Are they Israeli?

One is from France, one is from Israel (along with his son), and the other is from the UK (her paternal line is Iraqi, but unfortunately no maternal ancestors listed). The French match (Match 2) has ancestors from Egypt and Israel.

The Israeli is Match 3, and the UK match is Match 1, who are predicted 3rd-5th cousins. The Israeli match lists their surname as being from Syria and Israel, but unfortunately no tree.

I've found another triangulated match (predicted 3rd-5th cousins with the Israeli), who is from the US and has 32% Mizrahi, 44% Eastern Euro and 8% Ashkenazi.

The Israeli match seems to be the common match between them all, even though he has the least amount of Ashkenazi out of the three of them.

BalkanKiwi
05-24-2021, 10:34 AM
Since posting the above, I've found something which may give some answers. I've come across at least 4 Mexicans who all triangulate here as well (there's a few more Mexicans who I also suspect triangulate, but don't have time right now to check). They are all mostly Iberian and Mesoamerican and Andean, with minor amounts for some of Middle Eastern, North African, Italian etc. None score any type of Jewish (or any European at all). All of their Genetic Groups are similar Mexican regions.

Is the most logical way for a bunch of majority Mizrahi/Middle Eastern Jews to match Mexicans through a Spanish/Sephardic ancestor? If these Mexicans don't have any type of Jewish, I'd imagine it could be a similar situation to this thread (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?21979-Query-regarding-Basque-and-British-Ashkenazi-grandfather/page12), and the diagram below. We all share a common Spanish ancestor, with some descendants mixing with Jews (Middle Eastern matches), and some who didn't (Mexican matches).

https://i.imgur.com/LXnZEDQ.png

Erikl86
05-24-2021, 11:27 AM
I believe today's Syrian Jews are mostly a mixture of Eastern Sephardim and Musta'arabim (the local "pre-Sephardic" Arabic-speaking Jewish communities). The Syrian matches I have on MH don't get such a high Mizrahi score, and some none at all. They look more like Eastern Sephardim from Turkey or Greece, but with a higher Middle Eastern and West Asian percentage. Of course the samples I'm looking at might be biased since they're only my family's matches. On the other hand, like StillWater said, the Mizrahi percentage of your examples looks low for an Iraqi or Iranian Jewish individual. Their parents could be from different Jewish backgrounds. Or they could be predominantly Iraqi Jews with significant Syrian Jewish ancestry. Are they Israeli?

I would just add that K1a1b1a1 is wasn't rare at all among Syrian Jews, at least from what I've seen back when I was getting matches for my Syrian Jewish brother-in-law relatives on GEDmatch.

Also, the name "Ashkenazy" as a last name is also quite common among Syrian Jews.

altvred
05-24-2021, 11:45 AM
I would just add that K1a1b1a1 is wasn't rare at all among Syrian Jews, at least from what I've seen back when I was getting matches for my Syrian Jewish brother-in-law relatives on GEDmatch.

This question may be a bit tangential to the thread but aren't Syrian Jews essentially genetically indistinguishable from Sephardim like Turkish Jews nowadays? I recall that the initial Mizrahi component didn't play a significant role there.


Also, the name "Ashkenazy" as a last name is also quite common among Syrian Jews.
Always found it and 'Mizrahi' a bit confusing, is the meaning of surnames like that meant to denote patrilineal descent from a particular subgroup of Jews or is it more complicated than that?

Seabass
05-24-2021, 11:49 AM
This question may be a bit tangential to the thread but aren't Syrian Jews essentially genetically indistinguishable from Sephardim like Turkish Jews nowadays? I recall that the initial Mizrahi component didn't play a significant role there.


Always found it and 'Mizrahi' a bit confusing, is the meaning of surnames like that meant to denote patrilineal descent from a particular subgroup of Jews or is it more complicated than that?

It might be possible there are a minority of Syrian Jews identical Turkish/Greek Sephardim, but I wouldn't expect many. Eastern Sephardic Jews lack all that many signs of Must'arabi and Mizrahi ancestry which many Syrian Jews have.

Ashkenazi/Esquinazi/Eskenazi and it's many other unusual variants is a pretty popular surname among Eastern Sephardic communities. It may point to an Ashkenazi ancestor, but it may also point to a non-Ashkenazi ancestor who went to Europe and came back. Mizrahi too is a popular surname suggesting an ancestor from the East. I think Syrian Jews of a Sephardic identity will probably have more genetic variation than Sephardim from Greece and Turkey and maybe present a bit like Moroccan Sephardic Jews, where some are more obviously say Megorachim or Tovashim. In the case of Syrian Jews, Eastern Sephardic and Musta'arabi sources are pretty predominant, but there has to definitely be a Mizrahi streak given the Iraq locations many get in 23andme. For sure, there is likely some a good few distant Ashkenazi lineages among some of them too.

passenger
05-24-2021, 08:02 PM
Is the most logical way for a bunch of majority Mizrahi/Middle Eastern Jews to match Mexicans through a Spanish/Sephardic ancestor?

Probably. Do they also triangulate with Ashkenazi matches? I think there are plenty of Latin Americans with Jewish matches who have probable converso ancestry, but who don't necessarily get any specifically Jewish percentage on commercial tests.

altvred
05-24-2021, 08:45 PM
It might be possible there are a minority of Syrian Jews identical Turkish/Greek Sephardim, but I wouldn't expect many. Eastern Sephardic Jews lack all that many signs of Must'arabi and Mizrahi ancestry which many Syrian Jews have.

Ashkenazi/Esquinazi/Eskenazi and it's many other unusual variants is a pretty popular surname among Eastern Sephardic communities. It may point to an Ashkenazi ancestor, but it may also point to a non-Ashkenazi ancestor who went to Europe and came back. Mizrahi too is a popular surname suggesting an ancestor from the East. I think Syrian Jews of a Sephardic identity will probably have more genetic variation than Sephardim from Greece and Turkey and maybe present a bit like Moroccan Sephardic Jews, where some are more obviously say Megorachim or Tovashim. In the case of Syrian Jews, Eastern Sephardic and Musta'arabi sources are pretty predominant, but there has to definitely be a Mizrahi streak given the Iraq locations many get in 23andme. For sure, there is likely some a good few distant Ashkenazi lineages among some of them too.

Interesting stuff, appreciate the answer. It would appear that certain segments within the Jewish diaspora were rather mobile in the earlier Islamic realms like the Almoravids and later in the Ottoman Empire. I mean Maimonides was born in Cordoba, died in Egypt, and was buried in Tiberias.

Sorta hard to imagine people making these journeys back then, personally, I have this mental image of my ancestors freezing in some forsaken shtetl in Eastern Europe but it's obvious that Jewish communities closer to the Mediterranean were a lot more interconnected.

BalkanKiwi
05-24-2021, 11:32 PM
Probably. Do they also triangulate with Ashkenazi matches? I think there are plenty of Latin Americans with Jewish matches who have probable converso ancestry, but who don't necessarily get any specifically Jewish percentage on commercial tests.

Attempting to answer this question has led me down a rabbit hole. I've found 7 Mexicans that cluster here, with only 1 having any Jewish (4% Ashkenazi). I tried various Ashkenazi in the triangulation, with not much luck. I managed to found 3 Ashkenazi (listed below), who triangulate.

Match 1 – 48% Ashkenazi, 23% Greek and South Italian, 18% West Asian, 1.5% Middle Eastern.
Match 2 – 38% Ashkenazi, 2.7% Iberian.
Match 3 – 46% Ashkenazi, 16% Italian, 11% Iberian, 1.6% Middle Eastern.

Here are the ancestries of the Mexican matches (all of them are majority Mesoamerican and Andean, so I've only included relevant ancestries):

Match 1– 28% Iberian, 2.4% Middle Eastern
Match 2 – 16% Iberian, 3% Italian
Match 3– 33% Iberian
Match 4 – 5.1% North African, 1.4% Italian
Match 5 – 33% Iberian, 8% Italian 3.7% North African
Match 6 – 4.3% Ashkenazi
Match 7 – 16.7% Italian

In looking at this, I've found a separate cluster in the same location. This cluster includes some of the above Mexicans, some new Mexicans and an Argentinian. The difference being the French Mizrahi match is the only Mizrahi that matches, and not the others (even if I drop the threshold to 2cM). The Argentinean has 1% Ashkenazi, and only 1 out of 4 of the new Mexicans in this cluster scores Jewish (1% also). The majority ancestry for all of them is Mesoamerican and Andean and Iberian.

Long story short, Sephardic seems probable.