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harrimir
05-27-2021, 04:10 PM
Hello! Please forgive my fuzziness on the subject as I try to ask my question. Over the past few years I've seen multiple models of where R1b (specifically, the branch that is ancestral to modern west European r1b) was before it became so significant in the Yamnaya/Western Steppe Herder/Indo-European expansion. I am aware that, although there is some debate of the route taken between the steppe and western europe ( although if there is a more clear modern understanding I would love to learn about it), but there is, as far as I know, a much less clear picture of how R1b got to the steppe in the first place. I know R1a more or less stayed in the ancient north eurasian steppe and forests, but I've read conflicting things about R1b. Some sources seem to say that this lineage was also always present in this steppe region since r* and r1* made it their hunting grounds, and other sources claim that r1b broke off, went around the caspian sea into the zagros region, then came back up through the Caucasus after domesticating some animals, and thus became the foundation of Yamnaya.(Although r1b isn't present in caucasian hunter gatherers from what I know, but it IS present in EHG?)

Honestly, I don't know what to think. Is some of this outdated? Can anyone lay out a more clear timeline connected with the different archaeological and genetic groups?

TigerMW
05-27-2021, 04:47 PM
Hello! Please forgive my fuzziness on the subject as I try to ask my question. Over the past few years I've seen multiple models of where R1b (specifically, the branch that is ancestral to modern west European r1b) was before it became so significant in the Yamnaya/Western Steppe Herder/Indo-European expansion. I am aware that, although there is some debate of the route taken between the steppe and western europe ( although if there is a more clear modern understanding I would love to learn about it), but there is, as far as I know, a much less clear picture of how R1b got to the steppe in the first place. I know R1a more or less stayed in the ancient north eurasian steppe and forests, but I've read conflicting things about R1b. Some sources seem to say that this lineage was also always present in this steppe region since r* and r1* made it their hunting grounds, and other sources claim that r1b broke off, went around the caspian sea into the zagros region, then came back up through the Caucasus after domesticating some animals, and thus became the foundation of Yamnaya.(Although r1b isn't present in caucasian hunter gatherers from what I know, but it IS present in EHG?)

Honestly, I don't know what to think. Is some of this outdated? Can anyone lay out a more clear timeline connected with the different archaeological and genetic groups?

If you mean R1b generally then it was quite spread including to Italy, long before the Yamnaya. If you are most interested in R1b-M269 then we are focusing in a bit.
This graphic of the R1b Early Branching and Backbone to R1b-L151 gives you an idea of how far separated R1b-M269 from other branches.
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b/about/results#RTIMELINE

CopperAxe
05-27-2021, 04:54 PM
Those "other sources" are malarkey.

R1a currently seems like it remained exclusively European until the IE expansions , and while R1b did have an earlier presence eastwards as seen with WSHG derived populations, they all had EHG ancestry and the centre of gravity regarding R1b was once again Europe.

I don't like speculating on haplogroups that far back but it wouldn't surprise me if the split from R to R1a and R1b occured within the geographic boundaries of Europe.

Any source that in 2021 claims that M269 was so detached from all the other R1b clades that it went deep in west Asia only to return with the domestication of animals either through Anatolia or the Caucasus is fan-fiction.

TigerMW
05-27-2021, 08:14 PM
...
Any source that in 2021 claims that M269 was so detached from all the other R1b clades that it went deep in west Asia only to return with the domestication of animals either through Anatolia or the Caucasus is fan-fiction.
R1b-M269’s Most Recent Common Ancestor (MRCA) is very detached from M269- parts of R1b relationship-wise. There are 96 SNPs in the R1b-M269 phylogenetic equilvant block. That’s like 8000 years.
This doesn’t mean they couldn’t live in the same Yamnaya community but sure doesn’t mean they had to.

(Edit: reread original post)

There are people who think some R1b-M269 basal form or ancestor was on the Iranian Plateau and was instrumental in the first copper working. It's possible but it seems more likely that the R1b-M269 lineage that spawned L23 and was part of the Yamnaya just moved straight west from Central Siberia. It's wide open and supposedly they were herding horses and possibly riding them.

R1b-M269's figurative, though distant, brother is R1b-M73. He's found in ancient DNA from Kazhakstan to Latvia.

harrimir
05-27-2021, 11:03 PM
So the modern consensus is that the eupedia (and other similar) narrative is totally wrong? Or is it more.. debated?

So what I'm hearing is that the r1b-m269 people were just always in the steppe/ancient north eurasian group?

Honestly if that is the case then I probably have no idea about the modern understanding of what cultures (archaeological or genetic) were uhhh.. between yamnaya r1b and the western europeans

TigerMW
05-28-2021, 12:58 AM
So the modern consensus is that the eupedia (and other similar) narrative is totally wrong? Or is it more.. debated?

So what I'm hearing is that the r1b-m269 people were just always in the steppe/ancient north eurasian group?

Honestly if that is the case then I probably have no idea about the modern understanding of what cultures (archaeological or genetic) were uhhh.. between yamnaya r1b and the western europeans

There are several science papers out in the last couple of years covering the appropriate cultures that include ancient DNA results.

I won’t comment generally on is Eupedia right or wrong but if you have a specific quote in context I will comment.

razyn
05-28-2021, 02:11 AM
I think the bigger problem with Eupedia is the use of heat maps, that are such strong visuals, they make people think that the darkest colors (areas of present concentration of a haplogroup, as a percentage of the male population -- in a specific area where they have been tested) must indicate the place of origin of that haplogroup. And that is almost never the case. They represent a present state of the genetic success of haplogroups that originated thousands of years ago, have spread, flourished here and died out there; and the concentrations (hot spots, on heat maps) just show where descendants of the haplogroup founder in question have been more successful breeders of sons than somebody else's.

So, don't believe what your eyes seem to be telling you, and you'll be better off reading the verbiage on Eupedia. That does get revised, now and then.

harrimir
05-28-2021, 05:50 AM
I was talking more about their claims on this page https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml


It has been hypothetised that R1b people (perhaps alongside neighbouring J2 tribes) were the first to domesticate cattle in northern Mesopotamia some 10,500 years ago. R1b tribes descended from mammoth hunters, and when mammoths went extinct, they started hunting other large game such as bisons and aurochs. With the increase of the human population in the Fertile Crescent from the beginning of the Neolithic (starting 12,000 years ago), selective hunting and culling of herds started replacing indiscriminate killing of wild animals. The increased involvement of humans in the life of aurochs, wild boars and goats led to their progressive taming. Cattle herders probably maintained a nomadic or semi-nomadic existence, while other people in the Fertile Crescent (presumably represented by haplogroups E1b1b, G and T) settled down to cultivate the land or keep smaller domesticates.

The analysis of bovine DNA has revealed that all the taurine cattle (Bos taurus) alive today descend from a population of only 80 aurochs. The earliest evidence of cattle domestication dates from circa 8,500 BCE in the Pre-Pottery Neolithic cultures in the Taurus Mountains. The two oldest archaeological sites showing signs of cattle domestication are the villages of Çayönü Tepesi in southeastern Turkey and Dja'de el-Mughara in northern Iraq, two sites only 250 km away from each others. This is presumably the area from which R1b lineages started expanding - or in other words the "original homeland" of R1b.
The early R1b cattle herders would have split in at least three groups. One branch (M335) remained in Anatolia, but judging from its extreme rarity today wasn't very successful, perhaps due to the heavy competition with other Neolithic populations in Anatolia, or to the scarcity of pastures in this mountainous environment. A second branch migrated south to the Levant, where it became the V88 branch. Some of them searched for new lands south in Africa, first in Egypt, then colonising most of northern Africa, from the Mediterranean coast to the Sahel. The third branch (P297), crossed the Caucasus into the vast Pontic-Caspian Steppe, which provided ideal grazing grounds for cattle. They split into two factions: R1b1a1 (M73), which went east along the Caspian Sea to Central Asia, and R1b1a2 (M269), which at first remained in the North Caucasus and the Pontic Steppe between the Dnieper and the Volga. It is not yet clear whether M73 actually migrated across the Caucasus and reached Central Asia via Kazakhstan, or if it went south through Iran and Turkmenistan. In any case, M73 would be a pre-Indo-European branch of R1b, just like V88 and M335.

CopperAxe
05-28-2021, 12:49 PM
R1b-M269’s Most Recent Common Ancestor (MRCA) is very detached from M269- parts of R1b relationship-wise. There are 96 SNPs in the R1b-M269 phylogenetic equilvant block. That’s like 8000 years.
This doesn’t mean they couldn’t live in the same Yamnaya community but sure doesn’t mean they had to.

(Edit: reread original post)

There are people who think some R1b-M269 basal form or ancestor was on the Iranian Plateau and was instrumental in the first copper working. It's possible but it seems more likely that the R1b-M269 lineage that spawned L23 and was part of the Yamnaya just moved straight west from Central Siberia. It's wide open and supposedly they were herding horses and possibly riding them.

R1b-M269's figurative, though distant, brother is R1b-M73. He's found in ancient DNA from Kazhakstan to Latvia.


Do we have any indications that M269 was present in the Iranian plateau and that these populations then had a genetic contribution to the forager populations that lead to M269 being quite deeply entrenched into their genepool?

You know like examples of R1b-M269 in the numerous neolithic and chalcolithic samples we have from those regions prior to the ones we see in Europe?

If not, then these thoughts are more akin to desires.

Same with Siberia really. The M73 in Latvia is a few thousand year olders than the one at Botai, which once again has European forager ancestry.

Domestication of the horse only began in the 4th millenium b.c Are you suggesting R1b-M269 carrying WSHG-like people rode into the Pontic-Caspian steppe and became ancestral to the Western Steppe Herders?

Fan-fiction.

CopperAxe
05-28-2021, 12:50 PM
So the modern consensus is that the eupedia (and other similar) narrative is totally wrong? Or is it more.. debated?

So what I'm hearing is that the r1b-m269 people were just always in the steppe/ancient north eurasian group?

Honestly if that is the case then I probably have no idea about the modern understanding of what cultures (archaeological or genetic) were uhhh.. between yamnaya r1b and the western europeans

Eupedia is not a source, it is a junk website full of outdated and quite frankly bizarre statements.

TigerMW
05-28-2021, 01:17 PM
Do we have any indications that M269 was present in the Iranian plateau and that these populations then had a genetic contribution to the forager populations that lead to M269 being quite deeply entrenched into their genepool?
No, and I don’t think that happened. I can’t say it is impossible, though.



You know like examples of R1b-M269 in the numerous neolithic and chalcolithic samples we have from those regions prior to the ones we see in Europe?
M269 was not found in West and Central Europe before the Early Bronze Age.



Domestication of the horse only began in the 4th millenium b.c Are you suggesting R1b-M269 carrying WSHG-like people rode into the Pontic-Caspian steppe and became ancestral to the Western Steppe Herders?

No and I didn’t say they did.


Copperaxe, where is the M269 MRCA from and how did M269 get to West and Central Europe where it is so common today?

R.Rocca
05-28-2021, 01:51 PM
I was talking more about their claims on this page https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml

There is only one single source of truth and that is ancient DNA. Not a single early M269, M73 nor V88 sample has been found south of the steppe. The Eupedia is rubbish based on pre-ancient DNA modern day frequency maps.

CopperAxe
05-28-2021, 02:00 PM
No, and I don’t think that happened. I can’t say it is impossible, though.

Possibilities are meaningless. R1b-M269 can also come from the Americas by that argument. Back-migration and towards Europe with Przewalski's horses or whatever.

Like seriously what is the point of bringing up these possibilities if you are not even going to argue for them?


No and I didn’t say they did.

You suggested a Siberia/Central Asia -> Europe movement with horses. That only occurred in the 4th millenium b.c with those kind of populations. So you did actually suggest that.


It's possible but it seems more likely that the R1b-M269 lineage that spawned L23 and was part of the Yamnaya just moved straight west from Central Siberia. It's wide open and supposedly they were herding horses and possibly riding them.

:suspicious:


M269 was not found in West and Central Europe before the Early Bronze Age.

Its current trail leads to Eastern Europe during the fourth millenium B.C with populations deeply nestled in the European genepool, and its later distributions are directly linked to these populations. If I2181 actually has M269 we can push it back to the fifth millenium b.c.

Maybe we will find some older samples that help clear it up but as of right now these are the oldest and they dont look like they came from recent migrants to Europe.

There are also yet-to-be-published Volosovo samples that supposedly had M269, according to the General. I guess those early agriculturalists brought their y-dna but did not bring their animal domesticates with them...


Copperaxe, where is the M269 MRCA from and how did M269 get to West and Central Europe where it is so common today?

MRCA: Unknown, for sure somewhere in Europe, Eastern Europe to be particular.

Expansion: Indo-European migrations obviously.

altvred
05-28-2021, 02:19 PM
Eupedia is not a source, it is a junk website full of outdated and quite frankly bizarre statements.

Very unfortunate that's still one of the first websites to pop up when googling about Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups, this type of rubbish can be very misleading to the uninitiated searching for additional information after getting their genealogical DNA results. That and another site that shall remain nameless.


Do we have any indications that M269 was present in the Iranian plateau and that these populations then had a genetic contribution to the forager populations that lead to M269 being quite deeply entrenched into their genepool?

You know like examples of R1b-M269 in the numerous neolithic and chalcolithic samples we have from those regions prior to the ones we see in Europe?

If not, then these thoughts are more akin to desires.

Same with Siberia really. The M73 in Latvia is a few thousand year olders than the one at Botai, which once again has European forager ancestry.

Domestication of the horse only began in the 4th millenium b.c Are you suggesting R1b-M269 carrying WSHG-like people rode into the Pontic-Caspian steppe and became ancestral to the Western Steppe Herders?

Fan-fiction.

I haven't heard of the Iranian R1b homeland theory yet, is it based on the same type of logic that leads Underhill to declare that R1a originated in Iran as well?

Regarding M73, I believe that the aDNA so far makes it an open and shut case. By far the oldest sample are Mesolithic Baltic Hunter-Gatherers, there is also a far later sample from Norway but that line looks to have mostly died out in Europe. If I had to guess how that haplogroup ended up nowadays mostly in Turkic and Mongolic peoples it's probably.

European HGs -> WSHG/Botai-related people -> late Andronovo groups around the Altai/Early Scythians -> Turkic-speakers

At least that's the scenario I concuted in my head to explain why, my Tatar great-grandfather from Khvalynsk belongs to one of the branches of M73 :)

razyn
05-28-2021, 02:34 PM
Its current trail leads to Eastern Europe during the fourth millenium B.C with populations deeply nestled in the European genepool,

But most of the said deep nestling was on the maternal side -- which isn't the "trail" of M269 (or any other YDNA haplogroup), and doesn't rule out steppe origin for it (M269). Besides which, the real argument is a little farther out the M269 branch of the tree. For that, the Volosovo samples may indeed be informative, we'll see eventually.

Certainly much of the steppe is "European," if one defines that as west of the Urals. But not western European.

harrimir
05-28-2021, 02:38 PM
Thank you, you've all been very helpful. I've been reading about thisnstuff for years but there are just so many conflicting narratives it's hard to parse through. If it's not too much to ask, then, could you also give me a basic migration route through the archaeological/genetic route between yamnaya m269 and west European proto-celtic p312 groups?

TigerMW
05-28-2021, 02:45 PM
You suggested a Siberia/Central Asia -> Europe movement with horses. That only occurred in the 4th millenium b.c with those kind of populations. So you did actually suggest that.
Please read carefully. I will embolden something you may have missed.


It's possible but it seems more likely that the R1b-M269 lineage that spawned L23 and was part of the Yamnaya just moved straight west from Central Siberia. It's wide open and supposedly they were herding horses and possibly riding them.

The TMRCA for L23 is estimated (YFull) to from 5100BC to 3700BC. That's right about the time people were starting to herd horses. They were definitely hunting them. This progresses in to domestication and finally horse riding.

By the way, I also think that early M269 forms, including prior to the full block formation, could have been roaming anywhere from Eastern Europe to Central Asia. As you know we have a P297+ "brother" of M269, that is R1b-M73, from Baltic hunter-gather to the east side of the Urals in Kazakhstan. We also have distant ancestor, R*, further east in Siberia (M'alta boy).


where is the M269 MRCA from and how did M269 get to West and Central Europe where it is so common today?

MRCA: Unknown, for sure somewhere in Europe, Eastern Europe to be particular.
Expansion: Indo-European migrations obviously.
I don't disagree at all. In general, I agree but I'd restrict that to Eastern Europe, particularly the Ukraine and Russia and leave open the range to the possibility of Central Asia.

TigerMW
05-28-2021, 02:54 PM
Thank you, you've all been very helpful. I've been reading about thisnstuff for years but there are just so many conflicting narratives it's hard to parse through. If it's not too much to ask, then, could you also give me a basic migration route through the archaeological/genetic route between yamnaya m269 and west European proto-celtic p312 groups?

I've written a whole series of summaries on these things based on scientific studies that I quote and cite. They are on the R1b.YDNA fb group. It is for members of the R1b All Subclades project so please join. Included are graphics of possible routes of R1b-M269>L23>L51>P310 into Central and West Europe.
I'm adding the hashtag #prehistory to those articles.

About 95% of all R1b in modern Europe is of the haplogroup R1b-M269>L23>L51>P310>L151. P312 and U106 descend from L151.

MitchellSince1893
05-28-2021, 03:08 PM
... If it's not too much to ask, then, could you also give me a basic migration route through the archaeological/genetic route between yamnaya m269 and west European proto-celtic p312 groups?

A commonly discussed route on this site is from present day Ukraine (some Yamnaya like group north of Black Sea), to Southeast Poland(proto Corded Ware) and from there to Germany towards formation of Single Grave Culture that extended from Denmark/Baltic to the Netherlands and Rhine River Valley; and from Southeast Poland through Moravian Gate, towards Danube River Valley.

Also, some prefer a slightly more Northern route in Forest/Steppe zone via southern Belarus into Poland that is more Riverine/Baltic focused.
It could be both with U106 and some minor L151 subclades taking a more Northerly route and the bulk of P312 taking a more central/southern route. e.g. tons of ancient U152>L2 in Czech Rep (but U152 L2 could also be a back flow from SGC to the West)
Regardless if they started in a Steppe or Forest Steppe environment, there is general consensus among many anthrogenica regulars (not 100%) that they passed north of the Carpathians before entering present day Poland.

TigerMW
05-28-2021, 05:13 PM
Here is my drawing of the situation related to P310 coming into Central and West Europe. The faint yellow arrows are meant to be general potential expansion paths. There are multiple possibilities in my opinion.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/272p4h2jnerktmb/r1b-p310_to_europe.pdf?dl=1

Don't lose track of the fact that P310 is downstream of M269>L23>L51 and P310 is found in ancient DNA in Mongolia about 3100 BC as a part of the Afansievo Culture. L51 is a missing link so far.

TigerMW
05-28-2021, 11:41 PM
Before the Yamnaya and a relative? The Mathieson study gives us the oldest R-M269 that I know of. The M269 call is questioned but Lazaridis confirms it and he should know.

Iosif Lazaridis, "I believe this (I2181) is the oldest R-M269 currently known! Based on its coverage it could be ancestral for the two children nodes of R-M269, but no coverage."
https://twitter.com/cquilesc/status/1352745001025998849

The skeleton is from about 4450 BC in Bulgaria in the Varna Culture. He was considered a Late Chalcolithic outlier with high Steppe ancestry. What was he? A native and long time ancestry Varna farmer, or an interloper, perhaps trader, from the Steppes?

This was at a time that Carpatho-Balkans Metallurgy Province (CBMP) trade expanded eastward into the Steppes' Eneolithic cultures like Sredni Stog and Khvalynsk.... future Yamnaya territory.

Later, the Yamnaya picked up the Circumpontic Metallurgy Provice (CMP) when apparently interacting with the Maykops. The CBMP disintegrated as Yamnaya related peoples and CMP spread westward.

etrusco
05-29-2021, 08:24 AM
Before the Yamnaya and a relative? The Mathieson study gives us the oldest R-M269 that I know of. The M269 call is questioned but Lazaridis confirms it and he should know.

Iosif Lazaridis, "I believe this (I2181) is the oldest R-M269 currently known! Based on its coverage it could be ancestral for the two children nodes of R-M269, but no coverage."
https://twitter.com/cquilesc/status/1352745001025998849

The skeleton is from about 4450 BC in Bulgaria in the Varna Culture. He was considered a Late Chalcolithic outlier with high Steppe ancestry. What was he? A native and long time ancestry Varna farmer, or an interloper, perhaps trader, from the Steppes?

This was at a time that Carpatho-Balkans Metallurgy Province (CBMP) trade expanded eastward into the Steppes' Eneolithic cultures like Sredni Stog and Khvalynsk.... future Yamnaya territory.

Later, the Yamnaya picked up the Circumpontic Metallurgy Provice (CMP) when apparently interacting with the Maykops. The CBMP disintegrated as Yamnaya related peoples and CMP spread westward.

The potential R1bM269 in Bulgaria if confirmed IMHO would be likely a clear representative of the Suvorovo-Novodanilovka chiftains expansion westward connected as you stated with search of metals and prestige goods. Not necessarily a violent push in this case. For what is worth recently on Eurogens someone posted his genome wide ancestry as being
60 EEF
Ukraine HG 27
Steppe progress like 13

But I do not think it is a correct one

CopperAxe
05-29-2021, 09:15 AM
Please read carefully. I will embolden something you may have missed.



The TMRCA for L23 is estimated (YFull) to from 5100BC to 3700BC. That's right about the time people were starting to herd horses. They were definitely hunting them. This progresses in to domestication and finally horse riding.

By the way, I also think that early M269 forms, including prior to the full block formation, could have been roaming anywhere from Eastern Europe to Central Asia. As you know we have a P297+ "brother" of M269, that is R1b-M73, from Baltic hunter-gather to the east side of the Urals in Kazakhstan. We also have distant ancestor, R*, further east in Siberia (M'alta boy).



I don't disagree at all. In general, I agree but I'd restrict that to Eastern Europe, particularly the Ukraine and Russia and leave open the range to the possibility of Central Asia.

Where is the evidence that L23 moved out of Central Siberia? Or any M269 really?

Any presence of M269 in Central Asian is from Europe > Central Asia movements and until the Yamnaya/Afanasievo periods that didnt happen.

So based on what would you extend the range of M269/L23 to Central Asia?

TigerMW
05-29-2021, 01:05 PM
(potential R1bM269 in Bulgaria) ...For what is worth recently on Eurogens someone posted his genome wide ancestry as being
60 EEF
Ukraine HG 27
Steppe progress like 13

But I do not think it is a correct one

What is the correct one?

TigerMW
05-29-2021, 01:28 PM
Where is the evidence that L23 moved out of Central Siberia? Or any M269 really?

Any presence of M269 in Central Asian is from Europe > Central Asia movements and until the Yamnaya/Afanasievo periods that didnt happen.

So based on what would you extend the range of M269/L23 to Central Asia?

I think we are talking about a potential range of origin. Notice the word “potential.” That’s what words like “could” imply. We don’t know the solution.

What evidence do you have to say that variants of early R1b-M269 did not come out of Central Asia/Siberia* ?

The earliest haplogroup R is from Siberia near Lake Baikal. This is where ANE (Ancient North Eurasian) was identified. We know it shows up later in the Yamnaya in R1b-L23 people, including at Samara. We also have L23 showing up about the same time as Samara but over in Afansievo by Lake Baikal. These were mobile people and this is wide open territory. South of the Ural Mountains there is little to inhibit east-west, west-east movement between East Europe and Siberia.

* I do not mean the Central Siberian Plateau specifically but Central Asia in general, which includes Siberia.

ChrisR
05-29-2021, 01:40 PM
There is only one single source of truth and that is ancient DNA. Not a single early M269, M73 nor V88 sample has been found south of the steppe. The Eupedia is rubbish based on pre-ancient DNA modern day frequency maps.
As far as I remember this Eupedia R1b migration map "SE of Caspian trough Caucasus" was not updated in the last 10 years despite all the new ancient DNA results. At least alternative migration paths should be listed/shown.

CopperAxe
05-29-2021, 04:19 PM
Notice the word “potential.” That’s what words like “could” imply. We don’t know the solution.
If it is not based on something actually seen either through genetics or archaeology, "potential' and "would" are meaningless, and there is no need for a solution if there is no such problem in the first place.


We also have L23 showing up about the same time as Samara but over in Afansievo by Lake Baikal

I don't understand why this is mentioned as these populations were clearly recent migrants from Europe. The oldest age estimates of Afanasievo sites are actually older than the Yamnaya sites in Kazakhstan, meaning that it is unlikely that their presence in Siberia was the result of a long-lasting habitation of M269 populations in Central Asia who gradually moved eastwards. Probably more akin to a migration within the span of a generation, which is also somwhat supported by their full similarity with European Yamnaya populations.


What evidence do you have to say that variants of early R1b-M269 did not come out of Central Asia/Siberia* ?

i'd say the sheer absence of evidence should suffice. The earliest carriers of R1b-M269 come from populations that have next to no sign of ancestry from contemporary/slightly earlier populations in Central Asia and Siberia such as Botai or Steppe Maykop type peoples. Then added to that is that we have no shred of evidence of R1b-M269 amongst any of these populations and nothing that suggests that they did, for now. Given the amounts of Qs and Ns we have come across in Iron age Scytho-Siberian samples, you don't think we would have come across basal weird M269 lineages by then?

The only R1bs found with these populations was Pre-PH155 and M73, but one of the two had EHG and the other did not just EHG but also steppe_eneolithic-related ancestry. So that's pretty poor evidence for R1bs in Siberia and Central Asia which are independent from Europe as it is, let alone M269 > L23.

I think those two points alone throw a pretty big wrench in that.

Regarding R* and Mal'ta Buret, keep in mind the distribution of the mammoth steppes around 20k years ago and the signs at the sites that they were mammoth hunters. It is likely that by the time of Mal'ta Buret you had populations of the Ancient North Eurasian cluster across that entire region.

If yfull is anything to go by these samples also postdate the formations of R1a and R1b. So we should probably be looking in a different region, especially because all the samples after MA1 are in Q city. Add to that that R2 isn't really found there either but only in West Asia, and that there is no evidence for early R lineages crossing Beringia, the fact that MA1 has R* is not all too relevant when trying to argue for a presence of M269 in Siberia for those reasons in my opinion.

It is possible and not unlikely that for the same reasons we don't see R2 in Central Asia, we also don't find R1a and R1b lineages detached from European populations in Central Asia/Siberia. These were small hunter-gatherer populations after all and in these highly competitive times many lineages died out. So R1 could have separated in Siberia with separate R1a and R1b clades migrating towards Europe and R2.

But what indications do we have of that this occurred? And even more complicated, what signs do we have for M269 specifically being one of these lineages? There is nothing in the autosomal ancestry of these populations, or even their material traditions that supports such an origin and it is certainly not based on the currently available ancient distribution of R lineages.

R1b lineages first pop in Europe, slightly beyond the western parts of where the mammoth steppes used to be. It is only thousands of years later we see any R1b in Central Asia. R1a is pretty much Europe exclusive until the bronze age. R2 only rears it head in West Asia, with later migrations to Central and South Asia.


These were mobile people and this is wide open territory. South of the Ural Mountains there is little to inhibit east-west, west-east movement between East Europe and Siberia.

Before adoption of wheels, the populations were actually not extremely mobile and their range was limited by the distribution of water bodies. The primary food sources of these foragers was fish, and the early pastoralists lived close to the water or various obvious reasons. The real mobility only comes after 3500 bc which is when you see pastoralists rapidly travel long distances and travel across dry areas such as the kazakh steppes.

The only route you can argue for would be by way of the South Siberia to Europe via the Urals as that region has a whole bunch of connected water bodies. By way of the Elshanka culture for example, but that is pretty much akin to saying M269 came by WSHG related peoples. There isn't really any other archaeogically attested scenario that could support such a movement from the steppes of Central Asia or Siberia towards Europe.

etrusco
05-29-2021, 04:35 PM
What is the correct one?

I think the real Smydovo would have a higher Progress like ancestry and less farmer IMHO
40 EEF
30 Ukraine Hg
30 Progress like

altvred
05-29-2021, 05:39 PM
Before adoption of wheels, the populations were actually not extremely mobile and their range was limited by the distribution of water bodies. The primary food sources of these foragers was fish, and the early pastoralists lived close to the water or various obvious reasons. The real mobility only comes after 3500 bc which is when you see pastoralists rapidly travel long distances and travel across dry areas such as the kazakh steppes.

The only route you can argue for would be by way of the South Siberia to Europe via the Urals as that region has a whole bunch of connected water bodies. By way of the Elshanka culture for example, but that is pretty much akin to saying M269 came by WSHG related peoples. There isn't really any other archaeogically attested scenario that could support such a movement from the steppes of Central Asia or Siberia towards Europe.

I want to remind people that this is what much of the central Kazakh Steppe looks like:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/17/Astana-steppe-7748.jpg

You're getting the same scenery when going East, all the way to the Altai.

Before the domestication of the horse and the appearance of the wheeled cart, the Steppe was inhospitable to humans first and foremost due to the absence of any significant rivers or lakes across such a massive expanse.

The Pontic-Caspian Steppe further West is greener and more livable. Still, between the major riverways, the terrain was just as uninhabitable - filled with grasslands that were useless to humans until the advent of pastoralism when they suddenly became valuable grazing grounds for livestock.

So between the Mesolithic and the beginning of the Bronze Age, I highly doubt that there were any significant population movements across the Eurasian Steppe.

A cursory glance at the archaeological record combined with the aDNA we have from that period supports the fact that before the Bronze Age, the Steppe wasn't the highway between Asia and Europe we tend to imagine it being.

So taking all that into account, why would we assume that M269 came from Siberia? I mean, even if hypothetically that scenario is possible, all the ancient DNA points towards an origin somewhere in Eastern Europe.

CopperAxe
05-29-2021, 06:02 PM
I want to remind people that this is what much of the central Kazakh Steppe looks like:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/17/Astana-steppe-7748.jpg

You're getting the same scenery when going East, all the way to the Altai.

Before the domestication of the horse and the appearance of the wheeled cart, the Steppe was inhospitable to humans first and foremost due to the absence of any significant rivers or lakes across such a massive expanse.

The Pontic-Caspian Steppe further West is greener and more livable. Still, between the major riverways, the terrain was just as uninhabitable - filled with grasslands that were useless to humans until the advent of pastoralism when they suddenly became valuable grazing grounds for livestock.

So between the Mesolithic and the beginning of the Bronze Age, I highly doubt that there were any significant population movements across the Eurasian Steppe.

A cursory glance at the archaeological record combined with the aDNA we have from that period supports the fact that before the Bronze Age, the Steppe wasn't the highway between Asia and Europe we tend to imagine it being.

So taking all that into account, why would we assume that M269 came from Siberia? I mean, even if hypothetically that scenario is possible, all the ancient DNA points towards an origin somewhere in Eastern Europe.

To add to that, what is easy to forget is that when you are pastoral you still need a place to store all your materials as well as a source of water/liquids, you cannot carry that around all day roaming on the steppes with your livestock. You are going to need a "base" one way or another.

This is why the introduction of wagon and wheels was so instrumental, as you could store all your belongings in a wagons. Now you can easily move considerable distances across dry teritories as you can take your water, milk, mead and whatnot with you.

It was a game changer to the point that the nearly the entire steppes became close to fully nomadic with practically no agriculture when a more stationary agropastoral lifestyle would've sufficed as was already practised before.

MitchellSince1893
05-29-2021, 10:10 PM
I was curious if camel domestication would solve the issue of traveling long distances over the Steppe between water sources, but from what I can gather camel domestication occurred too late to be a factor in this area i.e. ~2500 BC

TigerMW
05-30-2021, 04:35 PM
Let's take some of these points one by one rather than get lost in a barrage of thoughts that can be taken out of context or become convoluted.

Let's clarify what I said,

"I also think that early M269 forms, including prior to the full block formation, could have been roaming anywhere from Eastern Europe to Central Asia"

"What evidence do you have to say that variants of early R1b-M269 did not come out of Central Asia/Siberia* ?"

Does everyone recognize the R1b-M269 branch has about one hundred variants in the phylogenetic block?

If you switch to variants view you will see 96 variants in the R1b-L754>L389>P297>M269 branch.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R;name=R-M269

The R-M269 branch "formed" (using YF terminology) 96 variants prior to the the R-M269 MRCA.

When I said "including prior to the full block formation", I mean any individual that was of the lineage from the R-M269 formation to the R-M269 MRCA.

That's about 8000 years. That leaves consider time, let me re-emphasize *considerable time*, for individuals in this lineage to be found almost anywhere along the great Eurasian Steppes which cross from Central Asia to East Europe.

The R1b-L754>L389>P297>M73 lineage would have had the first few members of its block formation close to M269's time-wise and therefore likely geographically.

Does anyone disagree with the basic concept of a phlyogenetic block? or this branching above?

You will misunderstand me and take my words out of context if you disagree or don't understand the above concepts.

TigerMW
05-30-2021, 05:39 PM
Let's clarify what I said,

"I also think that early M269 forms, including prior to the full block formation, could have been roaming anywhere from Eastern Europe to Central Asia.”

I see I am wrong! I revise my statement to add “and Southwest Asia”. There was a lot happening from Southwest Asia to Central Asia and back so I wouldn’t rule that out either. It is not huge leap from there to the Pontic Steppes on either side of the Caspian Sea.

ChrisR
05-31-2021, 08:45 AM
About 95% of all R1b in modern Europe is of the haplogroup R1b-M269>L23>L51>P310>L151. P312 and U106 descend from L151.
I'm interested if this is based on a statistical analysis based on equally distributed samples in Europe? Sharing/publishing details seems important, as the percentage is telling a lot about the importance of L151.
In addition it would be interesting to have also the percentage of all Y-Haplogroups in Europe, even if in this case it would probably make more sense to focus on anything West to the easternmost expected first L151 occurrence. What could be considered the most accurate L151 modern distribution map?

TigerMW
05-31-2021, 05:52 PM
I'm interested if this is based on a statistical analysis based on equally distributed samples in Europe? Sharing/publishing details seems important, as the percentage is telling a lot about the importance of L151.
In addition it would be interesting to have also the percentage of all Y-Haplogroups in Europe, even if in this case it would probably make more sense to focus on anything West to the easternmost expected first L151 occurrence. What could be considered the most accurate L151 modern distribution map?
This is based on Myres study. I have posted a spreadsheet summary by super-region of Europe on the R1b FB group

Dieu
05-31-2021, 08:02 PM
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18094-From-K-to-R1b-P312-The-journey

there is also this thread if you want to add an input :)

ChrisR
06-01-2021, 01:12 PM
About 95% of all R1b in modern Europe is of the haplogroup R1b-M269>L23>L51>P310>L151. P312 and U106 descend from L151.This is based on Myres study. I have posted a spreadsheet summary by super-region of Europe on the R1b FB group
I think you mean the "A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe." Myres, N., Rootsi, S., Lin, A. et al 2011 (https://doi.org/10.1038/ejhg.2010.146) study?
The quotes I found:

Typically, >50% of men in Europe are affiliated with haplogroup R.
...
R1b-M412 appears to be the most common Y-chromosome haplogroup in Western Europe (>70%)
...
U152 branch is most frequent (20–44%) in Switzerland, Italy, France and Western Poland, with additional instances exceeding 15% in some regions of England and Germany
...
etc. in low percentages

I did not look if in the Supplementary information there are further stats about M269(>L51,M412>L151,L11) percentages in (West) Europe.

TigerMW
06-01-2021, 04:37 PM
I think you mean the "A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe." Myres, N., Rootsi, S., Lin, A. et al 2011 (https://doi.org/10.1038/ejhg.2010.146) study?
The quotes I found:


I did not look if in the Supplementary information there are further stats about M269(>L51,M412>L151,L11) percentages in (West) Europe.

I found the FB post. L151 is not 95% of R1b in Europe as a whole, but 95% of West and Central European R1b. This is where R1b is most frequent. I’ll correct my post if I had that wrong.

Yes, I didn’t note that in West and Central Europe only but it appears I can’t edit the original post to fix.

R-L151 also has about 95% of the current branches of all R1b regardless of region. This is from the FTDNA haplotree. This is biased towards current consumer testing.

TigerMW
06-01-2021, 09:37 PM
Before adoption of wheels, the populations were actually not extremely mobile and their range was limited by the distribution of water bodies. The primary food sources of these foragers was fish, and the early pastoralists lived close to the water or various obvious reasons. The real mobility only comes after 3500 bc which is when you see pastoralists rapidly travel long distances and travel across dry areas such as the kazakh steppes
I don’t know what you mean by “not extremely mobile” or how much mobility is needed, but I am surprised people doubt haplogroup R’s (and brother Q) ability to migrate.

Nor should we underestimate the ruggedness of haplogroup R people. Sure they are fish and foraged for berries, etc. but they were big game hunters. Woolly mammoth, deer, horses thrive on open grasslands and roam depending on the conditions (to greener pastures).

Two directly upstream ancestor haplogroups for brothers R and Q were P people found north of the Artic Circle in northeast Siberia along the Yana River, about 28000 BC.

Our first found haplogroup R, the M’alta boy R* of 22000 BC, was found near Lake Baikal in Siberia. Both haplogroup R and Q have Ancient North Eurasian autosomal DNA (ANE), in fact the M’alta boy is the model for ANE.

About 12000 BC we have R1b-L754 at Villabruna in Italy. About the same time we have haplogroup Q reaching South America.

Do we really think the ANE people were not rugged, mobile and able to adapt to diverse situations?

Why would we think early or late forms of R1b-L754>P297>M269 were not of the same abilities, if not more so?

Samara to Siberia is only about 500 miles.

ATjunior1
06-01-2021, 11:34 PM
id:HistAndamanIND [IN-AN], id:ERS2589709MYS [MY-08] Malaysia Perak and my Ancestor somehow made it to Siberia so I would say the Ancients were pretty mobile. lol.

davit
06-02-2021, 12:38 AM
id:HistAndamanIND [IN-AN], id:ERS2589709MYS [MY-08] Malaysia Perak and my Ancestor somehow made it to Siberia so I would say the Ancients were pretty mobile. lol.

I'd say its not very likely that P is from Southern Eurasia.

Observer
06-02-2021, 12:56 AM
I'd say its not very likely that P is from Southern Eurasia.

It looks like it is, especially in light of recent papers.

K2b appears to have diversified in Southeast Asia/Yunnan, one heading north and another heading towards Australasia.

1. There is difference in archaic Denisovan admixture between Tianyuan and Papuans. Yet, they carry common K2b-related clads, with Australasian clads S/M nested above P.

2. Current working model suggests Papuan ancestry derives from sister branch of Tianyuan or a branchs above it.

TigerMW
06-02-2021, 05:11 PM
It looks like it is, especially in light of recent papers.

K2b appears to have diversified in Southeast Asia/Yunnan, one heading north and another heading towards Australasia.

Right but the early branching of haplogroup P was unrelated as all of P is downstream of K2b (MPS).

I speculate haplogroup originated and started diversifying from Central Asia, fairly easterly biased to get to the Yana River and to Malaysia.

Brousse
06-03-2021, 12:55 PM
Just out of curiosity what are the haplogroups of the European Tarim Basin mummies?

ChrisR
06-03-2021, 01:50 PM
I found the FB post. L151 is not 95% of R1b in Europe as a whole, but 95% of West and Central European R1b. This is where R1b is most frequent. I’ll correct my post if I had that wrong.
...
R-L151 also has about 95% of the current branches of all R1b regardless of region. This is from the FTDNA haplotree. This is biased towards current consumer testing.
Being a member of the Fb group now I found those two informative
44952
44953
Since I seek to do a writeup also of R1b-L151 current knowledge I would like to give proper references to studies or published calculations etc.
Have you or can you publish the spreadsheet in a longtime archive like for example figshare (incl. DOI URL) (https://figshare.com/)?
Thank you

davit
06-03-2021, 03:24 PM
Right but the early branching of haplogroup P was unrelated as all of P is downstream of K2b (MPS).

I speculate haplogroup originated and started diversifying from Central Asia, fairly easterly biased to get to the Yana River and to Malaysia.

If both K2b and P originated in SE Asia would that not require multiple migrations to North Eurasia? At least one to account for K2b in Tianyuan and another to account for P in Yana?

Dewsloth
06-03-2021, 03:43 PM
Being a member of the Fb group now I found those two informative
44952
44953
Since I seek to do a writeup also of R1b-L151 current knowledge I would like to give proper references to studies or published calculations etc.
Have you or can you publish the spreadsheet in a longtime archive like for example figshare (incl. DOI URL) (https://figshare.com/)?
Thank you


Here is my drawing of the situation related to P310 coming into Central and West Europe. The faint yellow arrows are meant to be general potential expansion paths. There are multiple possibilities in my opinion.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/272p4h2jnerktmb/r1b-p310_to_europe.pdf?dl=1

Don't lose track of the fact that P310 is downstream of M269>L23>L51 and P310 is found in ancient DNA in Mongolia about 3100 BC as a part of the Afansievo Culture. L51 is a missing link so far.

I like these graphics, and hope they get updated to reflect that the earliest Oostwoud P312 sample is no longer unknown but P312>DF19>Z302. Also, the calibrated date estimates overlap with those of the Osterhofen U152:

U152: I4144/RISE563 2572–2512 cal BCE, BB_Germany_BAVm (Bell Beaker Bavaria) Osterhofen-Altenmarkt, Germany
DF19: I5748 Netherlands Bell Beaker, PRJEB23635​. 2579-2211 calBCE Noord-Holland, Oostwoud, De Tuithoorn Netherlands

Observer
06-03-2021, 04:00 PM
Right but the early branching of haplogroup P was unrelated as all of P is downstream of K2b (MPS).

I speculate haplogroup originated and started diversifying from Central Asia, fairly easterly biased to get to the Yana River and to Malaysia.

K2b split into MS (K2b1) and P (K2b2), it doesn't make sense for them to split far off outside Southeast Asia/Yunnan since we have both basal P* in Malaysia and basal S* in Malaysia with same TMARC of Australasian S. It looks like P1 heading to (Yana) was introduced by Tianyuan, leading to formation of Yana/ANS and ANE.


If both K2b and P originated in SE Asia would that not require multiple migrations to North Eurasia? At least one to account for K2b in Tianyuan and another to account for P in Yana?

It does not require multiple but single, Yana's P1* is from Tianyuan source. K2b in Tianyuan will have earlier source in Southeast Asia, this makes sense in light of different Denisovan admixture in Tianyuan and Australasian.

davit
06-03-2021, 04:19 PM
K2b split into MS (K2b1) and P (K2b2), it doesn't make sense for them to split far off outside Southeast Asia/Yunnan since we have both basal P* in Malaysia and basal S* in Malaysia with same TMARC of Australasian S. It looks like P1 heading to (Yana) was introduced by Tianyuan, leading to formation of Yana/ANS and ANE.



It does not require multiple but single, Yana's P1* is from Tianyuan source. K2b in Tianyuan will have earlier source in Southeast Asia, this makes sense in light of different Denisovan admixture in Tianyuan and Australasian.

Do K2 and K2a also come from SE Asia?

Jack Johnson
06-03-2021, 04:51 PM
Modern frequencies and distributions of “basal” subclades, provide us no hard evidence of their true origins, because present day diversity is not a good reflection of Palaeolithic diversity. This has been demonstrated with R1b-V88. So far via ancient DNA, we only have K2 and P samples from Northern Eurasia, specifically Northwestern China, Northeast Asia, Southeastern Europe, and central Siberia/North Asia. Tianyuan is missing the Southeast Asian variant of Denisovan ancestry if I recall correctly, so that already makes a SEA origin unlikely. That and it’s relatively difficult to discern what is really just common ancestry between Neanderthals and Denisovans, and what is real admixture, the two groups have more common ancestry with each other, than with their Homo Sapien cousins. Then there’s the Bacho Kiro IUP samples, and the possible pre-R/P result from the Epipaleotlithic sample BK-1653. Southeast Asia historically has always been a sink, not a faucet. We could be looking at a scenario, with K2b in India 50 kya ago. From there, K2a/b bearing males could have migrated northeast, possibly around 30 kya. Meanwhile, another group of K2b/P males could have branched off, and migrated towards Southeast Asia, where K2b is still carried to this day, by some males in the jungles of Indonesia. An origin in northern South Asia/India for K2/K2b could also explain why P has been detected in ancient Onge.

davit
06-03-2021, 04:56 PM
Modern frequencies and distributions of “basal” subclades, provide us no hard evidence of their true origins, because present day diversity is not a good reflection of Palaeolithic diversity. This has been demonstrated with R1b-V88. So far via ancient DNA, we only have K2 and P samples from Northern Eurasia, specifically Northwestern China, Northeast Asia, Southeastern Europe, and central Siberia/North Asia. Tianyuan is missing the Southeast Asian variant of Denisovan ancestry if I recall correctly, so that already makes a SEA origin unlikely. That and it’s relatively difficult to discern what is really just common ancestry between Neanderthals and Denisovans, and what is real admixture, the two groups have more common ancestry with each other, than with their Homo Sapien cousins. Then there’s the Bacho Kiro IUP samples, and the possible pre-R/P result from the Epipaleotlithic sample BK-1653. Southeast Asia historically has always been a sink, not a faucet. We could be looking at a scenario, with K2b in India 50 kya ago. From there, some K2 bearing males could have migrated northeast, possibly around 30 kya. Meanwhile, a group of K2b also begins to migrate, specifically, towards Southeast Asia, where it is still carried to this day, by some males in the jungles of Indonesia. An northern South Asian/Indian origin of K2b could also explain why P has been detected in ancient Onge.

I wouldn't rule out a Central Asian or Siberian origin either.

TigerMW
06-03-2021, 05:04 PM
Modern frequencies and distributions of “basal” subclades, provide us no hard evidence of their true origins, because present day diversity is not a good reflection of Palaeolithic diversity. This has been demonstrated with R1b-V88.

Agreed, basal branches are generally not even the true terminal haplogroups in modern humans. This just means his relatives/group are sparse or lightly tested.

Jack Johnson
06-03-2021, 05:35 PM
I’m really interested to see where the oldest NO/N first pops up, and the mtDNA accompanying it, this Crown Eurasian population, I wonder what these Bacho Kiro IUP-like people carried maternally? P could have originated in SA, after the K2 migrations to NEA and SEA too, just like the various lineages that left the steppe from the same source.

Observer
06-03-2021, 05:56 PM
Modern frequencies and distributions of “basal” subclades, provide us no hard evidence of their true origins, because present day diversity is not a good reflection of Palaeolithic diversity. This has been demonstrated with R1b-V88. So far via ancient DNA, we only have K2 and P samples from Northern Eurasia, specifically Northwestern China, Northeast Asia, Southeastern Europe, and central Siberia/North Asia. Tianyuan is missing the Southeast Asian variant of Denisovan ancestry if I recall correctly, so that already makes a SEA origin unlikely. That and it’s relatively difficult to discern what is really just common ancestry between Neanderthals and Denisovans, and what is real admixture, the two groups have more common ancestry with each other, than with their Homo Sapien cousins. Then there’s the Bacho Kiro IUP samples, and the possible pre-R/P result from the Epipaleotlithic sample BK-1653. Southeast Asia historically has always been a sink, not a faucet. We could be looking at a scenario, with K2b in India 50 kya ago. From there, K2a/b bearing males could have migrated northeast, possibly around 30 kya. Meanwhile, another group of K2b/P males could have branched off, and migrated towards Southeast Asia, where K2b is still carried to this day, by some males in the jungles of Indonesia. An origin in northern South Asia/India for K2/K2b could also explain why P has been detected in ancient Onge.

Early mainland southeast Asia did not have Denisovan, that's why Andamanses/Onge and Malaysian hunter-gatherers lack Denisovan admixture. This is something known for quiet some time now, first noticed by Reich way back in 2011 too.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5597900/

Difference in Denisovan admixture in Tianyuan and Australasians (despite both of them carrying common clads) shows Denisovan admixture occurred as people moved north, and into martime islands.

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/361/6397/88/F4.large.jpg?width=800&height=600&carousel=1 McColl (2018)

harrimir
06-18-2021, 04:09 PM
I'm glad my simple question could spark such an interesting conversation. Some of it is over my head, but I'm learning a lot.

ATjunior1
08-17-2021, 12:05 AM
https://www.sciencealert.com/one-living-people-today-show-more-traces-of-the-mysterious-denisovans-than-any-other

Philippine Ayta-Magbukon 40% plus Higher Denisovan than Papuans. Aeta males also have Y haplogroup K, P*, P1 and the very rare P2