PDA

View Full Version : What are the "Whitest" regions of South America?



Aiden
05-31-2021, 06:38 AM
If by White we're talking "European descent", what would the White areas of South America be? I know many South American countries definition of Whiteness is very different from that of the North American mindset so I'm really curious.

alejandromb92
05-31-2021, 07:13 AM
The most euro-leaning (genetically) regions of South America / Ibero-America are South Brazil, Western Cuba, Western Puerto Rico, Eastern Argentina (mainly Pampa region) and the whole Uruguay. This regions surpass easily the 70% of euro ancestry by genetics.

altvred
05-31-2021, 08:11 AM
There's a study from 2018 about Cuban population structure (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-29851-3), where they examined the proportions of European, Amerindian, and African ancestry in each administrative region of the country and came up with this map:

https://media.springernature.com/full/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41598-018-29851-3/MediaObjects/41598_2018_29851_Fig2_HTML.png

I haven't read any comparable studies done in other Latin American countries, although I believe that something similar was done in Puerto Rico and Mexico.

As for South America, from what I understand, while there are certain regions like South Brazil, which received large numbers of European/Middle-Eastern migrants in the last 100 years, there is as much correlation with economic-social status across much of the continent and European ancestry as with geographic location. That is, the richer you are, the more 'European' you are.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the impression I got from reading some of the responses of forum users on the topic over the years.

alejandromb92
05-31-2021, 08:25 AM
There's a study from 2018 about Cuban population structure (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-29851-3), where they examined the proportions of European, Amerindian, and African ancestry in each administrative region of the country and came up with this map:

https://media.springernature.com/full/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41598-018-29851-3/MediaObjects/41598_2018_29851_Fig2_HTML.png

I haven't read any comparable studies done in other Latin American countries, although I believe that something similar was done in Puerto Rico and Mexico.

As for South America, from what I understand, while there are certain regions like South Brazil, which received large numbers of European/Middle-Eastern migrants in the last 100 years, there is as much correlation with economic-social status across much of the continent and European ancestry as with geographic location. That is, the richer you are, the more 'European' you are.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the impression I got from reading some of the responses of forum users on the topic over the years.

You are not wrong at all, it is the reality.

Aiden
05-31-2021, 11:03 AM
The most euro-leaning (genetically) regions of South America / Ibero-America are South Brazil, Western Cuba, Western Puerto Rico, Eastern Argentina (mainly Pampa region) and the whole Uruguay. This regions surpass easily the 70% of euro ancestry by genetics.

Thanks. Very interesting, I've heard that South Brazil has many Germans and Italians, like whole villages that could be straight out of Germany and Italy

Aiden
05-31-2021, 11:06 AM
There's a study from 2018 about Cuban population structure (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-29851-3), where they examined the proportions of European, Amerindian, and African ancestry in each administrative region of the country and came up with this map:

https://media.springernature.com/full/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41598-018-29851-3/MediaObjects/41598_2018_29851_Fig2_HTML.png

I haven't read any comparable studies done in other Latin American countries, although I believe that something similar was done in Puerto Rico and Mexico.

As for South America, from what I understand, while there are certain regions like South Brazil, which received large numbers of European/Middle-Eastern migrants in the last 100 years, there is as much correlation with economic-social status across much of the continent and European ancestry as with geographic location. That is, the richer you are, the more 'European' you are.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the impression I got from reading some of the responses of forum users on the topic over the years.

That map of Cuba is fascinating! you can see the clear genetic boundary of West vs East, I never knew Cuba was like this genetically. Thanks for sharing

RCO
05-31-2021, 11:15 AM
The most "European" constituent states in Brazil are in the South, Santa Catarina with more than 80% of whites and some local municipalities with almost 100% "white" with strong German immigration, in general in Brazil the upper class is more "European" and descendants of the first European settlers and conquerors, people and families who had big farms, slaves, wealth and political oligarchies associated with the Portuguese and Brazilian Empires while the poor people are usually associated with the descendants of African slaves and detribalized Amerindian, unfortunately in Latin America Income inequality is often accompanied by extreme wealth inequality and ethnic-racial differences.

alejandromb92
05-31-2021, 11:34 AM
Thanks. Very interesting, I've heard that South Brazil has many Germans and Italians, like whole villages that could be straight out of Germany and Italy

Southern Brazil has a lot of northern italian (mainly venetian), german and portuguese immigration. They also have a lot of eastern european and middle eastern immigration.

kingeo
05-31-2021, 07:51 PM
South/Central America is too mixed to categorize them as one race. In a family, itís normal to see one sibling who looks white, and the other one who looks mestizo/a. If you are asking about recent immigrants from Europe, Argentina has a high German and Italian population.

RCO
06-01-2021, 03:57 AM
German, Polish, Ukrainian immigration was far bigger in Brazil than in Argentina, only the Italian immigration was bigger in Argentina, but Brazil also had a good number. The Brazilian population grew faster. The Brazilian state of S„o Paulo has a bigger population than Argentina with 46 million inhabitants and a far bigger genetic variation because there was also a Japanese immigration. The three Brazilian Southern states (ParanŠ, Santa Catarina and Rio Grande do Sul) have almost 30 million, more than 5 million are descendants of Germans and Santa Catarina with more than 7 million is more European in proportion than most USA states and of course Brazil is the biggest reservoir of the Northern Portuguese population in the world, there are more "white" Portuguese descendants in Brazil than in the entire Iberian peninsula.

Caius Agrippa
06-01-2021, 11:51 PM
South/Central America is too mixed to categorize them as one race. In a family, itís normal to see one sibling who looks white, and the other one who looks mestizo/a. If you are asking about recent immigrants from Europe, Argentina has a high German and Italian population.

That's the real fact, right down in the face: most Latin Americans are multigenerationally admixed people (MGM) from colonial times with ancestry in between 40-60% European, in countries like Argentina, Brazil and Cuba you can find a large portion of ''white'' population, but pretty much most whites have at least 1 MGM ancestor and some of those ''MGM'' can often come with a ''Caucasoid'' phenotype, what makes things even more complicated. Latin American users in DNA forums often aren't very honest about the true nature of their countries, I was like that in the past as well, but after getting older and reading more it starts to sound really cringe and colonized.

Brazil, Argentina and Uruguay received recent European immigrants, but most of those intermarried with the colonial population. In this very forum there is a ''Venetian-Brazilian'' guy that is 10% Amerindian, I have recent Northern Italian and Portuguese ancestors and I scored ~88% European on 23andme and ~85% on AncestryDNA, I think of myself as mixed-race or at least ''white with non-white ancestry'', 12% non-white is too much to be just white like a 100% European North American guy even though in terms of physical appearance I don't differ much from a Portuguese or Spanish and I check white in the census because I obviously don't suffer racism or prejudice in day to day life anywhere in the world.

Finding a ''pure'' Portuguese in the Brazilian young population is almost impossible, you can find full Italians or Germans since those intermarried the least with colonial people but their percentages diminish as the years go by because they marry colonial Brazilians. My wife is from Santa Catarina/Rio Grande do Sul in Southern Brazil and even with 3 full German/Northern Italian grandparents she still has Amerindian ancestry (~3-4%) and keep in mind she is much more European than average white Brazilian or any kind of Latin American and looks like she could be from Scandinavia, her dad is 100% German though.

I told it before: the tendency is that the majority of the descendants of Germans and Northern Italians in Brazil will become like the descendants of the Portuguese: mostly European but with a significant admixture (between 1-20%) given that Brazilian society goes by phenotype only and there are too much mixed people with Caucasian phenotypes.

Searching
06-02-2021, 12:45 AM
Iíve always heard that Argentina was the Whitest.

Billyh
06-02-2021, 12:49 AM
There is a lot of heterogeneity, but I think southern Uruguay. Everywhere I go says it’s 95-100% European DNA

RCO
06-02-2021, 10:44 AM
Brazil - https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/brasil/dna-results
Chile - https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/chile/dna-results
Cuba - https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/cuba-dna-project/dna-results
Mexico - https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/genealogyof-mexico-dna-project/dna-results
Puerto Rico - https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/puertoricansurname/dna-results
Andes - https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/andesarea/dna-results

We could have more FTDNA National Projects in Latin America or they are not interested ? Why ? Guess.

Caius Agrippa
06-02-2021, 11:08 AM
Brazil - https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/brasil/dna-results
Chile - https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/chile/dna-results
Cuba - https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/cuba-dna-project/dna-results
Mexico - https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/genealogyof-mexico-dna-project/dna-results
Puerto Rico - https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/puertoricansurname/dna-results
Andes - https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/andesarea/dna-results

We could have more FTDNA National Projects in Latin America or they are not interested ? Why ? Guess.

Isn't this based on yDNA and mtDNA? If yes, then it's interesting. If it's autosomal DNA then it cannot be trusted for the simple reason FTDNA ethnicity estimate is awful and among the worst for Latin Americans. As a rule, only 23andme can be trusted with relative certainty for recent ancestry.

alejandromb92
06-02-2021, 11:15 AM
That's the real fact, right down in the face: most Latin Americans are multigenerationally admixed people (MGM) from colonial times with ancestry in between 40-60% European, in countries like Argentina, Brazil and Cuba you can find a large portion of ''white'' population, but pretty much most whites have at least 1 MGM ancestor and some of those ''MGM'' can often come with a ''Caucasoid'' phenotype, what makes things even more complicated. Latin American users in DNA forums often aren't very honest about the true nature of their countries, I was like that in the past as well, but after getting older and reading more it starts to sound really cringe and colonized.

Brazil, Argentina and Uruguay received recent European immigrants, but most of those intermarried with the colonial population. In this very forum there is a ''Venetian-Brazilian'' guy that is 10% Amerindian, I have recent Northern Italian and Portuguese ancestors and I scored ~88% European on 23andme and ~85% on AncestryDNA, I think of myself as mixed-race or at least ''white with non-white ancestry'', 12% non-white is too much to be just white like a 100% European North American guy even though in terms of physical appearance I don't differ much from a Portuguese or Spanish and I check white in the census because I obviously don't suffer racism or prejudice in day to day life anywhere in the world.

Finding a ''pure'' Portuguese in the Brazilian young population is almost impossible, you can find full Italians or Germans since those intermarried the least with colonial people but their percentages diminish as the years go by because they marry colonial Brazilians. My wife is from Santa Catarina/Rio Grande do Sul in Southern Brazil and even with 3 full German/Northern Italian grandparents she still has Amerindian ancestry (~3-4%) and keep in mind she is much more European than average white Brazilian or any kind of Latin American and looks like she could be from Scandinavia, her dad is 100% German though.

I told it before: the tendency is that the majority of the descendants of Germans and Northern Italians in Brazil will become like the descendants of the Portuguese: mostly European but with a significant admixture (between 1-20%) given that Brazilian society goes by phenotype only and there are too much mixed people with Caucasian phenotypes.

That's your personal criteria, but i see ilogical to not qualificate white a person that is at least 80% white by genetics. Same for someone that is 80% black, amerindian or asian.

Caius Agrippa
06-02-2021, 11:49 AM
That's your personal criteria, but i see ilogical to not qualificate white a person that is at least 80% white by genetics. Same for someone that is 80% black, amerindian or asian.

I may have expressed myself badly, what I meant to say is that there is a slight difference between genetic identity and social/cultural identity. I do consider myself white socially and culturally but if you have 90% or 85% European ancestry definitely you're not only white genetically and I think it's worth exploring the ''minor side'' as well. If someone is, let's say, 90% European and 10% indigenous and/or SSA that person will still have pretty recent non-European ancestors. Even with 5% one can easily find very visibly admixed ancestors in the family tree (due to the racial mixing the full black and indigenous ancestors of most Latin Americans are very removed in time). And I am talking about recent ancestors, people that you can see their faces and know about their lives, not just abstract numbers on a calculator. No one needs to identify racially with a mestizo or mulatto great-grandfather, but I think one should embrace all of one's ancestors and most Latin American whites do have genetic ancestry from Amerindians and/or Blacks even in Uruguay.

RCO
06-02-2021, 12:13 PM
What we can learn with genetic genealogy is that all populations are admixtures. We have Neanderthal DNA, African Americans usually have less than 80% African DNA, I have seen only a few cases of 100% African in Brazil. The Iberian populations have Northern African DNA, our European heritage was a composite of Anatolian farmer and Iranian/CHG from Yamnaya, mestizo groups, anyway few populations speak the same native language and have the same State for centuries of years or a millennium.

MatAust21
06-02-2021, 09:34 PM
Maybe this is a biased opinion, but as someone from Southern Brazil, with my entire roots coming from European immigrants (Mostly North Italians and Germans, with some Polish), I would say that South Brazil, and more specifically Santa Catarina and the northern half of Rio Grande do Sul, maybe southern ParanŠ as well, is the area of Ibero-America where you will more often find people of ''pure European'' origins.

It is even common to find people who are still the descendants of a single ethnic group here, that is, someone who is completely German or completely Italian, and so on. The reason for that is probably because most migrants built their own small towns and settlements, rather than joining pre-existing cities.

In case someone is curious, here are some of my results, from 23andme, Ancestry and FTDNA. FTDNA did a mess with my Northwestern European regions, but all three of them give me similar percentages for Northwestern, Southern, and Eastern Europe.

https://i.ibb.co/wzx15N7/e.png
https://i.ibb.co/wzx15N7/e.png

https://i.ibb.co/x5SMJVv/20210602-180423.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/x5SMJVv/20210602-180423.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/4RJzft1/20210602-180519.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/4RJzft1/20210602-180519.jpg

Ancestry gives me an American Genetic Community, but that is probably due to the Rhineland German connection. I don't have any ancestry from the US.

https://i.ibb.co/sqWGSVV/20210602-180903.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/sqWGSVV/20210602-180903.jpg

Also, you can see my Ethnogene results here:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15953-Ethnogene-results&p=771209#post771209

MatAust21
06-02-2021, 10:07 PM
I can't vouch for the accuracy of what he states, but there is one youtuber who talks a lot about demographic issues (non-political) that some users here might find interesting:

https://m.youtube.com/c/Masaman/videos

Here are some screenshots regarding Latin America:

https://i.ibb.co/nD2zDn1/Screenshot-20190611-212259-You-Tube.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/nD2zDn1/Screenshot-20190611-212259-You-Tube.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/wwkcNp9/Screenshot-20200324-174400-You-Tube.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/wwkcNp9/Screenshot-20200324-174400-You-Tube.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/Y0KmKD3/Screenshot-20190611-212109-You-Tube.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/Y0KmKD3/Screenshot-20190611-212109-You-Tube.jpg


Also here are some interesting creations of his, including a migration map, a PCA, an ethnic map, and an Amerindian ancestry map:

https://ibb.co/zNf2k1R
https://ibb.co/bFrqBdS
https://ibb.co/F6TqRmP
https://ibb.co/CWw0k9j

https://i.ibb.co/LvpgGMt/b37xi3av7dg31.png
https://i.ibb.co/zFSjRfy/cu77zcilj8p41.png
https://i.ibb.co/xhT8xX4/bqr3uvwv05h21.png
https://i.ibb.co/SJ6vhmk/utyrw1nb9yz41.png

cheshire
06-03-2021, 01:09 AM
Is this theapricity now or what? :)

Aiden
06-03-2021, 04:08 PM
I can't vouch for the accuracy of what he states, but there is one youtuber who talks a lot about demographic issues (non-political) that some users here might find interesting:

https://m.youtube.com/c/Masaman/videos

Here are some screenshots regarding Latin America:

https://i.ibb.co/nD2zDn1/Screenshot-20190611-212259-You-Tube.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/nD2zDn1/Screenshot-20190611-212259-You-Tube.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/wwkcNp9/Screenshot-20200324-174400-You-Tube.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/wwkcNp9/Screenshot-20200324-174400-You-Tube.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/Y0KmKD3/Screenshot-20190611-212109-You-Tube.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/Y0KmKD3/Screenshot-20190611-212109-You-Tube.jpg


Also here are some interesting creations of his, including a migration map, a PCA, an ethnic map, and an Amerindian ancestry map:

https://ibb.co/zNf2k1R
https://ibb.co/bFrqBdS
https://ibb.co/F6TqRmP
https://ibb.co/CWw0k9j

https://i.ibb.co/LvpgGMt/b37xi3av7dg31.png
https://i.ibb.co/zFSjRfy/cu77zcilj8p41.png
https://i.ibb.co/xhT8xX4/bqr3uvwv05h21.png
https://i.ibb.co/SJ6vhmk/utyrw1nb9yz41.png

Amazing find! thanks for posting this

Azbuzz
06-03-2021, 06:33 PM
I can't vouch for the accuracy of what he states, but there is one youtuber who talks a lot about demographic issues (non-political) that some users here might find interesting:

https://m.youtube.com/c/Masaman/videos

Here are some screenshots regarding Latin America:

https://i.ibb.co/nD2zDn1/Screenshot-20190611-212259-You-Tube.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/nD2zDn1/Screenshot-20190611-212259-You-Tube.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/wwkcNp9/Screenshot-20200324-174400-You-Tube.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/wwkcNp9/Screenshot-20200324-174400-You-Tube.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/Y0KmKD3/Screenshot-20190611-212109-You-Tube.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/Y0KmKD3/Screenshot-20190611-212109-You-Tube.jpg


Also here are some interesting creations of his, including a migration map, a PCA, an ethnic map, and an Amerindian ancestry map:

https://ibb.co/zNf2k1R
https://ibb.co/bFrqBdS
https://ibb.co/F6TqRmP
https://ibb.co/CWw0k9j

https://i.ibb.co/LvpgGMt/b37xi3av7dg31.png
https://i.ibb.co/zFSjRfy/cu77zcilj8p41.png
https://i.ibb.co/xhT8xX4/bqr3uvwv05h21.png
https://i.ibb.co/SJ6vhmk/utyrw1nb9yz41.png

The first picture seems inaccurate. Quebecois are definitely more than 85 percent Euro.

Azbuzz
06-03-2021, 06:35 PM
https://www.google.com/search?q=23andme+average+latin+america+dna&client=ms-android-google&prmd=nisv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi13-etjfzwAhULA6wKHWv6B88Q_AUoAnoECAIQAg&biw=393&bih=698&dpr=2.75

These are the averages based on 23andme users for Carribeans and South Americans.

R.Rocca
06-03-2021, 07:07 PM
https://www.google.com/search?q=23andme+average+latin+america+dna&client=ms-android-google&prmd=nisv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi13-etjfzwAhULA6wKHWv6B88Q_AUoAnoECAIQAg&biw=393&bih=698&dpr=2.75

These are the averages based on 23andme users for Carribeans and South Americans.

I travel a lot for work and that seems to be spot on "for the most part". However, the caution is that this is based on customer data and that can cause major issues. For example, most 23andMe customers that label themselves as Cuban are likely the first wave to migrate to the USA or their children. People that currently live in Cuba have much higher Sub-Saharan and Amerindian ancestry. See here: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-29851-3

MatAust21
06-03-2021, 10:22 PM
The first picture seems inaccurate. Quebecois are definitely more than 85 percent Euro.

I am not necessarilly disagreeing with you, since I am not that familiar with Quebec, but please keep in mind that this is supposed to represent the average of the modern region of Quebec, and not only the people with traditional ancestry from the region.

In other words, it is supposed to include the impact of recent immigrants.

drobbah
06-03-2021, 11:49 PM
The first picture seems inaccurate. Quebecois are definitely more than 85 percent Euro.
According to Statcan, visible minorities makeup around ~13% of Quebec's population.This includes those from the Caribbean (Haitians for example),Latinos,Asians & Africans.The two largest visible minority groups are Blacks mostly French speaking Haitians & West/Central Africans and Arabic speaking NW Africans & Lebanese.

Moderator
06-04-2021, 02:44 AM
Dear all,

We've made the decision to close this thread as the wording of the initial post is not in keeping with our community standards, and several subsequent posts have also fallen short of those standards. While there are elements of discussion here that could prove fruitful, we would encourage you to pursue them using more appropriate language/lines of investigation, such as "historical migration patterns to South America from Europe" or some variation of "population-wide autosomal breakdowns in South America". As always, discussions prompted by and/or oriented around specific papers or datasets are appreciated.

Thank you for your understanding.