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thejkhan
05-27-2021, 05:01 PM
Along with a new sample from Turkey, there are now five possibly ethnic Turk/Azeri in the H-Z4469 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/H-Z4469/) yfull tree. The other samples are all South Asian. I was wondering what migration event could be associated with the spread of this clade to Turkey-Azerbaijan.

Afshar
05-27-2021, 05:29 PM
The Turkish sample belongs to a study but I am unable to find the study. Might shed some light on the origin of this sample.

thejkhan
05-27-2021, 05:42 PM
The Turkish sample belongs to a study but I am unable to find the study. Might shed some light on the origin of this sample.

It has to be the study being discussed here: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?23893-The-Genetic-Structure-of-the-Turkish-Population

parasar
05-27-2021, 05:56 PM
Along with a new sample from Turkey, there are now five possibly ethnic Turk/Azeri in the H-Z4469 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/H-Z4469/) yfull tree. The other samples are all South Asian. I was wondering what migration event could be associated with the spread of this clade to Turkey-Azerbaijan.

Perhaps related to the same very old Metspalu k5 Caucasus component in South Asia.
Dienekes I recall had initially entitled it Dagestan.
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/12/solution-to-problem-of-indo-aryan.html

IronHorse
05-27-2021, 06:03 PM
migration path simulation

https://phylogeographer.com/mygrations/?hg=H&clade=H-Y46177

Afshar
05-27-2021, 06:26 PM
It has to be the study being discussed here: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?23893-The-Genetic-Structure-of-the-Turkish-Population

I see,but unfortunately this sample is not included.

Kulin
05-28-2021, 10:58 AM
It was either likely present in the BMAC, and transmitted through Turkmen migrations, or a less likelier route would be via Romani/Domari populations.

thejkhan
05-28-2021, 01:08 PM
It was either likely present in the BMAC, and transmitted through Turkmen migrations,

So far no sample belonging to this clade has been found in either Southern Central Asia (Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikstan) or in the countries that lie between South Asia and Turkey-Azerbaijan (Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq). The TMRCA of the 5 Turkish and Azeri samples is 11,600 ybp, which means the migrating population, whoever they were, must have been diverse/large.

pegasus
05-29-2021, 06:45 PM
So far no sample belonging to this clade has been found in either Southern Central Asia (Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikstan) or in the countries that lie between South Asia and Turkey-Azerbaijan (Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq). The TMRCA of the 5 Turkish and Azeri samples is 11,600 ybp, which means the migrating population, whoever they were, must have been diverse/large.

SC Asia is very under sampled, one of the Azeri shares the same clade with a Bangladeshi individual. This region of Eastern India including what is now Bangladesh was a massive Buddhist center of learning , so individuals from this region must have integrated with local East Iranic populations during the Apogee of Buddhism in SC Asia. Later they were absorbed by Turkic groups prior to entering the Iranian plateau. Thats why you find uniparental markers one would associate with East Iranic populations among Turkic populations much further west.

kyp.snow
05-30-2021, 09:02 AM
Gypsy possibility should be considered

Coldmountains
05-30-2021, 09:06 AM
So far no sample belonging to this clade has been found in either Southern Central Asia (Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikstan) or in the countries that lie between South Asia and Turkey-Azerbaijan (Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq). The TMRCA of the 5 Turkish and Azeri samples is 11,600 ybp, which means the migrating population, whoever they were, must have been diverse/large.

We have less than dozen private Yfull samples from Afghanistan and considering that the region was at least since the Neolithic (IVC migrations, HG substrate???) rich in ASI/IVC it could easily come from Afghanistan/Tajikistan/Sistan in the last 5000 years.

thejkhan
05-30-2021, 09:48 AM
Gypsy possibility should be considered

Roma belong to H-PH124 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/H-PH124/) . All Roma origin members in the FTDNA H y-dna project belong to this clade. The TMRCA (1450 ybp) is in line with Roma exit from South Asia. (There are likely also R1a and R2 clades specific to Roma.) Besides the 'Gypsy possibility' does not explain why, in West Asia, this old branch of H is found in Turks only.

thejkhan
05-31-2021, 03:49 PM
SC Asia is very under sampled, one of the Azeri shares the same clade with a Bangladeshi individual. This region of Eastern India including what is now Bangladesh was a massive Buddhist center of learning , so individuals from this region must have integrated with local East Iranic populations during the Apogee of Buddhism in SC Asia. Later they were absorbed by Turkic groups prior to entering the Iranian plateau. Thats why you find uniparental markers one would associate with East Iranic populations among Turkic populations much further west.

Your early Buddhist era expansion theory sort of makes sense. Outside South Asia, apart from the Turkic samples and the Brahui (Balochistan) sample in YFull, H-Z4469 has also been found in

Rakhine from Myanmar: https://zawzaw347.blogspot.com/2018/10/ko-kyaw-dna_14.html

and among Central Thai: 1/19, https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.01.21.913582v1

Other than Buddhist era expansion, I can't think of anything else that can explain this sort of distribution of a clade outside South Asia.

Probably something to do with this event: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Buddhist_council


Anyways I thought Buddhist monks and missionaries would be celibate. Would it make sense that they left y-dna lineages wherever they went.. unless a significant number gave up monk life because of the hardship and settled down with local women.

Afshar
06-05-2021, 09:50 AM
They added the sample to the spreadsheet.

thejkhan
06-05-2021, 09:53 AM
They added the sample to the spreadsheet.

Yeah saw that. Sample is Turk, as I expected.

Afshar
06-05-2021, 11:18 AM
Yeah saw that. Sample is Turk, as I expected.

Considering his geographical location he might be https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdal_of_Turkey which seem to be connected to south asia.

thejkhan
06-05-2021, 11:35 AM
Considering his geographical location he might be https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdal_of_Turkey which seem to be connected to south asia.

I suppose the Abdal would have elevated South Asian ancestry. This sample though is autosomally fully Turk. Most likely arrived in the region with Turkmen migrations.. same with the other Azeri samples.

kyp.snow
06-05-2021, 11:37 AM
Roma belong to H-PH124 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/H-PH124/) . All Roma origin members in the FTDNA H y-dna project belong to this clade. The TMRCA (1450 ybp) is in line with Roma exit from South Asia. (There are likely also R1a and R2 clades specific to Roma.) Besides the 'Gypsy possibility' does not explain why, in West Asia, this old branch of H is found in Turks only.

I've also read about some Gypsies from Anatolia becoming Qizilbash of the Safavids those could be an explanation of H in Azerbaijanis besides Anatolia.

On top of that I've read about Gypsies in Medieval Tabriz (Azerbaijan region of Iran). And I know there are still modern communities in Azerbaijani speaking regions in Qazvin and Astara.

One groups of them that still remains being:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zargari_people

thejkhan
06-05-2021, 11:44 AM
On top of that I've read about Gypsies in Medieval Tabriz (Azerbaijan region of Iran). And I know there are still modern communities in Azerbaijani speaking regions in Qazvin and Astara.

Yeah there are Gypsies literally everywhere in Western Eurasia (Europe, North Africa, West Asia, Central Asia). But every H clade outside South Asia is not necessarily connected to Gypsy migration. For the Turkey-Azerbaijan region, Turkmen migration from Central Asia makes more sense for this clade because it does not seem to exist among neighboring Armenians, Iraqis, Kurds or Iranians. Then the question is how it ended up in Central Asia in the first place. pegasus' explanation regarding Buddhist era migrations makes sense because this clade is also found in Myanmar and Thailand, regions which also experienced these Buddhist missionary migrations from South Asia.

thejkhan
06-05-2021, 11:56 AM
There's another sample in the spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pHvOMVZPtNDuwVabSXD7OxdFMTYQGvfjq7Z-L6IiII0) with a native South Asian y-dna haplogroup. It's a C1b.
Posting uniparentals and oracles of both (H1 and C1b) samples for anyone interested:

SRS GEDmatch Yfull Mtree Oracle Oracle 2 / Note Oracle 3

SRS8752687 DV7326424 C-Z5895 U3b2a1d Arab_Sunni_Turkey @ 3,44565 | Zaza @ 3,736227 %56 Arab_Sunni_Turkey + %44 Kurd_Kurmanji @ 1,490197

SRS8752858 RF3075409 H-Z4417 U7a4a1d Turk_Anatolia_South @ 3,779392

parasar
06-07-2021, 12:43 AM
Considering his geographical location he might be https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdal_of_Turkey which seem to be connected to south asia.
Per the link:
"The Abdal language consists of borrowing from Indo-Aryan languages, Persian and other Iranian sources, some Kurdish and Romani language with an essentially Turkish grammar. A possible connection with the Romani people is seen by the facts two of their subdivisions are the Gurbet and Kara Domen, signifying possible links with the Gurbati of Iran and the Dom of the Arab Middle East. According to the Abdal themselves, they came once from North India and went to Khorasan in Iran, and are intermarried with tribe's of Turkmen, from there they went with the Seljuq to Central Anatolia."

Himtal? Aka Epthalites, Naphthali, Abdal etc.
https://dl1.cuni.cz/pluginfile.php/871531/mod_resource/content/1/sims_williams_nicholas_bactrian_documents_from_nor thern_afghanistan_II.pdf
https://books.google.com/books?id=g2m7_R5P2oAC&pg=PA118

thejkhan
06-07-2021, 09:07 AM
Per the link:
"The Abdal language consists of borrowing from Indo-Aryan languages, Persian and other Iranian sources, some Kurdish and Romani language with an essentially Turkish grammar. A possible connection with the Romani people is seen by the facts two of their subdivisions are the Gurbet and Kara Domen, signifying possible links with the Gurbati of Iran and the Dom of the Arab Middle East. According to the Abdal themselves, they came once from North India and went to Khorasan in Iran, and are intermarried with tribe's of Turkmen, from there they went with the Seljuq to Central Anatolia."

Himtal? Aka Epthalites, Naphthali, Abdal etc.
https://dl1.cuni.cz/pluginfile.php/871531/mod_resource/content/1/sims_williams_nicholas_bactrian_documents_from_nor thern_afghanistan_II.pdf
https://books.google.com/books?id=g2m7_R5P2oAC&pg=PA118

There's a Roma in the spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pHvOMVZPtNDuwVabSXD7OxdFMTYQGvfjq7Z-L6IiII0) with 20% South Asian ancestry. Abdals are a Roma subgroup. I would expect them to have similar level or more South Asian ancestry than the Balkan Roma.

Afshar
06-08-2021, 12:17 PM
There's a Roma in the spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pHvOMVZPtNDuwVabSXD7OxdFMTYQGvfjq7Z-L6IiII0) with 20% South Asian ancestry. Abdals are a Roma subgroup. I would expect them to have similar level or more South Asian ancestry than the Balkan Roma.

Abdals are not Roma.

thejkhan
06-08-2021, 01:07 PM
Abdals are not Roma.

I read that their profession, nomadic lifestyle and language are all related to the Lom, Dom and Roma living in Turkey. But you'd know better, living in Turkey.

thejkhan
06-10-2021, 11:29 AM
I don't know how I missed this but there's been another sample (SRS8752267) added to the H tree in clade H-FT282446 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/H-FT282446/), which is downstream of H-M82 (i.e. not H-Z4469) and thus very distant from the other sample mentioned in the OP.

This sample shares the clade (H-FT282446) with an Uzbek, HGDP Pashtun and HGDP Burusho.

davit
06-10-2021, 02:18 PM
We have less than dozen private Yfull samples from Afghanistan and considering that the region was at least since the Neolithic (IVC migrations, HG substrate???) rich in ASI/IVC it could easily come from Afghanistan/Tajikistan/Sistan in the last 5000 years.

Was there a time when everything west of the Hindu Kush was lacking in AASI/ASI?

thejkhan
06-10-2021, 02:31 PM
Was there a time when everything west of the Hindu Kush was lacking in AASI/ASI?

I think it's the other way around. There possibly was a time when AASI (Southern Eurasian) was very widespread in South Central Asian and Iranian plateau. There's 7-9% AASI among all Neolithic Iranian samples. Climate change and successive waves of migrations were perhaps reasons for the decline in AASI ancestry in that region.
However I don't believe the presence of few H1 or C-K98 in West Asia or Central Asia has anything to do with those ancient AASI.
For a long period before IVC I think West of Thar desert or West of Indus did not have any population with substantial AASI ancestry.

davit
06-10-2021, 02:53 PM
I think it's the other way around. There possibly was a time when AASI (Southern Eurasian) was very widespread in South Central Asian and Iranian plateau. There's 7-9% AASI among all Neolithic Iranian samples. Climate change and successive waves of migrations were perhaps reasons for the decline in AASI ancestry in that region.
However I don't believe the presence of few H1 or C-K98 in West Asia or Central Asia has anything to do with those ancient AASI.
For a long period before IVC I think West of Thar desert or West of Indus did not have any population with substantial AASI ancestry.

Are these not contradictory statements?

davit
06-10-2021, 03:01 PM
My personal theory is that Iran received ANE and AASI at the same time via R2 passing through South Asia before making its way to Iran. The earliest Iranians would be mostly generic West Eurasian and Basal Eurasian in this scenario.

thejkhan
06-10-2021, 03:11 PM
Are these not contradictory statements?

You can see it this way - let's call the AASI substrate in neolithic Iranians as AASI_Iran. And the AASI we know as AASI_SouthAsia.

AASI_Iran was turned into a small component in a few West/Central Asian population long before IVC period. And in the period leading to and at the time of early IVC phase, there was not much AASI_SouthAsia in most of Pakistan, Afghanistan or Iran. IVC period saw a rise in AASI_SouthAsia ancestry in parts of Pakistan. During this period because of trade or whatever, AASI_SouthAsia and native South Asian uniparentals started showing up in West and Central Asia.

thejkhan
06-10-2021, 03:16 PM
My personal theory is that Iran received ANE and AASI at the same time via R2 passing through South Asia before making its way to Iran. The earliest Iranians would be mostly generic West Eurasian and Basal Eurasian in this scenario.

That's possible I guess. Or maybe they never entered South Asia and mixed with AASI (deeply diverged from AASI_SouthAsia) enriched population in South Central Asia.

davit
06-10-2021, 03:40 PM
You can see it this way - let's call the AASI substrate in neolithic Iranians as AASI_Iran. And the AASI we know as AASI_SouthAsia.

AASI_Iran was turned into a small component in a few West/Central Asian population long before IVC period. And in the period leading to and at the time of early IVC phase, there was not much AASI_SouthAsia in most of Pakistan, Afghanistan or Iran. IVC period saw a rise in AASI_SouthAsia ancestry in parts of Pakistan. During this period because of trade or whatever, AASI_SouthAsia and native South Asian uniparentals started showing up in West and Central Asia.

I would tend to agree that AASI ancestry increased during the IVC and post IVC time period. The Thar desert might have been a nice border.

Or maybe the indus Valley was distinct from the rest of South Asia.

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2018/11/13/17/6138454-6385523-image-a-1_1542130323139.jpg

thejkhan
06-12-2021, 10:17 AM
I don't know how I missed this but there's been another sample (SRS8752267) added to the H tree in clade H-FT282446 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/H-FT282446/), which is downstream of H-M82 (i.e. not H-Z4469) and thus very distant from the other sample mentioned in the OP.

This sample shares the clade (H-FT282446) with an Uzbek, HGDP Pashtun and HGDP Burusho.

SRS8752267 turns out to be a Zaza Kurd. I thought it would be Turk since it shares clade H-FT282446 with an Uzbek ('Khorezmian' speaker).

thejkhan
06-14-2021, 05:41 PM
Another sample belonging to native South Asian y-dna clade C-K98 had been added to the spreadsheet (SRS8752529), of Anatolian Turk ethnicity.