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leorcooper19
06-09-2021, 02:17 AM
Much discussion and debate has taken place on the proximate origins of Eastern Ashkenazi Jews, and their exact connection to both the Western Ashkenazi Jews of Germany and France and the medieval eastern Kna'anim, who were the Slavic-speaking Jews of Eastern Europe. I'll go into the most up-to-date onomastic, linguistic, autosomal, Y-DNA, and mtDNA evidences to show that Eastern Ashkenazi Jews are in fact almost entirely derived from Eastern Yiddish-speaking Jews of eastern Germany/West Slavic lands, who themselves were mainly derived from Western Ashkenazi Jews.

Onomastics:
Dr. Alexander Beider has written extensively on the subject of Ashkenazi onomastics, that being the study of names in the Ashkenazi community. In his article Onomastic analysis of the Origins of Jews in Central Europe he goes into great detail about the origins of nearly all commonly and uncommonly used given names found among Ashkenazim. Using a combination of martyr lists, tombstones, and other historical documents, he finds that a huge majority of given names were first cited in Germany and the Czech Republic, with only a tiny minority being cited first among East Kna'anim. As many here know, Ashkenazim have a strong naming tradition of naming children after recently passed ancestors, and this tradition has been strong since at least the Rhineland massacres of 1096, as evidenced by the martyr list.

Linguistics:
Beider has also written extensively on the origin of Yiddish, on which he wrote a book-length work called The Origins of Yiddish Dialects. In this book, he demonstrates that both the old Rhineland theory supported by Weinreich and other theories of a Bavarian origin of Yiddish fail to account for several linguistic phenomena, and makes the huge claim that Western Yiddish and Eastern Yiddish do not descend from a common "Proto-Yiddish", but rather from different German dialects. Eastern Yiddish, he finds, is closest to what he calls Silesian German, and identifies the historical region of Silesia as the land where Eastern Yiddish was first spoken. This particular claim has been picked apart by Leyzer Burko (https://ingeveb.org/articles/new-yiddish-dialectology) in his review of the book, as he suggests that the lexicon of Eastern Yiddish is better explained through dialect leveling of several SE German dialects, including Bavarian, Franconian, Bohemian, and Silesian German.

Autosomal:
Genetic analysis of Ashkenazim from across Europe has long revealed an extremely unique population with clear signs of genetic drift, a profile that is shared by all Ashkenazim. This is clearly evident on PCAs using G25, where Western Ashkenazim from France and Germany form a short cline with Eastern Ashkenazi Jews, defined by differing levels of Slavic ancestry. See this (https://ibb.co/khtnBdk) PCA for an example. I created it using samples from here (https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/07/getting-most-out-of-global25_12.html) using the Vahaduo G25 Views site here (https://vahaduo.github.io/g25views/#Europe1).

Y-DNA:
Novel research from myself and other forum members have found that the vast majority of Eastern Ashkenazi Jewish Y-chromosomes derive from high medieval German and Czech Jews. This is most evident with lineages like R-Y2619, E-Y6938, J-Y5400, Q-Y2200, G-Y12975, J-L816, E-Y14891, J-Y15223, and J-L556. Together, these lineages make up almost 50% of Eastern Ashkenazi Jewish Y-chromosomes. All of these are very common among German and French Jews, and most have members with deep pedigrees to medieval French and German Rabbinical families, with the exception of E-Y6938, which was more likely connected to Czech Jewry. This connects to existing research done by the Jews of Frankfurt project (https://jewsoffrankfurt.com/), which was the first to connect these old genealogies to Y-DNA. There are many other lineages with similar connections to French and German Jews, but these nine are by far the largest.

mtDNA:
The 4 largest lineages among Ashkenazim as first found by Behar et al. 2006 (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929707623878) (K1a1b1a, N1b1b1, K1a9, K2a2a1) were later found by Costa et al. 2013 (https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms3543) to be just as-- if not more-- common among Western Ashkenazi Jews than Eastern Ashkenazi Jews. This is best seen from the point of view of K1a1b1a, which was found at a rate of 37.5% in WAJs. K1a1b1a is also the most common mtDNA lineage for almost all EAJ subgroups, only rarely beaten out by others. Smaller mtDNAs like J1c7a, L2a1l2a, and H7e are also very common among WAJs, while lineages like HV1b2 and V7a are mostly absent.

With all these evidences taken together, it is evident that Eastern Ashkenazi Jews are mainly derived from medieval German and Czech Jews. However, there is real potential for a small East Kna'anic component. Evidences for this include:
1) The existence of male and female given names that derive from East Slavic and/or older Jewish names that were cited first in East Slavic-speaking lands.
2) The existence of unique dialect words for religious concepts or items that do not derive from Eastern Yiddish or from East Slavic words.
3) The existence of Y-DNA and mtDNA lineages that are not found at all or only rarely among WAJs, are tied in some way to an eastern route by way of a late divergence or unique connection to a group from Eastern Europe/West Asia, but are also not evidence of Slavic conversion to Judaism. Examples of these include I-Y23115, R-FGC13211, G-FGC1093, HV1b2, and M33c2.

However, these evidences together do not total to a significant portion of EAJ's ancestry. At maximum, I believe East Kna'anic ancestry could only be around 10%. For the vast majority of EAJs, it will be under 5%, probably ending up to be similar to the % of ancestry derived from late Sephardic migrants who joined Ashkenazi communities after the 1391 and 1492 expulsions from Spain.

The main evidence (or really, logic) cited against a majority WAJ-derived ancestry for EAJs is the so-called "demographic miracle," where some simply cannot believe that Jews from German and West Slavic lands could be mathematically grown their population to the extent of the known population of EAJs in the early modern period. While I do acknowledge the huge growth that must have occurred at this time, I also believe that demographic estimates of historical populations are extremely difficult to make and are often overturned when new, outside evidence is found, just as few of us believe the myth of all Ashkenazim deriving from only 350 people living in the high-to-late medieval period. Relative to these historical demographic estimates, the above evidences can actually be trusted insofar as they show the actual relative sizes of these ancestral components of EAJs.

I would love to hear any argument against these evidences or my conclusion, and I'd also would appreciate any other evidences in favor of my conclusions that I didn't mention here. Hoping for a fun and substantive debate that (hopefully) won't devolve into a Khazarian mess. Cheers!

StillWater
06-09-2021, 04:07 AM
As the counsel of the KNAAN YEVAN SEPARATIST MOVEMENT, how do you defend your Ashkenazi colonialism against EAJ preferring East Slavic references, even when East Asian is in the model?

leorcooper19
06-09-2021, 04:36 AM
As the counsel of the KNAAN YEVAN SEPARATIST MOVEMENT, how do you defend your Ashkenazi colonialism against EAJ preferring East Slavic references, even when East Asian is in the model?



Well, I think this can be explained as the combination of a few different sources:
1) West Slavs and East Slavs simply do not differ significantly. See this (https://ibb.co/s6jN83q) PCA and these distances:
Distance to: Polish
0.01028002 Ukrainian
0.01717779 Russian_Voronez
0.01832130 Russian_Orel
0.01881539 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.01998054 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.02090743 Russian_Smolensk
0.02138159 Belarusian
0.02260559 Russian_Kursk
0.02287775 Slovakian
0.02486398 Czech
0.02698305 Lithuanian_PA
0.02699186 Moldovan_o
0.03107363 Lithuanian_VA
0.03131693 Russian_Tver
0.03185404 German_East

2) Similarly, some migration era and early medieval samples from Moravia- a site of particular importance to early EAJs- had profiles similar to Slavs across the Slavic world, including even Slavs with Baltic-associated genetic drift.

3) Some EAJs do have some small amount of relatively recent convert ancestry from West and East Slavs, as evidenced by several mtDNA lineages that are both nested in Slavic diversity and are only found among EAJs. It could simply be a matter of a founder effect, where the Slavic women who did convert to Judaism were just barely more east-shifted than average and that relatively small difference compounded into the pretty consistent pattern we see with the preference of East Slavic over West Slavic.

4) The difference of fit simply isn't significant either. See:

Target: EAJ
Distance: 0.7220% / 0.00721992
88.2 French_Jew
10.6 Polish
1.2 Han_Sichuan

Target: EAJ
Distance: 0.7062% / 0.00706214
89.0 French_Jew
9.8 Russian_Smolensk
1.2 Han_Sichuan


So Ashkenazi colonialism will have to stay for now ;)

jkotl0327
06-09-2021, 04:37 AM
As the counsel of the KNAAN YEVAN SEPARATIST MOVEMENT, how do you defend your Ashkenazi colonialism against EAJ preferring East Slavic references, even when East Asian is in the model?

What and WAJ don't?

45098
And the fact that their closest viking match in models comes from all the way over here doesn't ring any alarm bells? Maybe the issue is deeper than EAJ vs WAJ?

StillWater
06-09-2021, 05:37 AM
Well, I think this can be explained as the combination of a few different sources:
1) West Slavs and East Slavs simply do not differ significantly. See this (https://ibb.co/s6jN83q) PCA and these distances:
Distance to: Polish
0.01028002 Ukrainian
0.01717779 Russian_Voronez
0.01832130 Russian_Orel
0.01881539 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.01998054 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.02090743 Russian_Smolensk
0.02138159 Belarusian
0.02260559 Russian_Kursk
0.02287775 Slovakian
0.02486398 Czech
0.02698305 Lithuanian_PA
0.02699186 Moldovan_o
0.03107363 Lithuanian_VA
0.03131693 Russian_Tver
0.03185404 German_East

2) Similarly, some migration era and early medieval samples from Moravia- a site of particular importance to early EAJs- had profiles similar to Slavs across the Slavic world, including even Slavs with Baltic-associated genetic drift.

3) Some EAJs do have some small amount of relatively recent convert ancestry from West and East Slavs, as evidenced by several mtDNA lineages that are both nested in Slavic diversity and are only found among EAJs. It could simply be a matter of a founder effect, where the Slavic women who did convert to Judaism were just barely more east-shifted than average and that relatively small difference compounded into the pretty consistent pattern we see with the preference of East Slavic over West Slavic.

4) The difference of fit simply isn't significant either. See:

Target: EAJ
Distance: 0.7220% / 0.00721992
88.2 French_Jew
10.6 Polish
1.2 Han_Sichuan

Target: EAJ
Distance: 0.7062% / 0.00706214
89.0 French_Jew
9.8 Russian_Smolensk
1.2 Han_Sichuan


So Ashkenazi colonialism will have to stay for now ;)

Now, try to Ashkenazisplain away H40b in EAJ. Is it not East Slavic?

Israelite_Wolfman
06-09-2021, 08:20 AM
I'll just point you to the fact there were large scale migrations of Eastern European Jews to Central and Western Europe in the last ~4 Centuries. IF You really want to know what the historic Ashkenazi Jews of France and Germany were genetically, Archaeogenetics is your tool.

Erikl86
06-09-2021, 11:57 AM
The main evidence (or really, logic) cited against a majority WAJ-derived ancestry for EAJs is the so-called "demographic miracle," where some simply cannot believe that Jews from German and West Slavic lands could be mathematically grown their population to the extent of the known population of EAJs in the early modern period. While I do acknowledge the huge growth that must have occurred at this time, I also believe that demographic estimates of historical populations are extremely difficult to make and are often overturned when new, outside evidence is found, just as few of us believe the myth of all Ashkenazim deriving from only 350 people living in the high-to-late medieval period. Relative to these historical demographic estimates, the above evidences can actually be trusted insofar as they show the actual relative sizes of these ancestral components of EAJs.

I would love to hear any argument against these evidences or my conclusion, and I'd also would appreciate any other evidences in favor of my conclusions that I didn't mention here. Hoping for a fun and substantive debate that (hopefully) won't devolve into a Khazarian mess. Cheers!

Excellent post and thread ! I'll add my additional inputs later on, but will just add that as for the "demographic miracle" often pointed out as being impossible without some shady mysterious pre-existing substantial East European Jewish community which has been "Ashkenazied" by West European Ashkenazim, it's actually turned out to not be so impossible. I suggest to read the following study “The Chosen Many: Population Growth and Jewish Childcare in Central-Eastern Europe, 1500-1930” (https://sapir.tau.ac.il/sites/economy.tau.ac.il/files/media_server/Economics/Sapir/papers/%D7%A6%D7%91%D7%99%D7%A7%D7%94%20%D7%90%D7%A7%D7%A 9%D7%98%D7%99%D7%99%D7%9F_%20%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%9B%D7 %9F_%204-16.pdf) by Botticini, Eckstein and Vaturi, 2016.

It really goes to great details on precisely how this took place.

jkotl0327
06-09-2021, 12:21 PM
I'll just point you to the fact there were large scale migrations of Eastern European Jews to Central and Western Europe in the last ~4 Centuries. IF You really want to know what the historic Ashkenazi Jews of France and Germany were genetically, Archaeogenetics is your tool.

a) The backmigration of EAJ east -> west was certainly impactful, but not to the extent of the original Ashkenazi migration to the East. A very large number of Ashkenazi migrants absorbing a relatively tiny East Knanic population is not the same as a steady flow of EAJ who assimilated into WAJ communities to some degree. The population of WAJ Jews was still much larger than the number of EAJ Jews migrating west, so a distinct WAJ genetic profile is still distinguishable for most of the individuals we have. We also have Alsatian Jewish samples now, which you can see the coordinates for in the Jewish populations G25 thread, and as the Alsatian Jewish community was relatively isolated from this EAJ backmigration, we now have a good idea of the genetic profile of WAJs without significant recent EAJ admixture. Finally, this backmigration does not negate the evidence that before it took place Ashkenazim migrated east of Poland and nearly totally displaced East Knanim, reply I mentioned here:


Your implication is not supported by historical and genetic evidence. Firstly, the historical.

45097

1569 is around when larger-scale Ashkenazi migration to regions east of Poland began. This gives the population of 4 major regions where Ukrainian Jews lived. You yourself mention 10,000 Jews in Lithuania. I wasn't able to find anything on Roth's numbers but perhaps you can link it. 230,000 as the pre-Ashkenazi population of Eastern European Jewry in 1500 seems like a massive stretch, especially since you then go on to say that there were 5000 "pre-Ashkenazim" in Poland and 10,000 in Lithuania around the same time. Considering there was no mass casualty or migration event for Eastern European Jewry during the 1400s on the scale that would be required to go from a population of 230,000 to a few tens of thousands, and that most historical sources favor the smaller figure, I don't think we should seriously consider this 230,000 figure for an East Knanic population (or East Knanim and others considering there were also relatively few "others" at that time). Most sources, including the one I attached, suggest a large population increase during the 1600s fueled by migration from Ashkenazim in the West. The population could not have increased so rapidly barring massive Ashkenazi migration, completely overwhelming the few remaining East Knanim culturally and genetically. I am well aware that East Knanim speaking slavic languages are attested to in the early 1600s, but that is precisely because by then they were becoming a rarity.

We also cannot ignore the Khmelnitsky massacres of 1648. in Ukraine, where a large proportion of the remaining East Knanim lived, all Jewish communities east of the Dnieper River where destroyed. In the regions of Podolia, Bessarabia and Kiev, there was almost no continuity either. These easternmost regions of Ukraine would've been the most highly concentrated with East Knanim at the time. All of this points to a relatively minor contribution from the few remaining East Knanim post-Khmelnytsky to Eastern Ashkenazi populations, as opposed to Western Ashkenazim, who migrated east of Poland in rather massive numbers all the way until 1750.

Now to the genetics. mot many people believe 350 Ashkenazim gave birth to all European Jews because the Ashkenazi population was probably never that low. All Ashkenazim, western and eastern share uniparentals at frequencies that no other Jewish groups are known to. The most prominent case of this is the "big 4" mtDNAs, K1a1b1a, N1b1b, K2a2a, and K1a9. Autosomally both groups are incredibly similar as well. All the evidence points against a large East Knani component in Eastern Ashkenazim. Western and Eastern Ashkenazi Jews are part of the same Jewish sub-culture and sub-ethnicity, so it's fair to refer to both as Ashkenazi.



I asked for a link because I couldn't find it, not looking for citations. think I may have realized what's going on here. Has it occurred to you that Cecil Roth may have been including Poland in his population estimates for Eastern European Jews? Poland was in fact accepting Jews in decent numbers since the 1200s, in any case by 1500 Poland, or more accurately what is today modern Poland sans Galicia, would've been Ashkenazi over East Knanic by a large majority. These happen to be Bernard Weinryb, not Dubnov's numbers, but similar numbers are provided by almost every mainstream Jewish historian worth his salt. There is no clear link between any small Jewish communities during the 2nd and 3rd centuries, and modern Eastern European Jews. It is unlikely that Khazars or other Byzantine Jews pre-1500 make up a large proportion of Eastern Ashkenazi ancestry because by the time Ashkenazim arrived on the scene, they would have lost their distinct identity and all been East Knanim, who as I already explained, make up a very small percentage of Eastern Ashkenazi ancestry. Eastern European Jews did not give up our "real history" for a "quality seal," ignoring the historic and genetic evidence that Eastern Ashkenazim originate largely from Western Ashkenazim doesn't make that the case. The continuity you're thinking of simply isn't there. Your oversimplification of Ashkenazi history notwithstanding, since as you say that's not what the topic is about, any "Southern Russian" component in Ashkenazim is incredibly minor, putting that phrase in as a highlight in a one sentence history of Eastern Ashkenazim is not warranted. @moderator since there's a thread for this subject now can my post be moved there? Thank you.



The situations clearly did not have the same outcome. There are a variety of reasons for this. For one, East Knanim were the earlier population of Jews there. They didn't have the experience of migrating and all settling in a few relatively defined areas, they lived in small, disparate communities throughout Eastern Europe. Secondly, we can go back to the religious prestige point, or as you called it, "quality seal". Just as Sefardim were viewed as the religiously prestigious population, so were Ashkenazim, East Knanim had no reason not to assimilate into the greater Ashkenazi population unlike the case with Sefardim and Mizrachim, the difference is that the East Knanim were a much, much smaller population than the Ashkenazim which was not the case for Mizrachim. Thirdly, the Khmelnytsky massacres played a role. A lot of the communities that were likely majority Knanic were destroyed in the massacres, and places with both Ashkenazi and Knanic populations possibly living in distinct communities were uprooted. The situation created tens of thousands of refugees, and saw a massive reorganization of communities, as well as more large-scale migration from Ashkenazim West -> East in the decades afterwards. This shared experience of communal disruption for those Ashkenazim and Knanim greatly killed off already dying cultural distinctions between the two. The refugees from Ukraine not only resettled there in reorganized communities, but formed entirely new communities in the North (Belarus and Lithuania) where there was no evidence post-1648 of such cultural distinctions, as well as Ottoman Turkey and Western Ashkenaz (Germany/Poland), we certainly don't here of distinct Knanic communities there. You're trying to compare two situations that have aren't at all analogous to one another, shaped by widely differing circumstances.

Israelite_Wolfman
06-09-2021, 12:44 PM
You can't call the Eastern European Jews who preceded the Ashkenazim "tiny" (just out of POV biases) as you never bothered to study their demographics nor conducted Archaeogenetic studies on the topic. End of tale.

leorcooper19
06-09-2021, 12:57 PM
I'll just point you to the fact there were large scale migrations of Eastern European Jews to Central and Western Europe in the last ~4 Centuries.

Yes there were indeed migration of Jews from Poland and lands east to Germany, but are you suggesting that EAJs completely demographically replaced older WAJs? If so, why:
1) are Western Ashkenazim consistently more Sephardi-like and less Slavic-like than Eastern Ashkenazim?
2) do Western Ashkenazim have a unique uniparental profile, which cannot be the result of genetic drift if these migrations were "large scale" enough to demographically replace the older Jews of the region?
3) do Western Ashkenazim speak a unique dialect- Western Yiddish- that is already known from late medieval records?

If you want to read some legit scholarship on the subject of migration of EAJs to the west during the 17th century, I recommend checking out Rescue the Surviving Souls by Adam Teller and Between Remembrance and Denial by Joel Raba. Both go into the demographic and socio-cultural aspects of this migration, and both agree that this migration was limited to Germany. Why then, might you ask, are French Jews from Alsace so similar to German Jews? Makes you wonder.


IF You really want to know what the historic Ashkenazi Jews of France and Germany were genetically, Archaeogenetics is your tool.

As much as I'd love high medieval samples of Jews from across Europe (and the world!), we have our own form of "archaeogenetics" that I referenced in my OP. The combination of high-coverage Y-DNA phylogeny with trusted old pedigrees of rabbinical families in Germany, France, and the Czech Republic has revealed an extremely clear set of connections that confirms several specific subclades of the large Ashkenazi Y-DNA lineages as coming from Germany and surrounding lands.

I'll give two examples from the WIRTH (J-L556) Project, for which I am an admin at FTDNA. The pedigreed families of Weil (https://jewsoffrankfurt.com/family-trees/j2a4b1-bacharach-treves-weil-wertheimer/weil/) and Bacharach (https://jewsoffrankfurt.com/family-trees/j2a4b1-bacharach-treves-weil-wertheimer/bacharach/) have been found to be in J-Y20399 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y20339/) and J-Y13373 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y13373/) respectively.

J-L556 makes up around 4.5% of Eastern Ashkenazi Y-chromosomes. J-Y13373 makes up around 0.6% of Eastern Ashkenazi Y-chromosomes, descending from Rabbi Isaac Bacharach of Lauchheim, who was born around 1495 CE. J-Y20399 itself is only confirmed in one a few Eastern Ashkenazi Jews so far- but- it is only one SNP downstream J-Y13511, which contains 2.5% of Eastern Ashkenazi Y-chromosomes. That means the MRCA of J-Y13511 lived only approximately a century or two before Rabbi Yaakov ben Yehuda Weil, the MRCA of J-Y20399, who was born in c. 1385 CE in Weil der Stadt, Germany.

These totals may not seem like a lot, but there are over a dozen more example of trusted old pedigrees that have undergone Y-DNA testing and found to make up similar rates of Eastern Ashkenazim, such as:
1) The Shapiro family in R-FGC14600
2) The Guggenheim-Heilpronn family in G-Y12975
3) The Oppenheim(er) family in Q-Y2200
4) The Horowitz, Oettingen, and Goldschimdt families in R-Y2619
5) The family of the Maharal in E-BY7521
6) The Ginzburg and Rothschild families in J-Y15223
7) The family of Meir of Rothenburg in R-Y19847
8) The Luria family in E-Y32552

... and so on.

leorcooper19
06-09-2021, 01:13 PM
Now, try to Ashkenazisplain away H40b in EAJ. Is it not East Slavic?

H40b- a lineage that makes up around 1.1% of Eastern Ashkenazi mtDNAs (including my paternal grandfather)- does indeed have several connections to the "eastern route", such as the only other known carriers being medieval samples from multiple sites in the southern Urals and being absent in WAJs. However, on FTDNA, I can see that 27.7% of the Ashkenazi matches actually hail from Poland, suggesting that even if it is East Slavic, it's not somehow unique to far eastern AJs.

Either way, the existence of East Slavic or other eastern-route uniparentals do not disprove the majority-descent from WAJs for EAJs, but it is exactly their relative rarity that proves them to be exceptions to that general rule.

leorcooper19
06-09-2021, 01:22 PM
Are you sure you're not Ashkenazi?

Actually, I'm beginning to think that despite all the evidence, this would require a demographic miracle to explain. Thinking of changing my ethnicity to "Kna'ani & British"...

grumpydaddybear
06-09-2021, 01:35 PM
What's amazing is that I have not heard the term "Kna'anim" before today. Can someone provide more info on usage and history?

Thank you

StillWater
06-09-2021, 01:48 PM
What's amazing is that I have not heard the term "Kna'anim" before today. Can someone provide more info on usage and history?

Thank you

https://brill.com/view/book/edcoll/9789004216440/B9789004216440-s011.xml

https://www.jstor.org/stable/43298777?seq=1

In general, Kulik is the most extensive resource on East K'naanim, the ones being discussed in this thread.

See also this: https://avotaynuonline.com/2020/03/contested-origins-of-eastern-european-jewry-clues-from-history-linguistics-and-onomastics/

As a reminder, this thread is about East K'naanim - those in East Slavic/Baltic lands.

StillWater
06-09-2021, 01:53 PM
Items to further explore in this thread:

1. Autosomal profile of East K'naanim (the East Asian % is bound to be interesting)
2. Origin of East K'naanim.
3. Determining which Jewish groups have the most East K'naanic ancestry.
4. Discussing other clades that are potentially from East K'naanim.
5. Listing historical evidence.
6. Listing cultural, linguistic items still present from East K'naanim.

StillWater
06-09-2021, 02:05 PM
H40b- a lineage that makes up around 1.1% of Eastern Ashkenazi mtDNAs (including my paternal grandfather)- does indeed have several connections to the "eastern route", such as the only other known carriers being medieval samples from multiple sites in the southern Urals and being absent in WAJs. However, on FTDNA, I can see that 27.7% of the Ashkenazi matches actually hail from Poland, suggesting that even if it is East Slavic, it's not somehow unique to far eastern AJs.

Either way, the existence of East Slavic or other eastern-route uniparentals do not disprove the majority-descent from WAJs for EAJs, but it is exactly their relative rarity that proves them to be exceptions to that general rule.

This is only true now. Let's return to this in 2 generations when East K'naanic genes make their awaited return.

leorcooper19
06-09-2021, 02:48 PM
Items to further explore in this thread:

1. Autosomal profile of East K'naanim (the East Asian % is bound to be interesting)
2. Origin of East K'naanim.
3. Determining which Jewish groups have the most East K'naanic ancestry.
4. Discussing other clades that are potentially from East K'naanim.
5. Listing historical evidence.
6. Listing cultural, linguistic items still present from East K'naanim.

I'll get started with my guesses for the first few.

1) If the average EAJ is only, say, 3-5% East Kna'anic, and if their 1-2% East Asian component is solely derived from East Kna'anim, then it doesn't take a lot of brain power to realize that East Kna'anim may have been anywhere from 20-50% East Asian! Despite my strong belief in these base numbers, I have to admit that I find these high, extrapolated rates hard to believe. But, does that mean it's impossible? Not at all.

Besides this component, I do think it's also likely that East Kna'anim were had a higher West_Asian component relative to their East_Med components, using Eurogenes K13 terminology as you yourself have first noticed.

2) I believe there are three sources for the origins of East Kna'anim:
- Western Rabbinical Jews- specifically Romaniote Jews of Greece/southern Balkans/Anatolia- as evidenced by the historical connection between the Jewry of "Yevan" (Greece) and "Knaan" (Slavic-speaking Europe).
- Eastern Rabbinical Jews- specifically Jews of the Caucasus- as evidenced by shared clades like HV1b2 and R-FGC13201.
- Karaite Jews- specifically Crimean Karaites and their descendant populations in Western Ukraine and, especially, Lithuania- as evidenced by the known connection and intermarriage (albeit uncommon) between Karaites and Rabbinical Jews in Eastern Europe.

3) It's probably Litvaks, mainly because their profile is one that a) was subject to a clear founder effect that b) was neither wiped out during the Khmelnitsky massacres as others were, nor was then opened up to further migration (and effective homogeneity) from Poylishers and Galitzianers. But, while there do indeed seem to be consistent differences between Litvaks and other EAJs, they are still >95% the same exact population.

4) Other than I-Y23115, R-FGC13211, G-FGC1093, HV1b2, and M33c2, other clades that may be East Kna'anic are:
- N9a3, which has a similar size to M33c2 and is similarly absent from Western Ashkenazim. Close matches to Ashkenazi N9a3 include Chinese, Chechen, and Ingush individuals.
- J-FGC30508, which has a young TMRCA of only c. 1350 CE, basal Jews from southern Italy and Greece, and only one German Jew from Bavaria known downstream.
- G-Z44224, which is very similar to G-FGC1093 in its age, spread, and size, although is tentatively lacking a close "anchor" to the eastern route.
- I-BY424, which is quite young, almost entirely EAJ, and may be close to a known Juhuri from 23andMe
- R-YP6547*, which while having some downstream participants from Italy, is mainly EAJ and is nested in R-Z93 Steppe diversity.
- J-FGC75679, which is entirely Eastern Ashkenazi and is similarly mostly Litvak.
- G-L201, which has a similar size, spread, and size to the other G clades mentioned above except is likely ultimately Judaean, as opposed to North Caucasian like the others.
- HV5a, which has a low rate of WAJs (5.5%), and has a similar spread to HV1b2 (yet is not found in Romaniote or Juhuri communities as HV1b2 is)

Looking forward to further additions from others for #5 and 6.

leorcooper19
06-09-2021, 05:11 PM
The sum of the aforementioned lineages, by the way, is 5.19% of Ashkenazi Y-chromosomes and 4.71% of Ashkenazi mtDNAs (excluding HV5a, which I believe is more likely tied in some way to Czech Jewry than East Kna'anim).

jkotl0327
06-09-2021, 05:17 PM
You can't call the Eastern European Jews who preceded the Ashkenazim "tiny" (just out of POV biases) as you never bothered to study their demographics nor conducted Archaeogenetic studies on the topic. End of tale.

I provided you with clearly sourced evidence on the demographics of pre-Ashkenazi E. Euro Jewry right here in this thread that shows that their population was in fact "tiny", compared to Ashkenazi migrant populations, so no, not "just out of POV biases". For my explanation of the Khmelnytsky massacres and how the last remnants of Knanic Jewry were destroyed or integrated into the Ashkenazi population with that event, you can find all the same information in Adam Teller's book, Rescue the Surviving Souls, great read on the massacres. It's time to stop ignoring every piece of evidence I provided and making unsubstantiated claims.

hartaisarlag
06-09-2021, 05:50 PM
You can't call the Eastern European Jews who preceded the Ashkenazim "tiny" (just out of POV biases) as you never bothered to study their demographics nor conducted Archaeogenetic studies on the topic. End of tale.

Did you catch my post on the other thread? Just for some perspective on genetic distance in this context:

Distance to: Ashkenazi_Germany
0.01625140 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.01789883 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.01812899 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.02028566 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.02127231 Ashkenazi_Russia

---

Distance to: Moroccan_Jew
0.03306568 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.04136263 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.04362489 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.04433798 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.04512110 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.04600331 Ashkenazi_Russia
0.07925777 Iraqi_Jew

Israelite_Wolfman
06-09-2021, 07:08 PM
I provided you with clearly sourced evidence on the demographics of pre-Ashkenazi E. Euro Jewry right here in this thread that shows that their population was in fact "tiny", compared to Ashkenazi migrant populations, so no, not "just out of POV biases". For my explanation of the Khmelnytsky massacres and how the last remnants of Knanic Jewry were destroyed or integrated into the Ashkenazi population with that event, you can find all the same information in Adam Teller's book, Rescue the Surviving Souls, great read on the massacres. It's time to stop ignoring every piece of evidence I provided and making unsubstantiated claims.

Again: your reliance on Dubnov's assumptions won't make it real. I have an Archaeology degree; if there's something I can detect from far away is farfetched theories without material evidence.

Israelite_Wolfman
06-09-2021, 07:10 PM
Did you catch my post on the other thread? Just for some perspective on genetic distance in this context:

Distance to: Ashkenazi_Germany
0.01625140 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.01789883 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.01812899 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.02028566 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.02127231 Ashkenazi_Russia

---

Distance to: Moroccan_Jew
0.03306568 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.04136263 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.04362489 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.04433798 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.04512110 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.04600331 Ashkenazi_Russia
0.07925777 Iraqi_Jew

There were migrations from Eastern European Jewish communities (whom I doubt were Ashkenazi genetically as a whole; 30% at best) to the Western side of the continent; ignoring that it lasted for 4 centuries long and impacted on the modern Central and Western European Jews communities is a big problem.

jkotl0327
06-09-2021, 07:14 PM
Again: your reliance on Dubnov's assumptions won't make it real. I have an Archaeology degree; if there's something I can detect from far away is farfetched theories without material evidence.

I've provided you with multiple sources, none of them Dubnov. The sources of my information include Weinryb, Teller, and Sysyn. If you aren't going to provide historical evidence to support your points, or refute mine, then you aren't making an argument.

Israelite_Wolfman
06-09-2021, 07:15 PM
I've provided you with multiple sources, none of them Dubnov. The sources of my information include Weinryb, Teller, and Sysyn. If you aren't going to provide historical evidence to support your points, or refute mine, then you aren't making an argument.

They're relaying on Dubnov; he was the pioneer of Eastern European Jewish History.

I need to see actual skeletons from the 15th Century historic Ashkenazi Diaspora and from the 16th Century from around Eastern Europe to see if the two parts of the continent collide.

jkotl0327
06-09-2021, 07:22 PM
They're relaying on Dubnov; he was the pioneer of Eastern European Jewish History. I need actual skeletons from the 15th Century historic Ashkenaz and the 16th Century from around Eastern Europe to see if the two parts of the continent collide.

Actually they're mostly relying on Ettinger. But that's beside the point because rather than refuting Dubnov's claims and explaining your opposition to him, or Ettinger, you are just making blanket statements like: "I find Shimon Dubnov's ridiculously low demographics for the Jews in Eastern Europe totally made up" which you said on the Mizrachi thread. Historical sources should suffice in absence of actual skeletons. You're telling me you don't believe historical sources and only archaeology or genetics? What is the argument here?

Israelite_Wolfman
06-09-2021, 07:23 PM
Actually they're mostly relying on Ettinger. But that's beside the point because rather than refuting Dubnov's claims and explaining your opposition to him, or Ettinger, you are just making blanket statements like: "I find Shimon Dubnov's ridiculously low demographics for the Jews in Eastern Europe totally made up" which you said on the Mizrachi thread. Historical sources should suffice in absence of actual skeletons. You're telling me you don't believe historical sources and only archaeology or genetics? What is the argument here?

Where are the census numbers then? I want to see the historic documents. All these late assumptions aren't valid. Dubnov brought the "only 30,000 Jews lived in all of Eastern Europe before the Ashkenazim got there" myth. Even my alma mater, the Hebrew University, rely on that. *facepalm*

leorcooper19
06-09-2021, 07:34 PM
Where are the census numbers then? I want to see the historic documents. All these late assumptions aren't valid. Dubnov brought the "only 30,000 Jews lived in all of Eastern Europe before the Ashkenazim got there" myth. Even my alma mater, the Hebrew University, rely on that. *facepalm*

Hey, still waiting on any kind of response on the evidence I brought in. If you don't understand it, just ask for clarification; I'd be happy to explain.

jkotl0327
06-09-2021, 07:36 PM
Where are the census numbers then? All these late assumptions aren't valid. Dubnov brought the "only 30,000 Jews lived in all of Eastern Europe before the Ashkenazim got there" myth. Even my alma mater, the Hebrew University, rely on that. *Edit: Emoji of facepalm*

These aren't late assumptions. They are based on clear evidence from contemporary sources. Want to read how they got to that figure? Please, here you go:

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1022330717763

Read Stampfer's summary of the methodology behind Ettinger and Weinryb's numbers.

By the way, maybe if your alma mater relies on these numbers, there might be something to them?

Israelite_Wolfman
06-09-2021, 07:38 PM
Hey, still waiting on any kind of response on the evidence I brought in. If you don't understand it, just ask for clarification; I'd be happy to explain.

Sadly I'm not near any computer fir the nearby future, I read your comments. When I'd be able to address them thoroughly I would, my friend.

Israelite_Wolfman
06-09-2021, 07:40 PM
These aren't late assumptions. They are based on clear evidence from contemporary sources. Want to read how they got to that figure? Please, here you go:

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1022330717763

Read Stampfer's summary of the methodology behind Ettinger and Weinryb's numbers.

By the way, maybe if your alma mater relies on these numbers, there might be something to them?

An abstract of an academic paper isn't an **ACTUAL HISTORIC DOCUMENT**. I want to see such, scanned!
About the numbers, I wouldn't be counting on that. Like many others, you may heard of, they are horny to claim that "all the Jews of Europe are Ashkenazim"; "prestige" and stuff to claim that "**allegedly** they once lived in Germany and France".

jkotl0327
06-09-2021, 07:43 PM
An abstract of an academic paper isn't an **ACTUAL HISTORIC DOCUMENT**. I want to see such, scanned!
About the numbers, I wouldn't be counting on that. Like many others they are horny to claim that "all the Jews of Europe are Ashkenazim"; "prestige" and stuff to claim they once lived in Germany and France.

I never claimed that this was an actual historic document. I said that in the paper (you accessing the full version can't possibly be my responsibility) the methods for calculating the numbers are detailed, and so are the historical sources they derive from. I'm not about to scan anything for you. Everyone here has provided you with plenty of resources. Maybe it's time to hit the books.

Israelite_Wolfman
06-09-2021, 07:47 PM
I never claimed that this was an actual historic document. I said that in the paper (you accessing the full version can't possibly be my responsibility) the methods for calculating the numbers are detailed, and so are the historical sources they derive from. I'm not about to scan anything for you. Everyone here has provided you with plenty of resources. Maybe it's time to hit the books.

Oh for the love of God. I asked for an historic document/s with census numbers to be scanned! Not these modern assumption paper/s. Another theory won't solve this issue overtly. I believe I'll take off now.

jkotl0327
06-09-2021, 07:49 PM
Oh for the love of God. I asked for an historic document/s with census numbers to be scanned! Not these modern assumption paper/s. Another theory won't solve this issue overtly. I believe I'll take off now.

Historical documents with numbers referenced in the paper, as well as an explanation of how they are extrapolated to achieve the solid figures we are discussing. Read the paper.

hartaisarlag
06-09-2021, 08:02 PM
Oh for the love of God. I asked for an historic document/s with census numbers to be scanned! Not these modern assumption paper/s. Another theory won't solve this issue overtly. I believe I'll take off now.

Why does the burden of proof fall entirely on us?

Demographic history isn’t a hard science, so the evidence we bring to the table is going to be, admittedly, imperfect and indirect. That’s the best anyone can do until they’ve tested hundreds of Jewish skeletons from medieval Europe.

In any case, there was a wider berth for your arguments before the genetic data were in. Your use of the Hammer paper on substructure between Western and Eastern Ashkenazim - but refusal to then accept the use of Alsatian and German Jews as rough proxies for original Western Ashkenazim, rather than merely descendants of East -> West migrants - boggles the mind.

Then, we present to you evidence against your initial, strong claim that Western and Eastern Ashkenazim are more dissimilar genetically than Moroccan Jews are to Iraqi Jews. This conclusion is mathematical, and stands irrespective of other arguments about the origins of Eastern Ashkenazim.

Finally, and I think most persuasively, the original poster has marshaled evidence that most of the largest Y-DNA branches among Eastern Ashkenazim trace back to Germany, the Rhineland specifically - and have Western Ashkenazi bearers whose pedigrees go back to 13th to 15th century Germany. *Not* late backmigrants!

I’d be impressed if you could put together a comparably strong circumstantial case for your view that Eastern European Jews are not mostly Ashkenazic in origin, but so far, you seem to be acting as though that should be treated as the null hypothesis, with the burden of proof entirely on us to refute it. Please, it’s your turn.

Riverman
06-11-2021, 09:50 AM
...that most of the largest Y-DNA branches among Eastern Ashkenazim trace back to Germany, the Rhineland specifically - and have Western Ashkenazi bearers whose pedigrees go back to 13th to 15th century Germany.

Digging deeper, is there a newer effort of giving percentages to the different clades and subclades among Ashkenazim and their respective origin in time and space? We get new results almost on a daily basis from both Ashkenazi males and from other people in the same haplogroups. Just asking if anybody had made such an effort recently, with newer data and down to the subclades?

leorcooper19
06-11-2021, 08:34 PM
Digging deeper, is there a newer effort of giving percentages to the different clades and subclades among Ashkenazim and their respective origin in time and space? We get new results almost on a daily basis from both Ashkenazi males and from other people in the same haplogroups. Just asking if anybody had made such an effort recently, with newer data and down to the subclades?

Yes, myself several other members here have been working on just that. If you have any specific questions just ask, if not stay tuned to the Jewish section for an announcement within a month or two.

hartaisarlag
06-12-2021, 01:38 AM
Yes, myself several other members here have been working on just that. If you have any specific questions just ask, if not stay tuned to the Jewish section for an announcement within a month or two.

^ What he said.

AbideInLove
06-12-2021, 04:45 AM
My own mtDNA could possess some real world likelihood of being Kna’anim. What do we guess as the most likely origins of this group? I know they’re not very well attested. Byzantine Jews?

Chad Rohlfsen
06-12-2021, 05:46 AM
I'll volunteer my services here. I have an interest in this anyway with my grandmother's mom coming from Jews in Pommern. Most of my Jewish matches are from much further east.

If someone would like to share Jewish genomes with me, I'll analyze the hell out of it.

leorcooper19
06-12-2021, 12:21 PM
My own mtDNA could possess some real world likelihood of being Kna’anim. What do we guess as the most likely origins of this group? I know they’re not very well attested. Byzantine Jews?

N1b1b1 actually is most likely derived from Rhenish Jewry; in FTDNA match lists we can see it has an above-average rate of WAJs in the lineage itself, and in Costa et al. 2013's random sampling of Western and Eastern Ashkenazim, they found that N1b1b1 (called N1b2 in their paper) appears at a rate of 14.3% and 8.8% respectively. This is a very similar result to K1a1b1a, which goes from 34.3% to 18.7% among Western and Eastern Ashkenazi Jews respectively. If the lineage was Kna'ani, we would expect it to peak in the east, not the west.

In terms of the ultimate origins, the likeliest is, as you said, a connection to the wider Byzantine Jewish world. This probably entails connections to several specific medieval communities, including those in Greece and those in the Caucasus.

leorcooper19
06-12-2021, 12:24 PM
I'll volunteer my services here. I have an interest in this anyway with my grandmother's mom coming from Jews in Pommern. Most of my Jewish matches are from much further east.

If someone would like to share Jewish genomes with me, I'll analyze the hell out of it.

Awesome!! This is great; I've always wanted to see some Admixtools analysis for Ashkenazim.

What is the file format you need? There are country-coded Ashkenazi samples from Germany, Poland, Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine, and Russia in G25; I assume whatever raw genotype data David used to convert to G25 would work for your needs?

Chad Rohlfsen
06-12-2021, 03:10 PM
Awesome!! This is great; I've always wanted to see some Admixtools analysis for Ashkenazim.

What is the file format you need? There are country-coded Ashkenazi samples from Germany, Poland, Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine, and Russia in G25; I assume whatever raw genotype data David used to convert to G25 would work for your needs?

Yup! Any individuals with 23andme can toss theirs in too. Let's get a project rolling.

AbideInLove
06-12-2021, 03:25 PM
N1b1b1 actually is most likely derived from Rhenish Jewry; in FTDNA match lists we can see it has an above-average rate of WAJs in the lineage itself, and in Costa et al. 2013's random sampling of Western and Eastern Ashkenazim, they found that N1b1b1 (called N1b2 in their paper) appears at a rate of 14.3% and 8.8% respectively. This is a very similar result to K1a1b1a, which goes from 34.3% to 18.7% among Western and Eastern Ashkenazi Jews respectively. If the lineage was Kna'ani, we would expect it to peak in the east, not the west.

In terms of the ultimate origins, the likeliest is, as you said, a connection to the wider Byzantine Jewish world. This probably entails connections to several specific medieval communities, including those in Greece and those in the Caucasus.

Oh wow, I had not even Really consider a west-east origin of my subclade, but with all you've pointed out, it totally makes sense. I've never tested with FTDNA, but did a little bit of more digging and indeed. Thanks, friend.

Erikl86
06-12-2021, 04:08 PM
Yup! Any individuals with 23andme can toss theirs in too. Let's get a project rolling.

Awesome - where to? A specific email or your website's contact?

Chad Rohlfsen
06-12-2021, 05:51 PM
Awesome - where to? A specific email or your website's contact?

[email protected]

Chad Rohlfsen
06-12-2021, 10:09 PM
Should we start a new thread for this?

leorcooper19
06-12-2021, 10:59 PM
Should we start a new thread for this?

Sure! I imagine (and hope) the findings will go beyond the question of the East Kna'anic component.

Naffi
06-15-2021, 07:32 PM
I have seen german jews with mtdna HV1b2
also Would you know anything about H1e4a

leorcooper19
06-15-2021, 08:33 PM
I have seen german jews with mtdna HV1b2

They definitely do have it, it's just that it is found at a much lower rate among WAJs than among EAJs. That, combined with its representation among Romaniotes and Juhurim, makes me think it has an above-average chance at being East Kna'anic.


also Would you know anything about H1e4a

H1e4a was estimated by Wim Penninx to be the 11th largest Ashkenazi mtDNA lineage, found at a "global" rate of 1.84%. On FTDNA, approximately 1/8 of Ashkenazim in the match list hail from Germany, which is an above-average rate. H1e4a is very likely ultimately non-Mediterranean European, and given it was very possibly found among medieval Rhenish Jews based on its WAJ rate, an origin in a Western/Central European (probably Germanic-speaking) woman is likelier than a Slavic one.

Erikl86
06-19-2021, 09:06 PM
I'll get started with my guesses for the first few.

1) If the average EAJ is only, say, 3-5% East Kna'anic, and if their 1-2% East Asian component is solely derived from East Kna'anim, then it doesn't take a lot of brain power to realize that East Kna'anim may have been anywhere from 20-50% East Asian! Despite my strong belief in these base numbers, I have to admit that I find these high, extrapolated rates hard to believe. But, does that mean it's impossible? Not at all.

Besides this component, I do think it's also likely that East Kna'anim were had a higher West_Asian component relative to their East_Med components, using Eurogenes K13 terminology as you yourself have first noticed.


2) I believe there are three sources for the origins of East Kna'anim:
- Western Rabbinical Jews- specifically Romaniote Jews of Greece/southern Balkans/Anatolia- as evidenced by the historical connection between the Jewry of "Yevan" (Greece) and "Knaan" (Slavic-speaking Europe).
- Eastern Rabbinical Jews- specifically Jews of the Caucasus- as evidenced by shared clades like HV1b2 and R-FGC13201.
- Karaite Jews- specifically Crimean Karaites and their descendant populations in Western Ukraine and, especially, Lithuania- as evidenced by the known connection and intermarriage (albeit uncommon) between Karaites and Rabbinical Jews in Eastern Europe.

3) It's probably Litvaks, mainly because their profile is one that a) was subject to a clear founder effect that b) was neither wiped out during the Khmelnitsky massacres as others were, nor was then opened up to further migration (and effective homogeneity) from Poylishers and Galitzianers. But, while there do indeed seem to be consistent differences between Litvaks and other EAJs, they are still >95% the same exact population.

4) Other than I-Y23115, R-FGC13211, G-FGC1093, HV1b2, and M33c2, other clades that may be East Kna'anic are:
- N9a3, which has a similar size to M33c2 and is similarly absent from Western Ashkenazim. Close matches to Ashkenazi N9a3 include Chinese, Chechen, and Ingush individuals.
- J-FGC30508, which has a young TMRCA of only c. 1350 CE, basal Jews from southern Italy and Greece, and only one German Jew from Bavaria known downstream.
- G-Z44224, which is very similar to G-FGC1093 in its age, spread, and size, although is tentatively lacking a close "anchor" to the eastern route.
- I-BY424, which is quite young, almost entirely EAJ, and may be close to a known Juhuri from 23andMe
- R-YP6547*, which while having some downstream participants from Italy, is mainly EAJ and is nested in R-Z93 Steppe diversity.
- J-FGC75679, which is entirely Eastern Ashkenazi and is similarly mostly Litvak.
- G-L201, which has a similar size, spread, and size to the other G clades mentioned above except is likely ultimately Judaean, as opposed to North Caucasian like the others.
- HV5a, which has a low rate of WAJs (5.5%), and has a similar spread to HV1b2 (yet is not found in Romaniote or Juhuri communities as HV1b2 is)

Looking forward to further additions from others for #5 and 6.


I don't believe the East Asian admixture and the Kna'anic ancestry are necessarily related - one of the reasons is of course the implications of the amount of E. Asian ancestry.

I kind of agree with you about the three main sources for their origin (Byzantine Romaniote Jews, Mizrahi Jew via Caucasus or even via the Byzantine Empire onto Europe, and Karaite Jews).

Several key things to remember there:

1. The Danube route:

45240

2. We know that by 995 CE, there were already Jews in Prague, thanks to the considered credible accounts of Sephardic (proto-Sephardic?) Rabbi Abraham ben Jacob who travelled there and met with them; he wrote that they arrived from the Byzantine Empire. While Czech Jews do not really subscribe to East Kna'anim, they do subscribe to West Kna'anim, and the fact that we have at least one credible source documenting a Jewish community in Central Europe that early deriving from Byzantine Jewry, is really re-assuring.

3. In the late fourteenth century (circa 1490s), the Lithuanian Principality forcibly resettled people from the northern Black Sea coast, including Karaites who founded a new community in Troki (Trakai). These Jews would undoubtedly have Mizrahi admixture, and Karaite Jews which might have joined Rabbinical Jews over the generations might have contributed some of the elevated West Asian as well. Considered Lithuania and Belarus had an estimated Jewish population of ~1,000 at the time, we're looking at a very substantial founder effect coming from these Black Sea area Jews:

45239

4. Regarding the East Asian admixture - I'd like to consider the fact that East European Jews (I'm talking mainly about Kna'anim) have had the opportunity and access to a vast East Asian empire in the 13th-14th centuries; aka Mongol Empire and it's later West Asian inheritors. This to me means we need to consider slave trade, especially considering the solely maternal nature of the uniparental evidence here. I know one of the most common subclade is M33c2 and is found mostly among South Chinese, which would put the source for that exactly on the opposite side of said empire, but, with cross continental slave trades and routes, one can never know which salves ended up in the markets of Novgorod, marched from Sarai. And considering the powerful founder effect we're dealing with here, it would only take a dozen or so such women early on enough to make an impact.

AbideInLove
06-20-2021, 12:38 AM
N1b1b1 actually is most likely derived from Rhenish Jewry; in FTDNA match lists we can see it has an above-average rate of WAJs in the lineage itself, and in Costa et al. 2013's random sampling of Western and Eastern Ashkenazim, they found that N1b1b1 (called N1b2 in their paper) appears at a rate of 14.3% and 8.8% respectively. This is a very similar result to K1a1b1a, which goes from 34.3% to 18.7% among Western and Eastern Ashkenazi Jews respectively. If the lineage was Kna'ani, we would expect it to peak in the east, not the west.

In terms of the ultimate origins, the likeliest is, as you said, a connection to the wider Byzantine Jewish world. This probably entails connections to several specific medieval communities, including those in Greece and those in the Caucasus.

This just came to mind; I remember for years reading that N1b2 and N1b1b were different subclades...the former as exclusively AJ (also some African horners?) and N1b1b as not particularly Jewish. For what itís worth, 23andme paints my motherís X chromosome as totally Eastern European. I believe all my AJ comes from my maternal grandfather, although it could be both and itís bits from multiple ancestors..

Anyway, something change with the N1b tree? Is now all N1b1b the same as N1b2? Sorry if this is a slightly dumb inquiry..

mri
06-20-2021, 09:04 PM
sorry, was off topic