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Kamo
06-14-2021, 08:47 PM
Hello all. I finally took the plunge and upgraded from 67 markers to the BigY700. I have been advised on more than one occasion to do so and finally did. Not at all certain what this upgrade will add in terms of ancestral research but we shall see. Even at the 67 marker level I have noticed some changes over the past 6 months or so. In the FTDNA ancestral origins pages my percentages from several different places have gone up quite a lot. Particularly Denmark but also Iceland and the Faroes. I was informed back when I first tested(2014) that for whatever reason at that time Danes were not testing as much as people elsewhere in Scandinavia. Either that has changed or the metrics they are using have changed. In any case, the %'s have risen noticeably. Norway and Sweden %'s have remained fairly consistent. My chief questions are; Will the upgrade to the BigY700 create more matches? Will the upgrade change my haplogroup? I of course initially tested as I1-M253. More testing found L813 and more SNP testing found FGC9462. Will the BigY700 test change it still further or will I have to do even more SNP testing? On a side note, one interesting thing I only recently found out is that the largest Viking burial/grave of a single man in the entire British Isles is located in a place called Woodstown which is in Ireland, not England. It was said that Ivarr the Boneless left England for Ireland and he disappears from the record in 874. I wonder if anyone here has any info on that or knows if any research is being done as to that possibly being where Ivarr was buried. Whoever it was must have been very important. I do not know if they found any actual remains in any case.

MacUalraig
06-14-2021, 09:06 PM
A sequencing test is as detailed as you can get so there won't be an upgrade once you have this result in. How much your haplogroup advances is hard to predict because it depends how much more local detail there is, neither of these show anything further for example.


https://yfull.com/tree/I-Y13505/

https://www.yseq.net/images/trees/I1-L22_tree.pdf?date=2020-05-22

Your matching will be more precise and accurate as the STR matches can include false positives. You will probably see a lot less sequencing matches within the lab's system than you did STR matches but if you upload your data to YFull they have wider matching criteria so definitely compare on both sites.

Kamo
06-14-2021, 09:13 PM
"Your matching will be more precise and accurate as the STR matches can include false positives. You will probably see a lot less sequencing matches within the lab's system than you did STR matches but if you upload your data to YFull they have wider matching criteria so definitely compare on both sites."

That sounds great MacUalraig. Thank you for the links. I don't know how busy FTDNA is the moment but I only upgraded to the BigY 2 days ago so I'd guess within a month or so I should have the results back. I have saved those 2 links. Do I create an account on YFull and then upload or is it an anonymous thing?

C J Wyatt III
06-14-2021, 09:16 PM
I think you made the right choice. I am no expert, but having the BigY700 puts you in position to be part of discoveries at any time in the future.

I do not think you will necessarily have new matches from the test, except possibly at the Y111 level. However, you very likely will discover a new terminal SNP with someone currently on your list. That terminal SNP should move up what I call your branching point to a more recent time. You might find something completely unexpected. My match with a person who formed a new terminal SNP with me was only (67,4) in comparing STR's, but not a match at the Y111 level. SNP's are definitely better than STR's in my estimation. Your days of testing individual SNP's are over with if I understand the process correctly. Instead you will be discovering new SNP's as time goes by and others take the BigY700.

Good luck!

Kamo
06-14-2021, 09:18 PM
I think you made the right choice. I am no expert, but having the BigY700 puts you in position to be part of discoveries at any time in the future.

I do not think you will necessarily have new matches from the test, except possibly at the Y111 level. However, you very likely will discover a new terminal SNP with someone currently on your list. That terminal SNP should move up what I call your branching point to a more recent time. You might find something completely unexpected. My match with a person who formed a new terminal SNP with me was only (67,4) in comparing STR's, but not a match at the Y111 level. SNP's are definitely better than STR's in my estimation. Your days of testing individual SNP's are over with if I understand the process correctly. Instead you will be discovering new SNP's as time goes by and others take the BigY700.

Good luck!

Great news. With what little I know about this process I had kinda been wondering if I was going to be testing SNPs until retirement :P

MacUalraig
06-14-2021, 09:19 PM
"Your matching will be more precise and accurate as the STR matches can include false positives. You will probably see a lot less sequencing matches within the lab's system than you did STR matches but if you upload your data to YFull they have wider matching criteria so definitely compare on both sites."

That sounds great MacUalraig. Thank you for the links. I don't know how busy FTDNA is the moment but I only upgraded to the BigY 2 days ago so I'd guess within a month or so I should have the results back. I have saved those 2 links. Do I create an account on YFull and then upload or is it an anonymous thing?

You use their order page at

https://yfull.com/order/

sirdan
06-14-2021, 09:22 PM
Hello Kamo,
There is no need to do more SNP testing. I think You will not see more STR matches. On the other hand, You will be placed in block tree which is more reliable way of match system. I think it is possible to go two SNP levels further right away. For now, to do is wait only for other relatives to test SNP. The I-FGC9462 on FTDNA is Norway mainly for now. You will get Dane relative in the future to make own branch of the tree.

deadly77
06-14-2021, 09:24 PM
Hope you find the results of the Big Y700 informative and useful. To some of your questions:

Will the upgrade to the BigY700 create more matches? Probably not, but in some cases you'll be able to refine the ones that you have as have other options to compare some of the matches that you see at Y67 level as the Big Y700 includes STRs up to Y111, plus additional STRs a pretty comprehensive SNP count. So you may be able to assign some matches as closer and discount some matches as less close.

Will the upgrade change my haplogroup? You'll still be I-M253 as well as I-L813. Big Y700 will confirm this for sure and compare the SNPs of everyone on that branch in the FTDNA database. Where you branch of with your last common SNP or block of phylogenetic SNPs will become your new haplogroup designation.

Will the BigY700 test change it still further or will I have to do even more SNP testing? Follows on from the last one about where you branch off from others in the database. This might be a branch already on the tree, or if you match someone else's novel/private variants, you'll form a new branch with them. The test will also uncover your novel/private SNPs - something that can't be discovered on a SNP test. If someone tests later and they match some of these, you'll form a new branch with them. You shouldn't need to do any more SNP testing - there may be a case that a small number of additional SNP tests may be useful to rule out ambiguous results or check no calls (as the Big Y is an enrichment assay, there are some missed regions) - however, in the most cases this is unlikely to be required.

It very much depends on (i) testing yourself to the highest resolution and (ii) patrilineal related males on your Y chromosome line in the database. You've taken steps on (i) and the results will tell you about (ii). But it's something that has the potential to grow as new people may test in the future. But the Y-DNA database is still rather small so people (including myself) find that their closest Y-DNA match is thousands of years in the past.

As for Ivarr the boneless or the burial site at Woodstone, I have no idea but perhaps someone else does.

Kamo
06-14-2021, 09:31 PM
Hello Kamo,
There is no need to do more SNP testing. I think You will not see more STR matches. On the other hand, You will be placed in block tree which is more reliable way of match system. I think it is possible to go two SNP levels further right away. For now, to do is wait only for other relatives to test SNP. The I-FGC9462 on FTDNA is Norway mainly for now. You will get Dane relative in the future to make own branch of the tree.



Yes, from the very beginning even Ken Nordvedt(sp?) who looked at my results back in 2015 said it was definitely Norwegian in origin. His designation for it was '9 + Ultra Norse' or something along those lines.But since I have a very typical Irish surname, who, when and where from in Norway became my questions.

Kamo
06-14-2021, 09:35 PM
Hope you find the results of the Big Y700 informative and useful. To some of your questions:

Will the upgrade to the BigY700 create more matches? Probably not, but in some cases you'll be able to refine the ones that you have as have other options to compare some of the matches that you see at Y67 level as the Big Y700 includes STRs up to Y111, plus additional STRs a pretty comprehensive SNP count. So you may be able to assign some matches as closer and discount some matches as less close.

Will the upgrade change my haplogroup? You'll still be I-M253 as well as I-L813. Big Y700 will confirm this for sure and compare the SNPs of everyone on that branch in the FTDNA database. Where you branch of with your last common SNP or block of phylogenetic SNPs will become your new haplogroup designation.

Will the BigY700 test change it still further or will I have to do even more SNP testing? Follows on from the last one about where you branch off from others in the database. This might be a branch already on the tree, or if you match someone else's novel/private variants, you'll form a new branch with them. The test will also uncover your novel/private SNPs - something that can't be discovered on a SNP test. If someone tests later and they match some of these, you'll form a new branch with them. You shouldn't need to do any more SNP testing - there may be a case that a small number of additional SNP tests may be useful to rule out ambiguous results or check no calls (as the Big Y is an enrichment assay, there are some missed regions) - however, in the most cases this is unlikely to be required.

It very much depends on (i) testing yourself to the highest resolution and (ii) patrilineal related males on your Y chromosome line in the database. You've taken steps on (i) and the results will tell you about (ii). But it's something that has the potential to grow as new people may test in the future. But the Y-DNA database is still rather small so people (including myself) find that their closest Y-DNA match is thousands of years in the past.

As for Ivarr the boneless or the burial site at Woodstone, I have no idea but perhaps someone else does.

Okay deadly, that is exactly what I was wondering. If I would be changed from I1-M253/L813. It simply becomes much more specific. As for the Ivarr comment, maybe I should have put that as a question in the Ancient Samples thread. I only recently found out about the large burial at Woodstown and it seemed to be something not many were aware of. Thanks for the detailed reply!

sirdan
06-14-2021, 09:47 PM
Yes, from the very beginning even Ken Nordvedt(sp?) who looked at my results back in 2015 said it was definitely Norwegian in origin. His designation for it was '9 + Ultra Norse' or something along those lines.But since I have a very typical Irish surname, who, when and where from in Norway became my questions.Oups, there is arleady one Irish on the tree. If its You then only waiting left for new relatives. I-FGC9462 has TMRCA around 2000 ybp or 0 Year in other words. There might much happened till nowadays.

deadly77
06-14-2021, 09:58 PM
Okay deadly, that is exactly what I was wondering. If I would be changed from I1-M253/L813. It simply becomes much more specific. As for the Ivarr comment, maybe I should have put that as a question in the Ancient Samples thread. I only recently found out about the large burial at Woodstown and it seemed to be something not many were aware of. Thanks for the detailed reply!

I've made a map of the ancient samples that are known to be I1 - link is in my signature below. As far as I'm aware, there hasn't yet been any ancient I1 found in Ireland. There was definitely a Norse/Viking presence in Ireland historically, and some of those may have been I1. The recent Population Genomics of the Viking World paper showed the most common Y-DNA haplogroups in that study were I1 (32.06%), R1b (29.27%), R1a (29.27%) - similar numbers to what we see in modern Scandinavian populations.

That paper did include four samples from Ireland - one was female, two were R1a and one was R1b.

Kamo
06-14-2021, 10:03 PM
I've made a map of the ancient samples that are known to be I1 - link is in my signature below. As far as I'm aware, there hasn't yet been any ancient I1 found in Ireland. There was definitely a Norse/Viking presence in Ireland historically, and some of those may have been I1. The recent Population Genomics of the Viking World paper showed the most common Y-DNA haplogroups in that study were I1 (32.06%), R1b (29.27%), R1a (29.27%) - similar numbers to what we see in modern Scandinavian populations.

That paper did include four samples from Ireland - one was female, two were R1a and one was R1b.

Great info. I believe I have a paper off Academia called Population Genomics of the Viking World which I have not read yet. I'd say it is the same paper you mentioned.

deadly77
06-14-2021, 10:22 PM
That came out in Nature last year, although a preprint of the manuscript and supporting information (lots of info in the SI and worth a read) was made available by the authors online at bioRvix over a year earlier. The peer review paper can be found here https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2688-8 but appears to be behind a paywall, although you can access the supporting information there. Just a reminder that Anthrogenica's Terms of Service https://anthrogenica.com/faq.php doesn't allow the sharing of articles behind a paywall:

4.1 Anthrogenica only permits the posting of publicly accessible publications that have been properly attributed to their authors. In the event that a piece of literature is behind a paywall but the supplementary data is freely available, members are welcome to share the supplementary items in posts or threads. If both the paper and the supplementary are behind a paywall, neither are permitted to be shared publicly.

However, the preprint is an earlier draft of the manuscript and made available by the authors for comments during the peer review process and that can be viewed here https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/703405v1

Kamo
06-14-2021, 10:37 PM
Great thank you.

Kamo
06-26-2021, 01:30 PM
I see that results for BigY are listed by FTDNA as taking 10 - 12 weeks for those who are taking it as their first test. I wonder if the time is shortened to any degree for people like me who are upgrading.

JMcB
06-26-2021, 02:20 PM
I see that results for BigY are listed by FTDNA as taking 10 - 12 weeks for those who are taking it as their first test. I wonder if the time is shortened to any degree for people like me who are upgrading.


I would imagine it’s going to be about the same because it’s still a new NGS test and has to be processed in the same manner. Even if it’s a Y500 upgrade to Y700 they still have to do the test over again.

Paul333
06-26-2021, 06:24 PM
Ive been waiting more than 12 weeks, ordered 9th April 2021, today 'still analyzing data from 12th April 2021', BigY upgrade from Y111.

Paul333
06-28-2021, 06:20 PM
Ive been waiting nearly 12 weeks, ordered 9th April 2021, today 'still analyzing data from 12th April 2021', BigY upgrade from Y111..

In fact it will be 12 weeks this Friday.

lescoyi
06-29-2021, 09:26 AM
That's great, Kamo. I too just upgraded, from Y37 to Big Y. Prediction is downstream from I-Z382. Now the long wait.

Kamo
06-29-2021, 09:04 PM
Okay, so at a minimum it will be 1st or 2nd week of September. Not a problem really. I remember when I first tested it took nearly 4 months to get my results. Many had signed up at the same time as I did due to the temporarily reduced price around the holidays. The wait will be well worth it for the BigY.

deadly77
06-29-2021, 09:37 PM
That's great, Kamo. I too just upgraded, from Y37 to Big Y. Prediction is downstream from I-Z382. Now the long wait.

Welcome to the AG forums. Hope you find your results useful when they come in. We have another forum member MWauthy who is I believe is I-Z382, so he may be interested in where you end up once yours are complete.

Paul333
07-01-2021, 08:17 PM
Just received dissapointing news from FTDNA, my Big Y sample failed a quality control, and I now have to wait up to a further 6 to 10 weeks. This means its going to be an overall wait of some 18-22weeks for me to get my results, which is now going to be late Aug, early Sept 21.

Kamo
07-02-2021, 11:01 AM
Just received dissapointing news from FTDNA, my Big Y sample failed a quality control, and I now have to wait up to a further 6 to 10 weeks. This means its going to be an overall wait of some 18-22weeks for me to get my results, which is now going to be late Aug, early Sept 21.

Wow. I surely hope that isn't a common problem.

Kamo
07-04-2021, 05:29 PM
Hmm. Not sure what to make of it but my BigY test is now listed as 'Completed' on 7-2-2021 in my test orders list. Ordered 6-12 Batched 6-14 Completed 7-2. I don't see the results listed anywhere so not certain what Completed means in this case. In fact it still says it's in process under the BigY section. In looking back in the orders list, the other test results came out when it said 'Completed' but as I say, it doesn't appear to be working the same way with the BigY when it says Completed. That's just short of a month when I got the test so I wouldn't imagine it would be done already.

deadly77
07-05-2021, 03:02 PM
Hmm. Not sure what to make of it but my BigY test is now listed as 'Completed' on 7-2-2021 in my test orders list. Ordered 6-12 Batched 6-14 Completed 7-2. I don't see the results listed anywhere so not certain what Completed means in this case. In fact it still says it's in process under the BigY section. In looking back in the orders list, the other test results came out when it said 'Completed' but as I say, it doesn't appear to be working the same way with the BigY when it says Completed. That's just short of a month when I got the test so I wouldn't imagine it would be done already.

I haven't done BigY, so I'm perhaps not the best to advise, but I believe there are several components. First is to run any remaining STRs to complete up to Y111 - I believe you were previously Y67? In that case check your STR results as the "completed" message might refer to the STR completion, which is a separate test to the rest of the Big Y (although FTDNA bundles them together in one package). The other main component is the NGS test portion which is all of your Y-SNPs plus the post Y111 STRs. I believe that there's two stages to that - automatic processing of the results and that's followed by a manual review - both of these may have a separate "completed message" so you might see that again before all the results come in.

Kamo
07-05-2021, 03:34 PM
I haven't done BigY, so I'm perhaps not the best to advise, but I believe there are several components. First is to run any remaining STRs to complete up to Y111 - I believe you were previously Y67? In that case check your STR results as the "completed" message might refer to the STR completion, which is a separate test to the rest of the Big Y (although FTDNA bundles them together in one package). The other main component is the NGS test portion which is all of your Y-SNPs plus the post Y111 STRs. I believe that there's two stages to that - automatic processing of the results and that's followed by a manual review - both of these may have a separate "completed message" so you might see that again before all the results come in.

That certainly would make sense. When I first saw "Completed" I thought no way they would be done in under a month and if they are, then my concern would be if it was really thorough. I would rather wait for as long as is necessary to have a good complete test and I am sure FTDNA will do that.

Kamo
07-05-2021, 11:43 PM
Well, you were absolutely correct deadly. Marker level results 68-111 are showing in my STR results. Is there anything to be gleaned in terms of ancestral origins with the 68-111 results alone? FTDNA has changed navigation on their website and I am not familiar with the changes as of yet.

deadly77
07-06-2021, 12:05 AM
Well, you were absolutely correct deadly. Marker level results 68-111 are showing in my STR results. Is there anything to be gleaned in terms of ancestral origins with the 68-111 results alone? FTDNA has changed navigation on their website and I am not familiar with the changes as of yet.

I would take a look in to the your match list and see if any of the Y67 matches are still matches at the Y111 level - the threshold for Y111 is 10 genetic distance or less while Y67 is 7 GD or less. Some of them may drop away which will show that they were less close than they may have looked at the Y67 level. I guess you could plug the extra STR values into a predictor like Nevgen, but to be honest when the SNP portion of Big Y on the way you could just wait for that to complete and then you'll get a real position rather than prediction. Admittedly, I'm not too familiar with the changes to the FTDNA website, although it does seem less painfully slow than it was before. Because it was so slow in the past, I had not been using FTDNA for quite some time.

Kamo
07-06-2021, 12:08 AM
I would take a look in to the your match list and see if any of the Y67 matches are still matches at the Y111 level - the threshold for Y111 is 10 genetic distance or less while Y67 is 7 GD or less. Some of them may drop away which will show that they were less close than they may have looked at the Y67 level. I guess you could plug the extra STR values into a predictor like Nevgen, but to be honest when the SNP portion of Big Y on the way you could just wait for that to complete and then you'll get a real position rather than prediction. Admittedly, I'm not too familiar with the changes to the FTDNA website, although it does seem less painfully slow than it was before. Because it was so slow in the past, I had not been using FTDNA for quite some time.

I have been looking at just that for the last 5 or 10 minutes deadly77. Thus far I have found several men from Norway who match all the way from 12 to 111. One is at a distance of -9 and the other -10. There are more but I haven't gotten through the list yet. Areas including Molde and Buskerud, Ringerike and Varmland.

deadly77
07-06-2021, 09:19 AM
I have been looking at just that for the last 5 or 10 minutes deadly77. Thus far I have found several men from Norway who match all the way from 12 to 111. One is at a distance of -9 and the other -10. There are more but I haven't gotten through the list yet. Areas including Molde and Buskerud, Ringerike and Varmland.

FTDNA caps your match list at 10 differences or less for Y111, the ones at GD 9 and and 10 have just sneaked in under that threshold. It's more than a lot of people have. All of my Y67 matches that have gone up to Y111 drop off at this point, but these were GD 5-7 so not close. Several of them have done Big Y so I know that their patrilineal ancestors diverged from mine more than 2500 years ago. I'd ignore the TiP calculator that FTDNA uses as it's pretty useless. Better tools for STR relationships are things like the McGee Utility http://www.mymcgee.com/tools/yutility111.html and SAPP https://www.jdvsite.com/ David Vance made some graphs of genetic distance versus number of generations to common ancestor - looking at that, the average GD9 has a common ancestor 16 generations ago, although the 95% confidence interval means that for 95% of matches, this could be between 9 and 26 generations. GD10 is 17 generations average, with a 95% CI spread of 10 to 28 generations.

Kamo
07-06-2021, 11:07 AM
FTDNA caps your match list at 10 differences or less for Y111, the ones at GD 9 and and 10 have just sneaked in under that threshold. It's more than a lot of people have. All of my Y67 matches that have gone up to Y111 drop off at this point, but these were GD 5-7 so not close. Several of them have done Big Y so I know that their patrilineal ancestors diverged from mine more than 2500 years ago. I'd ignore the TiP calculator that FTDNA uses as it's pretty useless. Better tools for STR relationships are things like the McGee Utility http://www.mymcgee.com/tools/yutility111.html and SAPP https://www.jdvsite.com/ David Vance made some graphs of genetic distance versus number of generations to common ancestor - looking at that, the average GD9 has a common ancestor 16 generations ago, although the 95% confidence interval means that for 95% of matches, this could be between 9 and 26 generations. GD10 is 17 generations average, with a 95% CI spread of 10 to 28 generations.

Not sure on either of those links you provided what it is exactly I am supposed to upload. Another question I've had for some time is what do we now consider a generation? I have seen diverse numbers from 25 to 40 years as being 1 generation.

deadly77
07-06-2021, 12:58 PM
Not sure on either of those links you provided what it is exactly I am supposed to upload. Another question I've had for some time is what do we now consider a generation? I have seen diverse numbers from 25 to 40 years as being 1 generation.

You would need your STR results, plus the STR results of your matches (either through them staring them with you or if you're both in a FTDNA project together). SAPP has a few videos on youtube on how to use the tool, and the creator/owner is a forum member here on AG (Dave-V). To be honest, you're better off waiting for the SNP results to complete as those are a lot easier to interpret.

As for the generations question, it's a bit like the how long is a piece of string question. There's some discussion of it on the ISOGG wiki page here https://isogg.org/wiki/Generation_length but there doesn't seem to be a standard number of years that's universally acknowledged. Ask 10 people, probably get 10 different answers. Given the wide range of the 95% confidence interval, that's probably a bigger range than the differences in years per generation.

Kamo
07-06-2021, 02:54 PM
"better off waiting for the SNP results to complete as those are a lot easier to interpret." When I first tested at 67 marker level I was fortunate enough to find several knowledgeable people to look at my results and offer their opinion. Once my BigY700 results are in, how can I go about interpreting the SNPs as you mentioned? For me, I am chiefly curious if I might be able to find t least some approximation of a time frame and who what where etc that the I1-M253 came into the picture among my ancestors. I obviously just don't have the academic knowledge about the numbers and how it all relates to research it with much veracity on my own.

deadly77
07-06-2021, 06:50 PM
I think the SNP results of the Big Y are easier to interpret because it's mainly and either/or outcome with two options - either you're positive/derived for a SNP or you are negative/ancestral. There are some cases where you might have ambiguous, one read or no call, but those can be resolved by Sanger sequencing at YSEQ. Generally most of your SNPs are going to be positive or negative. This means that it will be possible to place you correctly on both of the main Y-DNA trees - the FTDNA public haplotree and the YFull tree if you choose to upload data there and the comparison with other tests will show you exactly where you branch off from everybody else in the database and from comparison of Y-DNA phylogeny, probably will be able to work out the order in which some of the SNP mutations occurred. YFull provides estimates of branch points while FTDNA claim that they are working on providing this. Although these estimates shouldn't be considered as genealogically exact.

STRs are less binary - it's not a simple yes or no and STR markers have a range. These can still be used for grouping and matching but I think it's better to look at these spread over several samples in a project rather than comparing an individual or two people. STR values can be used to predict a Y-DNA subclade based on common mutation values with others on the same branch but it isn't always infallible and can give some incorrect placements while SNPs will confirm or disprove. Similar with matching, STR matches with other individuals can sometimes make the relationship between the two testers look closer than it really is due to convergence of STR values, or more correctly a lack of divergence. This is a particular problem in the I1 haplogroup because we all share a relatively recent common ancestor between 5100 and 4000 years ago due to the I1 population bottleneck and expansion which effectively resets the odometer and means that the STRs haven't had enough time to diverge compared to haplogroups with an older TMRCA. So looking at the STR results alone can lead you into some matches and placements which may not be as close as they look. If you have the SNP data as well as the STR data, you can be a lot more confident about the validity rather than going down rabbit holes or chasing ghosts which may not be real.

That's not to say that STRs don't have value - they do, it's data after all. The variable mutation rate means that they may be able to assess further fine detail between the SNP branches, for example. And for someone who hasn't done a Big Y test, the STRs may be the only way you can compare with them. But as I said above, I think it's best evaluated by the analysis of a group rather than an individual or a pair. In that case if you haven't joined the I-L813 project at FTDNA here https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/i-l813y-haplogroup/about you should do so. The contact information in the form of email address for the project admins is also on that page, and they'll be the real experts of the subclade. Also the main I1 project here https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/y-dna-i1/about

Kamo
07-06-2021, 07:36 PM
I think the SNP results of the Big Y are easier to interpret because it's mainly and either/or outcome with two options - either you're positive/derived for a SNP or you are negative/ancestral. There are some cases where you might have ambiguous, one read or no call, but those can be resolved by Sanger sequencing at YSEQ. Generally most of your SNPs are going to be positive or negative. This means that it will be possible to place you correctly on both of the main Y-DNA trees - the FTDNA public haplotree and the YFull tree if you choose to upload data there and the comparison with other tests will show you exactly where you branch off from everybody else in the database and from comparison of Y-DNA phylogeny, probably will be able to work out the order in which some of the SNP mutations occurred. YFull provides estimates of branch points while FTDNA claim that they are working on providing this. Although these estimates shouldn't be considered as genealogically exact.

STRs are less binary - it's not a simple yes or no and STR markers have a range. These can still be used for grouping and matching but I think it's better to look at these spread over several samples in a project rather than comparing an individual or two people. STR values can be used to predict a Y-DNA subclade based on common mutation values with others on the same branch but it isn't always infallible and can give some incorrect placements while SNPs will confirm or disprove. Similar with matching, STR matches with other individuals can sometimes make the relationship between the two testers look closer than it really is due to convergence of STR values, or more correctly a lack of divergence. This is a particular problem in the I1 haplogroup because we all share a relatively recent common ancestor between 5100 and 4000 years ago due to the I1 population bottleneck and expansion which effectively resets the odometer and means that the STRs haven't had enough time to diverge compared to haplogroups with an older TMRCA. So looking at the STR results alone can lead you into some matches and placements which may not be as close as they look. If you have the SNP data as well as the STR data, you can be a lot more confident about the validity rather than going down rabbit holes or chasing ghosts which may not be real.

That's not to say that STRs don't have value - they do, it's data after all. The variable mutation rate means that they may be able to assess further fine detail between the SNP branches, for example. And for someone who hasn't done a Big Y test, the STRs may be the only way you can compare with them. But as I said above, I think it's best evaluated by the analysis of a group rather than an individual or a pair. In that case if you haven't joined the I-L813 project at FTDNA here https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/i-l813y-haplogroup/about you should do so. The contact information in the form of email address for the project admins is also on that page, and they'll be the real experts of the subclade. Also the main I1 project here https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/y-dna-i1/about


Great information as always here. I belong to both projects though I rarely post. From what you are saying Yfull would be a good place to turn to with my results once they are in. I am sure when that time comes I will have more questions. Though I myself work in a very technically oriented field, I am honestly not very good at understanding the figures until you guys who know your stuff tell me what it means. For instance, when I tested positive for L813, until Ken Nordvedt(sp?) looked at my results and gave me some details about L813 and where it is most prominent, it meant nothing to me. The STR values, all of it were just numbers on a page. I'm only a little more knowledgeable since then :\ Once the BigY results are fully completed as I say, I am certain I will have more questions.

deadly77
07-07-2021, 04:45 PM
Great information as always here. I belong to both projects though I rarely post. From what you are saying Yfull would be a good place to turn to with my results once they are in. I am sure when that time comes I will have more questions. Though I myself work in a very technically oriented field, I am honestly not very good at understanding the figures until you guys who know your stuff tell me what it means. For instance, when I tested positive for L813, until Ken Nordvedt(sp?) looked at my results and gave me some details about L813 and where it is most prominent, it meant nothing to me. The STR values, all of it were just numbers on a page. I'm only a little more knowledgeable since then :\ Once the BigY results are fully completed as I say, I am certain I will have more questions.

I'd recommend YFull - I think their tools and analysis interface are easier to use, less buggy and quicker to find what you're looking for than FTDNA's system. It was probably more valuable before FTDNA provided some features that third party analysis such as YFull, Full Genomes Corp and Big Tree had previously provided for several years. FTDNA's previous approach prior to 2017 was to run the test and provide very minimal analysis, but they've upped their game considerably since then. I still think a second opinion is valuable, and there are some features at YFull that aren't at FTDNA - such as age estimates for subclade branches. FTDNA have been saying for several years that they are looking into providing this, but it hasn't happened yet. Another benefit is that you can compare with people outside of the FTDNA database, so people on your branch that have done the FGC YElite test or WGS tests (various providers). Admittedly that's a smaller testing pool as FTDNA is the largest Y-DNA database so it's useful to be in both.

I came a bit later to this than Ken Nordtvedt. I don't believe he's very active in genetic genealogy circles anymore - his Wikipedia page has him a bit advanced in age, so hopefully he's enjoying retirement. He's clearly one of the early pioneers of Y-DNA genetic genealogy. In the years that he was most active, the testing options were not as widespread as they are today and a lot of the analysis is based on Y-STRs and single SNP tests because those were commercially available before NGS tests such as the Big Y. He's definitely made great contributions but one particular thing that he did that I'm not so keen on is how he named several of his STR clusters (which later became SNP based subclades) into groups such as Norse, Ultra-Norse, Anglo-Saxon. I think that tends to conflate in people's understanding that these Y-DNA groupings actually represent those cultural/historic groups, when the actual TMRCA of these subclades often predates these cultural/historic groups by several centuries if not millennia, and it's likely that all of these had the same source populations (which is the age of most of the subclades that we're looking at.

Kamo
07-08-2021, 05:10 PM
At the time Nordvedt took a look at my results I believe he was already either fully or partly retired. That was in 2015 so who knows at this point.

Kamo
07-13-2021, 12:12 AM
My BigY700 results are in. What do they mean becomes the question. When I click on matches at the 700 level I only have 4. I will upload these results to Yfull at some point.

mokordo
07-13-2021, 11:59 AM
My BigY700 results are in. What do they mean becomes the question. When I click on matches at the 700 level I only have 4. I will upload these results to Yfull at some point.

Congratulations for your 4 matches at 700, I upgraded my Y111 to Y700 and I have still matches only with 12 markers.(any match with 25/37/67/111 or 700).

Riverman
07-13-2021, 01:12 PM
My BigY700 results are in. What do they mean becomes the question. When I click on matches at the 700 level I only have 4. I will upload these results to Yfull at some point.

That's great, because at the 700 level only closer matches being counted. I have none.

JMcB
07-13-2021, 01:56 PM
My BigY700 results are in. What do they mean becomes the question. When I click on matches at the 700 level I only have 4. I will upload these results to Yfull at some point.

So what did you get? What’s your new Haplogroup designation?

Kamo
07-13-2021, 05:24 PM
Congratulations for your 4 matches at 700, I upgraded my Y111 to Y700 and I have still matches only with 12 markers.(any match with 25/37/67/111 or 700).

Out of 4 matches, 3 of them are in Norway and 1 is in the States. They've listed relations with surnames like Fidge, Melby, Berge, Jonsdatter, Olsen, Eriksdotter, Gormsen, Nilsson, and others. I honestly had thought once I took it to the 700 level most matches would likely be more closely related to Ireland and Scotland with related surnames. This is getting really interesting.

Kamo
07-13-2021, 06:14 PM
So what did you get? What’s your new Haplogroup designation?

I have been looking for that but can't seem to find it. I see several choices under BigY700 - "Block Tree" "Big Y Matches" "Results" "Y-STR Results" and none of those seem to show a specific Haplogroup designation anywhere. At 67 markers I tested out as I1-M253/L813/FGC9462. It still shows FGC9462 listed as 'Confirmed Haplogroup" on the badge on right side of my FTDNA profile page so apparently that hasn't changed or somehow it is still tabulating since the results just came in.

Riverman
07-13-2021, 06:31 PM
I have been looking for that but can't seem to find it. I see several choices under BigY700 - "Block Tree" "Big Y Matches" "Results" "Y-STR Results" and none of those seem to show a specific Haplogroup designation anywhere. At 67 markers I tested out as I1-M253/L813/FGC9462. Would that have changed?

When your test is done, your (current) terminal SNP being on the right side of the starting page, where you got a badge "confirmed Y-DNA haplogroup". Under Block Tree you find "your branch" where its written as well. Probably not if you're not finished yet, or even if, it could still change with the next update if you belong to and therefore create a new branch.

Kamo
07-13-2021, 06:49 PM
When your test is done, your (current) terminal SNP being on the right side of the starting page, where you got a badge "confirmed Y-DNA haplogroup". Under Block Tree you find "your branch" where its written as well. Probably not if you're not finished yet, or even if, it could still change with the next update if you belong to and therefore create a new branch.

FTDNA recently updated the navigation on the site and I'm still getting used to it. On "Block Tree" it lists across the top -

I-CTS6868-I-Z74-I-FGC9478-I-L813-I-FGC9487-I-FGC9493-I-FGC9494-I-FGC9486-I-FGC9455-I-FGC9453-I-FGC9461-I-FGC9462

Not long after my initial 67 marker results came in I purchased the CTS6868 SNP pack test and that's when FGC9462 was found as positive.

On the Block Tree page it lists more what I assume are matches than on the actual matches page. It lists the 4 that are on the matches page and 4 or 5 more. Not sure what those are if they are matches or who those people are. Most from Norway with 2 of them from Sweden.

Riverman
07-13-2021, 07:42 PM
FTDNA recently updated the navigation on the site and I'm still getting used to it. On "Block Tree" it lists across the top -

I-CTS6868-I-Z74-I-FGC9478-I-L813-I-FGC9487-I-FGC9493-I-FGC9494-I-FGC9486-I-FGC9455-I-FGC9453-I-FGC9461-I-FGC9462

Not long after my initial 67 marker results came in I purchased the CTS6868 SNP pack test and that's when FGC9462 was found as positive.

On the Block Tree page it lists more what I assume are matches than on the actual matches page. It lists the 4 that are on the matches page and 4 or 5 more. Not sure what those are if they are matches or who those people are. Most from Norway with 2 of them from Sweden.

The lowest identification at "your branch" is your terminal SNP atm.
Those on the block tree which are above your branch and further removed, but still quite close and next to you upstream will be visible at the default view on block tree . From there you can explore the big tree on.
So the ones from your big matches are really close.

Kamo
07-13-2021, 07:59 PM
The lowest identification at "your branch" is your terminal SNP atm.
Those on the block tree which are above your branch and further removed, but still quite close and next to you upstream will be visible at the default view on block tree . From there you can explore the big tree on.
So the ones from your big matches are really close.

Okay, so the 90 matches shown in the drop down box to the left on the Block Tree page are somewhat close matches but the 4 matches shown on the actual BigY matches page are very close matches is essentially what you are saying...

Riverman
07-13-2021, 08:28 PM
Okay, so the 90 matches shown in the drop down box to the left on the Block Tree page are somewhat close matches but the 4 matches shown on the actual BigY matches page are very close matches is essentially what you are saying...

Indeed, they should be even from a fairly close downstream branch of yours or directly from your branch. I don't know which threshold they have, but it should be fairly high, so you should be quite close to those 4.

Kamo
07-13-2021, 08:35 PM
Indeed, they should be even from a fairly close downstream branch of yours or directly from your branch. I don't know which threshold they have, but it should be fairly high, so you should be quite close to those 4.

The whole thing is fascinating. On one hand since I don't match the Irish and Scottish men with my surname who are all R1B-M222 it makes it difficult to find any ancestors or people I am otherwise actually related to on a familial level. On the other hand, it does certainly make the quest quite interesting. It sure would be great to get at least some approximation of when and how a predominantly Norwegian Ydna got into my family line.

JMcB
07-13-2021, 08:58 PM
I have been looking for that but can't seem to find it. I see several choices under BigY700 - "Block Tree" "Big Y Matches" "Results" "Y-STR Results" and none of those seem to show a specific Haplogroup designation anywhere. At 67 markers I tested out as I1-M253/L813/FGC9462. It still shows FGC9462 listed as 'Confirmed Haplogroup" on the badge on right side of my FTDNA profile page so apparently that hasn't changed or somehow it is still tabulating since the results just came in.


As Riverman said, it’s the one on your Badge and it will also show up on the Block Tree as: Your branch. Because there’s no personal information involved, I took a screen shot of your Block Tree:

45523


As it usually take Family Tree anywhere from a few days to a few weeks to do their manual reviews, I would keep and eye on it. Just in case they change your Haplogroup because you match one of your matches, more than you do others.

Congratulations!

Kamo
07-13-2021, 09:23 PM
As Riverman said, it’s the one on your Badge and it will also show up on the Block Tree as: Your branch. Because there’s no personal information involved, I took a screen shot of your Block Tree:

45523


As it usually take Family Tree anywhere from a few days to a few weeks to do their manual reviews, I would keep and eye on it. Just in case they change your Haplogroup because you match one of your matches, more than you do others.

Congratulations!

Thank you JMcB. Yes, FGC9462 is still on the Badge. I am curious about a couple things on that Block Tree page. scrolled on the bottom are the names of matches which includes the 4 on the actual Matches page but also includes others that are not listed on the BigY matches page-only the 4. Up at the top left on the same Block Tree page there are the words "Matches" and "Reset". When I click "Matches" I get a drop down box listing 90 matches, most of whose names I recognize from viewing my matches when still at 67 marker level. What exactly is it I am seeing here?

JMcB
07-13-2021, 09:43 PM
Thank you JMcB. Yes, FGC9462 is still on the Badge. I am curious about a couple things on that Block Tree page. scrolled on the bottom are the names of matches which includes the 4 on the actual Matches page but also includes others that are not listed on the BigY matches page-only the 4. Up at the top left on the same Block Tree page there are the words "Matches" and "Reset". When I click "Matches" I get a drop down box listing 90 matches, most of whose names I recognize from viewing my matches when still at 67 marker level. What exactly is it I am seeing here?


If I remember correctly, those matches are taken from your STR results and are added onto the Block Tree for convenience. So that you don’t have to switch back and forth to see them. The Big Y matches are the ones that count. Some of mine in that (STR) group are actually quite distant from me.


Edit: Out of curiosity, are any of your Big Y matches relatively close STR matches?

JMcB
07-13-2021, 09:51 PM
Delete

Kamo
07-13-2021, 10:09 PM
If I remember correctly, those matches are taken from your STR results and are added onto the Block Tree for convenience. So that you don’t have to switch back and forth to see them. The Big Y matches are the ones that count. Some of mine in that (STR) group are actually quite distant from me.


Edit: Out of curiosity, are any of your Big Y matches relatively close STR matches?

What's the easiest way to check that? The way I have been checking to see if any BigY matches are close STR matches is going to my str Ydna matches pages and at 111 checking the table that each match has, looking at "BigY STR differences" listed.

JMcB
07-13-2021, 11:43 PM
What's the easiest way to check that? The way I have been checking to see if any BigY matches are close STR matches is going to my str Ydna matches pages and at 111 checking the table that each match has, looking at "BigY STR differences" listed.

I’m curious to know how close your Big Y matches are on your 111 STRs matches page. Using just the 111 marker results.

Kamo
07-13-2021, 11:51 PM
I’m curious to know how close your Big Y matches are on your 111 STRs matches page. Using just the 111 marker results.

Ok. One example is my closest 111 marker match which is 7 steps. Also this same match under the heading "Big Y STR Differences " lists '14 of 621' Their haplogroup shown to be I-FT232222. He tested to 700 level.
The next 111 match is 8 steps and then the next 4 matches after that are 9 steps with similar ratios of str differences on BigY. Hope that helps

JMcB
07-14-2021, 12:10 AM
Ok. One example is my closest 111 marker match which is 7 steps. Also this same match under the heading "Big Y STR Differences " lists '14 of 621' Their haplogroup shown to be I-FT232222. He tested to 700 level.
The next 111 match is 8 steps and then the next 4 matches after that are 9 steps with similar ratios of str differences on BigY. Hope that helps

I’m sorry, I should had specified only the ones who are FGC9462 like you. Although, from what you’ve said it looks like they’re in the 8 or 9 range. I was wondering if any of them were pointing towards a possible splitting of your branch but it looks we’ll have to wait and see.

Thank you for looking.

Kamo
07-14-2021, 12:27 AM
I’m sorry, I should had specified only the ones who are FGC9462 like you. Although, from what you’ve said it looks like they’re in the 8 or 9 range. I was wondering if any of them were pointing towards a possible splitting of your branch but it looks we’ll have to wait and see.

Thank you for looking.

I understand JMcB. In my case, none of my 111 marker matches show FGC9462. The closest I get is a match who has only tested to 111 and is listed as L813.

JMcB
07-15-2021, 02:42 PM
I understand JMcB. In my case, none of my 111 marker matches show FGC9462. The closest I get is a match who has only tested to 111 and is listed as L813.


Hello Kamo,

It looks like your branch has split and you are now in I-FT235874, along with a Norwegian. Judging from the Block Tree’s SNP count bar on the left, it looks like you have a TMRCA of approximately 1200 AD +/-20%. More or less.

On average (you both have) 8 Private Variants in 2 Big Y participants


Edit: Here are a couple of screen shots of the same:

45560

45561

Kamo
07-15-2021, 10:00 PM
Hello Kamo,

It looks like your branch has split and you are now in I-FT235874, along with a Norwegian. Judging from the Block Tree’s SNP count bar on the left, it looks like you have a TMRCA of approximately 1200 AD +/-20%. More or less.

On average (you both have) 8 Private Variants in 2 Big Y participants


Edit: Here are a couple of screen shots of the same:

45560

45561


Yes, I see the Badge is changed now as well. What exactly does it mean that it split? These 8 private variants we have in common? What exactly is a 'private variant'? Sorry for all the questions. TMRCA of approx 1200 AD +/- 20%. Now I wonder who this common ancestor was and where he came from.

JMcB
07-16-2021, 12:15 AM
Yes, I see the Badge is changed now as well. What exactly does it mean that it split? These 8 private variants we have in common? What exactly is a 'private variant'? Sorry for all the questions. TMRCA of approx 1200 AD +/- 20%. Now I wonder who this common ancestor was and where he came from.

Basically, it means that your test revealed that you are closer to the Norwegian tester, than you are to the other four member of your previous branch (FGC9642). So you formed a new branch with him (FT235874). Sometime around the approximate date of 1200 AD, you and your match split from each other and began forming your own Private Variants. So at this point, your Private Variants have only been found in you and his have only been found in him. Hopefully, someone will come along in the future and match some of your Private Variants and form another new branch. Which will bring you closer in time to the present. As to who your ancestor was, I cannot say but he doesn’t appear to have been your typical Irishman. :)

Kamo
07-16-2021, 12:33 AM
Basically, it means that your test revealed that you are closer to the Norwegian tester, than you are to the other four member of your previous branch (FGC9642). So you formed a new branch with him (FT235874). Sometime around the approximate date of 1200 AD, you and your match split from each other and began forming your own Private Variants. So at this point, your Private Variants have only been found in you and his have only been found in him. Hopefully, someone will come along in the future and match some of your Private Variants and form another new branch. Which will bring you closer in time to the present. As to who your ancestor was, I cannot say but he doesn’t appear to have been your typical Irishman. :)

Okay, that makes sense now I understand what a split means. Will the current I-FT235874 designation remain or as time goes on and more test will that as well as my 700 level matches change?

JMcB
07-16-2021, 02:43 AM
Okay, that makes sense now I understand what a split means. Will the current I-FT235874 designation remain or as time goes on and more test will that as well as my 700 level matches change?

If someone comes along and matches some of your Private Variants, then you’ll be assigned a new Haplogroup with that new person. Leaving your Norwegian match by himself in FT235874. If someone matches him first, you’ll be left alone. If a very close relative decided to take a test and matched all of your Private Variants, then your final Haplogroup would be determined and it would stop changing.

Calamus
07-16-2021, 10:04 AM
Basically, it means that your test revealed that you are closer to the Norwegian tester, than you are to the other four member of your previous branch (FGC9642). So you formed a new branch with him (FT235874). Sometime around the approximate date of 1200 AD, you and your match split from each other and began forming your own Private Variants. So at this point, your Private Variants have only been found in you and his have only been found in him. Hopefully, someone will come along in the future and match some of your Private Variants and form another new branch. Which will bring you closer in time to the present. As to who your ancestor was, I cannot say but he doesn’t appear to have been your typical Irishman. :)

The 1200AD seems a bit off for the TMRCA for I-FT235874. YFull has an approximate TMRCA date of I-FGC9462 of 250AD. The genealogy of the testers in the I-FT57402 and I-FT212267 groups are well documented back to 1325AD, so we can use the genealogy to date the I-FT212267 mutation to just after 1400AD. There are 12 known mutations between I-FGC9462 and I-FT212267, giving an average of 95,8 years per mutation (using YFull date of 250AD for I-FG9462). Based on this, I think a more likely TMRCA for I-FT235874 would be around 1000AD.

BTW: The Norwegian I-FT235874 tester is from Agder in Norway.

Kamo
07-16-2021, 10:28 AM
The 1200AD seems a bit off for the TMRCA for I-FT235874. YFull has an approximate TMRCA date of I-FGC9462 of 250AD. The genealogy of the testers in the I-FT57402 and I-FT212267 groups are well documented back to 1325AD, so we can use the genealogy to date the I-FT212267 mutation to just after 1400AD. There are 12 known mutations between I-FGC9462 and I-FT212267, giving an average of 95,8 years per mutation (using YFull date of 250AD for I-FG9462). Based on this, I think a more likely TMRCA for I-FT235874 would be around 1000AD.

BTW: The Norwegian I-FT235874 tester is from Agder in Norway.

Yes, I see the man you are referring to. I wonder if our common ancestor is also from Agder. I suppose there is no way to tell. In any case, this is getting more and more interesting.

JMcB
07-16-2021, 02:33 PM
The 1200AD seems a bit off for the TMRCA for I-FT235874. YFull has an approximate TMRCA date of I-FGC9462 of 250AD. The genealogy of the testers in the I-FT57402 and I-FT212267 groups are well documented back to 1325AD, so we can use the genealogy to date the I-FT212267 mutation to just after 1400AD. There are 12 known mutations between I-FGC9462 and I-FT212267, giving an average of 95,8 years per mutation (using YFull date of 250AD for I-FG9462). Based on this, I think a more likely TMRCA for I-FT235874 would be around 1000AD.

BTW: The Norwegian I-FT235874 tester is from Agder in Norway.


To be honest, most age estimations aren’t very precise. This has often been mentioned by some very knowledgable people, like Prof Iain MacDonald, David Vance and implicitly, YFull themselves. See, for example, their Confidence Intervals. Which is why I pointed out in the preceding post, that it was an approximate date based on FT’s SNP count bar and that it came with a +/- range of 20%. More or less. Which actually includes your date of 1000 AD.

Kamo
07-16-2021, 11:42 PM
On my mother's side of the family are German and Danish. Quite by accident 6-8 years ago I stumbled upon an ancestry records website hosted in Germany with the entire German side of the family dating back to the 1300s. In that sort of flow chart style. Mother-father then each mother and father of that couple and so on. I had no idea records were kept for that far back and my hunch is it was done by Catholic church. I mean who else was keeping such detailed records in Germany so long ago? I tried to contact the website just to ask where on Earth they found all that information about my family but there was no contact info on the site. I don't know if such records exist in many places so when 2 have a TMRCA from many centuries ago finding records listing names will be unlikely. Also if I am not mistaken, surnames as such were not in use anywhere in Scandinavia that long ago. Matches on FTDNA often have their contact info posted on their profiles but again, I am not sure what can be gleaned from making contact. They likely will not know anymore than you do, though I could be wrong.