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View Full Version : Which Population In Italy Would Have 24-37% Steppe Related Admixture? North?



DarkSpaceCorridor
06-08-2021, 07:42 AM
I have not seen any Italians who have 24-40% Steppe related admixture. The gene database for ethnic Italians is small, there hasn't been enough testing, which region of Italy would be a good stand in for having similar admixture components to the pre-Roman and Roman Republic populations of Latium/Tuscany? I think the Neolithic admixture surged in Italy as time went on since that was preserved more in the rural areas, populations decreased in urban centres due to war. The Germanics never did good sacks of Rome which is why there are still many buildings that are almost fully intact and not all of the ethnic Italian population left the city when they came. I'm guessing there are still some ethnic Italians in Rome now who have similar admixture components to Ancient Latium but most of Rome was replaced with Iron age looking Italians from other parts of Italy when the city fell to the Visigoths.


"genetic differences between the examined Etruscans and Latins were found to be insignificant.[67] The Etruscan individuals and contemporary Latins were distinguished from preceding populations of Italy by the presence of ca. 30-40% steppe ancestry.[68] Their DNA was a mixture of two-thirds Copper Age ancestry (EEF + WHG; Etruscans ~6672%, Latins ~6275%) and one-third Steppe-related ancestry (Etruscans ~2733%, Latins ~2437%) (with the EEF component mainly deriving from Neolithic-era migrants to Europe from Anatolia and the WHG being local Western European hunter-gatherers, with both components, along with that from the steppe, being found in virtually all European populations).[24"

I'm guessing certain central regions and the North might, like the ItaloCelts of Brescia in Lombardy. I don't think all of those people exactly resembled Ancient Romans. Most Ancient Romans were Atlantid/Dinarid/Alpinid and Atlanto Med Phenotypes with the majority having fair (but not pale) skin and a minority having olive/tan, likely 70% fair 30% tan/olive.

https://i656.photobucket.com/albums/uu281/Octoscum/atlantidm_zps38be20cd.jpg

General Germanicus and his Italian Legions could have conquered all of Germany but history was changed due to the jealousy of Emperor Tiberius who conspired against him.

Luso
06-08-2021, 07:21 PM
I'm guessing certain central regions and the North might, like the ItaloCelts of Brescia in Lombardy. I don't think all of those people exactly resembled Ancient Romans. Most Ancient Romans were Atlantid/Dinarid/Alpinid and Atlanto Med Phenotypes with the majority having fair (but not pale) skin and a minority having olive/tan, likely 70% fair 30% tan/olive.

https://i656.photobucket.com/albums/uu281/Octoscum/atlantidm_zps38be20cd.jpg

General Germanicus and his Italian Legions could have conquered all of Germany but history was changed due to the jealousy of Emperor Tiberius who conspired against him.

Aren't these phenotypes really just pseudoscience abstractions? How would we know if a majority were pale, fair, or dark, or not? We'd probably have to look at specific SNPs for the population to make that assumption.

alejandromb92
06-08-2021, 08:06 PM
Northernmost italians are the ones who could reach steppe admixture above 35%. Southernmost are below 25%.

I don't believe in the pseudoscience of phenotypes but certainly i believe the average roman phenotype would be between Atlanto-Med, Dinarid and Alpinid.

Michalis Moriopoulos
06-09-2021, 02:08 AM
I have not seen any Italians who have 24-40% Steppe related admixture.

Huh? If you're talking about EMBA type Steppe ancestry (Yamnaya-like), most Italians easily score in that range when run through the G25 tool. 30-40% is standard for Northern and Central Italy. Some Aostans and Friulians score even higher than 40%. Quite a few Southern Italians score more than 24% steppe, too, for that matter, and most of those shy of the quartermark aren't very far from that threshold anyway. There's a Calabrian and Basilicatan outlier that score 17%; most are well above that figure. Italkim and Sardinians have the least steppe ancestry (often scoring single digits even).

If by steppe-related ancestry you're talking about Steppe MLBA-like ancestry (Bell Beaker or Corded Ware-related) the percentages go up even more.


The gene database for ethnic Italians is small, there hasn't been enough testing, which region of Italy would be a good stand in for having similar admixture components to the pre-Roman and Roman Republic populations of Latium/Tuscany?

Many Northern Italians come close, but they're not carbon copies of IA Italians. They have other admixture, too.


I think the Neolithic admixture surged in Italy as time went on since that was preserved more in the rural areas, populations decreased in urban centres due to war.

Anatolian Neolithic farmer ancestry has been high in Italy since the Neolithic. By the time you have urban centers, it was already mixed with steppe ancestry. I see no evidence of a rural vs urban distinction in terms of ancestry components for native Italians at any point in antiquity.


I'm guessing there are still some ethnic Italians in Rome now who have similar admixture components to Ancient Latium but most of Rome was replaced with Iron age looking Italians from other parts of Italy when the city fell to the Visigoths.

I'm not following you here at all.


The Etruscan individuals and contemporary Latins were distinguished from preceding populations of Italy by the presence of ca. 30-40% steppe ancestry.

More like ~20-35% Yamnaya-like ancestry in the non-outliers if we go by G25.

Kapisa
06-09-2021, 03:24 AM
Huh? If you're talking about EMBA type Steppe ancestry (Yamnaya-like), most Italians easily score in that range when run through the G25 tool. 30-40% is standard for Northern and Central Italy. Some Aostans and Friulians score even higher than 40%. Quite a few Southern Italians score more than 24% steppe, too, for that matter, and most of those shy of the quartermark aren't very far from that threshold anyway. There's a Calabrian and Basilicatan outlier that score 17%; most are well above that figure. Italkim and Sardinians have the least steppe ancestry (often scoring single digits even).

If by steppe-related ancestry you're talking about Steppe MLBA-like ancestry (Bell Beaker or Corded Ware-related) the percentages go up even more.



Many Northern Italians come close, but they're not carbon copies of IA Italians. They have other admixture, too.



Anatolian Neolithic farmer ancestry has been high in Italy since the Neolithic. By the time you have urban centers, it was already mixed with steppe ancestry. I see no evidence of a rural vs urban distinction in terms of ancestry components for native Italians at any point in antiquity.



I'm not following you here at all.



More like ~20-35% Yamnaya-like ancestry in the non-outliers if we go by G25.

Another problem is the underlying assumption in the OP (starting from "I am guessing")that somehow Steppe admixture is the only source of skin depigmentation phenotype! This isn't entirely true since we have populations in West Asia, Central and South Asia that don't have Steppe ancestry MLBA in that range of OP but have depigmentation alleles and corresponding phenotype and vice versa.
The reason is it's not one but an interaction of several genes in a network that produces ultimate phenotype. The relative dominance of genes also matters which can effect penantrance. This phenotype has appeared in different populations independently almost all living a certain latitude away from equator.
In case of Italians, Anatolian Farmers related depigmentation alleles are already present among them in addition to the ones inherited from Steppe pastoralists. Later selection for this trait has already been documented among Europeans (Johannes Krause).

Dewsloth
06-09-2021, 05:40 AM
If you mean people who died a long time ago in what is now Italy, there's R31, but I'm pretty sure he wasn't really a local:

Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR31
Distance: 4.8207% / 0.04820656
43.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
38.8 TUR_Barcin_N
17.6 WHG
-or-

Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR31
Distance: 4.6735% / 0.04673453
41.2 TUR_Barcin_N
36.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
22.8 Baltic_LVA_HG

Unfortunately I've found nothing about any grave goods nor isotope studies in reference to his excavation.