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maeloc
06-01-2021, 07:07 PM
Aqui teneis un mapa que hice sobre la mezcla europea en America Latina. Las fuentes estan en la imagen.

alejandromb92
06-01-2021, 07:43 PM
Estoy muy de acuerdo, literal es el mapa mas perfecto que puede haber de la Ibero-America europea. Te has esmerado!

Caius Agrippa
06-01-2021, 08:52 PM
I strongly doubt that there are regions of Cuba in which the general population is 80% or 90% European on average, that would basically make the majority of the population phenotypically European and that's far from reality. Southern Brazil has much more ''phenotypical whites'' than Cuba and it's around 78% European on average. I think you are using Cuban-Americans as averages for Cuba.

Brazilian map is incorrect too, the reddiest region is actually among the least European influenced regions of Southern Brazil, the regions up north received much more influences from recent immigration.

maeloc
06-01-2021, 08:57 PM
I strongly doubt that there are regions of Cuba in which the general population is 80% or 90% European on average, that would basically make the majority of the population phenotypically European and that's far from reality. Southern Brazil has much more ''phenotypical whites'' than Cuba and it's around 78% European on average. I think you are using Cuban-Americans as averages for Cuba.
This is not true. The reason you think this is because most Cubans that go to South-America are mixed-race or black (which is due to the segregation in Cuba that even still lingers on today) because they have no old family members that went to Spain (recent Spanish DNA) or the United States (old nobility). Here is the source to the study that conducted the DNA test. It has a lot to do with economic class.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-29851-3



Brazilian map is incorrect too, the reddiest region is actually among the least European influenced regions of Southern Brazil, the regions up north received much more influences from recent immigration.

I have multiple studies that say the opposite.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4177621/
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0075145
https://www.scielo.br/j/gmb/a/fk6kLTxZknvrJjmC9hdcZBC/?lang=en
https://www.pnas.org/content/112/28/8696



The only real thing you can say about this map is that the Yucatan peninsula is wrong, I had a lot of conflicting data from the Mexican studies with some giving the region way more European ADN than what is pictured too. Other than that, everything is completely sourced.

Caius Agrippa
06-01-2021, 09:05 PM
This is not true. The reason you think this is because most Cubans that go to South-America are mixed-race or black (which is due to the segregation in Cuba that even still lingers on today) because they have no old family members that went to Spain (recent Spanish DNA) or the United States (old nobility). Here is the source to the study that conducted the DNA test. It has a lot to do with economic class.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-29851-3



I have multiple studies that say the opposite.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4177621/
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0075145
https://www.scielo.br/j/gmb/a/fk6kLTxZknvrJjmC9hdcZBC/?lang=en
https://www.pnas.org/content/112/28/8696



The only real thing you can say about this map is that the Yucatan peninsula is wrong, I had a lot of conflicting data from the Mexican studies with some giving the region way more European ADN than what is pictured too. Other than that, everything is completely sourced.

None of the studies you actually posted corroborates your map. I mean, not a single one of those studies said, for example, that the southern part of Rio Grande do Sul is the most European region of Brazil, Northern Rio Grande do Sul and Santa Catarina state are by far much more European. You just guessed it based on nothing, everyone that has any clue on Brazilian demography knows it is blatantly false.

But after seeing what you said in that Portuguese G25 thread, I know very well your intentions.

maeloc
06-01-2021, 09:14 PM
None of the studies you actually posted corroborates your map.

Okay I will attempt to be as nice as possible but did you actually read any of them? I have made this image macro so you can understand.

Caius Agrippa
06-01-2021, 09:20 PM
Okay I will attempt to be as nice as possible but did you actually read any of them? I have made this image macro so you can understand.

Man, I have seen all of those studies plenty of times, just look it up that I edited my reply. There are much more studies giving a more balanced picture. You just cherrypicked some studies that do not even say exactly what you claimed.

maeloc
06-01-2021, 09:29 PM
Man, I have seen all of those studies plenty of times, just look it up that I edited my reply. There are much more studies giving a more balanced picture. You just cherrypicked some studies that do not even say exactly what you claimed.

I cherrypicked? I literally have 5 Brazilian studies there. I can't even find more.


I mean, not a single one of those studies said, for example, that the southern part of Rio Grande do Sul is the most European region of Brazil, Northern Rio Grande do Sul and Santa Catarina state are by far much more European. You just guessed it based on nothing, everyone that has any clue on Brazilian demography knows it is blatantly false.
Again, you refused to read. Look at the Scielo study's image. The ncbi study also shows the same thing. Are you sure you even know how to read these? Up until a little bit ago you believed that northern Brazil had a higher European ADN than southern Brazil hahaha


But after seeing what you said in that Portuguese G25 thread, I know very well your intentions.
What is this even supposed to mean? I said that when making Iron Age models of Iberians (or anybody for that matter) you should never use Imperial Roman samples because they are not ancestral to Iberians? What is wrong with that exactly? What "agenda" do you think I am trying to spin here?

Caius Agrippa
06-01-2021, 09:39 PM
Up until a little bit ago you believed that northern Brazil had a higher European ADN than southern Brazil hahaha



Where did I said that? You should improve your reading skills, I was talking specifically about admixture inside Southern Brazil. I did not even bring Northern Brazil in any discussion. I said regions up north in Southern Brazil are more European than regions down south near Uruguay border as your map shows.

Besides, there cannot be many regions with overwhelming majority (80%+) of population over 80-90% European in Cuba if the country as a whole is around ~70% (that's the claim of that Nature study).



What is this even supposed to mean? I said that when making Iron Age models of Iberians (or anybody for that matter) you should never use Imperial Roman samples because they are not ancestral to Iberians? What is wrong with that exactly? What "agenda" do you think I am trying to spin here?

You are wrong in this as well, Roman settlers in Iberia were similar to Imperial Romans, not Iron Age Latins. Unless you want to believe that Iberians have actual Eastern Mediterranean/Levantine admixture. But this is off-topic and I was just pointing to a common pattern of thought commonly found in some DNA forums.

Moderator
06-01-2021, 09:45 PM
A general warning: please keep this discussion civil. One-on-one arguments and accusatory language are against our Terms of Service and there is no reason for them here. If you cannot discuss the issues respectfully, infractions will follow.

maeloc
06-01-2021, 09:48 PM
Where did I said that? You should improve your reading skills, I was talking specifically about admixture inside Southern Brazil. I did not even bring Northern Brazil in any discussion. I said regions up north in Southern Brazil are more European than regions down south near Uruguay border as your map shows.

You said "the reddiest region is actually among the least European influenced regions of Southern Brazil, the regions up north received much more influences from recent immigration." which is open ended and brings someone to conclude that you are talking about northern Brazil. In any case, my map is accurate and follows with the ncbi and scielo study quite well and makes a fair compromise between the two.


Besides, there cannot be regions with significant population over 80-90% European in Cuba if the country as a whole is around ~70% (that's the claim of that Nature study).

If the average is 70 and the eastern part has places that dip down to 50 and some places in the west that are over 80-90 then yes it very well could be around 70%. Go to Pinar del Rio instead of travelling to Havana and you will see whites like Willy Chirino for example. I don't know why this is such a hard concept for you to comprehend. Cuba received the highest Spanish immigration of any Spanish colony ever.



You are wrong in this as well, Roman settlers in Iberia were similar to Imperial Romans, not Iron Age Latins. Unless you want to believe that Iberians have actual Eastern Mediterranean/Levantine admixture. But this is off-topic and I was just pointing to a common pattern of thought commonly found in some DNA forums.

No, they weren't. Most of the settlers came from mainland Italy, when looking into the genealogies of people from Italica for example they all come from central or southern Italy. Imperial samples which are mixed all across the Mediteranean are NOT accurate migrants of those who went into Italy.



This is the last post I will make on the matter. To cut it short, Brazil is accurate and follows the images to a tee and makes a compromise into the two. The Cuba study is also accurate and sampled over 1,000 people.

Caius Agrippa
06-01-2021, 09:56 PM
You said "the reddiest region is actually among the least European influenced regions of Southern Brazil, the regions up north received much more influences from recent immigration." which is open ended and brings someone to conclude that you are talking about northern Brazil. In any case, my map is accurate and follows with the ncbi and scielo study quite well and makes a fair compromise between the two.


Exactly, I said that the reddiest regions are among the least European influenced regions of Southern Brazil. What is difficult to understand in that sentence? That region is actually the most colonial influenced region of Rio Grande do Sul state, the region that has received the least European immigration and the ''blackest'' part of the state, it cannot be more European than regions like Serra Gaścha and no study actually claimed that. In some studies that region even come off as less European than Southeast Brazil.




If the average is 70 and the eastern part has places that dip down to 50 and some places in the west that are over 80-90 then yes it very well could be around 70%. Go to Pinar del Rio instead of travelling to Havana and you will see whites like Willy Chirino for example. I don't know why this is such a hard concept for you to comprehend. Cuba received the highest Spanish immigration of any Spanish colony ever.



Ok, that may be true and Cuba indeed received more Spaniards than other Spanish colonies. But other Cuban studies reached slightly different results even if inside the same range.


On Iberians, you now have to explain how Levantine DNA reached Iberia if not through Romans. Also, Imperial Roman sample comes from Italy, not from the Middle East.

maeloc
06-01-2021, 10:02 PM
On Iberians, you now have to explain how Levantine DNA reached Iberia if not through Romans. Also, Imperial Roman sample comes from Italy, not from the Middle East.
People similar to Sefardics today that had mixed with southern Italians and went to Iberia. The problem with using Imperial Roman is that it will inflate the amount of Roman migration that went into Iberia by adding Levant onto it. There were pure groups of Italics that migrated first between the 1st through 5th centuries and then during the later era of the empire this new population of Levant mixed with southern Italy had migrated to Iberia. When doing an IA or a BA calculator you want to detect Iron Age ancestry, and these people simply did not exist in the Iron or Bronze age. So it is more appropriate to model Iberians with something Iron Age Italic and then seperate Levant_IA like Abel or Ashkelon.

Caius Agrippa
06-01-2021, 10:08 PM
People similar to Sefardics today that had mixed with southern Italians and went to Iberia. The problem with using Imperial Roman is that it will inflate the amount of Roman migration that went into Iberia by adding Levant onto it. There were pure groups of Italics that migrated first between the 1st through 5th centuries and then during the later era of the empire this new population of Levant mixed with southern Italy had migrated to Iberia. When doing an IA or a BA calculator you want to detect Iron Age ancestry, and these people simply did not exist in the Iron or Bronze age. So it is more appropriate to model Iberians with something Iron Age Italic and then seperate Levant_IA like Abel or Ashkelon.

Let me see if I understand correctly, are you claiming that Eastern Mediterranean in Iberia reached the peninsula through ''Sephardic-like'' DNA instead of Roman? I don't know of any type of migration like that unless you are talking about actual Sephardic Jews but IBD sharing between Iberians and Sephardic Jews goes against that thesis. If you're talking about older migrations it's still unlikely given that Iron Age Iberians were similar to modern Southwestern French and historically there are only 3 or 4 possibilities: Phoenicians, Romans, Moors and Jews.

RCO
06-01-2021, 10:11 PM
Brasil - Brazil

44915

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/Munic%C3%ADpios_do_Brasil_-_Grupos_%C3%A9tnico-raciais_predominantes.png

maeloc
06-01-2021, 10:13 PM
Let me see if I understand correctly, are you claiming that Eastern Mediterranean in Iberia reached the peninsula through ''Sephardic-like'' DNA instead of Roman? I don't know of any type of migration like that unless you are talking about actual Sephardic Jews but IBD sharing between Iberians and Sephardic Jews goes against that thesis. If you're talking about older migrations it's still unlikely given that Iron Age Iberians were similar to modern Southwestern French and historically there are only 3 or 4 possibilities: Phoenicians, Romans, Moors and Jews.

No, maybe I wasn't clear enough. The first Levant immigration into Iberia was direct, via the Phoenecians which had highest impact in Ibiza and Cadiz. Then, during the Roman Empire a Levant group came into Italy (or Greece) and mixed with the local population and settled in Iberia. All of these groups mixed with Iberians, so that's why Iberians and Sephardic Jews have similar ancestry.

Caius Agrippa
06-01-2021, 10:51 PM
No, maybe I wasn't clear enough. The first Levant immigration into Iberia was direct, via the Phoenecians which had highest impact in Ibiza and Cadiz. Then, during the Roman Empire a Levant group came into Italy (or Greece) and mixed with the local population and settled in Iberia. All of these groups mixed with Iberians, so that's why Iberians and Sephardic Jews have similar ancestry.

That makes sense, I just don't know if we can know for sure if Romans in Iberia were really Iron Age Latins because at the time of the conquest that profile had already vanished from Central Italy, Central Italians returned to a more intermediary position between north and south due to later inputs after the fall of the Western Roman Empire.

On the thread topic, I'd just like to clarify that your map overall isn't bad, I may have sounded rude, I was just pointing some things that in my view are imprecisions.

Also, I really don't think that any Latin American region with significant population has more than 80% European average admixture apart from Uruguay. Only ''microregions'' in other countries could have such profiles in my opinion and I have seen tons of academic studies. Latin American big cities, where lives the majority of the population, are extremely admixed and the overall European ancestry of countries like Venezuela, Colombia,Chile, Dominican Republic, Peru, Mexico, Central American countries certainly doesn't surpass 60% or even 50% in many cases. Only Argentina, Brazil, Puerto Rico and Cuba apart from Uruguay have significant European-influenced populations.

Despite academic studies I also pay attention to 23andme Reddit and seeing a Latin American result outside of Brazil, Argentina, Cuba and Uruguay with more than 80% and especially 90% European ancestry is extremely rare. The real fact is that most Latin Americans are either balanced Mestizos, mulattoes, Amerindians or more balanced triracials, North American stereotype of Latin Americans isn't untrue, it is based on reality.