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View Full Version : De 4000 BC a 1000 BC de prehistoria en la península Ibérica (siglo más, siglo menos)



castrogonzalo
06-15-2021, 10:57 AM
Hola. Inicio este hilo para continuar una conversación que se inició en el de "Resultados de ibéricos" y que se quedaba un poco fuera. El título explica el objetivo y busco que alguien pueda aclarar una etapa que se conoce solo a través de la arqueología y la genética, campos en los que yo no soy experto.

castrogonzalo
06-15-2021, 11:11 AM
Incluyo aquí el post que publiqué en el otro hilo:

Mi motivación está dada por la duda que me asaltó cuando me enseñaron hace muuuchos años que "los celtas vinieron del norte, los íberos del sur y se mezclaron en el centro para formar los celtíberos". Después me he enterado del refugio Cántabro-Pirenaico, de la llegada por el Mediterráneo de los granjeros de Anatolia, y del cambio genético que introdujeron los estepeños R1b (supuestamente, que me temo que esta es una posible peleíta), como antecedentes para el escenario que se encontraron los griegos, cartagineses y romanos cuando llegaron a la península. Se necesitan respuestas para entender porqué conviven una cultura indoeuropea y celta y otra íbera no indoeuropea, porqué el DF-27 (supuestamente estepeño* indoeuropeo) surge en el NE de la península, zona íbera y es mayoritario en el País Vasco que no es de lengua indoeuropea. ¡Muchas cosas que comentar!"

(*PS: Lo de estepeño es una broma porque aquí en Andalucía tenemos los marismeños y los sabandeños, jaja! Lo correcto es estepario.)

castrogonzalo
06-15-2021, 11:47 AM
y la respuesta de alejandromb92:

"El DF27 es efectivamente un haplogrupo de origen indo-europeo, pero no surge en la peninsula, siendo el DF27 mas antiguo hasta ahora uno encontrado en Alemania, no recuerdo si era una de las primeras muestras de Vaso Campaniforme. Cuando el DF27 llega aqui a la peninsula, llegaba incluso con 1 a 2 mutaciones por delante.

Lo que si me es curioso es la cantidad abismal de ingleses con DF27, de los cuales yo pienso que la mayoria son de origen peninsular por las rutas maritimas que tenia la cultura del Vaso Campaniforme y porque todos tienen los mismos clados de los ibericos, sobretodo de los españoles.
"

Yo conozco el artículo de Nature "Analysis of the R1b-DF27 haplogroup shows that a large fraction of IberianY-chromosome lineages originated recently in situ" de Solé-Morata, que plantea el surgimiento del DF-27 en el NE de la península. Es de 2017, si conoces el artículo científico posterior que corrige esto, el del DF-27 alemán más antiguo, te agradecería que me lo indicaras. Hay que tener en cuenta que, más que la antigüedad, la diversidad genética es determinante para el origen.

Los orígenes de la cerámica campaniforme también tiene una gran relación y es tema de debate (y peleítas, jaja!). Para mí, surge en el estuario del Tajo, en la península.

Shadogowah
06-15-2021, 12:14 PM
y la respuesta de alejandromb92:

"El DF27 es efectivamente un haplogrupo de origen indo-europeo, pero no surge en la peninsula, siendo el DF27 mas antiguo hasta ahora uno encontrado en Alemania, no recuerdo si era una de las primeras muestras de Vaso Campaniforme. Cuando el DF27 llega aqui a la peninsula, llegaba incluso con 1 a 2 mutaciones por delante.

Lo que si me es curioso es la cantidad abismal de ingleses con DF27, de los cuales yo pienso que la mayoria son de origen peninsular por las rutas maritimas que tenia la cultura del Vaso Campaniforme y porque todos tienen los mismos clados de los ibericos, sobretodo de los españoles.
"

Yo conozco el artículo de Nature "Analysis of the R1b-DF27 haplogroup shows that a large fraction of IberianY-chromosome lineages originated recently in situ" de Solé-Morata, que plantea el surgimiento del DF-27 en el NE de la península. Es de 2017, si conoces el artículo científico posterior que corrige esto, el del DF-27 alemán más antiguo, te agradecería que me lo indicaras. Hay que tener en cuenta que, más que la antigüedad, la diversidad genética es determinante para el origen.

Los orígenes de la cerámica campaniforme también tiene una gran relación y es tema de debate (y peleítas, jaja!). Para mí, surge en el estuario del Tajo, en la península.

Todo esto es bastante conocido ya desde hace unos años.

I0806 Quedlinburg DF27 2290 BC (2431-2150 calBC) Se trata de un enterramiento Bell Beaker con elementos de cerámica cordada.

Luego aparecieron un par de muestras en Sicilia como mucho a un par de siglos de distancia. Podrían ser contenporáneas.

I8561 Isnello (Abisso del Vento), (2346-2199 calBCE)
I3123 Buffa Cave (Villafrati), (2287-2044 calBCE)

En mi opinión es más que probable que ya hubiera DF27 en España durante el mismo periodo pero desgraciadamente las muestras no permiten llegar tan lejos y solo sabemos que eran R1b-M269, pero no se ha podido confirmar si eran DF27.

Conectando de nuevo con una respuesta anterior, el fenómeno Bell Beaker es un fenómeno cultural y los primeros Bell Beaker ibéricos NO TIENEN haplogrupos indoeuropeos y suy perfil genético es distinto. Pero rápidamente son reemplazados por los llegados del este.

castrogonzalo
06-15-2021, 12:56 PM
Otra cuestión:

Para mí, que soy un amateur, me resulta chocante que el vaso campaniforme más antiguo esté datado en 2750 BC en el estuario del Tajo, eso es un hecho científico, y sin embargo se hable de los bell beakers como si no tuvieran relación con la península!

alejandromb92
06-15-2021, 01:00 PM
y la respuesta de alejandromb92:

"El DF27 es efectivamente un haplogrupo de origen indo-europeo, pero no surge en la peninsula, siendo el DF27 mas antiguo hasta ahora uno encontrado en Alemania, no recuerdo si era una de las primeras muestras de Vaso Campaniforme. Cuando el DF27 llega aqui a la peninsula, llegaba incluso con 1 a 2 mutaciones por delante.

Lo que si me es curioso es la cantidad abismal de ingleses con DF27, de los cuales yo pienso que la mayoria son de origen peninsular por las rutas maritimas que tenia la cultura del Vaso Campaniforme y porque todos tienen los mismos clados de los ibericos, sobretodo de los españoles.
"

Yo conozco el artículo de Nature "Analysis of the R1b-DF27 haplogroup shows that a large fraction of IberianY-chromosome lineages originated recently in situ" de Solé-Morata, que plantea el surgimiento del DF-27 en el NE de la península. Es de 2017, si conoces el artículo científico posterior que corrige esto, el del DF-27 alemán más antiguo, te agradecería que me lo indicaras. Hay que tener en cuenta que, más que la antigüedad, la diversidad genética es determinante para el origen.

Los orígenes de la cerámica campaniforme también tiene una gran relación y es tema de debate (y peleítas, jaja!). Para mí, surge en el estuario del Tajo, en la península.

Me malacostumbre a decir que el DF27 lo trajo la cultura del Vaso Campaniforme, cuando en realidad quiero decir Campo de Urnas. No veo como es posible que un clado muy por debajo del L51 pudo extenderse desde el Oeste y no desde el Este con los Ceramica Cordada, me parece muy poco probable. Lo que si creo es que el DF27, habiendo llegado previamente con Campo de Urnas, se extiende por Francia e Inglaterra desde España con Vaso Campaniforme, eso si lo veo mas viable.

Indico la muestra mas antigua DF27 hasta ahora: I0806. En efecto, es una de Vaso Campaniforme.

Como dato curioso, aqui en este mismo foro hay un simpatico usuario polaco que tiene DF27 y un clado siguiente muy extraño que al parecer solo es comun en su zona, lo que podria indicar que ese DF27 paso por ahi y alguno que otro se quedo.

Shadogowah
06-15-2021, 01:07 PM
Otra cuestión:

Para mí, que soy un amateur, me resulta chocante que el vaso campaniforme más antiguo esté datado en 2750 BC en el estuario del Tajo, eso es un hecho científico, y sin embargo se hable de los bell beakers como si no tuvieran relación con la península!

El vaso campaniforme, aun siendo quizás el elemento más representativo, es solo uno más del pack. Es perfectamente posible que como elemento cultural la idea viajase de occidente a oriente mientras que el flujo démico ocurriese al revés. Piensa en el hábito de fumar o comer chocolate respecto a la colonización de América.

castrogonzalo
06-15-2021, 01:12 PM
Todo esto es bastante conocido ya desde hace unos años.

I0806 Quedlinburg DF27 2290 BC (2431-2150 calBC) Se trata de un enterramiento Bell Beaker con elementos de cerámica cordada.

Luego aparecieron un par de muestras en Sicilia como mucho a un par de siglos de distancia. Podrían ser contenporáneas.

I8561 Isnello (Abisso del Vento), (2346-2199 calBCE)
I3123 Buffa Cave (Villafrati), (2287-2044 calBCE)

En mi opinión es más que probable que ya hubiera DF27 en España durante el mismo periodo pero desgraciadamente las muestras no permiten llegar tan lejos y solo sabemos que eran R1b-M269, pero no se ha podido confirmar si eran DF27.

Conectando de nuevo con una respuesta anterior, el fenómeno Bell Beaker es un fenómeno cultural y los primeros Bell Beaker ibéricos NO TIENEN haplogrupos indoeuropeos y suy perfil genético es distinto. Pero rápidamente son reemplazados por los llegados del este.

Hay algo que no me cuadra. En la tabla 3 del artículo que puse arriba, la edad del DF 27 en Aragón es 4527 ya. Eso lo data con anterioridad al I0806 2290 BC no?

mokordo
06-15-2021, 01:13 PM
Aquí están las hojas de cálculo del estudio de Olalde, con todos los haplotipos de las muestras antiguas del estudio, aparte de código de las muestras, yacimiento,época o cultura histórica asignada, etc.. ( S1):

https://science.sciencemag.org/highwire/filestream/724016/field_highwire_adjunct_files/2/aav4040_TablesS1-S5.xlsx

Más que nada, para que os la podáis descargar si no las tenéis ya, viene bien tenerlas a mano para consultarlas.

Shadogowah
06-15-2021, 01:33 PM
Hay algo que no me cuadra. En la tabla 3 del artículo que puse arriba, la edad del DF 27 en Aragón es 4527 ya. Eso lo data con anterioridad al I0806 2290 BC no?

A ver, que estás mezclando churras con merinas.

Ese paper es un estudio sobre la distribución de clados de DF27 en población ACTUAL. No tiene nada que ver con muestras antiguas.

La tabla lo que te pone es la edad estimada de los diferentes haplogrupos. Es un cálculo estadísitico de cuando se cree que la mutación apareció (analizando las muestras modernas!).

Aquí estamos hablando de Carbono14 a muestras reales. A señores muertos hace cuatro mil años que tenían el haplogrupo DF27.

Analizando DF27 de señores de Aragón puedes llegar a la conclusión de que el DF27 del que descienden los señores de Aragón nació hace 4527 años, pero no sabes donde.

El señor de Quedlimburg que se enterró hace casi cuatro mil y pico de años quizás era el tataranieto del patriarca de los aragoneses o a lo mejor forma parte de otra rama, pero es un muerto REAL, no un ancestro hipotético en base a cálculos estadísticos.

castrogonzalo
06-15-2021, 02:04 PM
A ver, que estás mezclando churras con merinas.

Ese paper es un estudio sobre la distribución de clados de DF27 en población ACTUAL. No tiene nada que ver con muestras antiguas.

La tabla lo que te pone es la edad estimada de los diferentes haplogrupos. Es un cálculo estadísitico de cuando se cree que la mutación apareció (analizando las muestras modernas!).

Aquí estamos hablando de Carbono14 a muestras reales. A señores muertos hace cuatro mil años que tenían el haplogrupo DF27.

Analizando DF27 de señores de Aragón puedes llegar a la conclusión de que el DF27 del que descienden los señores de Aragón nació hace 4527 años, pero no sabes donde.

El señor de Quedlimburg que se enterró hace casi cuatro mil y pico de años quizás era el tataranieto del patriarca de los aragoneses o a lo mejor forma parte de otra rama, pero es un muerto REAL, no un ancestro hipotético en base a cálculos estadísticos.

Gracias por la aclaración. Efectivamente, el artículo al que hice referencia no muestra datos de muestras antiguas y, como dices, hay que deducir que el DF-27 no surge en la península.

Pues vaya decepción! Se me ha caído el mito del Adán ibérico ... jaja.

Shadogowah
06-15-2021, 02:20 PM
Gracias por la aclaración. Efectivamente, el artículo al que hice referencia no muestra datos de muestras antiguas y, como dices, hay que deducir que el DF-27 no surge en la península.

Pues vaya decepción! Se me ha caído el mito del Adán ibérico ... jaja.

Quizás lo fue. No lo sabemos con certeza.

De todas formas si no lo fue, no debió andar muy lejos. Seguramente el primer Df27 ya nació en Europa.

mokordo
06-15-2021, 02:49 PM
Analysis of the R1b-DF27 haplogroup shows that a large fraction of Iberian Y-chromosome lineages originated recently in situ


Haplogroup R1b-M269 comprises most Western European Y chromosomes; of its main branches, R1b-DF27 is by far the least known, and it appears to be highly prevalent only in Iberia. We have genotyped 1072 R1b-DF27 chromosomes for six additional SNPs and 17 Y-STRs in population samples from Spain, Portugal and France in order to further characterize this lineage and, in particular, to ascertain the time and place where it originated, as well as its subsequent dynamics.

We found that R1b-DF27 is present in frequencies ~40% in Iberian populations and up to 70% in Basques, but it drops quickly to 6–20% in France. Overall, the age of R1b-DF27 is estimated at ~4,200 years ago, at the transition between the Neolithic and the Bronze Age, when the Y chromosome landscape of W Europe was thoroughly remodeled.

In spite of its high frequency in Basques, Y-STR internal diversity of R1b-DF27 is lower there, and results in more recent age estimates; NE Iberia is the most likely place of origin of DF27. Subhaplogroup frequencies within R1b-DF27 are geographically structured, and show domains that are reminiscent of the pre-Roman Celtic/Iberian division, or of the medieval Christian kingdoms.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5544771/

A mí la verdad es que no me afecta todo esto, como yo soy R1a...B)

castrogonzalo
06-15-2021, 04:25 PM
https://i.imgur.com/NBzgOY8.gif

:biggrin1:

castrogonzalo
06-15-2021, 04:39 PM
Quizás lo fue. No lo sabemos con certeza.

De todas formas si no lo fue, no debió andar muy lejos. Seguramente el primer Df27 ya nació en Europa.

Entonces podríamos decir que es posible que haya surgido en el NE de la península, pero con los datos que se tienen lo probable es que haya surgido en (o cerca de) Alemania.

Shadogowah
06-17-2021, 07:39 AM
Entonces podríamos decir que es posible que haya surgido en el NE de la península, pero con los datos que se tienen lo probable es que haya surgido en (o cerca de) Alemania.

El primer DF27 podría haber nacido en cualquier parte y su papá habérselo traído hasta los Pirineos montado en un caballo. Esta gente tenía una enorme movilidad y los 500 años más o menos que tenemos de margen dan pie a cualquier posibilidad. Lo que si parece claro es que fue en el occidente europeo donde él y sus descendientes encontraron muchas mocitas casaderas con las que tener muchos niños y hacer felices a los abuelos.

alejandromb92
06-17-2021, 07:52 AM
Haciendo un calculo bastante vago, el primer DF27 podria haber nacido a las alturas del rio Vistula, o un poquillo antes. Esta muy dificil de determinar exactamente donde pero yo creo que los tiros van por ahi.

alejandromb92
06-17-2021, 08:26 AM
Bueno habra que hablar de vez en cuando sobre el L21, donde estan esos machos ibericos con L21 hombre, hagamos representacion por aqui que terminamos en la seccion de los guiris y estos son mas sosos que un bocadillo de pipas. Tambien podriamos hablar sobre el clado de nuestro querido zamorano, no se si ya has utilizado el tool de YSEQ para ver si te arroja algun resultado que LivingDNA no te este dando.

castrogonzalo
06-17-2021, 11:25 AM
Bueno habra que hablar de vez en cuando sobre el L21, donde estan esos machos ibericos con L21 hombre, hagamos representacion por aqui que terminamos en la seccion de los guiris y estos son mas sosos que un bocadillo de pipas. Tambien podriamos hablar sobre el clado de nuestro querido zamorano, no se si ya has utilizado el tool de YSEQ para ver si te arroja algun resultado que LivingDNA no te este dando.

He utilizado una página que me pasó mokordo y me ploteé aquí:

45203

Ajeje Brazorf
06-17-2021, 11:58 AM
Si puede ayudar al hilo, todas estas son muestras de Global25 de la Península Ibérica datadas entre el 4000 y el 1000 a.C:



Scaled G25
Date


Iberia_Southwest_MLN:I7549,0.120652,0.170609,0.048 649,-0.051357,0.085862,-0.032909,-0.008225,-0.002769,0.070152,0.093669,0.007145,0.015586,-0.030327,-0.019955,-0.010722,-0.008884,0.019036,0.003167,0.005908,-0.004877,0.007612,0.001855,-0.009737,-0.045549,-0.007305
-4000


Iberia_MN:I0408,0.122929,0.170609,0.054305,-0.035207,0.089555,-0.017012,-0.008695,-0.001154,0.065243,0.09859,-0.005196,0.012589,-0.029435,-0.018579,-0.01045,0.001061,0.012778,0.006208,0,-0.004502,0.019216,0.002102,-0.019103,-0.039524,0.000958
-3773


Iberia_MN:I0405,0.1161,0.162485,0.057699,-0.038114,0.082477,-0.024821,-0.002585,-0.000231,0.067084,0.08638,0.000974,0.016186,-0.038652,-0.020368,-0.003529,0.000928,0.013038,-0.003674,-0.006285,-0.004752,0.018842,0.008037,-0.013927,-0.0435,0.000958
-3750


Iberia_MN:I0406,0.124067,0.156392,0.050911,-0.033592,0.082477,-0.014781,-0.010105,0.003692,0.063198,0.087656,-0.00341,0.008093,-0.024826,-0.015138,-0.007465,-0.00716,-0.00352,0.006461,0.000503,-0.005753,0.015972,0.004822,-0.014666,-0.035186,0.009819
-3750


Iberia_MN:I0407,0.121791,0.161469,0.046386,-0.027455,0.086785,-0.029284,-0.018096,-0.006461,0.061766,0.096585,-0.004384,0.018583,-0.038503,-0.008808,-0.011265,0.003845,0.021513,0.007981,0.000754,-0.006753,0.018717,0.003586,-0.014543,-0.044103,-0.002036
-3750


Iberia_Southeast_MLN:I7600,0.124067,0.171624,0.046 763,-0.043605,0.084016,-0.03514,-0.007285,0.003692,0.07322,0.104786,0.000487,0.0230 79,-0.034787,0.001101,0.002172,-0.020021,-0.013169,0.003421,-0.002765,-0.005503,0.00549,-0.002226,-0.008258,-0.04097,-0.001557
-3675


Iberia_Southeast_MLN:I7601,0.1161,0.166547,0.04902 6,-0.028747,0.084323,-0.024542,-0.01034,0.001615,0.070561,0.094945,0.003897,0.0127 39,-0.024826,-0.003165,-0.008686,-0.019756,-0.014603,0.008868,0.004777,0.007629,0.011854,0.021 763,-0.025512,-0.040608,0.005149
-3590


Iberia_Southeast_MLN:I7644,0.126344,0.167562,0.048 649,-0.052003,0.087709,-0.036814,-0.00752,-0.001385,0.057471,0.082188,-0.000162,0.02218,-0.036422,-0.020919,-0.019815,0.015911,0.021122,0.005701,-0.001634,-0.003502,0.003119,0.009398,-0.012078,-0.040849,0.001676
-3510


Iberia_Southeast_MLN:I7598,0.12862,0.170609,0.0411 06,-0.042636,0.07663,-0.021475,-0.012221,-0.004846,0.067084,0.095127,-0.005684,0.018733,-0.036719,-0.020231,-0.016015,-0.005304,-0.000913,-0.002914,0.005154,-0.004877,0.005116,0.000495,-0.015283,-0.034704,0.001916
-3500


Iberia_Southeast_MLN:I7594,0.122929,0.17264,0.0392 21,-0.055233,0.070782,-0.020359,-0.002115,-0.002077,0.076287,0.092758,0.002923,0.011839,-0.030921,-0.01734,0.001493,0.006364,0.009388,0.003547,0.0026 4,-0.010255,0.01148,-0.000495,-0.023787,-0.029161,-0.00946
-3440


Iberia_Southeast_MLN:I8568,0.130897,0.161469,0.052 797,-0.034884,0.087709,-0.022032,-0.00705,-0.003,0.070561,0.08802,0.003573,0.019033,-0.029583,-0.021744,-0.010043,0.001326,0.010561,-0.000507,0.006285,-0.005378,0.001996,-0.00136,-0.01861,-0.040247,0.005868
-3425


Iberia_Southwest_CA:I5428,0.130897,0.153345,0.0463 86,-0.027455,0.084631,-0.028168,-0.001645,-0.002308,0.063811,0.093123,0.007957,0.018883,-0.033895,-0.013625,-0.007872,0.006629,0.025034,0.005068,0.002388,0.003 502,0.01672,0.011129,-0.015529,-0.040126,0.001796
-3226


Iberia_Southwest_CA:I5076,0.122929,0.171624,0.0584 54,-0.037468,0.078168,-0.020638,-0.004935,0.004846,0.061357,0.086562,-0.006983,0.012139,-0.031665,-0.012937,0.001221,-0.015115,-0.014994,-0.00152,-0.00088,-0.009505,0.015098,0.00136,-0.014913,-0.03868,0.002634
-3181


Iberia_Southeast_CA:I8566,0.126344,0.176702,0.0554 37,-0.02907,0.087401,-0.036814,-0.01034,0.009923,0.076901,0.089113,-0.010393,0.02278,-0.041328,-0.030415,0.002172,0.006895,-0.002999,-0.002534,-0.007416,5e-04,0.010731,0.000124,-0.013434,-0.035186,-0.004431
-3150


Iberia_North_MLN:I11248,0.135449,0.167562,0.070899 ,-0.017119,0.098788,-0.020638,-0.0094,0.002538,0.059516,0.093487,0.000325,0.01318 8,-0.028692,-0.019818,-0.013436,0.011668,0.005737,0.002914,0.001634,-0.007003,0.01959,0.006059,-0.020336,-0.046272,0.000838
-3100


Iberia_North_MLN:I11249,0.132035,0.159438,0.065619 ,-0.01615,0.09571,-0.016455,-0.00705,0.007154,0.075878,0.08474,-0.001299,0.013488,-0.02661,-0.018304,-0.0038,0.019358,0.024903,0.002407,-0.002263,-0.003252,0.008235,0.005688,-0.015406,-0.039162,0.000359
-3100


Iberia_North_MLN:I11301,0.12862,0.164516,0.064865,-0.021964,0.093248,-0.016176,-0.005875,0.006,0.060335,0.095127,-0.009743,0.008093,-0.039098,-0.024222,0.000679,0.004906,-0.001565,0.006841,-0.001383,-0.002626,0.022959,0.001978,-0.023787,-0.043259,0.006107
-3100


Iberia_North_MLN:I7602,0.126344,0.159438,0.071653,-0.023256,0.086785,-0.019522,-0.00658,0.000462,0.065039,0.084922,-0.002761,0.007793,-0.032408,-0.01734,-0.006922,0.006099,0.004694,0.000507,-0.005405,0.003377,0.017719,0.007419,-0.013311,-0.049525,0.012454
-3100


Iberia_North_MLN:I7603,0.124067,0.17264,0.066373,-0.021318,0.101557,-0.022032,-0.002115,0.010846,0.068925,0.088567,-0.007145,0.018134,-0.037462,-0.007982,0.004207,-0.014717,-0.008084,0.002154,0.005908,-0.001,0.013351,0.008408,-0.012941,-0.032173,-0.001197
-3100


Iberia_North_MLN:I7604,0.134311,0.156392,0.067505,-0.022933,0.08894,-0.010598,-0.009635,0.005077,0.062584,0.094945,0.000325,0.017 834,-0.029732,-0.010459,-0.006243,-0.003845,0.014342,-0.004181,-0.005279,0.010255,0.015223,0.006306,-0.008627,-0.042657,-0.001557
-3100


Iberia_North_MLN:I7605,0.122929,0.166547,0.073161,-0.014858,0.09294,-0.028168,-0.00846,-0.006231,0.069947,0.090389,-0.003897,0.016635,-0.026016,-0.017891,-0.0038,0.003315,0.005998,-0.009375,-0.001508,-0.002251,0.016221,-0.007914,-0.009737,-0.052658,0.007185
-3100


Iberia_North_MLN:I7606,0.136588,0.167562,0.074293,-0.01938,0.096326,-0.020638,0.000705,0.007615,0.058698,0.089478,-0.001786,0.012589,-0.027056,-0.024222,-0.000271,0.016574,0.020079,0.002154,0.009427,-0.001751,0.014849,0.003833,-0.007888,-0.039524,0.008023
-3100


Iberia_Southwest_CA:I11599,0.111547,0.155376,0.052 043,-0.028424,0.091709,-0.02008,-0.008695,-0.002769,0.06872,0.101506,0.001624,0.013488,-0.02884,-0.015689,-0.005565,0.006629,0.008084,-0.004941,-0.006034,-0.002001,0.023833,0.015828,-0.01935,-0.041331,-0.002874
-3100


Iberia_Southwest_CA:I11600,0.126344,0.165531,0.059 208,-0.027455,0.089247,-0.022032,-0.0094,-0.002077,0.082014,0.12228,0.002436,0.023079,-0.048463,-0.032479,-0.020629,0.000398,0.02047,0.014442,0.003645,0.0051 27,0.02558,0.009274,-0.025882,-0.11098,0.027423
-3100


Iberia_Southwest_CA:I3432,0.12862,0.167562,0.04978 ,-0.036822,0.08617,-0.029284,-0.00047,0.000231,0.063198,0.097496,-0.003085,0.017834,-0.033895,-0.010872,-0.009636,-0.00358,0.014994,0.003547,-0.002514,0.000375,0.007986,-0.007419,-0.017008,-0.0435,0.006347
-2994


Iberia_Northeast_CA:I4565,0.129758,0.167562,0.0561 91,-0.029393,0.08617,-0.0251,-0.006815,-0.001615,0.066061,0.099319,-0.001299,0.014987,-0.032408,-0.015276,-0.005565,0.008618,0.008214,0.013429,0.004777,-0.003126,0.016221,0.007419,-0.018734,-0.043259,0.002515
-2964


Iberia_Northeast_MLN:I10277,0.121791,0.173656,0.05 0911,-0.034884,0.090786,-0.01757,-0.004935,0.003,0.066061,0.090754,-0.003573,0.020532,-0.023786,-0.013349,-0.009636,0.011933,0.020079,0.005321,-0.005154,-0.005127,0.003369,0.000742,-0.015406,-0.034704,0.000838
-2950


Iberia_Northeast_MLN:I10278,0.121791,0.17264,0.050 157,-0.044574,0.088324,-0.017849,-0.000705,0.006,0.072197,0.101141,0.005359,0.012889 ,-0.0278,-0.01156,0.003257,-0.011005,-0.009518,0.006461,0.002388,-0.000625,0.009109,0.000495,-0.017748,-0.046754,0.007065
-2950


Iberia_Northeast_MLN:I10280,0.130897,0.165531,0.05 5814,-0.045543,0.094171,-0.027331,-0.002115,-0.000462,0.056653,0.090936,-0.00341,0.018883,-0.032111,-0.025598,-0.004343,-0.003182,-0.002217,-0.005068,-0.000754,-0.005628,0.010232,0.008656,-0.020459,-0.03868,-0.003832
-2950


Iberia_Northeast_MLN:I10285,0.132035,0.171624,0.06 5619,-0.029393,0.092633,-0.009203,-0.008695,0.007384,0.062584,0.090389,-0.001461,0.006744,-0.03107,-0.018992,0.006379,-0.007027,-0.004172,0.011909,0.000628,-0.008629,0.014599,0.006677,-0.013434,-0.039042,-0.000239
-2950


Iberia_Northeast_MLN:I10287,0.117238,0.169593,0.04 3369,-0.033915,0.093864,-0.028447,-0.002115,-0.000692,0.054812,0.095492,-0.004872,0.017385,-0.031516,-0.018166,-0.013029,0.013259,0.024512,-0.000633,-0.004525,-0.001376,0.012977,0.008656,-0.020213,-0.032776,-0.004431
-2950


Iberia_Northeast_MLN:I11305,0.130897,0.168578,0.04 2992,-0.050065,0.078784,-0.023148,-0.000705,0.006461,0.061971,0.096221,0.001137,0.023 979,-0.038354,-0.02491,-0.016558,0.009812,0.021253,0.000253,-0.005782,-0.005378,0.01123,0.001484,-0.01442,-0.020605,0.000599
-2950


Iberia_Northeast_MLN:I11306,0.126344,0.171624,0.06 1471,-0.037468,0.092633,-0.0251,-0.015041,0.006,0.069743,0.096038,-0.007632,0.017085,-0.030327,-0.010459,-0.002036,-0.006099,-0.01356,0.004181,0.009553,-0.002126,0.019216,0.00915,-0.017378,-0.043862,0.005389
-2950


Iberia_Southwest_CA:I5429,0.125205,0.161469,0.0452 54,-0.033915,0.079399,-0.032072,-0.001175,-0.003461,0.062993,0.092758,0.004872,0.014087,-0.035381,-0.009358,-0.002714,-0.005171,-0.002999,0.004561,0.001006,-0.004377,0.015722,0.004946,-0.021815,-0.039644,0.005269
-2948


Iberia_North_CA:I1842,0.135449,0.166547,0.072784,-0.021641,0.087401,-0.014781,-0.003525,0.009692,0.070152,0.093852,0.00341,0.0152 86,-0.027948,-0.021607,-0.015201,-0.002121,0.001695,0.003167,0.003645,-0.006753,0.015597,-0.00136,-0.016392,-0.044344,0.004431
-2900


Iberia_North_CA:I1845,0.136588,0.17264,0.058077,-0.028101,0.076937,-0.015618,-0.00282,0.004846,0.069538,0.093852,0.003897,0.0215 81,-0.039544,-0.011147,0.002579,-0.017369,-0.007953,0.001647,0.006662,-0.012131,0.021462,0.004822,-0.021568,-0.033017,0.00934
-2875


Iberia_North_CA:I1846,0.135449,0.167562,0.058454,-0.033269,0.087093,-0.026495,-0.00329,0.005077,0.071174,0.102599,-0.010393,0.020232,-0.037314,-0.022295,-0.001221,0.004243,0.014733,0.005194,-0.00729,0.003377,0.017968,0.005564,-0.014666,-0.047718,0.010298
-2875


Iberia_North_CA:I1978,0.132035,0.166547,0.062225,-0.023579,0.094787,-0.020359,-0.00235,0.003461,0.066061,0.092029,0.001949,0.0197 82,-0.029583,-0.016377,0.000271,-0.000265,0.001304,0.000633,-0.002891,0.002001,0.008859,-0.000618,-0.017008,-0.039765,-0.001916
-2875


Iberia_Southeast_MLN:I7642,0.134311,0.1635,0.04299 2,-0.043605,0.09571,-0.032072,-0.00329,0.001385,0.065652,0.102417,0.000974,0.0193 33,-0.037314,-0.017203,-0.002307,-0.002254,-0.002738,0.00266,-0.001257,-0.01063,0.015348,-0.000371,-0.009367,-0.037837,0.000239
-2834


Iberia_Southwest_CA:I11605,0.127482,0.164516,0.056 945,-0.022287,0.084323,-0.023985,-0.002115,0.006461,0.06872,0.085469,-0.003248,0.01139,-0.037314,-0.018166,0.002307,0.007027,0.024903,-0.00228,-0.010182,0.008629,0.013851,0.012365,-0.022801,-0.037114,0.00479
-2800


Iberia_Southeast_CA:I8569,0.126344,0.162485,0.0482 71,-0.034238,0.081554,-0.022869,0.002115,-0.003923,0.063198,0.088202,-0.000974,0.018284,-0.026313,-0.016515,-0.0057,0.014983,0.02373,0.010769,0.007793,-0.003377,0.008235,0.006677,-0.011092,-0.024823,0.000359
-2749


Iberia_Southeast_CA:I8197,0.118376,0.165531,0.0456 32,-0.042313,0.092633,-0.022032,-0.00188,0.000923,0.062175,0.093305,-0.002598,0.014237,-0.027205,-0.020781,-0.018322,0.00305,0.022556,0.009375,-0.002137,-0.00963,0.000998,0.004575,-0.012448,-0.034101,0.000838
-2700


Iberia_Southeast_CA:I8198,0.121791,0.159438,0.0433 69,-0.037145,0.084631,-0.018686,-0.010105,0.003231,0.059516,0.098043,-0.001624,0.019033,-0.036868,-0.023121,-0.009772,0.00358,0.01017,-0.000633,-0.00264,-0.006378,0.001373,0,-0.00912,-0.040367,0.004311
-2700


Iberia_Southeast_CA:I8199,0.127482,0.167562,0.0494 03,-0.051034,0.091709,-0.025658,-0.00658,-0.000231,0.067493,0.095309,0.000974,0.019932,-0.031813,-0.017616,-0.002579,-0.005569,0.014603,0.005701,-0.003017,-0.003502,0.007861,-0.002844,-0.019473,-0.040608,0.004431
-2700


Iberia_Southwest_CA:I11592,0.122929,0.164516,0.056 191,-0.025517,0.080938,-0.025379,-0.01034,0.002308,0.068106,0.099683,0.007795,0.0074 93,-0.035084,-0.014726,-0.00855,-0.00305,0.00352,0.000633,0.005028,-0.00963,0.002745,0.003091,-0.012325,-0.040006,0.006706
-2700


Iberia_Southwest_CA:I11614,0.122929,0.173656,0.049 026,-0.040052,0.081554,-0.0251,-0.00282,0.004384,0.06463,0.091665,-0.003085,0.013638,-0.031665,-0.028075,0.000136,0.010077,0.019166,0.005448,0.003 897,0.003502,0.013227,0.003586,-0.013064,-0.041813,0.001676
-2700


Iberia_Southwest_CA:I6601,0.122929,0.1635,0.0445,-0.037791,0.094171,-0.022311,-0.00235,0.000923,0.069334,0.095492,0.004384,0.0113 9,-0.027948,-0.016652,-0.007872,-0.012463,-0.009388,0.006208,0.005908,-0.006378,0.013351,0.004699,-0.01479,-0.039162,0.005389
-2700


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I1970,0.125205,0.173656,0.06750 5,-0.0323,0.079399,-0.024263,-0.00611,0.004384,0.054403,0.113533,-0.009094,0.018883,-0.041922,-0.030965,0.000271,0.010209,0.021905,-0.001014,0.009176,0.00988,0.013351,-0.00643,-0.017378,-0.045549,0.000838
-2683


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I0826,0.132035,0.176702,0.06222 5,-0.029393,0.090171,-0.016455,-0.021386,0.006461,0.041927,0.098407,-0.009743,0.006444,-0.043112,-0.010459,-0.001221,-0.011668,0.021905,-0.007981,0.00817,-0.013006,0.005366,-0.015209,-0.006039,-0.040849,0.002634
-2654


Iberia_Southeast_CA:I8364,0.126344,0.174671,0.0554 37,-0.043928,0.078476,-0.025379,-0.015981,-0.000462,0.063811,0.089478,-0.000325,0.012889,-0.026462,-0.00812,-0.015065,-0.003713,0.009648,0.00152,0.001508,-0.010255,0.013726,0.002226,-0.010723,-0.039403,0.006706
-2637


Iberia_Southeast_CA:I8365,0.1161,0.166547,0.041483 ,-0.049419,0.093556,-0.03263,-0.00423,0.001615,0.074038,0.085469,0.000812,0.0094 42,-0.024232,-0.012524,-0.006243,-0.001326,0.005346,-0.00266,0.00264,0.001251,0.007861,-0.006183,-0.016515,-0.027112,-0.003473
-2637


Iberia_Central_CA:I6617,0.129758,0.167562,0.050911 ,-0.024871,0.090786,-0.022311,-0.00705,-0.003692,0.065652,0.093123,-0.006171,0.017684,-0.03776,-0.023671,0.000814,0.006629,0.014864,0.004561,0.003 017,-0.005002,0.014599,0.001113,-0.007148,-0.027474,0.00479
-2600


Iberia_Central_CA_Stp:EHU002,0.125205,0.15436,0.05 8831,0.022287,0.055087,-0.000279,0.0047,0.005077,0.031906,0.03991,0.00065, 0.010341,-0.029881,-0.007707,0.010993,0.011403,0.003651,0.00076,0.0020 11,0.003126,0.019216,0.006554,-0.008504,-0.019521,0.008023
-2431


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I0459,0.127482,0.166547,0.05958 5,-0.028424,0.082477,-0.016176,-0.00517,0.001154,0.073833,0.078726,-0.003897,0.015137,-0.027948,-0.016377,-0.003664,0.007292,0.008345,0.002914,-0.004902,-0.003126,0.009358,0.003091,-0.013188,-0.046633,0.005628
-2400


Iberia_Mallorca_EBA:I4329,0.120652,0.14319,0.05656 8,0.008398,0.054472,0,0,0.005077,0.023111,0.043008 ,-0.012179,0.014087,-0.027502,-0.017891,0.0076,0.006895,0.010691,-0.002914,0.003268,-0.011756,-0.001747,-0.006183,-0.016885,-0.006868,0.0097
-2381


Iberia_Northwest_CA_Stp:I3238,0.119514,0.139128,0. 056191,0.035207,0.066782,-0.004183,-0.003055,-0.008077,0.024747,0.040456,0.00682,0.009741,-0.017096,-0.018166,0.016015,-0.000265,0.004955,0.007475,-0.011564,0.002751,0.007362,0.005193,-0.000863,-0.014339,-0.001916
-2350


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I4247,0.12862,0.178733,0.034695 ,-0.030685,0.080323,-0.021753,-0.012926,0.01223,0.065652,0.101141,-0.000162,0.024578,-0.021556,-0.022845,-0.009093,0.018695,0.023339,-0.004434,0.001257,-0.007879,0.010731,0.006677,-0.019227,-0.035186,0.001437
-2335


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I0460,0.12862,0.156392,0.064111 ,-0.021318,0.08894,-0.015897,-0.00564,0.001385,0.06872,0.097314,-0.004872,0.017984,-0.025124,-0.026011,0.006243,-0.00358,0.00352,0.007095,0.003268,-0.009004,0.016221,-0.002968,-0.020952,-0.04832,0.003832
-2333


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I0461,0.1161,0.140143,0.051288, 0.008721,0.070475,-0.00753,-0.00846,0.007846,0.041518,0.046106,-0.010555,0.010341,-0.021853,-0.021744,0.012351,0.019358,0.016428,0.007981,-0.005154,0.005628,0.009358,0,-0.011955,-0.013375,-0.002874
-2327


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I0840,0.122929,0.157407,0.05204 3,-0.030685,0.081861,-0.020638,-0.014336,-0.005769,0.068106,0.090571,-0.003248,0.016186,-0.033895,-0.022708,-0.001221,0.000265,0.014864,-0.014189,0.001885,-0.00025,0.012104,0.00371,-0.00493,-0.038198,0.003353
-2303


Iberia_Central_CA_Afr:I4246,-0.05122,0.140143,-0.002263,-0.091086,0.0397,-0.047133,-0.036192,0.007384,0.091013,0.044283,0.012179,-0.000899,0.006987,-0.018029,0.020087,-0.016309,0.000652,-0.016596,-0.033561,0.003001,-0.011729,-0.018548,0.013064,-0.009399,0.005987
-2273


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I6472,0.135449,0.144205,0.07655 5,0.015181,0.048009,-0.009482,-0.015276,0.000923,0.035383,0.049933,0.001624,0.016 935,-0.029286,-0.009221,0.012758,-0.016971,0.004955,-0.003674,-0.007039,-0.002501,0.004866,0.010263,-0.006902,-0.020244,0.004431
-2250


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I6539,0.124067,0.149283,0.05732 2,-0.003553,0.070167,-0.001394,-0.01081,0.003692,0.030679,0.041914,0.00341,0.00524 5,-0.023637,-0.026286,0.002307,0.009414,0.024121,-0.004941,0.00264,-0.006503,0.002496,0.00371,-0.001849,-0.016147,0.003233
-2250


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I6584,0.124067,0.175687,0.06033 9,-0.02584,0.080015,-0.029284,-0.00329,0.001846,0.074856,0.087656,-0.004222,0.013488,-0.020069,-0.01101,-0.002986,-0.008884,0.009257,-0.000507,0.016718,0.017383,0.005241,0.00371,-0.015036,-0.026992,-0.006347
-2250


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I6587,0.118376,0.165531,0.05807 7,-0.036499,0.089555,-0.030957,-0.01081,-0.001615,0.060539,0.094763,0.000487,0.004796,-0.036125,-0.020231,-0.003664,-0.002519,0.010431,-0.002154,-0.015335,-0.006253,0.024332,-0.009274,-0.014173,-0.030607,-0.008263
-2250


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I6588,0.134311,0.15436,0.061094 ,0.007429,0.053856,0.014502,0.00658,0.01823,0.0182 03,0.045741,-0.009906,0.016036,-0.025867,-0.026424,0.011265,0.012596,0.000522,0.006081,-0.002388,0.017508,0.006613,-0.015457,-0.001849,-0.003133,0.007305
-2250


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I4229,0.120652,0.160454,0.04789 4,-0.023902,0.077553,-0.013387,-0.008695,0.005077,0.053176,0.072894,-0.003897,0.012439,-0.037611,-0.015689,-0.004072,-0.001326,0.003129,0.005574,0.000628,-0.004252,0.018218,-0.000495,-0.017624,-0.025666,-0.000239
-2214


Iberia_Central_CA_Stp:EHU001,0.126344,0.129988,0.0 50157,0.041344,0.037853,0.011156,0.003995,0.000462 ,0.015135,0.024784,-0.002436,0.008842,-0.017245,-0.013625,0.024294,0.008088,-0.000652,0.006968,0.004022,-0.000125,0.002371,0.00136,0,-0.003856,0.007664
-2164


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I6623,0.133173,0.146236,0.06147 1,0.036822,0.042162,0.011435,0.00987,0.002077,0.02 1475,0.032256,-0.015427,0.014087,-0.020812,-0.020781,0.009636,-0.006762,-0.016168,0.007221,0.004902,0.005628,0.010482,0.010 51,-0.004683,-0.011929,0
-2150


Bell_Beaker_Iberia_C:I6542,0.133173,0.157407,0.061 094,-0.022933,0.093248,-0.00251,0.00141,0.008538,0.063402,0.090025,-0.002273,0.012589,-0.030178,-0.018854,-0.013436,0.003315,0.028945,0.004941,-0.000754,0.013757,0.015722,-0.003586,-0.013188,-0.053984,-0.011376
-2150


Iberia_Central_CA:I6609,0.126344,0.173656,0.05506,-0.042313,0.097557,-0.030957,-0.010575,-0.000462,0.07097,0.086927,-0.017376,0.010191,-0.030773,-0.01156,-0.001629,0.006895,0.009909,-0.000507,0.003394,-0.000125,0.015098,-0.001731,-0.007395,-0.026028,-0.001078
-2150


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I5665,0.126344,0.149283,0.05279 7,0.012274,0.068936,0.000837,-0.011281,-0.001385,0.043768,0.049204,0.001624,0.014687,-0.02438,-0.008945,0.001493,-0.002121,-0.008736,0.009755,0.004777,-0.00025,0.013227,0.001113,-0.00456,-0.027474,0.000838
-2133


Iberia_Central_CA:I3485,0.125205,0.162485,0.051666 ,-0.022933,0.080015,-0.014502,-0.006345,0.004384,0.048472,0.075992,-0.003897,0.014687,-0.025124,-0.011698,-0.005429,-0.001458,-0.00665,-0.001774,-0.009427,-0.014882,0.015098,0.007419,-0.011216,-0.028679,0.006107
-2100


Iberia_Central_CA:I6604,0.124067,0.17264,0.061848,-0.028747,0.115098,-0.017291,-0.004935,0.000692,0.078537,0.105697,-0.000812,0.013488,-0.032557,-0.01156,-0.012893,0.005967,0.028684,0.002027,-0.002765,0.007879,0.016845,0.000742,-0.021568,-0.040247,-0.00455
-2013


Iberia_Central_BA:I3756,0.124067,0.149283,0.06675, 0.001615,0.07386,-0.013666,-0.002115,-0.006,0.033951,0.06761,-0.009743,0.014387,-0.032408,-0.024497,0.007193,0.01432,0.023991,-0.002027,0.001006,-0.006628,0.00836,-0.004575,-0.006532,-0.025425,-0.004191
-1897


Iberia_Southeast_BA:I3494,0.127482,0.158423,0.0573 22,-0.017442,0.07109,-0.00753,-0.010105,0.004846,0.0452,0.073806,-0.004872,0.012439,-0.020218,-0.014588,0.00665,0.001724,-0.000261,0.009755,-0.002011,0.001,0.011355,-0.001607,-0.009244,-0.029281,0.001557
-1837


Iberia_Southwest_BA_Afr:I7162,0.103579,0.15436,0.0 43746,-0.005491,0.066782,-0.017849,-0.009635,0.001154,0.054403,0.054671,0.002923,0.004 046,-0.020664,-0.0139,0.008415,-0.007425,-0.00678,0.00114,-0.016089,-0.005253,0.002246,-0.005193,-0.008997,-0.02181,0.001916
-1812


Iberia_Formentera_MBA:I4420_all,0.120652,0.151314, 0.048649,-0.002261,0.056934,-0.009203,-0.003995,0.004384,0.035792,0.058133,-0.001461,0.01079,-0.02438,-0.022845,0.004479,0.008884,0.012126,-0.001014,-0.003268,-0.002376,0.006114,0.000124,-0.000493,-0.01687,0.002275
-1788


Iberia_Central_BA:I6618,0.119514,0.166547,0.061848 ,-0.001292,0.073244,-0.013666,-0.00611,0.000231,0.039473,0.060502,0.003573,0.0154 36,-0.020515,-0.015964,-0.003664,-0.002519,0.009127,0.000633,-0.000377,0.006628,0.00574,0.002844,-0.006409,-0.01699,0.003473
-1785


Iberia_North_BA:VAD001,0.12862,0.147252,0.053174,0 .008398,0.070475,0,-0.011516,0.007384,0.033746,0.058862,-0.003085,0.011839,-0.020515,-0.027112,0.007465,0.014585,0.022296,-0.003547,-0.012318,0.003502,0.014474,0.010016,-0.007641,-0.017111,0.001317
-1709


Iberia_Southeast_BA:I3997,0.122929,0.160454,0.0539 28,-0.002584,0.06832,-0.013108,-0.0047,0.005307,0.046836,0.072165,0.000812,0.01378 8,-0.032259,-0.032754,0.006786,0.020817,0.024121,-0.005574,-0.006662,-0.001251,0.003369,0.004946,-0.008381,-0.025184,0.000599
-1709


Iberia_North_BA:VAD004,0.120652,0.15436,0.052043,0 .006783,0.06155,-0.007809,0.004935,0.002308,0.030679,0.058133,-0.005034,0.007643,-0.034192,-0.011698,0.015201,-0.010475,0.002217,0.005701,0.009427,-0.01038,0.006738,0.006306,-0.005669,-0.012411,0.010418
-1700


Iberia_Northeast_BA:I1310,0.121791,0.152329,0.0592 08,0.007429,0.070782,-0.009482,-0.00329,-0.001846,0.039473,0.05704,-0.001299,0.010191,-0.017393,-0.017203,0.005429,0.015248,0.016298,-0.006841,-0.000628,0.002126,-0.001622,0.006183,-0.007518,-0.025064,-0.000599
-1700


Iberia_Northeast_BA:I1313_d,0.122929,0.152329,0.05 8831,-0.004845,0.064012,-0.019522,-0.008695,-0.001154,0.041927,0.047564,0.000325,0.010041,-0.029732,-0.011836,0.002036,0.010607,0.021774,0.005701,0.004 651,0.007379,0.01959,0.005935,-0.013311,-0.008555,0.001317
-1700


Iberia_Northeast_BA:I4562,0.122929,0.152329,0.0629 79,-0.001938,0.065551,-0.007251,0.00235,-0.001154,0.039473,0.055035,-0.007957,0.004346,-0.024232,-0.016102,0.004343,0.008884,0.00339,-0.000127,0.000503,0.003502,0.010232,0.004081,-0.01023,-0.022654,0.006586
-1677


Iberia_Central_BA:I6470,0.126344,0.148267,0.059962 ,0.002907,0.061858,-0.001394,-0.00799,0.001846,0.042541,0.049933,0.000974,0.0071 94,-0.022299,-0.017478,0.007329,0.003978,0.007953,0.001647,-0.000754,0.004502,0.016221,0,-0.013557,-0.023859,0.008502
-1643


Iberia_North_BA:VAD005,0.121791,0.157407,0.055437, 0.008721,0.072013,0.003347,-0.00188,-0.007154,0.03845,0.053942,-0.008931,0.005845,-0.015163,-0.018854,0.007057,0.013657,0.026729,0.006714,0.005 028,0.002626,0.006364,0.000742,-0.016392,-0.022172,-0.001796
-1639


Iberia_Northeast_BA:I4559,0.12862,0.14319,0.062979 ,0.006783,0.07386,-0.004462,0.006345,0.000231,0.047859,0.062689,0.000 325,0.008093,-0.021407,-0.020368,-0.000679,0.02254,0.015646,-0.005068,0.00176,0.013506,0.010731,0.004328,-0.010723,-0.016267,0.002395
-1600


Iberia_Northeast_BA:I4560,0.127482,0.151314,0.0599 62,0.008398,0.063704,-0.005578,-0.00658,0.004154,0.025361,0.061049,-0.008931,0.007793,-0.029435,-0.019267,-0.005157,0.009016,0.025816,0.001394,-0.005656,0.003752,0.003119,-0.006677,-0.015406,-0.015183,0.003233
-1600


Iberia_Northeast_BA:I4561,0.130897,0.144205,0.0644 88,0.011305,0.065858,0.004462,0.00235,0,0.041723,0 .054853,-0.003897,0.015137,-0.026164,-0.018029,-0.000271,0.003713,-0.002868,0.008108,0.006662,0.001751,0.015348,-0.003957,-0.016392,-0.014219,-0.001078
-1600


Iberia_Northeast_BA:I4563,0.126344,0.149283,0.0599 62,0.001615,0.072013,-0.00502,0.00235,-0.000923,0.035792,0.054124,-0.001786,0.010641,-0.027354,-0.023121,-0.001764,0.004243,0.002868,-0.000507,0.001885,0.00075,0.020214,-0.00136,-0.02391,-0.012532,-0.001557
-1600


Iberia_Northeast_BA:I1836,0.129758,0.157407,0.0584 54,-0.00323,0.059396,-0.000558,-0.00141,-0.003231,0.039064,0.04811,0.00065,0.006145,-0.029435,-0.021332,0.002443,0.011535,0.008214,0.000127,-0.00176,-0.001251,0.008859,0.010016,-0.007765,-0.016629,-0.007544
-1593


Iberia_North_BA:I2471,0.126344,0.155376,0.058077,-0.001292,0.063704,0.00251,0.000235,0.013153,0.0255 65,0.048839,-0.004384,0.010191,-0.018583,-0.005643,0.006107,-0.001193,-0.004042,0.006968,-0.005908,-0.002001,0.005989,0.011747,-0.009983,-0.003976,0.00455
-1541


Iberia_North_BA:I1840,0.127482,0.155376,0.059585,0 .003553,0.077245,-0.005299,-0.005405,0.003,0.034565,0.052484,-0.001624,0.014687,-0.020664,-0.018166,0.001764,0.018563,0.021122,0.002027,0.002 137,0.005628,0.010856,0.003586,-0.004067,-0.034463,0.010059
-1531


Iberia_Central_BA:I3490,0.129758,0.153345,0.070522 ,0.005168,0.069551,-0.006414,-0.00987,-0.003923,0.039678,0.05212,-0.004872,0.015886,-0.018285,-0.011147,0.008143,0.008221,0.008084,0.000507,0.002 765,-0.005127,0.007986,0.004451,-0.018487,-0.033258,-0.005149
-1500


Iberia_Southeast_BA:I8136,0.125205,0.15436,0.05392 8,-0.004845,0.069244,-0.006693,-0.00752,0.009,0.055221,0.06925,-0.001786,0.014687,-0.030773,-0.013487,0.000814,-0.001193,0.004172,-0.004181,0.010307,-0.007379,0.012104,0.003215,-0.002095,-0.020003,-0.005149
-1478


Iberia_Central_BA:I3493,0.127482,0.13405,0.050534,-0.001615,0.066782,-0.004183,-0.00752,0.006692,0.038655,0.050479,-0.012342,0.010491,-0.02557,-0.021332,0.010993,0.02148,0.011735,0.00114,-0.006034,0.002876,0.022336,0.005441,0.001972,-0.008435,0.008382
-1351


Iberia_North_BA:I2470,0.120652,0.158423,0.05506,0. 000969,0.062781,-0.007251,-0.00141,0.004384,0.041927,0.057951,-0.002761,0.007793,-0.016353,-0.011147,0.001357,-0.006497,-0.01369,0.011655,-0.005405,-0.014507,0.010606,0.001484,-0.012325,-0.0241,-0.002036
-1319


Iberia_Central_BA:I12208,0.119514,0.155376,0.04902 6,-0.001292,0.067089,-0.00753,-0.00141,-0.000692,0.044791,0.055582,0.00065,0.015736,-0.026016,-0.023946,0.006515,0.014585,0.024251,-0.006208,-0.004902,-0.003627,0.010232,-0.00272,-0.010969,-0.016629,-0.001557
-1300


Iberia_Central_BA:I12209,0.120652,0.147252,0.05883 1,-0.002907,0.068013,-0.005578,-0.001645,0.000923,0.037837,0.049022,0.000812,0.011 24,-0.025124,-0.022983,0.009772,0.012198,0.024121,0.001394,-0.006788,0.006378,0.009733,-0.006677,-0.008011,-0.017231,0.010418
-1300


Iberia_Southeast_BA:I8570,0.132035,0.155376,0.0573 22,-0.004522,0.058472,0.000279,-0.0047,0.002308,0.044995,0.05376,-0.001624,0.005695,-0.020069,-0.010046,0.00665,0.001326,-0.007041,-0.006714,0.00088,0.008879,0.008111,-0.002226,0.000246,-0.010242,-0.001197
-1150




Y estas son todas las muestras antiguas con el Haplogrupo R-DF27:



Lab name
Version-ID
Skeletal name
Y-DNA
mtDNA
SNPs
Date
Culture
Group
Label
Site
Country


GBVPK

GBVPK44_AMIS_2_02260
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195
J>J2>J2b>J2b1>J2b1a
-2387
Bell_Beaker
Bell Beaker France Pyrenean
Grotte Basse de la Vigne Perdue, les Monges
France


I0806
I0806
QLB28, QLB28b_10321, KC554010.1
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27
H>H1
138919
-2267
Bell_Beaker
BK_Germany_SAN
Germany_BellBeaker
Quedlinburg
Germany


I8561
I8561
Abisso del Vento 2017 (Grotto)
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195
K>K1>K1b>K1b1>K1b1-x
906209
-2262
Sicily_EBA
Sicily_EBA
Italy_Sicily_EBA_o1
Sicily, Isnello
Italy


I3123
I3123
BU31, grave 3031
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z198
U>U2'3'4'7'8'9>U8>U8b'c>U8b>U8b1>U8b1b>U8b1b1
898425
-2171
Sicily_EBA
Sicily_EBA
Italy_Sicily_EBA
Sicily, Buffa
Italy


I3756
I3756
TEBO'03, D8 UE12; Tumba 1
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12_1>FGC78762>BY21074>BY21075>FT5780
H>H1
604170
-1910
Iberia_BA
Cogotas I
Spain_EBA
Castillejo del Bonete, Terrinches, Ciudad Real, Castilla-La Mancha
Spain


I3494
I3494
CF-1
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12_1>BY3332
J>J1>J1c>J1c1>J1c1b
698862
-1831
Iberia_BA
SE_Iberia_BA
Spain_EBA
Coveta del Frare, La Font de la Figuera, València/Valencia, Valencian Community
Spain


OBE3626-1
OBE3626-1.SG
OBE3626-1
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12_1>Z225
R>R1>R1b
225156
-1824
France_EBA
Early Bronze Age
France_GrandEst_EBA.SG
Obernai
France


I1312
I1312_d
E-459_No6
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195
R>R0>HV>HV0>HV0-T195C!
157827
-1700
Iberia_BA
North-East Iberia BA
Spain_EBA
Can Roqueta II, Sabadell, Barcelona, Catalonia
Spain


VAD001
VAD001
E45
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12_1>Z225
U>U5>U5a'b>U5b>U5b1
570346
-1691
Iberia_BA
North Iberia BA
Spain_EBA
Valdescusa, Hervías, La Rioja
Spain


I6470
I6470
RISE912
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12_1>FT9510>FT10154
J>J1>J1c>J1c1
687251
-1659
Iberia_BA
Cogotas I
Spain_EBA
Virgazal, Tablada de Rudrón, Burgos, Castilla y León
Spain


I4563
I4563
GC.2.150.n170 and GC.2.149.n169
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z198>Y29886>PH1909>YP5900
R>R0>HV>H
420119
-1600
Iberia_BA
North-East Iberia BA
Spain_EBA_1d.rel.I4561
Galls Carboners, Mont-ral, Tarragona, Catalonia
Spain


I1840
I1840
ES.2/4-1
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12_1>BY3332>BY128991
H>H3>H3ap
661465
-1525
Iberia_BA
North Iberia BA
Spain_EBA
El Sotillo, Laguardia, Araba/Álava, Basque Country
Spain


esp005
esp005.SG
CL1, ERS2059523
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12_1>BY15963
K>K1>K1a
943381
-1450
Iberia_BA
Cogotas
Spain_BA.SG
Cueva de los Lagos, La Rioja
Spain


I12209
I12209
SRH-03
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27
H>H1>H1ah
899574
-1300
Iberia_BA
Cogotas I
Spain_MBA
La Requejada, San Román de Hornija, Valladolid, Castilla y León
Spain


I3315
I3315
NT14
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27
U>U5>U5a'b>U5b>U5b1>U5b1-T16189C!>U5b1c
798836
-859
Menorca_LBA
Menorca_LBA
Spain_LBA_Menorca_dup.I22306
Balearic Islands, Menorca, Naveta des Tudons
Spain


I3324
I3324
4976
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z274>Z209
H>H1
247012
-273
Iberia_IA
Iberian culture
Spain_IA_o
Puig de Sant Andreu, Ullastret, Girona, Catalonia
Spain


I3496
I3496_published
MC-1573
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z198>ZS312>BY3214>CTS9993
H>H1>H1e>H1e1>H1e1a
136968
-250
Iberia_IA
Iberian culture
Spain_IA_published
Turó de Ca n’Oliver, Cerdanyola, Barcelona, Catalonia
Spain


I3320
I3320
S-EVA 9305; Ind 1
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12_1>Z225
N>N1'5>N1>N1a>N1a1'2>N1a1>N1a1b>I>I1
403351
-200
Iberia_IA
Iberian culture
Spain_IA_published
Els Estrets de la Rata, Vilafamés, Castelló/Castellón, Valencian Community
Spain


UN85


R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27
H>H2>H2a>H2a2>H2a2a
183736
-200
France_IA
Gaul

Urville-Nacqueville necropolis
France


I8206
I8206
12-SU-33-A4-T680
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27
H>H7>H7a>H7a1
425016
-153
Iberia_Hel
NE Iberia Hellenistic (Empúries1)
Spain_Hellenistic_oLocal
Empúries, Girona, Catalonia
Spain


I3576
I3576
sepultura 27
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12_1>BY3332>PH4023>PH3162
T>T2>T2c>T2c1>T2c1a>T2c1a2
825464
482
Iberia_EMA
SE_Iberia_c.5-8CE
Spain_Visigoth_Granada
El Castillón, Montefrío, Granada, Andalusia
Spain


I3582
I3582
sepultura 77
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z274>Z209>FGC83504>Z295>Z270>Z211
K>K1>K1b>K1b1>K1b1-x>K1b1a
332438
500
Iberia_EMA
SE_Iberia_c.5-8CE
Spain_Visigoth_Granada
El Castillón, Montefrío, Granada, Andalusia
Spain


SZ5
SZ5.SG
SZO005.A0101, SRR6703600
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z198>ZS312>FGC39110>BY3195>BY3194
J>J2>J2b>J2b1
1176362
508
Germanic
Longobard migration
Hungary_Langobard.SG
Szólád, Hungary
Hungary


B67


R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z274>Z209>FGC83504>Z295>Z270>Z211>Z297>CTS2608>Z278>Z697>Z214>Z279>CTS8087>M153
R>R0>HV>H
600
Iberia_EMA
North Iberia Early Middle Ages
Aldaieta
Spain


B68


R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z274>Z209>FGC83504>Z295>Z270>Z211>Z297>CTS2608>Z278>Z697>Z214>Z279>CTS8087>M153
R>R0>HV>H
600
Iberia_EMA
North Iberia Early Middle Ages
Aldaieta
Spain


VK329
VK329.SG
Denmark_Ribe 8
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z274>Z209>FGC83504>Z295>S25783>CTS4065>S16864>S18894
H>H3>H3-T152C!
800874
767
Viking
Viking Denmark
Denmark_Viking.SG
Jutland
Denmark


I7672
I7672
T-120-1
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z198>ZS312>Z267>SRY2627>Z200>Z202
T>T2>T2h
57994
797
Iberia_EMA
North East Iberia Early Medieval
Spain_Carolingian
L'Esquerda, Roda de Ter, Barcelona, Catalonia
Spain


VK87
VK87.SG
Denmark_Hesselbjerg Grav 41b, sk PC
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z198
K>K1>K1c>K1c2
1049625
875
Viking
Viking Denmark
Denmark_Viking.SG
Jutland
Denmark


VK166
VK166.SG
UK_Oxford_#4; UK_Oxford_sk 1891
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z198>ZS312>Z267>SRY2627>Z200>Z202>Z205>CTS606>FT406551>CTS5337>CTS3555>BY814>Z29713>A7101>Y30608>BY67003>BY129880>BY45170
H>H3>H3ag
1087312
940
Viking
Viking UK
England_Viking.SG
Oxford
UK


VK147
VK147.SG
UK_Oxford_#11; UK_Oxford_sk 1864
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z274>DF17>CTS13028>FT44718>FGC14113>BY31082>Y31431>Y75899
T>T1>T1a>T1a-T152C!>T1a1'3>T1a1>T1a1q
617085
940
Viking
Viking UK
England_Viking.SG
Oxford
UK


VK365
VK365.SG
Denmark_Bogovej BS
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12_1>BY3289>Y6954>Y6951>Y6949>Y15637>BY34800
U>U2'3'4'7'8'9>U8>U8a>U8a2
628877
950
Viking
Viking Denmark
Denmark_Viking.SG
Langeland
Denmark


VK261
VK261.SG
UK_Dorset-3736
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12_1>FGC78762>ZZ19_1>Z31644>FGC78763>FGC13128>BY64643
H>H-T152C!>H52
749188
997
Viking
Viking UK
England_Viking.SG
Dorset
UK


VK403
VK403.SG
Sweden_Skara 217
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z198>ZS312>Z267>SRY2627>Z200>Z202>Z205>Z206>BY3222
K>K1>K1a>K1a4>K1a4a>K1a4a1>K1a4a1a>K1a4a1a2>K1a4a1a2b
891640
1050
Viking
Viking Sweden
Sweden_Viking.SG
Skara
Sweden


SI-41
SI-41.SG
SI-41
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27
V>V40
1090200
1240
Levant_MA
Lebanon Middle Ages
Lebanon_Medieval_o1.SG
Sidon
Lebanon


SNN002
SNN002
SSSN 02 1065
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z274
H>H1>H1j>H1j2>H1j2a
138309
1346
Sardinia_MA
Sardinia Medieval
Italy_Sardinia_Medieval
Sassari, SAS
Italy


R1220
R1220.SG
RMPR-1220
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12_1>FGC78762>BY21074>BY21075>FT5780>PH2781
T>T2>T2r
781723
1485
Italy_Renaissance
Rome_Medieval/EarlyModern
Italy_Medieval_EarlyModern_oCentralEuropean.SG
Cancelleria
Italy


win001

win001_bone
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z274>Z209>FGC83504>Z295>Z270>Z211>Z297>CTS2608>Z278>PH1171>S8067>BY54766
H>H3>H3b>H3b7
1642
Sweden_Early_Modern
Sweden Early Modern
Lund Cathedral
Sweden


win002

win002_bone
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z274>DF17>CTS13028>FT44718>A4658>FT56517>BY27644>BY1806
U>U5>U5a'b>U5a>U5a1>U5a1-T16192C!>U5a1a>U5a1a1
1642
Sweden_Early_Modern
Sweden Early Modern
Lund Cathedral
Sweden

alejandromb92
06-17-2021, 12:18 PM
He utilizado una página que me pasó mokordo y me ploteé aquí:

45203

https://cladefinder.yseq.net/

castrogonzalo
06-17-2021, 03:27 PM
https://cladefinder.yseq.net/

Parece interesante pero dice 23andMe | AncestryDNA | MyHeritage | VCF, y no se si valen mis resultados de LivingDNA. Si valen, ¿es el fichero de resultados y hg sólo o también el mtdn hg? ¿o el que he utilizado en Eurogenes (creo que es el autosomal)? Muchas gracias a todos los que me estáis ayudando

castrogonzalo
06-17-2021, 03:47 PM
https://cladefinder.yseq.net/

Subí mi ydna.cvs de LivingDNA y no lo acepta: "unable to determine clade due to no positive SNPs" ...

alejandromb92
06-17-2021, 03:55 PM
Parece interesante pero dice 23andMe | AncestryDNA | MyHeritage | VCF, y no se si valen mis resultados de LivingDNA. Si valen, ¿es el fichero de resultados y hg sólo o también el mtdn hg? ¿o el que he utilizado en Eurogenes (creo que es el autosomal)? Muchas gracias a todos los que me estáis ayudando

El mismo fichero que usaste para gedmatch lo usas para esta pagina. Te da un resultado de inmediato de tu Y-DNA, que posiblemente sea el mismo que te dieron previamente pero alguna que otra sorpresa se ha llevado la gente.


Subí mi ydna.cvs de LivingDNA y no lo acepta: "unable to determine clade due to no positive SNPs" ...

Eso esta raro. Ahora que lo pienso, creo que el formato que te arroja LivingDNA en cuando a haplogrupos son SNPs diferentes a los que usan las otras empresas y por lo tanto esta herramienta no te hace la lectura.

castrogonzalo
06-19-2021, 05:38 PM
Hola. Inicio este hilo para continuar una conversación que se inició en el de "Resultados de ibéricos" y que se quedaba un poco fuera. El título explica el objetivo y busco que alguien pueda aclarar una etapa que se conoce solo a través de la arqueología y la genética, campos en los que yo no soy experto.

Por seguir con el tema "De 4000 BC a 1000 BC de prehistoria en la península Ibérica", empezaría con un hecho. Hay un paper de nature titulado "Ancient genomes indicate population replacement in Early Neolithic Britain" (S. Brace, 2019) que sitúa la aparición de los primeros neolíticos en 4000 BC. Revelan afinidad genética con individuos neolíticos ibéricos lo que indica que la gente neolítica de las islas Británicas fueron agricultores del Egeo que siguieron la ruta del Mediterráneo. Podemos apuntar algunas conclusiones:

1. Estos neolíticos tenían unos conocimientos importantes de agricultura, evidentemente, pero también de navegación, de arquitectura (para construir las estructuras megalíticas como Stonehenge), de astronomía (para alinearlas según el equinoccio y también para navegar), de geometría, y posiblemente de más materias.
2. Dado que hubo también una ruta terrestre desde Anatolia, esto demuestra que fue más exitosa la del Mediterráneo pues llegó antes a las islas Británicas.
3. Si llegaron a las islas, es muy probable que también llegaran a las costas atlánticas de Europa (norte de Francia, Alemania, etc.) y allí se re-encontraran con sus hermanos de la ruta terrestre.
4. El haplogrupo y de estos agricultores era fundamentalmente I y H (en Atapuerca H2 y I2a2a).
5. De la misma forma que hicieron la ruta hacia el NE, eran capaces de regresar y en ese flujo-reflujo crear una red de intercambio que tuvo tiempo de perfeccionarse hasta el 3000 BC.

Si alguien puede aportar, me interesa saber los puntos que son correctos y que podemos dejar por sentados y los que no lo son y tendré que eliminarlos.

Shadogowah
07-09-2021, 06:28 AM
Por seguir con el tema "De 4000 BC a 1000 BC de prehistoria en la península Ibérica", empezaría con un hecho. Hay un paper de nature titulado "Ancient genomes indicate population replacement in Early Neolithic Britain" (S. Brace, 2019) que sitúa la aparición de los primeros neolíticos en 4000 BC. Revelan afinidad genética con individuos neolíticos ibéricos lo que indica que la gente neolítica de las islas Británicas fueron agricultores del Egeo que siguieron la ruta del Mediterráneo. Podemos apuntar algunas conclusiones:

1. Estos neolíticos tenían unos conocimientos importantes de agricultura, evidentemente, pero también de navegación, de arquitectura (para construir las estructuras megalíticas como Stonehenge), de astronomía (para alinearlas según el equinoccio y también para navegar), de geometría, y posiblemente de más materias.
2. Dado que hubo también una ruta terrestre desde Anatolia, esto demuestra que fue más exitosa la del Mediterráneo pues llegó antes a las islas Británicas.
3. Si llegaron a las islas, es muy probable que también llegaran a las costas atlánticas de Europa (norte de Francia, Alemania, etc.) y allí se re-encontraran con sus hermanos de la ruta terrestre.
4. El haplogrupo y de estos agricultores era fundamentalmente I y H (en Atapuerca H2 y I2a2a).
5. De la misma forma que hicieron la ruta hacia el NE, eran capaces de regresar y en ese flujo-reflujo crear una red de intercambio que tuvo tiempo de perfeccionarse hasta el 3000 BC.

Si alguien puede aportar, me interesa saber los puntos que son correctos y que podemos dejar por sentados y los que no lo son y tendré que eliminarlos.

1. https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doggerland

No tengo claro que tuviesen conocimientos importantes de navegación. Para el 4000 BC Doggerland probablemente no era tierra emergida pero las mareas en el canal de la Mancha son hoy bestiales, quizás también entonces. Así que supongo que durante un tiempo habría pasos que permitirían cruzar arrastrando barcazas y quizás subirse a ellas y anclarlas cuando la marea subía. Un poco como ocurre hoy en el Mar de Frisia donde existen pasos que incluso permiten cruzar el mar con marea alta.

https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mar_de_Frisia

castrogonzalo
07-24-2021, 06:02 PM
1. https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doggerland

No tengo claro que tuviesen conocimientos importantes de navegación. Para el 4000 BC Doggerland probablemente no era tierra emergida pero las mareas en el canal de la Mancha son hoy bestiales, quizás también entonces. Así que supongo que durante un tiempo habría pasos que permitirían cruzar arrastrando barcazas y quizás subirse a ellas y anclarlas cuando la marea subía. Un poco como ocurre hoy en el Mar de Frisia donde existen pasos que incluso permiten cruzar el mar con marea alta.

https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mar_de_Frisia

Gracias por tu comentario @Shadogowah.

Incluso poniendo en duda la llegada por mar a las islas británicas, esos neolíticos vinieron navegando por todo el Mediterráneo y entraron a esas islas antes que los que siguieron la ruta terrestre, y en número suficiente como para marcar genéticamente a las poblaciones de esa época. Otro dato más, había comercio entre las islas y el continente, entre la península y Cerdeña, entre la península itálica y el territorio de lo que es hoy Túnez, entre Chipre y Anatolia, ... Poseían unos conocimientos de navegación que les permitía mover grandes cantidades de materiales y de personas de forma habitual, según yo lo veo.

Shadogowah
07-25-2021, 05:11 AM
Cómo digo, yo estoy casi seguro que las islas británicas estaban unidas al continente aunque fuese de forma intermitente.

Navegación en cualquier caso creo que implica abandonar la costa y perderla de vista. Seguramente sí costeaban (cabotaje), pero navegar lo que se dice navegar me parece más dudoso.

Respecto al Mediterráneo, la arqueología submarina nos ha desvelado la existencia de ciudades sumergidas. El nivel del mar era mucho más bajo y el perfil de las costas era muy diferente al de hoy. Ej. La mitad del Adriático era tierra emergida, no existía el estrecho de Mesina, Córcega y Cerdeña estaban unidas, etc...

El nivel del mar creo que siguió subiendo cuando está gente ya había llegado y quizás fuese una de las razones que los empujó a establecerse cada vez más hacia el interior.

Tengo que buscar algún mapa sobre cómo era el Mediterráneo oriental por entonces.

castrogonzalo
08-02-2021, 09:45 AM
Por seguir con el tema "De 4000 BC a 1000 BC de prehistoria en la península Ibérica", empezaría con un hecho. Hay un paper de nature titulado "Ancient genomes indicate population replacement in Early Neolithic Britain" (S. Brace, 2019) que sitúa la aparición de los primeros neolíticos en 4000 BC. Revelan afinidad genética con individuos neolíticos ibéricos lo que indica que la gente neolítica de las islas Británicas fueron agricultores del Egeo que siguieron la ruta del Mediterráneo. Podemos apuntar algunas conclusiones:

1. Estos neolíticos tenían unos conocimientos importantes de agricultura, evidentemente, pero también de navegación, de arquitectura (para construir las estructuras megalíticas como Stonehenge), de astronomía (para alinearlas según el equinoccio y también para navegar), de geometría, y posiblemente de más materias.
2. Dado que hubo también una ruta terrestre desde Anatolia, esto demuestra que fue más exitosa la del Mediterráneo pues llegó antes a las islas Británicas.
3. Si llegaron a las islas, es muy probable que también llegaran a las costas atlánticas de Europa (norte de Francia, Alemania, etc.) y allí se re-encontraran con sus hermanos de la ruta terrestre.
4. El haplogrupo y de estos agricultores era fundamentalmente I y H (en Atapuerca H2 y I2a2a).
5. De la misma forma que hicieron la ruta hacia el NE, eran capaces de regresar y en ese flujo-reflujo crear una red de intercambio que tuvo tiempo de perfeccionarse hasta el 3000 BC.

Si alguien puede aportar, me interesa saber los puntos que son correctos y que podemos dejar por sentados y los que no lo son y tendré que eliminarlos.

Sigo ...

En un foro de eupedia publicaron un mapa de celtas Hallstatt (800 BC) y le he añadido los resultados de individuos R1b con cultura IE o PIE que llegaron a principios del 3er milenio BC. A mi me parece que el resultado es interesante. Se aceptan otras opiniones ...

I have plotted 3000-2000 BCE R1b individuals in the @bicicleur map (Spain, France and Switzerland). Obviously, data fit the Hallstatt territory. In Iberia seems that these IE or PIE people control the Atlantic shore and the non-IE people control the Mediterranean shore.



Final eneolithic
l Y-Simbol2: R1bV88, 3248 BCE. Sardinia, Italy, MarcusNatCommun2020 (Blue Circle)

Early Chalcolithic
l Y-Simbol2: R1bV88, 2550 BCE. Barcelona, Spain, OlaladeNature2018 (Pink Circle)
l YTree: R1b-M12149, 2768 BCE. Croatia, MathiesonNature2018 (Pink star)

Late Chalcolithic (Red star)
l YTree: R1b-P310, 2350 BCE. Asturias, Spain, OlaladeScience2019
l YTree: R1b-U152, 2127 BCE. Burgos, Spain, OlaladeScience2019
l YTree: R1b-P312, 2417 BCE. Burgos, Spain, OlaladeScience2019
l YTree: R1b-L51, 2171 BCE. Burgos, Spain, OlaladeScience2019
l YTree: R1b-PF6658, 2250 BCE. Madrid, Spain, OlaladeNature2018
l YTree: R1b-P310, 2250 BCE. Madrid, Spain, OlaladeNature2018
l YTree: R1b-P312, 2250 BCE. Madrid, Spain, OlaladeScience2019
l YTree: R1b-P310, 2124 BCE. Ciudad Real, Spain, OlaladeScience2019

l YTree: R1b-Z195, 2387 BCE. Les Monges, France, SeguinOrlandoCurrBiol2021
l YTree: R1b-L151, 2220 BCE. Valros, France, BrunelPNAS2020
l YTree: R1b-M269, 2373 BCE. La Fare, France, OlaladeNature2018
l YTree: R1b-L151, 2248 BCE. Haute-Savoie, France, OlaladeNature2018

l YTree: R1b-P310, 2725 BCE. Auvernier, Switzerland, FurtwaenglerNatCommun2020
l YTree: R1b-M269, 2225 BCE. Sion-Petit-Chasseur, Switzerland, OlaladeNature2018
l YTree: R1b-M269, 2722 BCE. Burg?Chisee, Switzerland, FurtwaenglerNatCommun2020
l YTree: R1b-L151, 2682 BCE. Aesch, Switzerland, FurtwaenglerNatCommun2020

45847

mokordo
08-02-2021, 10:45 AM
Sigo ...

En un foro de eupedia publicaron un mapa de celtas Hallstatt (800 BC) y le he añadido los resultados de individuos R1b con cultura IE o PIE que llegaron a principios del 3er milenio BC. A mi me parece que el resultado es interesante. Se aceptan otras opiniones ...

I have plotted 3000-2000 BCE R1b individuals in the @bicicleur map (Spain, France and Switzerland). Obviously, data fit the Hallstatt territory. In Iberia seems that these IE or PIE people control the Atlantic shore and the non-IE people control the Mediterranean shore.



Final eneolithic
l Y-Simbol2: R1bV88, 3248 BCE. Sardinia, Italy, MarcusNatCommun2020 (Blue Circle)

Early Chalcolithic
l Y-Simbol2: R1bV88, 2550 BCE. Barcelona, Spain, OlaladeNature2018 (Pink Circle)
l YTree: R1b-M12149, 2768 BCE. Croatia, MathiesonNature2018 (Pink star)

Late Chalcolithic (Red star)
l YTree: R1b-P310, 2350 BCE. Asturias, Spain, OlaladeScience2019
l YTree: R1b-U152, 2127 BCE. Burgos, Spain, OlaladeScience2019
l YTree: R1b-P312, 2417 BCE. Burgos, Spain, OlaladeScience2019
l YTree: R1b-L51, 2171 BCE. Burgos, Spain, OlaladeScience2019
l YTree: R1b-PF6658, 2250 BCE. Madrid, Spain, OlaladeNature2018
l YTree: R1b-P310, 2250 BCE. Madrid, Spain, OlaladeNature2018
l YTree: R1b-P312, 2250 BCE. Madrid, Spain, OlaladeScience2019
l YTree: R1b-P310, 2124 BCE. Ciudad Real, Spain, OlaladeScience2019

l YTree: R1b-Z195, 2387 BCE. Les Monges, France, SeguinOrlandoCurrBiol2021
l YTree: R1b-L151, 2220 BCE. Valros, France, BrunelPNAS2020
l YTree: R1b-M269, 2373 BCE. La Fare, France, OlaladeNature2018
l YTree: R1b-L151, 2248 BCE. Haute-Savoie, France, OlaladeNature2018

l YTree: R1b-P310, 2725 BCE. Auvernier, Switzerland, FurtwaenglerNatCommun2020
l YTree: R1b-M269, 2225 BCE. Sion-Petit-Chasseur, Switzerland, OlaladeNature2018
l YTree: R1b-M269, 2722 BCE. Burg?Chisee, Switzerland, FurtwaenglerNatCommun2020
l YTree: R1b-L151, 2682 BCE. Aesch, Switzerland, FurtwaenglerNatCommun2020

45847

Si pudiéramos buscar todos o muchos esos samples en el G25 u otros datasheets de diferentes calculadores de Gedmatch, podríamos hacer un modelo sobre el tema.

Es un tema muy propio de Gaska (un antiguo miembro de este foro y que creo que está en Eupedia ahora), igual hasta ese post es suyo.

castrogonzalo
08-02-2021, 12:01 PM
Si pudiéramos buscar todos o muchos esos samples en el G25 u otros datasheets de diferentes calculadores de Gedmatch, podríamos hacer un modelo sobre el tema.

Es un tema muy propio de Gaska (un antiguo miembro de este foro y que creo que está en Eupedia ahora), igual hasta ese post es suyo.

Un afectuoso saludo, mokordo!

El mapa "céltico" lo subió el forero bicicleur. Yo le agregué los puntos con datos genéticos sacados de una página de indoeuropeo. No estoy seguro, pero posiblemente gaska esté baneado :ban:.

A mi me resulta muy interesante ver cómo los R1b estepeños de lengua IE (indoeuropea) o PIE (pre-indoeuropea PIE) van avanzando por europa desde el este. No hay rastro de ellos en el eneolithic y en el early chalcolithic sólo aparecen en Croacia. En el late chalcolithic inundan el centro de Europa, las islas británicas, Francia y nuestra península. Fíjate que su distribución no es uniforme en toda la península, sino que coincide con la zona celta y celtibérica de finales del 1er milenio BC. No hay restos ni en el País Vasco ni en Cataluña, por donde hipotéticamente deberían haber entrado a la península y que son territorios no-indoeuropeo. Cuando vi el mapa Hallstatt de toda Europa me decidí a añadirle los puntos y todo parece muy coherente. Está claro que los celtas de Hallastatt deberían ser descendientes de los IE y aquí se ve claro. Si tengo tiempo seguiré añadiendo los muchos datos que faltan pero ya te adelanto que todos quedan dentro de la zona amarilla del mapa. Fíjate también que esa conexión entre R1b's (Iberia-centro de Europa) está interrumpida por tierra pero ¿y por mar? en 2500 BC sabían navegar muy bien. El Arquero de Amesbury (Inglaterra, 2300 BC) había nacido en los Alpes y esa gente entraron en las islas y dieron un vuelco genético.

Las samples se saben cuáles son, de hecho yo puse las fuentes (Olalde 2018, Olalde 2019, Furtwaengler 2020, etc.) y se pueden buscar. Si me dices cómo, podría ayudarte a buscarlas en G25 para que hicieras el modelo. ;)

Shadogowah
08-02-2021, 12:04 PM
Muestras antiguas a cascoporro.

https://indo-european.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=e355625d5fbe46469cfdc85fce6eb04a

castrogonzalo
08-02-2021, 12:06 PM
Muestras antiguas a cascoporro.

https://indo-european.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=e355625d5fbe46469cfdc85fce6eb04a

¡De ahí las saqué yo! :beerchug:

castrogonzalo
08-02-2021, 12:17 PM
Muestras antiguas a cascoporro.

https://indo-european.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=e355625d5fbe46469cfdc85fce6eb04a


Como es interactivo, puedes jugar con las muestras.

Si tienes tiempo, prueba a apagar todas las capas, concéntrate en Europa y activa la capa ydna del early chalcolithic. Verás que no hay nada de R1b-IE ni en Iberia, ni en Francia, ni en las islas británicas. Ahora apaga esa capa y activa la de ydna del late chalcolithic, verás como se inunda todo de muestras R1b-IE.

Shadogowah
08-02-2021, 12:18 PM
Un afectuoso saludo, mokordo!

El mapa "céltico" lo subió el forero bicicleur. Yo le agregué los puntos con datos genéticos sacados de una página de indoeuropeo. No estoy seguro, pero posiblemente gaska esté baneado :ban:.

A mi me resulta muy interesante ver cómo los R1b estepeños de lengua IE (indoeuropea) o PIE (pre-indoeuropea PIE) van avanzando por europa desde el este. No hay rastro de ellos en el eneolithic y en el early chalcolithic sólo aparecen en Croacia. En el late chalcolithic inundan el centro de Europa, las islas británicas, Francia y nuestra península. Fíjate que su distribución no es uniforme en toda la península, sino que coincide con la zona celta y celtibérica de finales del 1er milenio BC. No hay restos ni en el País Vasco ni en Cataluña, por donde hipotéticamente deberían haber entrado a la península y que son territorios no-indoeuropeo. Cuando vi el mapa Hallstatt de toda Europa me decidí a añadirle los puntos y todo parece muy coherente. Está claro que los celtas de Hallastatt deberían ser descendientes de los IE y aquí se ve claro. Si tengo tiempo seguiré añadiendo los muchos datos que faltan pero ya te adelanto que todos quedan dentro de la zona amarilla del mapa. Fíjate también que esa conexión entre R1b's (Iberia-centro de Europa) está interrumpida por tierra pero ¿y por mar? en 2500 BC sabían navegar muy bien. El Arquero de Amesbury (Inglaterra, 2300 BC) había nacido en los Alpes y esa gente entraron en las islas y dieron un vuelco genético.

Las samples se saben cuáles son, de hecho yo puse las fuentes (Olalde 2018, Olalde 2019, Furtwaengler 2020, etc.) y se pueden buscar. Si me dices cómo, podría ayudarte a buscarlas en G25 para que hicieras el modelo. ;)

No se si estoy diciendo una perogrullada pero creo que llegaron costeando por mar desde el Mediterráneo (estos si) buscando bronce y estaño y que así es como penetraron por el sudeste de España y sur de Portugal (Cerro de la Virgen y Zambujal) unos cuantos siglos después ya se habrían extendido por toda Andalucía.

castrogonzalo
08-02-2021, 01:15 PM
No se si estoy diciendo una perogrullada pero creo que llegaron costeando por mar desde el Mediterráneo (estos si) buscando bronce y estaño y que así es como penetraron por el sudeste de España y sur de Portugal (Cerro de la Virgen y Zambujal) unos cuantos siglos después ya se habrían extendido por toda Andalucía.

Algunos datos sobre la navegación en 2500 BC. Esto lo escribí en otro foro.

Interesting news about prehistoric naviagation, a very important human discovery not always recognised. The log-boat (a boat made from a hollowed tree) was around 5.5 m length. Several logboats have been securely dated in Ireland as early as the Early Bronze Age (c.2500 BC). Some of them with about 12 m with a large crew of 10-12 men. Another type, sewn-plank boats were large boats, up to 18 m in length with room for a crew of 20 or more, and with a greater freeboard than logboats; overall they are likely to have been capable of successful seafaring journeys.

Como referencia, La Niña cruzó el Atlántico con 21 m de eslora y una tripulación de 20 hombres, 4000 años después. :eek:

Shadogowah
08-02-2021, 01:45 PM
Algunos datos sobre la navegación en 2500 BC. Esto lo escribí en otro foro.

Interesting news about prehistoric naviagation, a very important human discovery not always recognised. The log-boat (a boat made from a hollowed tree) was around 5.5 m length. Several logboats have been securely dated in Ireland as early as the Early Bronze Age (c.2500 BC). Some of them with about 12 m with a large crew of 10-12 men. Another type, sewn-plank boats were large boats, up to 18 m in length with room for a crew of 20 or more, and with a greater freeboard than logboats; overall they are likely to have been capable of successful seafaring journeys.

Como referencia, La Niña cruzó el Atlántico con 21 m de eslora y una tripulación de 20 hombres, 4000 años después. :eek:

Y con brújulas, astrolabios y conocimientos de cartografía (Y patrones de viento!) mucho más avanzados. (No se trata solo de tener buenos barcos).

Cruzar el Canal de la Mancha o estrecho de San Jorge es una cosa pero cruzar el Atlántico es ya otra cosa mucho más seria.

castrogonzalo
08-02-2021, 08:09 PM
I have plotted 3000-2000 BCE R1b individuals in the @bicicleur map (Spain, France and Switzerland). Obviously, data fit the Hallstatt territory. In Iberia seems that these IE or PIE people control the Atlantic shore and the non-IE people control the Mediterranean shore.


Mapa actualizado con datos de Europa:

45853

mokordo
08-03-2021, 09:53 AM
Para variar, un modelito antiguo, a ver quien gana en "bronze age invaders".

Podría ser el nombre de un videojuego...:P


Neolithic_Europe:Iberia_N,0.1239407,0.1755737,0.03 41921,-0.0626261,0.0768007,-0.0339317,-0.004439,-0.0011793,0.0618117,0.0996021,0.0021292,0.015586,-0.0343077,-0.0108723,-0.0189858,-0.0058929,0.0074029,0.001844,0.0048463,-0.0070036,0.002468,0.0035996,-0.008148,-0.0235909,9.3e-05
Neolithic_Europe:BGR_N,0.120368,0.183049,0.0082968 ,-0.086241,0.0510865,-0.0429492,0.00235,-0.002942,0.0388085,0.085742,0.0137622,0.0133382,-0.0244175,-0.0001377,-0.0350498,-0.0144855,0.0216762,0.0030408,0.007982,-0.0117242,-0.0129145,0.0094902,-0.0033585,-0.0052118,-0.005269
Neolithic_Europe:CZE_N,0.122929,0.1843185,0.019422 ,-0.0773585,0.064627,-0.0444835,-0.009165,0.001385,0.0488815,0.084102,0.001299,0.01 78345,-0.0246775,0.0060555,-0.027619,-0.011403,0.0042375,0.0032935,0.01169,-0.01507,-0.005553,0.010201,-0.012078,-0.0103625,-0.004012
Neolithic_Europe:GRC_N,0.118376,0.18178,-0.001131,-0.105622,0.057241,-0.051037,-0.00423,-0.003923,0.039064,0.090207,0.003735,0.013638,-0.019177,-0.007569,-0.046959,-0.004243,0.040028,0.003927,0.004022,-0.013506,-0.012228,0.014096,0.00037,0.001325,-0.004311
Neolithic_Europe:HUN_Starcevo_N,0.122246,0.1886854 ,0.0077688,-0.0985152,0.0593956,-0.0521526,-0.0032432,-0.0068304,0.0448726,0.0865622,0.008217,0.0126786,-0.0229534,0.0046514,-0.0378388,-0.0226466,0.0074318,0.002179,0.0110612,-0.0154824,-0.0138756,0.0108072,-0.0017254,-0.0052776,-0.0043348
Neolithic_Europe:ITA_Sardinia_N,0.1201974,0.174874 2,0.0429918,-0.0535534,0.0780454,-0.029172,-0.006392,0.0015692,0.0629932,0.094289,0.0031506,0. 0159756,-0.0350544,-0.0134594,-0.0193538,-0.0040042,0.0115,-0.0011148,0.0076926,-0.008329,0.0036184,0.003586,-0.015258,-0.0290884,0.0016286
Neolithic_Europe:ITA_N,0.1246362,0.1774638,0.01385 9,-0.0751782,0.0597805,-0.0377198,-0.0025262,-0.0014422,0.0414162,0.084694,0.0013802,0.0142372,-0.0270562,-0.00289,-0.026669,-0.0019558,0.0156135,0.0035475,0.0073848,-0.0041895,-0.002589,0.0029367,-0.0081343,-0.017141,0.0007482
Neolithic_Europe:ROU_N,0.126913,0.1848265,0.011125 ,-0.0999685,0.05878,-0.0541045,-0.00094,-0.004615,0.0459155,0.091574,0.0043845,0.013563,-0.027428,0.0013765,-0.0468235,-0.0113365,0.024838,0.0012035,0.0117525,-0.012318,-0.014662,0.0054405,-0.006532,0.0038555,-0.0070055
Neolithic_Europe:SRB_N,0.1277662,0.1822878,0.01074 8,-0.0957695,0.0574722,-0.0440648,-0.00094,-0.005769,0.039013,0.0868812,0.0036942,0.0131508,-0.022262,0.0014108,-0.0391552,-0.01369,0.0202748,0.000697,0.0124128,-0.0138505,-0.007331,0.0062138,-0.0083192,0.0020182,5.98e-05
Neolithic_Europe:Wales_N,0.12236,0.1675625,0.04940 25,-0.0421515,0.0829385,-0.0207775,-0.003995,-0.000808,0.0583915,0.085013,-0.002111,0.0109405,-0.031665,-0.0063305,-0.0109935,-0.00716,0.0065845,0.002217,-0.0023885,-0.004752,0.014911,0.006677,-0.0162075,-0.0409095,-0.001916
Neolithic_Europe:Scotland_N,0.1269127,0.1690178,0. 0542928,-0.0322677,0.0862828,-0.0224879,-0.0037679,0.0030922,0.0634297,0.0853533,-0.0002544,0.0123091,-0.0271157,-0.0115236,-0.0072611,0.0027269,0.0076274,0.0045017,0.0042653,-0.0041436,0.0120538,0.0032151,-0.0154018,-0.0339485,-0.0001358
Neolithic_Europe:England_N,0.1257112,0.1700446,0.0 558139,-0.0370732,0.0841866,-0.0225592,-0.0048307,0.0018717,0.0641522,0.0895791,0.0026342, 0.013388,-0.0261313,-0.0128294,-0.0092139,0.0046407,0.0148638,0.0027167,0.0030586,-0.000264,0.0108697,0.0025142,-0.014379,-0.031477,0.0003326
Bronze_Age_Invaders:AN10,0.1242948,0.0883510,0.043 6707,0.1151505,-0.0285283,0.0451246,0.0043710,-0.0021923,-0.0563668,-0.0732041,0.0018024,0.0009291,-0.0029287,-0.0225426,0.0358843,0.0144389,-0.0011735,-0.0042316,-0.0040350,0.0123809,-0.0037808,0.0000741,0.0072346,0.0193519,-0.0029337
Bronze_Age_Invaders::BN10,0.1160995,0.0872339,0.04 00881,0.1102730,-0.0310825,0.0437021,0.0032196,-0.0054228,-0.0573076,-0.0751905,-0.0004059,-0.0022330,-0.0009812,-0.0235335,0.0315685,0.0104348,-0.0031815,-0.0024704,-0.0011188,0.0094544,-0.0050411,0.0015704,0.0124357,0.0203281,-0.0051253
Levant:PPNB,0.0725625,0.1650235,-0.0309238,-0.1380835,0.0323138,-0.062541,-0.012103,-0.0141338,0.0735775,0.0367207,0.0194055,-0.0170098,0.036459,-0.000241,-0.021342,0.0067288,0.0089638,-0.0013935,-0.0054052,0.0192277,-0.0037435,0.007852,-0.0014175,-0.0062658,-0.0047002
North_Africa_Neolithic:MAR_EN+LN,-0.0759773,0.1200863,-0.0112193,-0.0894710,0.0378528,-0.0570333,-0.0535235,0.0151150,0.1169368,0.0292488,0.0211918,-0.0123268,0.0390605,-0.0375368,0.0368480,-0.0119330,0.0249358,-0.0347760,-0.0913508,0.0167893,-0.0282940,-0.0701110,0.0472043,-0.0099110,0.0087120
Ancient_Africa:CMR_Shum_Laka_3000BP,-0.6129375,0.0528075,0.013765,0.0272935,0.000769,-0.001813,0.1482915,-0.1137645,0.00542,0.004374,-0.001056,-0.0400145,-0.025272,0.0019955,0.008279,-0.0068285,0.005802,0.016153,-0.0067245,0.0010005,-0.001934,-0.0020405,-0.00456,0.000482,-0.006586
Ancient_Africa:CMR_Shum_Laka_8000BP,-0.602693,0.055346,0.0148965,0.0263245,-0.0064625,0.00502,0.1243205,-0.099919,0.0138055,-0.007016,-0.00065,-0.0242785,-0.0203665,-0.0052295,0.0021035,-0.00179,0.0127125,0.017356,-0.0011945,-0.0040645,-0.003494,-0.000371,0.0016025,-0.0009035,-0.0020955

mokordo
08-03-2021, 10:00 AM
Neolithic_Europe:Iberia_N,0.1239407,0.1755737,0.03 41921,-0.0626261,0.0768007,-0.0339317,-0.004439,-0.0011793,0.0618117,0.0996021,0.0021292,0.015586,-0.0343077,-0.0108723,-0.0189858,-0.0058929,0.0074029,0.001844,0.0048463,-0.0070036,0.002468,0.0035996,-0.008148,-0.0235909,9.3e-05
Neolithic_Europe:BGR_N,0.120368,0.183049,0.0082968 ,-0.086241,0.0510865,-0.0429492,0.00235,-0.002942,0.0388085,0.085742,0.0137622,0.0133382,-0.0244175,-0.0001377,-0.0350498,-0.0144855,0.0216762,0.0030408,0.007982,-0.0117242,-0.0129145,0.0094902,-0.0033585,-0.0052118,-0.005269
Neolithic_Europe:CZE_N,0.122929,0.1843185,0.019422 ,-0.0773585,0.064627,-0.0444835,-0.009165,0.001385,0.0488815,0.084102,0.001299,0.01 78345,-0.0246775,0.0060555,-0.027619,-0.011403,0.0042375,0.0032935,0.01169,-0.01507,-0.005553,0.010201,-0.012078,-0.0103625,-0.004012
Neolithic_Europe:GRC_N,0.118376,0.18178,-0.001131,-0.105622,0.057241,-0.051037,-0.00423,-0.003923,0.039064,0.090207,0.003735,0.013638,-0.019177,-0.007569,-0.046959,-0.004243,0.040028,0.003927,0.004022,-0.013506,-0.012228,0.014096,0.00037,0.001325,-0.004311
Neolithic_Europe:HUN_Starcevo_N,0.122246,0.1886854 ,0.0077688,-0.0985152,0.0593956,-0.0521526,-0.0032432,-0.0068304,0.0448726,0.0865622,0.008217,0.0126786,-0.0229534,0.0046514,-0.0378388,-0.0226466,0.0074318,0.002179,0.0110612,-0.0154824,-0.0138756,0.0108072,-0.0017254,-0.0052776,-0.0043348
Neolithic_Europe:ITA_Sardinia_N,0.1201974,0.174874 2,0.0429918,-0.0535534,0.0780454,-0.029172,-0.006392,0.0015692,0.0629932,0.094289,0.0031506,0. 0159756,-0.0350544,-0.0134594,-0.0193538,-0.0040042,0.0115,-0.0011148,0.0076926,-0.008329,0.0036184,0.003586,-0.015258,-0.0290884,0.0016286
Neolithic_Europe:ITA_N,0.1246362,0.1774638,0.01385 9,-0.0751782,0.0597805,-0.0377198,-0.0025262,-0.0014422,0.0414162,0.084694,0.0013802,0.0142372,-0.0270562,-0.00289,-0.026669,-0.0019558,0.0156135,0.0035475,0.0073848,-0.0041895,-0.002589,0.0029367,-0.0081343,-0.017141,0.0007482
Neolithic_Europe:ROU_N,0.126913,0.1848265,0.011125 ,-0.0999685,0.05878,-0.0541045,-0.00094,-0.004615,0.0459155,0.091574,0.0043845,0.013563,-0.027428,0.0013765,-0.0468235,-0.0113365,0.024838,0.0012035,0.0117525,-0.012318,-0.014662,0.0054405,-0.006532,0.0038555,-0.0070055
Neolithic_Europe:SRB_N,0.1277662,0.1822878,0.01074 8,-0.0957695,0.0574722,-0.0440648,-0.00094,-0.005769,0.039013,0.0868812,0.0036942,0.0131508,-0.022262,0.0014108,-0.0391552,-0.01369,0.0202748,0.000697,0.0124128,-0.0138505,-0.007331,0.0062138,-0.0083192,0.0020182,5.98e-05
Neolithic_Europe:Wales_N,0.12236,0.1675625,0.04940 25,-0.0421515,0.0829385,-0.0207775,-0.003995,-0.000808,0.0583915,0.085013,-0.002111,0.0109405,-0.031665,-0.0063305,-0.0109935,-0.00716,0.0065845,0.002217,-0.0023885,-0.004752,0.014911,0.006677,-0.0162075,-0.0409095,-0.001916
Neolithic_Europe:Scotland_N,0.1269127,0.1690178,0. 0542928,-0.0322677,0.0862828,-0.0224879,-0.0037679,0.0030922,0.0634297,0.0853533,-0.0002544,0.0123091,-0.0271157,-0.0115236,-0.0072611,0.0027269,0.0076274,0.0045017,0.0042653,-0.0041436,0.0120538,0.0032151,-0.0154018,-0.0339485,-0.0001358
Neolithic_Europe:England_N,0.1257112,0.1700446,0.0 558139,-0.0370732,0.0841866,-0.0225592,-0.0048307,0.0018717,0.0641522,0.0895791,0.0026342, 0.013388,-0.0261313,-0.0128294,-0.0092139,0.0046407,0.0148638,0.0027167,0.0030586,-0.000264,0.0108697,0.0025142,-0.014379,-0.031477,0.0003326
Bronze_Age_Invaders:AN10,0.1242948,0.0883510,0.043 6707,0.1151505,-0.0285283,0.0451246,0.0043710,-0.0021923,-0.0563668,-0.0732041,0.0018024,0.0009291,-0.0029287,-0.0225426,0.0358843,0.0144389,-0.0011735,-0.0042316,-0.0040350,0.0123809,-0.0037808,0.0000741,0.0072346,0.0193519,-0.0029337
Bronze_Age_Invaders::BN10,0.1160995,0.0872339,0.04 00881,0.1102730,-0.0310825,0.0437021,0.0032196,-0.0054228,-0.0573076,-0.0751905,-0.0004059,-0.0022330,-0.0009812,-0.0235335,0.0315685,0.0104348,-0.0031815,-0.0024704,-0.0011188,0.0094544,-0.0050411,0.0015704,0.0124357,0.0203281,-0.0051253
Levant:PPNB,0.0725625,0.1650235,-0.0309238,-0.1380835,0.0323138,-0.062541,-0.012103,-0.0141338,0.0735775,0.0367207,0.0194055,-0.0170098,0.036459,-0.000241,-0.021342,0.0067288,0.0089638,-0.0013935,-0.0054052,0.0192277,-0.0037435,0.007852,-0.0014175,-0.0062658,-0.0047002
North_Africa_Neolithic:MAR_EN+LN,-0.0759773,0.1200863,-0.0112193,-0.0894710,0.0378528,-0.0570333,-0.0535235,0.0151150,0.1169368,0.0292488,0.0211918,-0.0123268,0.0390605,-0.0375368,0.0368480,-0.0119330,0.0249358,-0.0347760,-0.0913508,0.0167893,-0.0282940,-0.0701110,0.0472043,-0.0099110,0.0087120
Ancient_Africa:CMR_Shum_Laka_3000BP,-0.6129375,0.0528075,0.013765,0.0272935,0.000769,-0.001813,0.1482915,-0.1137645,0.00542,0.004374,-0.001056,-0.0400145,-0.025272,0.0019955,0.008279,-0.0068285,0.005802,0.016153,-0.0067245,0.0010005,-0.001934,-0.0020405,-0.00456,0.000482,-0.006586
Ancient_Africa:CMR_Shum_Laka_8000BP,-0.602693,0.055346,0.0148965,0.0263245,-0.0064625,0.00502,0.1243205,-0.099919,0.0138055,-0.007016,-0.00065,-0.0242785,-0.0203665,-0.0052295,0.0021035,-0.00179,0.0127125,0.017356,-0.0011945,-0.0040645,-0.003494,-0.000371,0.0016025,-0.0009035,-0.0020955

Target: gixajo_scaled
Distance: 2.2469% / 0.02246910
64.6 Neolithic_Europe
32.0 Bronze_Age_Invaders
3.4 North_Africa_Neolithic

Target: gixajo_dad_scaled
Distance: 2.0265% / 0.02026504
64.8 Neolithic_Europe
29.8 Bronze_Age_Invaders
4.4 North_Africa_Neolithic
1.0 Ancient_Africa

Target: gixajo_mom_scaled
Distance: 3.1374% / 0.03137402
64.8 Neolithic_Europe
33.4 Bronze_Age_Invaders
1.8 North_Africa_Neolithic

Shadogowah
08-03-2021, 10:14 AM
Target: gixajo_scaled
Distance: 2.2469% / 0.02246910
64.6 Neolithic_Europe
32.0 Bronze_Age_Invaders
3.4 North_Africa_Neolithic

Target: gixajo_dad_scaled
Distance: 2.0265% / 0.02026504
64.8 Neolithic_Europe
29.8 Bronze_Age_Invaders
4.4 North_Africa_Neolithic
1.0 Ancient_Africa

Target: gixajo_mom_scaled
Distance: 3.1374% / 0.03137402
64.8 Neolithic_Europe
33.4 Bronze_Age_Invaders
1.8 North_Africa_Neolithic

Target: Shadogowah_scaled
Distance: 2.2388% / 0.02238782
61.0 Neolithic_Europe
29.8 Bronze_Age_Invaders
9.2 North_Africa_Neolithic

Pedro Ruben
08-03-2021, 10:19 AM
Target: Pedro_scaled
Distance: 2.8212% / 0.02821165
54.6 Neolithic_Europe
34.4 Bronze_Age_Invaders
9.0 North_Africa_Neolithic
2.0 Ancient_Africa

Target: Dad_scaled
Distance: 2.8383% / 0.02838337
56.2 Neolithic_Europe
30.6 Bronze_Age_Invaders
10.4 North_Africa_Neolithic
2.8 Ancient_Africa

Target: Mom_scaled
Distance: 2.4742% / 0.02474222
59.0 Neolithic_Europe
32.8 Bronze_Age_Invaders
6.0 North_Africa_Neolithic
2.2 Ancient_Africa

alejandromb92
08-03-2021, 10:53 AM
Target: Alejandro_scaled
Distance: 2.0790% / 0.02079006
50.6 Neolithic_Europe
34.8 Bronze_Age_Invaders
7.2 North_Africa_Neolithic
6.6 Levant
0.8 Ancient_Africa

hantrolugharsts
08-03-2021, 10:55 AM
Target: hantro_scaled
Distance: 2.1369% / 0.02136872
61.4 Neolithic_Europe
32.2 Bronze_Age_Invaders
6.2 North_Africa_Neolithic
0.2 Ancient_Africa

Mis mapas Neolítico-Edad del Bronce

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-im-GCsfyh8U/YQcLKPvLa2I/AAAAAAAAGi8/mhWxZMF2s8E2QY0ZZX2hEi-VNhVbMiyXwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1223/mineNeolitico.jpeg
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-6TdTCY923xc/YQcRphGrRJI/AAAAAAAAGjE/aG7dgK5KVL8ZCZRCunUMtp39R_vniqzYgCLcBGAsYHQ/s1211/BronzeAgemio.jpeg
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Lts-c9m4YLc/YQcUv2B2oiI/AAAAAAAAGj8/zwZx599-B6kijPKeeLn8OCiCJXtZZHkigCLcBGAsYHQ/s1224/Latebronzeagemio.jpeg

mokordo
08-03-2021, 11:12 AM
Target: Alejandro_scaled
Distance: 2.0790% / 0.02079006
a

Tu Levant igual sube algo por tu parte italiana. Igual también tu "Bronze age Invaders" está en el rango alto de un Ibérico por lo mismo.¿Podría ser?

¿Dónde está el bilbaíno-irlandés cuando se le necesita? Me gustaría ver lo que saca en ese componente "Bronze Age...", suele salirle bastante alto.

Edit: Supongo que no hace falta decir que el Neolithic Europe es EEF+WHG, en diferentes proporciones según zona.

JJJ
08-03-2021, 12:03 PM
Target: Juan_scaled
Distance: 3.3099% / 0.03309861
60.6 Neolithic_Europe
33.2 Bronze_Age_Invaders
4.4 North_Africa_Neolithic
1.8 Ancient_Africa

castrogonzalo
08-03-2021, 04:18 PM
Para variar, un modelito antiguo, a ver quien gana en "bronze age invaders".

Podría ser el nombre de un videojuego...:P


Yo quiero jugar ... !!

Hazme un croquis sencillo con la explicación, plis ... :noidea:

luasits
08-03-2021, 05:29 PM
Distance: 3.7741% / 0.03774150
58.6 Neolithic_Europe
31.6 Bronze_Age_Invaders
9.8 North_Africa_Neolithic

Luso
08-03-2021, 05:54 PM
Target: Luso_scaled
Distance: 2.9556% / 0.02955576
59.2 Neolithic_Europe
31.8 Bronze_Age_Invaders
7.8 North_Africa_Neolithic
1.2 Ancient_Africa

alejandromb92
08-03-2021, 07:02 PM
Tu Levant igual sube algo por tu parte italiana. Igual también tu "Bronze age Invaders" está en el rango alto de un Ibérico por lo mismo.¿Podría ser?

¿Dónde está el bilbaíno-irlandés cuando se le necesita? Me gustaría ver lo que saca en ese componente "Bronze Age...", suele salirle bastante alto.

Edit: Supongo que no hace falta decir que el Neolithic Europe es EEF+WHG, en diferentes proporciones según zona.

6.6% es relativamente alto, tomando en cuenta los otros porcentajes no-europeos que me marca. Ciertamente viene por mi parte italiana, aqui a mas nadie le ha salido levantino hasta los momentos.

mokordo
08-03-2021, 07:30 PM
Yo quiero jugar ... !!

Hazme un croquis sencillo con la explicación, plis ... :noidea:

Pues en el github de vahaduo (en blanco) copias y pegas lo que posteé en "sources" , tus coordenadas G25 scaled en "target" y luego en "single" le das al botón con el nombre de tus coordenadas, y te sale el resultado, con la distancia del resultado, y una lista con los porcentajes de los componentes con los que te modela.

mokordo
08-03-2021, 07:40 PM
6.6% es relativamente alto, tomando en cuenta los otros porcentajes no-europeos que me marca. Ciertamente viene por mi parte italiana, aqui a mas nadie le ha salido levantino hasta los momentos.

https://i.imgur.com/47kHDZP.png

Y por pereza no miro griegos y balcánicos, pero supongo que les saldrá también, ya sabes, podemos considerarlo como una forma de indicar el componente "East Med" antiguo, y más usando una referencia tan antigua.

estesiquesabe
08-03-2021, 07:42 PM
La verdad es que no me fio mucho de mi raw con 23andme

Target: Xabier_scaled
Distance: 2.6000% / 0.02600019
56.0 Neolithic_Europe
39.0 Bronze_Age_Invaders
5.0 North_Africa_Neolithic

Target: Dad_scaled
Distance: 1.9591% / 0.01959102
61.0 Neolithic_Europe
36.0 Bronze_Age_Invaders
3.0 North_Africa_Neolithic

Target: Mom_scaled
Distance: 3.3294% / 0.03329410
57.4 Neolithic_Europe
33.4 Bronze_Age_Invaders
8.2 North_Africa_Neolithic
1.0 Ancient_Africa

mokordo
08-03-2021, 07:50 PM
La verdad es que no me fio mucho de mi raw con 23andme

a

Noté una oscilación en La Fuerza y supe que alguien que iba a dar un Bronze Age Invaders alto se iba a manifestar.

Siempre tendemos a pensar que las coordenadas de un hijo y sus padres deberían guardar la proporción en todos los componentes, a mí también me pasa con mis padres, en unos calculadores más que en otros, y en unos componentes más que en otros.

alejandromb92
08-03-2021, 08:13 PM
https://i.imgur.com/47kHDZP.png

Y por pereza no miro griegos y balcánicos, pero supongo que les saldrá también, ya sabes, podemos considerarlo como una forma de indicar el componente "East Med" antiguo, y más usando una referencia tan antigua.

Fijate que el promedio levantino en Sicilia seria de 24.1, si dividimos eso entre 4, da 6, muy cerca de lo que me da a mi. Bastante realista.


La verdad es que no me fio mucho de mi raw con 23andme

Target: Xabier_scaled
Distance: 2.6000% / 0.02600019
56.0 Neolithic_Europe
39.0 Bronze_Age_Invaders
5.0 North_Africa_Neolithic

Target: Dad_scaled
Distance: 1.9591% / 0.01959102
61.0 Neolithic_Europe
36.0 Bronze_Age_Invaders
3.0 North_Africa_Neolithic

Target: Mom_scaled
Distance: 3.3294% / 0.03329410
57.4 Neolithic_Europe
33.4 Bronze_Age_Invaders
8.2 North_Africa_Neolithic
1.0 Ancient_Africa

не волнуйтесь, ему легко можно доверять. Все они дают относительно одинаковый результат, так что да, вы именно такие. Да да.

https://c1.alamy.com/thumbs/dxb261/feb-16-1989-termez-uzbekistan-ru-a-smiling-soviet-soldier-of-the-103rd-dxb261.jpg

estesiquesabe
08-03-2021, 08:21 PM
Fijate que el promedio levantino en Sicilia seria de 24.1, si dividimos eso entre 4, da 6, muy cerca de lo que me da a mi. Bastante realista.



не волнуйтесь, ему легко можно доверять. Все они дают относительно одинаковый результат, так что да, вы именно такие. Да да.

[IMG]
Спасибо друг

https://i.gyazo.com/f0671a53d1f23c2a0787d1d03bc51c1d.jpg

mokordo
08-03-2021, 08:28 PM
Fijate que el promedio levantino en Sicilia seria de 24.1, si dividimos eso entre 4, da 6, muy cerca de lo que me da a mi. Bastante realista.



не волнуйтесь, ему легко можно доверять. Все они дают относительно одинаковый результат, так что да, вы именно такие. Да да.

MG]


Спасибо друг

G]

Почему вы вдруг заговорили по-русски? Здесь единственный R1a это я !!!

Slav as fuck.B)

mokordo
08-03-2021, 08:32 PM
Por cierto, ya que estamos aquí reunidos, FTDNA ofrece descuentos de verano, de hasta 50$.

Shadogowah
08-04-2021, 05:50 AM
Por cierto, ya que estamos aquí reunidos, FTDNA ofrece descuentos de verano, de hasta 50$.

Mis primos Luso y Estesiquesabe, haceos el BigY!

JJJ
08-04-2021, 11:48 AM
Por cierto, ya que estamos aquí reunidos, FTDNA ofrece descuentos de verano, de hasta 50$.

Ni ipari Emi yoo ni anfani lati pade awọn baba mi!

mokordo
08-04-2021, 12:07 PM
Ni ipari Emi yoo ni anfani lati pade awọn baba mi!

Pues ahorra!!!

Mira el K13 de YourDnaPortal que igual tienes coordenadas nuevas del K13 como yo, han actualizado cosillas.

Edit:Ahora he visto que significa lo que has puesto, de todas formas, lo de ahorrar siempre es un buen consejo.:biggrin1:

JJJ
08-04-2021, 12:17 PM
Pues ahorra!!!

Mira el K13 de YourDnaPortal que igual tienes coordenadas nuevas del K13 como yo, han actualizado cosillas.

Edit:Ahora he visto que significa lo que has puesto, de todas formas, lo de ahorrar siempre es un buen consejo.:biggrin1:

Si costase 250$ menos igual me lo haría, pero visto lo visto mas bien me tendrían que pagar ellos para expandir el árbol del que pertenezco.

Los cambios del K13 son irrelevantes con respecto a Gedmatch solo me da un poco más de Baltic y menos de North Atlantic.

mokordo
08-04-2021, 12:20 PM
Si costase 250$ menos igual me lo haría, pero visto lo visto mas bien me tendrían que pagar ellos para expandir el árbol del que pertenezco.

Los cambios del K13 son irrelevantes con respecto a Gedmatch solo me da un poco más de Baltic y menos de North Atlantic.

Entonces igual que a mí, el resto cambia pero poco.

De todas formas, 2% menos de North Atlantic y un 1% más de Baltic, tampoco es tan irrelevante.

Lo malo es que no tengo más que mi raw data descargado en YourDnaPortal, debería pagar si quiero subir los datos de mis padres.

JJJ
08-04-2021, 12:26 PM
Entonces igual que a mí, el resto cambia pero poco.

De todas formas, 2% menos de North Atlantic y un 1% más de Baltic, tampoco es tan irrelevante.

Lo malo es que no tengo más que mi raw data descargado en YourDnaPortal, debería pagar si quiero subir los datos de mis padres.

Esos cambios los míos son de menos del 1% si es que hubo.

alejandromb92
08-04-2021, 05:48 PM
Por cierto, ya que estamos aquí reunidos, FTDNA ofrece descuentos de verano, de hasta 50$.

Los precios, aun con descuento, son desorbitados para alguien que no tenga un bolsillo algo abultado. Yo, como ya hice el gasto en el YSEQ, lo que hare es testear cada clado nuevo que salga, se que con el FTDNA eso se va actualizando y tal pero bueno, si hubiese sabido que mi resultado iba a ser tan poco comun, no me iba por el YSEQ si no por este otro.

estesiquesabe
08-04-2021, 06:16 PM
Mis primos Luso y Estesiquesabe, haceos el BigY!
Yo me hare una secuencia del genoma completo en un tiempo

mokordo
08-04-2021, 08:17 PM
Los precios, aun con descuento, son desorbitados para alguien que no tenga un bolsillo algo abultado. Yo, como ya hice el gasto en el YSEQ, lo que hare es testear cada clado nuevo que salga, se que con el FTDNA eso se va actualizando y tal pero bueno, si hubiese sabido que mi resultado iba a ser tan poco comun, no me iba por el YSEQ si no por este otro.

Todavía tengo cargo de conciencia por haberme gastado ese dinero. no me lo recuerdes.:\

Gil Vicente
08-04-2021, 09:01 PM
Target: Gil_Vicente
Distance: 2.6929% / 0.02692943
59.0 Neolithic_Europe
34.8 Bronze_Age_Invaders
4.4 North_Africa_Neolithic
1.8 Ancient_Africa

castrogonzalo
08-05-2021, 06:57 AM
Un paper interesante:

"Bell Beaker cultural package in the East European periphery of the phenomenon: a case of ritual features in north-eastern Poland"
Dariusz Manasterski, Katarzyna Januszek, Adam Wawrusiewicz, and Aleksandra Klecha

Documenta Praehistorica XLVII (2020)

"In the presented case, itmost likely involved the arrival of a group (or groups) of BB people from the West, which brought ‘behaviour’ representing the BB cultural package. This is suggested by some of the artefacts characteristic for Western Europe, and in the case of the decorated slate plaquette/pendant, directly from the Iberian Peninsula, the only location where it has parallels."

Shadogowah
08-05-2021, 07:08 AM
Un paper interesante:

"Bell Beaker cultural package in the East European periphery of the phenomenon: a case of ritual features in north-eastern Poland"
Dariusz Manasterski, Katarzyna Januszek, Adam Wawrusiewicz, and Aleksandra Klecha

Documenta Praehistorica XLVII (2020)

"In the presented case, itmost likely involved the arrival of a group (or groups) of BB people from the West, which brought ‘behaviour’ representing the BB cultural package. This is suggested by some of the artefacts characteristic for Western Europe, and in the case of the decorated slate plaquette/pendant, directly from the Iberian Peninsula, the only location where it has parallels."

Reflujo.

J-Live
08-05-2021, 08:09 AM
Ni ipari Emi yoo ni anfani lati pade awọn baba mi!

Lmfao sorry to interrupt but how do you know Yoruba!? :lol:

castrogonzalo
08-05-2021, 08:33 AM
Reflujo.

¿Reflujo genético? Hay debate, pero personalmente me parece razonable, a falta de que se demuestre lo contrario.
¿Reflujo de la tecnología cerámica? Posible, pero no es lo más probable porque la datación BB más antigua es sobre 2800 BC en el estuario del Tajo.

alejandromb92
08-05-2021, 11:06 AM
¿Reflujo genético? Hay debate, pero personalmente me parece razonable, a falta de que se demuestre lo contrario.
¿Reflujo de la tecnología cerámica? Posible, pero no es lo más probable porque la datación BB más antigua es sobre 2800 BC en el estuario del Tajo.

Yo creo que independientemente de que la datacion mas antigua haya sido (hasta los momentos) en Iberia, esa cultura nace a las alturas del Bajo Rin y se extiende por alli, como coletazo occidental de los cordados.

Hasta que no me encuentren un L51 entre los Yamnaya, no caere en la teoria de la expansion Yamnaya a Occidente. Me pongo negacionista como los anti-vacunas y anti-calentamiento global.

castrogonzalo
08-05-2021, 11:51 AM
Yo creo que independientemente de que la datacion mas antigua haya sido (hasta los momentos) en Iberia, esa cultura nace a las alturas del Bajo Rin y se extiende por alli, como coletazo occidental de los cordados.

Hasta que no me encuentren un L51 entre los Yamnaya, no caere en la teoria de la expansion Yamnaya a Occidente. Me pongo negacionista como los anti-vacunas y anti-calentamiento global.

Si la datación más antigua fuera en el Bajo Rin, ni Masantín el torero discutiría que ahí surgió el BB. ¿Porque los ibéricos no tienen crédito?
Mi hipótesis es que surge en el SW de Europa (y cuidado no haya sido en Marruecos) antes de que llegaran los estepeños R1b-IE, esos de los cordados. De aquí se expandió hacia el Centro y el NE de Europa, gracias a la red marítima de los neolíticos, y ahí se mezcla con los cordados. Mira este mapa de gente del early chalcolithic. Añádele el flujo y reflujo al gusto.
45921
y en los viajes de vuelta llegan los R1b-IE, como en este mapa con gente del late chalcolithic:
45922

Yo no soy negacionista respecto al avance estepeño pero créeme que si se confirma que el L51 es del Oeste, lo voy a celebrar contigo :beerchug:

mokordo
08-05-2021, 12:09 PM
Lmfao sorry to interrupt but how do you know Yoruba!? :lol:

Because we, Spanish people, are black people, as Yorubas are.:beerchug:

And JJJ even more!!!

Shadogowah
08-05-2021, 12:34 PM
¿Reflujo genético? Hay debate, pero personalmente me parece razonable, a falta de que se demuestre lo contrario.
¿Reflujo de la tecnología cerámica? Posible, pero no es lo más probable porque la datación BB más antigua es sobre 2800 BC en el estuario del Tajo.

Te iba a contestar pero ya lo haces tu abajo.

Puestos a elucubrar, yo creo posibles ambos.

Un reflujo genético con R1b-DF27 ya nacidos, criados y engordados en Iberia refluyendo hacia el continente. Queremos ver el progreso de los indoeuropeos atravesando Francia y cruzando los Pirineos desde el norte pero como ya hemos hablado, quizás entraron por el levante y el sur. Encontraron recursos metalúrgicos muy valiosos que los hizo poderosos y fueron colonizando la península de sur a norte quizás cruzando los Pirineos justo en la dirección contraria.

Luego, respecto a la cosa cultural, creo que hay elementos de la cultura BB que paracen ser producto de una hibridación típicamente ibérica.

alejandromb92
08-05-2021, 12:35 PM
Si la datación más antigua fuera en el Bajo Rin, ni Masantín el torero discutiría que ahí surgió el BB. ¿Porque los ibéricos no tienen crédito?
Mi hipótesis es que surge en el SW de Europa (y cuidado no haya sido en Marruecos) antes de que llegaran los estepeños R1b-IE, esos de los cordados. De aquí se expandió hacia el Centro y el NE de Europa, gracias a la red marítima de los neolíticos, y ahí se mezcla con los cordados. Mira este mapa de gente del early chalcolithic. Añádele el flujo y reflujo al gusto.
45921
y en los viajes de vuelta llegan los R1b-IE, como en este mapa con gente del late chalcolithic:
45922

Yo no soy negacionista respecto al avance estepeño pero créeme que si se confirma que el L51 es del Oeste, lo voy a celebrar contigo :beerchug:

No es la primera vez que erroneamente asocio la cultura con la expansion genetica. Tienes razon en todo lo que has dicho, la cultura del Vaso Campaniforme se forma y se expande (muy probablemente) justo como lo has planteado. Yo me referia mas que todo es en lo que se asocia como genetica Bell Beaker, esa de R1b, que se extiende desde el Bajo Rin. En algunos mapas se distingue entre Vaso Campaniforme Norte (British Bell Beaker) y Vasco Campaniforme Sur (Proto-Bell Beaker), para diferenciar un poco el tema de la genetica y la expansion cultural, creo que es la mejor manera.

castrogonzalo
08-07-2021, 11:54 AM
No es la primera vez que erroneamente asocio la cultura con la expansion genetica. Tienes razon en todo lo que has dicho, la cultura del Vaso Campaniforme se forma y se expande (muy probablemente) justo como lo has planteado. Yo me referia mas que todo es en lo que se asocia como genetica Bell Beaker, esa de R1b, que se extiende desde el Bajo Rin. En algunos mapas se distingue entre Vaso Campaniforme Norte (British Bell Beaker) y Vasco Campaniforme Sur (Proto-Bell Beaker), para diferenciar un poco el tema de la genetica y la expansion cultural, creo que es la mejor manera.

Desde mi ignorancia, la cerámica BB surge en Iberia y yo la denominaría Iberian-BB, Western-BB o Classical-BB para diferenciarla de la Eastern-BB (que fue la que entró definitivamente en las islas británicas). Proto-BB me suena a algo rudimentario, inacabado, y que solo se convierte en algo serio cuando lo perfeccionan los rubitos de ojos azules de las estepas. Pero esto que quede entre nosotros ... jaja!

Shadogowah
08-08-2021, 07:10 AM
No es la primera vez que erroneamente asocio la cultura con la expansion genetica. Tienes razon en todo lo que has dicho, la cultura del Vaso Campaniforme se forma y se expande (muy probablemente) justo como lo has planteado. Yo me referia mas que todo es en lo que se asocia como genetica Bell Beaker, esa de R1b, que se extiende desde el Bajo Rin. En algunos mapas se distingue entre Vaso Campaniforme Norte (British Bell Beaker) y Vasco Campaniforme Sur (Proto-Bell Beaker), para diferenciar un poco el tema de la genetica y la expansion cultural, creo que es la mejor manera.

El vaso campaniforme ibérico sigue siendo el más antiguo de calle.

Mi interpretación puramente basada en el efecto Dunning-Kruger (y en que soy lo suficiéntemente 'sucnormal' como para hacer públicas mis paridas) es que los berracos indoeuropeos llegan a Iberia un poco como la primera ola de conquistadores españoles llegó a América buscando Eldorado o las siete ciudades de Cíbola.

Previos a su llegada lo que tenemos deben ser culturas nativas herederas de las culturas megalíticas que ya están haciendo sus pinitos con la teconología del cobre. Y estas gentes ya han encontrado yacimientos extraordinariamente ricos y accesibles. Los restos más antíguos de Riotinto, por ejemplo, datan de finales del IV milenio antes de cristo. Ya existían rutas comerciales con el norte de europa y el mediterráneo así que la vaga idea de que en algún lugar de occidente existían unas gentes que tenían un chorro de riquezas minerales debía de estar bastante extendida.

Seguramente ya hay "adelantados" que llegan e informan de enormes riquezas y bellas mujeres...Y quizás (siguiendo con la analogía americana) también introducen enfermedades y porquerías en una población no inmunizada.

La cultura del vaso campaniforme incluye diversos elementos pero parece que el principal consiste en que todos mocitos del pueblo se pongan a beber cerveza o algún tipo de fermentado similar y a cogerse cogorzas con algún tipo de significado religioso (costumbre que aún se conserva hoy en día en cualquier romería popular). Ni que decir tiene que los recién llegados encuentran esta costumbre religiosa un maravilloso invento, la adoptan inmediatamente y la importan hacia el este.

castrogonzalo
08-22-2021, 12:44 PM
Si puede ayudar al hilo, todas estas son muestras de Global25 de la Península Ibérica datadas entre el 4000 y el 1000 a.C:



Scaled G25
Date


Iberia_Southwest_MLN:I7549,0.120652,0.170609,0.048 649,-0.051357,0.085862,-0.032909,-0.008225,-0.002769,0.070152,0.093669,0.007145,0.015586,-0.030327,-0.019955,-0.010722,-0.008884,0.019036,0.003167,0.005908,-0.004877,0.007612,0.001855,-0.009737,-0.045549,-0.007305
-4000


Iberia_MN:I0408,0.122929,0.170609,0.054305,-0.035207,0.089555,-0.017012,-0.008695,-0.001154,0.065243,0.09859,-0.005196,0.012589,-0.029435,-0.018579,-0.01045,0.001061,0.012778,0.006208,0,-0.004502,0.019216,0.002102,-0.019103,-0.039524,0.000958
-3773


Iberia_MN:I0405,0.1161,0.162485,0.057699,-0.038114,0.082477,-0.024821,-0.002585,-0.000231,0.067084,0.08638,0.000974,0.016186,-0.038652,-0.020368,-0.003529,0.000928,0.013038,-0.003674,-0.006285,-0.004752,0.018842,0.008037,-0.013927,-0.0435,0.000958
-3750


Iberia_MN:I0406,0.124067,0.156392,0.050911,-0.033592,0.082477,-0.014781,-0.010105,0.003692,0.063198,0.087656,-0.00341,0.008093,-0.024826,-0.015138,-0.007465,-0.00716,-0.00352,0.006461,0.000503,-0.005753,0.015972,0.004822,-0.014666,-0.035186,0.009819
-3750


Iberia_MN:I0407,0.121791,0.161469,0.046386,-0.027455,0.086785,-0.029284,-0.018096,-0.006461,0.061766,0.096585,-0.004384,0.018583,-0.038503,-0.008808,-0.011265,0.003845,0.021513,0.007981,0.000754,-0.006753,0.018717,0.003586,-0.014543,-0.044103,-0.002036
-3750


Iberia_Southeast_MLN:I7600,0.124067,0.171624,0.046 763,-0.043605,0.084016,-0.03514,-0.007285,0.003692,0.07322,0.104786,0.000487,0.0230 79,-0.034787,0.001101,0.002172,-0.020021,-0.013169,0.003421,-0.002765,-0.005503,0.00549,-0.002226,-0.008258,-0.04097,-0.001557
-3675


Iberia_Southeast_MLN:I7601,0.1161,0.166547,0.04902 6,-0.028747,0.084323,-0.024542,-0.01034,0.001615,0.070561,0.094945,0.003897,0.0127 39,-0.024826,-0.003165,-0.008686,-0.019756,-0.014603,0.008868,0.004777,0.007629,0.011854,0.021 763,-0.025512,-0.040608,0.005149
-3590


Iberia_Southeast_MLN:I7644,0.126344,0.167562,0.048 649,-0.052003,0.087709,-0.036814,-0.00752,-0.001385,0.057471,0.082188,-0.000162,0.02218,-0.036422,-0.020919,-0.019815,0.015911,0.021122,0.005701,-0.001634,-0.003502,0.003119,0.009398,-0.012078,-0.040849,0.001676
-3510


Iberia_Southeast_MLN:I7598,0.12862,0.170609,0.0411 06,-0.042636,0.07663,-0.021475,-0.012221,-0.004846,0.067084,0.095127,-0.005684,0.018733,-0.036719,-0.020231,-0.016015,-0.005304,-0.000913,-0.002914,0.005154,-0.004877,0.005116,0.000495,-0.015283,-0.034704,0.001916
-3500


Iberia_Southeast_MLN:I7594,0.122929,0.17264,0.0392 21,-0.055233,0.070782,-0.020359,-0.002115,-0.002077,0.076287,0.092758,0.002923,0.011839,-0.030921,-0.01734,0.001493,0.006364,0.009388,0.003547,0.0026 4,-0.010255,0.01148,-0.000495,-0.023787,-0.029161,-0.00946
-3440


Iberia_Southeast_MLN:I8568,0.130897,0.161469,0.052 797,-0.034884,0.087709,-0.022032,-0.00705,-0.003,0.070561,0.08802,0.003573,0.019033,-0.029583,-0.021744,-0.010043,0.001326,0.010561,-0.000507,0.006285,-0.005378,0.001996,-0.00136,-0.01861,-0.040247,0.005868
-3425


Iberia_Southwest_CA:I5428,0.130897,0.153345,0.0463 86,-0.027455,0.084631,-0.028168,-0.001645,-0.002308,0.063811,0.093123,0.007957,0.018883,-0.033895,-0.013625,-0.007872,0.006629,0.025034,0.005068,0.002388,0.003 502,0.01672,0.011129,-0.015529,-0.040126,0.001796
-3226


Iberia_Southwest_CA:I5076,0.122929,0.171624,0.0584 54,-0.037468,0.078168,-0.020638,-0.004935,0.004846,0.061357,0.086562,-0.006983,0.012139,-0.031665,-0.012937,0.001221,-0.015115,-0.014994,-0.00152,-0.00088,-0.009505,0.015098,0.00136,-0.014913,-0.03868,0.002634
-3181


Iberia_Southeast_CA:I8566,0.126344,0.176702,0.0554 37,-0.02907,0.087401,-0.036814,-0.01034,0.009923,0.076901,0.089113,-0.010393,0.02278,-0.041328,-0.030415,0.002172,0.006895,-0.002999,-0.002534,-0.007416,5e-04,0.010731,0.000124,-0.013434,-0.035186,-0.004431
-3150


Iberia_North_MLN:I11248,0.135449,0.167562,0.070899 ,-0.017119,0.098788,-0.020638,-0.0094,0.002538,0.059516,0.093487,0.000325,0.01318 8,-0.028692,-0.019818,-0.013436,0.011668,0.005737,0.002914,0.001634,-0.007003,0.01959,0.006059,-0.020336,-0.046272,0.000838
-3100


Iberia_North_MLN:I11249,0.132035,0.159438,0.065619 ,-0.01615,0.09571,-0.016455,-0.00705,0.007154,0.075878,0.08474,-0.001299,0.013488,-0.02661,-0.018304,-0.0038,0.019358,0.024903,0.002407,-0.002263,-0.003252,0.008235,0.005688,-0.015406,-0.039162,0.000359
-3100


Iberia_North_MLN:I11301,0.12862,0.164516,0.064865,-0.021964,0.093248,-0.016176,-0.005875,0.006,0.060335,0.095127,-0.009743,0.008093,-0.039098,-0.024222,0.000679,0.004906,-0.001565,0.006841,-0.001383,-0.002626,0.022959,0.001978,-0.023787,-0.043259,0.006107
-3100


Iberia_North_MLN:I7602,0.126344,0.159438,0.071653,-0.023256,0.086785,-0.019522,-0.00658,0.000462,0.065039,0.084922,-0.002761,0.007793,-0.032408,-0.01734,-0.006922,0.006099,0.004694,0.000507,-0.005405,0.003377,0.017719,0.007419,-0.013311,-0.049525,0.012454
-3100


Iberia_North_MLN:I7603,0.124067,0.17264,0.066373,-0.021318,0.101557,-0.022032,-0.002115,0.010846,0.068925,0.088567,-0.007145,0.018134,-0.037462,-0.007982,0.004207,-0.014717,-0.008084,0.002154,0.005908,-0.001,0.013351,0.008408,-0.012941,-0.032173,-0.001197
-3100


Iberia_North_MLN:I7604,0.134311,0.156392,0.067505,-0.022933,0.08894,-0.010598,-0.009635,0.005077,0.062584,0.094945,0.000325,0.017 834,-0.029732,-0.010459,-0.006243,-0.003845,0.014342,-0.004181,-0.005279,0.010255,0.015223,0.006306,-0.008627,-0.042657,-0.001557
-3100


Iberia_North_MLN:I7605,0.122929,0.166547,0.073161,-0.014858,0.09294,-0.028168,-0.00846,-0.006231,0.069947,0.090389,-0.003897,0.016635,-0.026016,-0.017891,-0.0038,0.003315,0.005998,-0.009375,-0.001508,-0.002251,0.016221,-0.007914,-0.009737,-0.052658,0.007185
-3100


Iberia_North_MLN:I7606,0.136588,0.167562,0.074293,-0.01938,0.096326,-0.020638,0.000705,0.007615,0.058698,0.089478,-0.001786,0.012589,-0.027056,-0.024222,-0.000271,0.016574,0.020079,0.002154,0.009427,-0.001751,0.014849,0.003833,-0.007888,-0.039524,0.008023
-3100


Iberia_Southwest_CA:I11599,0.111547,0.155376,0.052 043,-0.028424,0.091709,-0.02008,-0.008695,-0.002769,0.06872,0.101506,0.001624,0.013488,-0.02884,-0.015689,-0.005565,0.006629,0.008084,-0.004941,-0.006034,-0.002001,0.023833,0.015828,-0.01935,-0.041331,-0.002874
-3100


Iberia_Southwest_CA:I11600,0.126344,0.165531,0.059 208,-0.027455,0.089247,-0.022032,-0.0094,-0.002077,0.082014,0.12228,0.002436,0.023079,-0.048463,-0.032479,-0.020629,0.000398,0.02047,0.014442,0.003645,0.0051 27,0.02558,0.009274,-0.025882,-0.11098,0.027423
-3100


Iberia_Southwest_CA:I3432,0.12862,0.167562,0.04978 ,-0.036822,0.08617,-0.029284,-0.00047,0.000231,0.063198,0.097496,-0.003085,0.017834,-0.033895,-0.010872,-0.009636,-0.00358,0.014994,0.003547,-0.002514,0.000375,0.007986,-0.007419,-0.017008,-0.0435,0.006347
-2994


Iberia_Northeast_CA:I4565,0.129758,0.167562,0.0561 91,-0.029393,0.08617,-0.0251,-0.006815,-0.001615,0.066061,0.099319,-0.001299,0.014987,-0.032408,-0.015276,-0.005565,0.008618,0.008214,0.013429,0.004777,-0.003126,0.016221,0.007419,-0.018734,-0.043259,0.002515
-2964


Iberia_Northeast_MLN:I10277,0.121791,0.173656,0.05 0911,-0.034884,0.090786,-0.01757,-0.004935,0.003,0.066061,0.090754,-0.003573,0.020532,-0.023786,-0.013349,-0.009636,0.011933,0.020079,0.005321,-0.005154,-0.005127,0.003369,0.000742,-0.015406,-0.034704,0.000838
-2950


Iberia_Northeast_MLN:I10278,0.121791,0.17264,0.050 157,-0.044574,0.088324,-0.017849,-0.000705,0.006,0.072197,0.101141,0.005359,0.012889 ,-0.0278,-0.01156,0.003257,-0.011005,-0.009518,0.006461,0.002388,-0.000625,0.009109,0.000495,-0.017748,-0.046754,0.007065
-2950


Iberia_Northeast_MLN:I10280,0.130897,0.165531,0.05 5814,-0.045543,0.094171,-0.027331,-0.002115,-0.000462,0.056653,0.090936,-0.00341,0.018883,-0.032111,-0.025598,-0.004343,-0.003182,-0.002217,-0.005068,-0.000754,-0.005628,0.010232,0.008656,-0.020459,-0.03868,-0.003832
-2950


Iberia_Northeast_MLN:I10285,0.132035,0.171624,0.06 5619,-0.029393,0.092633,-0.009203,-0.008695,0.007384,0.062584,0.090389,-0.001461,0.006744,-0.03107,-0.018992,0.006379,-0.007027,-0.004172,0.011909,0.000628,-0.008629,0.014599,0.006677,-0.013434,-0.039042,-0.000239
-2950


Iberia_Northeast_MLN:I10287,0.117238,0.169593,0.04 3369,-0.033915,0.093864,-0.028447,-0.002115,-0.000692,0.054812,0.095492,-0.004872,0.017385,-0.031516,-0.018166,-0.013029,0.013259,0.024512,-0.000633,-0.004525,-0.001376,0.012977,0.008656,-0.020213,-0.032776,-0.004431
-2950


Iberia_Northeast_MLN:I11305,0.130897,0.168578,0.04 2992,-0.050065,0.078784,-0.023148,-0.000705,0.006461,0.061971,0.096221,0.001137,0.023 979,-0.038354,-0.02491,-0.016558,0.009812,0.021253,0.000253,-0.005782,-0.005378,0.01123,0.001484,-0.01442,-0.020605,0.000599
-2950


Iberia_Northeast_MLN:I11306,0.126344,0.171624,0.06 1471,-0.037468,0.092633,-0.0251,-0.015041,0.006,0.069743,0.096038,-0.007632,0.017085,-0.030327,-0.010459,-0.002036,-0.006099,-0.01356,0.004181,0.009553,-0.002126,0.019216,0.00915,-0.017378,-0.043862,0.005389
-2950


Iberia_Southwest_CA:I5429,0.125205,0.161469,0.0452 54,-0.033915,0.079399,-0.032072,-0.001175,-0.003461,0.062993,0.092758,0.004872,0.014087,-0.035381,-0.009358,-0.002714,-0.005171,-0.002999,0.004561,0.001006,-0.004377,0.015722,0.004946,-0.021815,-0.039644,0.005269
-2948


Iberia_North_CA:I1842,0.135449,0.166547,0.072784,-0.021641,0.087401,-0.014781,-0.003525,0.009692,0.070152,0.093852,0.00341,0.0152 86,-0.027948,-0.021607,-0.015201,-0.002121,0.001695,0.003167,0.003645,-0.006753,0.015597,-0.00136,-0.016392,-0.044344,0.004431
-2900


Iberia_North_CA:I1845,0.136588,0.17264,0.058077,-0.028101,0.076937,-0.015618,-0.00282,0.004846,0.069538,0.093852,0.003897,0.0215 81,-0.039544,-0.011147,0.002579,-0.017369,-0.007953,0.001647,0.006662,-0.012131,0.021462,0.004822,-0.021568,-0.033017,0.00934
-2875


Iberia_North_CA:I1846,0.135449,0.167562,0.058454,-0.033269,0.087093,-0.026495,-0.00329,0.005077,0.071174,0.102599,-0.010393,0.020232,-0.037314,-0.022295,-0.001221,0.004243,0.014733,0.005194,-0.00729,0.003377,0.017968,0.005564,-0.014666,-0.047718,0.010298
-2875


Iberia_North_CA:I1978,0.132035,0.166547,0.062225,-0.023579,0.094787,-0.020359,-0.00235,0.003461,0.066061,0.092029,0.001949,0.0197 82,-0.029583,-0.016377,0.000271,-0.000265,0.001304,0.000633,-0.002891,0.002001,0.008859,-0.000618,-0.017008,-0.039765,-0.001916
-2875


Iberia_Southeast_MLN:I7642,0.134311,0.1635,0.04299 2,-0.043605,0.09571,-0.032072,-0.00329,0.001385,0.065652,0.102417,0.000974,0.0193 33,-0.037314,-0.017203,-0.002307,-0.002254,-0.002738,0.00266,-0.001257,-0.01063,0.015348,-0.000371,-0.009367,-0.037837,0.000239
-2834


Iberia_Southwest_CA:I11605,0.127482,0.164516,0.056 945,-0.022287,0.084323,-0.023985,-0.002115,0.006461,0.06872,0.085469,-0.003248,0.01139,-0.037314,-0.018166,0.002307,0.007027,0.024903,-0.00228,-0.010182,0.008629,0.013851,0.012365,-0.022801,-0.037114,0.00479
-2800


Iberia_Southeast_CA:I8569,0.126344,0.162485,0.0482 71,-0.034238,0.081554,-0.022869,0.002115,-0.003923,0.063198,0.088202,-0.000974,0.018284,-0.026313,-0.016515,-0.0057,0.014983,0.02373,0.010769,0.007793,-0.003377,0.008235,0.006677,-0.011092,-0.024823,0.000359
-2749


Iberia_Southeast_CA:I8197,0.118376,0.165531,0.0456 32,-0.042313,0.092633,-0.022032,-0.00188,0.000923,0.062175,0.093305,-0.002598,0.014237,-0.027205,-0.020781,-0.018322,0.00305,0.022556,0.009375,-0.002137,-0.00963,0.000998,0.004575,-0.012448,-0.034101,0.000838
-2700


Iberia_Southeast_CA:I8198,0.121791,0.159438,0.0433 69,-0.037145,0.084631,-0.018686,-0.010105,0.003231,0.059516,0.098043,-0.001624,0.019033,-0.036868,-0.023121,-0.009772,0.00358,0.01017,-0.000633,-0.00264,-0.006378,0.001373,0,-0.00912,-0.040367,0.004311
-2700


Iberia_Southeast_CA:I8199,0.127482,0.167562,0.0494 03,-0.051034,0.091709,-0.025658,-0.00658,-0.000231,0.067493,0.095309,0.000974,0.019932,-0.031813,-0.017616,-0.002579,-0.005569,0.014603,0.005701,-0.003017,-0.003502,0.007861,-0.002844,-0.019473,-0.040608,0.004431
-2700


Iberia_Southwest_CA:I11592,0.122929,0.164516,0.056 191,-0.025517,0.080938,-0.025379,-0.01034,0.002308,0.068106,0.099683,0.007795,0.0074 93,-0.035084,-0.014726,-0.00855,-0.00305,0.00352,0.000633,0.005028,-0.00963,0.002745,0.003091,-0.012325,-0.040006,0.006706
-2700


Iberia_Southwest_CA:I11614,0.122929,0.173656,0.049 026,-0.040052,0.081554,-0.0251,-0.00282,0.004384,0.06463,0.091665,-0.003085,0.013638,-0.031665,-0.028075,0.000136,0.010077,0.019166,0.005448,0.003 897,0.003502,0.013227,0.003586,-0.013064,-0.041813,0.001676
-2700


Iberia_Southwest_CA:I6601,0.122929,0.1635,0.0445,-0.037791,0.094171,-0.022311,-0.00235,0.000923,0.069334,0.095492,0.004384,0.0113 9,-0.027948,-0.016652,-0.007872,-0.012463,-0.009388,0.006208,0.005908,-0.006378,0.013351,0.004699,-0.01479,-0.039162,0.005389
-2700


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I1970,0.125205,0.173656,0.06750 5,-0.0323,0.079399,-0.024263,-0.00611,0.004384,0.054403,0.113533,-0.009094,0.018883,-0.041922,-0.030965,0.000271,0.010209,0.021905,-0.001014,0.009176,0.00988,0.013351,-0.00643,-0.017378,-0.045549,0.000838
-2683


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I0826,0.132035,0.176702,0.06222 5,-0.029393,0.090171,-0.016455,-0.021386,0.006461,0.041927,0.098407,-0.009743,0.006444,-0.043112,-0.010459,-0.001221,-0.011668,0.021905,-0.007981,0.00817,-0.013006,0.005366,-0.015209,-0.006039,-0.040849,0.002634
-2654


Iberia_Southeast_CA:I8364,0.126344,0.174671,0.0554 37,-0.043928,0.078476,-0.025379,-0.015981,-0.000462,0.063811,0.089478,-0.000325,0.012889,-0.026462,-0.00812,-0.015065,-0.003713,0.009648,0.00152,0.001508,-0.010255,0.013726,0.002226,-0.010723,-0.039403,0.006706
-2637


Iberia_Southeast_CA:I8365,0.1161,0.166547,0.041483 ,-0.049419,0.093556,-0.03263,-0.00423,0.001615,0.074038,0.085469,0.000812,0.0094 42,-0.024232,-0.012524,-0.006243,-0.001326,0.005346,-0.00266,0.00264,0.001251,0.007861,-0.006183,-0.016515,-0.027112,-0.003473
-2637


Iberia_Central_CA:I6617,0.129758,0.167562,0.050911 ,-0.024871,0.090786,-0.022311,-0.00705,-0.003692,0.065652,0.093123,-0.006171,0.017684,-0.03776,-0.023671,0.000814,0.006629,0.014864,0.004561,0.003 017,-0.005002,0.014599,0.001113,-0.007148,-0.027474,0.00479
-2600


Iberia_Central_CA_Stp:EHU002,0.125205,0.15436,0.05 8831,0.022287,0.055087,-0.000279,0.0047,0.005077,0.031906,0.03991,0.00065, 0.010341,-0.029881,-0.007707,0.010993,0.011403,0.003651,0.00076,0.0020 11,0.003126,0.019216,0.006554,-0.008504,-0.019521,0.008023
-2431


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I0459,0.127482,0.166547,0.05958 5,-0.028424,0.082477,-0.016176,-0.00517,0.001154,0.073833,0.078726,-0.003897,0.015137,-0.027948,-0.016377,-0.003664,0.007292,0.008345,0.002914,-0.004902,-0.003126,0.009358,0.003091,-0.013188,-0.046633,0.005628
-2400


Iberia_Mallorca_EBA:I4329,0.120652,0.14319,0.05656 8,0.008398,0.054472,0,0,0.005077,0.023111,0.043008 ,-0.012179,0.014087,-0.027502,-0.017891,0.0076,0.006895,0.010691,-0.002914,0.003268,-0.011756,-0.001747,-0.006183,-0.016885,-0.006868,0.0097
-2381


Iberia_Northwest_CA_Stp:I3238,0.119514,0.139128,0. 056191,0.035207,0.066782,-0.004183,-0.003055,-0.008077,0.024747,0.040456,0.00682,0.009741,-0.017096,-0.018166,0.016015,-0.000265,0.004955,0.007475,-0.011564,0.002751,0.007362,0.005193,-0.000863,-0.014339,-0.001916
-2350


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I4247,0.12862,0.178733,0.034695 ,-0.030685,0.080323,-0.021753,-0.012926,0.01223,0.065652,0.101141,-0.000162,0.024578,-0.021556,-0.022845,-0.009093,0.018695,0.023339,-0.004434,0.001257,-0.007879,0.010731,0.006677,-0.019227,-0.035186,0.001437
-2335


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I0460,0.12862,0.156392,0.064111 ,-0.021318,0.08894,-0.015897,-0.00564,0.001385,0.06872,0.097314,-0.004872,0.017984,-0.025124,-0.026011,0.006243,-0.00358,0.00352,0.007095,0.003268,-0.009004,0.016221,-0.002968,-0.020952,-0.04832,0.003832
-2333


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I0461,0.1161,0.140143,0.051288, 0.008721,0.070475,-0.00753,-0.00846,0.007846,0.041518,0.046106,-0.010555,0.010341,-0.021853,-0.021744,0.012351,0.019358,0.016428,0.007981,-0.005154,0.005628,0.009358,0,-0.011955,-0.013375,-0.002874
-2327


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I0840,0.122929,0.157407,0.05204 3,-0.030685,0.081861,-0.020638,-0.014336,-0.005769,0.068106,0.090571,-0.003248,0.016186,-0.033895,-0.022708,-0.001221,0.000265,0.014864,-0.014189,0.001885,-0.00025,0.012104,0.00371,-0.00493,-0.038198,0.003353
-2303


Iberia_Central_CA_Afr:I4246,-0.05122,0.140143,-0.002263,-0.091086,0.0397,-0.047133,-0.036192,0.007384,0.091013,0.044283,0.012179,-0.000899,0.006987,-0.018029,0.020087,-0.016309,0.000652,-0.016596,-0.033561,0.003001,-0.011729,-0.018548,0.013064,-0.009399,0.005987
-2273


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I6472,0.135449,0.144205,0.07655 5,0.015181,0.048009,-0.009482,-0.015276,0.000923,0.035383,0.049933,0.001624,0.016 935,-0.029286,-0.009221,0.012758,-0.016971,0.004955,-0.003674,-0.007039,-0.002501,0.004866,0.010263,-0.006902,-0.020244,0.004431
-2250


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I6539,0.124067,0.149283,0.05732 2,-0.003553,0.070167,-0.001394,-0.01081,0.003692,0.030679,0.041914,0.00341,0.00524 5,-0.023637,-0.026286,0.002307,0.009414,0.024121,-0.004941,0.00264,-0.006503,0.002496,0.00371,-0.001849,-0.016147,0.003233
-2250


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I6584,0.124067,0.175687,0.06033 9,-0.02584,0.080015,-0.029284,-0.00329,0.001846,0.074856,0.087656,-0.004222,0.013488,-0.020069,-0.01101,-0.002986,-0.008884,0.009257,-0.000507,0.016718,0.017383,0.005241,0.00371,-0.015036,-0.026992,-0.006347
-2250


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I6587,0.118376,0.165531,0.05807 7,-0.036499,0.089555,-0.030957,-0.01081,-0.001615,0.060539,0.094763,0.000487,0.004796,-0.036125,-0.020231,-0.003664,-0.002519,0.010431,-0.002154,-0.015335,-0.006253,0.024332,-0.009274,-0.014173,-0.030607,-0.008263
-2250


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I6588,0.134311,0.15436,0.061094 ,0.007429,0.053856,0.014502,0.00658,0.01823,0.0182 03,0.045741,-0.009906,0.016036,-0.025867,-0.026424,0.011265,0.012596,0.000522,0.006081,-0.002388,0.017508,0.006613,-0.015457,-0.001849,-0.003133,0.007305
-2250


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I4229,0.120652,0.160454,0.04789 4,-0.023902,0.077553,-0.013387,-0.008695,0.005077,0.053176,0.072894,-0.003897,0.012439,-0.037611,-0.015689,-0.004072,-0.001326,0.003129,0.005574,0.000628,-0.004252,0.018218,-0.000495,-0.017624,-0.025666,-0.000239
-2214


Iberia_Central_CA_Stp:EHU001,0.126344,0.129988,0.0 50157,0.041344,0.037853,0.011156,0.003995,0.000462 ,0.015135,0.024784,-0.002436,0.008842,-0.017245,-0.013625,0.024294,0.008088,-0.000652,0.006968,0.004022,-0.000125,0.002371,0.00136,0,-0.003856,0.007664
-2164


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I6623,0.133173,0.146236,0.06147 1,0.036822,0.042162,0.011435,0.00987,0.002077,0.02 1475,0.032256,-0.015427,0.014087,-0.020812,-0.020781,0.009636,-0.006762,-0.016168,0.007221,0.004902,0.005628,0.010482,0.010 51,-0.004683,-0.011929,0
-2150


Bell_Beaker_Iberia_C:I6542,0.133173,0.157407,0.061 094,-0.022933,0.093248,-0.00251,0.00141,0.008538,0.063402,0.090025,-0.002273,0.012589,-0.030178,-0.018854,-0.013436,0.003315,0.028945,0.004941,-0.000754,0.013757,0.015722,-0.003586,-0.013188,-0.053984,-0.011376
-2150


Iberia_Central_CA:I6609,0.126344,0.173656,0.05506,-0.042313,0.097557,-0.030957,-0.010575,-0.000462,0.07097,0.086927,-0.017376,0.010191,-0.030773,-0.01156,-0.001629,0.006895,0.009909,-0.000507,0.003394,-0.000125,0.015098,-0.001731,-0.007395,-0.026028,-0.001078
-2150


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I5665,0.126344,0.149283,0.05279 7,0.012274,0.068936,0.000837,-0.011281,-0.001385,0.043768,0.049204,0.001624,0.014687,-0.02438,-0.008945,0.001493,-0.002121,-0.008736,0.009755,0.004777,-0.00025,0.013227,0.001113,-0.00456,-0.027474,0.000838
-2133


Iberia_Central_CA:I3485,0.125205,0.162485,0.051666 ,-0.022933,0.080015,-0.014502,-0.006345,0.004384,0.048472,0.075992,-0.003897,0.014687,-0.025124,-0.011698,-0.005429,-0.001458,-0.00665,-0.001774,-0.009427,-0.014882,0.015098,0.007419,-0.011216,-0.028679,0.006107
-2100


Iberia_Central_CA:I6604,0.124067,0.17264,0.061848,-0.028747,0.115098,-0.017291,-0.004935,0.000692,0.078537,0.105697,-0.000812,0.013488,-0.032557,-0.01156,-0.012893,0.005967,0.028684,0.002027,-0.002765,0.007879,0.016845,0.000742,-0.021568,-0.040247,-0.00455
-2013


Iberia_Central_BA:I3756,0.124067,0.149283,0.06675, 0.001615,0.07386,-0.013666,-0.002115,-0.006,0.033951,0.06761,-0.009743,0.014387,-0.032408,-0.024497,0.007193,0.01432,0.023991,-0.002027,0.001006,-0.006628,0.00836,-0.004575,-0.006532,-0.025425,-0.004191
-1897


Iberia_Southeast_BA:I3494,0.127482,0.158423,0.0573 22,-0.017442,0.07109,-0.00753,-0.010105,0.004846,0.0452,0.073806,-0.004872,0.012439,-0.020218,-0.014588,0.00665,0.001724,-0.000261,0.009755,-0.002011,0.001,0.011355,-0.001607,-0.009244,-0.029281,0.001557
-1837


Iberia_Southwest_BA_Afr:I7162,0.103579,0.15436,0.0 43746,-0.005491,0.066782,-0.017849,-0.009635,0.001154,0.054403,0.054671,0.002923,0.004 046,-0.020664,-0.0139,0.008415,-0.007425,-0.00678,0.00114,-0.016089,-0.005253,0.002246,-0.005193,-0.008997,-0.02181,0.001916
-1812


Iberia_Formentera_MBA:I4420_all,0.120652,0.151314, 0.048649,-0.002261,0.056934,-0.009203,-0.003995,0.004384,0.035792,0.058133,-0.001461,0.01079,-0.02438,-0.022845,0.004479,0.008884,0.012126,-0.001014,-0.003268,-0.002376,0.006114,0.000124,-0.000493,-0.01687,0.002275
-1788


Iberia_Central_BA:I6618,0.119514,0.166547,0.061848 ,-0.001292,0.073244,-0.013666,-0.00611,0.000231,0.039473,0.060502,0.003573,0.0154 36,-0.020515,-0.015964,-0.003664,-0.002519,0.009127,0.000633,-0.000377,0.006628,0.00574,0.002844,-0.006409,-0.01699,0.003473
-1785


Iberia_North_BA:VAD001,0.12862,0.147252,0.053174,0 .008398,0.070475,0,-0.011516,0.007384,0.033746,0.058862,-0.003085,0.011839,-0.020515,-0.027112,0.007465,0.014585,0.022296,-0.003547,-0.012318,0.003502,0.014474,0.010016,-0.007641,-0.017111,0.001317
-1709


Iberia_Southeast_BA:I3997,0.122929,0.160454,0.0539 28,-0.002584,0.06832,-0.013108,-0.0047,0.005307,0.046836,0.072165,0.000812,0.01378 8,-0.032259,-0.032754,0.006786,0.020817,0.024121,-0.005574,-0.006662,-0.001251,0.003369,0.004946,-0.008381,-0.025184,0.000599
-1709


Iberia_North_BA:VAD004,0.120652,0.15436,0.052043,0 .006783,0.06155,-0.007809,0.004935,0.002308,0.030679,0.058133,-0.005034,0.007643,-0.034192,-0.011698,0.015201,-0.010475,0.002217,0.005701,0.009427,-0.01038,0.006738,0.006306,-0.005669,-0.012411,0.010418
-1700


Iberia_Northeast_BA:I1310,0.121791,0.152329,0.0592 08,0.007429,0.070782,-0.009482,-0.00329,-0.001846,0.039473,0.05704,-0.001299,0.010191,-0.017393,-0.017203,0.005429,0.015248,0.016298,-0.006841,-0.000628,0.002126,-0.001622,0.006183,-0.007518,-0.025064,-0.000599
-1700


Iberia_Northeast_BA:I1313_d,0.122929,0.152329,0.05 8831,-0.004845,0.064012,-0.019522,-0.008695,-0.001154,0.041927,0.047564,0.000325,0.010041,-0.029732,-0.011836,0.002036,0.010607,0.021774,0.005701,0.004 651,0.007379,0.01959,0.005935,-0.013311,-0.008555,0.001317
-1700


Iberia_Northeast_BA:I4562,0.122929,0.152329,0.0629 79,-0.001938,0.065551,-0.007251,0.00235,-0.001154,0.039473,0.055035,-0.007957,0.004346,-0.024232,-0.016102,0.004343,0.008884,0.00339,-0.000127,0.000503,0.003502,0.010232,0.004081,-0.01023,-0.022654,0.006586
-1677


Iberia_Central_BA:I6470,0.126344,0.148267,0.059962 ,0.002907,0.061858,-0.001394,-0.00799,0.001846,0.042541,0.049933,0.000974,0.0071 94,-0.022299,-0.017478,0.007329,0.003978,0.007953,0.001647,-0.000754,0.004502,0.016221,0,-0.013557,-0.023859,0.008502
-1643


Iberia_North_BA:VAD005,0.121791,0.157407,0.055437, 0.008721,0.072013,0.003347,-0.00188,-0.007154,0.03845,0.053942,-0.008931,0.005845,-0.015163,-0.018854,0.007057,0.013657,0.026729,0.006714,0.005 028,0.002626,0.006364,0.000742,-0.016392,-0.022172,-0.001796
-1639


Iberia_Northeast_BA:I4559,0.12862,0.14319,0.062979 ,0.006783,0.07386,-0.004462,0.006345,0.000231,0.047859,0.062689,0.000 325,0.008093,-0.021407,-0.020368,-0.000679,0.02254,0.015646,-0.005068,0.00176,0.013506,0.010731,0.004328,-0.010723,-0.016267,0.002395
-1600


Iberia_Northeast_BA:I4560,0.127482,0.151314,0.0599 62,0.008398,0.063704,-0.005578,-0.00658,0.004154,0.025361,0.061049,-0.008931,0.007793,-0.029435,-0.019267,-0.005157,0.009016,0.025816,0.001394,-0.005656,0.003752,0.003119,-0.006677,-0.015406,-0.015183,0.003233
-1600


Iberia_Northeast_BA:I4561,0.130897,0.144205,0.0644 88,0.011305,0.065858,0.004462,0.00235,0,0.041723,0 .054853,-0.003897,0.015137,-0.026164,-0.018029,-0.000271,0.003713,-0.002868,0.008108,0.006662,0.001751,0.015348,-0.003957,-0.016392,-0.014219,-0.001078
-1600


Iberia_Northeast_BA:I4563,0.126344,0.149283,0.0599 62,0.001615,0.072013,-0.00502,0.00235,-0.000923,0.035792,0.054124,-0.001786,0.010641,-0.027354,-0.023121,-0.001764,0.004243,0.002868,-0.000507,0.001885,0.00075,0.020214,-0.00136,-0.02391,-0.012532,-0.001557
-1600


Iberia_Northeast_BA:I1836,0.129758,0.157407,0.0584 54,-0.00323,0.059396,-0.000558,-0.00141,-0.003231,0.039064,0.04811,0.00065,0.006145,-0.029435,-0.021332,0.002443,0.011535,0.008214,0.000127,-0.00176,-0.001251,0.008859,0.010016,-0.007765,-0.016629,-0.007544
-1593


Iberia_North_BA:I2471,0.126344,0.155376,0.058077,-0.001292,0.063704,0.00251,0.000235,0.013153,0.0255 65,0.048839,-0.004384,0.010191,-0.018583,-0.005643,0.006107,-0.001193,-0.004042,0.006968,-0.005908,-0.002001,0.005989,0.011747,-0.009983,-0.003976,0.00455
-1541


Iberia_North_BA:I1840,0.127482,0.155376,0.059585,0 .003553,0.077245,-0.005299,-0.005405,0.003,0.034565,0.052484,-0.001624,0.014687,-0.020664,-0.018166,0.001764,0.018563,0.021122,0.002027,0.002 137,0.005628,0.010856,0.003586,-0.004067,-0.034463,0.010059
-1531


Iberia_Central_BA:I3490,0.129758,0.153345,0.070522 ,0.005168,0.069551,-0.006414,-0.00987,-0.003923,0.039678,0.05212,-0.004872,0.015886,-0.018285,-0.011147,0.008143,0.008221,0.008084,0.000507,0.002 765,-0.005127,0.007986,0.004451,-0.018487,-0.033258,-0.005149
-1500


Iberia_Southeast_BA:I8136,0.125205,0.15436,0.05392 8,-0.004845,0.069244,-0.006693,-0.00752,0.009,0.055221,0.06925,-0.001786,0.014687,-0.030773,-0.013487,0.000814,-0.001193,0.004172,-0.004181,0.010307,-0.007379,0.012104,0.003215,-0.002095,-0.020003,-0.005149
-1478


Iberia_Central_BA:I3493,0.127482,0.13405,0.050534,-0.001615,0.066782,-0.004183,-0.00752,0.006692,0.038655,0.050479,-0.012342,0.010491,-0.02557,-0.021332,0.010993,0.02148,0.011735,0.00114,-0.006034,0.002876,0.022336,0.005441,0.001972,-0.008435,0.008382
-1351


Iberia_North_BA:I2470,0.120652,0.158423,0.05506,0. 000969,0.062781,-0.007251,-0.00141,0.004384,0.041927,0.057951,-0.002761,0.007793,-0.016353,-0.011147,0.001357,-0.006497,-0.01369,0.011655,-0.005405,-0.014507,0.010606,0.001484,-0.012325,-0.0241,-0.002036
-1319


Iberia_Central_BA:I12208,0.119514,0.155376,0.04902 6,-0.001292,0.067089,-0.00753,-0.00141,-0.000692,0.044791,0.055582,0.00065,0.015736,-0.026016,-0.023946,0.006515,0.014585,0.024251,-0.006208,-0.004902,-0.003627,0.010232,-0.00272,-0.010969,-0.016629,-0.001557
-1300


Iberia_Central_BA:I12209,0.120652,0.147252,0.05883 1,-0.002907,0.068013,-0.005578,-0.001645,0.000923,0.037837,0.049022,0.000812,0.011 24,-0.025124,-0.022983,0.009772,0.012198,0.024121,0.001394,-0.006788,0.006378,0.009733,-0.006677,-0.008011,-0.017231,0.010418
-1300


Iberia_Southeast_BA:I8570,0.132035,0.155376,0.0573 22,-0.004522,0.058472,0.000279,-0.0047,0.002308,0.044995,0.05376,-0.001624,0.005695,-0.020069,-0.010046,0.00665,0.001326,-0.007041,-0.006714,0.00088,0.008879,0.008111,-0.002226,0.000246,-0.010242,-0.001197
-1150




Y estas son todas las muestras antiguas con el Haplogrupo R-DF27:



Lab name
Version-ID
Skeletal name
Y-DNA
mtDNA
SNPs
Date
Culture
Group
Label
Site
Country


GBVPK

GBVPK44_AMIS_2_02260
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195
J>J2>J2b>J2b1>J2b1a
-2387
Bell_Beaker
Bell Beaker France Pyrenean
Grotte Basse de la Vigne Perdue, les Monges
France


I0806
I0806
QLB28, QLB28b_10321, KC554010.1
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27
H>H1
138919
-2267
Bell_Beaker
BK_Germany_SAN
Germany_BellBeaker
Quedlinburg
Germany


I8561
I8561
Abisso del Vento 2017 (Grotto)
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195
K>K1>K1b>K1b1>K1b1-x
906209
-2262
Sicily_EBA
Sicily_EBA
Italy_Sicily_EBA_o1
Sicily, Isnello
Italy


I3123
I3123
BU31, grave 3031
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z198
U>U2'3'4'7'8'9>U8>U8b'c>U8b>U8b1>U8b1b>U8b1b1
898425
-2171
Sicily_EBA
Sicily_EBA
Italy_Sicily_EBA
Sicily, Buffa
Italy


I3756
I3756
TEBO'03, D8 UE12; Tumba 1
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12_1>FGC78762>BY21074>BY21075>FT5780
H>H1
604170
-1910
Iberia_BA
Cogotas I
Spain_EBA
Castillejo del Bonete, Terrinches, Ciudad Real, Castilla-La Mancha
Spain


I3494
I3494
CF-1
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12_1>BY3332
J>J1>J1c>J1c1>J1c1b
698862
-1831
Iberia_BA
SE_Iberia_BA
Spain_EBA
Coveta del Frare, La Font de la Figuera, València/Valencia, Valencian Community
Spain


OBE3626-1
OBE3626-1.SG
OBE3626-1
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12_1>Z225
R>R1>R1b
225156
-1824
France_EBA
Early Bronze Age
France_GrandEst_EBA.SG
Obernai
France


I1312
I1312_d
E-459_No6
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195
R>R0>HV>HV0>HV0-T195C!
157827
-1700
Iberia_BA
North-East Iberia BA
Spain_EBA
Can Roqueta II, Sabadell, Barcelona, Catalonia
Spain


VAD001
VAD001
E45
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12_1>Z225
U>U5>U5a'b>U5b>U5b1
570346
-1691
Iberia_BA
North Iberia BA
Spain_EBA
Valdescusa, Hervías, La Rioja
Spain


I6470
I6470
RISE912
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12_1>FT9510>FT10154
J>J1>J1c>J1c1
687251
-1659
Iberia_BA
Cogotas I
Spain_EBA
Virgazal, Tablada de Rudrón, Burgos, Castilla y León
Spain


I4563
I4563
GC.2.150.n170 and GC.2.149.n169
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z198>Y29886>PH1909>YP5900
R>R0>HV>H
420119
-1600
Iberia_BA
North-East Iberia BA
Spain_EBA_1d.rel.I4561
Galls Carboners, Mont-ral, Tarragona, Catalonia
Spain


I1840
I1840
ES.2/4-1
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12_1>BY3332>BY128991
H>H3>H3ap
661465
-1525
Iberia_BA
North Iberia BA
Spain_EBA
El Sotillo, Laguardia, Araba/Álava, Basque Country
Spain


esp005
esp005.SG
CL1, ERS2059523
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12_1>BY15963
K>K1>K1a
943381
-1450
Iberia_BA
Cogotas
Spain_BA.SG
Cueva de los Lagos, La Rioja
Spain


I12209
I12209
SRH-03
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27
H>H1>H1ah
899574
-1300
Iberia_BA
Cogotas I
Spain_MBA
La Requejada, San Román de Hornija, Valladolid, Castilla y León
Spain


I3315
I3315
NT14
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27
U>U5>U5a'b>U5b>U5b1>U5b1-T16189C!>U5b1c
798836
-859
Menorca_LBA
Menorca_LBA
Spain_LBA_Menorca_dup.I22306
Balearic Islands, Menorca, Naveta des Tudons
Spain


I3324
I3324
4976
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z274>Z209
H>H1
247012
-273
Iberia_IA
Iberian culture
Spain_IA_o
Puig de Sant Andreu, Ullastret, Girona, Catalonia
Spain


I3496
I3496_published
MC-1573
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z198>ZS312>BY3214>CTS9993
H>H1>H1e>H1e1>H1e1a
136968
-250
Iberia_IA
Iberian culture
Spain_IA_published
Turó de Ca n’Oliver, Cerdanyola, Barcelona, Catalonia
Spain


I3320
I3320
S-EVA 9305; Ind 1
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12_1>Z225
N>N1'5>N1>N1a>N1a1'2>N1a1>N1a1b>I>I1
403351
-200
Iberia_IA
Iberian culture
Spain_IA_published
Els Estrets de la Rata, Vilafamés, Castelló/Castellón, Valencian Community
Spain


UN85


R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27
H>H2>H2a>H2a2>H2a2a
183736
-200
France_IA
Gaul

Urville-Nacqueville necropolis
France


I8206
I8206
12-SU-33-A4-T680
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27
H>H7>H7a>H7a1
425016
-153
Iberia_Hel
NE Iberia Hellenistic (Empúries1)
Spain_Hellenistic_oLocal
Empúries, Girona, Catalonia
Spain


I3576
I3576
sepultura 27
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12_1>BY3332>PH4023>PH3162
T>T2>T2c>T2c1>T2c1a>T2c1a2
825464
482
Iberia_EMA
SE_Iberia_c.5-8CE
Spain_Visigoth_Granada
El Castillón, Montefrío, Granada, Andalusia
Spain


I3582
I3582
sepultura 77
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z274>Z209>FGC83504>Z295>Z270>Z211
K>K1>K1b>K1b1>K1b1-x>K1b1a
332438
500
Iberia_EMA
SE_Iberia_c.5-8CE
Spain_Visigoth_Granada
El Castillón, Montefrío, Granada, Andalusia
Spain


SZ5
SZ5.SG
SZO005.A0101, SRR6703600
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z198>ZS312>FGC39110>BY3195>BY3194
J>J2>J2b>J2b1
1176362
508
Germanic
Longobard migration
Hungary_Langobard.SG
Szólád, Hungary
Hungary


B67


R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z274>Z209>FGC83504>Z295>Z270>Z211>Z297>CTS2608>Z278>Z697>Z214>Z279>CTS8087>M153
R>R0>HV>H
600
Iberia_EMA
North Iberia Early Middle Ages
Aldaieta
Spain


B68


R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z274>Z209>FGC83504>Z295>Z270>Z211>Z297>CTS2608>Z278>Z697>Z214>Z279>CTS8087>M153
R>R0>HV>H
600
Iberia_EMA
North Iberia Early Middle Ages
Aldaieta
Spain


VK329
VK329.SG
Denmark_Ribe 8
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z274>Z209>FGC83504>Z295>S25783>CTS4065>S16864>S18894
H>H3>H3-T152C!
800874
767
Viking
Viking Denmark
Denmark_Viking.SG
Jutland
Denmark


I7672
I7672
T-120-1
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z198>ZS312>Z267>SRY2627>Z200>Z202
T>T2>T2h
57994
797
Iberia_EMA
North East Iberia Early Medieval
Spain_Carolingian
L'Esquerda, Roda de Ter, Barcelona, Catalonia
Spain


VK87
VK87.SG
Denmark_Hesselbjerg Grav 41b, sk PC
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z198
K>K1>K1c>K1c2
1049625
875
Viking
Viking Denmark
Denmark_Viking.SG
Jutland
Denmark


VK166
VK166.SG
UK_Oxford_#4; UK_Oxford_sk 1891
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z198>ZS312>Z267>SRY2627>Z200>Z202>Z205>CTS606>FT406551>CTS5337>CTS3555>BY814>Z29713>A7101>Y30608>BY67003>BY129880>BY45170
H>H3>H3ag
1087312
940
Viking
Viking UK
England_Viking.SG
Oxford
UK


VK147
VK147.SG
UK_Oxford_#11; UK_Oxford_sk 1864
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z274>DF17>CTS13028>FT44718>FGC14113>BY31082>Y31431>Y75899
T>T1>T1a>T1a-T152C!>T1a1'3>T1a1>T1a1q
617085
940
Viking
Viking UK
England_Viking.SG
Oxford
UK


VK365
VK365.SG
Denmark_Bogovej BS
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12_1>BY3289>Y6954>Y6951>Y6949>Y15637>BY34800
U>U2'3'4'7'8'9>U8>U8a>U8a2
628877
950
Viking
Viking Denmark
Denmark_Viking.SG
Langeland
Denmark


VK261
VK261.SG
UK_Dorset-3736
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12_1>FGC78762>ZZ19_1>Z31644>FGC78763>FGC13128>BY64643
H>H-T152C!>H52
749188
997
Viking
Viking UK
England_Viking.SG
Dorset
UK


VK403
VK403.SG
Sweden_Skara 217
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z198>ZS312>Z267>SRY2627>Z200>Z202>Z205>Z206>BY3222
K>K1>K1a>K1a4>K1a4a>K1a4a1>K1a4a1a>K1a4a1a2>K1a4a1a2b
891640
1050
Viking
Viking Sweden
Sweden_Viking.SG
Skara
Sweden


SI-41
SI-41.SG
SI-41
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27
V>V40
1090200
1240
Levant_MA
Lebanon Middle Ages
Lebanon_Medieval_o1.SG
Sidon
Lebanon


SNN002
SNN002
SSSN 02 1065
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z274
H>H1>H1j>H1j2>H1j2a
138309
1346
Sardinia_MA
Sardinia Medieval
Italy_Sardinia_Medieval
Sassari, SAS
Italy


R1220
R1220.SG
RMPR-1220
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12_1>FGC78762>BY21074>BY21075>FT5780>PH2781
T>T2>T2r
781723
1485
Italy_Renaissance
Rome_Medieval/EarlyModern
Italy_Medieval_EarlyModern_oCentralEuropean.SG
Cancelleria
Italy


win001

win001_bone
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z274>Z209>FGC83504>Z295>Z270>Z211>Z297>CTS2608>Z278>PH1171>S8067>BY54766
H>H3>H3b>H3b7
1642
Sweden_Early_Modern
Sweden Early Modern
Lund Cathedral
Sweden


win002

win002_bone
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z274>DF17>CTS13028>FT44718>A4658>FT56517>BY27644>BY1806
U>U5>U5a'b>U5a>U5a1>U5a1-T16192C!>U5a1a>U5a1a1
1642
Sweden_Early_Modern
Sweden Early Modern
Lund Cathedral
Sweden




Hola Ajeje.

Hace unos años Genetiker propuso que ATP3 debería ser R1b1a2-M269:

ATP3 Pre-Beaker Copper Age 3516–3362 BC R1b1a1a2-M269

Este individuo no lo tienes en la tabla. ¿Sabes si ya hay un resultado concluyente?

Saludos.

Ajeje Brazorf
08-22-2021, 02:12 PM
Hola Ajeje.

Hace unos años Genetiker propuso que ATP3 debería ser R1b1a2-M269:

ATP3 Pre-Beaker Copper Age 3516–3362 BC R1b1a1a2-M269

Este individuo no lo tienes en la tabla. ¿Sabes si ya hay un resultado concluyente?

Saludos.

Esa muestra no está en el conjunto de datos de Global25. Sí, definitivamente creo que su haplogrupo paterno es R-M207>M173.

castrogonzalo
08-22-2021, 05:22 PM
Esa muestra no está en el conjunto de datos de Global25. Sí, definitivamente creo que su haplogrupo paterno es R-M207>M173.

¡Es un resultado muy importante porque eso significa que el y hg R1b-M269 estaba en Iberia 1000 años antes de la llegada de los R1b indoeuropeos!

Si tienes la referencia, te agradecería mucho que me la enviaras para tener algún trabajo que citar.

Ajeje Brazorf
08-22-2021, 08:51 PM
¡Es un resultado muy importante porque eso significa que el y hg R1b-M269 estaba en Iberia 1000 años antes de la llegada de los R1b indoeuropeos!

Si tienes la referencia, te agradecería mucho que me la enviaras para tener algún trabajo que citar.

No sé si el haplogrupo que mencioné es el mismo del que hablas (no soy experto en haplogrupos). Pero estos son todos los haplogrupos paternos de las muestras ibéricas, en orden ascendente de más antiguo a más reciente.



Scaled G25
Object-ID
Y-DNA
Date
Simplified_Culture



El Sidron 1253
A000-T>A000>A000b
-41090
Neanderthal


Iberia_Southeast_Meso:I10899,0.097888,0.059916,0.1 14268,0.14632,0.112944,0.030399,0.005405,0.017307, 0.089172,0.024784,-0.00747,-0.011989,0.008771,-0.010872,0.037866,0.045213,0.002217,0.012289,-0.00817,0.052025,0.084725,0.013725,-0.045725,-0.147129,0.019399
I10899
I-L758>M170>Z2699
-22500
Iberia_HG


Iberia_Northeast_UP_Azilian:BAL051,0.101303,0.0761 65,0.144814,0.163762,0.136641,0.042112,0.00235,0.0 32537,0.08999,0.02934,-0.012666,-0.009891,-0.001338,-0.016652,0.047909,0.050119,0.00013,0.006461,-0.008925,0.058528,0.092337,0.014838,-0.052997,-0.158095,0.012095
BAL051
I-L758>M170>Z2699
-11065
Iberia_HG



BAL003
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P37
-9958
Iberia_HG



I8130
CT-M168
-6007
Iberia_HG



I0843
C-M216>F3393>CTS11043>V3177>V20>FT368070
-5903
Iberia_HG



I0585
C-M216>F3393>CTS11043>V3177>V20>FT368070
-5875
Iberia_HG



I3209
F-M89
-5865
Iberia_HG


Iberia_N:I0412,0.121791,0.171624,0.025644,-0.064923,0.06832,-0.044344,-0.00329,-0.005307,0.054608,0.094763,0.006496,0.01109,-0.029881,-0.022157,-0.017101,0.006895,0.018254,0.005954,0.003645,-0.00988,-0.006863,-0.000371,-0.008997,-0.017834,-0.000479
I0412
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P37>M423>S2770>CTS5375>L161>FGC7113>S2639>A812
-5227
Iberia_EN



I0411
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>PF6323>V88>PF6287>FGC21056>FGC21027
-5181
Iberia_EN


Iberia_N:I0410,0.119514,0.187873,0.028284,-0.086241,0.076014,-0.037929,-0.00235,-0.001615,0.06463,0.112986,0.009094,0.023229,-0.044004,-0.012524,-0.010179,-0.012331,0.00013,0.004054,-0.002388,-0.013131,-0.002121,-0.001484,-0.012202,-0.021087,0.000718
I0410
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>PF6323>V88>PF6287>FGC21056>FGC21027
-5180
Iberia_EN


Iberia_N:mur,0.136588,0.161469,0.02489,-0.046835,0.078476,-0.019243,-0.003055,0.001154,0.073833,0.101506,-0.002598,0.016036,-0.037165,-0.019405,-0.019272,-0.010475,0.007432,0.003801,0.014832,0.006378,0.018 093,-0.00507,-0.00456,-0.036029,-0.004431
mur
G-M201>L89>L156>P15>L1259>PF3146>PF3148>PF3177>FGC34625
-5177
Iberia_N



CHA001_merged
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P37>M423
-5177
Iberia_EN



CHA002
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>PF6323>V88>PF6287>FGC21056>FGC21027
-5177
Iberia_EN



CHA003
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P37>M423>S2770>CTS5375
-5125
Iberia_EN



atp005
G-M201>L89>L156>P15>L1259>PF3146
-5119
Iberia_EN



FUC003
G-M201>L89>L156>P15>L1259>PF3146>PF3148
-5069
Iberia_EN



Ave07
E-M96>CTS9083>P147>P177>M215>M35>V68>M78>PF2179>Z1919>L618
-5050
Iberia_N



Ave01
G-M201>L89>L156>P15
-5050
Iberia_N



Ave02
G-M201>L89>L156>P15
-5050
Iberia_N



Ave03
G-M201>L89>L156>P15
-5050
Iberia_N



Ave05
G-M201>L89>L156>P15
-5050
Iberia_N



Ave06
G-M201>L89>L156>P15
-5050
Iberia_N



TOR.12
BT-M42
-5030
Iberia_N



TOR.5
G-M201>L89>L156>P15>L1259>L30>L141>P303>BY28175>Z6885>Z39358>Z39310
-5030
Iberia_N



LugarCanto45
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P37>M423
-4000
Iberia_MLN



ELT006
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P37>CTS595>M26
-3859
Iberia_EN



I7643
H-L901>P96>Z19008>Z19080>SK1180
-3835
Iberia_MLN



ELT002
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P37>CTS595>M26
-3803
Iberia_EN



I7645
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P37
-3770
Iberia_MLN


Iberia_MN:I0405,0.1161,0.162485,0.057699,-0.038114,0.082477,-0.024821,-0.002585,-0.000231,0.067084,0.08638,0.000974,0.016186,-0.038652,-0.020368,-0.003529,0.000928,0.013038,-0.003674,-0.006285,-0.004752,0.018842,0.008037,-0.013927,-0.0435,0.000958
I0405
H-L901>P96>Z19008>Z19080>SK1180>Z19089>Z19049>BY84221
-3750
Iberia_MN


Iberia_MN:I0406,0.124067,0.156392,0.050911,-0.033592,0.082477,-0.014781,-0.010105,0.003692,0.063198,0.087656,-0.00341,0.008093,-0.024826,-0.015138,-0.007465,-0.00716,-0.00352,0.006461,0.000503,-0.005753,0.015972,0.004822,-0.014666,-0.035186,0.009819
I0406
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P214>M223>P222>CTS616>CTS10057>Z161
-3750
Iberia_MN



san216
H-L901
-3707
Iberia_LN



I7647
F-M89
-3695
Iberia_MLN



c40331
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P214>M223>P222>CTS616>CTS10057>Z161
-3680
Iberia_LN



I7597
CT-M168
-3675
Iberia_MLN


Iberia_Southeast_MLN:I7601,0.1161,0.166547,0.04902 6,-0.028747,0.084323,-0.024542,-0.01034,0.001615,0.070561,0.094945,0.003897,0.0127 39,-0.024826,-0.003165,-0.008686,-0.019756,-0.014603,0.008868,0.004777,0.007629,0.011854,0.021 763,-0.025512,-0.040608,0.005149
I7601
G-M201>L89>L156>P15>L1259>PF3146>PF3148
-3590
Iberia_MLN


Iberia_Southeast_MLN:I7644,0.126344,0.167562,0.048 649,-0.052003,0.087709,-0.036814,-0.00752,-0.001385,0.057471,0.082188,-0.000162,0.02218,-0.036422,-0.020919,-0.019815,0.015911,0.021122,0.005701,-0.001634,-0.003502,0.003119,0.009398,-0.012078,-0.040849,0.001676
I7644
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P37>M423>S2770>CTS5375>L161>FGC7113>S2639>L1498
-3510
Iberia_MLN


Iberia_Southeast_MLN:I7598,0.12862,0.170609,0.0411 06,-0.042636,0.07663,-0.021475,-0.012221,-0.004846,0.067084,0.095127,-0.005684,0.018733,-0.036719,-0.020231,-0.016015,-0.005304,-0.000913,-0.002914,0.005154,-0.004877,0.005116,0.000495,-0.015283,-0.034704,0.001916
I7598
G-M201>L89>L156>P15>L1259>PF3146>PF3148
-3500
Iberia_MLN



DolmenAnsiao96B
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P37>CTS595>M26>PF3981>CTS1132>L160
-3500
Iberia_MLN



ATP3
R-M207>M173
-3447
Iberia_CA



Matojo
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P214>M223>P222>S9403
-3445
Iberia_CA



I8567
H-L901>P96>Z19008>Z19080>SK1180>Z19089>Z19049>BY84221
-3400
Iberia_MLN



I3214
H-L901>P96
-3250
Iberia_MLN


Iberia_Southwest_CA:I5428,0.130897,0.153345,0.0463 86,-0.027455,0.084631,-0.028168,-0.001645,-0.002308,0.063811,0.093123,0.007957,0.018883,-0.033895,-0.013625,-0.007872,0.006629,0.025034,0.005068,0.002388,0.003 502,0.01672,0.011129,-0.015529,-0.040126,0.001796
I5428
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P37>M423>S2770>CTS5375
-3215
Iberia_CA



por002
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P37>M423
-3161
Iberia_CA



MC337A
H-L901>P96
-3107
Iberia_LN


Iberia_Southwest_CA:I11600,0.126344,0.165531,0.059 208,-0.027455,0.089247,-0.022032,-0.0094,-0.002077,0.082014,0.12228,0.002436,0.023079,-0.048463,-0.032479,-0.020629,0.000398,0.02047,0.014442,0.003645,0.0051 27,0.02558,0.009274,-0.025882,-0.11098,0.027423
I11600
G-M201>L89>L156>P15>L1259>PF3146>PF3148>PF3177>FGC34625
-3100
Iberia_CA


Iberia_North_MLN:I7604,0.134311,0.156392,0.067505,-0.022933,0.08894,-0.010598,-0.009635,0.005077,0.062584,0.094945,0.000325,0.017 834,-0.029732,-0.010459,-0.006243,-0.003845,0.014342,-0.004181,-0.005279,0.010255,0.015223,0.006306,-0.008627,-0.042657,-0.001557
I7604
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P214>M223>P222>S9403>S12377>L1228>S10631
-3100
Iberia_MLN


Iberia_North_MLN:I7605,0.122929,0.166547,0.073161,-0.014858,0.09294,-0.028168,-0.00846,-0.006231,0.069947,0.090389,-0.003897,0.016635,-0.026016,-0.017891,-0.0038,0.003315,0.005998,-0.009375,-0.001508,-0.002251,0.016221,-0.007914,-0.009737,-0.052658,0.007185
I7605
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P214>M223>P222>S9403>S12377>L1228>S10631
-3100
Iberia_MLN


Iberia_North_MLN:I11248,0.135449,0.167562,0.070899 ,-0.017119,0.098788,-0.020638,-0.0094,0.002538,0.059516,0.093487,0.000325,0.01318 8,-0.028692,-0.019818,-0.013436,0.011668,0.005737,0.002914,0.001634,-0.007003,0.01959,0.006059,-0.020336,-0.046272,0.000838
I11248
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P214>M223>P222>S9403>S12377>L1228>S10631>BY37398
-3100
Iberia_MLN


Iberia_North_MLN:I11249,0.132035,0.159438,0.065619 ,-0.01615,0.09571,-0.016455,-0.00705,0.007154,0.075878,0.08474,-0.001299,0.013488,-0.02661,-0.018304,-0.0038,0.019358,0.024903,0.002407,-0.002263,-0.003252,0.008235,0.005688,-0.015406,-0.039162,0.000359
I11249
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P214>M223>P222>S9403>S12377>L1228>S10631>BY37398
-3100
Iberia_MLN


Iberia_North_MLN:I7602,0.126344,0.159438,0.071653,-0.023256,0.086785,-0.019522,-0.00658,0.000462,0.065039,0.084922,-0.002761,0.007793,-0.032408,-0.01734,-0.006922,0.006099,0.004694,0.000507,-0.005405,0.003377,0.017719,0.007419,-0.013311,-0.049525,0.012454
I7602
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P214>M223>P222>S9403>S12377>L1228>S10631>BY37398
-3100
Iberia_MLN


Iberia_North_MLN:I7603,0.124067,0.17264,0.066373,-0.021318,0.101557,-0.022032,-0.002115,0.010846,0.068925,0.088567,-0.007145,0.018134,-0.037462,-0.007982,0.004207,-0.014717,-0.008084,0.002154,0.005908,-0.001,0.013351,0.008408,-0.012941,-0.032173,-0.001197
I7603
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P214>M223>P222>S9403>S12377>L1228>S10631>BY37398
-3100
Iberia_MLN


Iberia_North_MLN:I7606,0.136588,0.167562,0.074293,-0.01938,0.096326,-0.020638,0.000705,0.007615,0.058698,0.089478,-0.001786,0.012589,-0.027056,-0.024222,-0.000271,0.016574,0.020079,0.002154,0.009427,-0.001751,0.014849,0.003833,-0.007888,-0.039524,0.008023
I7606
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P214>M223>P222>S9403>S12377>L1228>S10631>BY37398
-3100
Iberia_MLN


Iberia_Southwest_CA:I11599,0.111547,0.155376,0.052 043,-0.028424,0.091709,-0.02008,-0.008695,-0.002769,0.06872,0.101506,0.001624,0.013488,-0.02884,-0.015689,-0.005565,0.006629,0.008084,-0.004941,-0.006034,-0.002001,0.023833,0.015828,-0.01935,-0.041331,-0.002874
I11599
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P37>CTS595>M26>PF3981>CTS1132>L160
-3100
Iberia_CA



CabecoArruda117B
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P37>M423>S2770>CTS5375
-3100
Iberia_CA



I3272
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P214>M223
-3009
Iberia_CA



I3276
G-M201>L89>L156>P15>L1259>PF3146
-3005
Iberia_CA



por004
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P214
-3005
Iberia_CA



MonteCanelas337A
H-L901>P96
-3004
Iberia_CA



CDP006
H-L901>P96
-3000
Iberia_N_Ch



CDP009
H-L901>P96
-3000
Iberia_N_Ch



CDP003
H-L901>P96>Z19008>Z19080>SK1180
-3000
Iberia_N_Ch



CLL011
H-L901>P96>Z19008>Z19080>SK1180
-3000
Iberia_N_Ch



CDP002
H-L901>P96>Z19008>Z19080>SK1180>Z19089>Z19049
-3000
Iberia_N_Ch



I1975
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P214
-2977
Iberia_CA


Iberia_Northeast_CA:I4565,0.129758,0.167562,0.0561 91,-0.029393,0.08617,-0.0251,-0.006815,-0.001615,0.066061,0.099319,-0.001299,0.014987,-0.032408,-0.015276,-0.005565,0.008618,0.008214,0.013429,0.004777,-0.003126,0.016221,0.007419,-0.018734,-0.043259,0.002515
I4565
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P214>M223>P222>S9403>S12377>L1228>S10631
-2965
Iberia_CA



I10282
BT-M42
-2950
Iberia_MLN


Iberia_Northeast_MLN:I10280,0.130897,0.165531,0.05 5814,-0.045543,0.094171,-0.027331,-0.002115,-0.000462,0.056653,0.090936,-0.00341,0.018883,-0.032111,-0.025598,-0.004343,-0.003182,-0.002217,-0.005068,-0.000754,-0.005628,0.010232,0.008656,-0.020459,-0.03868,-0.003832
I10280
G-M201>L89>L156>P15>L1259>L30>L141>PF3359>PF3430>PF3369>PF3422>PF3355>PF3378
-2950
Iberia_MLN


Iberia_Northeast_MLN:I11305,0.130897,0.168578,0.04 2992,-0.050065,0.078784,-0.023148,-0.000705,0.006461,0.061971,0.096221,0.001137,0.023 979,-0.038354,-0.02491,-0.016558,0.009812,0.021253,0.000253,-0.005782,-0.005378,0.01123,0.001484,-0.01442,-0.020605,0.000599
I11305
G-M201>L89>L156>P15>L1259>PF3146>PF3148>PF3177>FGC34625
-2950
Iberia_MLN



I10286
I-L758>M170
-2950
Iberia_MLN



I10283
I-L758>M170>P215
-2950
Iberia_MLN



I10284
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P214
-2950
Iberia_MLN


Iberia_Northeast_MLN:I10287,0.117238,0.169593,0.04 3369,-0.033915,0.093864,-0.028447,-0.002115,-0.000692,0.054812,0.095492,-0.004872,0.017385,-0.031516,-0.018166,-0.013029,0.013259,0.024512,-0.000633,-0.004525,-0.001376,0.012977,0.008656,-0.020213,-0.032776,-0.004431
I10287
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P214>M223
-2950
Iberia_MLN



I11304
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P214>M223
-2950
Iberia_MLN


Iberia_Northeast_MLN:I10277,0.121791,0.173656,0.05 0911,-0.034884,0.090786,-0.01757,-0.004935,0.003,0.066061,0.090754,-0.003573,0.020532,-0.023786,-0.013349,-0.009636,0.011933,0.020079,0.005321,-0.005154,-0.005127,0.003369,0.000742,-0.015406,-0.034704,0.000838
I10277
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P37>CTS595>M26
-2950
Iberia_MLN


Iberia_Northeast_MLN:I10278,0.121791,0.17264,0.050 157,-0.044574,0.088324,-0.017849,-0.000705,0.006,0.072197,0.101141,0.005359,0.012889 ,-0.0278,-0.01156,0.003257,-0.011005,-0.009518,0.006461,0.002388,-0.000625,0.009109,0.000495,-0.017748,-0.046754,0.007065
I10278
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P37>M423
-2950
Iberia_MLN



atp016
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P214>M223>P222>S9403>S12377>L1228>S10631>BY37404
-2918
Iberia_CA


Iberia_Southwest_CA:I5429,0.125205,0.161469,0.0452 54,-0.033915,0.079399,-0.032072,-0.001175,-0.003461,0.062993,0.092758,0.004872,0.014087,-0.035381,-0.009358,-0.002714,-0.005171,-0.002999,0.004561,0.001006,-0.004377,0.015722,0.004946,-0.021815,-0.039644,0.005269
I5429
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P37>CTS595>M26>PF3981>CTS1132>L160
-2916
Iberia_CA


Iberia_North_CA:I1842,0.135449,0.166547,0.072784,-0.021641,0.087401,-0.014781,-0.003525,0.009692,0.070152,0.093852,0.00341,0.0152 86,-0.027948,-0.021607,-0.015201,-0.002121,0.001695,0.003167,0.003645,-0.006753,0.015597,-0.00136,-0.016392,-0.044344,0.004431
I1842
G-M201>L89>L156>P15>L1259>PF3146>PF3148
-2900
Iberia_CA



I3269
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P214>M223>P222>S9403>S12377>L1228
-2900
Iberia_CA



ATP17
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P214>M223
-2899
Iberia_CA


Iberia_North_CA:I1845,0.136588,0.17264,0.058077,-0.028101,0.076937,-0.015618,-0.00282,0.004846,0.069538,0.093852,0.003897,0.0215 81,-0.039544,-0.011147,0.002579,-0.017369,-0.007953,0.001647,0.006662,-0.012131,0.021462,0.004822,-0.021568,-0.033017,0.00934
I1845
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P214>M223>P222>S9403>S12377>L1228>S10631>BY37404
-2875
Iberia_CA



I2473
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P214>M223
-2861
Iberia_CA


Iberia_Southeast_MLN:I7642,0.134311,0.1635,0.04299 2,-0.043605,0.09571,-0.032072,-0.00329,0.001385,0.065652,0.102417,0.000974,0.0193 33,-0.037314,-0.017203,-0.002307,-0.002254,-0.002738,0.00266,-0.001257,-0.01063,0.015348,-0.000371,-0.009367,-0.037837,0.000239
I7642
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P214>M223>P222>S9403
-2834
Iberia_MLN



I11604
I-L758>M170
-2800
Iberia_CA


Iberia_Southwest_CA:I11605,0.127482,0.164516,0.056 945,-0.022287,0.084323,-0.023985,-0.002115,0.006461,0.06872,0.085469,-0.003248,0.01139,-0.037314,-0.018166,0.002307,0.007027,0.024903,-0.00228,-0.010182,0.008629,0.013851,0.012365,-0.022801,-0.037114,0.00479
I11605
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P37>CTS595>M26
-2800
Iberia_CA



atp002
H-L901>P96>Z19008>Z19080>SK1180>Z19089>Z19049
-2796
Iberia_CA



I0581
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P214>M223>P222>S9403
-2796
Iberia_CA



I0455
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P214>M223>P222>CTS616>CTS10057>Z161>S21760
-2787
Iberia_CA


Iberia_Southeast_CA:I8569,0.126344,0.162485,0.0482 71,-0.034238,0.081554,-0.022869,0.002115,-0.003923,0.063198,0.088202,-0.000974,0.018284,-0.026313,-0.016515,-0.0057,0.014983,0.02373,0.010769,0.007793,-0.003377,0.008235,0.006677,-0.011092,-0.024823,0.000359
I8569
G-M201>L89>L156>P15>L1259>PF3146>PF3148
-2742
Iberia_CA



I8148
F-M89
-2700
Iberia_CA



I8157
F-M89
-2700
Iberia_CA



I7588
G-M201>L89>L156
-2700
Iberia_CA



I8156
G-M201>L89>L156>P15
-2700
Iberia_CA



I7587
G-M201>L89>L156>P15>L1259>L30
-2700
Iberia_CA


Iberia_Southeast_CA:I8199,0.127482,0.167562,0.0494 03,-0.051034,0.091709,-0.025658,-0.00658,-0.000231,0.067493,0.095309,0.000974,0.019932,-0.031813,-0.017616,-0.002579,-0.005569,0.014603,0.005701,-0.003017,-0.003502,0.007861,-0.002844,-0.019473,-0.040608,0.004431
I8199
G-M201>L89>L156>P15>L1259>L30>L141>P303>L140>PF3346>PF3345>CTS342>CTS8476>S10654>CTS5990
-2700
Iberia_CA



I8153
I-L758>M170
-2700
Iberia_CA



I8158
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P214
-2700
Iberia_CA


Iberia_Southwest_CA:I6601,0.122929,0.1635,0.0445,-0.037791,0.094171,-0.022311,-0.00235,0.000923,0.069334,0.095492,0.004384,0.0113 9,-0.027948,-0.016652,-0.007872,-0.012463,-0.009388,0.006208,0.005908,-0.006378,0.013351,0.004699,-0.01479,-0.039162,0.005389
I6601
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P37>CTS595>M26>PF3981
-2700
Iberia_CA


Iberia_Southwest_CA:I11592,0.122929,0.164516,0.056 191,-0.025517,0.080938,-0.025379,-0.01034,0.002308,0.068106,0.099683,0.007795,0.0074 93,-0.035084,-0.014726,-0.00855,-0.00305,0.00352,0.000633,0.005028,-0.00963,0.002745,0.003091,-0.012325,-0.040006,0.006706
I11592
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P37>M423>S2770>CTS5375
-2700
Iberia_CA


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I1970,0.125205,0.173656,0.06750 5,-0.0323,0.079399,-0.024263,-0.00611,0.004384,0.054403,0.113533,-0.009094,0.018883,-0.041922,-0.030965,0.000271,0.010209,0.021905,-0.001014,0.009176,0.00988,0.013351,-0.00643,-0.017378,-0.045549,0.000838
I1970
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P214>M223>P222>S9403>S12377>L1228>S10631
-2685
Bell_Beaker


Iberia_Southeast_CA:I8365,0.1161,0.166547,0.041483 ,-0.049419,0.093556,-0.03263,-0.00423,0.001615,0.074038,0.085469,0.000812,0.0094 42,-0.024232,-0.012524,-0.006243,-0.001326,0.005346,-0.00266,0.00264,0.001251,0.007861,-0.006183,-0.016515,-0.027112,-0.003473
I8365
G-M201>L89>L156>P15>L1259>L30>L141>P303>L140>PF3346>PF3345>CTS342>CTS8476>S10654>CTS5990
-2638
Iberia_CA


Iberia_Southeast_CA:I8364,0.126344,0.174671,0.0554 37,-0.043928,0.078476,-0.025379,-0.015981,-0.000462,0.063811,0.089478,-0.000325,0.012889,-0.026462,-0.00812,-0.015065,-0.003713,0.009648,0.00152,0.001508,-0.010255,0.013726,0.002226,-0.010723,-0.039403,0.006706
I8364
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P37>M423>S2770>CTS5375
-2638
Iberia_CA



I6629
F-M89
-2600
Iberia_CA



I1302
G-M201>L89>L156>P15>L1259>L30>L141>PF3359
-2600
Iberia_CA



I1314
G-M201>L89>L156>P15>L1259>L30>L141>PF3359>PF3430>PF3369>PF3422>PF3355>PF3378
-2600
Iberia_CA



I6596
H-L901>P96>Z19008>Z19080>SK1180
-2600
Iberia_CA



I1282
I-L758>M170
-2600
Iberia_CA



I1284
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257
-2600
Iberia_CA



I1274
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P214>M223
-2600
Iberia_CA


Iberia_Central_CA:I6617,0.129758,0.167562,0.050911 ,-0.024871,0.090786,-0.022311,-0.00705,-0.003692,0.065652,0.093123,-0.006171,0.017684,-0.03776,-0.023671,0.000814,0.006629,0.014864,0.004561,0.003 017,-0.005002,0.014599,0.001113,-0.007148,-0.027474,0.00479
I6617
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P214>M223>P222>CTS616>CTS10057>Z161
-2600
Iberia_CA



I5838
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P214>M223>P222>S9403>S12377>L1228>S10631>BY37404
-2600
Iberia_CA



I1303
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P37>CTS595>M26>PF3981>CTS1132>L160
-2600
Iberia_CA


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I0826,0.132035,0.176702,0.06222 5,-0.029393,0.090171,-0.016455,-0.021386,0.006461,0.041927,0.098407,-0.009743,0.006444,-0.043112,-0.010459,-0.001221,-0.011668,0.021905,-0.007981,0.00817,-0.013006,0.005366,-0.015209,-0.006039,-0.040849,0.002634
I0826
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P214>M223>P222
-2572
Bell_Beaker



I0457
IJ-P124
-2550
Iberia_CA



I0261
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>PF6323>V88
-2550
Bell_Beaker



I0257
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>PF6323>V88
-2489
Bell_Beaker



I1976
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P214>M223
-2477
Iberia_CA



I1277
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P214>M223
-2453
Iberia_CA



LD270
H-L901>P96>Z19008>Z19080>SK1180>Z19089>Z19049>BY84221
-2430
Iberia_ChL


Iberia_Central_CA_Stp:EHU002,0.125205,0.15436,0.05 8831,0.022287,0.055087,-0.000279,0.0047,0.005077,0.031906,0.03991,0.00065, 0.010341,-0.029881,-0.007707,0.010993,0.011403,0.003651,0.00076,0.0020 11,0.003126,0.019216,0.006554,-0.008504,-0.019521,0.008023
EHU002
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312
-2417
Iberia_CA



I0825
G-M201>L89
-2396
Bell_Beaker



I2467
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P214>M223
-2377
Iberia_CA



I3243
P-PF5850>P295>M45
-2350
Iberia_CA


Iberia_Northwest_CA_Stp:I3238,0.119514,0.139128,0. 056191,0.035207,0.066782,-0.004183,-0.003055,-0.008077,0.024747,0.040456,0.00682,0.009741,-0.017096,-0.018166,0.016015,-0.000265,0.004955,0.007475,-0.011564,0.002751,0.007362,0.005193,-0.000863,-0.014339,-0.001916
I3238
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310
-2350
Iberia_CA


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I0460,0.12862,0.156392,0.064111 ,-0.021318,0.08894,-0.015897,-0.00564,0.001385,0.06872,0.097314,-0.004872,0.017984,-0.025124,-0.026011,0.006243,-0.00358,0.00352,0.007095,0.003268,-0.009004,0.016221,-0.002968,-0.020952,-0.04832,0.003832
I0460
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P214>M223>P222>S9403>S12377>L1228>S10631>BY37398>BY191090
-2335
Bell_Beaker



I0458
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P214>M223>P222>S9403>S12377>L1228>S10631
-2332
Bell_Beaker



I0453
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P37
-2289
Iberia_CA


Iberia_Central_CA_Afr:I4246,-0.05122,0.140143,-0.002263,-0.091086,0.0397,-0.047133,-0.036192,0.007384,0.091013,0.044283,0.012179,-0.000899,0.006987,-0.018029,0.020087,-0.016309,0.000652,-0.016596,-0.033561,0.003001,-0.011729,-0.018548,0.013064,-0.009399,0.005987
I4246
E-M96>CTS9083>P147>P177>M215>M35>V68>V2729>SK863
-2259
Bell_Beaker



I6589
F-M89
-2250
Bell_Beaker


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I6587,0.118376,0.165531,0.05807 7,-0.036499,0.089555,-0.030957,-0.01081,-0.001615,0.060539,0.094763,0.000487,0.004796,-0.036125,-0.020231,-0.003664,-0.002519,0.010431,-0.002154,-0.015335,-0.006253,0.024332,-0.009274,-0.014173,-0.030607,-0.008263
I6587
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P214>M223>P222
-2250
Bell_Beaker



CovaMoura364
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P37>M423>S2770>CTS5375
-2250
Iberia_CA



I6471
P-PF5850>P295>M45
-2250
Bell_Beaker


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I6588,0.134311,0.15436,0.061094 ,0.007429,0.053856,0.014502,0.00658,0.01823,0.0182 03,0.045741,-0.009906,0.016036,-0.025867,-0.026424,0.011265,0.012596,0.000522,0.006081,-0.002388,0.017508,0.006613,-0.015457,-0.001849,-0.003133,0.007305
I6588
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310
-2250
Bell_Beaker


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I6539,0.124067,0.149283,0.05732 2,-0.003553,0.070167,-0.001394,-0.01081,0.003692,0.030679,0.041914,0.00341,0.00524 5,-0.023637,-0.026286,0.002307,0.009414,0.024121,-0.004941,0.00264,-0.006503,0.002496,0.00371,-0.001849,-0.016147,0.003233
I6539
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312
-2250
Bell_Beaker


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I6472,0.135449,0.144205,0.07655 5,0.015181,0.048009,-0.009482,-0.015276,0.000923,0.035383,0.049933,0.001624,0.016 935,-0.029286,-0.009221,0.012758,-0.016971,0.004955,-0.003674,-0.007039,-0.002501,0.004866,0.010263,-0.006902,-0.020244,0.004431
I6472
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>U152>PF6658
-2250
Bell_Beaker


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I4229,0.120652,0.160454,0.04789 4,-0.023902,0.077553,-0.013387,-0.008695,0.005077,0.053176,0.072894,-0.003897,0.012439,-0.037611,-0.015689,-0.004072,-0.001326,0.003129,0.005574,0.000628,-0.004252,0.018218,-0.000495,-0.017624,-0.025666,-0.000239
I4229
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P37>CTS595>M26>PF3981>CTS1132>L160>F1295
-2208
Iberia_CA


Iberia_Central_CA_Stp:EHU001,0.126344,0.129988,0.0 50157,0.041344,0.037853,0.011156,0.003995,0.000462 ,0.015135,0.024784,-0.002436,0.008842,-0.017245,-0.013625,0.024294,0.008088,-0.000652,0.006968,0.004022,-0.000125,0.002371,0.00136,0,-0.003856,0.007664
EHU001
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51
-2171
Iberia_CA


Bell_Beaker_Iberia_C:I6542,0.133173,0.157407,0.061 094,-0.022933,0.093248,-0.00251,0.00141,0.008538,0.063402,0.090025,-0.002273,0.012589,-0.030178,-0.018854,-0.013436,0.003315,0.028945,0.004941,-0.000754,0.013757,0.015722,-0.003586,-0.013188,-0.053984,-0.011376
I6542
H-L901>P96
-2150
Bell_Beaker



I6543
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P37>M423
-2150
Iberia_CA



I6622
P-PF5850>P295>M45
-2150
Bell_Beaker


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I5665,0.126344,0.149283,0.05279 7,0.012274,0.068936,0.000837,-0.011281,-0.001385,0.043768,0.049204,0.001624,0.014687,-0.02438,-0.008945,0.001493,-0.002121,-0.008736,0.009755,0.004777,-0.00025,0.013227,0.001113,-0.00456,-0.027474,0.000838
I5665
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>U152>L2>DF103
-2127
Iberia_CA



I3484
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310
-2124
Iberia_CA



I8142
CF-P143
-2100
Iberia_CA



I8048
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P37>M423
-2100
Iberia_CA

Ajeje Brazorf
08-22-2021, 08:53 PM
Iberia_Central_CA:I6604,0.124067,0.17264,0.061848,-0.028747,0.115098,-0.017291,-0.004935,0.000692,0.078537,0.105697,-0.000812,0.013488,-0.032557,-0.01156,-0.012893,0.005967,0.028684,0.002027,-0.002765,0.007879,0.016845,0.000742,-0.021568,-0.040247,-0.00455
I6604
G-M201>L89>L156>P15>L1259>PF3146>PF3148
-1997
Iberia_CA



I7691
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51
-1950
Iberia_BA


Iberia_Central_BA:I3756,0.124067,0.149283,0.06675, 0.001615,0.07386,-0.013666,-0.002115,-0.006,0.033951,0.06761,-0.009743,0.014387,-0.032408,-0.024497,0.007193,0.01432,0.023991,-0.002027,0.001006,-0.006628,0.00836,-0.004575,-0.006532,-0.025425,-0.004191
I3756
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12_1>FGC78762>BY21074>BY21075>FT5780
-1910
Iberia_BA



I6608
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P37>M423>S2770>CTS5375>L161>FGC7113>S2639>L1498>A10029>Y31653
-1890
Iberia_CA


Iberia_Southeast_BA:I3494,0.127482,0.158423,0.0573 22,-0.017442,0.07109,-0.00753,-0.010105,0.004846,0.0452,0.073806,-0.004872,0.012439,-0.020218,-0.014588,0.00665,0.001724,-0.000261,0.009755,-0.002011,0.001,0.011355,-0.001607,-0.009244,-0.029281,0.001557
I3494
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12_1>BY3332
-1831
Iberia_BA



I12809
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269
-1825
Iberia_BA



I12855
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269
-1825
Iberia_BA


Iberia_Central_BA:I6618,0.119514,0.166547,0.061848 ,-0.001292,0.073244,-0.013666,-0.00611,0.000231,0.039473,0.060502,0.003573,0.0154 36,-0.020515,-0.015964,-0.003664,-0.002519,0.009127,0.000633,-0.000377,0.006628,0.00574,0.002844,-0.006409,-0.01699,0.003473
I6618
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312
-1785
Iberia_BA



pir001
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269
-1775
Iberia_IA



VAD002
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297
-1700
Iberia_BA


Iberia_North_BA:VAD004,0.120652,0.15436,0.052043,0 .006783,0.06155,-0.007809,0.004935,0.002308,0.030679,0.058133,-0.005034,0.007643,-0.034192,-0.011698,0.015201,-0.010475,0.002217,0.005701,0.009427,-0.01038,0.006738,0.006306,-0.005669,-0.012411,0.010418
VAD004
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151
-1700
Iberia_BA



I1312
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195
-1700
Iberia_BA


Iberia_Southeast_BA:I3997,0.122929,0.160454,0.0539 28,-0.002584,0.06832,-0.013108,-0.0047,0.005307,0.046836,0.072165,0.000812,0.01378 8,-0.032259,-0.032754,0.006786,0.020817,0.024121,-0.005574,-0.006662,-0.001251,0.003369,0.004946,-0.008381,-0.025184,0.000599
I3997
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312
-1692
Iberia_BA


Iberia_North_BA:VAD001,0.12862,0.147252,0.053174,0 .008398,0.070475,0,-0.011516,0.007384,0.033746,0.058862,-0.003085,0.011839,-0.020515,-0.027112,0.007465,0.014585,0.022296,-0.003547,-0.012318,0.003502,0.014474,0.010016,-0.007641,-0.017111,0.001317
VAD001
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12_1>Z225
-1691
Iberia_BA



COV20126
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P214>M223
-1682
Iberian_BA


Iberia_Central_BA:I6470,0.126344,0.148267,0.059962 ,0.002907,0.061858,-0.001394,-0.00799,0.001846,0.042541,0.049933,0.000974,0.0071 94,-0.022299,-0.017478,0.007329,0.003978,0.007953,0.001647,-0.000754,0.004502,0.016221,0,-0.013557,-0.023859,0.008502
I6470
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12_1>FT9510>FT10154
-1659
Iberia_BA



I3487
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151
-1653
Iberia_BA


Iberia_North_BA:VAD005,0.121791,0.157407,0.055437, 0.008721,0.072013,0.003347,-0.00188,-0.007154,0.03845,0.053942,-0.008931,0.005845,-0.015163,-0.018854,0.007057,0.013657,0.026729,0.006714,0.005 028,0.002626,0.006364,0.000742,-0.016392,-0.022172,-0.001796
VAD005
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310
-1640
Iberia_BA



TV32032
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151
-1630
Iberia_BA



I3488
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269
-1625
Iberia_BA



I3486
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269
-1600
Iberia_BA


Iberia_Northeast_BA:I4559,0.12862,0.14319,0.062979 ,0.006783,0.07386,-0.004462,0.006345,0.000231,0.047859,0.062689,0.000 325,0.008093,-0.021407,-0.020368,-0.000679,0.02254,0.015646,-0.005068,0.00176,0.013506,0.010731,0.004328,-0.010723,-0.016267,0.002395
I4559
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151
-1600
Iberia_BA



TV32032extra
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151
-1600
Iberia_BA



TV3831
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312
-1600
Iberia_BA


Iberia_Northeast_BA:I4563,0.126344,0.149283,0.0599 62,0.001615,0.072013,-0.00502,0.00235,-0.000923,0.035792,0.054124,-0.001786,0.010641,-0.027354,-0.023121,-0.001764,0.004243,0.002868,-0.000507,0.001885,0.00075,0.020214,-0.00136,-0.02391,-0.012532,-0.001557
I4563
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z198>Y29886>PH1909>YP5900
-1600
Iberia_BA



MonteGato104
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312
-1596
Iberia_BA


Iberia_Northeast_BA:I1836,0.129758,0.157407,0.0584 54,-0.00323,0.059396,-0.000558,-0.00141,-0.003231,0.039064,0.04811,0.00065,0.006145,-0.029435,-0.021332,0.002443,0.011535,0.008214,0.000127,-0.00176,-0.001251,0.008859,0.010016,-0.007765,-0.016629,-0.007544
I1836
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11
-1577
Iberia_BA



MG104
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312
-1535
Iberia_BA


Iberia_North_BA:I1840,0.127482,0.155376,0.059585,0 .003553,0.077245,-0.005299,-0.005405,0.003,0.034565,0.052484,-0.001624,0.014687,-0.020664,-0.018166,0.001764,0.018563,0.021122,0.002027,0.002 137,0.005628,0.010856,0.003586,-0.004067,-0.034463,0.010059
I1840
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12_1>BY3332>BY128991
-1525
Iberia_BA



I3492
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269
-1500
Iberia_BA



I2472
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310
-1478
Iberia_BA



esp005
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12_1>BY15963
-1450
Iberia_BA



I8571
P-PF5850>P295>M45
-1400
Iberia_BA


Iberia_Southeast_BA:I8570,0.132035,0.155376,0.0573 22,-0.004522,0.058472,0.000279,-0.0047,0.002308,0.044995,0.05376,-0.001624,0.005695,-0.020069,-0.010046,0.00665,0.001326,-0.007041,-0.006714,0.00088,0.008879,0.008111,-0.002226,0.000246,-0.010242,-0.001197
I8570
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151
-1400
Iberia_BA


Iberia_North_BA:I2470,0.120652,0.158423,0.05506,0. 000969,0.062781,-0.007251,-0.00141,0.004384,0.041927,0.057951,-0.002761,0.007793,-0.016353,-0.011147,0.001357,-0.006497,-0.01369,0.011655,-0.005405,-0.014507,0.010606,0.001484,-0.012325,-0.0241,-0.002036
I2470
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312
-1325
Iberia_BA


Iberia_Central_BA:I12209,0.120652,0.147252,0.05883 1,-0.002907,0.068013,-0.005578,-0.001645,0.000923,0.037837,0.049022,0.000812,0.011 24,-0.025124,-0.022983,0.009772,0.012198,0.024121,0.001394,-0.006788,0.006378,0.009733,-0.006677,-0.008011,-0.017231,0.010418
I12209
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27
-1300
Iberia_BA



I7687
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269
-950
Iberia_BA


Iberia_Menorca_LBA:I3315,0.122929,0.153345,0.05430 5,0.001615,0.062165,-0.002231,-0.00376,0.002308,0.035178,0.05212,-0.005521,0.013938,-0.026016,-0.016377,0.015065,0.008618,0.002738,-0.004814,-0.004274,-0.004502,-0.001497,0.002473,-0.003821,-0.016147,-0.000599
I3315
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27
-859
Menorca_LBA



I12641
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269
-649
Iberia_IA


Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1:I8209,0.12862,0.145221, 0.054682,0.013243,0.043393,0.009761,-0.001175,0.006,0.026384,0.033167,-0.006658,0.018434,-0.016501,-0.023121,0.011401,0.004508,0.005085,0.000127,0.003 897,-0.009254,0.001123,0.00507,0.002218,-0.009881,0.008263
I8209
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>U152>L2
-604
Iberia_Hel



I12561
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310
-600
Iberia_IA



I12640
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312
-600
Iberia_IA



I8211
R-M207>M173
-475
Iberia_Hel



I8344
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297
-450
Iberia_Hel



I12877
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>U152>L2>Z258>Z367>L20>Z1909>CTS7917>CTS8874>Y61652>Y64583
-450
Iberia_IA



I8212
R-M207>M173>M343
-425
Iberia_Hel



I8210
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269
-425
Iberia_Hel


Iberia_East_IA:I12410,0.132035,0.146236,0.060339,-0.004845,0.066782,-0.005857,0,0.001385,0.034155,0.050115,-0.001137,0.012589,-0.025867,-0.012248,0.008822,0.012596,0.022687,-0.001014,-0.00729,0.008879,0.006239,0.007172,-0.009983,-0.013737,-0.001916
I12410
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312
-425
Iberia_IA



I8341
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312
-425
Iberia_Hel


Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8208,0.1161,0.158423,-0.017348,-0.06783,0.026774,-0.032351,-0.00282,-0.001154,0.007158,0.04319,0.003573,0.015586,-0.017096,0.006468,-0.016965,-0.02559,-0.007693,-0.000253,0.00993,-0.017133,-0.003494,0.000866,0.005053,0.00241,-0.010538
I8208
J-M304>M172>M410>CTS7683>L26>PF5088>PF5125>Z2227>Z1846
-276
Iberia_Hel


Iberia_East_IA:I3323,0.121791,0.15436,0.05242,-0.002261,0.059703,-0.008646,-0.00564,0.003231,0.032928,0.05212,-0.006171,0.011839,-0.031962,-0.003578,0.004343,0.001591,0.011474,0.002154,-0.003142,-0.002376,0.002246,0.001607,-0.016392,-0.018195,0.002874
I3323
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151
-276
Iberia_IA


Iberia_East_IA:I3324,0.122929,0.131003,0.05506,0.0 15181,0.059703,0.007809,-0.002585,0.006692,0.019225,0.036083,-0.005846,0.004946,-0.026016,-0.00234,0.00285,0.022938,0.017602,-0.001267,0.01169,-0.008004,-0.00287,0.005564,-0.004067,-0.002048,-0.005269
I3324
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z274>Z209
-273
Iberia_IA


Iberia_North_IA:I3759,0.125205,0.140143,0.063356,0 .009044,0.062781,0.003347,-0.00235,0.006692,0.02168,0.034989,-0.006008,0.009292,-0.016204,-0.008945,0.0076,0.007425,0.003912,0.000633,0.00326 8,0.001251,0.012977,0.004081,-0.006039,-0.007109,-0.009221
I3759
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L460>P37>CTS595>M26
-272
Iberia_IA



I3496
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z198>ZS312>BY3214>CTS9993
-250
Iberia_IA



I3326
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297
-225
Iberia_IA


Iberia_East_IA:I3327,0.124067,0.146236,0.050157,-0.018411,0.042162,-0.001394,-0.00188,0.004154,0.031292,0.054671,-0.016239,0.013638,-0.011447,-0.03069,0.011401,0.025059,0.01708,0.005448,0.00402 2,0.004252,0.001996,-0.002349,-0.008381,-0.002651,0.002395
I3327
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151
-225
Iberia_IA



I8205
J-M304>M267>CTS12238>Z2217>FGC82833>Z1828
-200
Iberia_Hel


Iberia_East_IA:I3321,0.126344,0.157407,0.065619,0. 008075,0.062781,-0.013387,0.002115,0.007846,0.039064,0.045923,-0.000487,0.008692,-0.032111,-0.025873,0.011129,0.008221,0.007562,0.010642,0.007 919,-0.00988,0.013601,-0.008779,-0.002465,-0.023859,-0.007544
I3321
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312
-200
Iberia_IA


Iberia_East_IA:I3320,0.118376,0.152329,0.051288,0. 004522,0.064935,-0.003347,-0.014101,0.005538,0.030679,0.049022,-0.002273,0.014237,-0.017245,-0.017203,0.005293,0.001989,0.012386,-0.005068,-0.001006,-0.004377,0.006863,0.000124,0.001972,-0.012893,-0.000359
I3320
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12_1>Z225
-200
Iberia_IA


Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1:I8206,0.125205,0.127957 ,0.053928,0.048773,0.040931,0.013387,0.006815,0.00 6231,0.012067,0.014214,-0.001786,-0.005245,-0.015163,-0.018029,0.021444,0.011403,0.011735,0.010262,0.003 897,0.009129,0.009733,-0.000989,-0.004807,0.016629,0.006227
I8206
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27
-153
Iberia_Hel



Tenerife2
E-M96>CTS9083>P147>P177>M215>M35>V68>M78
35
Canarias_Guanche



Tenerife1
E-M96>CTS9083>P147>P177>M215>M35>Z827>L19>M81
35
Canarias_Guanche



I10865
L-M20
150
Iberia_Roman



I8216
J-M304>M267>CTS12238>Z2217>L620
155
Iberia_Roman



I8202
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151
200
Iberia_Roman


Iberia_Southeast_c.3-4CE:I4054,0.078538,0.142174,0.008674,-0.032946,0.032929,-0.014781,-0.003995,0.014769,0.028838,0.034807,-0.005846,0.002997,-0.002676,-0.017753,0.004479,0.013922,0.024121,-0.008995,-0.007793,-0.006503,-0.000125,0.000618,0.006409,0.001807,-0.003113
I4054
J-M304>M172>M410>CTS7683>L26>PF5088>PF5125>Z2227>Z1846>M67>Z1847
300
Iberia_Roman



I4055
T-M184>L490
300
Iberia_Roman



Gomera1
E-M96>CTS9083>P147>P177>M215>M35>V68>M78
332
Canarias_Guanche



Gomera2
E-M96>CTS9083>P147>P177>M215>M35>Z827>L19>M81
332
Canarias_Guanche



I6491
R-M207
350
Iberia_Roman



I6492
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>Z290>L21
350
Iberia_Roman


Iberia_Southeast_c.3-4CE:I3983,0.075123,0.148267,0.011314,-0.039729,0.035391,-0.021753,-0.001175,0.003692,0.03027,0.032985,-0.001786,0.003747,-0.009366,-0.017616,0.008143,0.008618,0.011474,-0.00038,-0.014078,0.003377,0.002745,-0.005812,0.008504,0.000843,-0.003832
I3983
J-M304>M172>M410>CTS7683>L26>PF5088>PF5125>Z2227>Z1846>M67>Z1847
400
Iberia_Roman


Iberia_Southeast_c.5-8CE:I3576,0.080814,0.147252,0.023004,-0.036499,0.030467,-0.019243,-0.00423,0.006923,0.040496,0.032802,-0.001949,0.005095,-0.006244,-0.000275,0.011536,-0.0118,-0.001956,0.000127,-0.010936,0.002001,0.002496,-0.02065,0.004683,-0.01446,0.003233
I3576
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12_1>BY3332>PH4023>PH3162
482
Iberia_EMA


Iberia_Southeast_c.5-8CE:I3981,0.080814,0.150298,0.021119,-0.030685,0.035391,-0.01004,-0.010575,0.007154,0.031701,0.035354,-0.000974,0.007793,-0.000595,-0.024497,0.006107,0.009281,0.013169,0.001394,-0.005028,0.00025,-0.003119,-0.008779,0.00456,-0.004699,0.003473
I3981
E-M96>CTS9083>P147>P177>M215>M35>V68>M78>PF2179>Z1902>V264>V65>PF2159>Z1231
500
Iberia_EMA



I3579
E-M96>CTS9083>P147>P177>M215>M35>V68>M78>PF2179>Z1919
500
Iberia_EMA



I3583
E-M96>CTS9083>P147>P177>M215>M35>V68>M78>PF2179>Z1919>L618
500
Iberia_EMA


Iberia_Southeast_c.5-8CE:I3575,0.062603,0.138112,0.014331,-0.0323,0.036007,0.00251,-0.0094,-0.002077,0.029042,0.034807,0.004384,0.005245,0.009 068,-0.012937,0.0038,-0.013524,-0.013169,0.003041,-0.029288,-0.011005,-0.00861,-0.007172,0.011092,-0.007953,0
I3575
I-L758>M170>P215>CTS2257>L596>SK1271>BY421
500
Iberia_EMA


Iberia_Southeast_c.5-8CE:I3582,0.075123,0.142174,0.023381,-0.012597,0.037853,-0.003347,-0.00611,0.006461,0.033951,0.04483,-0.006496,0.006294,-0.007433,-0.015964,-0.0019,-0.008884,0.001304,-0.001394,-0.011313,0.006878,-0.008235,-0.011376,0.00419,-0.014339,0.000479
I3582
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z274>Z209>FGC83504>Z295>Z270>Z211
500
Iberia_EMA



I3584
J-M304>M172>M410>CTS7683
550
Iberia_EMA



Hierro2
E-M96>CTS9083>P147>P177>M215>M35>V68>M78
595
Canarias_Guanche



Hierro1
E-M96>CTS9083>P147>P177>M215>M35>Z827>L19>M81
595
Canarias_Guanche


Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL:I12031,0.126344,0.133034 ,0.039598,0.017119,0.03416,0.007809,0.009635,0.009 461,0.002659,0.004738,-0.006658,-0.002548,-0.009068,-0.003165,0.002307,-0.003315,0.004303,0.003547,-0.008296,0.006128,-0.000499,0.001237,-0.002711,0.00482,-0.008263
I12031
E-M96>CTS9083>P147>P177>M215>M35>V68>M78>PF2179>Z1919>L618>V13>CTS8814>CTS5856>Z16663>Z21371>BY28635
600
Iberia_Roman



I12029
E-M96>CTS9083>P147>P177>M215>M35>V68>M78>PF2179>Z1919>L618>V13>CTS8814>CTS5856>Z16663>Z21371>BY28635
600
Iberia_Roman



B100
I-L758>M170
600
Iberia_EMA



B11
I-L758>M170
600
Iberia_EMA



B61
I-L758>M170
600
Iberia_EMA



B84
I-L758>M170
600
Iberia_EMA



I12033
I-L758>M170>Z2699>M253
600
Iberia_Roman


Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL:I12162,0.114961,0.126941 ,0.046763,0.030685,0.043085,0.011713,0.006815,0.00 0923,0.002863,0.006196,-0.010393,0.007343,-0.000297,-0.011147,0.005157,-0.005701,0.001173,0.003801,0.005656,0.002501,0.019 965,0.000371,-0.000616,0.014821,-0.002634
I12162
J-M304>M172>M410>CTS7683>L26>PF5088>PF5160>L24>Z393>L25>Z438>CTS1192>L70>PF5430>Z435
600
Iberia_Roman



B25
R-M207>M173
600
Iberia_EMA



B55
R-M207>M173
600
Iberia_EMA



B12
R-M207>M173>M343
600
Iberia_EMA



B13
R-M207>M173>M343
600
Iberia_EMA



B18
R-M207>M173>M343
600
Iberia_EMA



B19
R-M207>M173>M343
600
Iberia_EMA



B29-42 (individual 4)
R-M207>M173>M343
600
Iberia_EMA



B29-42 (individual 5)
R-M207>M173>M343
600
Iberia_EMA



B44
R-M207>M173>M343
600
Iberia_EMA



B56
R-M207>M173>M343
600
Iberia_EMA



B62
R-M207>M173>M343
600
Iberia_EMA



B63
R-M207>M173>M343
600
Iberia_EMA



B77
R-M207>M173>M343
600
Iberia_EMA



B78
R-M207>M173>M343
600
Iberia_EMA



B86
R-M207>M173>M343
600
Iberia_EMA



B87
R-M207>M173>M343
600
Iberia_EMA



B90
R-M207>M173>M343
600
Iberia_EMA



B91
R-M207>M173>M343
600
Iberia_EMA



B94
R-M207>M173>M343
600
Iberia_EMA



B96
R-M207>M173>M343
600
Iberia_EMA


Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL:I12032,0.142279,0.145221 ,0.04978,0.030039,0.03139,0.010877,-0.00047,0.013153,0.011862,0.011116,-0.006333,0.013038,-0.01888,-0.00234,0.004886,0.008221,0.004563,0.012162,0.0022 63,0.013006,0.010232,-0.000618,-0.001356,-0.002651,0.000838
I12032
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51
600
Iberia_Roman



B67
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z274>Z209>FGC83504>Z295>Z270>Z211>Z297>CTS2608>Z278>Z697>Z214>Z279>CTS8087>M153
600
Iberia_EMA



B68
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z274>Z209>FGC83504>Z295>Z270>Z211>Z297>CTS2608>Z278>Z697>Z214>Z279>CTS8087>M153
600
Iberia_EMA


Canary_Islands_Guanche:gun012,-0.055773,0.138112,-0.003017,-0.078489,0.023081,-0.037929,-0.029141,0.006,0.080173,0.022597,0.007957,-0.008243,0.01115,-0.025873,0.028094,-0.012994,0.012386,-0.020524,-0.047011,0.008129,-0.009858,-0.04266,0.022308,-0.00253,0.011616
gun012
E-M96>CTS9083>P147>P177>M215>M35>Z827>L19>M81>Z1200>PF2548>PF2477>PF2546>Z5009>FT76699
626
Canarias_Guanche



I3775
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389
650
Iberia_EMA



I3778
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269
650
Iberia_EMA



I3866
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269
650
Iberia_EMA



I8343
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269
663
Iberia_Roman_Late


Iberia_Southeast_c.5-8CE:I3585,0.099026,0.146236,0.033187,-0.012597,0.037238,-0.010877,-0.005875,0.003,0.031088,0.033896,-0.005684,0.007643,-0.008771,-0.016377,0.005022,0.002254,0.002608,0.004181,-0.003142,0.004002,0.001996,-0.005688,0.00912,-0.009881,-0.001916
I3585
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>BY25512
755
Iberia_EMA



I7675
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151
797
Iberia_EMA



I7672
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z198>ZS312>Z267>SRY2627>Z200>Z202
797
Iberia_EMA


Canary_Islands_Guanche:gun011,-0.044391,0.131003,-0.00528,-0.066861,0.030775,-0.03765,-0.034077,0.008538,0.07281,0.027335,0.006658,-0.006894,0.02438,-0.009634,0.024701,-0.018297,-0.007823,-0.016976,-0.052416,0.008129,-0.019091,-0.045752,0.023047,-0.007832,0.013771
gun011
E-M96>CTS9083>P147>P177>M215>M35>Z827>L19>M81>Z1200>PF2548>PF2477>PF2546
813
Canarias_Guanche



SerosFemur 1
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269
838
Iberia_EMA



GranCanaria24
E-M96>CTS9083>P147>M132
870
Canarias_Guanche



GranCanaria6
E-M96>CTS9083>P147>P177>M215>M35>V68>M78
870
Canarias_Guanche



GranCanaria7
E-M96>CTS9083>P147>P177>M215>M35>V68>M78
870
Canarias_Guanche



GranCanaria8
E-M96>CTS9083>P147>P177>M215>M35>V68>M78
870
Canarias_Guanche



GranCanaria9
E-M96>CTS9083>P147>P177>M215>M35>V68>M78
870
Canarias_Guanche



GranCanaria1
E-M96>CTS9083>P147>P177>M215>M35>Z827>L19>M81
870
Canarias_Guanche



GranCanaria2
E-M96>CTS9083>P147>P177>M215>M35>Z827>L19>M81
870
Canarias_Guanche



GranCanaria3
E-M96>CTS9083>P147>P177>M215>M35>Z827>L19>M81
870
Canarias_Guanche



GranCanaria4
E-M96>CTS9083>P147>P177>M215>M35>Z827>L19>M81
870
Canarias_Guanche



GranCanaria5
E-M96>CTS9083>P147>P177>M215>M35>Z827>L19>M81
870
Canarias_Guanche



GranCanaria21
I-L758>M170
870
Canarias_Guanche



GranCanaria22
I-L758>M170
870
Canarias_Guanche



GranCanaria10
J-M304>M267
870
Canarias_Guanche



GranCanaria11
J-M304>M267
870
Canarias_Guanche



GranCanaria12
J-M304>M267
870
Canarias_Guanche



GranCanaria13
J-M304>M267
870
Canarias_Guanche



GranCanaria14
J-M304>M267
870
Canarias_Guanche



GranCanaria15
K-M9
870
Canarias_Guanche



GranCanaria16
K-M9
870
Canarias_Guanche



GranCanaria17
K-M9
870
Canarias_Guanche



GranCanaria23
P-PF5850>P295
870
Canarias_Guanche



GranCanaria18
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269
870
Canarias_Guanche



GranCanaria19
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269
870
Canarias_Guanche



GranCanaria20
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269
870
Canarias_Guanche



SerosFemur 3
R-M207>M173>M343
890,5
Iberia_EMA


Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE:I10895,0.112685,0.144205,0.044123,-0.005168,0.040315,-0.00753,0.004465,0.000692,0.025156,0.028976,0.0029 23,0.004496,-0.015312,-0.016102,0.0038,-0.006364,-0.005085,-0.00228,-0.004274,-0.001626,0.004742,0.001113,0.002465,-0.001205,-0.003353
I10895
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>U106>Z2265>BY30097>Z381>Z156>Z306>Z307>Z304>FGC29253>DF98>S1911
912
Iberia_MA



I7427
E-M96>CTS9083>P147>P177>V38>M2>M4901>M180
950
Iberia_Muslim

Ajeje Brazorf
08-22-2021, 08:54 PM
I7500
E-M96>CTS9083>P147>P177>M215>M35>Z827>L19>M81>Z1200
1000
Iberia_Muslim



I10854
BT-M42
1042
Iberia_MA


Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE:I7498,0.093335,0.136081,0.024136,-0.014858,0.040931,-0.007809,-0.006815,0.002077,0.02577,0.029704,-0.001461,-0.003597,-0.012487,-0.003303,0.005836,-0.007823,-0.001565,-0.005954,-0.005405,0.001251,-0.007112,-0.013973,0.002465,-0.010483,0.004311
I7498
E-M96>CTS9083>P147>P177>M215>M35>V68>M78>PF2179>Z1919>L618>V13>CTS8814>CTS5856
1050
Iberia_Muslim


Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE:I10853,0.112685,0.155376,0.017725,-0.002261,0.025851,0.002231,-0.002585,0.004615,0.029656,0.036447,-0.000974,0.003447,-0.012636,-0.013762,-0.0076,-0.007558,0.00352,-0.006081,-0.00264,-0.006628,0.007736,0.000742,-0.001109,0.006748,0.005149
I10853
E-M96>CTS9083>P147>P177>M215>M35>V68>M78>PF2179>Z1919>L618>V13>CTS8814>CTS5856
1074
Iberia_MA


Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE:I12514,0.09675,0.142174,0.032432,-0.011951,0.044624,-0.004183,-0.004935,0.002538,0.026588,0.031527,0,-0.001798,-0.0055,-0.017065,0.004614,-0.000265,-0.008345,-0.008235,-0.014958,-0.001501,0.002371,-0.007914,0.007272,-0.004217,0.003233
I12514
J-M304>M172>M410>CTS7683>L26>PF5088>PF5125>Z2227>Z1846>S23154>M319>Z39601
1096
Iberia_Muslim


Canary_Islands_Guanche:gun002,-0.050082,0.122879,-0.008297,-0.073321,0.022773,-0.04016,-0.029376,0.015922,0.07097,0.043919,0.009906,-0.007194,0.023934,-0.021744,0.020765,-0.009414,0.001956,-0.02065,-0.047011,0.010255,-0.008235,-0.045628,0.031551,0.007712,0.009819
gun002
E-M96>CTS9083>P147>P177>M215>M35>Z827>L19>M81
1099
Canarias_Guanche



I12646
CT-M168
1200
Iberia_Muslim



I12650
CT-M168
1200
Iberia_Muslim


Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE:I7457,0.068294,0.147252,0.02489,-0.024225,0.035391,-0.017849,-0.012691,0.005307,0.03436,0.033167,0.003897,0.0071 94,-0.007582,-0.010459,0.006107,-0.006099,0.009127,0,-0.013952,-0.003627,-0.007861,-0.025843,0.006532,-0.001446,-0.002275
I7457
E-M96>CTS9083>P147>P177>M215>M35>V68>M78>PF2179>Z1919>L618>V13>CTS8814>CTS5856>BY3880>FGC44169>S7461>BY5022
1200
Iberia_Muslim



I12649
E-M96>CTS9083>P147>P177>M215>M35>Z827>L19>M81>Z1200
1200
Iberia_Muslim


Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE:I12644,0.080814,0.140143,0.028661,-0.024871,0.038161,-0.01506,-0.003055,-0.006692,0.036201,0.027153,-0.005196,0.006894,-0.006244,-0.008257,0.012622,0.007425,0.013951,-0.016596,-0.014455,0.001376,-0.004866,-0.006059,0.012078,-0.00241,0.003233
I12644
E-M96>CTS9083>P147>P177>M215>M35>Z827>L19>M81>Z1200>PF2548>PF2477>PF2546
1200
Iberia_Muslim


Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE:I12515,0.101303,0.146236,0.026398,-0.015827,0.034468,-0.000837,-0.00893,0.004154,0.025565,0.025331,0.002436,0.0089 92,-0.011298,-0.01101,0.003257,-0.00716,-0.017863,-0.012035,-0.006662,0.006378,0.006863,0.004081,0.00456,-0.003976,-0.000718
I12515
J-M304>M172>M410>CTS7683>L26>PF5088>PF5125>Z2227>Z1846>S23154>M319>Z39601
1200
Iberia_Muslim



I12648
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269
1200
Iberia_Muslim



I8145
J-M304
1400
Iberia_Muslim



I7426
CT-M168
1550
Iberia_Muslim



I3807
E-M96>CTS9083>P147>P177>M215>M35>Z827>L19
1550
Iberia_Muslim



I7423
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151
1550
Iberia_Muslim



I3809
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>Z290>L21
1550
Iberia_Muslim

alejandromb92
08-22-2021, 09:05 PM
¡Es un resultado muy importante porque eso significa que el y hg R1b-M269 estaba en Iberia 1000 años antes de la llegada de los R1b indoeuropeos!

Si tienes la referencia, te agradecería mucho que me la enviaras para tener algún trabajo que citar.

Te los doy yo rapidamente:

CHA002
mtDNA: K>K1>K1a>K1a2>K1a2a
YDNA: R-M207>M173>M343>L754>PF6323>V88>PF6287>FGC21056>FGC21027
Edad: 5302-5061 calBCE (6227±28 BP, MAMS-29127)
Ubicacion: Cueva de Chaves
Iberia_EN

I0410
mtDNA: T>T2>T2c>T2c1>T2c1-T146C!>T2c1d
YDNA: R-M207>M173>M343>L754>PF6323>V88>PF6287>FGC21056>FGC21027
Edad: 5298-5057 calBCE (6217±25 BP, MAMS-16161)
Ubicacion: Els Trocs
Iberia_EN

I0411
mtDNA: K>K1>K1a>K1a2>K1a2a
YDNA: R-M207>M173>M343>L754>PF6323>V88>PF6287>FGC21056>FGC21027
Edad: 5298-5059 calBCE (6218±24 BP, MAMS-16162)
Ubicacion: Els Trocs
Iberia_EN

alejandromb92
08-22-2021, 09:18 PM
Que lo anterior no sorprenda, Villabruna 1 era R1b1a y es mas viejo que Jesucristo. Habian muchos WHG que tenian R1b, es por eso que te vas a encontrar muchas muestras de agricultores europeos con R1b. La novedad del R1b en Europa es que el tenemos el 99.99% de los europeos y euroamericanos es que este es de la rama M269, que seria la estrictamente EHG que paso a ser parte de los esteparios, y estos lo extendieron ridiculamente.

Shadogowah
08-22-2021, 09:49 PM
¡Es un resultado muy importante porque eso significa que el y hg R1b-M269 estaba en Iberia 1000 años antes de la llegada de los R1b indoeuropeos!

Si tienes la referencia, te agradecería mucho que me la enviaras para tener algún trabajo que citar.

Como bien te dice Alejandro los V88 son una rama muy vieja de R1b (una especie de tíos abuelos primigenios de los indoeuropeos) y de hecho creo recordar que donde son dominantes es en África. No tengo ni puñetera idea de cómo llegaron allí pero si sé que el clado del cual todos descienden es del paleolítico y hay muchos miles de años de margen para que el tío Paco y su familia tirasen para el centro de África mientras el resto de los primos se quedaron por Oriente Medio y comenzaron a extenderse por Eurasia conforme hacía menos fresquito.

alejandromb92
08-23-2021, 06:07 AM
Como bien te dice Alejandro los V88 son una rama muy vieja de R1b (una especie de tíos abuelos primigenios de los indoeuropeos) y de hecho creo recordar que donde son dominantes es en África. No tengo ni puñetera idea de cómo llegaron allí pero si sé que el clado del cual todos descienden es del paleolítico y hay muchos miles de años de margen para que el tío Paco y su familia tirasen para el centro de África mientras el resto de los primos se quedaron por Oriente Medio y comenzaron a extenderse por Eurasia conforme hacía menos fresquito.

Yo tampoco tengo claro como llego el R-V88 al Centro de Africa, pero lo que si esta claro que la frecuencia alta que tienen ahi es debido a un bottleneck. El clado FGC21027 que tienen los 3 hombres del Neolitico que postee anteriormente, segun los datos de FTDNA, es muy muy comun en Arabia Saudi, Kuwait y Sudan, con eso llego a la conclusion de que en algun momento sucedio un coletazo hacia el Este de agricultores europeos con este haplogrupo (ya hay antecedentes con I2) y de una u otra manera, los descendientes de esas personas expandieran desde el Medio Oriente las lenguas chadicas hasta el Centro de Africa. No se me ocurre otra manera de como haya sido, a nadie hasta ahora, pero lo seguro seguro, es que los indo-europeos aqui no tienen nada que ver, nisiquiera los EHG.

castrogonzalo
08-23-2021, 06:46 AM
No sé si el haplogrupo que mencioné es el mismo del que hablas (no soy experto en haplogrupos). Pero estos son todos los haplogrupos paternos de las muestras ibéricas, en orden ascendente de más antiguo a más reciente.


Gracias por los datos, Ajeje.

Yo tampoco soy experto en haplogrupos! Lo que parece es que el que yo publiqué tiene un formato de Yfull (R1b1a2-M269) y en las tablas de Global25 que publicas usan un formato FTDNA (R-M207>M173). Si no estoy equivocado, con esa información puede ser tanto R-M207>M173>M343>L754>PF6323>V88 (previo al III milenio BC), como R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269 (que supuestamente entró en la península a mediados del III milenio BC). Si se confirmara que éste es el haplogrupo (R1b-M269), significaría que existía previo a la llegada de los jinetes R1b. Habrá que esperar esa confirmación ...

castrogonzalo
08-23-2021, 06:55 AM
Te los doy yo rapidamente:

CHA002
mtDNA: K>K1>K1a>K1a2>K1a2a
YDNA: R-M207>M173>M343>L754>PF6323>V88>PF6287>FGC21056>FGC21027
Edad: 5302-5061 calBCE (6227±28 BP, MAMS-29127)
Ubicacion: Cueva de Chaves
Iberia_EN

I0410
mtDNA: T>T2>T2c>T2c1>T2c1-T146C!>T2c1d
YDNA: R-M207>M173>M343>L754>PF6323>V88>PF6287>FGC21056>FGC21027
Edad: 5298-5057 calBCE (6217±25 BP, MAMS-16161)
Ubicacion: Els Trocs
Iberia_EN

I0411
mtDNA: K>K1>K1a>K1a2>K1a2a
YDNA: R-M207>M173>M343>L754>PF6323>V88>PF6287>FGC21056>FGC21027
Edad: 5298-5059 calBCE (6218±24 BP, MAMS-16162)
Ubicacion: Els Trocs
Iberia_EN


Estos son R1b-V88 (que como bien dices es muy viejo en la península y está asociado a una migración hacia África), pero lo que reclamaba Genetiker era que ATP3 tenía R1b1a2-M269 (que está asociado a los jinetes R1b). Yo estoy interesado en la confirmación de ese dato a través de una publicación porque con los datos que manejamos no podemos concluir nada.

Shadogowah
08-23-2021, 06:55 AM
Gracias por los datos, Ajeje.

Yo tampoco soy experto en haplogrupos! Lo que parece es que el que yo publiqué tiene un formato de Yfull (R1b1a2-M269) y en las tablas de Global25 que publicas usan un formato FTDNA (R-M207>M173). Si no estoy equivocado, con esa información puede ser tanto R-M207>M173>M343>L754>PF6323>V88 (previo al III milenio BC), como R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269 (que supuestamente entró en la península a mediados del III milenio BC). Si se confirmara que éste es el haplogrupo (R1b-M269), significaría que existía previo a la llegada de los jinetes R1b. Habrá que esperar esa confirmación ...

Yo diría que prácticamente todas las papeletas son para que toque V88. Ya hay otros casos en Europa.

Y que no es novedad. Antes de que tuviéramos una imagen más nítida del árbol filogenético, estos R1b arcaicos eran esgrimidos como prueba por los partidarios del origen vasco-ibérico del tinglado campaniforme.

Hoy sabemos que son una rama distinta mucho más antigua.

alejandromb92
08-23-2021, 07:49 AM
Estos son R1b-V88 (que como bien dices es muy viejo en la península y está asociado a una migración hacia África), pero lo que reclamaba Genetiker era que ATP3 tenía R1b1a2-M269 (que está asociado a los jinetes R1b). Yo estoy interesado en la confirmación de ese dato a través de una publicación porque con los datos que manejamos no podemos concluir nada.

Lo que he podido leer del ATP3 es que supuestamente da un call en una variante equivalente al M269, pero que no es del todo fiable. Sinceramente no me extrañaria, el mismo Villabruna 1 pudo haber sido M269, lo que pasa es que no llegaron tan lejos, era una muestra muy antigua.

castrogonzalo
08-26-2021, 06:51 PM
Me parece interesante (25-Aug-2021, calentito, calentito, me lo quitan de las manos oiga):

https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/7/35/eabi6941

Dice:
"Unresolved questions concern the genetic and geographic origins of CW and Bell Beaker (BB. ) individuals, their relationship to one another and to Yamnaya individuals, as well as the origin of Early Bronze Age (EBA) Únětice individuals. Although it has been proposed that CW formed from a male-biased westward migration of genetically Yamnaya-like people (23, 41–44), no overlap in Y-chromosomal lineages (with the exception of a few nondiagnostic I2) has been found between the predominantly R1a-carrying CW and mainly R1b-Z2103–carrying Yamnaya males. Steppe ancestry is also present in BB individuals (5); however, they predominantly carry R1b-P312, a Y-lineage not yet found among CW or Yamnaya males."

castrogonzalo
08-27-2021, 05:50 AM
Me parece interesante (25-Aug-2021, calentito, calentito, me lo quitan de las manos oiga):

https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/7/35/eabi6941

Dice:
"Unresolved questions concern the genetic and geographic origins of CW and Bell Beaker (BB. ) individuals, their relationship to one another and to Yamnaya individuals, as well as the origin of Early Bronze Age (EBA) Únětice individuals. Although it has been proposed that CW formed from a male-biased westward migration of genetically Yamnaya-like people (23, 41–44), no overlap in Y-chromosomal lineages (with the exception of a few nondiagnostic I2) has been found between the predominantly R1a-carrying CW and mainly R1b-Z2103–carrying Yamnaya males. Steppe ancestry is also present in BB individuals (5); however, they predominantly carry R1b-P312, a Y-lineage not yet found among CW or Yamnaya males."

De lo que he leído en Eupedia, recojo algunas ideas de [email protected] [email protected] que me parece que algo sabrá de esto:

1. El CW (Coreded Ware) no es arqueológicamente un grupo "Yamnaya Indoeuropeo". Tenían armas de piedra con poco cobre y ningún bronce, carros tirados por bueyes pero no eran jinetes de caballos, tomaron prestados los brazales y tenían una cerámica "horrible" (sic.)
2. CW no desciende de Yamnaya.
3. CW no eran los indoeuropeos, los Yamnaya eran los indoeuropeos.
4. R1a llegó más tarde desde el noreste.

Yo estoy escribiendo de oido pero seguramente habrá más novedades porque el hilo está abierto.

PS. El/la [email protected] [email protected] no es nadie que haya sido baneado de este foro.

castrogonzalo
08-28-2021, 07:54 AM
De lo que he leído en Eupedia, recojo algunas ideas de [email protected] [email protected] que me parece que algo sabrá de esto:

1. El CW (Coreded Ware) no es arqueológicamente un grupo "Yamnaya Indoeuropeo". Tenían armas de piedra con poco cobre y ningún bronce, carros tirados por bueyes pero no eran jinetes de caballos, tomaron prestados los brazales y tenían una cerámica "horrible" (sic.)
2. CW no desciende de Yamnaya.
3. CW no eran los indoeuropeos, los Yamnaya eran los indoeuropeos.
4. R1a llegó más tarde desde el noreste.

Yo estoy escribiendo de oido pero seguramente habrá más novedades porque el hilo está abierto.



Otra observación: el paper sugiere que Bohemia no fue el lugar de origen de R1b-L51 sino algún punto entre Bohemia y las islas Británicas. Parece que descarta a R1b-L51 como estepeño.

castrogonzalo
08-28-2021, 08:18 PM
Otra observación: el paper sugiere que Bohemia no fue el lugar de origen de R1b-L51 sino algún punto entre Bohemia y las islas Británicas. Parece que descarta a R1b-L51 como estepeño.

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com

- despite being closely related, the Corded Ware and Yamnaya peoples were highly adapted to very different ecological zones - temperate forests and arid steppes, respectively - and this is surely not something that happened within a few years and probably not even within a couple of generations

- both the Corded Ware and Yamnaya populations expanded widely and rapidly at around the same time, but never got in each others way, probably because they occupied very different ecological niches

- despite sharing the R1b Y-chromosome haplogroup, their paternal origins were quite different, with Corded Ware males rich in R1a-M417 and R1b-L51 and Yamnaya males rich in R1b-Z2103 and I2a-L699

castrogonzalo
09-10-2021, 07:14 PM
Si puede ayudar al hilo, todas estas son muestras de Global25 de la Península Ibérica datadas entre el 4000 y el 1000 a.C:



Al final he usado la primera tabla en un gráfico. Gracias. Aunque no sé si tiene sentido lo que he hecho, a ver si mokordo me puede orientar ...


Aquí están las hojas de cálculo ...

mokordo, para la figura he usado la tabla de Ajeje y tomé la primera columna como eje x, y la segunda columna como eje y. Si quisiera hacer un PCA, ¿se podría con esta tabla? ¿cómo tendría que hacerlo?

46514

mokordo
09-11-2021, 12:02 PM
Al final he usado la primera tabla en un gráfico. Gracias. Aunque no sé si tiene sentido lo que he hecho, a ver si mokordo me puede orientar ...



mokordo, para la figura he usado la tabla de Ajeje y tomé la primera columna como eje x, y la segunda columna como eje y. Si quisiera hacer un PCA, ¿se podría con esta tabla? ¿cómo tendría que hacerlo?

46514

Eso es ya un PCA (muy básico), aunque para el G25 tienes una herramienta más adecuada para ello, y más sencilla de usar y de interpretar.

https://https://vahaduo.github.io/g25views/#Europe1

castrogonzalo
09-11-2021, 12:19 PM
Eso es ya un PCA (muy básico), aunque para el G25 tienes una herramienta más adecuada para ello, y más sencilla de usar y de interpretar.

https://https://vahaduo.github.io/g25views/#Europe1

Te acabo de enviar un PM, si no lo has visto puedes ignorarlo.

Me subes la moral con lo del PCA (voy a hacer como que no leí lo de "muy básico"). Lo hice por algunos posts tuyos que leí pero quería que me lo aseguraras. Como internamente yo me creía que era un PCA, lo primero que hice fue eliminar al outlier africano y después hice un gráfico con muestras divididas por períodos de 200 años:

46535

Se nota que con el tiempo, la componente 2 baja de valor. Por ahí voy.

mokordo
09-11-2021, 12:22 PM
Al final he usado la primera tabla en un gráfico. Gracias. Aunque no sé si tiene sentido lo que he hecho, a ver si mokordo me puede orientar ...



mokordo, para la figura he usado la tabla de Ajeje y tomé la primera columna como eje x, y la segunda columna como eje y. Si quisiera hacer un PCA, ¿se podría con esta tabla? ¿cómo tendría que hacerlo?


Los samples individuales Ibéricos "antiguos" que hay ahora mismo en el G25 son éstos:


Bell_Beaker_Iberia_C:I6542,0.133173,0.157407,0.061 094,-0.022933,0.093248,-0.00251,0.00141,0.008538,0.063402,0.090025,-0.002273,0.012589,-0.030178,-0.018854,-0.013436,0.003315,0.028945,0.004941,-0.000754,0.013757,0.015722,-0.003586,-0.013188,-0.053984,-0.011376
Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I0459,0.127482,0.166547,0.05958 5,-0.028424,0.082477,-0.016176,-0.00517,0.001154,0.073833,0.078726,-0.003897,0.015137,-0.027948,-0.016377,-0.003664,0.007292,0.008345,0.002914,-0.004902,-0.003126,0.009358,0.003091,-0.013188,-0.046633,0.005628
Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I0460,0.12862,0.156392,0.064111 ,-0.021318,0.08894,-0.015897,-0.00564,0.001385,0.06872,0.097314,-0.004872,0.017984,-0.025124,-0.026011,0.006243,-0.00358,0.00352,0.007095,0.003268,-0.009004,0.016221,-0.002968,-0.020952,-0.04832,0.003832
Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I0461,0.1161,0.140143,0.051288, 0.008721,0.070475,-0.00753,-0.00846,0.007846,0.041518,0.046106,-0.010555,0.010341,-0.021853,-0.021744,0.012351,0.019358,0.016428,0.007981,-0.005154,0.005628,0.009358,0,-0.011955,-0.013375,-0.002874
Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I0826,0.132035,0.176702,0.06222 5,-0.029393,0.090171,-0.016455,-0.021386,0.006461,0.041927,0.098407,-0.009743,0.006444,-0.043112,-0.010459,-0.001221,-0.011668,0.021905,-0.007981,0.00817,-0.013006,0.005366,-0.015209,-0.006039,-0.040849,0.002634
Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I0840,0.122929,0.157407,0.05204 3,-0.030685,0.081861,-0.020638,-0.014336,-0.005769,0.068106,0.090571,-0.003248,0.016186,-0.033895,-0.022708,-0.001221,0.000265,0.014864,-0.014189,0.001885,-0.00025,0.012104,0.00371,-0.00493,-0.038198,0.003353
Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I1970,0.125205,0.173656,0.06750 5,-0.0323,0.079399,-0.024263,-0.00611,0.004384,0.054403,0.113533,-0.009094,0.018883,-0.041922,-0.030965,0.000271,0.010209,0.021905,-0.001014,0.009176,0.00988,0.013351,-0.00643,-0.017378,-0.045549,0.000838
Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I4229,0.120652,0.160454,0.04789 4,-0.023902,0.077553,-0.013387,-0.008695,0.005077,0.053176,0.072894,-0.003897,0.012439,-0.037611,-0.015689,-0.004072,-0.001326,0.003129,0.005574,0.000628,-0.004252,0.018218,-0.000495,-0.017624,-0.025666,-0.000239
Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I4247,0.12862,0.178733,0.034695 ,-0.030685,0.080323,-0.021753,-0.012926,0.01223,0.065652,0.101141,-0.000162,0.024578,-0.021556,-0.022845,-0.009093,0.018695,0.023339,-0.004434,0.001257,-0.007879,0.010731,0.006677,-0.019227,-0.035186,0.001437
Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I5665,0.126344,0.149283,0.05279 7,0.012274,0.068936,0.000837,-0.011281,-0.001385,0.043768,0.049204,0.001624,0.014687,-0.02438,-0.008945,0.001493,-0.002121,-0.008736,0.009755,0.004777,-0.00025,0.013227,0.001113,-0.00456,-0.027474,0.000838
Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I6472,0.135449,0.144205,0.07655 5,0.015181,0.048009,-0.009482,-0.015276,0.000923,0.035383,0.049933,0.001624,0.016 935,-0.029286,-0.009221,0.012758,-0.016971,0.004955,-0.003674,-0.007039,-0.002501,0.004866,0.010263,-0.006902,-0.020244,0.004431
Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I6539,0.124067,0.149283,0.05732 2,-0.003553,0.070167,-0.001394,-0.01081,0.003692,0.030679,0.041914,0.00341,0.00524 5,-0.023637,-0.026286,0.002307,0.009414,0.024121,-0.004941,0.00264,-0.006503,0.002496,0.00371,-0.001849,-0.016147,0.003233
Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I6584,0.124067,0.175687,0.06033 9,-0.02584,0.080015,-0.029284,-0.00329,0.001846,0.074856,0.087656,-0.004222,0.013488,-0.020069,-0.01101,-0.002986,-0.008884,0.009257,-0.000507,0.016718,0.017383,0.005241,0.00371,-0.015036,-0.026992,-0.006347
Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I6587,0.118376,0.165531,0.05807 7,-0.036499,0.089555,-0.030957,-0.01081,-0.001615,0.060539,0.094763,0.000487,0.004796,-0.036125,-0.020231,-0.003664,-0.002519,0.010431,-0.002154,-0.015335,-0.006253,0.024332,-0.009274,-0.014173,-0.030607,-0.008263
Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I6588,0.134311,0.15436,0.061094 ,0.007429,0.053856,0.014502,0.00658,0.01823,0.0182 03,0.045741,-0.009906,0.016036,-0.025867,-0.026424,0.011265,0.012596,0.000522,0.006081,-0.002388,0.017508,0.006613,-0.015457,-0.001849,-0.003133,0.007305
Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I6623,0.133173,0.146236,0.06147 1,0.036822,0.042162,0.011435,0.00987,0.002077,0.02 1475,0.032256,-0.015427,0.014087,-0.020812,-0.020781,0.009636,-0.006762,-0.016168,0.007221,0.004902,0.005628,0.010482,0.010 51,-0.004683,-0.011929,0
Iberia_Central_BA:I12208,0.119514,0.155376,0.04902 6,-0.001292,0.067089,-0.00753,-0.00141,-0.000692,0.044791,0.055582,0.00065,0.015736,-0.026016,-0.023946,0.006515,0.014585,0.024251,-0.006208,-0.004902,-0.003627,0.010232,-0.00272,-0.010969,-0.016629,-0.001557
Iberia_Central_BA:I12209,0.120652,0.147252,0.05883 1,-0.002907,0.068013,-0.005578,-0.001645,0.000923,0.037837,0.049022,0.000812,0.011 24,-0.025124,-0.022983,0.009772,0.012198,0.024121,0.001394,-0.006788,0.006378,0.009733,-0.006677,-0.008011,-0.017231,0.010418
Iberia_Central_BA:I3490,0.129758,0.153345,0.070522 ,0.005168,0.069551,-0.006414,-0.00987,-0.003923,0.039678,0.05212,-0.004872,0.015886,-0.018285,-0.011147,0.008143,0.008221,0.008084,0.000507,0.002 765,-0.005127,0.007986,0.004451,-0.018487,-0.033258,-0.005149
Iberia_Central_BA:I3493,0.127482,0.13405,0.050534,-0.001615,0.066782,-0.004183,-0.00752,0.006692,0.038655,0.050479,-0.012342,0.010491,-0.02557,-0.021332,0.010993,0.02148,0.011735,0.00114,-0.006034,0.002876,0.022336,0.005441,0.001972,-0.008435,0.008382
Iberia_Central_BA:I3756,0.124067,0.149283,0.06675, 0.001615,0.07386,-0.013666,-0.002115,-0.006,0.033951,0.06761,-0.009743,0.014387,-0.032408,-0.024497,0.007193,0.01432,0.023991,-0.002027,0.001006,-0.006628,0.00836,-0.004575,-0.006532,-0.025425,-0.004191
Iberia_Central_BA:I6470,0.126344,0.148267,0.059962 ,0.002907,0.061858,-0.001394,-0.00799,0.001846,0.042541,0.049933,0.000974,0.0071 94,-0.022299,-0.017478,0.007329,0.003978,0.007953,0.001647,-0.000754,0.004502,0.016221,0,-0.013557,-0.023859,0.008502
Iberia_Central_BA:I6618,0.119514,0.166547,0.061848 ,-0.001292,0.073244,-0.013666,-0.00611,0.000231,0.039473,0.060502,0.003573,0.0154 36,-0.020515,-0.015964,-0.003664,-0.002519,0.009127,0.000633,-0.000377,0.006628,0.00574,0.002844,-0.006409,-0.01699,0.003473
Iberia_Central_CA_Afr:I4246,-0.05122,0.140143,-0.002263,-0.091086,0.0397,-0.047133,-0.036192,0.007384,0.091013,0.044283,0.012179,-0.000899,0.006987,-0.018029,0.020087,-0.016309,0.000652,-0.016596,-0.033561,0.003001,-0.011729,-0.018548,0.013064,-0.009399,0.005987
Iberia_Central_CA_Stp:EHU001,0.126344,0.129988,0.0 50157,0.041344,0.037853,0.011156,0.003995,0.000462 ,0.015135,0.024784,-0.002436,0.008842,-0.017245,-0.013625,0.024294,0.008088,-0.000652,0.006968,0.004022,-0.000125,0.002371,0.00136,0,-0.003856,0.007664
Iberia_Central_CA_Stp:EHU002,0.125205,0.15436,0.05 8831,0.022287,0.055087,-0.000279,0.0047,0.005077,0.031906,0.03991,0.00065, 0.010341,-0.029881,-0.007707,0.010993,0.011403,0.003651,0.00076,0.0020 11,0.003126,0.019216,0.006554,-0.008504,-0.019521,0.008023
Iberia_Central_CA:I3485,0.125205,0.162485,0.051666 ,-0.022933,0.080015,-0.014502,-0.006345,0.004384,0.048472,0.075992,-0.003897,0.014687,-0.025124,-0.011698,-0.005429,-0.001458,-0.00665,-0.001774,-0.009427,-0.014882,0.015098,0.007419,-0.011216,-0.028679,0.006107
Iberia_Central_CA:I6604,0.124067,0.17264,0.061848,-0.028747,0.115098,-0.017291,-0.004935,0.000692,0.078537,0.105697,-0.000812,0.013488,-0.032557,-0.01156,-0.012893,0.005967,0.028684,0.002027,-0.002765,0.007879,0.016845,0.000742,-0.021568,-0.040247,-0.00455
Iberia_Central_CA:I6609,0.126344,0.173656,0.05506,-0.042313,0.097557,-0.030957,-0.010575,-0.000462,0.07097,0.086927,-0.017376,0.010191,-0.030773,-0.01156,-0.001629,0.006895,0.009909,-0.000507,0.003394,-0.000125,0.015098,-0.001731,-0.007395,-0.026028,-0.001078
Iberia_Central_CA:I6617,0.129758,0.167562,0.050911 ,-0.024871,0.090786,-0.022311,-0.00705,-0.003692,0.065652,0.093123,-0.006171,0.017684,-0.03776,-0.023671,0.000814,0.006629,0.014864,0.004561,0.003 017,-0.005002,0.014599,0.001113,-0.007148,-0.027474,0.00479
Iberia_East_IA:I12410,0.132035,0.146236,0.060339,-0.004845,0.066782,-0.005857,0,0.001385,0.034155,0.050115,-0.001137,0.012589,-0.025867,-0.012248,0.008822,0.012596,0.022687,-0.001014,-0.00729,0.008879,0.006239,0.007172,-0.009983,-0.013737,-0.001916
Iberia_East_IA:I12879,0.126344,0.151314,0.061848,0 .009044,0.061242,0.006414,-0.010105,0.004154,0.014726,0.031162,-0.001786,0.009741,-0.021853,-0.015138,0.001493,-0.014187,-0.011474,-0.003041,0.013324,0.010005,0.009608,-0.004575,-0.01405,-0.007109,-0.000599
Iberia_East_IA:I3320,0.118376,0.152329,0.051288,0. 004522,0.064935,-0.003347,-0.014101,0.005538,0.030679,0.049022,-0.002273,0.014237,-0.017245,-0.017203,0.005293,0.001989,0.012386,-0.005068,-0.001006,-0.004377,0.006863,0.000124,0.001972,-0.012893,-0.000359
Iberia_East_IA:I3321,0.126344,0.157407,0.065619,0. 008075,0.062781,-0.013387,0.002115,0.007846,0.039064,0.045923,-0.000487,0.008692,-0.032111,-0.025873,0.011129,0.008221,0.007562,0.010642,0.007 919,-0.00988,0.013601,-0.008779,-0.002465,-0.023859,-0.007544
Iberia_East_IA:I3322,0.124067,0.152329,0.05506,0.0 06137,0.06155,-0.006972,0.003055,0.002769,0.037837,0.055946,-0.003735,0.013188,-0.020367,-0.009083,0.017508,-0.013126,-0.023078,0.005068,0.004902,-0.006753,0.006863,0.000495,-0.005546,-0.018677,0.001437
Iberia_East_IA:I3323,0.121791,0.15436,0.05242,-0.002261,0.059703,-0.008646,-0.00564,0.003231,0.032928,0.05212,-0.006171,0.011839,-0.031962,-0.003578,0.004343,0.001591,0.011474,0.002154,-0.003142,-0.002376,0.002246,0.001607,-0.016392,-0.018195,0.002874
Iberia_East_IA:I3324,0.122929,0.131003,0.05506,0.0 15181,0.059703,0.007809,-0.002585,0.006692,0.019225,0.036083,-0.005846,0.004946,-0.026016,-0.00234,0.00285,0.022938,0.017602,-0.001267,0.01169,-0.008004,-0.00287,0.005564,-0.004067,-0.002048,-0.005269
Iberia_East_IA:I3327,0.124067,0.146236,0.050157,-0.018411,0.042162,-0.001394,-0.00188,0.004154,0.031292,0.054671,-0.016239,0.013638,-0.011447,-0.03069,0.011401,0.025059,0.01708,0.005448,0.00402 2,0.004252,0.001996,-0.002349,-0.008381,-0.002651,0.002395
Iberia_ElMiron:ElMiron,0.0774,0.044683,0.105217,0. 129201,0.11079,0.031236,0.00188,0.006231,0.088559, 0.02442,-0.005359,-0.002847,0.008622,-0.013487,0.037459,0.041633,0.002217,0.006968,-0.015209,0.045772,0.063638,0.007914,-0.036481,-0.129054,0.013053
Iberia_Formentera_MBA:I4420_all,0.120652,0.151314, 0.048649,-0.002261,0.056934,-0.009203,-0.003995,0.004384,0.035792,0.058133,-0.001461,0.01079,-0.02438,-0.022845,0.004479,0.008884,0.012126,-0.001014,-0.003268,-0.002376,0.006114,0.000124,-0.000493,-0.01687,0.002275
Iberia_Ibiza_Punic:MS10614,0.080814,0.139128,0.005 657,-0.037791,0.035083,-0.016176,-0.004935,-0.007615,0.02986,0.042461,0.001624,0.010341,-0.004906,-0.007156,0.004886,0.012861,0.002217,-0.008742,-0.001508,0.003001,0.001622,-0.0115,-0.002095,-0.008676,0.005389
Iberia_Mallorca_EBA:I4329,0.120652,0.14319,0.05656 8,0.008398,0.054472,0,0,0.005077,0.023111,0.043008 ,-0.012179,0.014087,-0.027502,-0.017891,0.0076,0.006895,0.010691,-0.002914,0.003268,-0.011756,-0.001747,-0.006183,-0.016885,-0.006868,0.0097
Iberia_Menorca_LBA:I3315,0.122929,0.153345,0.05430 5,0.001615,0.062165,-0.002231,-0.00376,0.002308,0.035178,0.05212,-0.005521,0.013938,-0.026016,-0.016377,0.015065,0.008618,0.002738,-0.004814,-0.004274,-0.004502,-0.001497,0.002473,-0.003821,-0.016147,-0.000599
Iberia_MN:I0405,0.1161,0.162485,0.057699,-0.038114,0.082477,-0.024821,-0.002585,-0.000231,0.067084,0.08638,0.000974,0.016186,-0.038652,-0.020368,-0.003529,0.000928,0.013038,-0.003674,-0.006285,-0.004752,0.018842,0.008037,-0.013927,-0.0435,0.000958
Iberia_MN:I0406,0.124067,0.156392,0.050911,-0.033592,0.082477,-0.014781,-0.010105,0.003692,0.063198,0.087656,-0.00341,0.008093,-0.024826,-0.015138,-0.007465,-0.00716,-0.00352,0.006461,0.000503,-0.005753,0.015972,0.004822,-0.014666,-0.035186,0.009819
Iberia_MN:I0407,0.121791,0.161469,0.046386,-0.027455,0.086785,-0.029284,-0.018096,-0.006461,0.061766,0.096585,-0.004384,0.018583,-0.038503,-0.008808,-0.011265,0.003845,0.021513,0.007981,0.000754,-0.006753,0.018717,0.003586,-0.014543,-0.044103,-0.002036
Iberia_MN:I0408,0.122929,0.170609,0.054305,-0.035207,0.089555,-0.017012,-0.008695,-0.001154,0.065243,0.09859,-0.005196,0.012589,-0.029435,-0.018579,-0.01045,0.001061,0.012778,0.006208,0,-0.004502,0.019216,0.002102,-0.019103,-0.039524,0.000958
Iberia_N:I0409,0.120652,0.18178,0.034695,-0.062339,0.079092,-0.039045,-0.00517,0.002077,0.061153,0.100412,-0.00341,0.01079,-0.037908,-0.013625,-0.025787,-0.007823,0.009518,0.003167,0.011187,-0.008004,-0.008235,0.006801,-0.003697,-0.025546,0.002874
Iberia_N:I0410,0.119514,0.187873,0.028284,-0.086241,0.076014,-0.037929,-0.00235,-0.001615,0.06463,0.112986,0.009094,0.023229,-0.044004,-0.012524,-0.010179,-0.012331,0.00013,0.004054,-0.002388,-0.013131,-0.002121,-0.001484,-0.012202,-0.021087,0.000718
Iberia_N:I0412,0.121791,0.171624,0.025644,-0.064923,0.06832,-0.044344,-0.00329,-0.005307,0.054608,0.094763,0.006496,0.01109,-0.029881,-0.022157,-0.017101,0.006895,0.018254,0.005954,0.003645,-0.00988,-0.006863,-0.000371,-0.008997,-0.017834,-0.000479
Iberia_N:I0413,0.126344,0.182795,0.045254,-0.072029,0.081554,-0.03263,-0.010575,0.000692,0.055221,0.105515,0.008607,0.019 932,-0.039395,-0.006331,-0.034066,-0.008884,0.012647,-0.005574,0.004399,-0.011756,0.008111,0.00915,-0.008504,-0.015785,0.00946
Iberia_N:I1972,0.129758,0.17264,0.034695,-0.065892,0.080323,-0.035977,-0.00094,-0.006,0.067288,0.10679,-0.001137,0.014387,-0.037314,0.000826,-0.020629,-0.004243,-0.001825,0.005574,-0.005405,-0.011631,0.003619,0.011252,-0.00456,-0.01699,-0.000479
Iberia_N:I2199,0.119514,0.184826,0.027907,-0.075905,0.078476,-0.044901,-0.00329,-0.014307,0.059516,0.107155,0.001137,0.017684,-0.034787,-0.010597,-0.019951,-0.001856,0.0103,-0.001394,0.012193,-0.013632,-0.00574,0.005812,-0.008381,-0.021208,0.000838
Iberia_N:mur,0.136588,0.161469,0.02489,-0.046835,0.078476,-0.019243,-0.003055,0.001154,0.073833,0.101506,-0.002598,0.016036,-0.037165,-0.019405,-0.019272,-0.010475,0.007432,0.003801,0.014832,0.006378,0.018 093,-0.00507,-0.00456,-0.036029,-0.004431
Iberia_N:TOR.6,0.124067,0.170609,0.054305,-0.041021,0.079707,-0.020359,0.001645,0.009923,0.061562,0.081277,-0.000812,0.010041,-0.0278,-0.001514,-0.010858,-0.01538,-0.008866,0.007855,0.006034,5e-04,0.011854,0.001113,-0.005916,-0.034583,0.004071
Iberia_N:TOR.8,0.117238,0.166547,0.032055,-0.04845,0.069244,-0.030957,-0.012926,0.002769,0.058494,0.086015,0.001786,0.017 085,-0.020515,-0.012524,-0.013029,0.001061,0.019036,-0.006841,-0.00088,-0.001876,0.003494,0.005193,-0.016515,-0.023256,-0.011735
Iberia_North_BA:I1840,0.127482,0.155376,0.059585,0 .003553,0.077245,-0.005299,-0.005405,0.003,0.034565,0.052484,-0.001624,0.014687,-0.020664,-0.018166,0.001764,0.018563,0.021122,0.002027,0.002 137,0.005628,0.010856,0.003586,-0.004067,-0.034463,0.010059
Iberia_North_BA:I2470,0.120652,0.158423,0.05506,0. 000969,0.062781,-0.007251,-0.00141,0.004384,0.041927,0.057951,-0.002761,0.007793,-0.016353,-0.011147,0.001357,-0.006497,-0.01369,0.011655,-0.005405,-0.014507,0.010606,0.001484,-0.012325,-0.0241,-0.002036
Iberia_North_BA:I2471,0.126344,0.155376,0.058077,-0.001292,0.063704,0.00251,0.000235,0.013153,0.0255 65,0.048839,-0.004384,0.010191,-0.018583,-0.005643,0.006107,-0.001193,-0.004042,0.006968,-0.005908,-0.002001,0.005989,0.011747,-0.009983,-0.003976,0.00455
Iberia_North_BA:VAD001,0.12862,0.147252,0.053174,0 .008398,0.070475,0,-0.011516,0.007384,0.033746,0.058862,-0.003085,0.011839,-0.020515,-0.027112,0.007465,0.014585,0.022296,-0.003547,-0.012318,0.003502,0.014474,0.010016,-0.007641,-0.017111,0.001317
Iberia_North_BA:VAD004,0.120652,0.15436,0.052043,0 .006783,0.06155,-0.007809,0.004935,0.002308,0.030679,0.058133,-0.005034,0.007643,-0.034192,-0.011698,0.015201,-0.010475,0.002217,0.005701,0.009427,-0.01038,0.006738,0.006306,-0.005669,-0.012411,0.010418
Iberia_North_BA:VAD005,0.121791,0.157407,0.055437, 0.008721,0.072013,0.003347,-0.00188,-0.007154,0.03845,0.053942,-0.008931,0.005845,-0.015163,-0.018854,0.007057,0.013657,0.026729,0.006714,0.005 028,0.002626,0.006364,0.000742,-0.016392,-0.022172,-0.001796
Iberia_North_CA:I1842,0.135449,0.166547,0.072784,-0.021641,0.087401,-0.014781,-0.003525,0.009692,0.070152,0.093852,0.00341,0.0152 86,-0.027948,-0.021607,-0.015201,-0.002121,0.001695,0.003167,0.003645,-0.006753,0.015597,-0.00136,-0.016392,-0.044344,0.004431
Iberia_North_CA:I1845,0.136588,0.17264,0.058077,-0.028101,0.076937,-0.015618,-0.00282,0.004846,0.069538,0.093852,0.003897,0.0215 81,-0.039544,-0.011147,0.002579,-0.017369,-0.007953,0.001647,0.006662,-0.012131,0.021462,0.004822,-0.021568,-0.033017,0.00934
Iberia_North_CA:I1846,0.135449,0.167562,0.058454,-0.033269,0.087093,-0.026495,-0.00329,0.005077,0.071174,0.102599,-0.010393,0.020232,-0.037314,-0.022295,-0.001221,0.004243,0.014733,0.005194,-0.00729,0.003377,0.017968,0.005564,-0.014666,-0.047718,0.010298
Iberia_North_CA:I1978,0.132035,0.166547,0.062225,-0.023579,0.094787,-0.020359,-0.00235,0.003461,0.066061,0.092029,0.001949,0.0197 82,-0.029583,-0.016377,0.000271,-0.000265,0.001304,0.000633,-0.002891,0.002001,0.008859,-0.000618,-0.017008,-0.039765,-0.001916
Iberia_North_IA:I3758,0.125205,0.146236,0.06675,0. 013889,0.053241,0.003347,-0.004465,0.002308,0.030474,0.034989,0.001624,0.008 393,-0.017691,-0.00812,0.013843,-0.007292,-0.02047,0.00114,-0.00352,-0.002751,0.003494,0.000618,-0.008134,-0.016508,-0.002994
Iberia_North_IA:I3759,0.125205,0.140143,0.063356,0 .009044,0.062781,0.003347,-0.00235,0.006692,0.02168,0.034989,-0.006008,0.009292,-0.016204,-0.008945,0.0076,0.007425,0.003912,0.000633,0.00326 8,0.001251,0.012977,0.004081,-0.006039,-0.007109,-0.009221
Iberia_North_MLN:I11248,0.135449,0.167562,0.070899 ,-0.017119,0.098788,-0.020638,-0.0094,0.002538,0.059516,0.093487,0.000325,0.01318 8,-0.028692,-0.019818,-0.013436,0.011668,0.005737,0.002914,0.001634,-0.007003,0.01959,0.006059,-0.020336,-0.046272,0.000838
Iberia_North_MLN:I11249,0.132035,0.159438,0.065619 ,-0.01615,0.09571,-0.016455,-0.00705,0.007154,0.075878,0.08474,-0.001299,0.013488,-0.02661,-0.018304,-0.0038,0.019358,0.024903,0.002407,-0.002263,-0.003252,0.008235,0.005688,-0.015406,-0.039162,0.000359
Iberia_North_MLN:I11301,0.12862,0.164516,0.064865,-0.021964,0.093248,-0.016176,-0.005875,0.006,0.060335,0.095127,-0.009743,0.008093,-0.039098,-0.024222,0.000679,0.004906,-0.001565,0.006841,-0.001383,-0.002626,0.022959,0.001978,-0.023787,-0.043259,0.006107
Iberia_North_MLN:I7602,0.126344,0.159438,0.071653,-0.023256,0.086785,-0.019522,-0.00658,0.000462,0.065039,0.084922,-0.002761,0.007793,-0.032408,-0.01734,-0.006922,0.006099,0.004694,0.000507,-0.005405,0.003377,0.017719,0.007419,-0.013311,-0.049525,0.012454
Iberia_North_MLN:I7603,0.124067,0.17264,0.066373,-0.021318,0.101557,-0.022032,-0.002115,0.010846,0.068925,0.088567,-0.007145,0.018134,-0.037462,-0.007982,0.004207,-0.014717,-0.008084,0.002154,0.005908,-0.001,0.013351,0.008408,-0.012941,-0.032173,-0.001197
Iberia_North_MLN:I7604,0.134311,0.156392,0.067505,-0.022933,0.08894,-0.010598,-0.009635,0.005077,0.062584,0.094945,0.000325,0.017 834,-0.029732,-0.010459,-0.006243,-0.003845,0.014342,-0.004181,-0.005279,0.010255,0.015223,0.006306,-0.008627,-0.042657,-0.001557
Iberia_North_MLN:I7605,0.122929,0.166547,0.073161,-0.014858,0.09294,-0.028168,-0.00846,-0.006231,0.069947,0.090389,-0.003897,0.016635,-0.026016,-0.017891,-0.0038,0.003315,0.005998,-0.009375,-0.001508,-0.002251,0.016221,-0.007914,-0.009737,-0.052658,0.007185
Iberia_North_MLN:I7606,0.136588,0.167562,0.074293,-0.01938,0.096326,-0.020638,0.000705,0.007615,0.058698,0.089478,-0.001786,0.012589,-0.027056,-0.024222,-0.000271,0.016574,0.020079,0.002154,0.009427,-0.001751,0.014849,0.003833,-0.007888,-0.039524,0.008023
Iberia_Northeast_BA:I1310,0.121791,0.152329,0.0592 08,0.007429,0.070782,-0.009482,-0.00329,-0.001846,0.039473,0.05704,-0.001299,0.010191,-0.017393,-0.017203,0.005429,0.015248,0.016298,-0.006841,-0.000628,0.002126,-0.001622,0.006183,-0.007518,-0.025064,-0.000599
Iberia_Northeast_BA:I1313_d,0.122929,0.152329,0.05 8831,-0.004845,0.064012,-0.019522,-0.008695,-0.001154,0.041927,0.047564,0.000325,0.010041,-0.029732,-0.011836,0.002036,0.010607,0.021774,0.005701,0.004 651,0.007379,0.01959,0.005935,-0.013311,-0.008555,0.001317
Iberia_Northeast_BA:I1836,0.129758,0.157407,0.0584 54,-0.00323,0.059396,-0.000558,-0.00141,-0.003231,0.039064,0.04811,0.00065,0.006145,-0.029435,-0.021332,0.002443,0.011535,0.008214,0.000127,-0.00176,-0.001251,0.008859,0.010016,-0.007765,-0.016629,-0.007544
Iberia_Northeast_BA:I4559,0.12862,0.14319,0.062979 ,0.006783,0.07386,-0.004462,0.006345,0.000231,0.047859,0.062689,0.000 325,0.008093,-0.021407,-0.020368,-0.000679,0.02254,0.015646,-0.005068,0.00176,0.013506,0.010731,0.004328,-0.010723,-0.016267,0.002395
Iberia_Northeast_BA:I4560,0.127482,0.151314,0.0599 62,0.008398,0.063704,-0.005578,-0.00658,0.004154,0.025361,0.061049,-0.008931,0.007793,-0.029435,-0.019267,-0.005157,0.009016,0.025816,0.001394,-0.005656,0.003752,0.003119,-0.006677,-0.015406,-0.015183,0.003233
Iberia_Northeast_BA:I4561,0.130897,0.144205,0.0644 88,0.011305,0.065858,0.004462,0.00235,0,0.041723,0 .054853,-0.003897,0.015137,-0.026164,-0.018029,-0.000271,0.003713,-0.002868,0.008108,0.006662,0.001751,0.015348,-0.003957,-0.016392,-0.014219,-0.001078
Iberia_Northeast_BA:I4562,0.122929,0.152329,0.0629 79,-0.001938,0.065551,-0.007251,0.00235,-0.001154,0.039473,0.055035,-0.007957,0.004346,-0.024232,-0.016102,0.004343,0.008884,0.00339,-0.000127,0.000503,0.003502,0.010232,0.004081,-0.01023,-0.022654,0.006586
Iberia_Northeast_BA:I4563,0.126344,0.149283,0.0599 62,0.001615,0.072013,-0.00502,0.00235,-0.000923,0.035792,0.054124,-0.001786,0.010641,-0.027354,-0.023121,-0.001764,0.004243,0.002868,-0.000507,0.001885,0.00075,0.020214,-0.00136,-0.02391,-0.012532,-0.001557
Iberia_Northeast_c.6-8CE_ES:I3777,0.125205,0.144205,0.050534,0.018088,0 .041546,0.001116,0.004935,0.004615,0.02168,0.02387 3,-0.008282,0.012439,-0.006095,-0.009909,0.016015,0.002917,0.004955,0.005321,0.005 028,-0.00025,0.000374,-0.01286,-0.00037,0.001446,0.000718
Iberia_Northeast_c.6-8CE_ES:I7673,0.111547,0.147252,0.038843,0.009044,0 .047701,-0.001394,-0.00376,0.010615,0.027202,0.02934,-0.007795,0.005395,-0.006838,-0.003441,0.008143,0.001193,-0.021513,0.003421,-0.006536,0.005753,-0.001373,0.011005,-0.010969,0.003374,-0.005269
Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL:I12031,0.126344,0.133034 ,0.039598,0.017119,0.03416,0.007809,0.009635,0.009 461,0.002659,0.004738,-0.006658,-0.002548,-0.009068,-0.003165,0.002307,-0.003315,0.004303,0.003547,-0.008296,0.006128,-0.000499,0.001237,-0.002711,0.00482,-0.008263
Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL:I12032,0.142279,0.145221 ,0.04978,0.030039,0.03139,0.010877,-0.00047,0.013153,0.011862,0.011116,-0.006333,0.013038,-0.01888,-0.00234,0.004886,0.008221,0.004563,0.012162,0.0022 63,0.013006,0.010232,-0.000618,-0.001356,-0.002651,0.000838
Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL:I12034,0.130897,0.139128 ,0.0445,0.01615,0.052317,-0.001394,0.00047,0,0.021475,0.036447,-0.000974,0.017085,-0.019623,-0.009358,0.017644,0.009281,0.000522,-0.00152,-0.009804,-0.005503,0.006738,0.005688,-0.00493,-0.013616,-0.001197
Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL:I12162,0.114961,0.126941 ,0.046763,0.030685,0.043085,0.011713,0.006815,0.00 0923,0.002863,0.006196,-0.010393,0.007343,-0.000297,-0.011147,0.005157,-0.005701,0.001173,0.003801,0.005656,0.002501,0.019 965,0.000371,-0.000616,0.014821,-0.002634
Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL:I12163,0.122929,0.139128 ,0.05242,0.022287,0.028313,0.005857,0.00799,-0.001615,0.001841,0.000911,-0.005196,-0.001349,-0.015163,-0.004817,0.001221,0.01843,0.020079,-0.000253,0.00352,0.008004,-0.003494,0.003091,-0.003821,0.009399,-0.003233
Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE:I10852,0.1161,0.135065,0.040729,-0.007429,0.043393,0.001394,0.001645,0.005307,0.025 361,0.036083,-0.013478,0.000599,-0.006838,-0.007569,0.00665,0.016309,0.015385,0.001014,0.0008 8,0.005503,0.00549,-0.005317,-0.00419,-0.010724,0.003353
Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE:I10853,0.112685,0.155376,0.017725,-0.002261,0.025851,0.002231,-0.002585,0.004615,0.029656,0.036447,-0.000974,0.003447,-0.012636,-0.013762,-0.0076,-0.007558,0.00352,-0.006081,-0.00264,-0.006628,0.007736,0.000742,-0.001109,0.006748,0.005149
Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE:I10892,0.114961,0.147252,0.033187,-0.010659,0.040623,-0.000279,-0.003055,0.002077,0.02352,0.030798,-0.001461,0.006894,-0.012487,-0.009358,0.008143,-0.007558,-0.01356,-0.008868,0.002514,-0.007379,-0.000624,0.004946,0.002095,0.000482,-0.006586
Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE:I10895,0.112685,0.144205,0.044123,-0.005168,0.040315,-0.00753,0.004465,0.000692,0.025156,0.028976,0.0029 23,0.004496,-0.015312,-0.016102,0.0038,-0.006364,-0.005085,-0.00228,-0.004274,-0.001626,0.004742,0.001113,0.002465,-0.001205,-0.003353
Iberia_Northeast_CA:I4565,0.129758,0.167562,0.0561 91,-0.029393,0.08617,-0.0251,-0.006815,-0.001615,0.066061,0.099319,-0.001299,0.014987,-0.032408,-0.015276,-0.005565,0.008618,0.008214,0.013429,0.004777,-0.003126,0.016221,0.007419,-0.018734,-0.043259,0.002515
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1:I8203,0.126344,0.14319, 0.051288,0.021641,0.037238,-0.005299,0.00094,0.004846,0.024747,0.026971,-0.003897,0.008992,-0.025272,-0.026011,0.008822,0.004906,0.012126,-0.003547,0.003268,0.003627,0.007487,0.000618,-0.001972,0.004458,-0.00467
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1:I8206,0.125205,0.127957 ,0.053928,0.048773,0.040931,0.013387,0.006815,0.00 6231,0.012067,0.014214,-0.001786,-0.005245,-0.015163,-0.018029,0.021444,0.011403,0.011735,0.010262,0.003 897,0.009129,0.009733,-0.000989,-0.004807,0.016629,0.006227
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1:I8209,0.12862,0.145221, 0.054682,0.013243,0.043393,0.009761,-0.001175,0.006,0.026384,0.033167,-0.006658,0.018434,-0.016501,-0.023121,0.011401,0.004508,0.005085,0.000127,0.003 897,-0.009254,0.001123,0.00507,0.002218,-0.009881,0.008263
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1:I8214,0.130897,0.138112 ,0.058454,0.026809,0.046162,0.008367,-0.001175,-0.004154,0.016771,0.030069,-0.001624,0.009741,-0.022299,-0.014588,0.010586,0.00769,0.002868,0.002787,0.0036 45,0.001376,0.011105,0.006801,-0.00986,-0.012893,0.005628
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8208,0.1161,0.158423,-0.017348,-0.06783,0.026774,-0.032351,-0.00282,-0.001154,0.007158,0.04319,0.003573,0.015586,-0.017096,0.006468,-0.016965,-0.02559,-0.007693,-0.000253,0.00993,-0.017133,-0.003494,0.000866,0.005053,0.00241,-0.010538
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215,0.120652,0.158423 ,-0.000754,-0.066215,0.023697,-0.023427,0.00611,-0.009,0.002659,0.041914,0.002111,0.006894,-0.01665,0.000688,-0.020087,-0.005967,0.014864,0.001014,-0.000754,-0.008254,-0.013102,0.002226,-0.001725,0.011809,-0.006466
Iberia_Northeast_MLN:I10277,0.121791,0.173656,0.05 0911,-0.034884,0.090786,-0.01757,-0.004935,0.003,0.066061,0.090754,-0.003573,0.020532,-0.023786,-0.013349,-0.009636,0.011933,0.020079,0.005321,-0.005154,-0.005127,0.003369,0.000742,-0.015406,-0.034704,0.000838
Iberia_Northeast_MLN:I10278,0.121791,0.17264,0.050 157,-0.044574,0.088324,-0.017849,-0.000705,0.006,0.072197,0.101141,0.005359,0.012889 ,-0.0278,-0.01156,0.003257,-0.011005,-0.009518,0.006461,0.002388,-0.000625,0.009109,0.000495,-0.017748,-0.046754,0.007065
Iberia_Northeast_MLN:I10280,0.130897,0.165531,0.05 5814,-0.045543,0.094171,-0.027331,-0.002115,-0.000462,0.056653,0.090936,-0.00341,0.018883,-0.032111,-0.025598,-0.004343,-0.003182,-0.002217,-0.005068,-0.000754,-0.005628,0.010232,0.008656,-0.020459,-0.03868,-0.003832
Iberia_Northeast_MLN:I10285,0.132035,0.171624,0.06 5619,-0.029393,0.092633,-0.009203,-0.008695,0.007384,0.062584,0.090389,-0.001461,0.006744,-0.03107,-0.018992,0.006379,-0.007027,-0.004172,0.011909,0.000628,-0.008629,0.014599,0.006677,-0.013434,-0.039042,-0.000239
Iberia_Northeast_MLN:I10287,0.117238,0.169593,0.04 3369,-0.033915,0.093864,-0.028447,-0.002115,-0.000692,0.054812,0.095492,-0.004872,0.017385,-0.031516,-0.018166,-0.013029,0.013259,0.024512,-0.000633,-0.004525,-0.001376,0.012977,0.008656,-0.020213,-0.032776,-0.004431
Iberia_Northeast_MLN:I11305,0.130897,0.168578,0.04 2992,-0.050065,0.078784,-0.023148,-0.000705,0.006461,0.061971,0.096221,0.001137,0.023 979,-0.038354,-0.02491,-0.016558,0.009812,0.021253,0.000253,-0.005782,-0.005378,0.01123,0.001484,-0.01442,-0.020605,0.000599
Iberia_Northeast_MLN:I11306,0.126344,0.171624,0.06 1471,-0.037468,0.092633,-0.0251,-0.015041,0.006,0.069743,0.096038,-0.007632,0.017085,-0.030327,-0.010459,-0.002036,-0.006099,-0.01356,0.004181,0.009553,-0.002126,0.019216,0.00915,-0.017378,-0.043862,0.005389
Iberia_Northeast_RomP:I8339,0.129758,0.140143,0.04 8271,0.019703,0.056626,-0.00502,0.00282,-0.007615,0.031701,0.045923,-0.006171,0.004946,-0.010852,-0.006331,0.010043,0.014054,0.007171,0.00038,-0.003142,0.002876,0.004866,0.006925,-0.007272,0.000241,0.000479
Iberia_Northeast_UP_Azilian:BAL051,0.101303,0.0761 65,0.144814,0.163762,0.136641,0.042112,0.00235,0.0 32537,0.08999,0.02934,-0.012666,-0.009891,-0.001338,-0.016652,0.047909,0.050119,0.00013,0.006461,-0.008925,0.058528,0.092337,0.014838,-0.052997,-0.158095,0.012095
Iberia_Northwest_CA_Stp:I3238,0.119514,0.139128,0. 056191,0.035207,0.066782,-0.004183,-0.003055,-0.008077,0.024747,0.040456,0.00682,0.009741,-0.017096,-0.018166,0.016015,-0.000265,0.004955,0.007475,-0.011564,0.002751,0.007362,0.005193,-0.000863,-0.014339,-0.001916
Iberia_Northwest_Meso:Canes,0.122929,0.101553,0.16 4802,0.175067,0.130178,0.053547,0.020211,0.031153, 0.079355,0.00164,-0.009094,-0.015286,0.023786,-0.000413,0.049266,0.040307,-0.015125,0.009248,-0.012193,0.049399,0.087471,0.007296,-0.04289,-0.144358,0.015687
Iberia_Northwest_Meso:Chan,0.092197,0.055854,0.124 073,0.153426,0.12587,0.042112,0.00705,0.028153,0.0 91831,0.02934,-0.006658,-0.007943,0.010704,-0.017065,0.055645,0.048528,0.001565,0.008235,-0.016215,0.061154,0.095581,0.01558,-0.050532,-0.16412,0.021555
Iberia_Southeast_BA:I3494,0.127482,0.158423,0.0573 22,-0.017442,0.07109,-0.00753,-0.010105,0.004846,0.0452,0.073806,-0.004872,0.012439,-0.020218,-0.014588,0.00665,0.001724,-0.000261,0.009755,-0.002011,0.001,0.011355,-0.001607,-0.009244,-0.029281,0.001557
Iberia_Southeast_BA:I3997,0.122929,0.160454,0.0539 28,-0.002584,0.06832,-0.013108,-0.0047,0.005307,0.046836,0.072165,0.000812,0.01378 8,-0.032259,-0.032754,0.006786,0.020817,0.024121,-0.005574,-0.006662,-0.001251,0.003369,0.004946,-0.008381,-0.025184,0.000599
Iberia_Southeast_BA:I8136,0.125205,0.15436,0.05392 8,-0.004845,0.069244,-0.006693,-0.00752,0.009,0.055221,0.06925,-0.001786,0.014687,-0.030773,-0.013487,0.000814,-0.001193,0.004172,-0.004181,0.010307,-0.007379,0.012104,0.003215,-0.002095,-0.020003,-0.005149
Iberia_Southeast_BA:I8570,0.132035,0.155376,0.0573 22,-0.004522,0.058472,0.000279,-0.0047,0.002308,0.044995,0.05376,-0.001624,0.005695,-0.020069,-0.010046,0.00665,0.001326,-0.007041,-0.006714,0.00088,0.008879,0.008111,-0.002226,0.000246,-0.010242,-0.001197
Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE:I12514,0.09675,0.142174,0.032432,-0.011951,0.044624,-0.004183,-0.004935,0.002538,0.026588,0.031527,0,-0.001798,-0.0055,-0.017065,0.004614,-0.000265,-0.008345,-0.008235,-0.014958,-0.001501,0.002371,-0.007914,0.007272,-0.004217,0.003233
Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE:I12515,0.101303,0.146236,0.026398,-0.015827,0.034468,-0.000837,-0.00893,0.004154,0.025565,0.025331,0.002436,0.0089 92,-0.011298,-0.01101,0.003257,-0.00716,-0.017863,-0.012035,-0.006662,0.006378,0.006863,0.004081,0.00456,-0.003976,-0.000718
Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE:I12516,0.099026,0.148267,0.027907,-0.019703,0.044008,-0.007251,-0.006815,-0.004154,0.024134,0.028429,-0.00065,0.011989,-0.015163,-0.027249,0.003393,0.016574,0.021905,-0.009755,-0.007668,-0.003252,-0.003993,0.005564,-0.01405,-0.000843,0
Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE:I12644,0.080814,0.140143,0.028661,-0.024871,0.038161,-0.01506,-0.003055,-0.006692,0.036201,0.027153,-0.005196,0.006894,-0.006244,-0.008257,0.012622,0.007425,0.013951,-0.016596,-0.014455,0.001376,-0.004866,-0.006059,0.012078,-0.00241,0.003233
Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE:I12647,0.087644,0.140143,0.029415,-0.023902,0.039392,-0.019243,-0.00846,0.005077,0.025361,0.032802,0.001949,0.0086 92,-0.005054,-0.012524,0.014386,0.014452,0.025295,-0.014062,-0.00729,0.005503,-0.002121,-0.006306,0.004683,-0.005784,-0.00479
Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE:I3808,0.084229,0.141159,-0.003017,-0.050711,0.014772,-0.025658,-0.014571,-0.003923,0.02986,0.021868,0.014453,-0.008992,0.006541,-0.005643,0.006107,0.010475,0.003651,-0.001394,-0.008422,-0.001501,0.00025,-0.006925,0.001356,-0.001687,0.005149
Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE:I7424,0.094473,0.139128,0.016593,-0.031008,0.027697,-0.013387,-0.012456,0.001154,0.028224,0.019317,0.003085,0.002 548,0.001338,-0.00578,0.011265,-0.009414,-0.016689,-0.001267,-0.000628,-0.002001,0.006114,-0.006677,0.011339,-0.011568,-0.001197
Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE:I7425,0.055773,0.146236,0.024136,-0.024225,0.032929,-0.013666,-0.008695,-0.000231,0.020248,0.023508,-0.006333,0.007793,0.00223,-0.015827,0.012486,-0.007292,-0.018123,-0.006461,-0.006788,0.002626,0.000125,-0.007914,0.003451,-0.005784,0.001437
Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE:I7457,0.068294,0.147252,0.02489,-0.024225,0.035391,-0.017849,-0.012691,0.005307,0.03436,0.033167,0.003897,0.0071 94,-0.007582,-0.010459,0.006107,-0.006099,0.009127,0,-0.013952,-0.003627,-0.007861,-0.025843,0.006532,-0.001446,-0.002275
Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE:I7498,0.093335,0.136081,0.024136,-0.014858,0.040931,-0.007809,-0.006815,0.002077,0.02577,0.029704,-0.001461,-0.003597,-0.012487,-0.003303,0.005836,-0.007823,-0.001565,-0.005954,-0.005405,0.001251,-0.007112,-0.013973,0.002465,-0.010483,0.004311
Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE:I7499,0.073985,0.14319,0,-0.041021,0.020004,-0.022032,-0.010575,0.001615,0.028633,0.017677,0.008282,-0.004796,0.010406,-0.002202,0.011943,0.000663,-0.004303,-0.00114,-0.017472,0.009379,0.006114,-0.007419,0.000246,-0.000843,-0.001557
Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE:I8146,0.033009,0.141159,0.024513,-0.03876,0.0397,-0.022869,-0.021856,-0.004615,0.029042,0.022597,-0.007145,0.010041,-0.005203,-0.015138,0.008822,-0.003978,0.009518,-0.005701,-0.016844,-0.002251,-0.013476,-0.013602,-0.003697,-0.010242,-0.002395
Iberia_Southeast_c.3-4CE:I3982,0.084229,0.147252,0.030924,-0.027132,0.044931,-0.021475,-0.00047,0.004154,0.030883,0.041914,-0.006333,0.004196,-0.00669,-0.010322,0.00665,-0.005436,-0.013951,-0.006588,-0.011816,-5e-04,0.001622,-0.006306,0.005423,-0.006145,-0.003712
Iberia_Southeast_c.3-4CE:I3983,0.075123,0.148267,0.011314,-0.039729,0.035391,-0.021753,-0.001175,0.003692,0.03027,0.032985,-0.001786,0.003747,-0.009366,-0.017616,0.008143,0.008618,0.011474,-0.00038,-0.014078,0.003377,0.002745,-0.005812,0.008504,0.000843,-0.003832
Iberia_Southeast_c.3-4CE:I4054,0.078538,0.142174,0.008674,-0.032946,0.032929,-0.014781,-0.003995,0.014769,0.028838,0.034807,-0.005846,0.002997,-0.002676,-0.017753,0.004479,0.013922,0.024121,-0.008995,-0.007793,-0.006503,-0.000125,0.000618,0.006409,0.001807,-0.003113
Iberia_Southeast_c.5-8CE:I3575,0.062603,0.138112,0.014331,-0.0323,0.036007,0.00251,-0.0094,-0.002077,0.029042,0.034807,0.004384,0.005245,0.009 068,-0.012937,0.0038,-0.013524,-0.013169,0.003041,-0.029288,-0.011005,-0.00861,-0.007172,0.011092,-0.007953,0
Iberia_Southeast_c.5-8CE:I3576,0.080814,0.147252,0.023004,-0.036499,0.030467,-0.019243,-0.00423,0.006923,0.040496,0.032802,-0.001949,0.005095,-0.006244,-0.000275,0.011536,-0.0118,-0.001956,0.000127,-0.010936,0.002001,0.002496,-0.02065,0.004683,-0.01446,0.003233
Iberia_Southeast_c.5-8CE:I3581,0.085367,0.153345,0.023004,-0.033592,0.033545,-0.013945,-0.004465,0.005769,0.035383,0.036083,-0.001624,0.005695,-0.007582,-0.005092,0.00475,-0.000398,0.011213,-0.00266,-0.015964,0,0.000125,-0.018177,0.009613,-0.003976,-0.003233
Iberia_Southeast_c.5-8CE:I3582,0.075123,0.142174,0.023381,-0.012597,0.037853,-0.003347,-0.00611,0.006461,0.033951,0.04483,-0.006496,0.006294,-0.007433,-0.015964,-0.0019,-0.008884,0.001304,-0.001394,-0.011313,0.006878,-0.008235,-0.011376,0.00419,-0.014339,0.000479
Iberia_Southeast_c.5-8CE:I3585,0.099026,0.146236,0.033187,-0.012597,0.037238,-0.010877,-0.005875,0.003,0.031088,0.033896,-0.005684,0.007643,-0.008771,-0.016377,0.005022,0.002254,0.002608,0.004181,-0.003142,0.004002,0.001996,-0.005688,0.00912,-0.009881,-0.001916
Iberia_Southeast_c.5-8CE:I3980,0.056912,0.155376,0.006788,-0.051357,0.030775,-0.018128,-0.013866,-0.007384,0.025975,0.03098,-0.004222,0.004046,-0.00773,0.000275,-0.002036,0.000265,0.011474,-0.004941,-0.003268,-0.004502,-0.004367,-0.006677,-0.002218,-0.006507,-0.002395
Iberia_Southeast_c.5-8CE:I3981,0.080814,0.150298,0.021119,-0.030685,0.035391,-0.01004,-0.010575,0.007154,0.031701,0.035354,-0.000974,0.007793,-0.000595,-0.024497,0.006107,0.009281,0.013169,0.001394,-0.005028,0.00025,-0.003119,-0.008779,0.00456,-0.004699,0.003473
Iberia_Southeast_CA:I8197,0.118376,0.165531,0.0456 32,-0.042313,0.092633,-0.022032,-0.00188,0.000923,0.062175,0.093305,-0.002598,0.014237,-0.027205,-0.020781,-0.018322,0.00305,0.022556,0.009375,-0.002137,-0.00963,0.000998,0.004575,-0.012448,-0.034101,0.000838
Iberia_Southeast_CA:I8198,0.121791,0.159438,0.0433 69,-0.037145,0.084631,-0.018686,-0.010105,0.003231,0.059516,0.098043,-0.001624,0.019033,-0.036868,-0.023121,-0.009772,0.00358,0.01017,-0.000633,-0.00264,-0.006378,0.001373,0,-0.00912,-0.040367,0.004311
Iberia_Southeast_CA:I8199,0.127482,0.167562,0.0494 03,-0.051034,0.091709,-0.025658,-0.00658,-0.000231,0.067493,0.095309,0.000974,0.019932,-0.031813,-0.017616,-0.002579,-0.005569,0.014603,0.005701,-0.003017,-0.003502,0.007861,-0.002844,-0.019473,-0.040608,0.004431
Iberia_Southeast_CA:I8364,0.126344,0.174671,0.0554 37,-0.043928,0.078476,-0.025379,-0.015981,-0.000462,0.063811,0.089478,-0.000325,0.012889,-0.026462,-0.00812,-0.015065,-0.003713,0.009648,0.00152,0.001508,-0.010255,0.013726,0.002226,-0.010723,-0.039403,0.006706
Iberia_Southeast_CA:I8365,0.1161,0.166547,0.041483 ,-0.049419,0.093556,-0.03263,-0.00423,0.001615,0.074038,0.085469,0.000812,0.0094 42,-0.024232,-0.012524,-0.006243,-0.001326,0.005346,-0.00266,0.00264,0.001251,0.007861,-0.006183,-0.016515,-0.027112,-0.003473
Iberia_Southeast_CA:I8566,0.126344,0.176702,0.0554 37,-0.02907,0.087401,-0.036814,-0.01034,0.009923,0.076901,0.089113,-0.010393,0.02278,-0.041328,-0.030415,0.002172,0.006895,-0.002999,-0.002534,-0.007416,5e-04,0.010731,0.000124,-0.013434,-0.035186,-0.004431
Iberia_Southeast_CA:I8569,0.126344,0.162485,0.0482 71,-0.034238,0.081554,-0.022869,0.002115,-0.003923,0.063198,0.088202,-0.000974,0.018284,-0.026313,-0.016515,-0.0057,0.014983,0.02373,0.010769,0.007793,-0.003377,0.008235,0.006677,-0.011092,-0.024823,0.000359
Iberia_Southeast_Meso:I10899,0.097888,0.059916,0.1 14268,0.14632,0.112944,0.030399,0.005405,0.017307, 0.089172,0.024784,-0.00747,-0.011989,0.008771,-0.010872,0.037866,0.045213,0.002217,0.012289,-0.00817,0.052025,0.084725,0.013725,-0.045725,-0.147129,0.019399
Iberia_Southeast_MLN:I7594,0.122929,0.17264,0.0392 21,-0.055233,0.070782,-0.020359,-0.002115,-0.002077,0.076287,0.092758,0.002923,0.011839,-0.030921,-0.01734,0.001493,0.006364,0.009388,0.003547,0.0026 4,-0.010255,0.01148,-0.000495,-0.023787,-0.029161,-0.00946
Iberia_Southeast_MLN:I7598,0.12862,0.170609,0.0411 06,-0.042636,0.07663,-0.021475,-0.012221,-0.004846,0.067084,0.095127,-0.005684,0.018733,-0.036719,-0.020231,-0.016015,-0.005304,-0.000913,-0.002914,0.005154,-0.004877,0.005116,0.000495,-0.015283,-0.034704,0.001916
Iberia_Southeast_MLN:I7600,0.124067,0.171624,0.046 763,-0.043605,0.084016,-0.03514,-0.007285,0.003692,0.07322,0.104786,0.000487,0.0230 79,-0.034787,0.001101,0.002172,-0.020021,-0.013169,0.003421,-0.002765,-0.005503,0.00549,-0.002226,-0.008258,-0.04097,-0.001557
Iberia_Southeast_MLN:I7601,0.1161,0.166547,0.04902 6,-0.028747,0.084323,-0.024542,-0.01034,0.001615,0.070561,0.094945,0.003897,0.0127 39,-0.024826,-0.003165,-0.008686,-0.019756,-0.014603,0.008868,0.004777,0.007629,0.011854,0.021 763,-0.025512,-0.040608,0.005149
Iberia_Southeast_MLN:I7642,0.134311,0.1635,0.04299 2,-0.043605,0.09571,-0.032072,-0.00329,0.001385,0.065652,0.102417,0.000974,0.0193 33,-0.037314,-0.017203,-0.002307,-0.002254,-0.002738,0.00266,-0.001257,-0.01063,0.015348,-0.000371,-0.009367,-0.037837,0.000239
Iberia_Southeast_MLN:I7644,0.126344,0.167562,0.048 649,-0.052003,0.087709,-0.036814,-0.00752,-0.001385,0.057471,0.082188,-0.000162,0.02218,-0.036422,-0.020919,-0.019815,0.015911,0.021122,0.005701,-0.001634,-0.003502,0.003119,0.009398,-0.012078,-0.040849,0.001676
Iberia_Southeast_MLN:I8568,0.130897,0.161469,0.052 797,-0.034884,0.087709,-0.022032,-0.00705,-0.003,0.070561,0.08802,0.003573,0.019033,-0.029583,-0.021744,-0.010043,0.001326,0.010561,-0.000507,0.006285,-0.005378,0.001996,-0.00136,-0.01861,-0.040247,0.005868
Iberia_Southwest_BA_Afr:I7162,0.103579,0.15436,0.0 43746,-0.005491,0.066782,-0.017849,-0.009635,0.001154,0.054403,0.054671,0.002923,0.004 046,-0.020664,-0.0139,0.008415,-0.007425,-0.00678,0.00114,-0.016089,-0.005253,0.002246,-0.005193,-0.008997,-0.02181,0.001916
Iberia_Southwest_BA:I10939,0.117238,0.144205,0.043 369,-0.014212,0.055395,-0.014223,0.00094,0.001846,0.047654,0.060685,-0.003735,0.007343,-0.018583,-0.014726,0.007329,0.007425,-0.001956,-0.006841,0,0.001251,0.018093,0.002349,-0.000863,-0.030486,0.002754
Iberia_Southwest_BA:I10941,0.122929,0.155376,0.057 699,-0.012597,0.072937,-0.01255,-0.004935,0.007615,0.044382,0.064147,-0.003735,0.017085,-0.027205,-0.011698,0.004614,-0.009016,-0.005607,-0.000887,0.003142,0.004877,0.01123,-0.000866,-0.014297,-0.022533,0.001676
Iberia_Southwest_CA:I11592,0.122929,0.164516,0.056 191,-0.025517,0.080938,-0.025379,-0.01034,0.002308,0.068106,0.099683,0.007795,0.0074 93,-0.035084,-0.014726,-0.00855,-0.00305,0.00352,0.000633,0.005028,-0.00963,0.002745,0.003091,-0.012325,-0.040006,0.006706
Iberia_Southwest_CA:I11599,0.111547,0.155376,0.052 043,-0.028424,0.091709,-0.02008,-0.008695,-0.002769,0.06872,0.101506,0.001624,0.013488,-0.02884,-0.015689,-0.005565,0.006629,0.008084,-0.004941,-0.006034,-0.002001,0.023833,0.015828,-0.01935,-0.041331,-0.002874
Iberia_Southwest_CA:I11600,0.126344,0.165531,0.059 208,-0.027455,0.089247,-0.022032,-0.0094,-0.002077,0.082014,0.12228,0.002436,0.023079,-0.048463,-0.032479,-0.020629,0.000398,0.02047,0.014442,0.003645,0.0051 27,0.02558,0.009274,-0.025882,-0.11098,0.027423
Iberia_Southwest_CA:I11605,0.127482,0.164516,0.056 945,-0.022287,0.084323,-0.023985,-0.002115,0.006461,0.06872,0.085469,-0.003248,0.01139,-0.037314,-0.018166,0.002307,0.007027,0.024903,-0.00228,-0.010182,0.008629,0.013851,0.012365,-0.022801,-0.037114,0.00479
Iberia_Southwest_CA:I11614,0.122929,0.173656,0.049 026,-0.040052,0.081554,-0.0251,-0.00282,0.004384,0.06463,0.091665,-0.003085,0.013638,-0.031665,-0.028075,0.000136,0.010077,0.019166,0.005448,0.003 897,0.003502,0.013227,0.003586,-0.013064,-0.041813,0.001676
Iberia_Southwest_CA:I3432,0.12862,0.167562,0.04978 ,-0.036822,0.08617,-0.029284,-0.00047,0.000231,0.063198,0.097496,-0.003085,0.017834,-0.033895,-0.010872,-0.009636,-0.00358,0.014994,0.003547,-0.002514,0.000375,0.007986,-0.007419,-0.017008,-0.0435,0.006347
Iberia_Southwest_CA:I5076,0.122929,0.171624,0.0584 54,-0.037468,0.078168,-0.020638,-0.004935,0.004846,0.061357,0.086562,-0.006983,0.012139,-0.031665,-0.012937,0.001221,-0.015115,-0.014994,-0.00152,-0.00088,-0.009505,0.015098,0.00136,-0.014913,-0.03868,0.002634
Iberia_Southwest_CA:I5428,0.130897,0.153345,0.0463 86,-0.027455,0.084631,-0.028168,-0.001645,-0.002308,0.063811,0.093123,0.007957,0.018883,-0.033895,-0.013625,-0.007872,0.006629,0.025034,0.005068,0.002388,0.003 502,0.01672,0.011129,-0.015529,-0.040126,0.001796
Iberia_Southwest_CA:I5429,0.125205,0.161469,0.0452 54,-0.033915,0.079399,-0.032072,-0.001175,-0.003461,0.062993,0.092758,0.004872,0.014087,-0.035381,-0.009358,-0.002714,-0.005171,-0.002999,0.004561,0.001006,-0.004377,0.015722,0.004946,-0.021815,-0.039644,0.005269
Iberia_Southwest_CA:I6601,0.122929,0.1635,0.0445,-0.037791,0.094171,-0.022311,-0.00235,0.000923,0.069334,0.095492,0.004384,0.0113 9,-0.027948,-0.016652,-0.007872,-0.012463,-0.009388,0.006208,0.005908,-0.006378,0.013351,0.004699,-0.01479,-0.039162,0.005389
Iberia_Southwest_EN:I10942,0.129758,0.165531,0.043 369,-0.062662,0.080015,-0.031515,-0.012456,0.007846,0.069129,0.094763,0.003735,0.018 733,-0.031665,-0.006055,-0.016558,-0.013789,-0.004042,0.010262,0.007039,-0.009755,0.001373,0.001237,-0.016638,-0.015183,0.002874
Iberia_Southwest_MLN:I7549,0.120652,0.170609,0.048 649,-0.051357,0.085862,-0.032909,-0.008225,-0.002769,0.070152,0.093669,0.007145,0.015586,-0.030327,-0.019955,-0.010722,-0.008884,0.019036,0.003167,0.005908,-0.004877,0.007612,0.001855,-0.009737,-0.045549,-0.007305
Iberia_Southwest_MLN:I7550,0.126344,0.159438,0.060 339,-0.024871,0.084016,-0.019522,-0.002115,0.006461,0.059721,0.084375,-0.005034,0.008542,-0.024083,-0.006468,0.003936,0.005967,-0.002738,0.007095,0.001006,-0.005628,0.024956,0.007914,-0.025636,-0.042657,0.005149
Iberia_Southwest_MLN:I8134,0.120652,0.164516,0.037 335,-0.046835,0.086478,-0.024542,-0.004465,-0.008769,0.068106,0.100959,0.00406,0.013488,-0.022448,-0.021332,-0.011401,0.014187,0.021253,0.004181,-0.005279,-0.00025,0.01722,0.007048,-0.017255,-0.04109,0.003233

Y el PCA con la herramienta que te comenté sería así:

https://i.imgur.com/3VjZf6d.png

No sé qué selección de esos samples has usado tú para hacer tu PCA , igual has usado averages.

Pero vamos, que lo que tú has hecho es un PCA, y mostraría una de las practicamente infinitas formas que tienen esas coordenadas de "plotear" según el criterio que hayas aplicado.

El caso es que sin saber exactamente a qué hace referencia cada coordenada del G25, no sabría muy bien decir que es lo que implica plotear de esa forma en ese PCA, salvo que el sample etiquetado como "africano" constituye un "outlier" respecto a los demás.

En realidad, los PCAs de estadística multivariante, suelen usar representaciones gráficas basadas en tres ejes en tres dimensiones ,osea representa puntos en el espacio y no sobre un plano como todos los que usamos en estos foros. Me despistó un poco ver que la mayoría de PCAs aquí suelen ser en dos dimensiones (aunque hay algunos que han posteado en 3D, pero no parecen ser tan "populares" como los de dos).

Hay una herramienta de Vahaduo, algo más compleja que la que puse el link, que permite hacer PCAs en 3D, pero su uso es algo complejo.

Mediante programas subordinados a R, sin necesidad de dominar laprogramación en R, se pueden hacer PCAs etc , pero hay que dedicarles tiempo porque algunas cosas no son del todo "intuitivas", y hay que cogerle el truco.

castrogonzalo
09-11-2021, 12:39 PM
Los samples individuales Ibéricos "antiguos" que hay ahora mismo en el G25 son éstos:

..

Y el PCA con la herramienta que te comenté sería así:

...

No sé qué selección de esos samples has usado tú para hacer tu PCA , igual has usado averages.

Pero vamos, que lo que tú has hecho es un PCA, y mostraría una de las practicamente infinitas formas que tienen esas coordenadas de "plotear" según el criterio que hayas aplicado.

El caso es que sin saber exactamente a qué hace referencia cada coordenada del G25, no sabría muy bien decir que es lo que implica plotear de esa forma en ese PCA, salvo que el sample etiquetado como "africano" constituye un "outlier" respecto a los demás.

En realidad, los PCAs de estadística multivariante, suelen usar representaciones gráficas basadas en tres ejes en tres dimensiones ,osea representa puntos en el espacio y no sobre un plano como todos los que usamos en estos foros. Me despistó un poco ver que la mayoría de PCAs aquí suelen ser en dos dimensiones (aunque hay algunos que han posteado en 3D, pero no parecen ser tan "populares" como los de dos).

Hay una herramienta de Vahaduo, algo más compleja que la que puse el link, que permite hacer PCAs en 3D, pero su uso es algo complejo.

Mediante programas subordinados a R, sin necesidad de dominar laprogramación en R, se pueden hacer PCAs etc , pero hay que dedicarles tiempo porque algunas cosas no son del todo "intuitivas", y hay que cogerle el truco.

Tendré que revisar si son los mismos que posteó Ajeje y no usé averages (esoqueé??) El "PCA" es directamente x1 la primera coordenada y x2 la segunda coordenada, tal cual. Una de las dudas mías era precisamente qué significaban cada una de las coordenadas. Eso permitiría usas sumas de coordenadas como componentes x1 o x2 (eso me pareció entenderte en otro post). Tres dimensiones, por ahora no voy a meterme. Más que profundizar en herramientas para PCA, estoy interesado en identificar una sencilla pero precisa para aplicarla a diferentes grupos de muestras.

mokordo
09-11-2021, 12:56 PM
Tendré que revisar si son los mismos que posteó Ajeje y no usé averages (esoqueé??) El "PCA" es directamente x1 la primera coordenada y x2 la segunda coordenada, tal cual. Una de las dudas mías era precisamente qué significaban cada una de las coordenadas. Eso permitiría usas sumas de coordenadas como componentes x1 o x2 (eso me pareció entenderte en otro post). Tres dimensiones, por ahora no voy a meterme. Más que profundizar en herramientas para PCA, estoy interesado en identificar una sencilla pero precisa para aplicarla a diferentes grupos de muestras.

Lo de las sumas de componentes en PCAs de calculadores de Gedmatch se puede hacer, porque sabemos a qué hace referencia cada coordenada (aproximadamente en algunos casos).

Lo tuyo deberían ser "averages" (promedios de muestras individuales bajo una misma etiqueta) o una selección de individuales, porque son bastante pocos en comparación con todos los que hay.

mokordo
09-11-2021, 01:02 PM
Me subes la moral con lo del PCA (voy a hacer como que no leí lo de "muy básico"). Lo hice por algunos posts tuyos que leí pero quería que me lo aseguraras. Como internamente yo me creía que era un PCA, lo primero que hice fue eliminar al outlier africano y después hice un gráfico con muestras divididas por períodos de 200 años:

46535

Se nota que con el tiempo, la componente 2 baja de valor. Por ahí voy.

Perdona, es que no había visto este, ahora veo que has usado solos las muestras de entre 3000-2000 ac. ¿No?

Pero a ver, que mis PCAs "caseros" son igual de básicos que los tuyos.

mokordo
09-11-2021, 01:27 PM
Los auténticos profesionales de todo esto, vendrán a leer estos foros sin registrarse, solo para reirse de nosotros.

Dirán: "Esta panda de desgraciados, no hacen más que dar palos de ciego, ni siquiera saben hacer un PCA en condiciones".

Nos verán como los jubilados que trabajaron de peón en una obra tres meses en su juventud, y se paraban en grupo en las obras del Guggenheim y se ponían a criticarlo "Ya ves tú el Gehry ese, un arquitecto de fama mundial, y no sabe construir un edificio con paredes rectas..."

Pero oye, ni tan mal, vamos aprendiendo cosillas, nos entretenemos, e igual de casualidad, en algún momento, queriendo o sin querer, logramos inspirar en algo a alguno de esos profesionales de todo esto que podrían leernos.:)

Si eso pasa y algún investigador obtiene alguna idea de nosotros, espero que en los agradecimientos de su tesis, estudio o artículo científico añada "agradecimientos también a todos los retrasados de AG, sin los cuales este trabajo habría sido posible igualemnte, pero me dieron al menos una idea buena sobre una cosilla".

mokordo
09-11-2021, 01:34 PM
Por cierto, si alguno quiere aprender más:


En ADNTRO nos tomamos muy en serio la educación y la divulgación científica. Es por ello que colaboramos con Genotipia para ofreceros un curso de genética + Kit de ADN con el que aprender genética con tu propio ADN.

Podrás aprender:

-Los tipos de variantes genéticas que existen en humanos, y sus mecanismos de patogenicidad y herencia.
-Los aspectos teóricos a partir de los cuáles se diseñan las pruebas.
-Los aspectos técnicos que permiten obtener, procesar, secuenciar y analizar una muestra de ADN.
-Los aspectos clínicos que, basándose en los resultados obtenidos en una prueba genética, permiten emitir un diagnóstico o promover una intervención médica precoz que pueda conducir a la eliminación o reducción de la mortalidad, morbilidad o discapacidades asociadas a esos resultados.
-Los aspectos legislativos, que regulan la actividad de las distintas empresas del sector.

Aunque ADNTRO no es la compañía que mejor fama tiene entre los foreros...

castrogonzalo
09-11-2021, 04:00 PM
Los auténticos profesionales de todo esto, vendrán a leer estos foros sin registrarse, solo para reirse de nosotros.

Dirán: "Esta panda de desgraciados, no hacen más que dar palos de ciego, ni siquiera saben hacer un PCA en condiciones".

Nos verán como los jubilados que trabajaron de peón en una obra tres meses en su juventud, y se paraban en grupo en las obras del Guggenheim y se ponían a criticarlo "Ya ves tú el Gehry ese, un arquitecto de fama mundial, y no sabe construir un edificio con paredes rectas..."

Pero oye, ni tan mal, vamos aprendiendo cosillas, nos entretenemos, e igual de casualidad, en algún momento, queriendo o sin querer, logramos inspirar en algo a alguno de esos profesionales de todo esto que podrían leernos.:)

Si eso pasa y algún investigador obtiene alguna idea de nosotros, espero que en los agradecimientos de su tesis, estudio o artículo científico añada "agradecimientos también a todos los retrasados de AG, sin los cuales este trabajo habría sido posible igualemnte, pero me dieron al menos una idea buena sobre una cosilla".

Tú eres un crack! y me das ánimo para seguir.

Mi idea en un primer paso es ver cómo cambió autosómicamente la población de Iberia durante 3000 BC a 1000 BC. Tengo excel que creo me pasaste tú que tiene 7 componentes: AnatoliaN-Admixture, IranN-Admixture, ANE-Admixture, WHG-Admixture BaikalEN_Admixture, Papuan-Admixture, y AfricaHG-Admixture. Como quiero "ver" la transición genética del calcolítico, voy a tomar como x1 la suma AN+WHG que estaba aquí desde que llegaron los anatolios, y como x2 la suma IranN+ANE+BaikalEN que era escasa antes y empieza a aparecer sobre 2500 BC. Ahí sí sabría interpretar qué componentes se mueven y en qué sentido. Ya iré poniendo resultados aquí y espero tus comentarios. Quiero hacer más cosas, pero vayamos partido a partido.

mokordo
09-11-2021, 04:57 PM
Tú eres un crack! y me das ánimo para seguir.

Mi idea en un primer paso es ver cómo cambió autosómicamente la población de Iberia durante 3000 BC a 1000 BC. Tengo excel que creo me pasaste tú que tiene 7 componentes: AnatoliaN-Admixture, IranN-Admixture, ANE-Admixture, WHG-Admixture BaikalEN_Admixture, Papuan-Admixture, y AfricaHG-Admixture. Como quiero "ver" la transición genética del calcolítico, voy a tomar como x1 la suma AN+WHG que estaba aquí desde que llegaron los anatolios, y como x2 la suma IranN+ANE+BaikalEN que era escasa antes y empieza a aparecer sobre 2500 BC. Ahí sí sabría interpretar qué componentes se mueven y en qué sentido. Ya iré poniendo resultados aquí y espero tus comentarios. Quiero hacer más cosas, pero vayamos partido a partido.

Yo tenía en mente algo parecido, pero esos componentes no me suena que sean míos.

Igual cogiendo los samples del calcolítico y los de la edad de bronce ibéricos, y ver como plotean puede añadir alguna pista.

Por otro lado, si tenemos un individuo del calcolítico, y tenemos un individuo del mismo lugar de la edad del bronce...podemos tratar de averiguar el individuo con el que se mezcló el del calcolítico para llegar a ser el del bronce...

Se me ocurre una forma gráfica y otra analítica (seguro que las dos son una mierda, así que lo haré en privado antes de fracasar estrepitosamente en público).

mokordo
09-11-2021, 05:00 PM
De todas formas, para caminos y métodos a seguir, yo usaría el foro alternativo de Xabi, porque aquí hay mucho cotilla, y luego nos copian ideas, métodos, coordenadas todo y ni nos dan las gracias.

mokordo
09-11-2021, 05:53 PM
La evolución aparente de lo pasó, se ve claro viendo la línea temporal de una zona, por ejemplo del norte de la península.


Iberia_North_MLN,0.1300429,0.1642619,0.069296,-0.0196222,0.0942868,-0.0192784,-0.0060512,0.0041826,0.0651152,0.0902069,-0.0032476,0.0134692,-0.0308842,-0.0175298,-0.0036982,0.0054198,0.008263,0.0004276,0.0001414,-0.0005314,0.0160184,0.0039721,-0.0140041,-0.0431538,0.0040265
Iberia_North_CA,0.1348802,0.168324,0.062885,-0.0266475,0.0865545,-0.0193132,-0.0029962,0.005769,0.0692312,0.095583,-0.0002842,0.0192202,-0.0335972,-0.0178565,-0.003393,-0.003878,0.0024448,0.0026602,3.15e-05,-0.0033765,0.0159715,0.002102,-0.0174085,-0.041211,0.0055382
Iberia_North_BA,0.1242568,0.154699,0.0555627,0.004 522,0.0679613,-0.002417,-0.0025068,0.0038458,0.0341553,0.0550352,-0.0043032,0.0096663,-0.0209117,-0.0154367,0.0064918,0.0047733,0.0091053,0.0049197,-0.0011732,-0.002522,0.0091712,0.0056468,-0.0093462,-0.0190388,0.003752
Iberia_North_IA,0.125205,0.1431895,0.065053,0.0114 665,0.058011,0.003347,-0.0034075,0.0045,0.026077,0.034989,-0.002192,0.0088425,-0.0169475,-0.0085325,0.0107215,6.65e-05,-0.008279,0.0008865,-0.000126,-0.00075,0.0082355,0.0023495,-0.0070865,-0.0118085,-0.0061075
Iberia_Modern_North,0.1236117,0.1476578,0.0497421, 0.0020672,0.0495476,-0.0034583,-0.000611,0.000877,0.0240111,0.0378322,-0.0068692,0.0086174,-0.0189989,-0.0126612,0.0114276,0.0019225,-0.0059585,-0.0001141,-0.0034943,-0.0038143,0.0077986,0.0006554,-0.0041904,-0.0021207,-0.0007785
Iberia_Modern_South,0.1081318,0.1460759,0.0357074,-0.003434,0.0452553,-0.0058567,-0.0019295,0.0026598,0.0247151,0.0311624,-0.0021538,0.0072724,-0.0132072,-0.0114083,0.0102433,-0.0024984,-0.0061762,-0.0011002,-0.0042604,-0.0021325,0.0029291,-0.0013016,-0.0019719,-0.0053334,0.0018844


Iberian Modern North y South son Norte de Burgos (del estudio Basques&Peri-basques) y Andalucía (del datasheet oficial).


Target: Iberia_North_MLN
Distance: 5.1898% / 0.05189754
71.0 TUR_Barcin_N
29.0 WHG

Target: Iberia_North_CA
Distance: 6.0107% / 0.06010737
73.4 TUR_Barcin_N
26.6 WHG

Target: Iberia_North_BA
Distance: 3.7598% / 0.03759819
60.8 TUR_Barcin_N
22.4 WHG
16.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: Iberia_North_IA
Distance: 4.2085% / 0.04208522
53.4 TUR_Barcin_N
26.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
20.0 WHG
0.2 MAR_Taforalt

Target: Iberia_Modern_North
Distance: 4.1477% / 0.04147697
56.4 TUR_Barcin_N
28.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
14.8 WHG
0.8 MAR_Taforalt

Target: Iberia_Modern_South
Distance: 3.2020% / 0.03201999
54.8 TUR_Barcin_N
28.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
12.0 WHG
4.6 MAR_Taforalt


Yo creo que se ve bien lo que pasa en cada paso , la sucesión estrictamente acabaría en Norte de Burgos, Andalucía está añadida solo para tener una referencia moderna del sur, ya que estrictamente Andalucía sería el paso final de South_Iberia_N>South_Iberia_CA>South_Iberia_BA>South_Iberia_IA>South_Iberia_Modern(Andalucía), y debería tener un PCA diferente (pero no tenemos las referencias adecuadas para completar la sucesión):

https://i.imgur.com/PGqhKtF.png

Edit:No escogí a los vascos como referencia de Iberian_North Modern por razones obvias, pero estarían entre BA/IA y la referencia del norte de Burgos.

castrogonzalo
09-11-2021, 06:49 PM
Yo tenía en mente algo parecido, pero esos componentes no me suena que sean míos.

Igual cogiendo los samples del calcolítico y los de la edad de bronce ibéricos, y ver como plotean puede añadir alguna pista.

Por otro lado, si tenemos un individuo del calcolítico, y tenemos un individuo del mismo lugar de la edad del bronce...podemos tratar de averiguar el individuo con el que se mezcló el del calcolítico para llegar a ser el del bronce...

Se me ocurre una forma gráfica y otra analítica (seguro que las dos son una mierda, así que lo haré en privado antes de fracasar estrepitosamente en público).

pero ... ¿y las risas que nos íbamos a echar?

castrogonzalo
09-11-2021, 06:51 PM
De todas formas, para caminos y métodos a seguir, yo usaría el foro alternativo de Xabi, porque aquí hay mucho cotilla, y luego nos copian ideas, métodos, coordenadas todo y ni nos dan las gracias.

está lleno de telarañas!

mokordo
09-11-2021, 07:52 PM
pero ... ¿y las risas que nos íbamos a echar?

Yo ya me estoy riendo, estaba intentando aplicar mi "método analítico" recién inventado para encontrar al individuo hipotético que se mezcló con el North Iberia CA para que diera el North Iberia BA, y resulta que le he quitado el "yamnaya" a esos dos.:biggrin1:

No se si sirven para algo, pero son dos tipos inventados muy curiosos. Estaba pensando que igual son útiles para algo ¿Queréis que os los presente?

Creo que lo he hecho al revés, en vez de aislar el "yamnaya" (o lo que fuera) he aislado el "no-yamnaya", osea básicamente un individuo neolítico Ibérico "hipotético".

Edit:Claro que sirve para algo, sirve para un modelo solo con Yamnaya y este individuo!!!

castrogonzalo
09-11-2021, 08:06 PM
Yo ya me estoy riendo, estaba intentando aplicar mi "método analítico" recién inventado para encontrar al individuo hipotético que se mezcló con el North Iberia CA para que diera el North Iberia BA, y resulta que le he quitado el "yamnaya" a esos dos.:biggrin1:

No se si sirven para algo, pero son dos tipos inventados muy curiosos. Estaba pensando que igual son útiles para algo ¿Queréis que os los presente?

Creo que lo he hecho al revés, en vez de aislar el "yamnaya" (o lo que fuera) he aislado el "no-yamnaya", osea básicamente un individuo neolítico Ibérico "hipotético".

Edit:Claro que sirve para algo, sirve para un modelo solo con Yamnaya y este individuo!!!

Tú vas muy avanzado, no puedo pillarte. Empiezo de cero y me llevará un tiempo. A ver si en unos días puedo tener algo medianamente decente para enseñar ...

mokordo
09-11-2021, 08:10 PM
Tú vas muy avanzado, no puedo pillarte. Empiezo de cero y me llevará un tiempo. A ver si en unos días puedo tener algo medianamente decente para enseñar ...

No me hagas caso, no sirven para nada, North Iberia CA no tenía yamnaya ya solo esa referencia servía para lo que dije.Además se lo he quitado a North Iberia BA...o yo que sé qué he hecho.

Mal todo, a volver a empezar. :biggrin1:

A partir del lunes vuelvo a tener bastante movimiento, así que no sé si podré dedicar mucha atención y tiempo a todo esto.

castrogonzalo
09-11-2021, 08:15 PM
No me hagas caso, no sirven para nada, North Iberia CA no tenía yamnaya ya solo esa referencia servía para lo que dije.Además se lo he quitado a North Iberia BA...o yo que sé qué he hecho.

Mal todo, a volver a empezar. :biggrin1:

A partir del lunes vuelvo a tener bastante movimiento, así que no sé si podré dedicar mucha atención y tiempo a todo esto.

Pues menuda faena. No voy a tener a nadie para darle la tabarra ... :argue:

mokordo
09-11-2021, 08:18 PM
El 1 prometía, el otro es un refrito después de ver que no tenía un yamanya puro (o algo parecido) , que es lo que se supone que debía haber conseguido.

https://i.imgur.com/7FNWsAo.png

mokordo
09-11-2021, 08:21 PM
Pues menuda faena. No voy a tener a nadie para darle la tabarra ... :argue:

Si hombre, por aquí siempre hay alguien.

Además yo entrar, entraré, pero menos y con menos dedicación.

Casi mejor, porque cuanto más tiempo dedico a estas cosas, peor me salen.

JJJ
09-12-2021, 05:15 PM
Los samples individuales Ibéricos "antiguos" que hay ahora mismo en el G25 son éstos:


Es interesante ver que el cúmulo de ibéricos modernos se encuentra en el medio entre los Iron Age y Southeast medievales con alta carga NA/M.Oriental.

castrogonzalo
09-15-2021, 06:59 PM
Si hombre, por aquí siempre hay alguien.

Además yo entrar, entraré, pero menos y con menos dedicación.

Casi mejor, porque cuanto más tiempo dedico a estas cosas, peor me salen.

Una gráfica chula. La subo también en el foro de Xavi y ya si eso lo vamos hablando ...

46594

castrogonzalo
09-16-2021, 07:13 PM
Una gráfica chula. La subo también en el foro de Xavi y ya si eso lo vamos hablando ...

46594

Ahora dos PCA con la misma información. Cambio genético entorno a 2500 BC con aumento de la componente ANE.
4660746608

El cambio empieza en 2700 BC, aumenta el ANE un individuo en Córdoba con haplogrupos mt=J e y=G.
En 2455 BC, el ANE lo aumenta una individua en Burgos con hg mt=K1.
En 2400 a 2200 BC, lo aumentan tres individuos: uno en 2350 BC, Asturias con hg mt=U5, hg y=P1, otro en 2250 BC, Madrid con hg mt=U5, hg y=P1, y la última en 2150 BC, Madrid con hg mt=H1.

De los que "tiran" para aumentar el ANE, ninguno tiene hg y=R1b-L51. Curioso.

mokordo
09-16-2021, 08:13 PM
Ahora dos PCA con la misma información. Cambio genético entorno a 2500 BC con aumento de la componente ANE.


hg mt=K1.

Dejando aparte el cambio de posiciiones , orientación etc respecto a lo que estamos acostumbrados a ver,el segundo se puede interpretar relativamente bien con el sentido que quieres darle, pero el primero resulta un poco complicado (al menos para mí), estaría bien poder saber qué sample es cada plot también..

¿Estás usando coordenadas del G25? Si es así puedes usar simplemente esto: https://vahaduo.github.io/g25views/#Europe1

¿Estás usando PLINK/PAST?

castrogonzalo
09-16-2021, 08:46 PM
Dejando aparte el cambio de posiciiones , orientación etc respecto a lo que estamos acostumbrados a ver,el segundo se puede interpretar relativamente bien con el sentido que quieres darle, pero el primero resulta un poco complicado (al menos para mí), estaría bien poder saber qué sample es cada plot también..


Yo estoy usando los datos de admixture que aparecen en una tabla que saqué de un enlace que me pasaste. Tiene 7 componentes que se ven en la figura del post de ayer. Anatolia N y ANE son los que escogí como PC1 y PC2. En el primer PCA todos los puntos de 4000 BC a 2800 BC se agrupan dentro del polígono rojo. Un conjunto homogéneo. Entre 2800 y 2600 BC, aparecen individuos que aportan más ANE y el polígono verde se estira y mueve, poco, hacia la esquina superior izquierda. Entre 2600 y 2400 BC, el estiramiento se hace más evidente (polígono azul). Entre 2400 y 2200 BC tenemos un conjunto heterogéneo con individuos de alto ANE y otros con alto Anatolia N. Finalmente, entre 2000 BC y 1800 BC se vuelve a un conjunto homogéneo, polígono rojo con triángulos, que se queda en una zona intermedia.

El fichero es all-ancient-dna-2-07-73-full.xlsx. Tiene 10.8 MB y más de 15000 restos humanos analizados en todo el mundo.

castrogonzalo
09-16-2021, 08:50 PM
¿Estás usando coordenadas del G25? Si es así puedes usar simplemente esto: https://vahaduo.github.io/g25views/#Europe1

¿Estás usando PLINK/PAST?

Como te dije, estoy usando datos del fichero excel, es muy completo. Las componentes son Anatolia N, Iran N, ANE, WHG, Baikal EN, Papuan y Africa HG. No creo que sean G25.

Estoy usando mathlab para las figuras.

castrogonzalo
09-18-2021, 05:56 AM
lo vamos hablando ...



Comparativa Iberia - Gran Bretaña:

46668

mokordo
09-18-2021, 08:44 AM
Comparativa Iberia - Gran Bretaña:



Base genética compartida o similar entre las islas y la península hasta el 2400 ac .

Continuidad genética (con matices) en la península Ibérica.

"Discontinuidad" en las islas británicas a partir de esa época por el aporte masivo de ANE e Iran N.

¿Eso se lee ahí?

castrogonzalo
09-18-2021, 12:32 PM
Base genética compartida o similar entre las islas y la península hasta el 2400 ac .

Continuidad genética (con matices) en la península Ibérica.

"Discontinuidad" en las islas británicas a partir de esa época por el aporte masivo de ANE e Iran N.

¿Eso se lee ahí?

Yo no lo habría dicho mejor. Mi opinión es que no hay discontinuidad en la península pero sí una deriva genética clara con disminución de la mezcla Anatolia N y aumento de la ANE. En los PCA de Iberia también se ve ese cambio entre 2800 y 2000 BC.
Algunas cosas que no aparecen:
1. Los cambios genéticos son coincidentes en el tiempo: 2450 BC, aproximadamente.
2. La población en Gran Bretaña era mucho menos numerosa que en Iberia. El cambio genético en una población numerosa (España tiene 1 millón en 2000 BC) no llega a ser tan grande como la discontinuidad que se observa en Inglaterra, con 50000 en la misma fecha.
3. De los que inician la deriva de aumento ANE en Iberia, hay dos machos que son hgy=P1 (¿de dónde son esta gente? No hay constancia de ellos anteriormente en Iberia) en 2350 y 2250 BC, y ninguno R1b-L51.
4. En Gran Bretaña el macho que aparece al inicio de la deriva (que es una clara discontinuidad) es R1b-Z251 en 2383 BC.
5. A primera vista, no parece que haya grandes cambios en los hg matrilineales (K1, U5 y H1 en Iberia y U5, V10 y HV0 en Gran Bretaña).
Creo que se pueden sacar más cosas, pero con éstas tenemos para entretenernos.

castrogonzalo
09-18-2021, 01:32 PM
De los dos individuos que están en el inicio de la deriva genética en Iberia, uno es de la costa de Asturias en 2350 BC. En mismo lugar y la misma fecha, otro individuo también contribuye al cambio y es R1b-P310 (R-L51>). Ninguno de los dos están asociados a la cultura campaniforme. Esto es compatible con la llegada de gente por mar, al igual que en Gran Bretaña, pero que no era Bell Beaker, a diferencia de los hijos de la Gran Bretaña.

Shadogowah
09-18-2021, 04:56 PM
Me parece a mí que ese P1 probablemente indica que no se ha podido rascar ningún SNP más moderno porque la muestra está hecha cisco.

P1 es el papá de Q y R.

Por lo demás, de acuerdo con lo que decís.

mokordo
09-18-2021, 05:04 PM
De todas formas ,¿Todo esto no es ya conocido y aceptado desde siempre? Es decir, todo esto conecta con la lógica "homogeneidad" genética de Europa occidental pre-indoeuropea, con el refugio de la población humana durante la última glaciación en zonas del sur de Europa (que sería un reinicio, si es que antes no había homogeneidad genética, y sí sé que es anterior por bastante a ese punto de inflexión del 2400 ac), , e incluso con el fenómeno megalítico y su distribución atlántica que llevó a la formulación de la teoría de la fachada atlántica.

¿Lo nuevo que se pretende "demostrar" serían dos aportes diferentes de "indoeuropeo" a la base genética >Europea (sobre todo occidental) uno proveniente de la península Ibérica (que sería anterior y vendría del mismo sitio que el siguiente) y otro proveniente directamente de las estepas?

¿Las dos culturas genéticamente aunque del mismo origen, se habrían distribuido por Europa hacia la misma época, una desde el sur y otra desde las estepas euroasiáticas, y la que se distribuyó partiendo de la península Ibérica y la otra serían similares genéticamente, o al menos compartirían un componente muy parecido?

No sé si me he liado, he malinterpretado la idea, o me lo he inventado todo...

castrogonzalo
09-18-2021, 06:09 PM
Me parece a mí que ese P1 probablemente indica que no se ha podido rascar ningún SNP más moderno porque la muestra está hecha cisco.

P1 es el papá de Q y R.

Eso encaja mejor en lo que yo pienso. :beerchug:


Por lo demás, de acuerdo con lo que decís.

Pues qué aburrimiento, no?, :biggrin1:

castrogonzalo
09-18-2021, 06:37 PM
De todas formas ,¿Todo esto no es ya conocido y aceptado desde siempre? Es decir, todo esto conecta con la lógica "homogeneidad" genética de Europa occidental pre-indoeuropea, con el refugio de la población humana durante la última glaciación en zonas del sur de Europa (que sería un reinicio, si es que antes no había homogeneidad genética, y sí sé que es anterior por bastante a ese punto de inflexión del 2400 ac), , e incluso con el fenómeno megalítico y su distribución atlántica que llevó a la formulación de la teoría de la fachada atlántica.

¿Lo nuevo que se pretende "demostrar" serían dos aportes diferentes de "indoeuropeo" a la base genética >Europea (sobre todo occidental) uno proveniente de la península Ibérica (que sería anterior y vendría del mismo sitio que el siguiente) y otro proveniente directamente de las estepas?

¿Las dos culturas genéticamente aunque del mismo origen, se habrían distribuido por Europa hacia la misma época, una desde el sur y otra desde las estepas euroasiáticas, y la que se distribuyó partiendo de la península Ibérica y la otra serían similares genéticamente, o al menos compartirían un componente muy parecido?

No sé si me he liado, he malinterpretado la idea, o me lo he inventado todo...

Yo no sé si te servirá la opinión de alguien que puede estar más liado, malinterpretando o inventando cosas.
Lo que yo quiero es poner resultados de datos reales. Personalmente pienso que la hipótesis más verosímil es la de la entrada en Iberia de gente R1b procedente del centro o este de Europa. Me parece que hoy por hoy se ha asentado la idea que no son yamnaya de las estepas ucranianas (no son R1b-Z2103), pero recuerda que yo no soy experto. El aporte Ibérico "indoeuropeo" a la base genética de Europa, para mí está por ver. Si se demuestra, brindaré con vino de Toro (de la tierra, Zamora).

Lo que sí estoy tratando de comprobar la posibilidad de llegada por mar de esos R1b del centro-este de Europa con lenguaje indoeuropeo. También que en Iberia se encontraron con la cultura del campaniforme, no así en Gran Bretaña donde entraron con esa cultura.

Tengo la impresión de que en muchos foros Iberia es invisible en genética, cultura y lingüística prehistórica. Y te pongo un ejemplo, sacado de la wiki:
"The regional Bronze Age succeeds the Neolithic. It starts with the Aegean Bronze Age in 3200 BC (succeeded by the Beaker culture)" ... whaaat ??? En Iberia la BB es de la edad del cobre y anterior a la edad del bronce. Se habla también de R1b y gente BB como si fueran sinónimos, y eso es cierto en Gran Bretaña pero en Iberia los BB son desde neolíticos hasta R1b-indoeuropeos.

Shadogowah
09-18-2021, 06:53 PM
Yo no sé si te servirá la opinión de alguien que puede estar más liado, malinterpretando o inventando cosas.
Lo que yo quiero es poner resultados de datos reales. Personalmente pienso que la hipótesis más verosímil es la de la entrada en Iberia de gente R1b procedente del centro o este de Europa. Me parece que hoy por hoy se ha asentado la idea que no son yamnaya de las estepas ucranianas (no son R1b-Z2103), pero recuerda que yo no soy experto. El aporte Ibérico "indoeuropeo" a la base genética de Europa, para mí está por ver. Si se demuestra, brindaré con vino de Toro (de la tierra, Zamora).

Lo que sí estoy tratando de comprobar la posibilidad de llegada por mar de esos R1b del centro-este de Europa con lenguaje indoeuropeo. También que en Iberia se encontraron con la cultura del campaniforme, no así en Gran Bretaña donde entraron con esa cultura.

Tengo la impresión de que en muchos foros Iberia es invisible en genética, cultura y lingüística prehistórica. Y te pongo un ejemplo, sacado de la wiki:
"The regional Bronze Age succeeds the Neolithic. It starts with the Aegean Bronze Age in 3200 BC (succeeded by the Beaker culture)" ... whaaat ??? En Iberia la BB es de la edad del cobre y anterior a la edad del bronce. Se habla también de R1b y gente BB como si fueran sinónimos, y eso es cierto en Gran Bretaña pero en Iberia los BB son desde neolíticos hasta R1b-indoeuropeos.

Exacto. Si a todo.

castrogonzalo
09-18-2021, 07:02 PM
De todas formas , ...

Como apoyo a la entrada de gente con cultura centro-europea, en la página

https://atlas-innovations.de/de/wheeled-vehicles?state=%7B%22mapZoom%22%3A%5B2.035836%5D%2 C%22mapCenter%22%3A%5B57.617%2C43.59711%5D%2C%22in novationId%22%3Anull%2C%22timeRange%22%3A%5B-4000%2C2000%5D%2C%22filters%22%3A%7B%7D%2C%22compa re%22%3A%7B%7D%2C%22binTicks%22%3A30%7D

se puede ver que los primeros petroglifos de vehículos con ruedas aparecen alrededor de 2000 BC, ¿sabes dónde? ... en Galicia. Una entrada lógica por tierra sería Guipuzcoa o Gerona, pero ahí no hay constancia. Rrharrho, rrharrho, ...

Shadogowah
09-18-2021, 07:02 PM
De todas formas ,¿Todo esto no es ya conocido y aceptado desde siempre? Es decir, todo esto conecta con la lógica "homogeneidad" genética de Europa occidental pre-indoeuropea, con el refugio de la población humana durante la última glaciación en zonas del sur de Europa (que sería un reinicio, si es que antes no había homogeneidad genética, y sí sé que es anterior por bastante a ese punto de inflexión del 2400 ac), , e incluso con el fenómeno megalítico y su distribución atlántica que llevó a la formulación de la teoría de la fachada atlántica.

¿Lo nuevo que se pretende "demostrar" serían dos aportes diferentes de "indoeuropeo" a la base genética >Europea (sobre todo occidental) uno proveniente de la península Ibérica (que sería anterior y vendría del mismo sitio que el siguiente) y otro proveniente directamente de las estepas?

¿Las dos culturas genéticamente aunque del mismo origen, se habrían distribuido por Europa hacia la misma época, una desde el sur y otra desde las estepas euroasiáticas, y la que se distribuyó partiendo de la península Ibérica y la otra serían similares genéticamente, o al menos compartirían un componente muy parecido?

No sé si me he liado, he malinterpretado la idea, o me lo he inventado todo...

Es mi impresión personal que hay un par de cosas por las que los Anglos suelen pasar de puntillas:

1) Que los cabestros indoeuropeos barren a la población nativa de las islas pero en Iberia se produce una fuerte hibridación (algo parecido a lo que ocurrirá milenios más tarde con la colonización de América).

2) La sistemática minimización del componente WHG de los ibéricos. Las gráficas que nos trae Castrogonzalo hablan por sí mismas.

mokordo
09-19-2021, 07:15 PM
Supongo que esto ya lo conocíais, pero por si acaso, son los samples antiguos que hay en Yfull (1768 ahora mismo):

http://https://www.yfull.com/ancient/

Edit: Vienen links de los estudios, y la lista de los samples de cada estudio (en algunos solo hay uno solo, o cientos, depende del estudio), eso es aún más útil que la propia lista de individuos antiguos y sus correspondientes Y-dna´s.

castrogonzalo
09-20-2021, 03:42 PM
Supongo que esto ya lo conocíais, pero por si acaso, son los samples antiguos que hay en Yfull (1768 ahora mismo):

http://https://www.yfull.com/ancient/

Edit: Vienen links de los estudios, y la lista de los samples de cada estudio (en algunos solo hay uno solo, o cientos, depende del estudio), eso es aún más útil que la propia lista de individuos antiguos y sus correspondientes Y-dna´s.

Te he enviado un enlace por email. Por si te animas a verlo y me das tu opinión.

castrogonzalo
09-21-2021, 04:21 PM
Supongo que esto ya lo conocíais, pero por si acaso,

Lo último que he hecho es identificar la fecha de los primeros contribuyentes al aumento del ANE en Alemania y Francia. Con la figura de las mezclas se ve claramente. Después he buscado los individuos de Alemania que aparecieron en un intervalo corto, unos 200 años, y los he dibujado en un mapa de Europa. Lo mismo para Francia. El mapa es:

46726

Los primeros enterrados en Alemania están cerca de la frontera este, no son campaniformes y no me parece que tengan Y-DNA relacionado con Iberia. Los primeros enterrados en Francia también están cerca de la frontera este, son campaniformes y están más relacionados con nuestra genética. Hay también una posible segunda entrada por la frontera sur, pero habría que verlo en más detalle.