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seferhabahir
04-13-2014, 03:03 AM
The 42 high-reliability SNPs that were found in my test results (labeled FGC11962 - FGC12003 and likely downstream from S9294) are now in ybrowse, courtesy of Astrid Krahn at YSEQ. Of those 42 SNPs, 23 appear to be able to have primers developed for them. However, there is a huge likelihood that these are all indicative of the 251-11EE cluster and, therefore, likely not shared by any Z251 people outside of 251-11EE. To date, I don't see anyone with Big Y results having them. Since these SNPs are likely downstream from S9294, they would also not be seen in anyone who is L555+. But when kenmunn gets his FGC results back (soon, we hope) we will see what turns up.

kenmunn
04-13-2014, 10:28 PM
The 42 high-reliability SNPs that were found in my test results (labeled FGC11962 - FGC12003 and likely downstream from S9294) are now in ybrowse, courtesy of Astrid Krahn at YSEQ. Of those 42 SNPs, 23 appear to be able to have primers developed for them. However, there is a huge likelihood that these are all indicative of the 251-11EE cluster and, therefore, likely not shared by any Z251 people outside of 251-11EE. To date, I don't see anyone with Big Y results having them. Since these SNPs are likely downstream from S9294, they would also not be seen in anyone who is L555+. But when kenmunn gets his FGC results back (soon, we hope) we will see what turns up.

Sorry but I'm delayed again. My DNA is apparently so old that it can't make it all the way to BGI in satisfactory condition! I have re-spit and re sent yet again and am now shown as batch # 9 in process. I don't know that it is actually at BGI or is receiving geriatric care by Justin before being sent on the trip. He mentioned some type of processing for some of the DNA samples that have a history of being problematic.

seferhabahir
04-15-2014, 10:32 PM
I'm taking a look at the FGC analysis files for these two kits

Harrington (Z251>S11556>S9294)
Yurzditsky (Z251>S11556>S9294)

and observed that both kits show positive results (reliability varies) for

09936670 C>A (PF362+)
15210689 G>A (FGC11986+)

For reference
NA12340 (R-DF13) tested negative for PF362
NA11831 (R-Z251) tested negative for S9294 and FGC11986

FGC shows no known public kits with these two SNPs, so they may both be below S9294. I can't find a reference anywhere for a positive result for PF362, but obviously a Sardinian had one. I don't know if Big Y tests these locations, but for anyone S9294+ (or S11556+) from Big Y it would be worth looking at these locations in their BAM file.

seferhabahir
04-19-2014, 07:37 PM
FGC11986 is now available as a stand-alone SNP test from YSEQ and might be considered by anyone who is Z251. It looks like there are two S9294 people separated by a large genetic distance (myself and Harrington) positive for it. It may or may not be below S9294. This seems to be the only potential common SNP since I could not find any of my other private SNPs in Harrington's FGC Full Y analysis, nor could I find any of Harrington's private SNPs in my FGC Full Y analysis. Wish we had Munn's results in hand.

There is also a custom test of 23 of my private FGC SNPs (the ones for which primers could be created) plus S9294 available from YSEQ but that would likely NOT be of interest unless you are in the 251-11EE cluster. I'm guessing most of those are SNPs on the 251-11EE ancestral line and none of them (except perhaps FGC11986) would be shared with anyone outside the cluster. I asked YSEQ to develop this custom package for 251-11EE to help determine when L583 split up the cluster. I'm getting a non-L583 person to order it.

seferhabahir
04-26-2014, 03:23 PM
Sorry but I'm delayed again. My DNA is apparently so old that it can't make it all the way to BGI in satisfactory condition! I have re-spit and re sent yet again and am now shown as batch # 9 in process. I don't know that it is actually at BGI or is receiving geriatric care by Justin before being sent on the trip. He mentioned some type of processing for some of the DNA samples that have a history of being problematic.


Well, when you eventually get them there are now more than 80 named SNPs that might be at or below S9294, since I now have 61 (19 more were found during a subsequent analysis in addition to the first batch of 41) and Harrington has 23. I guess we need to see if you are S11556 or S9294 as well. Your day will come.

kenmunn
04-26-2014, 08:33 PM
Well, when you eventually get them there are now more than 80 named SNPs that might be at or below S9294, since I now have 61 (19 more were found during a subsequent analysis in addition to the first batch of 41) and Harrington has 23. I guess we need to see if you are S11556 or S9294 as well. Your day will come.

There are a group of about 20 other potential testers who have the same STR pattern as I in our surname project. I hope to get a panel from Y-SEQ after getting my results so that we can determine different subgroups. Hope to have similar success to you.

kenmunn
05-07-2014, 06:34 PM
Sample resting on site at BGI and hopefully cooperating with the analysis process this time. Looks like it will be around mid-September before I get to smile and announce the birth of any new SNPs. Beginning to feel like Sarah....

seferhabahir
05-08-2014, 03:05 PM
Sample resting on site at BGI and hopefully cooperating with the analysis process this time. Looks like it will be around mid-September before I get to smile and announce the birth of any new SNPs. Beginning to feel like Sarah....

You could consider testing S9294 for only $25 at YSEQ while you are waiting just to see if you are...

kenmunn
05-08-2014, 04:31 PM
You could consider testing S9294 for only $25 at YSEQ while you are waiting just to see if you are...

Just ordered S9294. Maybe I'll have some satisfaction while waiting for the big one.

seferhabahir
05-30-2014, 04:43 AM
Just ordered S9294. Maybe I'll have some satisfaction while waiting for the big one.

FGC Batch 9 results looks like October 2014 based on a recent post. Any news on your S9294 YSEQ test?

kenmunn
05-30-2014, 10:04 PM
FGC Batch 9 results looks like October 2014 based on a recent post. Any news on your S9294 YSEQ test?

Not yet, still waiting almost patiently.

brianthebold9
05-31-2014, 04:01 PM
Hello I am in signature 251-1130, do you know anything about this group. how many signature groups are associated with 251.

eastcarolinatarheel
06-07-2014, 01:27 PM
seferhabahir -

I received my FGC11986 from YSEQ and I am derived (A) which backs up my Big Y result. They approximate it as R-L21 below S9294. As you recall, it was a low-confidence call in my Big Y, but it looks like YSEQ has confirmed it.

seferhabahir
06-08-2014, 05:01 AM
seferhabahir -

I received my FGC11986 from YSEQ and I am derived (A) which backs up my Big Y result. They approximate it as R-L21 below S9294. As you recall, it was a low-confidence call in my Big Y, but it looks like YSEQ has confirmed it.

Rickwood (kit 196158) also has this SNP on order from YSEQ and perhaps he will also come back derived for FGC11986. It may be equivalent to S9294, above it or below it. We won't really know until some others who are S9294 or S11556 are confirmed negative or positive. Still, it is an interesting data point. It does not show up in Rickwood's FGC analysis of his Big Y, but he may come back positive anyway. We'll see. This SNP is defined in my FGC results as very high confidence (i.e., it appears to be a solid SNP). We could also get Crawford who is S11556+ but S9294- to test for it to see if he comes back positive or negative.

YSEQ approximates it as below S9294 because that's how they categorized all my new SNPs. However, since you have this one also, it may not be below S9294. More results from someone who is S11556+ but S9294- will help better define it.

seferhabahir
06-08-2014, 05:07 AM
FYI,

Ybrowse now shows the following data for FGC11986 (there have been three people tested for this, and all three are positive). So there is at least one other person derived. I believe it is the person that ordered the package of Z251_11EE SNPs so it would make sense that this person would also be positive for FGC11986.

count_derived: 3
count_tested: 3

kenmunn
06-08-2014, 04:41 PM
FGC Batch 9 results looks like October 2014 based on a recent post. Any news on your S9294 YSEQ test?

Just got the results in from Astrid a few minutes ago:
446 FGC10343 ChrY 6655119 6655124 ins-
446 S9294 ChrY 6655208 6655208 A-

Looks like I'm stuck at Z251 until batch #9 results come back.

Peter
06-08-2014, 08:24 PM
Gentlemen, I would appreciate some advice. I am FT 62937, Z251+ , and as far as I know, of Scottish descent for at least 300+ years.

My STR markers are only to the 25 level, since these were all that were available at the time. I would like to make more progress but I have no information at all about 11556, S9294, FGC11986, or any of the other SNPs downstream of Z251, apart from 555 and 583 which seem to be quite far downstream.

My question is how I should spend limited resources, to increase STR testing to 67, or to continue down the SNP route?

My uninformed gut feeling is that the SNP route will take me closer to my objective of finding out how my family name connects with the clan of the same name and possible Caithness, Viking or Normandy origins. Furthermore, my 25 markers rarely find close matches and it seems that certain markers are off-modal for most groupings. My naÔve thought to date is that if, at 25 markers, there is differentiation, why do I need more resolution?

On the other hand, I recognise that researchers tend to dismiss candidates with limited STR data because they do not contribute much to the bigger picture.

As a general comment, there may be many people in my position who followed the STR marker testing followed by FTDNA deep clade testing, then, finding themselves as L21, have spent money to find the SNP downstream of DF13 to which they belong. The people who did this now find themselves in a position where there is almost no information on Z251 sub-clades to provide an informed opinion on how to proceed. This lack of information on STR /SNP fingerprints and geographical origins must cause possible candidates to defer further testing, thus holding up the general progress of understanding.

I suppose the bottom line of this request is what test should I invest in next and what is the reasoning behind that?

eastcarolinatarheel
06-10-2014, 12:34 AM
Hi Peter.

Some folks have different opinions on the best approach, but if you have limited funds for DNA testing then my suggestion would be to test out to 67 and then eventually 111 markers before doing further SNP testing. At this time, the relative positions of some of the SNPs coming out of the next-generation sequencing tests have not been determined. Thus, in the interim, I would suggest the STR testing. You may find that you match one of the STR groups which would point you toward one of the new SNPs. You could then always test one or more SNPs individually. As you may also know, the FTDNA tree is a mess right now so this would also give time for that to be worked out. It's also possible they may come out with a newer version of their Deep Clade test at some point so that's another reason to do the STR upgrade now and then wait on the additional SNP testing. I am a big proponent of SNP testing, but after one has upgraded to at least 67 markers.

Just my two cents.

eastcarolinatarheel
06-10-2014, 12:39 AM
We could also get Crawford who is S11556+ but S9294- to test for it to see if he comes back positive or negative.

Are you in touch with Crawford? Do you think he would order it? That would be key to helping determine the position if he's S9294-.

seferhabahir
06-10-2014, 01:54 AM
Are you in touch with Crawford? Do you think he would order it? That would be key to helping determine the position if he's S9294-.

We should wait to see if Rickwood who is S9294+ comes back negative for FGC11986 because that would indicate FGC11986 is below S9294 and there would be no need to test Crawford.

[Edit: I just found out that Rickwood is indeed FGC11986+ so the next steps would be to see if Crawford or someone else that is S9294- tests positive]

seferhabahir
06-10-2014, 02:25 AM
Just got the results in from Astrid a few minutes ago:

446 S9294 ChrY 6655208 6655208 A-

Looks like I'm stuck at Z251 until batch #9 results come back.

Well, you can wait until October but could consider now ordering FGC11986 from YSEQ which we know is below Z251 and shared by at least three S9294+ people. You might be positive for this one, and if you are, then we would know it is above S9294. I'm sure YSEQ can turn the result around quickly since they already have your DNA on hand.

seferhabahir
06-10-2014, 08:15 AM
Gentlemen, I would appreciate some advice. I am FT 62937, Z251+ , and as far as I know, of Scottish descent for at least 300+ years.

...

I suppose the bottom line of this request is what test should I invest in next and what is the reasoning behind that?

I think I would agree with Charles that if you have not tested to 67 markers, that might be your best option to see if you line up at all with anyone else in Z251. If, as you say, you don't really line up well with anyone even at 25 markers, and you want start down the SNP testing route instead, you could spend $75 and test for S11556, S9294, and FGC11986 at YSEQ. These SNPs have been found in some pretty far flung Z251 testers. SNP testing is good for ancient ancestries several thousand years in the past, but if you are more interested in your relationship to more recent clans, Vikings, and Normans, having 67 STR markers might be more useful for this. In summary, STRs are good for recent genealogy, SNPs are good for ancient history.

kenmunn
06-12-2014, 07:30 PM
Well, you can wait until October but could consider now ordering FGC11986 from YSEQ which we know is below Z251 and shared by at least three S9294+ people. You might be positive for this one, and if you are, then we would know it is above S9294. I'm sure YSEQ can turn the result around quickly since they already have your DNA on hand.

Overcoming my frugal roots I finally sprung for a FGC11986 so that we can know a little earlier if it is above or below S9294. <sigh>

kenmunn
07-25-2014, 03:04 PM
From FGC: <We expect that the final analytical reports for your data should be completed by August 1. BGI has completed the sequencing and we will need a few days to complete the analyses and transfer the data,>

A few more days and there should be more Z251 data to analyze. This is from ftdna kit# 139697. Any other known Z251 still in either the FGC or Big-Y pipeline?

seferhabahir
07-27-2014, 06:18 PM
From FGC: <We expect that the final analytical reports for your data should be completed by August 1. BGI has completed the sequencing and we will need a few days to complete the analyses and transfer the data,>

A few more days and there should be more Z251 data to analyze. This is from ftdna kit# 139697. Any other known Z251 still in either the FGC or Big-Y pipeline?

Very, cool. Much better than waiting until October. I don't of any other Z251 people in the FGC queue, but there are three Z251 in the Big Y pipeline, two are in 251-11EE, the third is not.

kenmunn
07-30-2014, 08:18 PM
Results are back for kit 139697 aka 0ANEE from FGC after more than a year of "gestation"!!!! Excited that the results are in, but pretty clueless of how to actually read them...

seferhabahir
07-30-2014, 08:59 PM
I'll try to take a look at your results and see what I can find...

You came out as a FGC13899+, a SNP under Z251. You also appear to be negative for A241 which means you would end up in the B. Z251>FGC13899* grouping in the R1b-Z251 and Subclades Project with N112316 (Dorr).

You have 43 novel variants under FGC13899 and share some of them with a few other people in the public human genome databases.

You share FGC18229, FGC18232 and FGC18233 with NA11831 (a R-Z251 American from Utah with Western European ancestry).

You share FGC18230 with HG01885 (an African Caribbean in Barbados E-M4217, this is likely a recurrent SNP, but FGC named it as part of your group of novel SNPs).

You share FGC18231 with HG01305 (a Puerto Rican in Puerto Rico E-Z5973, this is likely a recurrent SNP, but FGC named it as part of your group of novel SNPs).

seferhabahir
07-31-2014, 12:29 AM
Any idea who kit 339358 (ancestor Wilkinson Godwin) in the Z251 project is?

Certainly he is not related at all to kit 139697 (ancestor Nathan Godwin).

seferhabahir
07-31-2014, 12:42 AM
You have 43 novel variants under FGC13899 and share some of them with a few other people in the public human genome databases.


So, if I use the current best guess from Michal for SNP counting of 88 years per high-reliability FGC SNP, this FGC13899 line you are in diverged from the other lines in Z251 perhaps 4,000 years ago. Your GD at 111 markers with Dorr the other FGC3899*, which is something like 28 or so, is pretty consistent with that. You would be closer to NA11831, but probably not by much. We need to find you some more recent relatives.

kenmunn
07-31-2014, 02:23 PM
No, I can see that kit 339358 is in the Goodwin/Godwin Project but his "unassigned" group is fairly diverse, unlike the homogeneous Group 2 Godwins who have some connection back to NC. Pre-American connections for Group 2 are unknown at this point but with a fairly common oral history of "Scot-Irish" lineage. That term described a fairly diverse group of folks however, including many who originated in other parts of the UK.

BobtheRancher
09-16-2014, 10:18 PM
So, if I use the current best guess from Michal for SNP counting of 88 years per high-reliability FGC SNP, this FGC13899 line you are in diverged from the other lines in Z251 perhaps 4,000 years ago. Your GD at 111 markers with Dorr the other FGC3899*, which is something like 28 or so, is pretty consistent with that. You would be closer to NA11831, but probably not by much. We need to find you some more recent relatives.

I just read this conversation. I am kit #N112316 aka DORR in a specific category of Z251 FGC13899 as shown on the Little Scottish Cluster. But, my closest relative appears to be the kit discussed above, 139697 aka 0ANEE. But I donít see this kit in the FTDNA Z251 or FGC13899 Projects, nor in the Little Scottish Cluster. Do I have the right kit #? Perhaps, OANEE wants to remain private. Anyway, I would like to find out more info as to my downstream SNPs as listed by FGC and I am not sure how to dig in further. As best I know my fatherís lineage is from Bavaria in the early 1800s. Honestly, I am quite impressed with seferhabahirís skills in the above analysis especially with searching the public human genome databases. Thanks for your time in reading this.

seferhabahir
09-17-2014, 07:16 AM
I just read this conversation. I am kit #N112316 aka DORR in a specific category of Z251 FGC13899 as shown on the Little Scottish Cluster. But, my closest relative appears to be the kit discussed above, 139697 aka 0ANEE. But I donít see this kit in the FTDNA Z251 or FGC13899 Projects, nor in the Little Scottish Cluster. Do I have the right kit #? Perhaps, OANEE wants to remain private. Anyway, I would like to find out more info as to my downstream SNPs as listed by FGC and I am not sure how to dig in further. As best I know my fatherís lineage is from Bavaria in the early 1800s. Honestly, I am quite impressed with seferhabahirís skills in the above analysis especially with searching the public human genome databases. Thanks for your time in reading this.

Bob,

Kit 139697 Godwin is in grouping B1. Z251>FGC13899* of the FTDNA Z251 and Subclades project along with you. Take a look at Chris McCown's latest NGS_Z251_Downstream on the Yahoo L21 discussion pages and you will see Dorr N112316 and Godwin 0ANEE in the first two columns (although I don't know if your FGC named SNPs are in there yet). As I mentioned, these two kits are not very closely related in time based on the GD between the two kits. Even though you are both FGC13899* it is really two separate lines as you can see from the number of unique SNPs for N112316 and 139697/0ANEE below FGC13899.

BobtheRancher
09-17-2014, 03:29 PM
Bob,

Kit 139697 Godwin is in grouping B1. Z251>FGC13899* of the FTDNA Z251 and Subclades project along with you. Take a look at Chris McCown's latest NGS_Z251_Downstream on the Yahoo L21 discussion pages and you will see Dorr N112316 and Godwin 0ANEE in the first two columns (although I don't know if your FGC named SNPs are in there yet). As I mentioned, these two kits are not very closely related in time based on the GD between the two kits. Even though you are both FGC13899* it is really two separate lines as you can see from the number of unique SNPs for N112316 and 139697/0ANEE below FGC13899.

Thanks...greatly appreciated! It appears that the few of us FGC13899 (Pierce, Richards, Sanchez, etc.) are not even that closely related to each other. I will have to wait for more people to test out FGC13899 and for more ancient DNA to be sequenced! Thanks again. Bob

kenmunn
09-17-2014, 09:15 PM
Thanks...greatly appreciated! It appears that the few of us FGC13899 (Pierce, Richards, Sanchez, etc.) are not even that closely related to each other. I will have to wait for more people to test out FGC13899 and for more ancient DNA to be sequenced! Thanks again. Bob

Bob, my results haven't made it on to Alex's list yet apparently because he is so busy. The results came in at the end of July which shows the following novel SNPs below FGC13899. 26 are at 100% quality level and the rest range between 94.8 to 99.7% with most being around 98%:
#SNP
FGC18234
FGC18235
FGC18236
FGC18237
FGC18238
FGC18239
FGC18240
FGC18241
FGC18242
FGC18243
FGC18244
FGC18245
FGC18246
FGC18247
FGC18248
FGC18249
FGC18250
FGC18251
FGC18252
FGC18253
FGC18254
FGC18255
FGC18256
FGC18257
FGC18258
FGC18259
FGC18260
FGC18261
FGC18262
FGC18263
FGC18264
FGC18265
FGC18266
FGC18267
FGC18268
FGC18269
FGC18270
FGC18271
FGC18272
FGC18273
FGC18274
FGC18275
FGC18276

BobtheRancher
09-18-2014, 02:05 PM
Bob, my results haven't made it on to Alex's list yet apparently because he is so busy. The results came in at the end of July which shows the following novel SNPs below FGC13899. 26 are at 100% quality level and the rest range between 94.8 to 99.7% with most being around 98%:
#SNP
FGC18234
FGC18235
FGC18236
FGC18237
FGC18238
FGC18239
FGC18240
FGC18241
FGC18242
FGC18243
FGC18244
FGC18245
FGC18246
FGC18247
FGC18248
FGC18249
FGC18250
FGC18251
FGC18252
FGC18253
FGC18254
FGC18255
FGC18256
FGC18257
FGC18258
FGC18259
FGC18260
FGC18261
FGC18262
FGC18263
FGC18264
FGC18265
FGC18266
FGC18267
FGC18268
FGC18269
FGC18270
FGC18271
FGC18272
FGC18273
FGC18274
FGC18275
FGC18276
Thanks Ken, It appears that several distinct branches are forming under FGC13899. Our common father (FGC13899) existed about 3500 years ago according to Aaron Pierce who heads the "R-FGC13899 and subclades- Project: at FTDNA. I understand that 3500 years is just an educated guess. With my 111, Big Y and Full mtDNA in place, at this point I am in a holding pattern, any suggestions?. MyOrigins formulates that I am 42% Scandinavia; 36% Eastern Europe; 18% Western and Central Europe and 4% British Isles. This forum has provided me with valuable information. Thanks! Bob Kit #N112316

kenmunn
09-18-2014, 02:32 PM
Bob, it looks like we are in the holding pattern together until more people develop SNP curiosity. So far none of the Godwin group has shown any interest in SNP testing. I guess that is one of the disadvantages of descending from a clan that holds on to money so tightly they can tell the date on a coin without opening the clenched fist. <sigh>

kenmunn
09-28-2014, 07:04 PM
Alex Williamson reported on another group this morning the following:
I added a new SNP to my tree earlier today 25633952-G-A (aka Z18600)
which looks to be equivalent to Z251. It was found in your FGC kits.
Unfortunately it is in a region not covered by the BigY.

Peter
09-29-2014, 05:14 PM
I'm ft 62937 and from looking at the Z251 results, probably S11556 is the next snp to test. (I think D2 is the possible Z251 subsection for me. Does that make sense?) The ftdna advanced test page when s11556 is entered returns CTS11556 as the snp to order. I suspect they are the same snp but I've not managed to find confirmation of this anywhere. Are they the same snp?

kenmunn
09-30-2014, 02:24 AM
Peter, I would not order without confirming by phone that these two SNPs are the same. The CTS and the S prefixed SNPs are numbered independently of each other and you would never or almost never find the same number representing the same SNP found by two independent investigators. I suspect that ftdna only lists the CTS prefixed SNPs and it defaults to "CTS11556" even though you entered "S11556". In my experience YSeq has been better and more responsive to working with individual SNPs or even providing some panels below Z251 that might be very helpful. If you would like to check it out their website is: http://shop.yseq.net/

rms2
09-30-2014, 02:40 AM
ISOGG's SNP Index shows CTS11556 as under y haplogroup T1a1, and the index of Chromo2 equivalents yields no equivalent for S11556, so it does not appear the two are the same. I would not order CTS11556.

ISOGG SNP Index (http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_YDNA_SNP_Index.html)

seferhabahir
09-30-2014, 03:45 AM
Peter,

S11556 and S9294 are available for testing with YSEQ, which probably makes sense for you to test. If you come back negative for S9294, it might be interesting for you to test FGC11986 since we don't know where that SNP sits in relation to S11556 and S9294. All S9294+ people who tested come back positive for FGC11986. It would be nice to see a result for FGC11986 for someone who is S11556+ S9294-.

Peter
09-30-2014, 06:21 PM
Thanks to all for the advice. I shall proceed with YSEQ.

It seems to me that the ftdna site is not particularly helpful in directing L21 candidates towards Z251 testing. I guess that is an understatement since, as far as I can see, Z251 does not exist there. It is a pity, because it slows down the process of building data. I think you guys deserve much of the credit for getting Z251 known and positioned on the L21 tree. Thank you for that.

kenmunn
09-30-2014, 06:58 PM
Thanks to all for the advice. I shall proceed with YSEQ.

It seems to me that the ftdna site is not particularly helpful in directing L21 candidates towards Z251 testing. I guess that is an understatement since, as far as I can see, Z251 does not exist there. It is a pity, because it slows down the process of building data. I think you guys deserve much of the credit for getting Z251 known and positioned on the L21 tree. Thank you for that.

Peter, I'd like to invite you to look at Alex Williamson's extremely helpful site at: http://www.littlescottishcluster.com/RL21/NGS/Tree.html
You will need to scroll to the far right side of the chart to find Z251 (immediately before the "Irish Type III") You will note that currently there are three "known" subclades below Z251: Z16943, S11556 and FGC13899. If you have a known surname connection to any of the known subclades that would be the place I would start. If you don't, you might consider testing all three to see if you fit within one of the currently known ones. In this game it seems you "pay your money and take your chances".

kenmunn
10-16-2014, 09:37 PM
Seferhabahir, anything interesting on the last two Big Y files uploaded within the last few days to the R1b-L21 group? I am wondering specifically if they fall under one of the existing known subclades.

seferhabahir
10-16-2014, 10:38 PM
Seferhabahir, anything interesting on the last two Big Y files uploaded within the last few days to the R1b-L21 group? I am wondering specifically if they fall under one of the existing known subclades.

Don't know. I will have to go look. Usually Chris McCown puts their data into the Z251 downstream spreadsheet pretty quickly. I'll post back here if I see something interesting (or even if not).

kenmunn
10-17-2014, 07:24 PM
Don't know. I will have to go look. Usually Chris McCown puts their data into the Z251 downstream spreadsheet pretty quickly. I'll post back here if I see something interesting (or even if not).

I was wondering about Donatella N117305 (results in 10/10/14), Roberts N44578 (results in 10/13/14), and Davis 264132 (results just added today). I just found the Burgin 231656 and Withers N126307 results on Alex Williamson's chart but they haven't made it on to Chris McCown's list yet that I saw. I don't have the capability of opening the BigY result files to read what is in them so thought someone here might.

BobtheRancher
10-30-2014, 12:20 AM
Kenmunn, Any new FGC13899*? I have myself (N112316); Sanchez (171804), Godwin (1390697); and Castle (189806) --- all listed in Little Scottish. The FTDNA Project "13899" further shows Godwin (150323) as FGC13899*. Are the two Godwins (1390697 & 150323) related (are they also related to you?). Are you aware of any other FCG13899* results? Thanks! Bob

kenmunn
10-30-2014, 04:29 PM
Kenmunn, Any new FGC13899*? I have myself (N112316); Sanchez (171804), Godwin (1390697); and Castle (189806) --- all listed in Little Scottish. The FTDNA Project "13899" further shows Godwin (150323) as FGC13899*. Are the two Godwins (1390697 & 150323) related (are they also related to you?). Are you aware of any other FCG13899* results? Thanks! Bob

Yes, there are now eight FGC13899+ testers on Alex Williamson's list now. The two Godwins are father-son although 150323 passed away several years ago and never had SNP testing actually done that I am aware of. None of the Godwins in that particular part of the surname group project have had SNP testing either to my knowledge. There is an individual named Price who shares a 104/111 STR pattern with the Godwin line who I believe has only tested to L21. I also manage several other surname kits. In addition to those you mentioned in the FGC13899 category are Pierce (N10900), Roberts (N44578), Richards (79421) and Davis (764132) who share a common series of SNPs below FGC13899 before branching off.

BobtheRancher
10-31-2014, 03:55 PM
I am aware of the other FGC13899s who now have defined branches (Pierce, Roberts, Richards, & Davis) in Alex's chart as they share common SNPs below, I don't list them as FGC13899*. Always appreciate your input and thanks for clarifying about the Godwins! I am now concentrating on my Dorr genealogy. I need to find a living male Dorr in a Dorr family tree that has or will take a DNA Y-test. I am a member of the Doerr Project at FTDNA, but no matches there.

kenmunn
10-31-2014, 06:05 PM
I am aware of the other FGC13899s who now have defined branches (Pierce, Roberts, Richards, & Davis) in Alex's chart as they share common SNPs below, I don't list them as FGC13899*. Always appreciate your input and thanks for clarifying about the Godwins! I am now concentrating on my Dorr genealogy. I need to find a living male Dorr in a Dorr family tree that has or will take a DNA Y-test. I am a member of the Doerr Project at FTDNA, but no matches there.

I'm trying to recruit another Godwin from the surname group with closely matching STRs so we can try to discover a SNP difference to explore. There is a common connection back to NC in the 1700's but so far have not been able to join them together definitively. The only genetic trait that all seem to share at this point is a reluctance to part with some bucks to chase SNPs! Hope springs eternal though... and I may have to wait for eternity to find out anything at the rate I'm going.

greystones22
11-25-2014, 12:04 AM
There's a distinctly Welsh looking sector in Alex W's Big Tree defined by the SNP A242 amongst others.
I am interested. Are these guys members of the forum?

kenmunn
11-25-2014, 03:31 PM
There's a distinctly Welsh looking sector in Alex W's Big Tree defined by the SNP A242 amongst others.
I am interested. Are these guys members of the forum?

No, I'm in the FGC13899+ folks but not in the A242+ grouping. I'm not sure whether any of them are active on this group or not. You may be able to find them at: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-A241/default.aspx since it is a subgroup under A242. Happy hunting.

DPotter
01-17-2015, 08:06 PM
Looking at the "Little Scottish Cluster" spreadsheet, it looks like all those downstream Z251 fall under one of three subclades. Those would be FGC13899, S11556 and Z16943. I'm I looking at this correctly ?

kenmunn
01-17-2015, 09:52 PM
Looking at the "Little Scottish Cluster" spreadsheet, it looks like all those downstream Z251 fall under one of three subclades. Those would be FGC13899, S11556 and Z16943. I'm I looking at this correctly ?

Yes, those three are the known "big three" under Z251 at the present time.

reader
01-18-2015, 06:27 AM
Looking at the "Little Scottish Cluster" spreadsheet, it looks like all those downstream Z251 fall under one of three subclades. Those would be FGC13899, S11556 and Z16943. I'm I looking at this correctly ?

YSEQ has a panel available that includes these three Z251 subclades and many additional markers below them for $88: http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=6376

kenmunn
01-18-2015, 08:08 PM
YSEQ has a panel available that includes these three Z251 subclades and many additional markers below them for $88: http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=6376

Yes. I manage the Godwin sample done by FGC. So far it is one of the samples under FGC13899 with a multitude of novel SNPs below but with no other connection to the rest of the FGC13899 group who have tested.

seferhabahir
01-19-2015, 06:47 AM
Yes. I manage the Godwin sample done by FGC. So far it is one of the samples under FGC13899 with a multitude of novel SNPs below but with no other connection to the rest of the FGC13899 group who have tested.

And just for completeness, I manage the Yurzditsky sample done by FGC. This is one of the sample under S11556. Specifically, it is the sample that is S11556>S9294>A555>L583>FGC11963.

DPotter
01-20-2015, 01:35 AM
Thanks for the replies. I'll be ordering that Z251 panel from YSEQ. i have conducted Y-DNA testing with YSEQ, FTDNA and BritainsDNA so far to get to this point. Maybe in the future, I can convince my wife testing with Full Genome Corp (FGC) for a little under $1,000 is a great deal..............fingers crossed.

kenmunn
01-20-2015, 02:58 PM
Thanks for the replies. I'll be ordering that Z251 panel from YSEQ. i have conducted Y-DNA testing with YSEQ, FTDNA and BritainsDNA so far to get to this point. Maybe in the future, I can convince my wife testing with Full Genome Corp (FGC) for a little under $1,000 is a great deal..............fingers crossed.

When you get your results back it would be interesting to know which group you fall in. Please post here. It has been difficult to stimulate interest in those who are likely related to the kits I manage to get further testing. Must be the concentration of the "frugality gene" that has occurred in the line. After a few year period feeling like I was being "nibbled to death by a duck" the FGC option was a welcome relief (after the major pain that is).

DPotter
02-12-2015, 01:50 AM
Thanks for the replies. I'll be ordering that Z251 panel from YSEQ. i have conducted Y-DNA testing with YSEQ, FTDNA and BritainsDNA so far to get to this point. Maybe in the future, I can convince my wife testing with Full Genome Corp (FGC) for a little under $1,000 is a great deal..............fingers crossed.

Well, my results are back from YSEQ and I am negative for FGC13899 and S11556, but positive for Z16943. I am also negative for Z16944 and CTS4157 (both which are below Z16943). That means I can eliminate being descended from the same ancestor (below Z251) that 29 of the 31 people listed on the Little Scottish Cluster L21 tree are. The only 2 people left have the last names of Desmond/N98521 and Burgin/231656. Any information about these two people/surnames would be greatly appreciated and I will be contacting YSEQ reference my next step, if any (short of taking one of the large test).

kenmunn
02-12-2015, 04:13 PM
The only 2 people left have the last names of Desmond/N98521 and Burgin/231656. Any information about these two people/surnames would be greatly appreciated and I will be contacting YSEQ reference my next step, if any (short of taking one of the large test).[/QUOTE]

I had "nickeled and dimed" (more like "deka-dollared" and "hecto-dollared") through Z251 when I threw up my hands and went for "the big one" with a "kilo-dollar" splash. Ever since it has been like sitting on the shores of lake tranquility watching others struggle with no more personal "financial bleeding" on the horizon.

Without a paper trail to either Desmond or Burgin it is strictly "shooting in the dark". It appears at this time that there is no connection between the two of them unless something else is discovered and you may join them as a third "leaf" hanging off of Z16943 until enough people get NGS testing to fill in the blanks.

seferhabahir
02-13-2015, 04:57 AM
Well, my results are back from YSEQ and I am negative for FGC13899 and S11556, but positive for Z16943. I am also negative for Z16944 and CTS4157 (both which are below Z16943). That means I can eliminate being descended from the same ancestor (below Z251) that 29 of the 31 people listed on the Little Scottish Cluster L21 tree are. The only 2 people left have the last names of Desmond/N98521 and Burgin/231656. Any information about these two people/surnames would be greatly appreciated and I will be contacting YSEQ reference my next step, if any (short of taking one of the large test).

Did you join the Z251 and Subclades FTDNA project? What is your kit #?

donmatthews0910
02-14-2015, 06:42 AM
Seeking more information about S9294. I just received my results from YSEQ. S1556>S9294+. What does it mean? I see it leads to Yurzditsky. I am from Welsh decent.
Don

seferhabahir
02-14-2015, 07:43 AM
Seeking more information about S9294. I just received my results from YSEQ. S1556>S9294+. What does it mean? I see it leads to Yurzditsky. I am from Welsh decent.
Don

For more information, take a look at the Z251 and Subclades Project and Alex Williamson's Big Y tree for Z251 at these URLs:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-Z251/default.aspx?section=ycolorized

and

http://www.littlescottishcluster.com/RL21/NGS/R-Z251.html

Alex's Big Y tree has 10 people in it that are S9294+, but only people who are S11556>S9294>A555 would be related to Yurzditsky (and these would be Eastern European Ashkenazim and not Welsh). S9294 is a very old clade with several different lineages. Please join the Z251 and Subclades Project and we will try to place you into the proper subgroup. Your best bet in terms of what it means is to find others in S9294+ that have similar STR markers to you.

DPotter
02-16-2015, 03:39 AM
Did you join the Z251 and Subclades FTDNA project? What is your kit #?



I just joined the FTDNA "Z251 and subclades project" and my FTDNA kit is #11394. My Z251 (+) and downstream testing however, has been completed with BritainsDNA and YSEQ.

seferhabahir
02-16-2015, 07:32 AM
I just joined the FTDNA "Z251 and subclades project" and my FTDNA kit is #11394. My Z251 (+) and downstream testing however, has been completed with BritainsDNA and YSEQ.

I put you in the Z16943* category for now since you are negative for the downstream SNPs of Z16943...

DPotter
02-16-2015, 07:39 PM
Thank you and I can't wait for more information to become available about the three subclades downstream of Z251.

dt4067
12-10-2015, 04:09 AM
Well, my results are back from YSEQ and I am negative for FGC13899 and S11556, but positive for Z16943. I am also negative for Z16944 and CTS4157 (both which are below Z16943). That means I can eliminate being descended from the same ancestor (below Z251) that 29 of the 31 people listed on the Little Scottish Cluster L21 tree are. The only 2 people left have the last names of Desmond/N98521 and Burgin/231656. Any information about these two people/surnames would be greatly appreciated and I will be contacting YSEQ reference my next step, if any (short of taking one of the large test).

I too have landed in this Z16943* subclade. Getting to be a few of us now

DPotter
01-03-2016, 02:28 AM
I might not be Z16943* much longer, as I finally decided to do it....................I just ordered the Y Elite test from Full Genomes Corp. I've heard it can take several months for results, but those results should hold me for a while. I'll forward them to the guy that does/maintains "The Big Tree" at www.ytree.net as soon as I get them. I guess that's the best way to see/compare them to others. Through my previous testing with YSEQ, I already know that I am Z16944(-) and CTS4157(-), both being below Z16943.

MacUalraig
01-03-2016, 07:39 AM
I might not be Z16943* much longer, as I finally decided to do it....................I just ordered the Y Elite test from Full Genomes Corp. I've heard it can take several months for results, but those results should hold me for a while. I'll forward them to the guy that does/maintains "The Big Tree" at www.ytree.net as soon as I get them. I guess that's the best way to see/compare them to others. Through my previous testing with YSEQ, I already know that I am Z16944(-) and CTS4157(-), both being below Z16943.

It's also worth getting them analysed by YFull too when they arrive.

DPotter
01-15-2017, 07:00 AM
Got my results back and it looks like I'm A4257 and BY3972 below Z16943.

TigerMW
01-17-2017, 11:37 AM
Got my results back and it looks like I'm A4257 and BY3972 below Z16943.

Congratulations on your results. Is this right? You posted that you received your results on on Jan. 15 of 2017 but below you posted that you had just ordered on Jan. 2 of 2016.


I might not be Z16943* much longer, as I finally decided to do it....................I just ordered the Y Elite test from Full Genomes Corp. I've heard it can take several months for results, but those results should hold me for a while. ... .

DPotter
01-18-2017, 12:24 AM
Congratulations on your results. Is this right? You posted that you received your results on on Jan. 15 of 2017 but below you posted that you had just ordered on Jan. 2 of 2016.

Yes it is. Mostly my fault. I let the kit lay around unopened and then had the bad luck when I sent it in of my first sample not passing their quality test. My other sample was placed in another batch for testing so that added a little more time.