PDA

View Full Version : De 4000 BC a 1000 BC de prehistoria en la península Ibérica (siglo más, siglo menos)



castrogonzalo
06-15-2021, 10:57 AM
Hola. Inicio este hilo para continuar una conversación que se inició en el de "Resultados de ibéricos" y que se quedaba un poco fuera. El título explica el objetivo y busco que alguien pueda aclarar una etapa que se conoce solo a través de la arqueología y la genética, campos en los que yo no soy experto.

castrogonzalo
06-15-2021, 11:11 AM
Incluyo aquí el post que publiqué en el otro hilo:

Mi motivación está dada por la duda que me asaltó cuando me enseñaron hace muuuchos años que "los celtas vinieron del norte, los íberos del sur y se mezclaron en el centro para formar los celtíberos". Después me he enterado del refugio Cántabro-Pirenaico, de la llegada por el Mediterráneo de los granjeros de Anatolia, y del cambio genético que introdujeron los estepeños R1b (supuestamente, que me temo que esta es una posible peleíta), como antecedentes para el escenario que se encontraron los griegos, cartagineses y romanos cuando llegaron a la península. Se necesitan respuestas para entender porqué conviven una cultura indoeuropea y celta y otra íbera no indoeuropea, porqué el DF-27 (supuestamente estepeño* indoeuropeo) surge en el NE de la península, zona íbera y es mayoritario en el País Vasco que no es de lengua indoeuropea. ¡Muchas cosas que comentar!"

(*PS: Lo de estepeño es una broma porque aquí en Andalucía tenemos los marismeños y los sabandeños, jaja! Lo correcto es estepario.)

castrogonzalo
06-15-2021, 11:47 AM
y la respuesta de alejandromb92:

"El DF27 es efectivamente un haplogrupo de origen indo-europeo, pero no surge en la peninsula, siendo el DF27 mas antiguo hasta ahora uno encontrado en Alemania, no recuerdo si era una de las primeras muestras de Vaso Campaniforme. Cuando el DF27 llega aqui a la peninsula, llegaba incluso con 1 a 2 mutaciones por delante.

Lo que si me es curioso es la cantidad abismal de ingleses con DF27, de los cuales yo pienso que la mayoria son de origen peninsular por las rutas maritimas que tenia la cultura del Vaso Campaniforme y porque todos tienen los mismos clados de los ibericos, sobretodo de los españoles.
"

Yo conozco el artículo de Nature "Analysis of the R1b-DF27 haplogroup shows that a large fraction of IberianY-chromosome lineages originated recently in situ" de Solé-Morata, que plantea el surgimiento del DF-27 en el NE de la península. Es de 2017, si conoces el artículo científico posterior que corrige esto, el del DF-27 alemán más antiguo, te agradecería que me lo indicaras. Hay que tener en cuenta que, más que la antigüedad, la diversidad genética es determinante para el origen.

Los orígenes de la cerámica campaniforme también tiene una gran relación y es tema de debate (y peleítas, jaja!). Para mí, surge en el estuario del Tajo, en la península.

Shadogowah
06-15-2021, 12:14 PM
y la respuesta de alejandromb92:

"El DF27 es efectivamente un haplogrupo de origen indo-europeo, pero no surge en la peninsula, siendo el DF27 mas antiguo hasta ahora uno encontrado en Alemania, no recuerdo si era una de las primeras muestras de Vaso Campaniforme. Cuando el DF27 llega aqui a la peninsula, llegaba incluso con 1 a 2 mutaciones por delante.

Lo que si me es curioso es la cantidad abismal de ingleses con DF27, de los cuales yo pienso que la mayoria son de origen peninsular por las rutas maritimas que tenia la cultura del Vaso Campaniforme y porque todos tienen los mismos clados de los ibericos, sobretodo de los españoles.
"

Yo conozco el artículo de Nature "Analysis of the R1b-DF27 haplogroup shows that a large fraction of IberianY-chromosome lineages originated recently in situ" de Solé-Morata, que plantea el surgimiento del DF-27 en el NE de la península. Es de 2017, si conoces el artículo científico posterior que corrige esto, el del DF-27 alemán más antiguo, te agradecería que me lo indicaras. Hay que tener en cuenta que, más que la antigüedad, la diversidad genética es determinante para el origen.

Los orígenes de la cerámica campaniforme también tiene una gran relación y es tema de debate (y peleítas, jaja!). Para mí, surge en el estuario del Tajo, en la península.

Todo esto es bastante conocido ya desde hace unos años.

I0806 Quedlinburg DF27 2290 BC (2431-2150 calBC) Se trata de un enterramiento Bell Beaker con elementos de cerámica cordada.

Luego aparecieron un par de muestras en Sicilia como mucho a un par de siglos de distancia. Podrían ser contenporáneas.

I8561 Isnello (Abisso del Vento), (2346-2199 calBCE)
I3123 Buffa Cave (Villafrati), (2287-2044 calBCE)

En mi opinión es más que probable que ya hubiera DF27 en España durante el mismo periodo pero desgraciadamente las muestras no permiten llegar tan lejos y solo sabemos que eran R1b-M269, pero no se ha podido confirmar si eran DF27.

Conectando de nuevo con una respuesta anterior, el fenómeno Bell Beaker es un fenómeno cultural y los primeros Bell Beaker ibéricos NO TIENEN haplogrupos indoeuropeos y suy perfil genético es distinto. Pero rápidamente son reemplazados por los llegados del este.

castrogonzalo
06-15-2021, 12:56 PM
Otra cuestión:

Para mí, que soy un amateur, me resulta chocante que el vaso campaniforme más antiguo esté datado en 2750 BC en el estuario del Tajo, eso es un hecho científico, y sin embargo se hable de los bell beakers como si no tuvieran relación con la península!

alejandromb92
06-15-2021, 01:00 PM
y la respuesta de alejandromb92:

"El DF27 es efectivamente un haplogrupo de origen indo-europeo, pero no surge en la peninsula, siendo el DF27 mas antiguo hasta ahora uno encontrado en Alemania, no recuerdo si era una de las primeras muestras de Vaso Campaniforme. Cuando el DF27 llega aqui a la peninsula, llegaba incluso con 1 a 2 mutaciones por delante.

Lo que si me es curioso es la cantidad abismal de ingleses con DF27, de los cuales yo pienso que la mayoria son de origen peninsular por las rutas maritimas que tenia la cultura del Vaso Campaniforme y porque todos tienen los mismos clados de los ibericos, sobretodo de los españoles.
"

Yo conozco el artículo de Nature "Analysis of the R1b-DF27 haplogroup shows that a large fraction of IberianY-chromosome lineages originated recently in situ" de Solé-Morata, que plantea el surgimiento del DF-27 en el NE de la península. Es de 2017, si conoces el artículo científico posterior que corrige esto, el del DF-27 alemán más antiguo, te agradecería que me lo indicaras. Hay que tener en cuenta que, más que la antigüedad, la diversidad genética es determinante para el origen.

Los orígenes de la cerámica campaniforme también tiene una gran relación y es tema de debate (y peleítas, jaja!). Para mí, surge en el estuario del Tajo, en la península.

Me malacostumbre a decir que el DF27 lo trajo la cultura del Vaso Campaniforme, cuando en realidad quiero decir Campo de Urnas. No veo como es posible que un clado muy por debajo del L51 pudo extenderse desde el Oeste y no desde el Este con los Ceramica Cordada, me parece muy poco probable. Lo que si creo es que el DF27, habiendo llegado previamente con Campo de Urnas, se extiende por Francia e Inglaterra desde España con Vaso Campaniforme, eso si lo veo mas viable.

Indico la muestra mas antigua DF27 hasta ahora: I0806. En efecto, es una de Vaso Campaniforme.

Como dato curioso, aqui en este mismo foro hay un simpatico usuario polaco que tiene DF27 y un clado siguiente muy extraño que al parecer solo es comun en su zona, lo que podria indicar que ese DF27 paso por ahi y alguno que otro se quedo.

Shadogowah
06-15-2021, 01:07 PM
Otra cuestión:

Para mí, que soy un amateur, me resulta chocante que el vaso campaniforme más antiguo esté datado en 2750 BC en el estuario del Tajo, eso es un hecho científico, y sin embargo se hable de los bell beakers como si no tuvieran relación con la península!

El vaso campaniforme, aun siendo quizás el elemento más representativo, es solo uno más del pack. Es perfectamente posible que como elemento cultural la idea viajase de occidente a oriente mientras que el flujo démico ocurriese al revés. Piensa en el hábito de fumar o comer chocolate respecto a la colonización de América.

castrogonzalo
06-15-2021, 01:12 PM
Todo esto es bastante conocido ya desde hace unos años.

I0806 Quedlinburg DF27 2290 BC (2431-2150 calBC) Se trata de un enterramiento Bell Beaker con elementos de cerámica cordada.

Luego aparecieron un par de muestras en Sicilia como mucho a un par de siglos de distancia. Podrían ser contenporáneas.

I8561 Isnello (Abisso del Vento), (2346-2199 calBCE)
I3123 Buffa Cave (Villafrati), (2287-2044 calBCE)

En mi opinión es más que probable que ya hubiera DF27 en España durante el mismo periodo pero desgraciadamente las muestras no permiten llegar tan lejos y solo sabemos que eran R1b-M269, pero no se ha podido confirmar si eran DF27.

Conectando de nuevo con una respuesta anterior, el fenómeno Bell Beaker es un fenómeno cultural y los primeros Bell Beaker ibéricos NO TIENEN haplogrupos indoeuropeos y suy perfil genético es distinto. Pero rápidamente son reemplazados por los llegados del este.

Hay algo que no me cuadra. En la tabla 3 del artículo que puse arriba, la edad del DF 27 en Aragón es 4527 ya. Eso lo data con anterioridad al I0806 2290 BC no?

mokordo
06-15-2021, 01:13 PM
Aquí están las hojas de cálculo del estudio de Olalde, con todos los haplotipos de las muestras antiguas del estudio, aparte de código de las muestras, yacimiento,época o cultura histórica asignada, etc.. ( S1):

https://science.sciencemag.org/highwire/filestream/724016/field_highwire_adjunct_files/2/aav4040_TablesS1-S5.xlsx

Más que nada, para que os la podáis descargar si no las tenéis ya, viene bien tenerlas a mano para consultarlas.

Shadogowah
06-15-2021, 01:33 PM
Hay algo que no me cuadra. En la tabla 3 del artículo que puse arriba, la edad del DF 27 en Aragón es 4527 ya. Eso lo data con anterioridad al I0806 2290 BC no?

A ver, que estás mezclando churras con merinas.

Ese paper es un estudio sobre la distribución de clados de DF27 en población ACTUAL. No tiene nada que ver con muestras antiguas.

La tabla lo que te pone es la edad estimada de los diferentes haplogrupos. Es un cálculo estadísitico de cuando se cree que la mutación apareció (analizando las muestras modernas!).

Aquí estamos hablando de Carbono14 a muestras reales. A señores muertos hace cuatro mil años que tenían el haplogrupo DF27.

Analizando DF27 de señores de Aragón puedes llegar a la conclusión de que el DF27 del que descienden los señores de Aragón nació hace 4527 años, pero no sabes donde.

El señor de Quedlimburg que se enterró hace casi cuatro mil y pico de años quizás era el tataranieto del patriarca de los aragoneses o a lo mejor forma parte de otra rama, pero es un muerto REAL, no un ancestro hipotético en base a cálculos estadísticos.

castrogonzalo
06-15-2021, 02:04 PM
A ver, que estás mezclando churras con merinas.

Ese paper es un estudio sobre la distribución de clados de DF27 en población ACTUAL. No tiene nada que ver con muestras antiguas.

La tabla lo que te pone es la edad estimada de los diferentes haplogrupos. Es un cálculo estadísitico de cuando se cree que la mutación apareció (analizando las muestras modernas!).

Aquí estamos hablando de Carbono14 a muestras reales. A señores muertos hace cuatro mil años que tenían el haplogrupo DF27.

Analizando DF27 de señores de Aragón puedes llegar a la conclusión de que el DF27 del que descienden los señores de Aragón nació hace 4527 años, pero no sabes donde.

El señor de Quedlimburg que se enterró hace casi cuatro mil y pico de años quizás era el tataranieto del patriarca de los aragoneses o a lo mejor forma parte de otra rama, pero es un muerto REAL, no un ancestro hipotético en base a cálculos estadísticos.

Gracias por la aclaración. Efectivamente, el artículo al que hice referencia no muestra datos de muestras antiguas y, como dices, hay que deducir que el DF-27 no surge en la península.

Pues vaya decepción! Se me ha caído el mito del Adán ibérico ... jaja.

Shadogowah
06-15-2021, 02:20 PM
Gracias por la aclaración. Efectivamente, el artículo al que hice referencia no muestra datos de muestras antiguas y, como dices, hay que deducir que el DF-27 no surge en la península.

Pues vaya decepción! Se me ha caído el mito del Adán ibérico ... jaja.

Quizás lo fue. No lo sabemos con certeza.

De todas formas si no lo fue, no debió andar muy lejos. Seguramente el primer Df27 ya nació en Europa.

mokordo
06-15-2021, 02:49 PM
Analysis of the R1b-DF27 haplogroup shows that a large fraction of Iberian Y-chromosome lineages originated recently in situ


Haplogroup R1b-M269 comprises most Western European Y chromosomes; of its main branches, R1b-DF27 is by far the least known, and it appears to be highly prevalent only in Iberia. We have genotyped 1072 R1b-DF27 chromosomes for six additional SNPs and 17 Y-STRs in population samples from Spain, Portugal and France in order to further characterize this lineage and, in particular, to ascertain the time and place where it originated, as well as its subsequent dynamics.

We found that R1b-DF27 is present in frequencies ~40% in Iberian populations and up to 70% in Basques, but it drops quickly to 6–20% in France. Overall, the age of R1b-DF27 is estimated at ~4,200 years ago, at the transition between the Neolithic and the Bronze Age, when the Y chromosome landscape of W Europe was thoroughly remodeled.

In spite of its high frequency in Basques, Y-STR internal diversity of R1b-DF27 is lower there, and results in more recent age estimates; NE Iberia is the most likely place of origin of DF27. Subhaplogroup frequencies within R1b-DF27 are geographically structured, and show domains that are reminiscent of the pre-Roman Celtic/Iberian division, or of the medieval Christian kingdoms.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5544771/

A mí la verdad es que no me afecta todo esto, como yo soy R1a...B)

castrogonzalo
06-15-2021, 04:25 PM
https://i.imgur.com/NBzgOY8.gif

:biggrin1:

castrogonzalo
06-15-2021, 04:39 PM
Quizás lo fue. No lo sabemos con certeza.

De todas formas si no lo fue, no debió andar muy lejos. Seguramente el primer Df27 ya nació en Europa.

Entonces podríamos decir que es posible que haya surgido en el NE de la península, pero con los datos que se tienen lo probable es que haya surgido en (o cerca de) Alemania.

Shadogowah
06-17-2021, 07:39 AM
Entonces podríamos decir que es posible que haya surgido en el NE de la península, pero con los datos que se tienen lo probable es que haya surgido en (o cerca de) Alemania.

El primer DF27 podría haber nacido en cualquier parte y su papá habérselo traído hasta los Pirineos montado en un caballo. Esta gente tenía una enorme movilidad y los 500 años más o menos que tenemos de margen dan pie a cualquier posibilidad. Lo que si parece claro es que fue en el occidente europeo donde él y sus descendientes encontraron muchas mocitas casaderas con las que tener muchos niños y hacer felices a los abuelos.

alejandromb92
06-17-2021, 07:52 AM
Haciendo un calculo bastante vago, el primer DF27 podria haber nacido a las alturas del rio Vistula, o un poquillo antes. Esta muy dificil de determinar exactamente donde pero yo creo que los tiros van por ahi.

alejandromb92
06-17-2021, 08:26 AM
Bueno habra que hablar de vez en cuando sobre el L21, donde estan esos machos ibericos con L21 hombre, hagamos representacion por aqui que terminamos en la seccion de los guiris y estos son mas sosos que un bocadillo de pipas. Tambien podriamos hablar sobre el clado de nuestro querido zamorano, no se si ya has utilizado el tool de YSEQ para ver si te arroja algun resultado que LivingDNA no te este dando.

castrogonzalo
06-17-2021, 11:25 AM
Bueno habra que hablar de vez en cuando sobre el L21, donde estan esos machos ibericos con L21 hombre, hagamos representacion por aqui que terminamos en la seccion de los guiris y estos son mas sosos que un bocadillo de pipas. Tambien podriamos hablar sobre el clado de nuestro querido zamorano, no se si ya has utilizado el tool de YSEQ para ver si te arroja algun resultado que LivingDNA no te este dando.

He utilizado una página que me pasó mokordo y me ploteé aquí:

45203

Ajeje Brazorf
06-17-2021, 11:58 AM
Si puede ayudar al hilo, todas estas son muestras de Global25 de la Península Ibérica datadas entre el 4000 y el 1000 a.C:



Scaled G25
Date


Iberia_Southwest_MLN:I7549,0.120652,0.170609,0.048 649,-0.051357,0.085862,-0.032909,-0.008225,-0.002769,0.070152,0.093669,0.007145,0.015586,-0.030327,-0.019955,-0.010722,-0.008884,0.019036,0.003167,0.005908,-0.004877,0.007612,0.001855,-0.009737,-0.045549,-0.007305
-4000


Iberia_MN:I0408,0.122929,0.170609,0.054305,-0.035207,0.089555,-0.017012,-0.008695,-0.001154,0.065243,0.09859,-0.005196,0.012589,-0.029435,-0.018579,-0.01045,0.001061,0.012778,0.006208,0,-0.004502,0.019216,0.002102,-0.019103,-0.039524,0.000958
-3773


Iberia_MN:I0405,0.1161,0.162485,0.057699,-0.038114,0.082477,-0.024821,-0.002585,-0.000231,0.067084,0.08638,0.000974,0.016186,-0.038652,-0.020368,-0.003529,0.000928,0.013038,-0.003674,-0.006285,-0.004752,0.018842,0.008037,-0.013927,-0.0435,0.000958
-3750


Iberia_MN:I0406,0.124067,0.156392,0.050911,-0.033592,0.082477,-0.014781,-0.010105,0.003692,0.063198,0.087656,-0.00341,0.008093,-0.024826,-0.015138,-0.007465,-0.00716,-0.00352,0.006461,0.000503,-0.005753,0.015972,0.004822,-0.014666,-0.035186,0.009819
-3750


Iberia_MN:I0407,0.121791,0.161469,0.046386,-0.027455,0.086785,-0.029284,-0.018096,-0.006461,0.061766,0.096585,-0.004384,0.018583,-0.038503,-0.008808,-0.011265,0.003845,0.021513,0.007981,0.000754,-0.006753,0.018717,0.003586,-0.014543,-0.044103,-0.002036
-3750


Iberia_Southeast_MLN:I7600,0.124067,0.171624,0.046 763,-0.043605,0.084016,-0.03514,-0.007285,0.003692,0.07322,0.104786,0.000487,0.0230 79,-0.034787,0.001101,0.002172,-0.020021,-0.013169,0.003421,-0.002765,-0.005503,0.00549,-0.002226,-0.008258,-0.04097,-0.001557
-3675


Iberia_Southeast_MLN:I7601,0.1161,0.166547,0.04902 6,-0.028747,0.084323,-0.024542,-0.01034,0.001615,0.070561,0.094945,0.003897,0.0127 39,-0.024826,-0.003165,-0.008686,-0.019756,-0.014603,0.008868,0.004777,0.007629,0.011854,0.021 763,-0.025512,-0.040608,0.005149
-3590


Iberia_Southeast_MLN:I7644,0.126344,0.167562,0.048 649,-0.052003,0.087709,-0.036814,-0.00752,-0.001385,0.057471,0.082188,-0.000162,0.02218,-0.036422,-0.020919,-0.019815,0.015911,0.021122,0.005701,-0.001634,-0.003502,0.003119,0.009398,-0.012078,-0.040849,0.001676
-3510


Iberia_Southeast_MLN:I7598,0.12862,0.170609,0.0411 06,-0.042636,0.07663,-0.021475,-0.012221,-0.004846,0.067084,0.095127,-0.005684,0.018733,-0.036719,-0.020231,-0.016015,-0.005304,-0.000913,-0.002914,0.005154,-0.004877,0.005116,0.000495,-0.015283,-0.034704,0.001916
-3500


Iberia_Southeast_MLN:I7594,0.122929,0.17264,0.0392 21,-0.055233,0.070782,-0.020359,-0.002115,-0.002077,0.076287,0.092758,0.002923,0.011839,-0.030921,-0.01734,0.001493,0.006364,0.009388,0.003547,0.0026 4,-0.010255,0.01148,-0.000495,-0.023787,-0.029161,-0.00946
-3440


Iberia_Southeast_MLN:I8568,0.130897,0.161469,0.052 797,-0.034884,0.087709,-0.022032,-0.00705,-0.003,0.070561,0.08802,0.003573,0.019033,-0.029583,-0.021744,-0.010043,0.001326,0.010561,-0.000507,0.006285,-0.005378,0.001996,-0.00136,-0.01861,-0.040247,0.005868
-3425


Iberia_Southwest_CA:I5428,0.130897,0.153345,0.0463 86,-0.027455,0.084631,-0.028168,-0.001645,-0.002308,0.063811,0.093123,0.007957,0.018883,-0.033895,-0.013625,-0.007872,0.006629,0.025034,0.005068,0.002388,0.003 502,0.01672,0.011129,-0.015529,-0.040126,0.001796
-3226


Iberia_Southwest_CA:I5076,0.122929,0.171624,0.0584 54,-0.037468,0.078168,-0.020638,-0.004935,0.004846,0.061357,0.086562,-0.006983,0.012139,-0.031665,-0.012937,0.001221,-0.015115,-0.014994,-0.00152,-0.00088,-0.009505,0.015098,0.00136,-0.014913,-0.03868,0.002634
-3181


Iberia_Southeast_CA:I8566,0.126344,0.176702,0.0554 37,-0.02907,0.087401,-0.036814,-0.01034,0.009923,0.076901,0.089113,-0.010393,0.02278,-0.041328,-0.030415,0.002172,0.006895,-0.002999,-0.002534,-0.007416,5e-04,0.010731,0.000124,-0.013434,-0.035186,-0.004431
-3150


Iberia_North_MLN:I11248,0.135449,0.167562,0.070899 ,-0.017119,0.098788,-0.020638,-0.0094,0.002538,0.059516,0.093487,0.000325,0.01318 8,-0.028692,-0.019818,-0.013436,0.011668,0.005737,0.002914,0.001634,-0.007003,0.01959,0.006059,-0.020336,-0.046272,0.000838
-3100


Iberia_North_MLN:I11249,0.132035,0.159438,0.065619 ,-0.01615,0.09571,-0.016455,-0.00705,0.007154,0.075878,0.08474,-0.001299,0.013488,-0.02661,-0.018304,-0.0038,0.019358,0.024903,0.002407,-0.002263,-0.003252,0.008235,0.005688,-0.015406,-0.039162,0.000359
-3100


Iberia_North_MLN:I11301,0.12862,0.164516,0.064865,-0.021964,0.093248,-0.016176,-0.005875,0.006,0.060335,0.095127,-0.009743,0.008093,-0.039098,-0.024222,0.000679,0.004906,-0.001565,0.006841,-0.001383,-0.002626,0.022959,0.001978,-0.023787,-0.043259,0.006107
-3100


Iberia_North_MLN:I7602,0.126344,0.159438,0.071653,-0.023256,0.086785,-0.019522,-0.00658,0.000462,0.065039,0.084922,-0.002761,0.007793,-0.032408,-0.01734,-0.006922,0.006099,0.004694,0.000507,-0.005405,0.003377,0.017719,0.007419,-0.013311,-0.049525,0.012454
-3100


Iberia_North_MLN:I7603,0.124067,0.17264,0.066373,-0.021318,0.101557,-0.022032,-0.002115,0.010846,0.068925,0.088567,-0.007145,0.018134,-0.037462,-0.007982,0.004207,-0.014717,-0.008084,0.002154,0.005908,-0.001,0.013351,0.008408,-0.012941,-0.032173,-0.001197
-3100


Iberia_North_MLN:I7604,0.134311,0.156392,0.067505,-0.022933,0.08894,-0.010598,-0.009635,0.005077,0.062584,0.094945,0.000325,0.017 834,-0.029732,-0.010459,-0.006243,-0.003845,0.014342,-0.004181,-0.005279,0.010255,0.015223,0.006306,-0.008627,-0.042657,-0.001557
-3100


Iberia_North_MLN:I7605,0.122929,0.166547,0.073161,-0.014858,0.09294,-0.028168,-0.00846,-0.006231,0.069947,0.090389,-0.003897,0.016635,-0.026016,-0.017891,-0.0038,0.003315,0.005998,-0.009375,-0.001508,-0.002251,0.016221,-0.007914,-0.009737,-0.052658,0.007185
-3100


Iberia_North_MLN:I7606,0.136588,0.167562,0.074293,-0.01938,0.096326,-0.020638,0.000705,0.007615,0.058698,0.089478,-0.001786,0.012589,-0.027056,-0.024222,-0.000271,0.016574,0.020079,0.002154,0.009427,-0.001751,0.014849,0.003833,-0.007888,-0.039524,0.008023
-3100


Iberia_Southwest_CA:I11599,0.111547,0.155376,0.052 043,-0.028424,0.091709,-0.02008,-0.008695,-0.002769,0.06872,0.101506,0.001624,0.013488,-0.02884,-0.015689,-0.005565,0.006629,0.008084,-0.004941,-0.006034,-0.002001,0.023833,0.015828,-0.01935,-0.041331,-0.002874
-3100


Iberia_Southwest_CA:I11600,0.126344,0.165531,0.059 208,-0.027455,0.089247,-0.022032,-0.0094,-0.002077,0.082014,0.12228,0.002436,0.023079,-0.048463,-0.032479,-0.020629,0.000398,0.02047,0.014442,0.003645,0.0051 27,0.02558,0.009274,-0.025882,-0.11098,0.027423
-3100


Iberia_Southwest_CA:I3432,0.12862,0.167562,0.04978 ,-0.036822,0.08617,-0.029284,-0.00047,0.000231,0.063198,0.097496,-0.003085,0.017834,-0.033895,-0.010872,-0.009636,-0.00358,0.014994,0.003547,-0.002514,0.000375,0.007986,-0.007419,-0.017008,-0.0435,0.006347
-2994


Iberia_Northeast_CA:I4565,0.129758,0.167562,0.0561 91,-0.029393,0.08617,-0.0251,-0.006815,-0.001615,0.066061,0.099319,-0.001299,0.014987,-0.032408,-0.015276,-0.005565,0.008618,0.008214,0.013429,0.004777,-0.003126,0.016221,0.007419,-0.018734,-0.043259,0.002515
-2964


Iberia_Northeast_MLN:I10277,0.121791,0.173656,0.05 0911,-0.034884,0.090786,-0.01757,-0.004935,0.003,0.066061,0.090754,-0.003573,0.020532,-0.023786,-0.013349,-0.009636,0.011933,0.020079,0.005321,-0.005154,-0.005127,0.003369,0.000742,-0.015406,-0.034704,0.000838
-2950


Iberia_Northeast_MLN:I10278,0.121791,0.17264,0.050 157,-0.044574,0.088324,-0.017849,-0.000705,0.006,0.072197,0.101141,0.005359,0.012889 ,-0.0278,-0.01156,0.003257,-0.011005,-0.009518,0.006461,0.002388,-0.000625,0.009109,0.000495,-0.017748,-0.046754,0.007065
-2950


Iberia_Northeast_MLN:I10280,0.130897,0.165531,0.05 5814,-0.045543,0.094171,-0.027331,-0.002115,-0.000462,0.056653,0.090936,-0.00341,0.018883,-0.032111,-0.025598,-0.004343,-0.003182,-0.002217,-0.005068,-0.000754,-0.005628,0.010232,0.008656,-0.020459,-0.03868,-0.003832
-2950


Iberia_Northeast_MLN:I10285,0.132035,0.171624,0.06 5619,-0.029393,0.092633,-0.009203,-0.008695,0.007384,0.062584,0.090389,-0.001461,0.006744,-0.03107,-0.018992,0.006379,-0.007027,-0.004172,0.011909,0.000628,-0.008629,0.014599,0.006677,-0.013434,-0.039042,-0.000239
-2950


Iberia_Northeast_MLN:I10287,0.117238,0.169593,0.04 3369,-0.033915,0.093864,-0.028447,-0.002115,-0.000692,0.054812,0.095492,-0.004872,0.017385,-0.031516,-0.018166,-0.013029,0.013259,0.024512,-0.000633,-0.004525,-0.001376,0.012977,0.008656,-0.020213,-0.032776,-0.004431
-2950


Iberia_Northeast_MLN:I11305,0.130897,0.168578,0.04 2992,-0.050065,0.078784,-0.023148,-0.000705,0.006461,0.061971,0.096221,0.001137,0.023 979,-0.038354,-0.02491,-0.016558,0.009812,0.021253,0.000253,-0.005782,-0.005378,0.01123,0.001484,-0.01442,-0.020605,0.000599
-2950


Iberia_Northeast_MLN:I11306,0.126344,0.171624,0.06 1471,-0.037468,0.092633,-0.0251,-0.015041,0.006,0.069743,0.096038,-0.007632,0.017085,-0.030327,-0.010459,-0.002036,-0.006099,-0.01356,0.004181,0.009553,-0.002126,0.019216,0.00915,-0.017378,-0.043862,0.005389
-2950


Iberia_Southwest_CA:I5429,0.125205,0.161469,0.0452 54,-0.033915,0.079399,-0.032072,-0.001175,-0.003461,0.062993,0.092758,0.004872,0.014087,-0.035381,-0.009358,-0.002714,-0.005171,-0.002999,0.004561,0.001006,-0.004377,0.015722,0.004946,-0.021815,-0.039644,0.005269
-2948


Iberia_North_CA:I1842,0.135449,0.166547,0.072784,-0.021641,0.087401,-0.014781,-0.003525,0.009692,0.070152,0.093852,0.00341,0.0152 86,-0.027948,-0.021607,-0.015201,-0.002121,0.001695,0.003167,0.003645,-0.006753,0.015597,-0.00136,-0.016392,-0.044344,0.004431
-2900


Iberia_North_CA:I1845,0.136588,0.17264,0.058077,-0.028101,0.076937,-0.015618,-0.00282,0.004846,0.069538,0.093852,0.003897,0.0215 81,-0.039544,-0.011147,0.002579,-0.017369,-0.007953,0.001647,0.006662,-0.012131,0.021462,0.004822,-0.021568,-0.033017,0.00934
-2875


Iberia_North_CA:I1846,0.135449,0.167562,0.058454,-0.033269,0.087093,-0.026495,-0.00329,0.005077,0.071174,0.102599,-0.010393,0.020232,-0.037314,-0.022295,-0.001221,0.004243,0.014733,0.005194,-0.00729,0.003377,0.017968,0.005564,-0.014666,-0.047718,0.010298
-2875


Iberia_North_CA:I1978,0.132035,0.166547,0.062225,-0.023579,0.094787,-0.020359,-0.00235,0.003461,0.066061,0.092029,0.001949,0.0197 82,-0.029583,-0.016377,0.000271,-0.000265,0.001304,0.000633,-0.002891,0.002001,0.008859,-0.000618,-0.017008,-0.039765,-0.001916
-2875


Iberia_Southeast_MLN:I7642,0.134311,0.1635,0.04299 2,-0.043605,0.09571,-0.032072,-0.00329,0.001385,0.065652,0.102417,0.000974,0.0193 33,-0.037314,-0.017203,-0.002307,-0.002254,-0.002738,0.00266,-0.001257,-0.01063,0.015348,-0.000371,-0.009367,-0.037837,0.000239
-2834


Iberia_Southwest_CA:I11605,0.127482,0.164516,0.056 945,-0.022287,0.084323,-0.023985,-0.002115,0.006461,0.06872,0.085469,-0.003248,0.01139,-0.037314,-0.018166,0.002307,0.007027,0.024903,-0.00228,-0.010182,0.008629,0.013851,0.012365,-0.022801,-0.037114,0.00479
-2800


Iberia_Southeast_CA:I8569,0.126344,0.162485,0.0482 71,-0.034238,0.081554,-0.022869,0.002115,-0.003923,0.063198,0.088202,-0.000974,0.018284,-0.026313,-0.016515,-0.0057,0.014983,0.02373,0.010769,0.007793,-0.003377,0.008235,0.006677,-0.011092,-0.024823,0.000359
-2749


Iberia_Southeast_CA:I8197,0.118376,0.165531,0.0456 32,-0.042313,0.092633,-0.022032,-0.00188,0.000923,0.062175,0.093305,-0.002598,0.014237,-0.027205,-0.020781,-0.018322,0.00305,0.022556,0.009375,-0.002137,-0.00963,0.000998,0.004575,-0.012448,-0.034101,0.000838
-2700


Iberia_Southeast_CA:I8198,0.121791,0.159438,0.0433 69,-0.037145,0.084631,-0.018686,-0.010105,0.003231,0.059516,0.098043,-0.001624,0.019033,-0.036868,-0.023121,-0.009772,0.00358,0.01017,-0.000633,-0.00264,-0.006378,0.001373,0,-0.00912,-0.040367,0.004311
-2700


Iberia_Southeast_CA:I8199,0.127482,0.167562,0.0494 03,-0.051034,0.091709,-0.025658,-0.00658,-0.000231,0.067493,0.095309,0.000974,0.019932,-0.031813,-0.017616,-0.002579,-0.005569,0.014603,0.005701,-0.003017,-0.003502,0.007861,-0.002844,-0.019473,-0.040608,0.004431
-2700


Iberia_Southwest_CA:I11592,0.122929,0.164516,0.056 191,-0.025517,0.080938,-0.025379,-0.01034,0.002308,0.068106,0.099683,0.007795,0.0074 93,-0.035084,-0.014726,-0.00855,-0.00305,0.00352,0.000633,0.005028,-0.00963,0.002745,0.003091,-0.012325,-0.040006,0.006706
-2700


Iberia_Southwest_CA:I11614,0.122929,0.173656,0.049 026,-0.040052,0.081554,-0.0251,-0.00282,0.004384,0.06463,0.091665,-0.003085,0.013638,-0.031665,-0.028075,0.000136,0.010077,0.019166,0.005448,0.003 897,0.003502,0.013227,0.003586,-0.013064,-0.041813,0.001676
-2700


Iberia_Southwest_CA:I6601,0.122929,0.1635,0.0445,-0.037791,0.094171,-0.022311,-0.00235,0.000923,0.069334,0.095492,0.004384,0.0113 9,-0.027948,-0.016652,-0.007872,-0.012463,-0.009388,0.006208,0.005908,-0.006378,0.013351,0.004699,-0.01479,-0.039162,0.005389
-2700


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I1970,0.125205,0.173656,0.06750 5,-0.0323,0.079399,-0.024263,-0.00611,0.004384,0.054403,0.113533,-0.009094,0.018883,-0.041922,-0.030965,0.000271,0.010209,0.021905,-0.001014,0.009176,0.00988,0.013351,-0.00643,-0.017378,-0.045549,0.000838
-2683


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I0826,0.132035,0.176702,0.06222 5,-0.029393,0.090171,-0.016455,-0.021386,0.006461,0.041927,0.098407,-0.009743,0.006444,-0.043112,-0.010459,-0.001221,-0.011668,0.021905,-0.007981,0.00817,-0.013006,0.005366,-0.015209,-0.006039,-0.040849,0.002634
-2654


Iberia_Southeast_CA:I8364,0.126344,0.174671,0.0554 37,-0.043928,0.078476,-0.025379,-0.015981,-0.000462,0.063811,0.089478,-0.000325,0.012889,-0.026462,-0.00812,-0.015065,-0.003713,0.009648,0.00152,0.001508,-0.010255,0.013726,0.002226,-0.010723,-0.039403,0.006706
-2637


Iberia_Southeast_CA:I8365,0.1161,0.166547,0.041483 ,-0.049419,0.093556,-0.03263,-0.00423,0.001615,0.074038,0.085469,0.000812,0.0094 42,-0.024232,-0.012524,-0.006243,-0.001326,0.005346,-0.00266,0.00264,0.001251,0.007861,-0.006183,-0.016515,-0.027112,-0.003473
-2637


Iberia_Central_CA:I6617,0.129758,0.167562,0.050911 ,-0.024871,0.090786,-0.022311,-0.00705,-0.003692,0.065652,0.093123,-0.006171,0.017684,-0.03776,-0.023671,0.000814,0.006629,0.014864,0.004561,0.003 017,-0.005002,0.014599,0.001113,-0.007148,-0.027474,0.00479
-2600


Iberia_Central_CA_Stp:EHU002,0.125205,0.15436,0.05 8831,0.022287,0.055087,-0.000279,0.0047,0.005077,0.031906,0.03991,0.00065, 0.010341,-0.029881,-0.007707,0.010993,0.011403,0.003651,0.00076,0.0020 11,0.003126,0.019216,0.006554,-0.008504,-0.019521,0.008023
-2431


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I0459,0.127482,0.166547,0.05958 5,-0.028424,0.082477,-0.016176,-0.00517,0.001154,0.073833,0.078726,-0.003897,0.015137,-0.027948,-0.016377,-0.003664,0.007292,0.008345,0.002914,-0.004902,-0.003126,0.009358,0.003091,-0.013188,-0.046633,0.005628
-2400


Iberia_Mallorca_EBA:I4329,0.120652,0.14319,0.05656 8,0.008398,0.054472,0,0,0.005077,0.023111,0.043008 ,-0.012179,0.014087,-0.027502,-0.017891,0.0076,0.006895,0.010691,-0.002914,0.003268,-0.011756,-0.001747,-0.006183,-0.016885,-0.006868,0.0097
-2381


Iberia_Northwest_CA_Stp:I3238,0.119514,0.139128,0. 056191,0.035207,0.066782,-0.004183,-0.003055,-0.008077,0.024747,0.040456,0.00682,0.009741,-0.017096,-0.018166,0.016015,-0.000265,0.004955,0.007475,-0.011564,0.002751,0.007362,0.005193,-0.000863,-0.014339,-0.001916
-2350


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I4247,0.12862,0.178733,0.034695 ,-0.030685,0.080323,-0.021753,-0.012926,0.01223,0.065652,0.101141,-0.000162,0.024578,-0.021556,-0.022845,-0.009093,0.018695,0.023339,-0.004434,0.001257,-0.007879,0.010731,0.006677,-0.019227,-0.035186,0.001437
-2335


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I0460,0.12862,0.156392,0.064111 ,-0.021318,0.08894,-0.015897,-0.00564,0.001385,0.06872,0.097314,-0.004872,0.017984,-0.025124,-0.026011,0.006243,-0.00358,0.00352,0.007095,0.003268,-0.009004,0.016221,-0.002968,-0.020952,-0.04832,0.003832
-2333


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I0461,0.1161,0.140143,0.051288, 0.008721,0.070475,-0.00753,-0.00846,0.007846,0.041518,0.046106,-0.010555,0.010341,-0.021853,-0.021744,0.012351,0.019358,0.016428,0.007981,-0.005154,0.005628,0.009358,0,-0.011955,-0.013375,-0.002874
-2327


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I0840,0.122929,0.157407,0.05204 3,-0.030685,0.081861,-0.020638,-0.014336,-0.005769,0.068106,0.090571,-0.003248,0.016186,-0.033895,-0.022708,-0.001221,0.000265,0.014864,-0.014189,0.001885,-0.00025,0.012104,0.00371,-0.00493,-0.038198,0.003353
-2303


Iberia_Central_CA_Afr:I4246,-0.05122,0.140143,-0.002263,-0.091086,0.0397,-0.047133,-0.036192,0.007384,0.091013,0.044283,0.012179,-0.000899,0.006987,-0.018029,0.020087,-0.016309,0.000652,-0.016596,-0.033561,0.003001,-0.011729,-0.018548,0.013064,-0.009399,0.005987
-2273


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I6472,0.135449,0.144205,0.07655 5,0.015181,0.048009,-0.009482,-0.015276,0.000923,0.035383,0.049933,0.001624,0.016 935,-0.029286,-0.009221,0.012758,-0.016971,0.004955,-0.003674,-0.007039,-0.002501,0.004866,0.010263,-0.006902,-0.020244,0.004431
-2250


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I6539,0.124067,0.149283,0.05732 2,-0.003553,0.070167,-0.001394,-0.01081,0.003692,0.030679,0.041914,0.00341,0.00524 5,-0.023637,-0.026286,0.002307,0.009414,0.024121,-0.004941,0.00264,-0.006503,0.002496,0.00371,-0.001849,-0.016147,0.003233
-2250


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I6584,0.124067,0.175687,0.06033 9,-0.02584,0.080015,-0.029284,-0.00329,0.001846,0.074856,0.087656,-0.004222,0.013488,-0.020069,-0.01101,-0.002986,-0.008884,0.009257,-0.000507,0.016718,0.017383,0.005241,0.00371,-0.015036,-0.026992,-0.006347
-2250


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I6587,0.118376,0.165531,0.05807 7,-0.036499,0.089555,-0.030957,-0.01081,-0.001615,0.060539,0.094763,0.000487,0.004796,-0.036125,-0.020231,-0.003664,-0.002519,0.010431,-0.002154,-0.015335,-0.006253,0.024332,-0.009274,-0.014173,-0.030607,-0.008263
-2250


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I6588,0.134311,0.15436,0.061094 ,0.007429,0.053856,0.014502,0.00658,0.01823,0.0182 03,0.045741,-0.009906,0.016036,-0.025867,-0.026424,0.011265,0.012596,0.000522,0.006081,-0.002388,0.017508,0.006613,-0.015457,-0.001849,-0.003133,0.007305
-2250


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I4229,0.120652,0.160454,0.04789 4,-0.023902,0.077553,-0.013387,-0.008695,0.005077,0.053176,0.072894,-0.003897,0.012439,-0.037611,-0.015689,-0.004072,-0.001326,0.003129,0.005574,0.000628,-0.004252,0.018218,-0.000495,-0.017624,-0.025666,-0.000239
-2214


Iberia_Central_CA_Stp:EHU001,0.126344,0.129988,0.0 50157,0.041344,0.037853,0.011156,0.003995,0.000462 ,0.015135,0.024784,-0.002436,0.008842,-0.017245,-0.013625,0.024294,0.008088,-0.000652,0.006968,0.004022,-0.000125,0.002371,0.00136,0,-0.003856,0.007664
-2164


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I6623,0.133173,0.146236,0.06147 1,0.036822,0.042162,0.011435,0.00987,0.002077,0.02 1475,0.032256,-0.015427,0.014087,-0.020812,-0.020781,0.009636,-0.006762,-0.016168,0.007221,0.004902,0.005628,0.010482,0.010 51,-0.004683,-0.011929,0
-2150


Bell_Beaker_Iberia_C:I6542,0.133173,0.157407,0.061 094,-0.022933,0.093248,-0.00251,0.00141,0.008538,0.063402,0.090025,-0.002273,0.012589,-0.030178,-0.018854,-0.013436,0.003315,0.028945,0.004941,-0.000754,0.013757,0.015722,-0.003586,-0.013188,-0.053984,-0.011376
-2150


Iberia_Central_CA:I6609,0.126344,0.173656,0.05506,-0.042313,0.097557,-0.030957,-0.010575,-0.000462,0.07097,0.086927,-0.017376,0.010191,-0.030773,-0.01156,-0.001629,0.006895,0.009909,-0.000507,0.003394,-0.000125,0.015098,-0.001731,-0.007395,-0.026028,-0.001078
-2150


Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I5665,0.126344,0.149283,0.05279 7,0.012274,0.068936,0.000837,-0.011281,-0.001385,0.043768,0.049204,0.001624,0.014687,-0.02438,-0.008945,0.001493,-0.002121,-0.008736,0.009755,0.004777,-0.00025,0.013227,0.001113,-0.00456,-0.027474,0.000838
-2133


Iberia_Central_CA:I3485,0.125205,0.162485,0.051666 ,-0.022933,0.080015,-0.014502,-0.006345,0.004384,0.048472,0.075992,-0.003897,0.014687,-0.025124,-0.011698,-0.005429,-0.001458,-0.00665,-0.001774,-0.009427,-0.014882,0.015098,0.007419,-0.011216,-0.028679,0.006107
-2100


Iberia_Central_CA:I6604,0.124067,0.17264,0.061848,-0.028747,0.115098,-0.017291,-0.004935,0.000692,0.078537,0.105697,-0.000812,0.013488,-0.032557,-0.01156,-0.012893,0.005967,0.028684,0.002027,-0.002765,0.007879,0.016845,0.000742,-0.021568,-0.040247,-0.00455
-2013


Iberia_Central_BA:I3756,0.124067,0.149283,0.06675, 0.001615,0.07386,-0.013666,-0.002115,-0.006,0.033951,0.06761,-0.009743,0.014387,-0.032408,-0.024497,0.007193,0.01432,0.023991,-0.002027,0.001006,-0.006628,0.00836,-0.004575,-0.006532,-0.025425,-0.004191
-1897


Iberia_Southeast_BA:I3494,0.127482,0.158423,0.0573 22,-0.017442,0.07109,-0.00753,-0.010105,0.004846,0.0452,0.073806,-0.004872,0.012439,-0.020218,-0.014588,0.00665,0.001724,-0.000261,0.009755,-0.002011,0.001,0.011355,-0.001607,-0.009244,-0.029281,0.001557
-1837


Iberia_Southwest_BA_Afr:I7162,0.103579,0.15436,0.0 43746,-0.005491,0.066782,-0.017849,-0.009635,0.001154,0.054403,0.054671,0.002923,0.004 046,-0.020664,-0.0139,0.008415,-0.007425,-0.00678,0.00114,-0.016089,-0.005253,0.002246,-0.005193,-0.008997,-0.02181,0.001916
-1812


Iberia_Formentera_MBA:I4420_all,0.120652,0.151314, 0.048649,-0.002261,0.056934,-0.009203,-0.003995,0.004384,0.035792,0.058133,-0.001461,0.01079,-0.02438,-0.022845,0.004479,0.008884,0.012126,-0.001014,-0.003268,-0.002376,0.006114,0.000124,-0.000493,-0.01687,0.002275
-1788


Iberia_Central_BA:I6618,0.119514,0.166547,0.061848 ,-0.001292,0.073244,-0.013666,-0.00611,0.000231,0.039473,0.060502,0.003573,0.0154 36,-0.020515,-0.015964,-0.003664,-0.002519,0.009127,0.000633,-0.000377,0.006628,0.00574,0.002844,-0.006409,-0.01699,0.003473
-1785


Iberia_North_BA:VAD001,0.12862,0.147252,0.053174,0 .008398,0.070475,0,-0.011516,0.007384,0.033746,0.058862,-0.003085,0.011839,-0.020515,-0.027112,0.007465,0.014585,0.022296,-0.003547,-0.012318,0.003502,0.014474,0.010016,-0.007641,-0.017111,0.001317
-1709


Iberia_Southeast_BA:I3997,0.122929,0.160454,0.0539 28,-0.002584,0.06832,-0.013108,-0.0047,0.005307,0.046836,0.072165,0.000812,0.01378 8,-0.032259,-0.032754,0.006786,0.020817,0.024121,-0.005574,-0.006662,-0.001251,0.003369,0.004946,-0.008381,-0.025184,0.000599
-1709


Iberia_North_BA:VAD004,0.120652,0.15436,0.052043,0 .006783,0.06155,-0.007809,0.004935,0.002308,0.030679,0.058133,-0.005034,0.007643,-0.034192,-0.011698,0.015201,-0.010475,0.002217,0.005701,0.009427,-0.01038,0.006738,0.006306,-0.005669,-0.012411,0.010418
-1700


Iberia_Northeast_BA:I1310,0.121791,0.152329,0.0592 08,0.007429,0.070782,-0.009482,-0.00329,-0.001846,0.039473,0.05704,-0.001299,0.010191,-0.017393,-0.017203,0.005429,0.015248,0.016298,-0.006841,-0.000628,0.002126,-0.001622,0.006183,-0.007518,-0.025064,-0.000599
-1700


Iberia_Northeast_BA:I1313_d,0.122929,0.152329,0.05 8831,-0.004845,0.064012,-0.019522,-0.008695,-0.001154,0.041927,0.047564,0.000325,0.010041,-0.029732,-0.011836,0.002036,0.010607,0.021774,0.005701,0.004 651,0.007379,0.01959,0.005935,-0.013311,-0.008555,0.001317
-1700


Iberia_Northeast_BA:I4562,0.122929,0.152329,0.0629 79,-0.001938,0.065551,-0.007251,0.00235,-0.001154,0.039473,0.055035,-0.007957,0.004346,-0.024232,-0.016102,0.004343,0.008884,0.00339,-0.000127,0.000503,0.003502,0.010232,0.004081,-0.01023,-0.022654,0.006586
-1677


Iberia_Central_BA:I6470,0.126344,0.148267,0.059962 ,0.002907,0.061858,-0.001394,-0.00799,0.001846,0.042541,0.049933,0.000974,0.0071 94,-0.022299,-0.017478,0.007329,0.003978,0.007953,0.001647,-0.000754,0.004502,0.016221,0,-0.013557,-0.023859,0.008502
-1643


Iberia_North_BA:VAD005,0.121791,0.157407,0.055437, 0.008721,0.072013,0.003347,-0.00188,-0.007154,0.03845,0.053942,-0.008931,0.005845,-0.015163,-0.018854,0.007057,0.013657,0.026729,0.006714,0.005 028,0.002626,0.006364,0.000742,-0.016392,-0.022172,-0.001796
-1639


Iberia_Northeast_BA:I4559,0.12862,0.14319,0.062979 ,0.006783,0.07386,-0.004462,0.006345,0.000231,0.047859,0.062689,0.000 325,0.008093,-0.021407,-0.020368,-0.000679,0.02254,0.015646,-0.005068,0.00176,0.013506,0.010731,0.004328,-0.010723,-0.016267,0.002395
-1600


Iberia_Northeast_BA:I4560,0.127482,0.151314,0.0599 62,0.008398,0.063704,-0.005578,-0.00658,0.004154,0.025361,0.061049,-0.008931,0.007793,-0.029435,-0.019267,-0.005157,0.009016,0.025816,0.001394,-0.005656,0.003752,0.003119,-0.006677,-0.015406,-0.015183,0.003233
-1600


Iberia_Northeast_BA:I4561,0.130897,0.144205,0.0644 88,0.011305,0.065858,0.004462,0.00235,0,0.041723,0 .054853,-0.003897,0.015137,-0.026164,-0.018029,-0.000271,0.003713,-0.002868,0.008108,0.006662,0.001751,0.015348,-0.003957,-0.016392,-0.014219,-0.001078
-1600


Iberia_Northeast_BA:I4563,0.126344,0.149283,0.0599 62,0.001615,0.072013,-0.00502,0.00235,-0.000923,0.035792,0.054124,-0.001786,0.010641,-0.027354,-0.023121,-0.001764,0.004243,0.002868,-0.000507,0.001885,0.00075,0.020214,-0.00136,-0.02391,-0.012532,-0.001557
-1600


Iberia_Northeast_BA:I1836,0.129758,0.157407,0.0584 54,-0.00323,0.059396,-0.000558,-0.00141,-0.003231,0.039064,0.04811,0.00065,0.006145,-0.029435,-0.021332,0.002443,0.011535,0.008214,0.000127,-0.00176,-0.001251,0.008859,0.010016,-0.007765,-0.016629,-0.007544
-1593


Iberia_North_BA:I2471,0.126344,0.155376,0.058077,-0.001292,0.063704,0.00251,0.000235,0.013153,0.0255 65,0.048839,-0.004384,0.010191,-0.018583,-0.005643,0.006107,-0.001193,-0.004042,0.006968,-0.005908,-0.002001,0.005989,0.011747,-0.009983,-0.003976,0.00455
-1541


Iberia_North_BA:I1840,0.127482,0.155376,0.059585,0 .003553,0.077245,-0.005299,-0.005405,0.003,0.034565,0.052484,-0.001624,0.014687,-0.020664,-0.018166,0.001764,0.018563,0.021122,0.002027,0.002 137,0.005628,0.010856,0.003586,-0.004067,-0.034463,0.010059
-1531


Iberia_Central_BA:I3490,0.129758,0.153345,0.070522 ,0.005168,0.069551,-0.006414,-0.00987,-0.003923,0.039678,0.05212,-0.004872,0.015886,-0.018285,-0.011147,0.008143,0.008221,0.008084,0.000507,0.002 765,-0.005127,0.007986,0.004451,-0.018487,-0.033258,-0.005149
-1500


Iberia_Southeast_BA:I8136,0.125205,0.15436,0.05392 8,-0.004845,0.069244,-0.006693,-0.00752,0.009,0.055221,0.06925,-0.001786,0.014687,-0.030773,-0.013487,0.000814,-0.001193,0.004172,-0.004181,0.010307,-0.007379,0.012104,0.003215,-0.002095,-0.020003,-0.005149
-1478


Iberia_Central_BA:I3493,0.127482,0.13405,0.050534,-0.001615,0.066782,-0.004183,-0.00752,0.006692,0.038655,0.050479,-0.012342,0.010491,-0.02557,-0.021332,0.010993,0.02148,0.011735,0.00114,-0.006034,0.002876,0.022336,0.005441,0.001972,-0.008435,0.008382
-1351


Iberia_North_BA:I2470,0.120652,0.158423,0.05506,0. 000969,0.062781,-0.007251,-0.00141,0.004384,0.041927,0.057951,-0.002761,0.007793,-0.016353,-0.011147,0.001357,-0.006497,-0.01369,0.011655,-0.005405,-0.014507,0.010606,0.001484,-0.012325,-0.0241,-0.002036
-1319


Iberia_Central_BA:I12208,0.119514,0.155376,0.04902 6,-0.001292,0.067089,-0.00753,-0.00141,-0.000692,0.044791,0.055582,0.00065,0.015736,-0.026016,-0.023946,0.006515,0.014585,0.024251,-0.006208,-0.004902,-0.003627,0.010232,-0.00272,-0.010969,-0.016629,-0.001557
-1300


Iberia_Central_BA:I12209,0.120652,0.147252,0.05883 1,-0.002907,0.068013,-0.005578,-0.001645,0.000923,0.037837,0.049022,0.000812,0.011 24,-0.025124,-0.022983,0.009772,0.012198,0.024121,0.001394,-0.006788,0.006378,0.009733,-0.006677,-0.008011,-0.017231,0.010418
-1300


Iberia_Southeast_BA:I8570,0.132035,0.155376,0.0573 22,-0.004522,0.058472,0.000279,-0.0047,0.002308,0.044995,0.05376,-0.001624,0.005695,-0.020069,-0.010046,0.00665,0.001326,-0.007041,-0.006714,0.00088,0.008879,0.008111,-0.002226,0.000246,-0.010242,-0.001197
-1150




Y estas son todas las muestras antiguas con el Haplogrupo R-DF27:



Lab name
Version-ID
Skeletal name
Y-DNA
mtDNA
SNPs
Date
Culture
Group
Label
Site
Country


GBVPK

GBVPK44_AMIS_2_02260
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195
J>J2>J2b>J2b1>J2b1a
-2387
Bell_Beaker
Bell Beaker France Pyrenean
Grotte Basse de la Vigne Perdue, les Monges
France


I0806
I0806
QLB28, QLB28b_10321, KC554010.1
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27
H>H1
138919
-2267
Bell_Beaker
BK_Germany_SAN
Germany_BellBeaker
Quedlinburg
Germany


I8561
I8561
Abisso del Vento 2017 (Grotto)
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195
K>K1>K1b>K1b1>K1b1-x
906209
-2262
Sicily_EBA
Sicily_EBA
Italy_Sicily_EBA_o1
Sicily, Isnello
Italy


I3123
I3123
BU31, grave 3031
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z198
U>U2'3'4'7'8'9>U8>U8b'c>U8b>U8b1>U8b1b>U8b1b1
898425
-2171
Sicily_EBA
Sicily_EBA
Italy_Sicily_EBA
Sicily, Buffa
Italy


I3756
I3756
TEBO'03, D8 UE12; Tumba 1
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12_1>FGC78762>BY21074>BY21075>FT5780
H>H1
604170
-1910
Iberia_BA
Cogotas I
Spain_EBA
Castillejo del Bonete, Terrinches, Ciudad Real, Castilla-La Mancha
Spain


I3494
I3494
CF-1
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12_1>BY3332
J>J1>J1c>J1c1>J1c1b
698862
-1831
Iberia_BA
SE_Iberia_BA
Spain_EBA
Coveta del Frare, La Font de la Figuera, València/Valencia, Valencian Community
Spain


OBE3626-1
OBE3626-1.SG
OBE3626-1
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12_1>Z225
R>R1>R1b
225156
-1824
France_EBA
Early Bronze Age
France_GrandEst_EBA.SG
Obernai
France


I1312
I1312_d
E-459_No6
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195
R>R0>HV>HV0>HV0-T195C!
157827
-1700
Iberia_BA
North-East Iberia BA
Spain_EBA
Can Roqueta II, Sabadell, Barcelona, Catalonia
Spain


VAD001
VAD001
E45
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12_1>Z225
U>U5>U5a'b>U5b>U5b1
570346
-1691
Iberia_BA
North Iberia BA
Spain_EBA
Valdescusa, Hervías, La Rioja
Spain


I6470
I6470
RISE912
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12_1>FT9510>FT10154
J>J1>J1c>J1c1
687251
-1659
Iberia_BA
Cogotas I
Spain_EBA
Virgazal, Tablada de Rudrón, Burgos, Castilla y León
Spain


I4563
I4563
GC.2.150.n170 and GC.2.149.n169
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z198>Y29886>PH1909>YP5900
R>R0>HV>H
420119
-1600
Iberia_BA
North-East Iberia BA
Spain_EBA_1d.rel.I4561
Galls Carboners, Mont-ral, Tarragona, Catalonia
Spain


I1840
I1840
ES.2/4-1
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12_1>BY3332>BY128991
H>H3>H3ap
661465
-1525
Iberia_BA
North Iberia BA
Spain_EBA
El Sotillo, Laguardia, Araba/Álava, Basque Country
Spain


esp005
esp005.SG
CL1, ERS2059523
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12_1>BY15963
K>K1>K1a
943381
-1450
Iberia_BA
Cogotas
Spain_BA.SG
Cueva de los Lagos, La Rioja
Spain


I12209
I12209
SRH-03
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27
H>H1>H1ah
899574
-1300
Iberia_BA
Cogotas I
Spain_MBA
La Requejada, San Román de Hornija, Valladolid, Castilla y León
Spain


I3315
I3315
NT14
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27
U>U5>U5a'b>U5b>U5b1>U5b1-T16189C!>U5b1c
798836
-859
Menorca_LBA
Menorca_LBA
Spain_LBA_Menorca_dup.I22306
Balearic Islands, Menorca, Naveta des Tudons
Spain


I3324
I3324
4976
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z274>Z209
H>H1
247012
-273
Iberia_IA
Iberian culture
Spain_IA_o
Puig de Sant Andreu, Ullastret, Girona, Catalonia
Spain


I3496
I3496_published
MC-1573
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z198>ZS312>BY3214>CTS9993
H>H1>H1e>H1e1>H1e1a
136968
-250
Iberia_IA
Iberian culture
Spain_IA_published
Turó de Ca n’Oliver, Cerdanyola, Barcelona, Catalonia
Spain


I3320
I3320
S-EVA 9305; Ind 1
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12_1>Z225
N>N1'5>N1>N1a>N1a1'2>N1a1>N1a1b>I>I1
403351
-200
Iberia_IA
Iberian culture
Spain_IA_published
Els Estrets de la Rata, Vilafamés, Castelló/Castellón, Valencian Community
Spain


UN85


R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27
H>H2>H2a>H2a2>H2a2a
183736
-200
France_IA
Gaul

Urville-Nacqueville necropolis
France


I8206
I8206
12-SU-33-A4-T680
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27
H>H7>H7a>H7a1
425016
-153
Iberia_Hel
NE Iberia Hellenistic (Empúries1)
Spain_Hellenistic_oLocal
Empúries, Girona, Catalonia
Spain


I3576
I3576
sepultura 27
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12_1>BY3332>PH4023>PH3162
T>T2>T2c>T2c1>T2c1a>T2c1a2
825464
482
Iberia_EMA
SE_Iberia_c.5-8CE
Spain_Visigoth_Granada
El Castillón, Montefrío, Granada, Andalusia
Spain


I3582
I3582
sepultura 77
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z274>Z209>FGC83504>Z295>Z270>Z211
K>K1>K1b>K1b1>K1b1-x>K1b1a
332438
500
Iberia_EMA
SE_Iberia_c.5-8CE
Spain_Visigoth_Granada
El Castillón, Montefrío, Granada, Andalusia
Spain


SZ5
SZ5.SG
SZO005.A0101, SRR6703600
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z198>ZS312>FGC39110>BY3195>BY3194
J>J2>J2b>J2b1
1176362
508
Germanic
Longobard migration
Hungary_Langobard.SG
Szólád, Hungary
Hungary


B67


R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z274>Z209>FGC83504>Z295>Z270>Z211>Z297>CTS2608>Z278>Z697>Z214>Z279>CTS8087>M153
R>R0>HV>H
600
Iberia_EMA
North Iberia Early Middle Ages
Aldaieta
Spain


B68


R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z274>Z209>FGC83504>Z295>Z270>Z211>Z297>CTS2608>Z278>Z697>Z214>Z279>CTS8087>M153
R>R0>HV>H
600
Iberia_EMA
North Iberia Early Middle Ages
Aldaieta
Spain


VK329
VK329.SG
Denmark_Ribe 8
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z274>Z209>FGC83504>Z295>S25783>CTS4065>S16864>S18894
H>H3>H3-T152C!
800874
767
Viking
Viking Denmark
Denmark_Viking.SG
Jutland
Denmark


I7672
I7672
T-120-1
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z198>ZS312>Z267>SRY2627>Z200>Z202
T>T2>T2h
57994
797
Iberia_EMA
North East Iberia Early Medieval
Spain_Carolingian
L'Esquerda, Roda de Ter, Barcelona, Catalonia
Spain


VK87
VK87.SG
Denmark_Hesselbjerg Grav 41b, sk PC
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z198
K>K1>K1c>K1c2
1049625
875
Viking
Viking Denmark
Denmark_Viking.SG
Jutland
Denmark


VK166
VK166.SG
UK_Oxford_#4; UK_Oxford_sk 1891
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z198>ZS312>Z267>SRY2627>Z200>Z202>Z205>CTS606>FT406551>CTS5337>CTS3555>BY814>Z29713>A7101>Y30608>BY67003>BY129880>BY45170
H>H3>H3ag
1087312
940
Viking
Viking UK
England_Viking.SG
Oxford
UK


VK147
VK147.SG
UK_Oxford_#11; UK_Oxford_sk 1864
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z274>DF17>CTS13028>FT44718>FGC14113>BY31082>Y31431>Y75899
T>T1>T1a>T1a-T152C!>T1a1'3>T1a1>T1a1q
617085
940
Viking
Viking UK
England_Viking.SG
Oxford
UK


VK365
VK365.SG
Denmark_Bogovej BS
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12_1>BY3289>Y6954>Y6951>Y6949>Y15637>BY34800
U>U2'3'4'7'8'9>U8>U8a>U8a2
628877
950
Viking
Viking Denmark
Denmark_Viking.SG
Langeland
Denmark


VK261
VK261.SG
UK_Dorset-3736
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12_1>FGC78762>ZZ19_1>Z31644>FGC78763>FGC13128>BY64643
H>H-T152C!>H52
749188
997
Viking
Viking UK
England_Viking.SG
Dorset
UK


VK403
VK403.SG
Sweden_Skara 217
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z198>ZS312>Z267>SRY2627>Z200>Z202>Z205>Z206>BY3222
K>K1>K1a>K1a4>K1a4a>K1a4a1>K1a4a1a>K1a4a1a2>K1a4a1a2b
891640
1050
Viking
Viking Sweden
Sweden_Viking.SG
Skara
Sweden


SI-41
SI-41.SG
SI-41
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27
V>V40
1090200
1240
Levant_MA
Lebanon Middle Ages
Lebanon_Medieval_o1.SG
Sidon
Lebanon


SNN002
SNN002
SSSN 02 1065
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z274
H>H1>H1j>H1j2>H1j2a
138309
1346
Sardinia_MA
Sardinia Medieval
Italy_Sardinia_Medieval
Sassari, SAS
Italy


R1220
R1220.SG
RMPR-1220
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12_1>FGC78762>BY21074>BY21075>FT5780>PH2781
T>T2>T2r
781723
1485
Italy_Renaissance
Rome_Medieval/EarlyModern
Italy_Medieval_EarlyModern_oCentralEuropean.SG
Cancelleria
Italy


win001

win001_bone
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z274>Z209>FGC83504>Z295>Z270>Z211>Z297>CTS2608>Z278>PH1171>S8067>BY54766
H>H3>H3b>H3b7
1642
Sweden_Early_Modern
Sweden Early Modern
Lund Cathedral
Sweden


win002

win002_bone
R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>Z195>Z274>DF17>CTS13028>FT44718>A4658>FT56517>BY27644>BY1806
U>U5>U5a'b>U5a>U5a1>U5a1-T16192C!>U5a1a>U5a1a1
1642
Sweden_Early_Modern
Sweden Early Modern
Lund Cathedral
Sweden

alejandromb92
06-17-2021, 12:18 PM
He utilizado una página que me pasó mokordo y me ploteé aquí:

45203

https://cladefinder.yseq.net/

castrogonzalo
06-17-2021, 03:27 PM
https://cladefinder.yseq.net/

Parece interesante pero dice 23andMe | AncestryDNA | MyHeritage | VCF, y no se si valen mis resultados de LivingDNA. Si valen, ¿es el fichero de resultados y hg sólo o también el mtdn hg? ¿o el que he utilizado en Eurogenes (creo que es el autosomal)? Muchas gracias a todos los que me estáis ayudando

castrogonzalo
06-17-2021, 03:47 PM
https://cladefinder.yseq.net/

Subí mi ydna.cvs de LivingDNA y no lo acepta: "unable to determine clade due to no positive SNPs" ...

alejandromb92
06-17-2021, 03:55 PM
Parece interesante pero dice 23andMe | AncestryDNA | MyHeritage | VCF, y no se si valen mis resultados de LivingDNA. Si valen, ¿es el fichero de resultados y hg sólo o también el mtdn hg? ¿o el que he utilizado en Eurogenes (creo que es el autosomal)? Muchas gracias a todos los que me estáis ayudando

El mismo fichero que usaste para gedmatch lo usas para esta pagina. Te da un resultado de inmediato de tu Y-DNA, que posiblemente sea el mismo que te dieron previamente pero alguna que otra sorpresa se ha llevado la gente.


Subí mi ydna.cvs de LivingDNA y no lo acepta: "unable to determine clade due to no positive SNPs" ...

Eso esta raro. Ahora que lo pienso, creo que el formato que te arroja LivingDNA en cuando a haplogrupos son SNPs diferentes a los que usan las otras empresas y por lo tanto esta herramienta no te hace la lectura.

castrogonzalo
06-19-2021, 05:38 PM
Hola. Inicio este hilo para continuar una conversación que se inició en el de "Resultados de ibéricos" y que se quedaba un poco fuera. El título explica el objetivo y busco que alguien pueda aclarar una etapa que se conoce solo a través de la arqueología y la genética, campos en los que yo no soy experto.

Por seguir con el tema "De 4000 BC a 1000 BC de prehistoria en la península Ibérica", empezaría con un hecho. Hay un paper de nature titulado "Ancient genomes indicate population replacement in Early Neolithic Britain" (S. Brace, 2019) que sitúa la aparición de los primeros neolíticos en 4000 BC. Revelan afinidad genética con individuos neolíticos ibéricos lo que indica que la gente neolítica de las islas Británicas fueron agricultores del Egeo que siguieron la ruta del Mediterráneo. Podemos apuntar algunas conclusiones:

1. Estos neolíticos tenían unos conocimientos importantes de agricultura, evidentemente, pero también de navegación, de arquitectura (para construir las estructuras megalíticas como Stonehenge), de astronomía (para alinearlas según el equinoccio y también para navegar), de geometría, y posiblemente de más materias.
2. Dado que hubo también una ruta terrestre desde Anatolia, esto demuestra que fue más exitosa la del Mediterráneo pues llegó antes a las islas Británicas.
3. Si llegaron a las islas, es muy probable que también llegaran a las costas atlánticas de Europa (norte de Francia, Alemania, etc.) y allí se re-encontraran con sus hermanos de la ruta terrestre.
4. El haplogrupo y de estos agricultores era fundamentalmente I y H (en Atapuerca H2 y I2a2a).
5. De la misma forma que hicieron la ruta hacia el NE, eran capaces de regresar y en ese flujo-reflujo crear una red de intercambio que tuvo tiempo de perfeccionarse hasta el 3000 BC.

Si alguien puede aportar, me interesa saber los puntos que son correctos y que podemos dejar por sentados y los que no lo son y tendré que eliminarlos.

Shadogowah
07-09-2021, 06:28 AM
Por seguir con el tema "De 4000 BC a 1000 BC de prehistoria en la península Ibérica", empezaría con un hecho. Hay un paper de nature titulado "Ancient genomes indicate population replacement in Early Neolithic Britain" (S. Brace, 2019) que sitúa la aparición de los primeros neolíticos en 4000 BC. Revelan afinidad genética con individuos neolíticos ibéricos lo que indica que la gente neolítica de las islas Británicas fueron agricultores del Egeo que siguieron la ruta del Mediterráneo. Podemos apuntar algunas conclusiones:

1. Estos neolíticos tenían unos conocimientos importantes de agricultura, evidentemente, pero también de navegación, de arquitectura (para construir las estructuras megalíticas como Stonehenge), de astronomía (para alinearlas según el equinoccio y también para navegar), de geometría, y posiblemente de más materias.
2. Dado que hubo también una ruta terrestre desde Anatolia, esto demuestra que fue más exitosa la del Mediterráneo pues llegó antes a las islas Británicas.
3. Si llegaron a las islas, es muy probable que también llegaran a las costas atlánticas de Europa (norte de Francia, Alemania, etc.) y allí se re-encontraran con sus hermanos de la ruta terrestre.
4. El haplogrupo y de estos agricultores era fundamentalmente I y H (en Atapuerca H2 y I2a2a).
5. De la misma forma que hicieron la ruta hacia el NE, eran capaces de regresar y en ese flujo-reflujo crear una red de intercambio que tuvo tiempo de perfeccionarse hasta el 3000 BC.

Si alguien puede aportar, me interesa saber los puntos que son correctos y que podemos dejar por sentados y los que no lo son y tendré que eliminarlos.

1. https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doggerland

No tengo claro que tuviesen conocimientos importantes de navegación. Para el 4000 BC Doggerland probablemente no era tierra emergida pero las mareas en el canal de la Mancha son hoy bestiales, quizás también entonces. Así que supongo que durante un tiempo habría pasos que permitirían cruzar arrastrando barcazas y quizás subirse a ellas y anclarlas cuando la marea subía. Un poco como ocurre hoy en el Mar de Frisia donde existen pasos que incluso permiten cruzar el mar con marea alta.

https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mar_de_Frisia

castrogonzalo
07-24-2021, 06:02 PM
1. https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doggerland

No tengo claro que tuviesen conocimientos importantes de navegación. Para el 4000 BC Doggerland probablemente no era tierra emergida pero las mareas en el canal de la Mancha son hoy bestiales, quizás también entonces. Así que supongo que durante un tiempo habría pasos que permitirían cruzar arrastrando barcazas y quizás subirse a ellas y anclarlas cuando la marea subía. Un poco como ocurre hoy en el Mar de Frisia donde existen pasos que incluso permiten cruzar el mar con marea alta.

https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mar_de_Frisia

Gracias por tu comentario @Shadogowah.

Incluso poniendo en duda la llegada por mar a las islas británicas, esos neolíticos vinieron navegando por todo el Mediterráneo y entraron a esas islas antes que los que siguieron la ruta terrestre, y en número suficiente como para marcar genéticamente a las poblaciones de esa época. Otro dato más, había comercio entre las islas y el continente, entre la península y Cerdeña, entre la península itálica y el territorio de lo que es hoy Túnez, entre Chipre y Anatolia, ... Poseían unos conocimientos de navegación que les permitía mover grandes cantidades de materiales y de personas de forma habitual, según yo lo veo.

Shadogowah
07-25-2021, 05:11 AM
Cómo digo, yo estoy casi seguro que las islas británicas estaban unidas al continente aunque fuese de forma intermitente.

Navegación en cualquier caso creo que implica abandonar la costa y perderla de vista. Seguramente sí costeaban (cabotaje), pero navegar lo que se dice navegar me parece más dudoso.

Respecto al Mediterráneo, la arqueología submarina nos ha desvelado la existencia de ciudades sumergidas. El nivel del mar era mucho más bajo y el perfil de las costas era muy diferente al de hoy. Ej. La mitad del Adriático era tierra emergida, no existía el estrecho de Mesina, Córcega y Cerdeña estaban unidas, etc...

El nivel del mar creo que siguió subiendo cuando está gente ya había llegado y quizás fuese una de las razones que los empujó a establecerse cada vez más hacia el interior.

Tengo que buscar algún mapa sobre cómo era el Mediterráneo oriental por entonces.

castrogonzalo
08-02-2021, 09:45 AM
Por seguir con el tema "De 4000 BC a 1000 BC de prehistoria en la península Ibérica", empezaría con un hecho. Hay un paper de nature titulado "Ancient genomes indicate population replacement in Early Neolithic Britain" (S. Brace, 2019) que sitúa la aparición de los primeros neolíticos en 4000 BC. Revelan afinidad genética con individuos neolíticos ibéricos lo que indica que la gente neolítica de las islas Británicas fueron agricultores del Egeo que siguieron la ruta del Mediterráneo. Podemos apuntar algunas conclusiones:

1. Estos neolíticos tenían unos conocimientos importantes de agricultura, evidentemente, pero también de navegación, de arquitectura (para construir las estructuras megalíticas como Stonehenge), de astronomía (para alinearlas según el equinoccio y también para navegar), de geometría, y posiblemente de más materias.
2. Dado que hubo también una ruta terrestre desde Anatolia, esto demuestra que fue más exitosa la del Mediterráneo pues llegó antes a las islas Británicas.
3. Si llegaron a las islas, es muy probable que también llegaran a las costas atlánticas de Europa (norte de Francia, Alemania, etc.) y allí se re-encontraran con sus hermanos de la ruta terrestre.
4. El haplogrupo y de estos agricultores era fundamentalmente I y H (en Atapuerca H2 y I2a2a).
5. De la misma forma que hicieron la ruta hacia el NE, eran capaces de regresar y en ese flujo-reflujo crear una red de intercambio que tuvo tiempo de perfeccionarse hasta el 3000 BC.

Si alguien puede aportar, me interesa saber los puntos que son correctos y que podemos dejar por sentados y los que no lo son y tendré que eliminarlos.

Sigo ...

En un foro de eupedia publicaron un mapa de celtas Hallstatt (800 BC) y le he añadido los resultados de individuos R1b con cultura IE o PIE que llegaron a principios del 3er milenio BC. A mi me parece que el resultado es interesante. Se aceptan otras opiniones ...

I have plotted 3000-2000 BCE R1b individuals in the @bicicleur map (Spain, France and Switzerland). Obviously, data fit the Hallstatt territory. In Iberia seems that these IE or PIE people control the Atlantic shore and the non-IE people control the Mediterranean shore.



Final eneolithic
l Y-Simbol2: R1bV88, 3248 BCE. Sardinia, Italy, MarcusNatCommun2020 (Blue Circle)

Early Chalcolithic
l Y-Simbol2: R1bV88, 2550 BCE. Barcelona, Spain, OlaladeNature2018 (Pink Circle)
l YTree: R1b-M12149, 2768 BCE. Croatia, MathiesonNature2018 (Pink star)

Late Chalcolithic (Red star)
l YTree: R1b-P310, 2350 BCE. Asturias, Spain, OlaladeScience2019
l YTree: R1b-U152, 2127 BCE. Burgos, Spain, OlaladeScience2019
l YTree: R1b-P312, 2417 BCE. Burgos, Spain, OlaladeScience2019
l YTree: R1b-L51, 2171 BCE. Burgos, Spain, OlaladeScience2019
l YTree: R1b-PF6658, 2250 BCE. Madrid, Spain, OlaladeNature2018
l YTree: R1b-P310, 2250 BCE. Madrid, Spain, OlaladeNature2018
l YTree: R1b-P312, 2250 BCE. Madrid, Spain, OlaladeScience2019
l YTree: R1b-P310, 2124 BCE. Ciudad Real, Spain, OlaladeScience2019

l YTree: R1b-Z195, 2387 BCE. Les Monges, France, SeguinOrlandoCurrBiol2021
l YTree: R1b-L151, 2220 BCE. Valros, France, BrunelPNAS2020
l YTree: R1b-M269, 2373 BCE. La Fare, France, OlaladeNature2018
l YTree: R1b-L151, 2248 BCE. Haute-Savoie, France, OlaladeNature2018

l YTree: R1b-P310, 2725 BCE. Auvernier, Switzerland, FurtwaenglerNatCommun2020
l YTree: R1b-M269, 2225 BCE. Sion-Petit-Chasseur, Switzerland, OlaladeNature2018
l YTree: R1b-M269, 2722 BCE. Burg?Chisee, Switzerland, FurtwaenglerNatCommun2020
l YTree: R1b-L151, 2682 BCE. Aesch, Switzerland, FurtwaenglerNatCommun2020

45847

mokordo
08-02-2021, 10:45 AM
Sigo ...

En un foro de eupedia publicaron un mapa de celtas Hallstatt (800 BC) y le he añadido los resultados de individuos R1b con cultura IE o PIE que llegaron a principios del 3er milenio BC. A mi me parece que el resultado es interesante. Se aceptan otras opiniones ...

I have plotted 3000-2000 BCE R1b individuals in the @bicicleur map (Spain, France and Switzerland). Obviously, data fit the Hallstatt territory. In Iberia seems that these IE or PIE people control the Atlantic shore and the non-IE people control the Mediterranean shore.



Final eneolithic
l Y-Simbol2: R1bV88, 3248 BCE. Sardinia, Italy, MarcusNatCommun2020 (Blue Circle)

Early Chalcolithic
l Y-Simbol2: R1bV88, 2550 BCE. Barcelona, Spain, OlaladeNature2018 (Pink Circle)
l YTree: R1b-M12149, 2768 BCE. Croatia, MathiesonNature2018 (Pink star)

Late Chalcolithic (Red star)
l YTree: R1b-P310, 2350 BCE. Asturias, Spain, OlaladeScience2019
l YTree: R1b-U152, 2127 BCE. Burgos, Spain, OlaladeScience2019
l YTree: R1b-P312, 2417 BCE. Burgos, Spain, OlaladeScience2019
l YTree: R1b-L51, 2171 BCE. Burgos, Spain, OlaladeScience2019
l YTree: R1b-PF6658, 2250 BCE. Madrid, Spain, OlaladeNature2018
l YTree: R1b-P310, 2250 BCE. Madrid, Spain, OlaladeNature2018
l YTree: R1b-P312, 2250 BCE. Madrid, Spain, OlaladeScience2019
l YTree: R1b-P310, 2124 BCE. Ciudad Real, Spain, OlaladeScience2019

l YTree: R1b-Z195, 2387 BCE. Les Monges, France, SeguinOrlandoCurrBiol2021
l YTree: R1b-L151, 2220 BCE. Valros, France, BrunelPNAS2020
l YTree: R1b-M269, 2373 BCE. La Fare, France, OlaladeNature2018
l YTree: R1b-L151, 2248 BCE. Haute-Savoie, France, OlaladeNature2018

l YTree: R1b-P310, 2725 BCE. Auvernier, Switzerland, FurtwaenglerNatCommun2020
l YTree: R1b-M269, 2225 BCE. Sion-Petit-Chasseur, Switzerland, OlaladeNature2018
l YTree: R1b-M269, 2722 BCE. Burg?Chisee, Switzerland, FurtwaenglerNatCommun2020
l YTree: R1b-L151, 2682 BCE. Aesch, Switzerland, FurtwaenglerNatCommun2020

45847

Si pudiéramos buscar todos o muchos esos samples en el G25 u otros datasheets de diferentes calculadores de Gedmatch, podríamos hacer un modelo sobre el tema.

Es un tema muy propio de Gaska (un antiguo miembro de este foro y que creo que está en Eupedia ahora), igual hasta ese post es suyo.

castrogonzalo
08-02-2021, 12:01 PM
Si pudiéramos buscar todos o muchos esos samples en el G25 u otros datasheets de diferentes calculadores de Gedmatch, podríamos hacer un modelo sobre el tema.

Es un tema muy propio de Gaska (un antiguo miembro de este foro y que creo que está en Eupedia ahora), igual hasta ese post es suyo.

Un afectuoso saludo, mokordo!

El mapa "céltico" lo subió el forero bicicleur. Yo le agregué los puntos con datos genéticos sacados de una página de indoeuropeo. No estoy seguro, pero posiblemente gaska esté baneado :ban:.

A mi me resulta muy interesante ver cómo los R1b estepeños de lengua IE (indoeuropea) o PIE (pre-indoeuropea PIE) van avanzando por europa desde el este. No hay rastro de ellos en el eneolithic y en el early chalcolithic sólo aparecen en Croacia. En el late chalcolithic inundan el centro de Europa, las islas británicas, Francia y nuestra península. Fíjate que su distribución no es uniforme en toda la península, sino que coincide con la zona celta y celtibérica de finales del 1er milenio BC. No hay restos ni en el País Vasco ni en Cataluña, por donde hipotéticamente deberían haber entrado a la península y que son territorios no-indoeuropeo. Cuando vi el mapa Hallstatt de toda Europa me decidí a añadirle los puntos y todo parece muy coherente. Está claro que los celtas de Hallastatt deberían ser descendientes de los IE y aquí se ve claro. Si tengo tiempo seguiré añadiendo los muchos datos que faltan pero ya te adelanto que todos quedan dentro de la zona amarilla del mapa. Fíjate también que esa conexión entre R1b's (Iberia-centro de Europa) está interrumpida por tierra pero ¿y por mar? en 2500 BC sabían navegar muy bien. El Arquero de Amesbury (Inglaterra, 2300 BC) había nacido en los Alpes y esa gente entraron en las islas y dieron un vuelco genético.

Las samples se saben cuáles son, de hecho yo puse las fuentes (Olalde 2018, Olalde 2019, Furtwaengler 2020, etc.) y se pueden buscar. Si me dices cómo, podría ayudarte a buscarlas en G25 para que hicieras el modelo. ;)

Shadogowah
08-02-2021, 12:04 PM
Muestras antiguas a cascoporro.

https://indo-european.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=e355625d5fbe46469cfdc85fce6eb04a

castrogonzalo
08-02-2021, 12:06 PM
Muestras antiguas a cascoporro.

https://indo-european.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=e355625d5fbe46469cfdc85fce6eb04a

¡De ahí las saqué yo! :beerchug:

castrogonzalo
08-02-2021, 12:17 PM
Muestras antiguas a cascoporro.

https://indo-european.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=e355625d5fbe46469cfdc85fce6eb04a


Como es interactivo, puedes jugar con las muestras.

Si tienes tiempo, prueba a apagar todas las capas, concéntrate en Europa y activa la capa ydna del early chalcolithic. Verás que no hay nada de R1b-IE ni en Iberia, ni en Francia, ni en las islas británicas. Ahora apaga esa capa y activa la de ydna del late chalcolithic, verás como se inunda todo de muestras R1b-IE.

Shadogowah
08-02-2021, 12:18 PM
Un afectuoso saludo, mokordo!

El mapa "céltico" lo subió el forero bicicleur. Yo le agregué los puntos con datos genéticos sacados de una página de indoeuropeo. No estoy seguro, pero posiblemente gaska esté baneado :ban:.

A mi me resulta muy interesante ver cómo los R1b estepeños de lengua IE (indoeuropea) o PIE (pre-indoeuropea PIE) van avanzando por europa desde el este. No hay rastro de ellos en el eneolithic y en el early chalcolithic sólo aparecen en Croacia. En el late chalcolithic inundan el centro de Europa, las islas británicas, Francia y nuestra península. Fíjate que su distribución no es uniforme en toda la península, sino que coincide con la zona celta y celtibérica de finales del 1er milenio BC. No hay restos ni en el País Vasco ni en Cataluña, por donde hipotéticamente deberían haber entrado a la península y que son territorios no-indoeuropeo. Cuando vi el mapa Hallstatt de toda Europa me decidí a añadirle los puntos y todo parece muy coherente. Está claro que los celtas de Hallastatt deberían ser descendientes de los IE y aquí se ve claro. Si tengo tiempo seguiré añadiendo los muchos datos que faltan pero ya te adelanto que todos quedan dentro de la zona amarilla del mapa. Fíjate también que esa conexión entre R1b's (Iberia-centro de Europa) está interrumpida por tierra pero ¿y por mar? en 2500 BC sabían navegar muy bien. El Arquero de Amesbury (Inglaterra, 2300 BC) había nacido en los Alpes y esa gente entraron en las islas y dieron un vuelco genético.

Las samples se saben cuáles son, de hecho yo puse las fuentes (Olalde 2018, Olalde 2019, Furtwaengler 2020, etc.) y se pueden buscar. Si me dices cómo, podría ayudarte a buscarlas en G25 para que hicieras el modelo. ;)

No se si estoy diciendo una perogrullada pero creo que llegaron costeando por mar desde el Mediterráneo (estos si) buscando bronce y estaño y que así es como penetraron por el sudeste de España y sur de Portugal (Cerro de la Virgen y Zambujal) unos cuantos siglos después ya se habrían extendido por toda Andalucía.

castrogonzalo
08-02-2021, 01:15 PM
No se si estoy diciendo una perogrullada pero creo que llegaron costeando por mar desde el Mediterráneo (estos si) buscando bronce y estaño y que así es como penetraron por el sudeste de España y sur de Portugal (Cerro de la Virgen y Zambujal) unos cuantos siglos después ya se habrían extendido por toda Andalucía.

Algunos datos sobre la navegación en 2500 BC. Esto lo escribí en otro foro.

Interesting news about prehistoric naviagation, a very important human discovery not always recognised. The log-boat (a boat made from a hollowed tree) was around 5.5 m length. Several logboats have been securely dated in Ireland as early as the Early Bronze Age (c.2500 BC). Some of them with about 12 m with a large crew of 10-12 men. Another type, sewn-plank boats were large boats, up to 18 m in length with room for a crew of 20 or more, and with a greater freeboard than logboats; overall they are likely to have been capable of successful seafaring journeys.

Como referencia, La Niña cruzó el Atlántico con 21 m de eslora y una tripulación de 20 hombres, 4000 años después. :eek:

Shadogowah
08-02-2021, 01:45 PM
Algunos datos sobre la navegación en 2500 BC. Esto lo escribí en otro foro.

Interesting news about prehistoric naviagation, a very important human discovery not always recognised. The log-boat (a boat made from a hollowed tree) was around 5.5 m length. Several logboats have been securely dated in Ireland as early as the Early Bronze Age (c.2500 BC). Some of them with about 12 m with a large crew of 10-12 men. Another type, sewn-plank boats were large boats, up to 18 m in length with room for a crew of 20 or more, and with a greater freeboard than logboats; overall they are likely to have been capable of successful seafaring journeys.

Como referencia, La Niña cruzó el Atlántico con 21 m de eslora y una tripulación de 20 hombres, 4000 años después. :eek:

Y con brújulas, astrolabios y conocimientos de cartografía (Y patrones de viento!) mucho más avanzados. (No se trata solo de tener buenos barcos).

Cruzar el Canal de la Mancha o estrecho de San Jorge es una cosa pero cruzar el Atlántico es ya otra cosa mucho más seria.

castrogonzalo
08-02-2021, 08:09 PM
I have plotted 3000-2000 BCE R1b individuals in the @bicicleur map (Spain, France and Switzerland). Obviously, data fit the Hallstatt territory. In Iberia seems that these IE or PIE people control the Atlantic shore and the non-IE people control the Mediterranean shore.


Mapa actualizado con datos de Europa:

45853

mokordo
08-03-2021, 09:53 AM
Para variar, un modelito antiguo, a ver quien gana en "bronze age invaders".

Podría ser el nombre de un videojuego...:P


Neolithic_Europe:Iberia_N,0.1239407,0.1755737,0.03 41921,-0.0626261,0.0768007,-0.0339317,-0.004439,-0.0011793,0.0618117,0.0996021,0.0021292,0.015586,-0.0343077,-0.0108723,-0.0189858,-0.0058929,0.0074029,0.001844,0.0048463,-0.0070036,0.002468,0.0035996,-0.008148,-0.0235909,9.3e-05
Neolithic_Europe:BGR_N,0.120368,0.183049,0.0082968 ,-0.086241,0.0510865,-0.0429492,0.00235,-0.002942,0.0388085,0.085742,0.0137622,0.0133382,-0.0244175,-0.0001377,-0.0350498,-0.0144855,0.0216762,0.0030408,0.007982,-0.0117242,-0.0129145,0.0094902,-0.0033585,-0.0052118,-0.005269
Neolithic_Europe:CZE_N,0.122929,0.1843185,0.019422 ,-0.0773585,0.064627,-0.0444835,-0.009165,0.001385,0.0488815,0.084102,0.001299,0.01 78345,-0.0246775,0.0060555,-0.027619,-0.011403,0.0042375,0.0032935,0.01169,-0.01507,-0.005553,0.010201,-0.012078,-0.0103625,-0.004012
Neolithic_Europe:GRC_N,0.118376,0.18178,-0.001131,-0.105622,0.057241,-0.051037,-0.00423,-0.003923,0.039064,0.090207,0.003735,0.013638,-0.019177,-0.007569,-0.046959,-0.004243,0.040028,0.003927,0.004022,-0.013506,-0.012228,0.014096,0.00037,0.001325,-0.004311
Neolithic_Europe:HUN_Starcevo_N,0.122246,0.1886854 ,0.0077688,-0.0985152,0.0593956,-0.0521526,-0.0032432,-0.0068304,0.0448726,0.0865622,0.008217,0.0126786,-0.0229534,0.0046514,-0.0378388,-0.0226466,0.0074318,0.002179,0.0110612,-0.0154824,-0.0138756,0.0108072,-0.0017254,-0.0052776,-0.0043348
Neolithic_Europe:ITA_Sardinia_N,0.1201974,0.174874 2,0.0429918,-0.0535534,0.0780454,-0.029172,-0.006392,0.0015692,0.0629932,0.094289,0.0031506,0. 0159756,-0.0350544,-0.0134594,-0.0193538,-0.0040042,0.0115,-0.0011148,0.0076926,-0.008329,0.0036184,0.003586,-0.015258,-0.0290884,0.0016286
Neolithic_Europe:ITA_N,0.1246362,0.1774638,0.01385 9,-0.0751782,0.0597805,-0.0377198,-0.0025262,-0.0014422,0.0414162,0.084694,0.0013802,0.0142372,-0.0270562,-0.00289,-0.026669,-0.0019558,0.0156135,0.0035475,0.0073848,-0.0041895,-0.002589,0.0029367,-0.0081343,-0.017141,0.0007482
Neolithic_Europe:ROU_N,0.126913,0.1848265,0.011125 ,-0.0999685,0.05878,-0.0541045,-0.00094,-0.004615,0.0459155,0.091574,0.0043845,0.013563,-0.027428,0.0013765,-0.0468235,-0.0113365,0.024838,0.0012035,0.0117525,-0.012318,-0.014662,0.0054405,-0.006532,0.0038555,-0.0070055
Neolithic_Europe:SRB_N,0.1277662,0.1822878,0.01074 8,-0.0957695,0.0574722,-0.0440648,-0.00094,-0.005769,0.039013,0.0868812,0.0036942,0.0131508,-0.022262,0.0014108,-0.0391552,-0.01369,0.0202748,0.000697,0.0124128,-0.0138505,-0.007331,0.0062138,-0.0083192,0.0020182,5.98e-05
Neolithic_Europe:Wales_N,0.12236,0.1675625,0.04940 25,-0.0421515,0.0829385,-0.0207775,-0.003995,-0.000808,0.0583915,0.085013,-0.002111,0.0109405,-0.031665,-0.0063305,-0.0109935,-0.00716,0.0065845,0.002217,-0.0023885,-0.004752,0.014911,0.006677,-0.0162075,-0.0409095,-0.001916
Neolithic_Europe:Scotland_N,0.1269127,0.1690178,0. 0542928,-0.0322677,0.0862828,-0.0224879,-0.0037679,0.0030922,0.0634297,0.0853533,-0.0002544,0.0123091,-0.0271157,-0.0115236,-0.0072611,0.0027269,0.0076274,0.0045017,0.0042653,-0.0041436,0.0120538,0.0032151,-0.0154018,-0.0339485,-0.0001358
Neolithic_Europe:England_N,0.1257112,0.1700446,0.0 558139,-0.0370732,0.0841866,-0.0225592,-0.0048307,0.0018717,0.0641522,0.0895791,0.0026342, 0.013388,-0.0261313,-0.0128294,-0.0092139,0.0046407,0.0148638,0.0027167,0.0030586,-0.000264,0.0108697,0.0025142,-0.014379,-0.031477,0.0003326
Bronze_Age_Invaders:AN10,0.1242948,0.0883510,0.043 6707,0.1151505,-0.0285283,0.0451246,0.0043710,-0.0021923,-0.0563668,-0.0732041,0.0018024,0.0009291,-0.0029287,-0.0225426,0.0358843,0.0144389,-0.0011735,-0.0042316,-0.0040350,0.0123809,-0.0037808,0.0000741,0.0072346,0.0193519,-0.0029337
Bronze_Age_Invaders::BN10,0.1160995,0.0872339,0.04 00881,0.1102730,-0.0310825,0.0437021,0.0032196,-0.0054228,-0.0573076,-0.0751905,-0.0004059,-0.0022330,-0.0009812,-0.0235335,0.0315685,0.0104348,-0.0031815,-0.0024704,-0.0011188,0.0094544,-0.0050411,0.0015704,0.0124357,0.0203281,-0.0051253
Levant:PPNB,0.0725625,0.1650235,-0.0309238,-0.1380835,0.0323138,-0.062541,-0.012103,-0.0141338,0.0735775,0.0367207,0.0194055,-0.0170098,0.036459,-0.000241,-0.021342,0.0067288,0.0089638,-0.0013935,-0.0054052,0.0192277,-0.0037435,0.007852,-0.0014175,-0.0062658,-0.0047002
North_Africa_Neolithic:MAR_EN+LN,-0.0759773,0.1200863,-0.0112193,-0.0894710,0.0378528,-0.0570333,-0.0535235,0.0151150,0.1169368,0.0292488,0.0211918,-0.0123268,0.0390605,-0.0375368,0.0368480,-0.0119330,0.0249358,-0.0347760,-0.0913508,0.0167893,-0.0282940,-0.0701110,0.0472043,-0.0099110,0.0087120
Ancient_Africa:CMR_Shum_Laka_3000BP,-0.6129375,0.0528075,0.013765,0.0272935,0.000769,-0.001813,0.1482915,-0.1137645,0.00542,0.004374,-0.001056,-0.0400145,-0.025272,0.0019955,0.008279,-0.0068285,0.005802,0.016153,-0.0067245,0.0010005,-0.001934,-0.0020405,-0.00456,0.000482,-0.006586
Ancient_Africa:CMR_Shum_Laka_8000BP,-0.602693,0.055346,0.0148965,0.0263245,-0.0064625,0.00502,0.1243205,-0.099919,0.0138055,-0.007016,-0.00065,-0.0242785,-0.0203665,-0.0052295,0.0021035,-0.00179,0.0127125,0.017356,-0.0011945,-0.0040645,-0.003494,-0.000371,0.0016025,-0.0009035,-0.0020955

mokordo
08-03-2021, 10:00 AM
Neolithic_Europe:Iberia_N,0.1239407,0.1755737,0.03 41921,-0.0626261,0.0768007,-0.0339317,-0.004439,-0.0011793,0.0618117,0.0996021,0.0021292,0.015586,-0.0343077,-0.0108723,-0.0189858,-0.0058929,0.0074029,0.001844,0.0048463,-0.0070036,0.002468,0.0035996,-0.008148,-0.0235909,9.3e-05
Neolithic_Europe:BGR_N,0.120368,0.183049,0.0082968 ,-0.086241,0.0510865,-0.0429492,0.00235,-0.002942,0.0388085,0.085742,0.0137622,0.0133382,-0.0244175,-0.0001377,-0.0350498,-0.0144855,0.0216762,0.0030408,0.007982,-0.0117242,-0.0129145,0.0094902,-0.0033585,-0.0052118,-0.005269
Neolithic_Europe:CZE_N,0.122929,0.1843185,0.019422 ,-0.0773585,0.064627,-0.0444835,-0.009165,0.001385,0.0488815,0.084102,0.001299,0.01 78345,-0.0246775,0.0060555,-0.027619,-0.011403,0.0042375,0.0032935,0.01169,-0.01507,-0.005553,0.010201,-0.012078,-0.0103625,-0.004012
Neolithic_Europe:GRC_N,0.118376,0.18178,-0.001131,-0.105622,0.057241,-0.051037,-0.00423,-0.003923,0.039064,0.090207,0.003735,0.013638,-0.019177,-0.007569,-0.046959,-0.004243,0.040028,0.003927,0.004022,-0.013506,-0.012228,0.014096,0.00037,0.001325,-0.004311
Neolithic_Europe:HUN_Starcevo_N,0.122246,0.1886854 ,0.0077688,-0.0985152,0.0593956,-0.0521526,-0.0032432,-0.0068304,0.0448726,0.0865622,0.008217,0.0126786,-0.0229534,0.0046514,-0.0378388,-0.0226466,0.0074318,0.002179,0.0110612,-0.0154824,-0.0138756,0.0108072,-0.0017254,-0.0052776,-0.0043348
Neolithic_Europe:ITA_Sardinia_N,0.1201974,0.174874 2,0.0429918,-0.0535534,0.0780454,-0.029172,-0.006392,0.0015692,0.0629932,0.094289,0.0031506,0. 0159756,-0.0350544,-0.0134594,-0.0193538,-0.0040042,0.0115,-0.0011148,0.0076926,-0.008329,0.0036184,0.003586,-0.015258,-0.0290884,0.0016286
Neolithic_Europe:ITA_N,0.1246362,0.1774638,0.01385 9,-0.0751782,0.0597805,-0.0377198,-0.0025262,-0.0014422,0.0414162,0.084694,0.0013802,0.0142372,-0.0270562,-0.00289,-0.026669,-0.0019558,0.0156135,0.0035475,0.0073848,-0.0041895,-0.002589,0.0029367,-0.0081343,-0.017141,0.0007482
Neolithic_Europe:ROU_N,0.126913,0.1848265,0.011125 ,-0.0999685,0.05878,-0.0541045,-0.00094,-0.004615,0.0459155,0.091574,0.0043845,0.013563,-0.027428,0.0013765,-0.0468235,-0.0113365,0.024838,0.0012035,0.0117525,-0.012318,-0.014662,0.0054405,-0.006532,0.0038555,-0.0070055
Neolithic_Europe:SRB_N,0.1277662,0.1822878,0.01074 8,-0.0957695,0.0574722,-0.0440648,-0.00094,-0.005769,0.039013,0.0868812,0.0036942,0.0131508,-0.022262,0.0014108,-0.0391552,-0.01369,0.0202748,0.000697,0.0124128,-0.0138505,-0.007331,0.0062138,-0.0083192,0.0020182,5.98e-05
Neolithic_Europe:Wales_N,0.12236,0.1675625,0.04940 25,-0.0421515,0.0829385,-0.0207775,-0.003995,-0.000808,0.0583915,0.085013,-0.002111,0.0109405,-0.031665,-0.0063305,-0.0109935,-0.00716,0.0065845,0.002217,-0.0023885,-0.004752,0.014911,0.006677,-0.0162075,-0.0409095,-0.001916
Neolithic_Europe:Scotland_N,0.1269127,0.1690178,0. 0542928,-0.0322677,0.0862828,-0.0224879,-0.0037679,0.0030922,0.0634297,0.0853533,-0.0002544,0.0123091,-0.0271157,-0.0115236,-0.0072611,0.0027269,0.0076274,0.0045017,0.0042653,-0.0041436,0.0120538,0.0032151,-0.0154018,-0.0339485,-0.0001358
Neolithic_Europe:England_N,0.1257112,0.1700446,0.0 558139,-0.0370732,0.0841866,-0.0225592,-0.0048307,0.0018717,0.0641522,0.0895791,0.0026342, 0.013388,-0.0261313,-0.0128294,-0.0092139,0.0046407,0.0148638,0.0027167,0.0030586,-0.000264,0.0108697,0.0025142,-0.014379,-0.031477,0.0003326
Bronze_Age_Invaders:AN10,0.1242948,0.0883510,0.043 6707,0.1151505,-0.0285283,0.0451246,0.0043710,-0.0021923,-0.0563668,-0.0732041,0.0018024,0.0009291,-0.0029287,-0.0225426,0.0358843,0.0144389,-0.0011735,-0.0042316,-0.0040350,0.0123809,-0.0037808,0.0000741,0.0072346,0.0193519,-0.0029337
Bronze_Age_Invaders::BN10,0.1160995,0.0872339,0.04 00881,0.1102730,-0.0310825,0.0437021,0.0032196,-0.0054228,-0.0573076,-0.0751905,-0.0004059,-0.0022330,-0.0009812,-0.0235335,0.0315685,0.0104348,-0.0031815,-0.0024704,-0.0011188,0.0094544,-0.0050411,0.0015704,0.0124357,0.0203281,-0.0051253
Levant:PPNB,0.0725625,0.1650235,-0.0309238,-0.1380835,0.0323138,-0.062541,-0.012103,-0.0141338,0.0735775,0.0367207,0.0194055,-0.0170098,0.036459,-0.000241,-0.021342,0.0067288,0.0089638,-0.0013935,-0.0054052,0.0192277,-0.0037435,0.007852,-0.0014175,-0.0062658,-0.0047002
North_Africa_Neolithic:MAR_EN+LN,-0.0759773,0.1200863,-0.0112193,-0.0894710,0.0378528,-0.0570333,-0.0535235,0.0151150,0.1169368,0.0292488,0.0211918,-0.0123268,0.0390605,-0.0375368,0.0368480,-0.0119330,0.0249358,-0.0347760,-0.0913508,0.0167893,-0.0282940,-0.0701110,0.0472043,-0.0099110,0.0087120
Ancient_Africa:CMR_Shum_Laka_3000BP,-0.6129375,0.0528075,0.013765,0.0272935,0.000769,-0.001813,0.1482915,-0.1137645,0.00542,0.004374,-0.001056,-0.0400145,-0.025272,0.0019955,0.008279,-0.0068285,0.005802,0.016153,-0.0067245,0.0010005,-0.001934,-0.0020405,-0.00456,0.000482,-0.006586
Ancient_Africa:CMR_Shum_Laka_8000BP,-0.602693,0.055346,0.0148965,0.0263245,-0.0064625,0.00502,0.1243205,-0.099919,0.0138055,-0.007016,-0.00065,-0.0242785,-0.0203665,-0.0052295,0.0021035,-0.00179,0.0127125,0.017356,-0.0011945,-0.0040645,-0.003494,-0.000371,0.0016025,-0.0009035,-0.0020955

Target: gixajo_scaled
Distance: 2.2469% / 0.02246910
64.6 Neolithic_Europe
32.0 Bronze_Age_Invaders
3.4 North_Africa_Neolithic

Target: gixajo_dad_scaled
Distance: 2.0265% / 0.02026504
64.8 Neolithic_Europe
29.8 Bronze_Age_Invaders
4.4 North_Africa_Neolithic
1.0 Ancient_Africa

Target: gixajo_mom_scaled
Distance: 3.1374% / 0.03137402
64.8 Neolithic_Europe
33.4 Bronze_Age_Invaders
1.8 North_Africa_Neolithic

Shadogowah
08-03-2021, 10:14 AM
Target: gixajo_scaled
Distance: 2.2469% / 0.02246910
64.6 Neolithic_Europe
32.0 Bronze_Age_Invaders
3.4 North_Africa_Neolithic

Target: gixajo_dad_scaled
Distance: 2.0265% / 0.02026504
64.8 Neolithic_Europe
29.8 Bronze_Age_Invaders
4.4 North_Africa_Neolithic
1.0 Ancient_Africa

Target: gixajo_mom_scaled
Distance: 3.1374% / 0.03137402
64.8 Neolithic_Europe
33.4 Bronze_Age_Invaders
1.8 North_Africa_Neolithic

Target: Shadogowah_scaled
Distance: 2.2388% / 0.02238782
61.0 Neolithic_Europe
29.8 Bronze_Age_Invaders
9.2 North_Africa_Neolithic

Pedro Ruben
08-03-2021, 10:19 AM
Target: Pedro_scaled
Distance: 2.8212% / 0.02821165
54.6 Neolithic_Europe
34.4 Bronze_Age_Invaders
9.0 North_Africa_Neolithic
2.0 Ancient_Africa

Target: Dad_scaled
Distance: 2.8383% / 0.02838337
56.2 Neolithic_Europe
30.6 Bronze_Age_Invaders
10.4 North_Africa_Neolithic
2.8 Ancient_Africa

Target: Mom_scaled
Distance: 2.4742% / 0.02474222
59.0 Neolithic_Europe
32.8 Bronze_Age_Invaders
6.0 North_Africa_Neolithic
2.2 Ancient_Africa

alejandromb92
08-03-2021, 10:53 AM
Target: Alejandro_scaled
Distance: 2.0790% / 0.02079006
50.6 Neolithic_Europe
34.8 Bronze_Age_Invaders
7.2 North_Africa_Neolithic
6.6 Levant
0.8 Ancient_Africa

hantrolugharsts
08-03-2021, 10:55 AM
Target: hantro_scaled
Distance: 2.1369% / 0.02136872
61.4 Neolithic_Europe
32.2 Bronze_Age_Invaders
6.2 North_Africa_Neolithic
0.2 Ancient_Africa

Mis mapas Neolítico-Edad del Bronce

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-im-GCsfyh8U/YQcLKPvLa2I/AAAAAAAAGi8/mhWxZMF2s8E2QY0ZZX2hEi-VNhVbMiyXwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1223/mineNeolitico.jpeg
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-6TdTCY923xc/YQcRphGrRJI/AAAAAAAAGjE/aG7dgK5KVL8ZCZRCunUMtp39R_vniqzYgCLcBGAsYHQ/s1211/BronzeAgemio.jpeg
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Lts-c9m4YLc/YQcUv2B2oiI/AAAAAAAAGj8/zwZx599-B6kijPKeeLn8OCiCJXtZZHkigCLcBGAsYHQ/s1224/Latebronzeagemio.jpeg

mokordo
08-03-2021, 11:12 AM
Target: Alejandro_scaled
Distance: 2.0790% / 0.02079006
a

Tu Levant igual sube algo por tu parte italiana. Igual también tu "Bronze age Invaders" está en el rango alto de un Ibérico por lo mismo.¿Podría ser?

¿Dónde está el bilbaíno-irlandés cuando se le necesita? Me gustaría ver lo que saca en ese componente "Bronze Age...", suele salirle bastante alto.

Edit: Supongo que no hace falta decir que el Neolithic Europe es EEF+WHG, en diferentes proporciones según zona.

JJJ
08-03-2021, 12:03 PM
Target: Juan_scaled
Distance: 3.3099% / 0.03309861
60.6 Neolithic_Europe
33.2 Bronze_Age_Invaders
4.4 North_Africa_Neolithic
1.8 Ancient_Africa

castrogonzalo
08-03-2021, 04:18 PM
Para variar, un modelito antiguo, a ver quien gana en "bronze age invaders".

Podría ser el nombre de un videojuego...:P


Yo quiero jugar ... !!

Hazme un croquis sencillo con la explicación, plis ... :noidea:

luasits
08-03-2021, 05:29 PM
Distance: 3.7741% / 0.03774150
58.6 Neolithic_Europe
31.6 Bronze_Age_Invaders
9.8 North_Africa_Neolithic

Luso
08-03-2021, 05:54 PM
Target: Luso_scaled
Distance: 2.9556% / 0.02955576
59.2 Neolithic_Europe
31.8 Bronze_Age_Invaders
7.8 North_Africa_Neolithic
1.2 Ancient_Africa

alejandromb92
08-03-2021, 07:02 PM
Tu Levant igual sube algo por tu parte italiana. Igual también tu "Bronze age Invaders" está en el rango alto de un Ibérico por lo mismo.¿Podría ser?

¿Dónde está el bilbaíno-irlandés cuando se le necesita? Me gustaría ver lo que saca en ese componente "Bronze Age...", suele salirle bastante alto.

Edit: Supongo que no hace falta decir que el Neolithic Europe es EEF+WHG, en diferentes proporciones según zona.

6.6% es relativamente alto, tomando en cuenta los otros porcentajes no-europeos que me marca. Ciertamente viene por mi parte italiana, aqui a mas nadie le ha salido levantino hasta los momentos.

mokordo
08-03-2021, 07:30 PM
Yo quiero jugar ... !!

Hazme un croquis sencillo con la explicación, plis ... :noidea:

Pues en el github de vahaduo (en blanco) copias y pegas lo que posteé en "sources" , tus coordenadas G25 scaled en "target" y luego en "single" le das al botón con el nombre de tus coordenadas, y te sale el resultado, con la distancia del resultado, y una lista con los porcentajes de los componentes con los que te modela.

mokordo
08-03-2021, 07:40 PM
6.6% es relativamente alto, tomando en cuenta los otros porcentajes no-europeos que me marca. Ciertamente viene por mi parte italiana, aqui a mas nadie le ha salido levantino hasta los momentos.

https://i.imgur.com/47kHDZP.png

Y por pereza no miro griegos y balcánicos, pero supongo que les saldrá también, ya sabes, podemos considerarlo como una forma de indicar el componente "East Med" antiguo, y más usando una referencia tan antigua.

estesiquesabe
08-03-2021, 07:42 PM
La verdad es que no me fio mucho de mi raw con 23andme

Target: Xabier_scaled
Distance: 2.6000% / 0.02600019
56.0 Neolithic_Europe
39.0 Bronze_Age_Invaders
5.0 North_Africa_Neolithic

Target: Dad_scaled
Distance: 1.9591% / 0.01959102
61.0 Neolithic_Europe
36.0 Bronze_Age_Invaders
3.0 North_Africa_Neolithic

Target: Mom_scaled
Distance: 3.3294% / 0.03329410
57.4 Neolithic_Europe
33.4 Bronze_Age_Invaders
8.2 North_Africa_Neolithic
1.0 Ancient_Africa

mokordo
08-03-2021, 07:50 PM
La verdad es que no me fio mucho de mi raw con 23andme

a

Noté una oscilación en La Fuerza y supe que alguien que iba a dar un Bronze Age Invaders alto se iba a manifestar.

Siempre tendemos a pensar que las coordenadas de un hijo y sus padres deberían guardar la proporción en todos los componentes, a mí también me pasa con mis padres, en unos calculadores más que en otros, y en unos componentes más que en otros.

alejandromb92
08-03-2021, 08:13 PM
https://i.imgur.com/47kHDZP.png

Y por pereza no miro griegos y balcánicos, pero supongo que les saldrá también, ya sabes, podemos considerarlo como una forma de indicar el componente "East Med" antiguo, y más usando una referencia tan antigua.

Fijate que el promedio levantino en Sicilia seria de 24.1, si dividimos eso entre 4, da 6, muy cerca de lo que me da a mi. Bastante realista.


La verdad es que no me fio mucho de mi raw con 23andme

Target: Xabier_scaled
Distance: 2.6000% / 0.02600019
56.0 Neolithic_Europe
39.0 Bronze_Age_Invaders
5.0 North_Africa_Neolithic

Target: Dad_scaled
Distance: 1.9591% / 0.01959102
61.0 Neolithic_Europe
36.0 Bronze_Age_Invaders
3.0 North_Africa_Neolithic

Target: Mom_scaled
Distance: 3.3294% / 0.03329410
57.4 Neolithic_Europe
33.4 Bronze_Age_Invaders
8.2 North_Africa_Neolithic
1.0 Ancient_Africa

не волнуйтесь, ему легко можно доверять. Все они дают относительно одинаковый результат, так что да, вы именно такие. Да да.

https://c1.alamy.com/thumbs/dxb261/feb-16-1989-termez-uzbekistan-ru-a-smiling-soviet-soldier-of-the-103rd-dxb261.jpg

estesiquesabe
08-03-2021, 08:21 PM
Fijate que el promedio levantino en Sicilia seria de 24.1, si dividimos eso entre 4, da 6, muy cerca de lo que me da a mi. Bastante realista.



не волнуйтесь, ему легко можно доверять. Все они дают относительно одинаковый результат, так что да, вы именно такие. Да да.

[IMG]
Спасибо друг

https://i.gyazo.com/f0671a53d1f23c2a0787d1d03bc51c1d.jpg

mokordo
08-03-2021, 08:28 PM
Fijate que el promedio levantino en Sicilia seria de 24.1, si dividimos eso entre 4, da 6, muy cerca de lo que me da a mi. Bastante realista.



не волнуйтесь, ему легко можно доверять. Все они дают относительно одинаковый результат, так что да, вы именно такие. Да да.

MG]


Спасибо друг

G]

Почему вы вдруг заговорили по-русски? Здесь единственный R1a это я !!!

Slav as fuck.B)

mokordo
08-03-2021, 08:32 PM
Por cierto, ya que estamos aquí reunidos, FTDNA ofrece descuentos de verano, de hasta 50$.

Shadogowah
08-04-2021, 05:50 AM
Por cierto, ya que estamos aquí reunidos, FTDNA ofrece descuentos de verano, de hasta 50$.

Mis primos Luso y Estesiquesabe, haceos el BigY!

JJJ
08-04-2021, 11:48 AM
Por cierto, ya que estamos aquí reunidos, FTDNA ofrece descuentos de verano, de hasta 50$.

Ni ipari Emi yoo ni anfani lati pade awọn baba mi!

mokordo
08-04-2021, 12:07 PM
Ni ipari Emi yoo ni anfani lati pade awọn baba mi!

Pues ahorra!!!

Mira el K13 de YourDnaPortal que igual tienes coordenadas nuevas del K13 como yo, han actualizado cosillas.

Edit:Ahora he visto que significa lo que has puesto, de todas formas, lo de ahorrar siempre es un buen consejo.:biggrin1:

JJJ
08-04-2021, 12:17 PM
Pues ahorra!!!

Mira el K13 de YourDnaPortal que igual tienes coordenadas nuevas del K13 como yo, han actualizado cosillas.

Edit:Ahora he visto que significa lo que has puesto, de todas formas, lo de ahorrar siempre es un buen consejo.:biggrin1:

Si costase 250$ menos igual me lo haría, pero visto lo visto mas bien me tendrían que pagar ellos para expandir el árbol del que pertenezco.

Los cambios del K13 son irrelevantes con respecto a Gedmatch solo me da un poco más de Baltic y menos de North Atlantic.

mokordo
08-04-2021, 12:20 PM
Si costase 250$ menos igual me lo haría, pero visto lo visto mas bien me tendrían que pagar ellos para expandir el árbol del que pertenezco.

Los cambios del K13 son irrelevantes con respecto a Gedmatch solo me da un poco más de Baltic y menos de North Atlantic.

Entonces igual que a mí, el resto cambia pero poco.

De todas formas, 2% menos de North Atlantic y un 1% más de Baltic, tampoco es tan irrelevante.

Lo malo es que no tengo más que mi raw data descargado en YourDnaPortal, debería pagar si quiero subir los datos de mis padres.

JJJ
08-04-2021, 12:26 PM
Entonces igual que a mí, el resto cambia pero poco.

De todas formas, 2% menos de North Atlantic y un 1% más de Baltic, tampoco es tan irrelevante.

Lo malo es que no tengo más que mi raw data descargado en YourDnaPortal, debería pagar si quiero subir los datos de mis padres.

Esos cambios los míos son de menos del 1% si es que hubo.

alejandromb92
08-04-2021, 05:48 PM
Por cierto, ya que estamos aquí reunidos, FTDNA ofrece descuentos de verano, de hasta 50$.

Los precios, aun con descuento, son desorbitados para alguien que no tenga un bolsillo algo abultado. Yo, como ya hice el gasto en el YSEQ, lo que hare es testear cada clado nuevo que salga, se que con el FTDNA eso se va actualizando y tal pero bueno, si hubiese sabido que mi resultado iba a ser tan poco comun, no me iba por el YSEQ si no por este otro.

estesiquesabe
08-04-2021, 06:16 PM
Mis primos Luso y Estesiquesabe, haceos el BigY!
Yo me hare una secuencia del genoma completo en un tiempo

mokordo
08-04-2021, 08:17 PM
Los precios, aun con descuento, son desorbitados para alguien que no tenga un bolsillo algo abultado. Yo, como ya hice el gasto en el YSEQ, lo que hare es testear cada clado nuevo que salga, se que con el FTDNA eso se va actualizando y tal pero bueno, si hubiese sabido que mi resultado iba a ser tan poco comun, no me iba por el YSEQ si no por este otro.

Todavía tengo cargo de conciencia por haberme gastado ese dinero. no me lo recuerdes.:\

Gil Vicente
08-04-2021, 09:01 PM
Target: Gil_Vicente
Distance: 2.6929% / 0.02692943
59.0 Neolithic_Europe
34.8 Bronze_Age_Invaders
4.4 North_Africa_Neolithic
1.8 Ancient_Africa

castrogonzalo
08-05-2021, 06:57 AM
Un paper interesante:

"Bell Beaker cultural package in the East European periphery of the phenomenon: a case of ritual features in north-eastern Poland"
Dariusz Manasterski, Katarzyna Januszek, Adam Wawrusiewicz, and Aleksandra Klecha

Documenta Praehistorica XLVII (2020)

"In the presented case, itmost likely involved the arrival of a group (or groups) of BB people from the West, which brought ‘behaviour’ representing the BB cultural package. This is suggested by some of the artefacts characteristic for Western Europe, and in the case of the decorated slate plaquette/pendant, directly from the Iberian Peninsula, the only location where it has parallels."

Shadogowah
08-05-2021, 07:08 AM
Un paper interesante:

"Bell Beaker cultural package in the East European periphery of the phenomenon: a case of ritual features in north-eastern Poland"
Dariusz Manasterski, Katarzyna Januszek, Adam Wawrusiewicz, and Aleksandra Klecha

Documenta Praehistorica XLVII (2020)

"In the presented case, itmost likely involved the arrival of a group (or groups) of BB people from the West, which brought ‘behaviour’ representing the BB cultural package. This is suggested by some of the artefacts characteristic for Western Europe, and in the case of the decorated slate plaquette/pendant, directly from the Iberian Peninsula, the only location where it has parallels."

Reflujo.

J-Live
08-05-2021, 08:09 AM
Ni ipari Emi yoo ni anfani lati pade awọn baba mi!

Lmfao sorry to interrupt but how do you know Yoruba!? :lol:

castrogonzalo
08-05-2021, 08:33 AM
Reflujo.

¿Reflujo genético? Hay debate, pero personalmente me parece razonable, a falta de que se demuestre lo contrario.
¿Reflujo de la tecnología cerámica? Posible, pero no es lo más probable porque la datación BB más antigua es sobre 2800 BC en el estuario del Tajo.

alejandromb92
08-05-2021, 11:06 AM
¿Reflujo genético? Hay debate, pero personalmente me parece razonable, a falta de que se demuestre lo contrario.
¿Reflujo de la tecnología cerámica? Posible, pero no es lo más probable porque la datación BB más antigua es sobre 2800 BC en el estuario del Tajo.

Yo creo que independientemente de que la datacion mas antigua haya sido (hasta los momentos) en Iberia, esa cultura nace a las alturas del Bajo Rin y se extiende por alli, como coletazo occidental de los cordados.

Hasta que no me encuentren un L51 entre los Yamnaya, no caere en la teoria de la expansion Yamnaya a Occidente. Me pongo negacionista como los anti-vacunas y anti-calentamiento global.

castrogonzalo
08-05-2021, 11:51 AM
Yo creo que independientemente de que la datacion mas antigua haya sido (hasta los momentos) en Iberia, esa cultura nace a las alturas del Bajo Rin y se extiende por alli, como coletazo occidental de los cordados.

Hasta que no me encuentren un L51 entre los Yamnaya, no caere en la teoria de la expansion Yamnaya a Occidente. Me pongo negacionista como los anti-vacunas y anti-calentamiento global.

Si la datación más antigua fuera en el Bajo Rin, ni Masantín el torero discutiría que ahí surgió el BB. ¿Porque los ibéricos no tienen crédito?
Mi hipótesis es que surge en el SW de Europa (y cuidado no haya sido en Marruecos) antes de que llegaran los estepeños R1b-IE, esos de los cordados. De aquí se expandió hacia el Centro y el NE de Europa, gracias a la red marítima de los neolíticos, y ahí se mezcla con los cordados. Mira este mapa de gente del early chalcolithic. Añádele el flujo y reflujo al gusto.
45921
y en los viajes de vuelta llegan los R1b-IE, como en este mapa con gente del late chalcolithic:
45922

Yo no soy negacionista respecto al avance estepeño pero créeme que si se confirma que el L51 es del Oeste, lo voy a celebrar contigo :beerchug:

mokordo
08-05-2021, 12:09 PM
Lmfao sorry to interrupt but how do you know Yoruba!? :lol:

Because we, Spanish people, are black people, as Yorubas are.:beerchug:

And JJJ even more!!!

Shadogowah
08-05-2021, 12:34 PM
¿Reflujo genético? Hay debate, pero personalmente me parece razonable, a falta de que se demuestre lo contrario.
¿Reflujo de la tecnología cerámica? Posible, pero no es lo más probable porque la datación BB más antigua es sobre 2800 BC en el estuario del Tajo.

Te iba a contestar pero ya lo haces tu abajo.

Puestos a elucubrar, yo creo posibles ambos.

Un reflujo genético con R1b-DF27 ya nacidos, criados y engordados en Iberia refluyendo hacia el continente. Queremos ver el progreso de los indoeuropeos atravesando Francia y cruzando los Pirineos desde el norte pero como ya hemos hablado, quizás entraron por el levante y el sur. Encontraron recursos metalúrgicos muy valiosos que los hizo poderosos y fueron colonizando la península de sur a norte quizás cruzando los Pirineos justo en la dirección contraria.

Luego, respecto a la cosa cultural, creo que hay elementos de la cultura BB que paracen ser producto de una hibridación típicamente ibérica.

alejandromb92
08-05-2021, 12:35 PM
Si la datación más antigua fuera en el Bajo Rin, ni Masantín el torero discutiría que ahí surgió el BB. ¿Porque los ibéricos no tienen crédito?
Mi hipótesis es que surge en el SW de Europa (y cuidado no haya sido en Marruecos) antes de que llegaran los estepeños R1b-IE, esos de los cordados. De aquí se expandió hacia el Centro y el NE de Europa, gracias a la red marítima de los neolíticos, y ahí se mezcla con los cordados. Mira este mapa de gente del early chalcolithic. Añádele el flujo y reflujo al gusto.
45921
y en los viajes de vuelta llegan los R1b-IE, como en este mapa con gente del late chalcolithic:
45922

Yo no soy negacionista respecto al avance estepeño pero créeme que si se confirma que el L51 es del Oeste, lo voy a celebrar contigo :beerchug:

No es la primera vez que erroneamente asocio la cultura con la expansion genetica. Tienes razon en todo lo que has dicho, la cultura del Vaso Campaniforme se forma y se expande (muy probablemente) justo como lo has planteado. Yo me referia mas que todo es en lo que se asocia como genetica Bell Beaker, esa de R1b, que se extiende desde el Bajo Rin. En algunos mapas se distingue entre Vaso Campaniforme Norte (British Bell Beaker) y Vasco Campaniforme Sur (Proto-Bell Beaker), para diferenciar un poco el tema de la genetica y la expansion cultural, creo que es la mejor manera.