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Liquid
06-26-2021, 10:46 AM
Target: Liquid_unscaled
Distance: 1.0680% / 0.01067977 | R5P
28.0 Georgian_Imer
26.4 Azerbaijani_Turkey
18.8 Spanish_Asturias
18.2 Karaite_Egypt
8.6 Nivkh

Target: Liquid_unscaled
Distance: 1.0692% / 0.01069244 | R5P
32.2 Sephardic_Jew
30.6 Georgian_Imer
18.8 Azerbaijani_Turkey
10.2 Polish_Kashubian
8.2 Nivkh

Target: Liquid_unscaled
Distance: 1.1268% / 0.01126783 | R5P
29.4 Azerbaijani_Turkey
29.0 Ossetian
19.4 Italian_Lombardy
14.6 Tunisian_Jew
7.6 Nivkh

Target: Liquid_unscaled
Distance: 1.1749% / 0.01174920 | R5P
47.6 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
37.4 Georgian_Imer
8.4 Nivkh
4.2 Mari
2.4 Mlabri

Target: Liquid_unscaled
Distance: 1.1812% / 0.01181158 | R5P
33.4 Georgian_Imer
30.4 Italian_Liguria
22.4 Iraqi_Jew
8.2 Nivkh
5.6 Mari

This is me deleting each Jewish coordinate each time and reloading, only to find another Jewish population in the new match. What is peculiar to me is that these Jewish groups are native to different parts of the world but they still reappear!

vasil
06-26-2021, 02:06 PM
Its not that you specificaly or Turks are related to Jews the calculator is just using them as a proxy for the Levantine part of your genome and maybe southern European. Running modern samples as a mix of other modern samples is a pointles exercise other than for people who are of recent mixed ancestry.

Liquid
06-26-2021, 06:00 PM
Its not that you specificaly or Turks are related to Jews the calculator is just using them as a proxy for the Levantine part of your genome and maybe southern European. Running modern samples as a mix of other modern samples is a pointles exercise other than for people who are of recent mixed ancestry.

This is almost what I'm trying to find out, whether we were Turkified recently, if so, who were we before Turkification.

Kulin
06-26-2021, 06:59 PM
This is almost what I'm trying to find out, whether we were Turkified recently, if so, who were we before Turkification.

Anatolian Turks are native Anatolian Greeks (sometimes other minorities depending on region) for the most part + significant Turkmen ancestry. They were "Turkified" in the pontic/eastern black sea areas where they score very little if any Turkmen ancestry, but most other regions have Turkmen admixture. Balkan Turks are native balkanites (usually Greek or Bulgarian) + Turkmen. These are generalizations based on averages of course, but you get the gist. Here are the approximate Turkmen-percentages (https://turkishdnaproject.com/genetik-modelleme/) by regions inhabited by Turks, compiled by the Turkish DNA project.

Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews pop up in your models because of the West Asian + southern euro-like ancestry in most Turks. However, most Turkish people aren't of Jewish ancestry.

bovefex
06-26-2021, 07:15 PM
Anatolian Turks are native Anatolian Greeks (sometimes other minorities depending on region) for the most part + significant Turkmen ancestry. They were "Turkified" in the pontic/eastern black sea areas where they score very little if any Turkmen ancestry, but most other regions have Turkmen admixture. Balkan Turks are native balkanites (usually Greek or Bulgarian) + Turkmen. These are generalizations based on averages of course, but you get the gist. Here are the approximate Turkmen-percentages (https://turkishdnaproject.com/genetik-modelleme/) by regions inhabited by Turks, compiled by the Turkish DNA project.

Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews pop up in your models because of the West Asian + southern euro-like ancestry in most Turks. However, most Turkish people aren't of Jewish ancestry.

Great explanation. I would also like to mention that the native Anatolian Greek ancestors of most modern Anatolian Turks weren't Greeks as in literally from Greece, but rather Greek-speaking Byzantines/Romans. This is actually also true for those from Greece itself; despite being called 'Greek', they owe more of their ancestry to the Byzantines than to the ancient Greeks who lived thousands of years ago, which makes perfect sense; this is like saying you owe more of your ancestry to your father (~50% shared) than to your grandfather (~25%). The Byzantines themselves were also the result of locals (Myceneans in Greece and Anatolians in Turkey) mixing in with newcomers.

As for the part with the Turkmen admixture, I would like to mention that Kulin most likely isn't talking about the people we call Turkmens today. Modern Turkmens are genetically different (more West-Eurasian) than the original Turks who entered Anatolia, so you shouldn't use them when modeling modern Anatolian Turks.

Liquid
06-27-2021, 09:45 AM
Great explanation. I would also like to mention that the native Anatolian Greek ancestors of most modern Anatolian Turks weren't Greeks as in literally from Greece, but rather Greek-speaking Byzantines/Romans.

I like to think of them as Hellenized Anatolians who were Latinised Anatolians who were Persianised Anatolians etc etc. You get the idea.

The Ashkenazi Jews look interesting, perhaps they have their origins in Anatolia e.g Anatolia -> Holy Land -> Exodus -----> Germany. But why do they not have any CHG and why did they move that far away, until they reached possible hostile Germanic tribe territory? Because they were areligious and just let them be?

4531645316

Edit, a study based on Y-Chromosomal DNA appears to have shown a link with the North of the Fertile Crescent.

"A 2001 study by Nebel et al. showed that both Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jewish populations share the same overall paternal Near Eastern ancestries. In comparison with data available from other relevant populations in the region, Jews were found to be more closely related to groups in the north of the Fertile Crescent."

Cynic
07-01-2021, 08:30 AM
Great explanation. I would also like to mention that the native Anatolian Greek ancestors of most modern Anatolian Turks weren't Greeks as in literally from Greece, but rather Greek-speaking Byzantines/Romans. This is actually also true for those from Greece itself; despite being called 'Greek', they owe more of their ancestry to the Byzantines than to the ancient Greeks who lived thousands of years ago, which makes perfect sense; this is like saying you owe more of your ancestry to your father (~50% shared) than to your grandfather (~25%). The Byzantines themselves were also the result of locals (Myceneans in Greece and Anatolians in Turkey) mixing in with newcomers.

As for the part with the Turkmen admixture, I would like to mention that Kulin most likely isn't talking about the people we call Turkmens today. Modern Turkmens are genetically different (more West-Eurasian) than the original Turks who entered Anatolia, so you shouldn't use them when modeling modern Anatolian Turks.

Are you trying to say that modern Greeks, and by extension Turks, owe a substantial amount of their ancestry to people who lived in what is now Italy? Because that is what I'm interpreting from this comment. Correct me if I'm wrong. My impression was that the Byzantine empire was just an extension of the earlier Roman empire and did not affect the genetics of the regions it encompassed and that the pre-Turkic ancestry of modern Anatolian Turks was a mixture of native Anatolian(read near eastern-like)+ancient Greeks settled on the Greek colonies on Asia minor while modern European(not Anatolian/Pontic) Greeks were mostly the remnants of ancient Greeks+Slavic admixture.

bovefex
07-01-2021, 10:07 AM
Are you trying to say that modern Greeks, and by extension Turks, owe a substantial amount of their ancestry to people who lived in what is now Italy? Because that is what I'm interpreting from this comment. Correct me if I'm wrong. My impression was that the Byzantine empire was just an extension of the earlier Roman empire and did not affect the genetics of the regions it encompassed and that the pre-Turkic ancestry of modern Anatolian Turks was a mixture of native Anatolian(read near eastern-like)+ancient Greeks settled on the Greek colonies on Asia minor while modern European(not Anatolian/Pontic) Greeks were mostly the remnants of ancient Greeks+Slavic admixture.

The pre-Turkic Central Anatolians owe most of their ancestry to Bronze Age Anatolians, with some other groups sprinkled in (Pontics are pretty different though), though we do not know what the source of the Steppe ancestry was. It might have been the Ancient Greeks, or Phrygians or something else entirely. I would argue that BA Anatolians weren't necessarily Near Eastern-like, but exactly match their geographic region, that is being between Greece and other more eastern countries.

As for modern Greeks, most Greek users I have seen say Greeks, especially Aegean Islanders, have very high levels of BA Anatolian ancestry, possibly even more than Ancient Greek itself, while mainlanders should also have ancient Balkan ancestry that would have been similar to Ancient Greek.

Also remember that ironically enough, the Roman samples we have, on average, are much more similar to Aegean Islanders and Cretans, but also Anatolian Greeks (with the exception of Pontics), than to many Italians from northern regions.

Cynic
07-01-2021, 05:12 PM
The pre-Turkic Central Anatolians owe most of their ancestry to Bronze Age Anatolians, with some other groups sprinkled in (Pontics are pretty different though), though we do not know what the source of the Steppe ancestry was. It might have been the Ancient Greeks, or Phrygians or something else entirely. I would argue that BA Anatolians weren't necessarily Near Eastern-like, but exactly match their geographic region, that is being between Greece and other more eastern countries.

As for modern Greeks, most Greek users I have seen say Greeks, especially Aegean Islanders, have very high levels of BA Anatolian ancestry, possibly even more than Ancient Greek itself, while mainlanders should also have ancient Balkan ancestry that would have been similar to Ancient Greek.

Also remember that ironically enough, the Roman samples we have, on average, are much more similar to Aegean Islanders and Cretans, but also Anatolian Greeks (with the exception of Pontics), than to many Italians from northern regions.

Clarify what you meant by “newcomers” to Greece and Anatolia who mixed with locals to become Byzantines.

bovefex
07-01-2021, 05:25 PM
Clarify what you meant by “newcomers” to Greece and Anatolia who mixed with locals to become Byzantines.

I do not possess enough information on this to be able to give you an exact answer. I just meant that the Byzantines of Greece weren't the solely descended from Ancient Greeks and the Byzantines of Anatolia weren't solely descended from Ancient Anatolians. Migrations from the east seem likely, but migrations from the north and the west too (especially the Steppe of Anatolians, since they didn't seem to have that in the Bronze Age).

Cynic
07-01-2021, 10:53 PM
Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 1.8184% / 0.01818429
34.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
27.0 GRC_Peloponnese_N
21.0 GRC_N
17.8 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA

Target: Greek_Thessaly
Distance: 1.7014% / 0.01701355
39.8 GRC_Peloponnese_N
37.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
15.2 GRC_N
7.4 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA

Target: Greek_Kos
Distance: 0.6033% / 0.00603312
50.4 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
19.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
18.2 GRC_Peloponnese_N
11.8 GRC_N

Target: Greek_Dodecanese
Distance: 0.6590% / 0.00658991
50.4 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
31.2 GRC_Peloponnese_N
18.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: Greek_Crete
Distance: 0.9259% / 0.00925869
42.0 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
25.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
16.6 GRC_Peloponnese_N
15.8 GRC_N

Target: GRC_Mycenaean
Distance: 1.7773% / 0.01777257
42.8 GRC_Peloponnese_N
22.8 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
20.4 GRC_N
14.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: GRC_Minoan_Lassithi
Distance: 1.5654% / 0.01565401
87.8 GRC_Peloponnese_N
12.2 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA

Seems to be true that modern Greek islanders have lots of BA Anatolian ancestry kind of shocking tbh.

Liquid
07-03-2021, 08:41 PM
Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 1.8184% / 0.01818429
34.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
27.0 GRC_Peloponnese_N
21.0 GRC_N
17.8 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA

Target: Greek_Thessaly
Distance: 1.7014% / 0.01701355
39.8 GRC_Peloponnese_N
37.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
15.2 GRC_N
7.4 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA

Target: Greek_Kos
Distance: 0.6033% / 0.00603312
50.4 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
19.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
18.2 GRC_Peloponnese_N
11.8 GRC_N

Target: Greek_Dodecanese
Distance: 0.6590% / 0.00658991
50.4 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
31.2 GRC_Peloponnese_N
18.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: Greek_Crete
Distance: 0.9259% / 0.00925869
42.0 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
25.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
16.6 GRC_Peloponnese_N
15.8 GRC_N

Target: GRC_Mycenaean
Distance: 1.7773% / 0.01777257
42.8 GRC_Peloponnese_N
22.8 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
20.4 GRC_N
14.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: GRC_Minoan_Lassithi
Distance: 1.5654% / 0.01565401
87.8 GRC_Peloponnese_N
12.2 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA

Seems to be true that modern Greek islanders have lots of BA Anatolian ancestry kind of shocking tbh.

Target: TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
Distance: 2.4560% / 0.02455963 | R5P
44.2 Levant_PPNB
24.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
21.8 TUR_Barcin_N
9.8 GEO_CHG


Which appears to be mostly Levantine/IraniAN

Cynic
07-03-2021, 10:18 PM
Target: TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
Distance: 2.4560% / 0.02455963 | R5P
44.2 Levant_PPNB
24.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
21.8 TUR_Barcin_N
9.8 GEO_CHG


Which appears to be mostly Levantine/Iranic

Something that has Iran_N is not necessarily Iranic.

Xeon
07-04-2021, 04:52 AM
Target: TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
Distance: 2.4560% / 0.02455963 | R5P
44.2 Levant_PPNB
24.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
21.8 TUR_Barcin_N
9.8 GEO_CHG


Which appears to be mostly Levantine/Iranic

it has no Yamnaya, how could it be Iranic? do you know of any Iranian speaking populations with no Yamnaya?

Liquid
07-04-2021, 03:26 PM
it has no Yamnaya, how could it be Iranic? do you know of any Iranian speaking populations with no Yamnaya?

Ok, my intention was to refer to a geographical region, according to present state boundaries, i.e. Iran.

Xeon
07-04-2021, 09:46 PM
Ok, my intention was to refer to a geographical region, according to present state boundaries, i.e. Iran.

How so? It has as much Iranian neolithic as it does barcin. I think originally northern mesopotamian. This combination is what I expect from assyrians or Lebanese

Cynic
07-04-2021, 10:30 PM
Ok, my intention was to refer to a geographical region, according to present state boundaries, i.e. Iran.

I recommend using the word Zagrosian as a byword for neolithic Iranian if you don't want to use the latter. Saying Iranic is not accurate and it makes the discussion way more confusing because it is already used as a catch-all word for ancient and modern Iranian(Indo European) speakers.

eolien
07-05-2021, 08:21 AM
I think Alalakh is not a proxy for Anatolian component per se although today it is located in modern Turkey. It is closer what we call Northern Levant or Cilicia right?

Liquid
07-05-2021, 01:00 PM
I think Alalakh is not a proxy for Anatolian component per se although today it is located in modern Turkey. It is closer what we call Northern Levant or Cilicia right?

My - amateurish - thoughts exactly. It's right on the border of Turkey with Syria, albeit found within the current state boundaries of Turkey. Hatay is known for having a very Middle Eastern flavour, culturally, it is home to many ethnic groups. I'm not sure how much these Alalakh guys contributed to the ethnogenesis of 'Anatolians', even if they did have a significant impact, a different set of events in 1939, when it joined Turkey, would've put them into the Levantine camp.

Edit: Oops, it looks like they had a big impact, I really shouldn't use myself as a reference...

45436

bovefex
07-05-2021, 01:50 PM
My - amateurish - thoughts exactly. It's right on the border of Turkey with Syria, albeit found within the current state boundaries of Turkey. Hatay is known for having a very Middle Eastern flavour, culturally, it is home to many ethnic groups. I'm not sure how much these Alalakh guys contributed to the ethnogenesis of 'Anatolians', even if they did have a significant impact, a different set of events in 1939, when it joined Turkey, would've put them into the Levantine camp.

Edit: Oops, it looks like they had a big impact, I really shouldn't use myself as a reference...

45436

Why are you using Tepecik_Ciftlik (Neolithic) together with Bronze Age pops pops? I have a feeling it is seriously skewing your results.

EDIT: Not only that, but removing Alalakh after also having removed Tepecik_Ciftlik seems to make a marginal difference for many Anatolians (though there are definitely samples that suffer too).

Liquid
07-05-2021, 03:00 PM
Why are you using Tepecik_Ciftlik (Neolithic) together with Bronze Age pops pops? I have a feeling it is seriously skewing your results.

EDIT: Not only that, but removing Alalakh after also having removed Tepecik_Ciftlik seems to make a marginal difference for many Anatolians (though there are definitely samples that suffer too).

Just because it gives me the best fit and Davidski uses Tepecik in his global standard calc. He has mixed at least one BA population with earlier ones in that calc. This is what it looks like with Tepecik is replaced with Alalakh and Barcin.

45437

bovefex
07-05-2021, 03:03 PM
Just because it gives me the best fit and Davidski uses Tepecik in his global standard calc. He has mixed at least one BA population with earlier ones in that calc. This is what it looks like with Tepecik is replaced with Alalakh and Barcin.

45437

Better fits don't necessarily mean better accuracy, and in this context the use of Tepecik really isn't fitting in my opinion. It deflates Kaman_Kalehoyuk for many pops by a lot, which is actually the better sample to gauge central Anatolian BA ancestry, at least in my opinion.

Liquid
07-05-2021, 03:16 PM
Better fits don't necessarily mean better accuracy, and in this context the use of Tepecik really isn't fitting in my opinion. It deflates Kaman_Kalehoyuk for many pops by a lot, which is actually the better sample to gauge central Anatolian BA ancestry, at least in my opinion.

Here is pure bronze age and China Boshan (N). I've completely lost Alalakh (MLBA) as it's been dominated by Kaman Kalehoyuk (MLBA). What's this mean? Terrible fits for NW and Balkans.

45438

Liquid
07-05-2021, 03:25 PM
Back to Ashkenazi and Serphardic Jews, here as a mix of Alalakh, Barcin and Yamnaya.45439

bovefex
07-05-2021, 04:01 PM
What's this mean? Terrible fits for NW and Balkans.

45438

Because you forgot Yamnaya. Also try using KAZ_Karakhanid instead of Boshan. Central Asian Turks weren't 100% East Asian, and I do not know if the rest can be proxied by what you already have.

Liquid
07-05-2021, 06:00 PM
Because you forgot Yamnaya. Also try using KAZ_Karakhanid instead of Boshan. Central Asian Turks weren't 100% East Asian, and I do not know if the rest can be proxied by what you already have.

Pure Bronze Age + Yamnaya + Karakhanid.

Balkan Turks and people of mixed Balkan heritage like me really need Barcin but the Azerbaijanis seem to be happy without it.

45441

bovefex
07-05-2021, 06:17 PM
Pure Bronze Age + Yamnaya + Karakhanid.

Balkan Turks and people of mixed Balkan heritage like me really need Barcin but the Azerbaijanis seem to be happy without it.

45441

While I am not a fan of mixing pops from very different time periods, I agree that Balkan Turks need something else, though I just do not know what.

By the way, you said you are part Balkan Turk, but I remember reading in a post that you were part from Izmir and part from Trabzon, or is my mind playing games on me?

Liquid
07-05-2021, 08:19 PM
While I am not a fan of mixing pops from very different time periods, I agree that Balkan Turks need something else, though I just do not know what.

By the way, you said you are part Balkan Turk, but I remember reading in a post that you were part from Izmir and part from Trabzon, or is my mind playing games on me?

Ok, let's say Central West Coast (P) and Central North Coast (M) of Turkey, I don't want to be more specific.

My mother's test came back and she is low in 'Turkic', about 5% (various calcs), so given where my mothers side were settled, that I fall within the higher range of Yamnaya, which rules out pure Trabzon (?), that I match better with Kura_Araxes, which means Trabzon cannot be ruled out completely, and that I don't match with Armenians at all, I'm beginning to think something like this actually did happen. It would help if Davidski woke up so that I can get her G25 done.

45442

By the way, nobody in my family has any memory of any Balkan links whatsoever.

bovefex
07-05-2021, 09:56 PM
By the way, nobody in my family has any memory of any Balkan links whatsoever.

But you just said that you are part Balkan? In any case, if you are going off of G25 for that I would like to mention that you score no 'Iranian, Caucasian and Mesopotamian' on 23andme according to your signature, so to me it seems unlikely that you are really ~20% Trabzonian, but I am nowhere near an expert.

Caspian
07-06-2021, 02:25 AM
Pure Bronze Age + Yamnaya + Karakhanid.

Balkan Turks and people of mixed Balkan heritage like me really need Barcin but the Azerbaijanis seem to be happy without it.

45441

In reality, Azerbaijani G25 average don't has that much Kura Araxes admixtures. Kura Araxes score is almost 20% Kura Araxes in Azerbaijanis average (these Azerbaijani G25 samples are from mostly Iran afaik). It seems to be shifted to the Kura Araxes because of you did not use Iranian and Levantine Bronz Age references. Could you add Iranian Bronze Age references, such as Haji_Firuz_BA, Tepe_Hissar or Shahr'e_Sokhta_BA samples to calculation?

My calculation doesn't include Middle and Late Bronze Age, it includes Chalcolithic Age and EBA for the purpose of find the true Steppe ancestry and results were like this.

Target: Azeri
Distance: 0.8823% / 0.00882263
27.4 IRAN_Chalcolithic
20.0 CAUCASUS_EBA(Maykop_Caucasus+Kura_Araxes_Armenia)
18.8 LEVANT_Chalcolithic
16.0 STEPPE
11.2 ANATOLIA_Chalcolithic
6.6 EAST-ASIA_Neolithic


And some others
https://i.ibb.co/WzGKG8H/Chalcolithic-to-EBA-xxx.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/zXxVtHv/Chalcolithic-to-EBA-xxx-222.jpg

Chad Rohlfsen
07-06-2021, 03:47 AM
Your models are off because your references are. You need more European and Central Asian sources. Then KA will shoot up.

Mrtni
07-06-2021, 11:35 AM
I don't know how close they are to each other. I'd guess that there are some Aegean Turks who could share some similarities with them. For example, my Cousins distances aren't that far away between Turks and European/Middle Eastern Jews.

1 Turk (Turkey) 7.9
2 Turk (Aydin) 8.52
3 Turk (Balikesir) 8.54
4 Jew (Sephardim) 10.45
5 Jew (Ashkenazi) 10.57
6 Greek (Azov) 10.82
7 Jew (Ashkenazi) 10.85
8 Turk (Istanbul) 10.9
9 Jew (Ashkenazim) 11.15
10 Jew (Bulgaria) 11.47
11 Jew (Turkey) 11.79
12 Greek (Macedonia) 11.98
13 Jew (Syria) 12.49
14 Italian (SouthItaly) 12.61
15 Jew (Italian) 12.68
16 Jew (Turkish_Sephardim) 12.79
17 Italian (Abruzzo) 13.26
18 Greek (Greece) 13.27
19 Sicilian (Sicily) 13.29
20 Jew (Algeria) 13.39

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 63.6% Cypriot (Cyprus) + 36.4% Bashkir (Kildigulovo) @ 4.61
2 91.6% Turk (Turkey) + 8.4% BedouinB (Negev) @ 4.62
3 70% Jew (Bulgaria) + 30% Turkmen (Shumanay) @ 4.93
4 72% Jew (Syria) + 28% Bashkir (Bashkortostan) @ 4.96
5 71.5% Jew (Ashkenazi) + 28.5% Turkmen (Shumanay) @ 5
6 60.3% Jew (Sephardim) + 39.7% Nogai (Dagestan) @ 5.01
7 71.1% Jew (Bulgaria) + 28.9% Uzbek (Uzbekistan) @ 5.05
8 66.2% Lebanese_Christian (Lebanon) + 33.8% Bashkir (Kildigulovo) @ 5.07
9 52.9% Jew (Algeria) + 47.1% Nogai (Dagestan) @ 5.1
10 72.6% Jew (Ashkenazi) + 27.4% Uzbek (Uzbekistan) @ 5.15
11 68.7% Jew (Ashkenazi) + 31.3% Turkmen (Afghanistan) @ 5.15
12 64.6% Cypriot (Cyprus) + 35.4% Bashkir (Bashkortostan) @ 5.15
13 81.8% Turk (Turkey) + 18.2% Libyan (Libya) @ 5.24
14 66.2% Lebanese_Christian (Lebanon) + 33.8% Bashkir (Ilbragimovo) @ 5.28
15 64.1% Lebanese_Muslim (Lebanon) + 35.9% Tatars (Tatarstan) @ 5.29
16 66.5% Jew (Syria) + 33.5% Lipka_Tatar (Belorus) @ 5.36
17 59.6% Arab_Israel (Iqrit) + 40.4% Tatars (Tatarstan) @ 5.39
18 67.2% Lebanese_Christian (Lebanon) + 32.8% Bashkir (Bashkortostan) @ 5.41
19 61.6% Lebanese_Christian (Lebanon) + 38.4% Tatars (Tatarstan) @ 5.47
20 68.8% Lebanese_Muslim (Lebanon) + 31.2% Bashkir (Ilbragimovo) @ 5.5

bovefex
07-06-2021, 12:41 PM
In reality, Azerbaijani G25 average don't has that much Kura Araxes admixtures. Kura Araxes score is almost 20% Kura Araxes in Azerbaijanis average (these Azerbaijani G25 samples are from mostly Iran afaik). It seems to be shifted to the Kura Araxes because of you did not use Iranian and Levantine Bronz Age references. Could you add Iranian Bronze Age references, such as Haji_Firuz_BA, Tepe_Hissar or Shahr'e_Sokhta_BA samples to calculation?

My calculation doesn't include Middle and Late Bronze Age, it includes Chalcolithic Age and EBA for the purpose of find the true Steppe ancestry and results were like this.

Target: Azeri
Distance: 0.8823% / 0.00882263
27.4 IRAN_Chalcolithic
20.0 CAUCASUS_EBA(Maykop_Caucasus+Kura_Araxes_Armenia)
18.8 LEVANT_Chalcolithic
16.0 STEPPE
11.2 ANATOLIA_Chalcolithic
6.6 EAST-ASIA_Neolithic


And some others
https://i.ibb.co/WzGKG8H/Chalcolithic-to-EBA-xxx.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/zXxVtHv/Chalcolithic-to-EBA-xxx-222.jpg

Mind sharing the list of pops you used?

Liquid
07-06-2021, 01:18 PM
But you just said that you are part Balkan? In any case, if you are going off of G25 for that I would like to mention that you score no 'Iranian, Caucasian and Mesopotamian' on 23andme according to your signature, so to me it seems unlikely that you are really ~20% Trabzonian, but I am nowhere near an expert.

Yes, I'm going purely on G25 haha. The 23andme calc seems to focus on very recent ancestry, it tells me that I am Turk from Turkey, I know that already! Maybe Turks from North Turkey are some mixture of Trabzon and the Balkans, that would explain why G25 split it into Trabzon and Deliorman, which you would expect due to geographic location and the turmoil in the Balkans in the 19th century? No idea.

Target: Turkish_North:Turkish_North9
Distance: 3.7108% / 0.03710796 | R2P
53.8 Turkish_Deliorman
46.2 Turkish_Trabzon

Target: Turkish_North:Turkish_North8
Distance: 4.1563% / 0.04156267 | R2P
61.6 Turkish_Trabzon
38.4 Turkish_Deliorman

Target: Turkish_North:Turkish_North7
Distance: 4.3049% / 0.04304920 | R2P
50.8 Turkish_Trabzon
49.2 Turkish_Deliorman

Target: Turkish_North:Turkish_North6
Distance: 6.0448% / 0.06044825 | R2P
60.2 Turkish_Deliorman
39.8 Turkish_Trabzon

Target: Turkish_North:Turkish_North5
Distance: 6.9012% / 0.06901172 | R2P
60.6 Turkish_Deliorman
39.4 Turkish_Trabzon

Target: Turkish_North:Turkish_North4
Distance: 7.9524% / 0.07952382 | R2P
58.2 Turkish_Deliorman
41.8 Turkish_Trabzon

Target: Turkish_North:Turkish_North3
Distance: 7.1454% / 0.07145412 | R2P
58.6 Turkish_Deliorman
41.4 Turkish_Trabzon

Target: Turkish_North:Turkish_North2
Distance: 5.0948% / 0.05094771 | R2P
50.4 Turkish_Deliorman
49.6 Turkish_Trabzon

Target: Turkish_North:Turkish_North1
Distance: 5.2270% / 0.05226957 | R2P
67.2 Turkish_Deliorman
32.8 Turkish_Trabzon

Actually, maybe not...

Liquid
07-06-2021, 01:40 PM
In reality, Azerbaijani G25 average don't has that much Kura Araxes admixtures. Kura Araxes score is almost 20% Kura Araxes in Azerbaijanis average (these Azerbaijani G25 samples are from mostly Iran afaik). It seems to be shifted to the Kura Araxes because of you did not use Iranian and Levantine Bronz Age references. Could you add Iranian Bronze Age references, such as Haji_Firuz_BA, Tepe_Hissar or Shahr'e_Sokhta_BA samples to calculation?

My calculation doesn't include Middle and Late Bronze Age, it includes Chalcolithic Age and EBA for the purpose of find the true Steppe ancestry and results were like this.

Target: Azeri
Distance: 0.8823% / 0.00882263
27.4 IRAN_Chalcolithic
20.0 CAUCASUS_EBA(Maykop_Caucasus+Kura_Araxes_Armenia)
18.8 LEVANT_Chalcolithic
16.0 STEPPE
11.2 ANATOLIA_Chalcolithic
6.6 EAST-ASIA_Neolithic


And some others
https://i.ibb.co/WzGKG8H/Chalcolithic-to-EBA-xxx.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/zXxVtHv/Chalcolithic-to-EBA-xxx-222.jpg

Yes, the Kura_Araxes culture is a mixture of Anatolian farmer, Iranian farmers and the native Caucasus Hunter Gatherers. It will eat up the Iran component.

Target: Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
Distance: 2.6653% / 0.02665329 | R3P
36.4 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
34.8 GEO_CHG
28.8 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C

Target: Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
Distance: 3.1651% / 0.03165145 | R3P
41.8 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
40.6 GEO_CHG
17.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

Liquid
07-06-2021, 02:12 PM
Your models are off because your references are. You need more European and Central Asian sources. Then KA will shoot up.

Which sources would you recommend?

bovefex
07-06-2021, 03:42 PM
Yes, I'm going purely on G25 haha. The 23andme calc seems to focus on very recent ancestry, it tells me that I am Turk from Turkey, I know that already! Maybe Turks from North Turkey are some mixture of Trabzon and the Balkans, that would explain why G25 split it into Trabzon and Deliorman, which you would expect due to geographic location and the turmoil in the Balkans in the 19th century? No idea.

Target: Turkish_North:Turkish_North9
Distance: 3.7108% / 0.03710796 | R2P
53.8 Turkish_Deliorman
46.2 Turkish_Trabzon

Target: Turkish_North:Turkish_North8
Distance: 4.1563% / 0.04156267 | R2P
61.6 Turkish_Trabzon
38.4 Turkish_Deliorman

Target: Turkish_North:Turkish_North7
Distance: 4.3049% / 0.04304920 | R2P
50.8 Turkish_Trabzon
49.2 Turkish_Deliorman

Target: Turkish_North:Turkish_North6
Distance: 6.0448% / 0.06044825 | R2P
60.2 Turkish_Deliorman
39.8 Turkish_Trabzon

Target: Turkish_North:Turkish_North5
Distance: 6.9012% / 0.06901172 | R2P
60.6 Turkish_Deliorman
39.4 Turkish_Trabzon

Target: Turkish_North:Turkish_North4
Distance: 7.9524% / 0.07952382 | R2P
58.2 Turkish_Deliorman
41.8 Turkish_Trabzon

Target: Turkish_North:Turkish_North3
Distance: 7.1454% / 0.07145412 | R2P
58.6 Turkish_Deliorman
41.4 Turkish_Trabzon

Target: Turkish_North:Turkish_North2
Distance: 5.0948% / 0.05094771 | R2P
50.4 Turkish_Deliorman
49.6 Turkish_Trabzon

Target: Turkish_North:Turkish_North1
Distance: 5.2270% / 0.05226957 | R2P
67.2 Turkish_Deliorman
32.8 Turkish_Trabzon

Actually, maybe not...

Why not just try modeling yourself with Turkish_Southwest and Turkish_North? I think you are just overcomplicating things for yourself.

Chad Rohlfsen
07-06-2021, 04:52 PM
Probably Balkan IA and some various Turkics with differing admixture

Caspian
07-13-2021, 06:52 PM
Mind sharing the list of pops you used?

Hello, I used the Camlibel Tarlasi, Buyukkaya and Ikiztepe samples for my Anatolian Chalcolithic reference; Seh Gabi Chalcolithic, I2337 and I2921 samples from Tepe Hissar (I did not use other Tepe Hissar samples, because they are from Bronze Age) for my Iran Chalcolithic reference, I did not use Haji Firuz Chalcolithic, because I think it is geographically an outlier sample for Iran; Israel Chalcolithic sample for my Levant Chalcolithic reference; Yamnaya Samara and Yamnaya Ukraine samples for my Steppe reference; Kura Araxes Kaps, Kura Araxes Talin, Maykop Novosvobodnaya and other Maykop samples (SIJ001, SIJ002 and SIJ003) that do not have Steppe admixture for my Caucasus EBA reference.

I combined two different types East Asian Neolithic reference in my calculation like Gedmatch calculators. I used Devils Gate Neolithic, Yakutsk Neolithic and Shamanka Neolithic samples for North East Asian reference; Vietnam Neolithic and Laos Neolithic samples for my South East Asian reference. Frankly, If I use one type East Asian reference (for example Devils Gate) the results for East Asian values still don't change much.


We can add or remove a new reference to the calculation, for specific to individuals or peoples, but the results do not change much.
I would like to add that, we need an extra ancient South Asian or similar modern (for example Paniya) reference for Iranian peoples, I forgot to add it. Since there was no such reference in my calculation, the Iranian peoples were a bit more East Asian shifted than they should have been. Persians shouldn't be 4% East Asian actually.

This is more correct now than before for Iranians.
https://i.ibb.co/fH729mg/Iranians-Paniya2.jpg

bkru11
02-21-2022, 10:05 AM
Not really

Shujauddin
02-21-2022, 12:20 PM
This is almost what I'm trying to find out, whether we were Turkified recently, if so, who were we before Turkification.

It is being said that Ashkenazi Jews were actually Khazar Turks.

Gentica277282
02-21-2022, 12:51 PM
They’re not related, if you are asking if you can use Jews as a proxy then yes you can

Gentica277282
02-21-2022, 01:30 PM
Same way I can use Ashkenazi In a four way model as proxy to represent some of my ancestry

Distance: 1.6248% / 0.01624793
52.6 Berber_MAR_TIZ
22.8 BedouinB
17.8 Ashkenazi_Germany
6.8 Yoruba

Aben Aboo
02-21-2022, 02:35 PM
Same way I can use Ashkenazi In a four way model as proxy to represent some of my ancestry

Distance: 1.6248% / 0.01624793
52.6 Berber_MAR_TIZ
22.8 BedouinB
17.8 Ashkenazi_Germany
6.8 Yoruba

Yes, much more some mixed Levant/South european ancestry, i can use them with sephardim for to represent some of my ancestry, and for some reasons, sephardim comes back more often especially Morocco Jews, but with no overlaps when i retried them, i have egyptian or samaritan.

passenger
02-21-2022, 02:37 PM
It is being said that Ashkenazi Jews were actually Khazar Turks.

People say a lot of things. This one happens to be patently false and mostly driven by a pernicious conspiracy theory. It is certainly possible that Ashkenazi Jews have some very minor Khazar ancestry, but the vast majority of Ashkenazi DNA does not come from Khazars and there is no genetic, linguistic or otherwise cultural evidence to support such a connection on any significant level. If you have some, feel free to share it, but otherwise I think it's best not to rehash this tired old subject.

Aben Aboo
02-21-2022, 02:38 PM
It is being said that Ashkenazi Jews were actually Khazar Turks.

Ashkenazis have minor but persistent east asian component, but clearly they aren't Khazar on genetic point of view, Khazars were old Turkik people, probably mixed with some caucasus and or european.
And of cultural point of view.....clearly they are distinct

Flub
02-21-2022, 02:54 PM
People say a lot of things. This one happens to be patently false and mostly driven by a pernicious conspiracy theory. It is certainly possible that Ashkenazi Jews have some very minor Khazar ancestry, but the vast majority of Ashkenazi DNA does not come from Khazars and there is no genetic, linguistic or otherwise cultural evidence to support such a connection on any significant level. If you have some, feel free to share it, but otherwise I think it's best not to rehash this tired old subject.

If AJs really had Khazar dna wouldn't we definitely know about it? I mean there are already Khazar samples out there. The East Asian ancestry needs to be looked into question on where it's particular source is from, it could be included in a Turkic ancestry of some kind.

passenger
02-21-2022, 03:08 PM
If AJs really had Khazar dna wouldn't we definitely know about it? I mean there are already Khazar samples out there. The East Asian ancestry needs to be looked into question on where it's particular source is from, it could be included in a Turkic ancestry of some kind.

I'm being generous for the sake of scientific skepticism. If there is any link it would be extremely minor, but I don't think we can definitively rule out some very remote connection. I've seen speculation about possible Y-DNA connections here and there (a tiny percentage of cases) but nothing definitive.

Mnemonics
02-21-2022, 06:25 PM
I'm being generous for the sake of scientific skepticism. If there is any link it would be extremely minor, but I don't think we can definitively rule out some very remote connection. I've seen speculation about possible Y-DNA connections here and there (a tiny percentage of cases) but nothing definitive.


Ashkenazi Jews show minor elevated East Eurisan in qpAdm but most of it seems have been part of some vaguely Eastern European type admixture rather than anything Turkic.





left pops:
Ashkenazi
Tunisian_Jew
Tuscan_1.DG
Greek_2.DG
Russian.DG

right pops:
South_Africa_400BP.SG
Cameroon_SMA.SG
Mota
South_Africa_HG
DevilsGate_N.SG
Yana_UP
Nepal_Samdzong_1500BP.SG
Kazakhstan_Botai_Eneolithic.SG
Barcin_N.SG
Iran_N.SG
Italy_N.SG
Italy_C.SG
Iran_Hasanlu_IA.SG
Kazakhstan_Turk.SG
Lebanon_MBA.SG
Lebanon_IA3.SG
Italy_Medieval_EarlyModern.SG
Italy_Medieval_EarlyModern_oCentralEuropean.SG
Greece_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA.SG
Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG
Greece_Minoan_Kephala_Petras.SG
Rome_Imperial.SG
Italy_IA_Republic.SG
CHG
Morocco_EN.SG
Guanche.SG
Italy_Mesolithic.SG
Romania_IronGates_Mesolithic.SG
Russia_BA_Okunevo.SG
Germany_EarlyMedieval.SG
Poland_Southeast_CordedWare.SG
Russia_Srubnaya_Alakul.SG

0 Ashkenazi 7
1 Tunisian_Jew 7
2 Tuscan_1.DG 2
3 Greek_2.DG 1
4 Russian.DG 2
5 South_Africa_400BP.SG 4
6 Cameroon_SMA.SG 3
7 Mota 1
8 South_Africa_HG 4
9 DevilsGate_N.SG 4
10 Yana_UP 2
11 Nepal_Samdzong_1500BP.SG 3
12 Kazakhstan_Botai_Eneolithic.SG 3
13 Barcin_N.SG 3
14 Iran_N.SG 4
15 Italy_N.SG 8
16 Italy_C.SG 3
17 Iran_Hasanlu_IA.SG 1
18 Kazakhstan_Turk.SG 2
19 Lebanon_MBA.SG 5
20 Lebanon_IA3.SG 8
21 Italy_Medieval_EarlyModern.SG 16
22 Italy_Medieval_EarlyModern_oCentralEuropean.SG 7
23 Greece_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA.SG 2
24 Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG 2
25 Greece_Minoan_Kephala_Petras.SG 1
26 Rome_Imperial.SG 42
27 Italy_IA_Republic.SG 7
28 CHG 2
29 Morocco_EN.SG 3
30 Guanche.SG 5
31 Italy_Mesolithic.SG 3
32 Romania_IronGates_Mesolithic.SG 3
33 Russia_BA_Okunevo.SG 14
34 Germany_EarlyMedieval.SG 21
35 Poland_Southeast_CordedWare.SG 13
36 Russia_Srubnaya_Alakul.SG 10
jackknife block size: 0.050
snps: 1150463 indivs: 228
number of blocks for block jackknife: 714
## ncols: 1150463
coverage: Ashkenazi 593124
coverage: Tunisian_Jew 593124
coverage: Tuscan_1.DG 1121308
coverage: Greek_2.DG 1118417
coverage: Russian.DG 1121371
coverage: South_Africa_400BP.SG 1150180
coverage: Cameroon_SMA.SG 1149654
coverage: Mota 1134612
coverage: South_Africa_HG 1135129
coverage: DevilsGate_N.SG 1134715
coverage: Yana_UP 1135189
coverage: Nepal_Samdzong_1500BP.SG 1149327
coverage: Kazakhstan_Botai_Eneolithic.SG 1149869
coverage: Barcin_N.SG 1150122
coverage: Iran_N.SG 1149571
coverage: Italy_N.SG 1142684
coverage: Italy_C.SG 1139317
coverage: Iran_Hasanlu_IA.SG 986397
coverage: Kazakhstan_Turk.SG 1033966
coverage: Lebanon_MBA.SG 1138714
coverage: Lebanon_IA3.SG 1144168
coverage: Italy_Medieval_EarlyModern.SG 1142871
coverage: Italy_Medieval_EarlyModern_oCentralEuropean.SG 1142524
coverage: Greece_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA.SG 1139387
coverage: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG 1149733
coverage: Greece_Minoan_Kephala_Petras.SG 1127351
coverage: Rome_Imperial.SG 1128055
coverage: Italy_IA_Republic.SG 1141006
coverage: CHG 1134595
coverage: Morocco_EN.SG 653097
coverage: Guanche.SG 1143329
coverage: Italy_Mesolithic.SG 1141309
coverage: Romania_IronGates_Mesolithic.SG 1136384
coverage: Russia_BA_Okunevo.SG 1149711
coverage: Germany_EarlyMedieval.SG 1148477
coverage: Poland_Southeast_CordedWare.SG 1144291
coverage: Russia_Srubnaya_Alakul.SG 1150042
Effective number of blocks: 609.870
numsnps used: 352526
codimension 1
f4info:
f4rank: 3 dof: 28 chisq: 23.943 tail: 0.68453346 dofdiff: 30 chisqdiff: -23.943 taildiff: 1
B:
scale 1.000 1.000 1.000
Cameroon_SMA.SG 0.010 -0.023 -0.415
Mota 0.133 0.147 0.074
South_Africa_HG 0.161 -0.452 -0.083
DevilsGate_N.SG 1.380 -1.361 0.556
Yana_UP 1.151 -0.641 0.769
Nepal_Samdzong_1500BP.SG 1.252 -1.056 0.632
Kazakhstan_Botai_Eneolithic.SG 2.020 -1.435 -0.117
Barcin_N.SG 0.133 1.373 -0.401
Iran_N.SG 0.346 0.912 1.471
Italy_N.SG 0.247 1.290 -0.250
Italy_C.SG 0.402 1.290 -0.308
Iran_Hasanlu_IA.SG 0.400 0.966 -0.544
Kazakhstan_Turk.SG 1.097 -0.255 0.967
Lebanon_MBA.SG 0.035 1.338 1.870
Lebanon_IA3.SG 0.104 1.219 0.751
Italy_Medieval_EarlyModern.SG 0.480 0.856 0.484
Italy_Medieval_EarlyModern_oCentralEuropean.SG 0.866 0.261 -0.796
Greece_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA.SG 0.294 0.886 1.890
Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG 0.690 0.836 -0.789
Greece_Minoan_Kephala_Petras.SG 0.141 1.493 -0.821
Rome_Imperial.SG 0.349 1.040 0.508
Italy_IA_Republic.SG 0.712 0.513 -1.268
CHG 0.676 0.985 2.166
Morocco_EN.SG -0.114 0.285 -0.114
Guanche.SG 0.137 0.313 -0.857
Italy_Mesolithic.SG 2.176 -1.787 -2.648
Romania_IronGates_Mesolithic.SG 2.180 -1.597 -1.164
Russia_BA_Okunevo.SG 1.728 -1.311 0.456
Germany_EarlyMedieval.SG 1.118 -0.067 -0.315
Poland_Southeast_CordedWare.SG 1.384 -0.609 -0.100
Russia_Srubnaya_Alakul.SG 1.421 -0.413 -0.077
A:
scale 1134.237 2831.554 6111.069
Tunisian_Jew -1.029 -0.941 -0.158
Tuscan_1.DG 0.845 1.124 -1.072
Greek_2.DG 0.439 1.199 1.675
Russian.DG 1.426 -0.643 0.144


full rank
f4info:
f4rank: 4 dof: 0 chisq: 0.000 tail: 1 dofdiff: 28 chisqdiff: 23.943 taildiff: 0.68453346
B:
scale 1060.269 1313.205 1669.856 690.969
Cameroon_SMA.SG -0.124 0.068 -0.317 0.037
Mota -0.243 0.162 0.256 0.112
South_Africa_HG -0.064 0.042 -0.100 0.244
DevilsGate_N.SG -1.175 0.212 0.030 1.450
Yana_UP -1.130 0.572 0.585 1.139
Nepal_Samdzong_1500BP.SG -0.996 0.484 0.464 1.384
Kazakhstan_Botai_Eneolithic.SG -1.498 1.307 0.347 2.096
Barcin_N.SG -0.740 1.036 1.019 -0.041
Iran_N.SG -0.805 0.452 1.779 0.288
Italy_N.SG -0.887 1.001 0.876 0.039
Italy_C.SG -1.031 1.142 0.894 0.155
Iran_Hasanlu_IA.SG -0.918 1.019 0.755 0.216
Kazakhstan_Turk.SG -1.106 0.769 1.136 1.157
Lebanon_MBA.SG -0.714 0.401 1.857 -0.108
Lebanon_IA3.SG -0.643 0.728 1.390 0.021
Italy_Medieval_EarlyModern.SG -0.890 0.963 1.213 0.365
Italy_Medieval_EarlyModern_oCentralEuropean.SG -1.010 1.277 0.562 0.766
Greece_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA.SG -0.793 0.502 1.907 0.202
Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG -1.102 1.342 0.813 0.501
Greece_Minoan_Kephala_Petras.SG -0.743 1.493 0.873 -0.061
Rome_Imperial.SG -0.839 0.852 1.251 0.219
Italy_IA_Republic.SG -1.006 1.253 0.357 0.567
CHG -1.241 0.603 2.345 0.494
Morocco_EN.SG -0.258 -0.177 -0.168 -0.216
Guanche.SG -0.400 0.623 0.051 0.111
Italy_Mesolithic.SG -1.458 2.089 -1.223 2.243
Romania_IronGates_Mesolithic.SG -1.623 1.732 -0.378 2.186
Russia_BA_Okunevo.SG -1.318 0.971 0.477 1.852
Germany_EarlyMedieval.SG -1.146 1.311 0.716 1.075
Poland_Southeast_CordedWare.SG -1.238 1.146 0.566 1.369
Russia_Srubnaya_Alakul.SG -1.399 1.222 0.607 1.324
A:
scale 2.000 2.000 2.000 2.000
Tunisian_Jew 2.000 0.000 0.000 0.000
Tuscan_1.DG 0.000 2.000 0.000 0.000
Greek_2.DG 0.000 0.000 2.000 0.000
Russian.DG 0.000 0.000 0.000 2.000


best coefficients: 0.448 0.244 0.188 0.121
Jackknife mean: 0.442790003 0.244998363 0.191755749 0.120455885
std. errors: 0.049 0.073 0.043 0.033

error covariance (* 1,000,000)
2419 -2145 -985 711
-2145 5270 -1102 -2023
-985 -1102 1872 216
711 -2023 216 1096


summ: Ashkenazi 4 0.684533 0.443 0.245 0.192 0.120 2419 -2145 -985 711 5270 ...
-1102 -2023 1872 216 1096

fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
0000 0 28 23.943 0.684533 0.448 0.244 0.188 0.121
0001 1 29 100.870 7.09616e-10 0.354 0.518 0.129 0.000
0010 1 29 47.065 0.0183362 0.525 0.396 0.000 0.079
0100 1 29 36.456 0.160649 0.513 0.000 0.273 0.214
1000 1 29 88.484 6.21911e-08 0.000 0.652 0.371 -0.023 infeasible
0011 2 30 51.417 0.00879618 0.473 0.527 0.000 0.000
0101 2 30 205.007 5.70471e-28 -2.670 0.000 3.670 0.000 infeasible
0110 2 30 66.531 0.000139237 0.768 0.000 0.000 0.232
1001 2 30 77.642 4.28532e-06 0.000 0.623 0.377 0.000
1010 2 30 118.726 1.6667e-12 0.000 1.332 0.000 -0.332 infeasible
1100 2 30 124.710 1.642e-13 0.000 0.000 0.764 0.236
0111 3 31 223.113 0 1.000 0.000 0.000 0.000
1011 3 31 126.101 1.99151e-13 0.000 1.000 0.000 0.000
1101 3 31 143.362 2.20881e-16 0.000 0.000 1.000 0.000
1110 3 31 769.626 0 0.000 0.000 0.000 1.000
best pat: 0000 0.684533 - -
best pat: 0100 0.160649 chi(nested): 12.513 p-value for nested model: 0.000404109
best pat: 0110 0.000139237 chi(nested): 30.075 p-value for nested model: 4.15662e-08
best pat: 1011 1.99151e-13 not nested

coeffs: 0.448 0.244 0.188 0.121

## dscore:: f_4(Base, Fit, Rbase, right2)
## genstat:: f_4(Base, Fit, right1, right2)

details: Tunisian_Jew Cameroon_SMA.SG -0.000117 -1.150506
details: Tuscan_1.DG Cameroon_SMA.SG 0.000052 0.360864
details: Greek_2.DG Cameroon_SMA.SG -0.000190 -1.053372
details: Russian.DG Cameroon_SMA.SG 0.000054 0.369915
dscore: Cameroon_SMA.SG f4: -0.000069 Z: -0.806504

details: Tunisian_Jew Mota -0.000229 -1.787126
details: Tuscan_1.DG Mota 0.000123 0.658598
details: Greek_2.DG Mota 0.000153 0.613624
details: Russian.DG Mota 0.000161 0.869571
dscore: Mota f4: -0.000024 Z: -0.205036

details: Tunisian_Jew South_Africa_HG -0.000060 -0.583904
details: Tuscan_1.DG South_Africa_HG 0.000032 0.220607
details: Greek_2.DG South_Africa_HG -0.000060 -0.336074
details: Russian.DG South_Africa_HG 0.000353 2.527126
dscore: South_Africa_HG f4: 0.000012 Z: 0.137285

details: Tunisian_Jew DevilsGate_N.SG -0.001109 -7.198354
details: Tuscan_1.DG DevilsGate_N.SG 0.000162 0.771649
details: Greek_2.DG DevilsGate_N.SG 0.000018 0.064500
details: Russian.DG DevilsGate_N.SG 0.002099 9.535143
dscore: DevilsGate_N.SG f4: -0.000200 Z: -1.504216

details: Tunisian_Jew Yana_UP -0.001066 -7.010201
details: Tuscan_1.DG Yana_UP 0.000436 2.063654
details: Greek_2.DG Yana_UP 0.000350 1.271704
details: Russian.DG Yana_UP 0.001648 7.783187
dscore: Yana_UP f4: -0.000106 Z: -0.817412

details: Tunisian_Jew Nepal_Samdzong_1500BP.SG -0.000940 -6.429200
details: Tuscan_1.DG Nepal_Samdzong_1500BP.SG 0.000369 1.932312
details: Greek_2.DG Nepal_Samdzong_1500BP.SG 0.000278 1.089177
details: Russian.DG Nepal_Samdzong_1500BP.SG 0.002004 9.955725
dscore: Nepal_Samdzong_1500BP.SG f4: -0.000036 Z: -0.297078

details: Tunisian_Jew Kazakhstan_Botai_Eneolithic.SG -0.001412 -9.010828
details: Tuscan_1.DG Kazakhstan_Botai_Eneolithic.SG 0.000996 4.800340
details: Greek_2.DG Kazakhstan_Botai_Eneolithic.SG 0.000208 0.803573
details: Russian.DG Kazakhstan_Botai_Eneolithic.SG 0.003034 14.547982
dscore: Kazakhstan_Botai_Eneolithic.SG f4: 0.000016 Z: 0.123647

details: Tunisian_Jew Barcin_N.SG -0.000698 -4.837061
details: Tuscan_1.DG Barcin_N.SG 0.000789 4.000572
details: Greek_2.DG Barcin_N.SG 0.000610 2.454200
details: Russian.DG Barcin_N.SG -0.000060 -0.296171
dscore: Barcin_N.SG f4: -0.000013 Z: -0.108421

details: Tunisian_Jew Iran_N.SG -0.000759 -5.390722
details: Tuscan_1.DG Iran_N.SG 0.000344 1.760625
details: Greek_2.DG Iran_N.SG 0.001065 4.488554
details: Russian.DG Iran_N.SG 0.000417 2.103283
dscore: Iran_N.SG f4: -0.000006 Z: -0.047202

details: Tunisian_Jew Italy_N.SG -0.000837 -5.905397
details: Tuscan_1.DG Italy_N.SG 0.000762 4.174228
details: Greek_2.DG Italy_N.SG 0.000525 2.287605
details: Russian.DG Italy_N.SG 0.000057 0.316521
dscore: Italy_N.SG f4: -0.000084 Z: -0.711222

details: Tunisian_Jew Italy_C.SG -0.000973 -6.429203
details: Tuscan_1.DG Italy_C.SG 0.000869 4.127474
details: Greek_2.DG Italy_C.SG 0.000535 2.162194
details: Russian.DG Italy_C.SG 0.000225 1.106938
dscore: Italy_C.SG f4: -0.000096 Z: -0.756766

details: Tunisian_Jew Iran_Hasanlu_IA.SG -0.000866 -4.701036
details: Tuscan_1.DG Iran_Hasanlu_IA.SG 0.000776 3.151175
details: Greek_2.DG Iran_Hasanlu_IA.SG 0.000452 1.467332
details: Russian.DG Iran_Hasanlu_IA.SG 0.000313 1.249760
dscore: Iran_Hasanlu_IA.SG f4: -0.000076 Z: -0.495888

details: Tunisian_Jew Kazakhstan_Turk.SG -0.001043 -6.288422
details: Tuscan_1.DG Kazakhstan_Turk.SG 0.000585 2.563314
details: Greek_2.DG Kazakhstan_Turk.SG 0.000680 2.290728
details: Russian.DG Kazakhstan_Turk.SG 0.001674 7.295045
dscore: Kazakhstan_Turk.SG f4: 0.000006 Z: 0.040552

details: Tunisian_Jew Lebanon_MBA.SG -0.000673 -5.071735
details: Tuscan_1.DG Lebanon_MBA.SG 0.000305 1.740181
details: Greek_2.DG Lebanon_MBA.SG 0.001112 4.958927
details: Russian.DG Lebanon_MBA.SG -0.000157 -0.870646
dscore: Lebanon_MBA.SG f4: -0.000037 Z: -0.344739

details: Tunisian_Jew Lebanon_IA3.SG -0.000607 -4.775516
details: Tuscan_1.DG Lebanon_IA3.SG 0.000554 3.282808
details: Greek_2.DG Lebanon_IA3.SG 0.000832 3.943671
details: Russian.DG Lebanon_IA3.SG 0.000031 0.176542
dscore: Lebanon_IA3.SG f4: 0.000023 Z: 0.221409

details: Tunisian_Jew Italy_Medieval_EarlyModern.SG -0.000840 -6.722522
details: Tuscan_1.DG Italy_Medieval_EarlyModern.SG 0.000733 4.558599
details: Greek_2.DG Italy_Medieval_EarlyModern.SG 0.000727 3.637171
details: Russian.DG Italy_Medieval_EarlyModern.SG 0.000528 3.153381
dscore: Italy_Medieval_EarlyModern.SG f4: 0.000003 Z: 0.029333

details: Tunisian_Jew Italy_Medieval_EarlyModern_oCentralEuropean.SG -0.000952 -7.251356
details: Tuscan_1.DG Italy_Medieval_EarlyModern_oCentralEuropean.SG 0.000972 5.534640
details: Greek_2.DG Italy_Medieval_EarlyModern_oCentralEuropean.SG 0.000336 1.569584
details: Russian.DG Italy_Medieval_EarlyModern_oCentralEuropean.SG 0.001109 6.259492
dscore: Italy_Medieval_EarlyModern_oCentralEuropean.SG f4: 0.000008 Z: 0.073721

details: Tunisian_Jew Greece_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA.SG -0.000748 -4.654613
details: Tuscan_1.DG Greece_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA.SG 0.000382 1.796783
details: Greek_2.DG Greece_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA.SG 0.001142 4.402191
details: Russian.DG Greece_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA.SG 0.000293 1.375045
dscore: Greece_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA.SG f4: 0.000008 Z: 0.060847

details: Tunisian_Jew Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG -0.001039 -6.828417
details: Tuscan_1.DG Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG 0.001022 4.923147
details: Greek_2.DG Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG 0.000487 1.857571
details: Russian.DG Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG 0.000725 3.430022
dscore: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG f4: -0.000037 Z: -0.299774

details: Tunisian_Jew Greece_Minoan_Kephala_Petras.SG -0.000700 -3.985924
details: Tuscan_1.DG Greece_Minoan_Kephala_Petras.SG 0.001137 4.602253
details: Greek_2.DG Greece_Minoan_Kephala_Petras.SG 0.000523 1.735579
details: Russian.DG Greece_Minoan_Kephala_Petras.SG -0.000088 -0.354502
dscore: Greece_Minoan_Kephala_Petras.SG f4: 0.000051 Z: 0.345950

details: Tunisian_Jew Rome_Imperial.SG -0.000791 -6.631571
details: Tuscan_1.DG Rome_Imperial.SG 0.000649 4.167865
details: Greek_2.DG Rome_Imperial.SG 0.000749 3.850385
details: Russian.DG Rome_Imperial.SG 0.000316 2.009023
dscore: Rome_Imperial.SG f4: -0.000017 Z: -0.179840

details: Tunisian_Jew Italy_IA_Republic.SG -0.000949 -6.928634
details: Tuscan_1.DG Italy_IA_Republic.SG 0.000954 5.503265
details: Greek_2.DG Italy_IA_Republic.SG 0.000214 0.952084
details: Russian.DG Italy_IA_Republic.SG 0.000821 4.509440
dscore: Italy_IA_Republic.SG f4: -0.000053 Z: -0.476669

details: Tunisian_Jew CHG -0.001171 -7.277199
details: Tuscan_1.DG CHG 0.000459 2.097080
details: Greek_2.DG CHG 0.001404 5.049846
details: Russian.DG CHG 0.000715 3.134325
dscore: CHG f4: -0.000062 Z: -0.449414

details: Tunisian_Jew Morocco_EN.SG -0.000243 -1.468434
details: Tuscan_1.DG Morocco_EN.SG -0.000135 -0.614574
details: Greek_2.DG Morocco_EN.SG -0.000101 -0.342213
details: Russian.DG Morocco_EN.SG -0.000312 -1.354088
dscore: Morocco_EN.SG f4: -0.000198 Z: -1.384093

details: Tunisian_Jew Guanche.SG -0.000377 -2.738429
details: Tuscan_1.DG Guanche.SG 0.000474 2.545842
details: Greek_2.DG Guanche.SG 0.000030 0.126561
details: Russian.DG Guanche.SG 0.000160 0.845794
dscore: Guanche.SG f4: -0.000028 Z: -0.247695

details: Tunisian_Jew Italy_Mesolithic.SG -0.001376 -8.219644
details: Tuscan_1.DG Italy_Mesolithic.SG 0.001591 6.845105
details: Greek_2.DG Italy_Mesolithic.SG -0.000732 -2.424864
details: Russian.DG Italy_Mesolithic.SG 0.003246 13.170858
dscore: Italy_Mesolithic.SG f4: 0.000027 Z: 0.186077

details: Tunisian_Jew Romania_IronGates_Mesolithic.SG -0.001531 -9.454802
details: Tuscan_1.DG Romania_IronGates_Mesolithic.SG 0.001319 6.058191
details: Greek_2.DG Romania_IronGates_Mesolithic.SG -0.000226 -0.818426
details: Russian.DG Romania_IronGates_Mesolithic.SG 0.003164 13.549500
dscore: Romania_IronGates_Mesolithic.SG f4: -0.000024 Z: -0.170595

details: Tunisian_Jew Russia_BA_Okunevo.SG -0.001243 -9.173559
details: Tuscan_1.DG Russia_BA_Okunevo.SG 0.000739 4.160801
details: Greek_2.DG Russia_BA_Okunevo.SG 0.000286 1.233375
details: Russian.DG Russia_BA_Okunevo.SG 0.002680 14.361367
dscore: Russia_BA_Okunevo.SG f4: 0.000001 Z: 0.011619

details: Tunisian_Jew Germany_EarlyMedieval.SG -0.001081 -8.427889
details: Tuscan_1.DG Germany_EarlyMedieval.SG 0.000998 5.662880
details: Greek_2.DG Germany_EarlyMedieval.SG 0.000429 1.996890
details: Russian.DG Germany_EarlyMedieval.SG 0.001556 8.783616
dscore: Germany_EarlyMedieval.SG f4: 0.000028 Z: 0.262789

details: Tunisian_Jew Poland_Southeast_CordedWare.SG -0.001167 -8.405920
details: Tuscan_1.DG Poland_Southeast_CordedWare.SG 0.000872 4.951365
details: Greek_2.DG Poland_Southeast_CordedWare.SG 0.000339 1.460722
details: Russian.DG Poland_Southeast_CordedWare.SG 0.001981 10.892653
dscore: Poland_Southeast_CordedWare.SG f4: -0.000007 Z: -0.059431

details: Tunisian_Jew Russia_Srubnaya_Alakul.SG -0.001320 -9.997829
details: Tuscan_1.DG Russia_Srubnaya_Alakul.SG 0.000931 5.423878
details: Greek_2.DG Russia_Srubnaya_Alakul.SG 0.000363 1.695132
details: Russian.DG Russia_Srubnaya_Alakul.SG 0.001915 10.605597
dscore: Russia_Srubnaya_Alakul.SG f4: -0.000064 Z: -0.597535

chum
02-21-2022, 06:28 PM
Probably Uralic via Russians

passenger
02-21-2022, 07:11 PM
Probably Uralic via Russians

Well, technically not Russians. Ashkenazi Jews only began living in the Russian Empire following the late 18th/19th century Russian conquest of what was then Poland, and they weren't permitted to live in Russia proper, mostly only in parts of Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania and Latvia. Most of the Eastern European admixture in Ashkenazim (which I think is probably not more than 10% of the overall composition for Eastern Ashkenazim) would have come from Poland/Lithuania and probably not later than the 17th century.

I'm not sure if the persistent minor East Asian percentage that has been detected in Ashkenazim is related to that or not. The common theory seems to be that it's related to Silk Road trade, which may be borne out by some models using averages from China, but I think it varies from individual to individual and some seem to model better with Siberian averages rather than Chinese ones.

chum
02-21-2022, 07:44 PM
Well, technically not Russians. Ashkenazi Jews only began living in the Russian Empire following the late 18th/19th century Russian conquest of what was then Poland, and they weren't permitted to live in Russia proper, mostly only in parts of Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania and Latvia. Most of the Eastern European admixture in Ashkenazim (which I think is probably not more than 10% of the overall composition for Eastern Ashkenazim) would have come from Poland/Lithuania and probably not later than the 17th century.

I'm not sure if the persistent minor East Asian percentage that has been detected in Ashkenazim is related to that or not. The common theory seems to be that it's related to Silk Road trade, which may be borne out by some models using averages from China, but I think it varies from individual to individual and some seem to model better with Siberian averages rather than Chinese ones.

Then maybe it's from Lipka Tatars?