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Alkaevli
07-16-2021, 05:19 PM
How to model present-day Iberians? I tried using the Iron Age samples (Iberians and Celtiberians?) but both Spaniards and Portuguese seem to have a lot of ancestry from various post-IA sources. Is the non-Iron Age Iberian part of their ancestry mostly Celtic?

Secondly, did most of the North African signal arrive during the Muslim period? Some of the Roman-period Iberian samples have higher levels of North African ancestry than modern Iberians, so at least some of it must be pre-Islamic.

Gil Vicente
07-16-2021, 06:15 PM
You need several Iron Age samples from Iberia. One from each language family would be ideal:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c8/Ethnographic_Iberia_200_BCE.PNG

Then you need a roman sample. A roman from Iberia would be ideal.

Then you need some germanic samples. Visigoth, Suebi, Vandal and Alan samples would be ideal.

Then you need a north african source. A moorish sample from Iberia would be ideal.

Using what is currently avaliable on G25 you have some Iron Age iberian samples from the northeast, some romans (not from Iberia) and some north africans as well (not from the moorish period).

Alkaevli
07-16-2021, 06:33 PM
Then you need a roman sample. A roman from Iberia would be ideal.

Do you think the Romans introduced a Rome_Imperial like genetic signal to Iberia? Or was it more similar to Early Italic/Latin samples?

Gil Vicente
07-16-2021, 06:35 PM
Do you think the Romans introduced a Rome_Imperial like genetic signal to Iberia? Or was it more similar to Early Italic/Latin samples?

I'm not sure, which is why we need a sample from that period in Iberia to be more accurate.

Shadogowah
07-16-2021, 07:35 PM
How to model present-day Iberians? I tried using the Iron Age samples (Iberians and Celtiberians?) but both Spaniards and Portuguese seem to have a lot of ancestry from various post-IA sources. Is the non-Iron Age Iberian part of their ancestry mostly Celtic?

Secondly, did most of the North African signal arrive during the Muslim period? Some of the Roman-period Iberian samples have higher levels of North African ancestry than modern Iberians, so at least some of it must be pre-Islamic.

Probably there are others here that can answer the first question much better than I.

Regarding the second, NA admixture indeed seems to have been much higher during Roman times but very likely the flow started centuries earlier introduced by Phoenicians and Carthaginians although it indeed reached its peak during Roman times. From that moment on it started a decline. We have discussed this in several threads and I expressed my opinion that the Crisis of the Third Century set an inflection point stopping drastically the movement of goods and people between Roman provinces (and thus the trade routes with Africa) and just a couple of centuries later the fall of the western empire and the arrival of the Germanic people would dilute more the NA admixture.

The Muslim invasion obviously contributed with more NA signal but the samples taken from Muslim graveyards present the image of a genetically heterogeneous population. This conveys the idea of a society made of chastes where Arabs occupy the pinnacle followed by other middle easterners, Berbers, Muladis (converted natives), Slavic and at the bottom Jews and Christians (actually the most of the population remained Christian by large during the first centuries).

I don't want to write thousands of lines about Spanish history here and many things happened in 700 years but in short yes, there was some degree of intermixing but we also had a process called "Reconquista" where the Christian kingdoms that had arisen in the north gradually extend themselves towards the south. They assimilated part of the population but they also became vectors that introduced people with very low or inexistent NA admixture into the south. The net result is a decrease of the NA admixture.

Muslim rule comes to an end when the last Muslim kingdom falls (Granada) in 1492. And the very same year, Colon sets foot in America. Moorish people living in Granada kingdom will be forced to resettle in other areas further away from the southeastern coast while their land is given to settlers from other regions.

A fraction of the remaining moorish population in Spain will be assimilated but a big group estimated in 300.000 people mostly living in the East of the country (kingdom of Aragon) will be deported during the XVII century.

At this point in time perhaps we can presume that the highest degree of NA admixture in Spain was concentrated in the southwest (Reino de Sevilla) but both migration to America and a few catastrophic plagues seem to have severely affected the population in this region that was refilled with migrants coming from the north with, once again, lower NA admixture. Sevilla hold the monopoly of American trade and was both a sort of demographic attraction pole and a gateway to America.

Summarizing to give an answer to your second question: during and after the Muslim rule there were very relevant population changes in Spain.

Luso
07-16-2021, 09:01 PM
2nd question:

While it is easy to assume a lot of North African DNA will be found in present-day Andalusia (especially given its proximity to North Africa), the Reconquista northern migrations into the south seem to have decreased it sizably. While, in Portugal despite having similar migrations of northern people into the south + Germanics, the North African percentage had maintained a much higher concentration than much of Spain. And in fact, if you look at a map of this admixture you'll notice the more west you go the higher the North African will be.

Figure:
https://media.springernature.com/lw685/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41467-018-08272-w/MediaObjects/41467_2018_8272_Fig2_HTML.png?as=webp
Speculation:

Galicia, the most North Western region in all of Spain has similar amounts of North African admixture to the rest of Portugal... even though the Moorish invaders never reached this far. This adds a lot of variables to understanding where the elevated North African admixture comes from. Since I'm no expert, I will only say my opinion - which is that a lot of the Moorish population moved into northwestern areas of the peninsula and intermixed before the majority of North to south migrations even began. It seems the North African populations avoided the east side of the peninsula and lived more at the west end... If that's because there was less of a strict movement to eliminate moors in the west because of deals of converting... I'm not sure, but also there wasn't a Sangre Azul movement in Portugal either. Hypothetically if Portugal did have the Sangre Azul movement, it surely would have brought not only "pure" Iberians but northern foreigner extract as well.

Also, there is a possibility that ancient North African admixture might have been present in decent amounts throughout the western end of the peninsula, and we know because of higher concentrations of North African, Roman, and Phoenician haplogroups. But then the question comes up of why Andalusia, which is closer to North Africa, still has less NA admixture? Surely it's not from North Africans settling west in ancient times because they enjoyed it more than the rest of the peninsula- in fact, I'm sure the ancient admixture would be pretty uniform throughout the southern areas. So, the more modern admixture we see today cannot just be due to ancient North African. That is unless, in theory, long ago a huge wave of Northern Africans settled pretty much exclusively in the western side of the peninsula in mountains and heavily intermixed with the native populations. Then we can also add Roman conquests to this equation which could have brought some NA admixture to Portugal and Galicia... although that admixture would be probably equally affecting the entire peninsula below the Basques.

Conclusion:

At this point, it's too early to assume that the north African admixture is mostly medieval, or not, bc we need more data to accurately quantify the specific levels of ancient admixture in the Iberian genome. I will say though that there has always been an ancient North African connection to (at least the south) of Spain and Portugal responsible, but clearly, the more modern elevated admixture showing up (mostly in the west) presents very high importance to Moorish medieval conquest.

It also makes me wonder if the eastern end of the peninsula's had a higher emphasis on their north to south repopulations. I mean this in terms of Spanish going so far as to bring in French and other northern foreigners in order to effectively decrease the native Spanish's North African admixture. Many of these questions will hopefully be answered as more studies are brought to the public's eye.

mokordo
07-17-2021, 09:53 AM
All is already said.

The general rule would be: Iberian reference / references of that time + contributions later in that time.

As the main inputs suposedly came since the muslim invasion we are usually modelled taking the Iron Age as time of reference.

We need at least 3 references representing the 3 main groups of "IA Iberians" (NW Iberians-"Iberian Celts"/Center Iberians-"Celtiberian"/East and South Iberians-"Iberians")+ all the groups of populations that could be contributing genetic components after that time.

The North African references many times masks other contributions (Levant / Middle East / Arab / SSA), and even some NA references have a good Iberian contribution (and /or South European), so the ideal would be to have a Berber reference as pure as possible.

Something similar happens with the Central and North European references, it is often difficult to discriminate Germanic / Scandinavian / British Isles contributions. The Celtic contribution itself present in the Iberian people interferes with those components too.

For modern Iberians or modern calculator/models is enough Spanish and Portuguese modern regional references / references of that time + more usual foreign inputs.

We have done all this many times with many models, so more or less we have a clear idea of ​​how we are. As the list of references is expanded with new samples, you can change something, but not in a substantial way.(I guess but I could be wrong).

mokordo
07-17-2021, 10:00 AM
Oh yes, and about many non-European inputs present in modern Iberians, many of them were present already in ancient times.

There is a recurring debate on how to separate or discriminate the ancient contribution of the NA or the Levantine / Eastern Mediterranean or the more modern contribution that came with the Muslim rule of a large part of the Iberian peninsula.

I think the most logical thing is that most of it came from 711 AD, but we know that especially the NA component was present in the ancient Iberians too.

rober_tce
07-18-2021, 09:36 AM
Oh yes, and about many non-European inputs present in modern Iberians, many of them were present already in ancient times.

There is a recurring debate on how to separate or discriminate the ancient contribution of the NA or the Levantine / Eastern Mediterranean or the more modern contribution that came with the Muslim rule of a large part of the Iberian peninsula.

I think the most logical thing is that most of it came from 711 AD, but we know that especially the NA component was present in the ancient Iberians too.

I’m agree with you, the main apportation that can remains in our genetic must be of medieval origin. Of course, there is also ancient NA markers present in our genome, we have prooved it with many models.

Xemks
07-18-2021, 12:47 PM
I've recently tried a new calculator on Vahaduo G25, (Onur) Ultimate World Deep Ancestry Calculator, which gives modern Iberians some ~4-5% "Morocco_Early_Neolithic_Farmer_MAR_EN", that's the name in the calculator but the sample on the datasheets for G25 is just "MAR_EN".

Morocco_Early_Neolithic_Farmer_MAR_EN,-0.1735805,0.0919055,-0.0258325,-0.083657,0.0283125,-0.0596825,-0.079316,0.021461,0.1500185,0.0043735,0.0222475,-0.0264515,0.075148,-0.0461725,0.069353,-0.03381,0.0171455,-0.05549,-0.1487635,0.0340785,-0.038245,-0.118212,0.0826995,-0.009941,0.021615

I've been looking some studies on this population and I found one I think it's good and I'd like to share it here: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/325729790_Ancient_genomes_from_North_Africa_eviden ce_prehistoric_migrations_to_the_Maghreb_from_both _the_Levant_and_Europe

Links to download in case you can't from the original:
Study: https://disk.yandex.com/i/xoyRd9jQm4850A
Supplementary Notes: https://disk.yandex.com/i/ukJTLZBTsOef9g

I'll leave some pics here:
The supposed population equivalent is tagged as "IAM".

PCA:
45602

Admixture K8:
45603

Fst:
45604

You can also find f3 and f4 statistics in Supplementary Notes, but I don't know much about them yet, so any interpretation on the information they give is welcomed.

Do you know anything more about this population? If I remember correctly, modern Moroccans had like ~40% admixture of MAR_EN according to that calculator on Vahaduo. Could that sample be suitable to be used to research on modern and ancient Iberians' African admixture before their contact with the Muslim entrance in 711?

Aben Aboo
07-18-2021, 01:58 PM
With all average maghrebis samples (just i add 1 sample "chaoui" wich is an algerian population), the average is around 28,8% for the ibero component in all North Africa (except Egyptians and Maghrebis jewish populations) with the Onur's deep calculator:
4560945610
If we look all average samples for moroccans, average is more like around 33-35%, it is pretty high (around 1/3 of the genetic make-up of Moroccans).

Luso
07-19-2021, 04:11 AM
2nd question:


Conclusion:

At this point, it's too early to assume that the north African admixture is mostly medieval, or not, bc we need more data to accurately quantify the specific levels of ancient admixture in the Iberian genome. I will say though that there has always been an ancient North African connection to (at least the south) of Spain and Portugal responsible, but clearly, the more modern elevated admixture showing up (mostly in the west) presents very high importance to Moorish medieval conquest.



Good video for basics of Portugal's Islamic/Moorish Influence:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptyrGaQcPHE&t=380s

I will say- I think there is one illogical point in the video which seems to be due to a bit of modern political agenda and this is regarding the idea that: "it was the moors land". I do not agree with this. Without getting into the political sphere :biggrin1:, I'm gonna look at this with a pre-Reconquista lens- before the consolidation of Portugal. Under this lens, it wasn't definitively anyone's land because, before the moors, MANYYYYY other people occupied and left genetic, and cultural traces on whoever were the latest "natives" of the land. For example, in southern Portugal, it was the Visigoth's land at the time. So the idea of the moors taking "our" land is a bit of a faulty one because with such logic it's accepting that the Visigoths represent "us" more than the moors? I don't believe so because what it comes down to is that both were invaders, not natural to the land, and who took over previous owners. Additionally, in the north of Portugal there was Suebi influence, and before that the Romans which was pretty substantial. The point is- there were lots and lots of different peoples occupying land, taking it from previous occupants, intermingling with them, and the cycle repeated for a very long time.

I do agree that many have a hard time accepting that the moorish conquest has had some practical influences in Iberia. And also that even many years later we see there are linguistic, technological and genetic remnants from this past.

Lebouz
07-19-2021, 04:29 AM
Luso Is that who I think It Is??? lol. seem this place Is full of exiled members you know from where...

mokordo
07-19-2021, 08:32 AM
Do you know anything more about this population? If I remember correctly, modern Moroccans had like ~40% admixture of MAR_EN according to that calculator on Vahaduo. Could that sample be suitable to be used to research on modern and ancient Iberians' African admixture before their contact with the Muslim entrance in 711?


MAR_EN:IAM.5,-0.180979,0.091398,-0.018856,-0.090117,0.030159,-0.05773,-0.076848,0.021461,0.154825,-0.001458,0.024521,-0.025178,0.078047,-0.047755,0.07356,-0.034738,0.007171,-0.060811,-0.147695,0.044771,-0.041053,-0.121427,0.083439,-0.007109,0.027782
MAR_EN:IAM.7,-0.166182,0.092413,-0.032809,-0.077197,0.026466,-0.061635,-0.081784,0.021461,0.145212,0.010205,0.019974,-0.027725,0.072249,-0.04459,0.065146,-0.032882,0.02712,-0.050169,-0.149832,0.023386,-0.035437,-0.114997,0.08196,-0.012773,0.015448

Target: MAR_EN:IAM.5
Distance: 2.7995% / 0.02799474
98.8 MAR_Taforalt
1.2 Levant_PPNB

Target: MAR_EN:IAM.7
Distance: 4.2267% / 0.04226652
94.0 MAR_Taforalt
5.2 TUR_Barcin_N
0.8 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728

From what can be seen, they are basically Mesolithic individuals from that region, that begin to show the first Neolithic genetic contributions, in very small quantities.

mokordo
07-19-2021, 08:33 AM
Luso Is that who I think It Is??? lol. seem this place Is full of exiled members you know from where...

And who are you?

Alexander87
07-19-2021, 04:54 PM
2nd question:

While it is easy to assume a lot of North African DNA will be found in present-day Andalusia (especially given its proximity to North Africa), the Reconquista northern migrations into the south seem to have decreased it sizably. While, in Portugal despite having similar migrations of northern people into the south + Germanics, the North African percentage had maintained a much higher concentration than much of Spain. And in fact, if you look at a map of this admixture you'll notice the more west you go the higher the North African will be.

Figure:
https://media.springernature.com/lw685/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41467-018-08272-w/MediaObjects/41467_2018_8272_Fig2_HTML.png?as=webp
Speculation:

Galicia, the most North Western region in all of Spain has similar amounts of North African admixture to the rest of Portugal... even though the Moorish invaders never reached this far. This adds a lot of variables to understanding where the elevated North African admixture comes from. Since I'm no expert, I will only say my opinion - which is that a lot of the Moorish population moved into northwestern areas of the peninsula and intermixed before the majority of North to south migrations even began. It seems the North African populations avoided the east side of the peninsula and lived more at the west end... If that's because there was less of a strict movement to eliminate moors in the west because of deals of converting... I'm not sure, but also there wasn't a Sangre Azul movement in Portugal either. Hypothetically if Portugal did have the Sangre Azul movement, it surely would have brought not only "pure" Iberians but northern foreigner extract as well.

Also, there is a possibility that ancient North African admixture might have been present in decent amounts throughout the western end of the peninsula, and we know because of higher concentrations of North African, Roman, and Phoenician haplogroups. But then the question comes up of why Andalusia, which is closer to North Africa, still has less NA admixture? Surely it's not from North Africans settling west in ancient times because they enjoyed it more than the rest of the peninsula- in fact, I'm sure the ancient admixture would be pretty uniform throughout the southern areas. So, the more modern admixture we see today cannot just be due to ancient North African. That is unless, in theory, long ago a huge wave of Northern Africans settled pretty much exclusively in the western side of the peninsula in mountains and heavily intermixed with the native populations. Then we can also add Roman conquests to this equation which could have brought some NA admixture to Portugal and Galicia... although that admixture would be probably equally affecting the entire peninsula below the Basques.

Conclusion:

At this point, it's too early to assume that the north African admixture is mostly medieval, or not, bc we need more data to accurately quantify the specific levels of ancient admixture in the Iberian genome. I will say though that there has always been an ancient North African connection to (at least the south) of Spain and Portugal responsible, but clearly, the more modern elevated admixture showing up (mostly in the west) presents very high importance to Moorish medieval conquest.

It also makes me wonder if the eastern end of the peninsula's had a higher emphasis on their north to south repopulations. I mean this in terms of Spanish going so far as to bring in French and other northern foreigners in order to effectively decrease the native Spanish's North African admixture. Many of these questions will hopefully be answered as more studies are brought to the public's eye.

Are you asking if the Spanish brought in French and other northern neighbors to help populate the peninsula or are you saying that it did in fact happen? I read an article on Wikipedia that stated one if the north eastern provinces, I think Navarre, brought in people from France during the medieval age. I think mostly from Occitan. But if you know anymore on this could you share your resources. I'm really interested in this.

mokordo
07-19-2021, 05:15 PM
Are you asking if the Spanish brought in French and other northern neighbors to help populate the peninsula or are you saying that it did in fact happen? I read an article on Wikipedia that stated one if the north eastern provinces, I think Navarre, brought in people from France during the medieval age. I think mostly from Occitan. But if you know anymore on this could you share your resources. I'm really interested in this.

The settlement of Frankish along the Camino de Santiago is relatively well documented.

There were several kingdoms and territories during the Middle Ages that had territories both north and south of the Pyrenees. Navarra and Aragon are two good examples.

It is also common for troops from territories currently in France to participate in battles, or in the defense of border areas with Muslims.

For example:

https://dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/tesis?codigo=182802

https://ifc.dpz.es/recursos/publicaciones/06/68/01garciamouton.pdf

http://www.vallenajerilla.com/berceo/santiago/colonizacionfranca.htm

Edit:In Spanish, sorry.

alejandromb92
07-19-2021, 05:29 PM
My Y-DNA could have been brought by a frank. The province where my paternal surname comes from was part of the ones that the franks populated.

rober_tce
07-19-2021, 05:46 PM
Genetically make sense the presence of Franks in Navarra. It explains certain french results in some iberians through some companies (for example Ethnogene). By other side, we have some clades refered to Y DNA as explained Alejandro, or some spanish names, the most clear of this influence is “Franco”.

rober_tce
07-19-2021, 05:54 PM
Good video for basics of Portugal's Islamic/Moorish Influence:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptyrGaQcPHE&t=380s

I will say- I think there is one illogical point in the video which seems to be due to a bit of modern political agenda and this is regarding the idea that: "it was the moors land". I do not agree with this. Without getting into the political sphere :biggrin1:, I'm gonna look at this with a pre-Reconquista lens- before the consolidation of Portugal. Under this lens, it wasn't definitively anyone's land because, before the moors, MANYYYYY other people occupied and left genetic, and cultural traces on whoever were the latest "natives" of the land. For example, in southern Portugal, it was the Visigoth's land at the time. So the idea of the moors taking "our" land is a bit of a faulty one because with such logic it's accepting that the Visigoths represent "us" more than the moors? I don't believe so because what it comes down to is that both were invaders, not natural to the land, and who took over previous owners. Additionally, in the north of Portugal there was Suebi influence, and before that the Romans which was pretty substantial. The point is- there were lots and lots of different peoples occupying land, taking it from previous occupants, intermingling with them, and the cycle repeated for a very long time.

I do agree that many have a hard time accepting that the moorish conquest has had some practical influences in Iberia. And also that even many years later we see there are linguistic, technological and genetic remnants from this past.

Polithics my friend. A hidden ideology that continues in Iberian Peninsula after 500 years, and overall I think, in Spain. Muslims were cruel invaders, but goths were refinated people and very spanish, and romans of course arrived to Iberia of pacific way, Pompei Magnus was in fact the most pacific general in the history of Rome…

The Clean Bloodlines Rules (Estatutos de Limpieza de Sangre, no sé si está bien dicho en inglés), made the planned effect, althought the influence remain in all aspects, including genetics.

alejandromb92
07-19-2021, 06:07 PM
2nd question:

While it is easy to assume a lot of North African DNA will be found in present-day Andalusia (especially given its proximity to North Africa), the Reconquista northern migrations into the south seem to have decreased it sizably. While, in Portugal despite having similar migrations of northern people into the south + Germanics, the North African percentage had maintained a much higher concentration than much of Spain. And in fact, if you look at a map of this admixture you'll notice the more west you go the higher the North African will be.

Figure:
https://media.springernature.com/lw685/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41467-018-08272-w/MediaObjects/41467_2018_8272_Fig2_HTML.png?as=webp
Speculation:

Galicia, the most North Western region in all of Spain has similar amounts of North African admixture to the rest of Portugal... even though the Moorish invaders never reached this far. This adds a lot of variables to understanding where the elevated North African admixture comes from. Since I'm no expert, I will only say my opinion - which is that a lot of the Moorish population moved into northwestern areas of the peninsula and intermixed before the majority of North to south migrations even began. It seems the North African populations avoided the east side of the peninsula and lived more at the west end... If that's because there was less of a strict movement to eliminate moors in the west because of deals of converting... I'm not sure, but also there wasn't a Sangre Azul movement in Portugal either. Hypothetically if Portugal did have the Sangre Azul movement, it surely would have brought not only "pure" Iberians but northern foreigner extract as well.

Also, there is a possibility that ancient North African admixture might have been present in decent amounts throughout the western end of the peninsula, and we know because of higher concentrations of North African, Roman, and Phoenician haplogroups. But then the question comes up of why Andalusia, which is closer to North Africa, still has less NA admixture? Surely it's not from North Africans settling west in ancient times because they enjoyed it more than the rest of the peninsula- in fact, I'm sure the ancient admixture would be pretty uniform throughout the southern areas. So, the more modern admixture we see today cannot just be due to ancient North African. That is unless, in theory, long ago a huge wave of Northern Africans settled pretty much exclusively in the western side of the peninsula in mountains and heavily intermixed with the native populations. Then we can also add Roman conquests to this equation which could have brought some NA admixture to Portugal and Galicia... although that admixture would be probably equally affecting the entire peninsula below the Basques.

Conclusion:

At this point, it's too early to assume that the north African admixture is mostly medieval, or not, bc we need more data to accurately quantify the specific levels of ancient admixture in the Iberian genome. I will say though that there has always been an ancient North African connection to (at least the south) of Spain and Portugal responsible, but clearly, the more modern elevated admixture showing up (mostly in the west) presents very high importance to Moorish medieval conquest.

It also makes me wonder if the eastern end of the peninsula's had a higher emphasis on their north to south repopulations. I mean this in terms of Spanish going so far as to bring in French and other northern foreigners in order to effectively decrease the native Spanish's North African admixture. Many of these questions will hopefully be answered as more studies are brought to the public's eye.

This map is one of the most accurate in terms of iberian genetics. I discovered that the distribution of surnames and clades of the DF27 largely match with that map. I'm doing a fairly amateur study on the frequency of clades of J2 and E1b based on this map, to see how much they match.

Luso
07-19-2021, 07:46 PM
[/B]
Muslims were cruel invaders, but goths were refinated people and very spanish, and romans of course arrived to Iberia of pacific way, Pompei Magnus was in fact the most pacific general in the history of Rome…



I disagree, especially if we are talking about the original Visigoths... who were invaders like no others and just as ruthless in their methods of taking over. You are talking about a year's process of the full romanization of the Visigoths (sure some were already romanticized, but many weren't) which adapted to Latinate customs and law, and of course, had reconciled with the Roman Church. + I don't know about Spain, but in Portugal I've never heard of this romanization, I don't believe it happened there??? In Spain maybe because they have a bigger conscience of the "Hispania visigótica". But anyway, I do not consider them the same as when they were invading Iberia largely as Barbarians... only after years of mixing with the native population which was heavily romanized already, and adopting a new culture, they became like the new "natives". It's a process that happens a lot throughout the Iberian Peninsula's history, and it's a grim one because a lot of our native populations each after the other basically got culturally replaced and genetically mixed through celt, roman, Suebi, Visigothic, other goths occupation, etc. The moors were just another invader, arguably more ruthless or not... that's what they were, just like the Visigoths whose governing system was exposed bc of how poor it was, making the close North African population invading inevitable. Look, the point is only when we consider the Romans as more significant and part of US than anything else, do we find it acceptable to feel closer to Visigoths because of the process of romanization which both North Africans and Visigoths seemed to rarely accept. But is that really who we are? Romans? Romans may have passively came into Iberia and gave us many beneficial things, but before them, the population was very different too and the occupants on the land at that time were fighting against them. Overall, I think when you look at history, it's better to not fall into the bias of wanting to identify with one invading culture more than the other, because all of this happened and it's part of us no matter what.

I don't want to argue about this though, it's just my opinion.

Pedro Ruben
07-19-2021, 08:08 PM
I disagree, especially if we are talking about the original Visigoths... who were invaders like no others and just as ruthless in their methods of taking over. You are talking about a year's process of the full romanization of the Visigoths (sure some were already romanticized, but many weren't) which adapted to Latinate customs and law, and of course, had reconciled with the Roman Church. I do not consider them the same as when they were invading Iberia largely as Barbarians... only after years of mixing with the native population which was heavily romanticized already, and adopting a new culture, they became like the new "natives". It's a process that happens a lot throughout the Iberian Peninsula's history, and it's a grim one because a lot of our native populations each after the other basically got culturally replaced and genetically mixed through celt, roman, Suebi, Visigothic, other goths occupation, etc. The moors were just another invader, arguably more ruthless or not... that's what they were, just like the Visigoths whose governing system was exposed bc of how poor it was, making the close North African population invading inevitable. Look, the point is only when we consider the Romans as more significant and part of the US than anything else, do we find it acceptable to feel closer to Visigoths because of the process of romanization which North Africans rarely accepted. But is that really who we are? Romans? Romans may have passively came into Iberia and gave us many beneficial things, but before them, the population was very different too and we were fighting against them. Overall, I think when you look at history, it's better to not fall into the bias of wanting to identify with one invading culture more than the other, because it happened and it's part of us no matter what.

I don't want to argue about this though, it's just my opinion.

I totally agree... as I have said many times, we are the genetic and cultural mix of these different peoples, and some of them were not European (although some do not want to accept the reality)

rober_tce
07-19-2021, 09:59 PM
I disagree, especially if we are talking about the original Visigoths... who were invaders like no others and just as ruthless in their methods of taking over. You are talking about a year's process of the full romanization of the Visigoths (sure some were already romanticized, but many weren't) which adapted to Latinate customs and law, and of course, had reconciled with the Roman Church. + I don't know about Spain, but in Portugal I've never heard of this romanization, I don't believe it happened there??? In Spain maybe because they have a bigger conscience of the "Hispania visigótica". But anyway, I do not consider them the same as when they were invading Iberia largely as Barbarians... only after years of mixing with the native population which was heavily romanized already, and adopting a new culture, they became like the new "natives". It's a process that happens a lot throughout the Iberian Peninsula's history, and it's a grim one because a lot of our native populations each after the other basically got culturally replaced and genetically mixed through celt, roman, Suebi, Visigothic, other goths occupation, etc. The moors were just another invader, arguably more ruthless or not... that's what they were, just like the Visigoths whose governing system was exposed bc of how poor it was, making the close North African population invading inevitable. Look, the point is only when we consider the Romans as more significant and part of the US than anything else, do we find it acceptable to feel closer to Visigoths because of the process of romanization which both North Africans and Visigoths seemed to rarely accept. But is that really who we are? Romans? Romans may have passively came into Iberia and gave us many beneficial things, but before them, the population was very different too and the occupants on the land at that time were fighting against them. Overall, I think when you look at history, it's better to not fall into the bias of wanting to identify with one invading culture more than the other, because all of this happened and it's part of us no matter what.

I don't want to argue about this though, it's just my opinion.

Ad contrary, I was ironizing about this question. I’m totally agree with you. Precissely, your point of view is the same that I have defended many years in some circles. By this reason, for me the word “Reconquista” is a political definition, that don’t make sense when we take in consideration that not only berbers were invaders, also goths, romans, cartaghineses, alans, vandals… even celtics people.

The point is, arabs and berbers were fanatics and uncivilisated, but goths were the best civilisation that conquered Hispania? It’s other lie more. Goths people were partially romanisated when arrived to Hispania, but they weren’t refinated at all if we compare them with romans. Of course, “very spanish people” sentence refered to goths was other irony…

Of course, when I said Pompei Magnus was pacific, is totally the opposite… his methods were not diplomatics precissely.

I’m a little sarcastic in certain contexts hahaha

rober_tce
07-19-2021, 10:00 PM
I totally agree... as I have said many times, we are the genetic and cultural mix of these different peoples, and some of them were not European (although some do not want to accept the reality)

This is the point that many spanish for example don’t want to see. In Portugal there are also the same tendence about it?

Pedro Ruben
07-20-2021, 11:35 AM
This is the point that many spanish for example don’t want to see. In Portugal there are also the same tendence about it?

In Portugal, I think there is more ignorance about these issues than it is difficult to accept ... informed people understand that the ancient peoples who lived here contributed to what Portugal is today, genetically or culturally ... not considering any of them inferior (of course I'm not talking about fanatics who appear on some forums saying: brunette iberians - morenos - cannot be Iberians :D )

mokordo
07-20-2021, 12:30 PM
In Portugal, I think there is more ignorance about these issues than it is difficult to accept ... informed people understand that the ancient peoples who lived here contributed to what Portugal is today, genetically or culturally ... not considering any of them inferior (of course I'm not talking about fanatics who appear on some forums saying: brunette iberians - morenos - cannot be Iberians :D )

Those who made Spain or Portugal respected, admired, envied and feared countries had the same genetic makeup as the current Spanish and Portuguese, so nothing to be ashamed of.

Cabaon
07-20-2021, 01:02 PM
I've recently tried a new calculator on Vahaduo G25, (Onur) Ultimate World Deep Ancestry Calculator, which gives modern Iberians some ~4-5% "Morocco_Early_Neolithic_Farmer_MAR_EN", that's the name in the calculator but the sample on the datasheets for G25 is just "MAR_EN".

Morocco_Early_Neolithic_Farmer_MAR_EN,-0.1735805,0.0919055,-0.0258325,-0.083657,0.0283125,-0.0596825,-0.079316,0.021461,0.1500185,0.0043735,0.0222475,-0.0264515,0.075148,-0.0461725,0.069353,-0.03381,0.0171455,-0.05549,-0.1487635,0.0340785,-0.038245,-0.118212,0.0826995,-0.009941,0.021615

I've been looking some studies on this population and I found one I think it's good and I'd like to share it here: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/325729790_Ancient_genomes_from_North_Africa_eviden ce_prehistoric_migrations_to_the_Maghreb_from_both _the_Levant_and_Europe

Links to download in case you can't from the original:
Study: https://disk.yandex.com/i/xoyRd9jQm4850A
Supplementary Notes: https://disk.yandex.com/i/ukJTLZBTsOef9g

I'll leave some pics here:
The supposed population equivalent is tagged as "IAM".

PCA:
45602

Admixture K8:
45603

Fst:
45604

You can also find f3 and f4 statistics in Supplementary Notes, but I don't know much about them yet, so any interpretation on the information they give is welcomed.

Do you know anything more about this population? If I remember correctly, modern Moroccans had like ~40% admixture of MAR_EN according to that calculator on Vahaduo. Could that sample be suitable to be used to research on modern and ancient Iberians' African admixture before their contact with the Muslim entrance in 711?



How to model present-day Iberians? I tried using the Iron Age samples (Iberians and Celtiberians?) but both Spaniards and Portuguese seem to have a lot of ancestry from various post-IA sources. Is the non-Iron Age Iberian part of their ancestry mostly Celtic?

Secondly, did most of the North African signal arrive during the Muslim period? Some of the Roman-period Iberian samples have higher levels of North African ancestry than modern Iberians, so at least some of it must be pre-Islamic.

Average north african score around 30% MAR_EN so no it's not a good way to model iberians with it since the north africans who settled and mix with iberians were only partially MAR_EN. The best way to model iberians overall is to use an iron age iberian source, republican romans, guanches and in some cases germanic and levantine samples are also needed (for the levantine sample I would use either modern samaritans or an iron age sample from southern levant)

mokordo
07-20-2021, 01:12 PM
Average north african score around 30% MAR_EN so no it's not a good way to model iberians with it since the north africans who settled and mix with iberians were only partially MAR_EN. The best way to model iberians overall is to use an iron age iberian source, republican romans, guanches and in some cases germanic and levantine samples are also needed (for the levantine sample I would use either modern samaritans or an iron age sample from southern levant)

If we use Iberian samples from the Iron Age without any NA/SSA/Levant/Arab contribution, we should in turn use NA samples from the same era without any Iberian or European input, and we could model better both the Iberians and North Africans.

Isn't there an old or modern NA sample that lacks any South European component? I mean, something similar to Basque individuals but in Berber.

Cabaon
07-20-2021, 01:21 PM
If we use Iberian samples from the Iron Age without any NA/SSA/Levant/Arab contribution, we should in turn use NA samples from the same era without any Iberian or European input, and we could model better both the Iberians and North Africans.

Isn't there an old or modern NA sample that lacks any South European component? I mean, something similar to Basque individuals but in Berber.

Most of the iberian iron age samples show profiles similar to modern day basques so they are representative of their era while a north african source without it's "EEF/steppe" component wouldn't be representative of any ancient north african. EEF ancestry was already present in north africa during the late neolithic and steppe ancestry appeared during the bronze age with the settlements of bell beaker iberians/italians in the Maghreb.

That's why when we put a guanche source, iberians tend to score around 8-15% which is in total accordance with what the studies tell us. Like I said many times If a north african has a child with his spanish wife their child won't simply be 15% north african.

mokordo
07-20-2021, 03:29 PM
Most of the iberian iron age samples show profiles similar to modern day basques so they are representative of their era while a north african source without it's "EEF/steppe" component wouldn't be representative of any ancient north african. EEF ancestry was already present in north africa during the late neolithic and steppe ancestry appeared during the bronze age with the settlements of bell beaker iberians/italians in the Maghreb.

That's why when we put a guanche source, iberians tend to score around 8-15% which is in total accordance with what the studies tell us. Like I said many times If a north african has a child with his spanish wife their child won't simply be 15% north african.

You're not telling me anything that I don't already know.

I will repeat what I said:

If we use Iberian samples from the Iron Age without any NA/SSA/Levant/Arab contribution, we should in turn use NA samples from the same era without any Iberian or European input, and we could model better both the Iberians and North Africans.

Isn't there an old or modern NA sample that lacks any South European component? I mean, something similar to Basque individuals but in Berber.

mokordo
07-20-2021, 03:55 PM
....

If the Basques are used, or ancient samples that resemble them, it is not because all the inhabitants of all the areas of the Iberian Peninsula were like the current Basques, but rather because in the absence of more samples, and assuming that the Basques are like that. due to their isolation, they are used as a base. We had at least 3 Iberian peoples in the peninsula when Romans arrived (at least culturally and considered natives)

If the Guanches are used as NAs, it is not because the NAs were really like the Guanches, but for a similar reason, in this case even more extreme, since there is no other sample from similar times that comes even remotely close to the Guanches. Current NA.

That is, it is what there is, and it is what we use, it´s ok, but we need improve this.

And no, not for all Basques the most closest ancient sample is "Iberia IA", and not all "Iberia IA" have 0 % NA, and basques are not the ony that nowadays have 0% or few NA/SSA/Levant/Arab (according to G25 individual modern and ancient samples).

I am in favor of using Guanches references as an ancient "proxy" because there is no better one, but you have to know how to use it.

Anyway that is an esterile debate, depending on who you talk to, so each one does what he or she sees fit in their models.

Cabaon
07-20-2021, 05:18 PM
You're not telling me anything that I don't already know.

I will repeat what I said:

If we use Iberian samples from the Iron Age without any NA/SSA/Levant/Arab contribution, we should in turn use NA samples from the same era without any Iberian or European input, and we could model better both the Iberians and North Africans.

Isn't there an old or modern NA sample that lacks any South European component? I mean, something similar to Basque individuals but in Berber.

and that's what you still don't understand : there is no such thing as a north african individual with no "european" input since the berber/north african genetic profile is mostly defined by its EEF and Iberomaurusian components. You simply can't found nor can be north african without EEF admixture. Moreover I think we both agree that the people who mixed with iberians throughout their history (at least after the neolithic) already show strong similarities to modern north africans or guanches.

JJJ
07-20-2021, 05:37 PM
Ad contrary, I was ironizing about this question. I’m totally agree with you. Precissely, your point of view is the same that I have defended many years in some circles. By this reason, for me the word “Reconquista” is a political definition, that don’t make sense when we take in consideration that not only berbers were invaders, also goths, romans, cartaghineses, alans, vandals… even celtics people.

The point is, arabs and berbers were fanatics and uncivilisated, but goths were the best civilisation that conquered Hispania? It’s other lie more. Goths people were partially romanisated when arrived to Hispania, but they weren’t refinated at all if we compare them with romans. Of course, “very spanish people” sentence refered to goths was other irony…

Of course, when I said Pompei Magnus was pacific, is totally the opposite… his methods were not diplomatics precissely.

I’m a little sarcastic in certain contexts hahaha

A favor de los góticos es que por lo menos no violaron a nadie... Al contrario que otros.

drobbah
07-20-2021, 05:42 PM
and that's what you still don't understand : there is no such thing as a north african individual with no "european" input since the berber/north african genetic profile is mostly defined by its EEF and Iberomaurusian components. You simply can't found nor can be north african without EEF admixture. Moreover I think we both agree that the people who mixed with iberians throughout their history (at least after the neolithic) already show strong similarities to modern north africans or guanches.
Not all Maghrebis have Steppe admixture and that's an indication of European ancestry but my knowledge on this matter is limited.I think one of the Moroccan users on this forum said something about certain Amazigh populations who carry high IBM and high Barcin Farmer ancestry but apparently don't have Steppe ancestry unlike the Northern Moroccan samples for example.Perhaps those Amazighs are more representative of the proto-Berbers?

Cabaon
07-20-2021, 05:58 PM
Not all Maghrebis have Steppe admixture and that's an indication of European ancestry but my knowledge on this matter is limited.I think one of the Moroccan users on this forum said something about certain Amazigh populations who carry high IBM and high Barcin Farmer ancestry but apparently don't have Steppe ancestry unlike the Northern Moroccan samples for example.Perhaps those Amazighs are more representative of the proto-Berbers?

That's true but I wasn't talking about steppe admixture. Early european farmers (EEF) settled in north africa during the late neolithic and heavily changed the local genepool which can be seen on the KEB sample (who is way more northern shifted than modern north africans). It's of course also confirmed by archeology. These european farmers were overall similar to modern day sardinians and were not directly coming from anatolia which was different for the levant where in that case we talk about ANF not EEF.

Mokordo wants to find north africans without this admixture that they shared with south europeans which is like I said impossible. And yes many modern north africans in comparison to coastal north africans do not show any trace of steppe admixture or very little amount but it doesn't mean much because this admixture is old (going back to the bronze age and linked to european bell beakers) and it can be seen on guanches who have for most of them similar level of steppe ancestry as north moroccans (and R1b clades too) so having steppe admixture won't necessarily make you less amazigh.

Luso
07-20-2021, 06:17 PM
A favor de los góticos es que por lo menos no violaron a nadie... Al contrario que otros.

¿Qué fuente dice que no violaron??? Cada fuerza invasora va a violar, meu amgio. Eso es una ilusión o soñar despierto lol

Ignis90
07-20-2021, 06:25 PM
Not all Maghrebis have Steppe admixture and that's an indication of European ancestry but my knowledge on this matter is limited.I think one of the Moroccan users on this forum said something about certain Amazigh populations who carry high IBM and high Barcin Farmer ancestry but apparently don't have Steppe ancestry unlike the Northern Moroccan samples for example.Perhaps those Amazighs are more representative of the proto-Berbers?

Some Southern Moroccans have very high IBM, high Barcin and low everything else.
I don't think they represent proto-Berbers, especially if we focus on linguistics, these Southern Moroccans have very low ancestry that can be traced to a ancestral population common to all afroasiatics (Natufian-like, Pastoral Neolithic -like).
They might represent a local phenomenon South of the Atlas range and the Western Sahara, some kind of refuge for hunter-gatherers, or a resurgence in hunter-gatherer ancestry.

Anyway, most Berbers have steppes ancestry, a ancestry that looks absent in the North African individuals from Copper Age Southern Europe.

In my opinion, while pre-modern Berbers (pre-Iron Age) North African ancestry is possible in Iberia (and elsewhere?), I think it cannot possibly be purely Taforalt.
Also, some of the European-specific L mtdna subclades that are related to West Africans don't seem to have been carried by Iberomaurusians, so we're talking about more "modern" North Africans, at least in the likes of Copper Age ones.

mokordo
07-20-2021, 06:36 PM
and that's what you still don't understand : there is no such thing as a north african individual with no "european" input since the berber/north african genetic profile is mostly defined by its EEF and Iberomaurusian components. You simply can't found nor can be north african without EEF admixture. Moreover I think we both agree that the people who mixed with iberians throughout their history (at least after the neolithic) already show strong similarities to modern north africans or guanches.

I have not said that there is or that there must be an individual like that, what I was trying to do was illustrate what I meant.

If Iberian IA is 100 "Iberic" and Guanches are 92 "NA" + 8 "Iberic", it would be desirable to have a 100% NA reference.Take that from "NA" and "Iberic" in a non-literal way, please.

What I mean is simply, that we like it more or less, the only unambiguous NA reference, which does not produce overlapping, is MAR_TAFORALT, unfortunately. I say unfortunately because of its high age.

I prefer to think that I explain myself badly and do not convey the idea conveniently. Because everything you say I know in advance, and knowing it cannot prevent us from raising something.

bovefex
07-20-2021, 06:37 PM
Anyway, most Berbers have steppes ancestry,


Possibly unrelated, but almost none of the North Africans on the G25 list seem to have Steppe ancestry. Where did you get this from?

mokordo
07-20-2021, 07:05 PM
That's true but I wasn't talking about steppe admixture. Early european farmers (EEF) settled in north africa during the late neolithic and heavily changed the local genepool which can be seen on the KEB sample (who is way more northern shifted than modern north africans). It's of course also confirmed by archeology. These european farmers were overall similar to modern day sardinians and were not directly coming from anatolia which was different for the levant where in that case we talk about ANF not EEF.

Mokordo wants to find north africans without this admixture that they shared with south europeans which is like I said impossible. And yes many modern north africans in comparison to coastal north africans do not show any trace of steppe admixture or very little amount but it doesn't mean much because this admixture is old (going back to the bronze age and linked to european bell beakers) and it can be seen on guanches who have for most of them similar level of steppe ancestry as north moroccans (and R1b clades too)

Not neccesarily find modern individuals or ancient ones, we can simply make artificial proxies.

And this:
so having steppe admixture won't necessarily make you less amazigh. is true.

And having some MAR_TAFORALT won´t make you less Iberian, in fact, that component is present in many samples from Iberia even before Iron Age.

The only thing that I propose is a theoretical model with "pure" components of the two shores, even knowing that we have common components, something totally logical due to the geographic proximity and the common history, the known and the unknown of older times.

JJJ
07-20-2021, 07:25 PM
¿Qué fuente dice que no violaron??? Cada fuerza invasora va a violar, meu amgio. Eso es una ilusión o soñar despierto lol

Dejaron poca descendencia a pesar de entrar en gran numero dentro de la peninsula.

estesiquesabe
07-20-2021, 07:30 PM
Dejaron poca descendencia a pesar de entrar en gran numero dentro de la peninsula.
Violaban pero con protección.

alejandromb92
07-20-2021, 07:33 PM
Dejaron poca descendencia a pesar de entrar en gran numero dentro de la peninsula.

Yo creo que desde la caida de la Hispana Romana, la inmensa mayoria de las invasiones y migraciones que ha tenido la peninsula han sido elitistas y han dejado una huella autosomica practicamente nula.

mokordo
07-20-2021, 07:34 PM
¿Qué fuente dice que no violaron??? Cada fuerza invasora va a violar, meu amgio. Eso es una ilusión o soñar despierto lol

En realidad los Visigodos no eran invasores, fueron invitados por Roma precisamente para combatir a los Suevos y Alanos, primos suyos que sí que entraron como invasores.

Los Visigodos estaban medianamente "romanizados", habían sido pueblos aliados de Roma fuera de las fronteras del imperio, sus vecinos solían atacarles por esa causa, y pidieron ser realojados dentro de las fronteras del imperio para tener más seguridad. Primero en zonas adyacentes a sus antiguos territorios, pero cuando los "bárbaros aprovechando la debilidad creciente de Roma entraron en la península Ibérica, Roma mató a dos pájaros de un tiro enviándolos a la península Ibérica. Echaban a sus primos de aquí, y a la vez los realojaban lejos del corazón de Roma (por si acaso) y defendían la península de futuras invasiones.

Aben Aboo
07-20-2021, 07:51 PM
But if you want to be honnest, we can to say too that North Africans, Arabs, were invited by the Count Julian of Tangiers the Wisigoth, against the Wisigoth King.
And Wisigoths it's a little similar case but with Romans.
I know that for you iberians people, it's a sensible subject the Islamic period.

Aben Aboo
07-20-2021, 07:57 PM
Possibly unrelated, but almost none of the North Africans on the G25 list seem to have Steppe ancestry. Where did you get this from?

Hello,
Look with the official G25 average North Africans samples, all of them have ancestry steppes.

bovefex
07-20-2021, 08:02 PM
Hello,
Look with the official average North Africans samples, all of them have ancestry steppes.

Yes you are right, no idea how I got that wrong. Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Aben Aboo
07-20-2021, 08:03 PM
Yes you are right, no idea how I got that wrong. Thanks for thanking the time to reply.

You are welcome

Aben Aboo
07-20-2021, 08:14 PM
Most of the iberian iron age samples show profiles similar to modern day basques so they are representative of their era while a north african source without it's "EEF/steppe" component wouldn't be representative of any ancient north african. EEF ancestry was already present in north africa during the late neolithic and steppe ancestry appeared during the bronze age with the settlements of bell beaker iberians/italians in the Maghreb.

That's why when we put a guanche source, iberians tend to score around 8-15% which is in total accordance with what the studies tell us. Like I said many times If a north african has a child with his spanish wife their child won't simply be 15% north african.

As salām, Azul, yes you say true, when i look about my mixed i have from my Maghrebi part not only the North African component but too some SSA, south European (sardes) and Middle Eastern.
And it's interesting concerning my south European, because mainly i have Iberian from my european side (basques french) and I have some sardinian too but it's more from my North African side.

mokordo
07-20-2021, 08:23 PM
But if you want to be honnest, we can to say too that North Africans, Arabs, were invited by the Count Julian of Tangiers the Wisigoth, against the Wisigoth King.
And Wisigoths it's a little similar case but with Romans.
I know that for you iberians people, it's a sensible subject the Islamic period.


Yes, what you said is true,but we were talking about the fall of Rome and when those barbars start arriving here and why. And to be honest the Arabs had not yet conquered and dominated North Africa, the Islam that originated Arab expansionism did not even exist, and the North African coast was inhabited largely by Romanized North Africans, mostly Christians, and in inner and mountanious regions mostly pagans.

Yes, many Iberians are quite sensitive about that period of our History, but it´s not my case and the case of other Spanish or Portuguese members.

Do not look for that type of intention in what I say on this subject, because I do not try to mask, hide or falsify anything.

mokordo
07-20-2021, 08:26 PM
Yo creo que desde la caida de la Hispana Romana, la inmensa mayoria de las invasiones y migraciones que ha tenido la peninsula han sido elitistas y han dejado una huella autosomica practicamente nula.

Bueno, unos dejaron más que otros...ejem;)

Cabaon
07-20-2021, 08:38 PM
I have not said that there is or that there must be an individual like that, what I was trying to do was illustrate what I meant.

If Iberian IA is 100 "Iberic" and Guanches are 92 "NA" + 8 "Iberic", it would be desirable to have a 100% NA reference.Take that from "NA" and "Iberic" in a non-literal way, please.

What I mean is simply, that we like it more or less, the only unambiguous NA reference, which does not produce overlapping, is MAR_TAFORALT, unfortunately. I say unfortunately because of its high age.

I prefer to think that I explain myself badly and do not convey the idea conveniently. Because everything you say I know in advance, and knowing it cannot prevent us from raising something.


It seems you still don't understand.

If we use your reasoning then we can't model any iberian since there is no specific iberian component and again with your reasoning IBM can't be used as a reference since they were roughly a mix of 70% dzudzuana-like and 30% ANA (even though proportions here tend to vary based on different studies).


let's agree to disagree because it's been months you can't really grasp what I'm saying and let's just agree on the fact that historically these north africans had profiles similar to modern north africans/guanches.

mokordo
07-20-2021, 08:56 PM
It seems you still don't understand.

If we use your reasoning then we can't model any iberian since there is no specific iberian component and again with your reasoning IBM can't be used as a reference since they were roughly a mix of 70% dzudzuana-like and 30% ANA (even though proportions here tend to vary based on different studies).


let's agree to disagree because it's been months you can't really grasp what I'm saying and let's just agree on the fact that historically these north africans had profiles similar to modern north africans/guanches.

It seems you find a special pleasure in repeating that sentence. Don´t worry, I understand you.

You cannot use my reasoning because you don´t understand me, you don´t want to understand me, or you cannot understand me.

I'm going to say what I think is true about the Guanches samples that are available on the G25 datasheet: The average of the Guanches samples available right now is very similar to the modern North Moroccans.

mokordo
07-20-2021, 09:38 PM
Specific controversies apart, Aben Aboo, Cabaon etc ..., this model would be the right one to model with ancient references modern-day Iberians (and NAs too), wouldn't it?:


Iberian:Iberia_East_IA,0.1244941,0.1489018,0.05647 39,0.0021802,0.0598572,-0.0031725,-0.0036426,0.0044711,0.0299882,0.0468802,-0.0047092,0.0111088,-0.0233585,-0.0145191,0.0078549,0.0056351,0.0067799,0.0016153, 0.0038024,-0.0010318,0.0055682,-9.26e-05,-0.007364,-0.0123961,-0.0011226
Iberian:Iberia_North_IA,0.125205,0.1431895,0.06505 3,0.0114665,0.058011,0.003347,-0.0034075,0.0045,0.026077,0.034989,-0.002192,0.0088425,-0.0169475,-0.0085325,0.0107215,6.65e-05,-0.008279,0.0008865,-0.000126,-0.00075,0.0082355,0.0023495,-0.0070865,-0.0118085,-0.0061075
Roman:ITA_Rome_Imperial,0.1039821,0.1495156,-0.0235307,-0.0574065,0.0045265,-0.0204055,-0.0011946,-0.0051488,0.0006604,0.0196549,0.0034575,0.0025539,-0.0040602,-0.0014737,-0.0081715,-0.0014474,0.0035992,0.000454,0.0012178,-0.0032854,-0.0025579,0.0020454,-0.0006985,-0.0004845,0.0004141
North_African:Canary_Islands_Guanche,-0.0393828,0.1314096,-0.0023384,-0.0687344,0.0337292,-0.0363672,-0.0299874,0.008261,0.0708878,0.0305428,0.0075674,-0.0059948,0.0182554,-0.0176982,0.0232082,-0.0130468,0.0031814,-0.019206,-0.044321,0.010405,-0.0134762,-0.0377142,0.0232692,-0.0011806,0.0046224
SSA:Hadza,-0.5003664,0.0530108,-0.0032432,-0.0024548,0.0010464,-0.0057452,0.0615258,-0.0505364,0.0706426,-0.0641472,-0.009581,-3e-05,-0.0248562,-0.0036058,0.0133004,-0.0189072,0.0198706,0.031647,0.0015588,-0.0074286,-0.005141,0.005886,-0.0020954,-0.0027474,0.0041672
SSA:Mbuti,-0.647426,0.0591038,0.0254932,0.0374034,-0.001108,0.0066378,0.3663348,-0.293434,0.0177118,0.02985,-0.0089316,0.2198242,0.1264506,0.0010182,0.010342,-0.0014052,0.0009386,-0.0518664,0.014229,0.003727,0.0061144,-0.0018548,-0.0043878,0.0025304,-0.0006944


I add Hadza(East Africa) and Mbuti (West Africa aprox.) as said here:

https://www.pnas.org/content/115/26/6774

J-Live
07-20-2021, 09:56 PM
Possibly unrelated, but almost none of the North Africans on the G25 list seem to have Steppe ancestry. Where did you get this from?

Huh?

Target: Casablanca
Distance: 1.2693% / 0.01269298
32.2 Early_European_Farmer
25.8 Iberomaurusian
16.0 Early_Levantine_Farmer
13.8 Esan_Nigeria
7.0 Steppe_Pastoralist
5.2 Iran_Neolithic

Target: Ouarzazate
Distance: 1.0423% / 0.01042311
31.8 Iberomaurusian
31.4 Early_European_Farmer
24.4 Esan_Nigeria
5.6 Steppe_Pastoralist
4.8 Early_Levantine_Farmer
1.8 Africa_Mesolithic
0.2 Iran_Neolithic

Target: Oujda
Distance: 1.2065% / 0.01206453
43.2 Early_European_Farmer
26.4 Iberomaurusian
8.6 Early_Levantine_Farmer
8.0 Steppe_Pastoralist
6.8 Esan_Nigeria
6.4 Iran_Neolithic
0.6 Africa_Mesolithic

Target: Nador
Distance: 1.2949% / 0.01294857
43.2 Early_European_Farmer
26.8 Iberomaurusian
9.8 Early_Levantine_Farmer
7.8 Steppe_Pastoralist
5.8 Esan_Nigeria
2.6 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
1.8 Iran_Neolithic
1.4 Africa_Mesolithic
0.8 Western_Hunter-Gatherer

Target: Chefchaouen
Distance: 1.2366% / 0.01236645
43.2 Early_European_Farmer
32.6 Iberomaurusian
11.4 Steppe_Pastoralist
5.4 Esan_Nigeria
4.0 Early_Levantine_Farmer
2.8 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
0.6 Iran_Neolithic

Target: Moroccan_Jew
Distance: 1.7072% / 0.01707171
49.0 Early_European_Farmer
17.4 Steppe_Pastoralist
14.0 Iran_Neolithic
11.2 Early_Levantine_Farmer
7.4 Iberomaurusian
1.0 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer

Target: Saharawi
Distance: 1.4747% / 0.01474747
35.2 Iberomaurusian
32.2 Early_European_Farmer
14.2 Early_Levantine_Farmer
11.2 Esan_Nigeria
4.8 Steppe_Pastoralist
1.8 Iran_Neolithic
0.6 Africa_Mesolithic

Target: Mozabite
Distance: 1.2178% / 0.01217820
40.4 Early_European_Farmer
32.2 Iberomaurusian
10.2 Esan_Nigeria
8.6 Steppe_Pastoralist
7.0 Early_Levantine_Farmer
1.6 Iran_Neolithic

Target: Sened
Distance: 1.4865% / 0.01486501
33.0 Early_European_Farmer
23.2 Early_Levantine_Farmer
20.0 Iberomaurusian
8.2 Esan_Nigeria
8.0 Iran_Neolithic
7.0 Steppe_Pastoralist
0.6 Africa_Mesolithic

Target: Chenini
Distance: 1.2350% / 0.01235049
44.4 Early_European_Farmer
34.8 Iberomaurusian
8.4 Steppe_Pastoralist
4.8 Early_Levantine_Farmer
4.0 Esan_Nigeria
3.0 Iran_Neolithic
0.6 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer

Target: Tiznit
Distance: 1.4444% / 0.01444350
41.0 Iberomaurusian
39.0 Early_European_Farmer
10.8 Esan_Nigeria
4.8 Steppe_Pastoralist
3.0 Early_Levantine_Farmer
1.0 Africa_Mesolithic
0.2 Iran_Neolithic
0.2 Western_Hunter-Gatherer

Target: Errachidia
Distance: 1.4780% / 0.01478016
35.2 Early_European_Farmer
33.6 Iberomaurusian
15.2 Esan_Nigeria
7.2 Early_Levantine_Farmer
7.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
1.0 Africa_Mesolithic
0.6 Iran_Neolithic

Target: Timimoun
Distance: 1.6257% / 0.01625673
44.0 Esan_Nigeria
20.0 Early_European_Farmer
17.6 Iberomaurusian
10.0 Early_Levantine_Farmer
3.8 Steppe_Pastoralist
2.8 Iran_Neolithic
1.8 Africa_Mesolithic

Target: Guanche
Distance: 1.2524% / 0.01252421
41.2 Early_European_Farmer
33.0 Iberomaurusian
10.4 Steppe_Pastoralist
8.2 Early_Levantine_Farmer
6.2 Esan_Nigeria
1.0 Western_Hunter-Gatherer

Target: Middle_Atlas
Distance: 1.5929% / 0.01592936
43.0 Early_European_Farmer
38.0 Iberomaurusian
9.0 Steppe_Pastoralist
5.4 Esan_Nigeria
3.4 Early_Levantine_Farmer
1.0 Africa_Mesolithic
0.2 Western_Hunter-Gatherer

Target: Mauritania
Distance: 1.3086% / 0.01308610
44.4 Early_European_Farmer
30.4 Iberomaurusian
13.0 Steppe_Pastoralist
9.8 Esan_Nigeria
1.4 Iran_Neolithic
1.0 Early_Levantine_Farmer

Target: Algerian
Distance: 1.2849% / 0.01284883
36.4 Early_European_Farmer
23.6 Iberomaurusian
13.8 Early_Levantine_Farmer
11.8 Esan_Nigeria
9.6 Steppe_Pastoralist
4.0 Iran_Neolithic
0.8 Africa_Mesolithic

Target: Oran
Distance: 1.6634% / 0.01663426
34.0 Early_European_Farmer
23.2 Iberomaurusian
16.4 Early_Levantine_Farmer
10.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
8.2 Esan_Nigeria
7.4 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
0.6 Western_Hunter-Gatherer

Target: Kabyle
Distance: 0.7968% / 0.00796779
45.6 Early_European_Farmer
28.0 Iberomaurusian
11.4 Steppe_Pastoralist
6.6 Early_Levantine_Farmer
5.0 Esan_Nigeria
2.8 Iran_Neolithic
0.6 Western_Hunter-Gatherer

Target: Zenete
Distance: 1.4619% / 0.01461899
44.0 Early_European_Farmer
32.4 Iberomaurusian
12.0 Steppe_Pastoralist
5.4 Early_Levantine_Farmer
4.6 Esan_Nigeria
1.6 Iran_Neolithic

mokordo
07-20-2021, 10:05 PM
Huh?

c

I´ve never seen those regional references in the official datasheet, where are from? Do you mind share with us them?:)

Results are from the fantastic ULTIMATE ANCIENT COMPONENTS calculator by Celtíbero Itálico? An unfortunately dissapeared forum member.

Aben Aboo
07-20-2021, 10:06 PM
Yes, what you said is true,but we were talking about the fall of Rome and when those barbars start arriving here and why. And to be honest the Arabs had not yet conquered and dominated North Africa, the Islam that originated Arab expansionism did not even exist, and the North African coast was inhabited largely by Romanized North Africans, mostly Christians, and in inner and mountanious regions mostly pagans.

Yes, many Iberians are quite sensitive about that period of our History, but it´s not my case and the case of other Spanish or Portuguese members.

Do not look for that type of intention in what I say on this subject, because I do not try to mask, hide or falsify anything.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be offensive, I should have been more nuanced in my remarks.
I wanted to say that in the official doxa it was presented like this for a long time and that many where for the Visigoths they will try to make the share of things, that it is not the same concerning the Arabo-Berbers, neither more nor less , don't see it as an attack on you or anyone.

Cabaon
07-20-2021, 10:13 PM
Specific controversies apart, Aben Aboo, Cabaon etc ..., this model would be the right one to model with ancient references modern-day Iberians (and NAs too), wouldn't it?:


Iberian:Iberia_East_IA,0.1244941,0.1489018,0.05647 39,0.0021802,0.0598572,-0.0031725,-0.0036426,0.0044711,0.0299882,0.0468802,-0.0047092,0.0111088,-0.0233585,-0.0145191,0.0078549,0.0056351,0.0067799,0.0016153, 0.0038024,-0.0010318,0.0055682,-9.26e-05,-0.007364,-0.0123961,-0.0011226
Iberian:Iberia_North_IA,0.125205,0.1431895,0.06505 3,0.0114665,0.058011,0.003347,-0.0034075,0.0045,0.026077,0.034989,-0.002192,0.0088425,-0.0169475,-0.0085325,0.0107215,6.65e-05,-0.008279,0.0008865,-0.000126,-0.00075,0.0082355,0.0023495,-0.0070865,-0.0118085,-0.0061075
Roman:ITA_Rome_Imperial,0.1039821,0.1495156,-0.0235307,-0.0574065,0.0045265,-0.0204055,-0.0011946,-0.0051488,0.0006604,0.0196549,0.0034575,0.0025539,-0.0040602,-0.0014737,-0.0081715,-0.0014474,0.0035992,0.000454,0.0012178,-0.0032854,-0.0025579,0.0020454,-0.0006985,-0.0004845,0.0004141
North_African:Canary_Islands_Guanche,-0.0393828,0.1314096,-0.0023384,-0.0687344,0.0337292,-0.0363672,-0.0299874,0.008261,0.0708878,0.0305428,0.0075674,-0.0059948,0.0182554,-0.0176982,0.0232082,-0.0130468,0.0031814,-0.019206,-0.044321,0.010405,-0.0134762,-0.0377142,0.0232692,-0.0011806,0.0046224
SSA:Hadza,-0.5003664,0.0530108,-0.0032432,-0.0024548,0.0010464,-0.0057452,0.0615258,-0.0505364,0.0706426,-0.0641472,-0.009581,-3e-05,-0.0248562,-0.0036058,0.0133004,-0.0189072,0.0198706,0.031647,0.0015588,-0.0074286,-0.005141,0.005886,-0.0020954,-0.0027474,0.0041672
SSA:Mbuti,-0.647426,0.0591038,0.0254932,0.0374034,-0.001108,0.0066378,0.3663348,-0.293434,0.0177118,0.02985,-0.0089316,0.2198242,0.1264506,0.0010182,0.010342,-0.0014052,0.0009386,-0.0518664,0.014229,0.003727,0.0061144,-0.0018548,-0.0043878,0.0025304,-0.0006944


I add Hadza(East Africa) and Mbuti (West Africa aprox.) as said here:

https://www.pnas.org/content/115/26/6774


I don't think ssa samples are necessary and imperial romans were too eastern shifted, migrations of romans might have started earlier (so use the IA samples)

J-Live
07-20-2021, 10:13 PM
I´ve never seen those regional references in the official datasheet, where are from? Do you mind share with us them?:)

Results are from the fantastic ULTIMATE ANCIENT COMPONENTS calculator by Celtíbero Itálico? An unfortunately dissapeared forum member.

Hello, sure. I found them randomly on this forum when I was lurking - a maghrebi member had collected and averaged them. Maybe someone else knows who originally compiled them because I've forgot where I found them ;)

Yeah it is a fantastic calculator I sometimes have to add some references but on the whole its very decent - shame about the creator disappearing haha.

Here they are:


Zenete,-0.024586,0.140143,-0.003092,-0.069897,0.029421,-0.034527,-0.026838,0.006,0.062952,0.028757,0.001949,-0.006804,0.020099,-0.017341,0.017426,-0.012755,0.000026,-0.021132,-0.042285,0.007704,-0.016271,-0.038407,0.026252,-0.003085,0.006849
Kabyle,-0.015252,0.136893,-0.003017,-0.068088,0.026959,-0.033077,-0.023078,0.004292,0.059639,0.032292,0.006625,-0.004736,0.017245,-0.015028,0.012568,-0.009414,0.005867,-0.019358,-0.036402,0.006178,-0.013077,-0.031631,0.020089,-0.003687,0.004934
Oran,-0.030732,0.13405,-0.006034,-0.070414,0.01508,-0.030399,-0.021621,0.006692,0.050313,0.023144,0.006008,-0.01094,0.018285,-0.015276,0.016965,-0.01432,0.00691,-0.01951,-0.036075,0.014632,-0.001996,-0.023247,0.012078,0.001084,0.006227
Algerian,-0.065799,0.133152,-0.007615,-0.068526,0.020903,-0.030142,-0.022434,0.007757,0.053184,0.025064,0.005646,-0.006548,0.02155,-0.013514,0.013029,-0.009628,-0.003586,-0.01627,-0.031512,0.007393,-0.00932,-0.027831,0.017956,-0.000139,0.001506
Mauritania,-0.053497,0.136081,0.003017,-0.06137,0.02462,-0.03012,-0.029376,0.011076,0.052563,0.029522,0.005521,-0.004496,0.015312,-0.015827,0.009229,-0.016176,-0.004303,-0.021157,-0.037458,0.003752,-0.018218,-0.036601,0.026498,-0.000361,0.000599
Middle_Atlas,-0.051448,0.139534,0.000603,-0.074419,0.03176,-0.034192,-0.030269,0.007661,0.074365,0.030798,0.006366,-0.008392,0.020634,-0.020919,0.021661,-0.021798,-0.002529,-0.022906,-0.050103,0.01108,-0.018967,-0.047334,0.027928,-0.002771,0.003808
Guanche,-0.039383,0.13141,-0.002338,-0.068734,0.033729,-0.036367,-0.029987,0.008261,0.070888,0.030543,0.007567,-0.005995,0.018255,-0.017698,0.023208,-0.013047,0.003181,-0.019206,-0.044321,0.010405,-0.013476,-0.037714,0.023269,-0.001181,0.004622
Timimoun,-0.293664,0.105158,0.001999,-0.040068,0.014449,-0.012341,-0.036674,0.021057,0.026936,0.021531,0.005757,-0.004526,0.021318,-0.007432,0.011428,-0.00883,0.003123,-0.011079,-0.023053,0.00499,-0.007362,-0.019636,0.012177,-0.000362,0.002652
Errachidia,-0.113444,0.128747,-0.002493,-0.067166,0.024586,-0.03091,-0.03123,0.011564,0.064686,0.029684,0.008489,-0.005603,0.021027,-0.016476,0.0206,-0.014047,-0.004223,-0.020714,-0.044581,0.008706,-0.015805,-0.041046,0.024335,-0.002142,0.005761
Tiznit,-0.102522,0.131656,-0.002317,-0.075951,0.031061,-0.035658,-0.033506,0.012016,0.076652,0.031566,0.008815,-0.00926,0.024731,-0.020417,0.020348,-0.015721,0.000112,-0.028831,-0.053422,0.011917,-0.020821,-0.051113,0.030741,-0.00519,0.007467
Chenini,-0.02795,0.139071,-0.008087,-0.076479,0.027732,-0.035202,-0.031387,0.005282,0.068425,0.029796,0.004006,-0.004388,0.019631,-0.016125,0.014092,-0.016905,0.000152,-0.02329,-0.046725,0.007858,-0.016831,-0.040428,0.028135,-0.004452,0.006367
Sened,-0.039102,0.134767,-0.018967,-0.0779,0.018809,-0.035567,-0.021662,0.005864,0.057688,0.020561,0.005645,-0.012236,0.026322,-0.009407,0.012478,-0.005007,-0.005691,-0.013168,-0.030337,0.01152,-0.008514,-0.024185,0.015,-0.00005,0.000549
Mozabite,-0.064978,0.135551,-0.003279,-0.071762,0.026025,-0.032836,-0.026066,0.010826,0.061731,0.030346,0.00651,-0.006366,0.021795,-0.016568,0.016316,-0.016176,-0.00271,-0.021928,-0.043557,0.008276,-0.014626,-0.036795,0.024682,-0.004228,0.005659
Saharawi,-0.095422,0.131342,-0.009664,-0.080683,0.024171,-0.035396,-0.032882,0.00899,0.077336,0.028884,0.010731,-0.009367,0.030562,-0.015569,0.023434,-0.014773,-0.003803,-0.024884,-0.048598,0.012444,-0.015078,-0.041553,0.027869,-0.002842,0.007589
Moroccan_Jew,0.078254,0.142936,-0.017442,-0.061612,0.010848,-0.019104,-0.010576,-0.001731,0.01626,0.023691,0.007917,-0.002847,0.006244,-0.005195,0.005022,0.003282,-0.001663,-0.004402,-0.01279,-0.00544,-0.001653,-0.008532,0.00949,-0.001566,0.001078
Chefchaouen,-0.027175,0.135954,0.003347,-0.062501,0.031967,-0.031027,-0.027584,0.008423,0.066803,0.036789,0.005602,-0.005358,0.020645,-0.018269,0.018814,-0.011883,0,-0.021363,-0.045833,0.008848,-0.013539,-0.03555,0.024218,-0.006447,0.005823
Nador,-0.031301,0.139974,-0.0044,-0.072621,0.026313,-0.031608,-0.020368,0.001846,0.056346,0.029188,0.00636,-0.006295,0.015907,-0.010849,0.013368,-0.009303,0.000609,-0.017462,-0.036536,0.011672,-0.013185,-0.033077,0.020336,-0.00737,0.003533
Oujda,-0.033578,0.136081,-0.013765,-0.069364,0.02285,-0.034164,-0.024324,0.003115,0.056295,0.029933,0.005846,-0.009329,0.018508,-0.013384,0.010451,-0.009812,0.004759,-0.012004,-0.036892,0.006628,-0.008017,-0.035118,0.017532,-0.001145,0.002844
Ouarzazate,-0.18354,0.119494,0.00088,-0.058221,0.025005,-0.027308,-0.03251,0.014749,0.053296,0.028444,0.006834,-0.007656,0.024046,-0.017226,0.016796,-0.015867,0.000815,-0.019088,-0.041334,0.009359,-0.015254,-0.038271,0.024537,-0.003856,0.00495
Casablanca,-0.085367,0.130213,-0.012822,-0.070881,0.021132,-0.03294,-0.027783,0.009769,0.055403,0.024399,0.009509,-0.009025,0.02699,-0.014466,0.016302,-0.006187,-0.002767,-0.017033,-0.038422,0.009435,-0.009844,-0.029512,0.020911,-0.001125,0.005921

mokordo
07-20-2021, 10:40 PM
I don't think ssa samples are necessary and imperial romans were too eastern shifted, migrations of romans might have started earlier (so use the IA samples)

Thank you very much for your suggestions, but this model is fine for me.

We would need a few samples from the NW of the Iberian Peninsula and it would be enough.:amen:

Aben Aboo
07-20-2021, 11:16 PM
Yes i agree with Cabaon for Romans

mokordo
07-20-2021, 11:34 PM
Yes i agree with Cabaon for Romans

And which one would be suitable to show the Roman ancestry in the Iberian peninsula?

mokordo
07-20-2021, 11:37 PM
This one with modern references (without Canary islands and Moroccan Jews) and NAs recently contributed by J-live:


North_African:Zenete,-0.024586,0.140143,-0.003092,-0.069897,0.029421,-0.034527,-0.026838,0.006,0.062952,0.028757,0.001949,-0.006804,0.020099,-0.017341,0.017426,-0.012755,0.000026,-0.021132,-0.042285,0.007704,-0.016271,-0.038407,0.026252,-0.003085,0.006849
North_African:Kabyle,-0.015252,0.136893,-0.003017,-0.068088,0.026959,-0.033077,-0.023078,0.004292,0.059639,0.032292,0.006625,-0.004736,0.017245,-0.015028,0.012568,-0.009414,0.005867,-0.019358,-0.036402,0.006178,-0.013077,-0.031631,0.020089,-0.003687,0.004934
North_African:Oran,-0.030732,0.13405,-0.006034,-0.070414,0.01508,-0.030399,-0.021621,0.006692,0.050313,0.023144,0.006008,-0.01094,0.018285,-0.015276,0.016965,-0.01432,0.00691,-0.01951,-0.036075,0.014632,-0.001996,-0.023247,0.012078,0.001084,0.006227
North_African:Algerian,-0.065799,0.133152,-0.007615,-0.068526,0.020903,-0.030142,-0.022434,0.007757,0.053184,0.025064,0.005646,-0.006548,0.02155,-0.013514,0.013029,-0.009628,-0.003586,-0.01627,-0.031512,0.007393,-0.00932,-0.027831,0.017956,-0.000139,0.001506
North_African:Mauritania,-0.053497,0.136081,0.003017,-0.06137,0.02462,-0.03012,-0.029376,0.011076,0.052563,0.029522,0.005521,-0.004496,0.015312,-0.015827,0.009229,-0.016176,-0.004303,-0.021157,-0.037458,0.003752,-0.018218,-0.036601,0.026498,-0.000361,0.000599
North_African:Middle_Atlas,-0.051448,0.139534,0.000603,-0.074419,0.03176,-0.034192,-0.030269,0.007661,0.074365,0.030798,0.006366,-0.008392,0.020634,-0.020919,0.021661,-0.021798,-0.002529,-0.022906,-0.050103,0.01108,-0.018967,-0.047334,0.027928,-0.002771,0.003808
North_African:Timimoun,-0.293664,0.105158,0.001999,-0.040068,0.014449,-0.012341,-0.036674,0.021057,0.026936,0.021531,0.005757,-0.004526,0.021318,-0.007432,0.011428,-0.00883,0.003123,-0.011079,-0.023053,0.00499,-0.007362,-0.019636,0.012177,-0.000362,0.002652
North_African:Errachidia,-0.113444,0.128747,-0.002493,-0.067166,0.024586,-0.03091,-0.03123,0.011564,0.064686,0.029684,0.008489,-0.005603,0.021027,-0.016476,0.0206,-0.014047,-0.004223,-0.020714,-0.044581,0.008706,-0.015805,-0.041046,0.024335,-0.002142,0.005761
North_African:Tiznit,-0.102522,0.131656,-0.002317,-0.075951,0.031061,-0.035658,-0.033506,0.012016,0.076652,0.031566,0.008815,-0.00926,0.024731,-0.020417,0.020348,-0.015721,0.000112,-0.028831,-0.053422,0.011917,-0.020821,-0.051113,0.030741,-0.00519,0.007467
North_African:Chenini,-0.02795,0.139071,-0.008087,-0.076479,0.027732,-0.035202,-0.031387,0.005282,0.068425,0.029796,0.004006,-0.004388,0.019631,-0.016125,0.014092,-0.016905,0.000152,-0.02329,-0.046725,0.007858,-0.016831,-0.040428,0.028135,-0.004452,0.006367
North_African:Sened,-0.039102,0.134767,-0.018967,-0.0779,0.018809,-0.035567,-0.021662,0.005864,0.057688,0.020561,0.005645,-0.012236,0.026322,-0.009407,0.012478,-0.005007,-0.005691,-0.013168,-0.030337,0.01152,-0.008514,-0.024185,0.015,-0.00005,0.000549
North_African:Mozabite,-0.064978,0.135551,-0.003279,-0.071762,0.026025,-0.032836,-0.026066,0.010826,0.061731,0.030346,0.00651,-0.006366,0.021795,-0.016568,0.016316,-0.016176,-0.00271,-0.021928,-0.043557,0.008276,-0.014626,-0.036795,0.024682,-0.004228,0.005659
North_African:Saharawi,-0.095422,0.131342,-0.009664,-0.080683,0.024171,-0.035396,-0.032882,0.00899,0.077336,0.028884,0.010731,-0.009367,0.030562,-0.015569,0.023434,-0.014773,-0.003803,-0.024884,-0.048598,0.012444,-0.015078,-0.041553,0.027869,-0.002842,0.007589
North_African:Chefchaouen,-0.027175,0.135954,0.003347,-0.062501,0.031967,-0.031027,-0.027584,0.008423,0.066803,0.036789,0.005602,-0.005358,0.020645,-0.018269,0.018814,-0.011883,0,-0.021363,-0.045833,0.008848,-0.013539,-0.03555,0.024218,-0.006447,0.005823
North_African:Nador,-0.031301,0.139974,-0.0044,-0.072621,0.026313,-0.031608,-0.020368,0.001846,0.056346,0.029188,0.00636,-0.006295,0.015907,-0.010849,0.013368,-0.009303,0.000609,-0.017462,-0.036536,0.011672,-0.013185,-0.033077,0.020336,-0.00737,0.003533
North_African:Oujda,-0.033578,0.136081,-0.013765,-0.069364,0.02285,-0.034164,-0.024324,0.003115,0.056295,0.029933,0.005846,-0.009329,0.018508,-0.013384,0.010451,-0.009812,0.004759,-0.012004,-0.036892,0.006628,-0.008017,-0.035118,0.017532,-0.001145,0.002844
North_African:Ouarzazate,-0.18354,0.119494,0.00088,-0.058221,0.025005,-0.027308,-0.03251,0.014749,0.053296,0.028444,0.006834,-0.007656,0.024046,-0.017226,0.016796,-0.015867,0.000815,-0.019088,-0.041334,0.009359,-0.015254,-0.038271,0.024537,-0.003856,0.00495
North_African:Casablanca,-0.085367,0.130213,-0.012822,-0.070881,0.021132,-0.03294,-0.027783,0.009769,0.055403,0.024399,0.009509,-0.009025,0.02699,-0.014466,0.016302,-0.006187,-0.002767,-0.017033,-0.038422,0.009435,-0.009844,-0.029512,0.020911,-0.001125,0.005921
Basques:Basque_French_Labourd,0.1317244,0.1515907, 0.0590707,0.0119804,0.0576889,0.0008114,-0.002927,0.0038809,0.0336348,0.0419807,-0.0052258,0.0109811,-0.022583,-0.0170903,0.0165701,0.0012776,-0.0082142,0.0007485,-0.0003657,-0.0076286,0.0084055,-0.0010342,-0.0088738,-0.0080625,0.0034401
Basques:Basque_French_Lower_Navarre,0.1296547,0.14 82672,0.0555396,0.0110407,0.0550309,0.0014452,-0.0011536,0.0010908,0.0303997,0.0442501,-0.005034,0.0117168,-0.0227585,-0.0160266,0.0172241,-9.65e-05,-0.0076688,0.0026374,-0.002434,-0.0018646,0.0064885,0.0024506,-0.0078541,-0.0095961,0.002863
Basques:Basque_French_Soule,0.1317243,0.1548219,0. 0546482,0.0068124,0.0585285,0.0009128,-0.0019014,0.0012166,0.0309945,0.0432396,-0.0059936,0.0119895,-0.0227449,-0.0167275,0.0124615,-0.0010968,-0.0097314,0.0009675,-4e-04,-0.0032402,0.0092336,0.0020908,-0.0076526,-0.0095193,0.0025909
Basques:Basque_Spanish_Alava,0.1275854,0.1485442,0 .0590365,0.0157976,0.0537723,0.0043864,-0.0024142,0.0040906,0.0254166,0.0380211,-0.0069532,0.0096325,-0.0220693,-0.0149507,0.0158915,-0.0007835,-0.007337,6.91e-05,0.0003998,-0.004036,0.0089726,0.0019447,-0.0048067,-0.006244,-0.0004463
Basques:Basque_Spanish_Biscay,0.1301722,0.1502985, 0.0571167,0.0107177,0.0564578,0.0059581,-0.0008973,0.0009441,0.0267555,0.0419806,-0.0075289,0.0147005,-0.0246371,-0.017428,0.0157435,0.0008197,-0.0047056,0.0027871,0.0003085,-0.0022169,0.0100503,0.001675,-0.0068122,-0.0088072,-0.0002177
Basques:Basque_Spanish_Gipuzkoa_Central,0.1309999, 0.1484519,0.0538941,0.0111875,0.055199,0.0012676,-0.003995,0.0005454,0.0297675,0.0415664,-0.0054623,0.0126024,-0.0206367,-0.0177406,0.0159533,0.0058461,-0.0030225,0.0014051,-0.0006855,-0.0051503,0.005615,-0.001259,-0.0104089,-0.0103627,0.0014043
Basques:Basque_Spanish_Gipuzkoa_Southwest,0.131207 ,0.1493751,0.0579394,0.012274,0.05657,0.0019015,-0.0023714,0.0006712,0.0268855,0.0422788,-0.0058606,0.0100411,-0.0223531,-0.0195175,0.0152994,0.0049662,-0.0026907,0.0025337,-0.0018054,-0.001171,0.0102433,0.0023606,-0.010465,-0.0099685,0.0019158
Basques:Basque_Spanish_Navarra_Central-West,0.1272748,0.1485443,0.0532426,0.0056085,0.051 6178,0.0005325,-0.0035252,-0.0014895,0.0278152,0.0418315,-0.0034398,0.0098775,-0.0210964,-0.0188043,0.0148182,0.0009764,-0.0041725,0.0023035,-0.004948,-0.0005002,0.0070785,0.0003934,-0.0062744,-0.0079746,2.17e-05
Basques:Basque_Spanish_Navarra_Northwest,0.1295514 ,0.1497444,0.0564655,0.0105415,0.0575771,0.0006085 ,-0.0006195,0.0020768,0.0302136,0.0448301,-0.0060674,0.0120848,-0.0243263,-0.0192421,0.0141517,0.0025795,-0.0034966,0.0037662,-0.002057,-0.00274,0.0100505,0.002192,-0.0093445,-0.0109215,0.0025474
Basques:Basque_Spanish_Navarra_Roncal,0.1311035,0. 1488211,0.0549566,0.0122153,0.0545555,0.0015973,-0.00141,0.0009441,0.0336347,0.0403903,-0.006835,0.0101227,-0.0204747,-0.0169525,0.0158052,0.0007955,-0.003864,0.0037202,0.0002169,-0.0012505,0.0084623,0.0013375,-0.0054899,-0.0087085,0.0014369
South_French:French_Hautes-Pyrenees_Bigorre,0.1280511,0.1473535,0.052269,0.00 53295,0.0522249,-0.0008365,-0.0016685,0.0001617,0.0248088,0.0382695,-0.0030854,0.007883,-0.0214815,-0.0141476,0.0087403,0.0001856,-0.0035596,0.0023691,-0.0008926,-0.0029139,0.0025082,-0.0008902,-0.0032908,-0.0059043,0.0010298
South_French:French_Landes_Chalosse,0.1287339,0.14 77596,0.0518917,0.0111758,0.0513326,0.0027611,0.00 047,0.0017769,0.0252587,0.0396544,-0.0026958,0.008947,-0.0203367,-0.0150834,0.0110884,0.0028241,-0.0054241,0.0016723,-0.0007794,-0.0022384,0.0082731,0.002844,-0.0076906,-0.0076635,-0.0020956
South_French:French_Pyrenees-Atlantiques_Bearn,0.1267991,0.1448145,0.0535889,0. 0060078,0.0539486,0.0021754,-0.001692,-0.0020537,0.024461,0.0398913,-0.0088665,0.0102359,-0.0189989,-0.0143265,0.0141693,0.001578,-0.0057238,-0.0008996,-0.0017346,-0.0033017,0.0054653,0.0031407,-0.0066429,-0.0081696,0.0006825
Spain:Spanish_Aragon_North,0.1273681,0.1477595,0.0 490634,0.0057171,0.0498553,0.0010876,-0.000141,-0.0005538,0.0255859,0.0364654,-0.004417,0.0096965,-0.0186272,-0.0150697,0.0143594,0.004296,-0.003038,0.0026858,-0.0031172,-0.0011756,0.004517,0.0005194,-0.0056325,-0.0052896,0.0009341
Spain:Spanish_Biscay_West,0.1203111,0.1493845,0.04 96292,0.0097546,0.049086,0.0011714,-0.001927,0.0035996,0.0265268,0.0348616,-0.0055049,0.0108953,-0.0192517,-0.0162946,0.010464,0.0013788,-0.0057631,0.001837,-0.002313,-0.0017634,0.0071,-0.0004698,-0.0056324,-0.004133,0.0019878
Spain:Spanish_Cantabria,0.1151889,0.145627,0.04344 43,-0.0006783,0.0469933,-0.0032352,-0.000282,0.0023538,0.0254837,0.0319278,-0.0050178,0.0083326,-0.0150593,-0.0134595,0.0104641,0.0009016,-0.001747,-0.0021917,-0.0029664,-0.0026262,0.0035062,-0.0024732,-0.0041165,-0.0047958,-0.000982
Spain:Spanish_Castilla_y_Leon_Burgos_North,0.12361 17,0.1476578,0.0497421,0.0020672,0.0495476,-0.0034583,-0.000611,0.000877,0.0240111,0.0378322,-0.0068692,0.0086174,-0.0189989,-0.0126612,0.0114276,0.0019225,-0.0059585,-0.0001141,-0.0034943,-0.0038143,0.0077986,0.0006554,-0.0041904,-0.0021207,-0.0007785
Spain:Spanish_La_Rioja,0.121563,0.149689,0.0449904 ,0.0016796,0.0474856,-0.0027888,-0.002256,0.001823,0.0247064,0.0370667,-0.001234,0.0084523,-0.0194001,-0.0137622,0.0100977,0.000623,-0.0019949,0.0008615,-0.0038338,-0.0004753,0.0052783,-0.0009521,-0.0063472,-0.0061093,0.0006346
Basques:Basque_French,0.128051,0.1520246,0.0551727 ,0.0128231,0.0564104,0.0025099,-0.00141,0.0033229,0.0305968,0.0412036,-0.0092724,0.0103408,-0.0209761,-0.0140237,0.0132192,-0.0019359,-0.0119173,0.0030278,-0.0007165,-0.0044144,0.010157,0.0024855,-0.0086397,-0.0091698,7.18e-05
Basques:Basque_Spanish,0.1319083,0.1504111,0.05828 62,0.0090081,0.0575834,0.0001239,-0.0033162,0.0004102,0.0313603,0.0455997,-0.0045288,0.0116063,-0.0227781,-0.0187627,0.0179452,0.0037271,-0.0058094,0.0027731,-0.0018156,-6.96e-05,0.0087901,0.0024868,-0.0068883,-0.0090371,0.0022619
Spain:Spanish_Alacant,0.1134437,0.1465747,0.037209 2,0.0002692,0.0413408,-0.002789,-0.0051308,0.001769,0.023486,0.0313143,-0.0050883,0.0085173,-0.0154857,-0.0118125,0.0104505,0.0032708,-0.0015428,0.0001057,-0.0040433,-0.0055652,0.0040345,-0.0004122,-0.0041903,-0.001707,0.0031333
Spain:Spanish_Andalucia,0.1081318,0.1460759,0.0357 074,-0.003434,0.0452553,-0.0058567,-0.0019295,0.0026598,0.0247151,0.0311624,-0.0021538,0.0072724,-0.0132072,-0.0114083,0.0102433,-0.0024984,-0.0061762,-0.0011002,-0.0042604,-0.0021325,0.0029291,-0.0013016,-0.0019719,-0.0053334,0.0018844
Spain:Spanish_Aragon,0.1195142,0.14649,0.041389,-0.000323,0.0468548,-0.0001395,-0.0005287,0.002942,0.0249008,0.036903,-0.0021518,0.0103035,-0.0176535,-0.0128335,0.0127578,-0.0027845,-0.0047592,-0.0007918,-0.0022312,0.0010005,0.0034625,9.28e-05,-0.0011708,-0.0010545,-0.0002395
Spain:Spanish_Asturias,0.110408,0.144205,0.045632, 0.000646,0.051702,-0.007251,-0.007285,0.006923,0.025975,0.031345,-0.003248,0.008093,-0.019029,-0.009083,0.014386,-0.013392,-0.015907,0.001267,-0.005405,-0.000875,0.006863,-0.006059,-0.001602,0.001325,0.006466
Spain:Spanish_Baleares,0.1160993,0.1469133,0.04060 3,-0.0027993,0.0407257,-0.0022313,-0.0005483,0.0024613,0.0192253,0.0292793,-0.004547,0.007943,-0.015015,-0.0126153,0.003936,0.0022537,0.0019993,0.0010557,0 .0011313,-0.004377,0.000541,0.000618,0.0012327,0.0003217,-0.004111
Spain:Spanish_Cantabria,0.119514,0.14759,0.0443743 ,0.0059217,0.046778,-0.0059497,-0.0005483,0.001923,0.0235883,0.0347463,-0.0056293,0.0086423,-0.018632,-0.0168817,0.009093,0.001635,-0.0035203,0.0012667,-0.0054047,-0.004794,0.002787,0.000742,-0.0059567,-0.0017673,0.0006783
Spain:Spanish_Castello,0.1203273,0.1462361,0.04347 66,0.0011536,0.045283,-0.0015539,-0.001175,0.0011867,0.0240169,0.0348331,-0.0056141,0.0068511,-0.0159703,-0.0151189,0.0078719,0.0046974,0.0027569,0.0013937,-0.0008799,-0.0002679,0.0057756,0.0004063,-0.0064089,-0.002169,0.0005646
Spain:Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha,0.1155305,0.14801 35,0.040352,-0.00323,0.0420845,-0.004811,-0.0017038,0.0017308,0.024645,0.0339415,-0.0021108,0.008692,-0.015275,-0.012386,0.010281,-0.0010605,-0.0060302,-0.00019,-0.0001257,-0.000688,0.005459,0.0014837,-0.0010477,-0.003886,-0.0010778
Spain:Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon,0.1077523,0.1438667, 0.0404773,-0.0021533,0.0438027,0.0018593,-0.0017233,0.004615,0.0284287,0.0292183,-0.0023277,0.007843,-0.012091,-0.012019,0.01226,-0.006541,-0.0067797,-0.0017313,-0.004525,-0.0022927,0.000291,-0.0009067,0.0013147,-0.0025703,-0.002754
Spain:Spanish_Cataluna,0.114582,0.1462363,0.045883 3,0.0023687,0.0471883,0,-0.0020367,0.0023843,0.0223613,0.0304943,-0.0018947,0.0085923,-0.016006,-0.0106427,0.0088673,0.001591,-0.000652,-0.001647,-0.001131,-0.0009587,0.0061973,-0.005729,-0.0039027,-0.001928,0.0009577
Spain:Spanish_Eivissa,0.1161872,0.1467051,0.037654 1,-0.0040251,0.0397233,-0.0034111,0.0002712,0.0031417,0.0206569,0.0299145,-0.0025234,0.0074242,-0.0122246,-0.0085537,0.0088218,0.0009688,-0.0036809,-0.0029237,-0.0023785,-0.0039826,0.0032538,0.0018168,-0.0017445,-0.0001853,-0.0014738
Spain:Spanish_Extremadura,0.1050967,0.1499597,0.03 3061,-0.0011843,0.0409303,-0.0027887,-0.003995,-0.0010003,0.024679,0.031223,-0.0012993,0.0050453,-0.0106047,-0.012248,0.007555,0.0026077,-0.002347,-0.003294,-0.0064107,0.000417,0.0021213,-0.00474,-0.0014787,-0.0027713,0.0014373
Spain:Spanish_Galicia,0.1087643,0.1464619,0.041064 2,-0.0016509,0.0412043,-9.29e-05,-0.0054572,0.0024231,0.0247133,0.0300285,-0.0021291,0.0057365,-0.0126113,-0.0121567,0.0111441,0.0005893,-0.0042375,-0.0021607,-0.0050418,-0.0010076,0.0008734,-0.002899,-0.0008079,-0.0036818,0.0013038
Spain:Spanish_Girona,0.1213354,0.1459315,0.0418982 ,0.0032946,0.0411769,0.0016175,-0.0004464,0.003369,0.019982,0.0308893,-0.0020622,0.0088722,-0.0134539,-0.013487,0.0075732,0.0030497,0.0020472,-0.0006207,0.0016719,-0.0027263,0.0028325,-0.0010017,-0.0003451,0.0001325,-0.0016524
Spain::Spanish_La_Rioja,0.121791,0.152329,0.046763 ,-0.008398,0.053856,-0.010598,-0.00188,0.002308,0.027611,0.038816,-0.005359,0.005695,-0.016947,-0.014863,0.00665,0.013657,0.010561,-0.002407,-0.000628,5e-04,0.012977,0.002349,-0.002218,-0.009399,0.000838
Spain:Spanish_Lleida,0.1221701,0.1468006,0.0429918 ,0.0020457,0.0442476,-0.0015186,0.0006528,0.0021024,0.0225886,0.0298058,-0.0009203,0.0089422,-0.0164021,-0.0136553,0.0083998,0.0002358,-0.0014197,0.0006476,0.001257,-0.0009032,0.0073899,0.0003297,-0.001698,-0.0007898,-0.0006387
Spain:Spanish_Mallorca,0.1176172,0.1479288,0.03892 73,0.0010767,0.039392,-0.0013632,0.0003917,0.0030768,0.0174073,0.0279429,-0.0030313,0.0062778,-0.0155598,-0.0084102,0.0064392,0.0025192,0.0013618,0.001464,-0.0008798,-0.0013479,0.0009703,0.0007558,-0.0017529,0.0002009,-0.0002394
Spain:Spanish_Menorca,0.11572,0.1475903,0.036832,-0.0060293,0.042777,-0.0016733,0.00141,0.0001537,0.0216793,0.02934,-0.002219,0.0092913,-0.01442,-0.007248,0.003212,-0.0028727,-0.0028247,0.0013937,-0.00088,-0.0017923,0.0032857,0.0019373,0.0010683,-0.006627,-0.0058677
Spain:Spanish_Murcia,0.10927,0.142936,0.0379005,-0.005814,0.0454698,-0.0020918,-0.0049938,-0.003346,0.0252588,0.03221,-0.00341,0.0034095,-0.012376,-0.0108035,0.004716,-0.0014255,0.0010105,0.0008555,-6.28e-05,0.0010005,0.0050222,-0.0029368,-0.000678,-0.0030122,0.0019758
Spain:Spanish_Navarra,0.1195143,0.1462363,0.044249 ,-0.0007537,0.048727,-0.0012083,-0.0032117,-0.0014613,0.024952,0.038695,-0.0049797,0.0114897,-0.0152627,-0.0170197,0.0156533,0.0028287,-0.0087357,0.0010977,-0.002472,-0.0025427,0.0046583,0.0025553,-0.0069427,4.03e-05,0.0047503
Basques:Spanish_Pais_Vasco,0.128241,0.1516523,0.05 63163,0.008075,0.052112,0.0024173,0.000235,0.00292 3,0.0277467,0.039849,-0.0059003,0.0093417,-0.02106,-0.012065,0.0184127,-0.002475,-0.0123433,0.0028713,0.0022207,-0.0065867,0.0077363,-0.002432,-0.006532,-0.006748,0.003672
Spain:Spanish_Soria,0.121791,0.1421745,0.0499685,0 .0075905,0.0475475,0.001255,-0.0029375,-0.001269,0.0206565,0.0374495,-0.010474,0.01139,-0.017393,-0.0228455,0.0114005,0.0145185,0.01356,-0.002914,-0.0040855,-0.0006875,-0.000312,-0.001422,-0.003759,-0.0059045,-0.0020955
Spain:Spanish_Valencia,0.1179965,0.1446283,0.04085 48,-0.0008882,0.0464702,-0.0014408,-0.0019975,0.0016346,0.0231624,0.0332581,-0.0030042,0.0083301,-0.0128593,-0.0123401,0.0096022,-0.0008507,-0.0046938,-0.0017209,-0.001236,-0.0009171,0.0055735,-0.0013706,-0.0020438,-0.0051411,0.0020557
Portugal,0.1061741,0.1446114,0.0360075,-0.0044316,0.042137,-0.0040494,-0.0037412,0.0027598,0.0255982,0.029741,-0.000734,0.0074214,-0.0127373,-0.0112631,0.0125568,-0.0003978,-0.0011316,-0.0008869,-0.005762,-0.0002452,0.0011379,-0.002572,0.0013015,-0.0011326,-0.0001053

Aben Aboo
07-21-2021, 12:11 AM
And which one would be suitable to show the Roman ancestry in the Iberian peninsula?

What I know is that until the 3rd century BC the expansion of the Roman republic took place mainly in Italy, by defeating and integrating the rest of the Latins, populations of Lazio (probably same populations than original Romans) then the city-states of Great Greece towards the South and the Etruscans in the North.
In the second century comes the expansion against the Carthaginians where therefore the North African component and components of the Near East type Levantine, must have been a little stronger (for the higher growth of the Near East among the Romans it is mainly with Empire).
The Romans are starting to conquer, it seems to me, territories in the Iberian peninsula when they are mainly facing the Carthaginians.
So we should see an ancient sample representative or close enough to a Latin / Etruscan / ancient Greek mix for the beginning of the Roman presence in Iberia. Or maybe just an ancient latin and etruscan sample shift, because they were majority.
I don't know very well old samples.

23abc
07-21-2021, 12:56 AM
How about this four way model?


NORTH_AFRICAN_ARAB,-0.0540496,0.134785,-0.0104119,-0.0759808,0.0227784,-0.0340407,-0.0267002,0.00661988,0.0635303,0.0263567,0.0070481 9,-0.00850909,0.0247584,-0.0140347,0.0154073,-0.0103158,-0.0029634,-0.0187958,-0.0389705,0.00998629,-0.012154,-0.0326596,0.0217281,-0.00246992,0.00409358
IBERIAN,0.125121,0.147854,0.0558907,0.00760246,0.0 592988,-0.00248928,-0.00166244,0.00249993,0.0316444,0.0460517,-0.0036747,0.010166,-0.0217045,-0.0154291,0.00734646,0.00683339,0.00767093,0.00128 096,0.000393407,0.00069937,0.0082747,0.00158922,-0.00735383,-0.0131946,0.000953519
ROMAN_EAST_MED, 0.106377125,0.147674875,-0.017614625,-0.051397375,0.0081295417,-0.0182556667,-0.0013610417,-0.0047400833,0.0001449167,0.0203193333,0.002841875 ,0.002141875,-0.0054137083,-0.0023854583,-0.00744775,-0.0005302917,0.0039821667,0.00097125,0.00277575,-0.004596,-0.0031455833,0.002617375,-0.0008679167,-0.0008334167,0.000299375
CONTINENTAL_EUROPEAN,0.128136,0.140475,0.0511353,0 .0255042,0.0396692,0.00987299,0.00237677,0.0040234 4,0.00910432,0.0131075,-0.00387401,0.00523793,-0.0123624,-0.00901975,0.0118917,0.00310208,-0.00400707,0.00179931,0.00240195,6.19059e-05,0.00314175,0.00217923,-0.00138136,0.00759189,-8.35891e-05

https://i.imgur.com/Z4EwWn1.png

Do you guys think this is accurate or not?

Because I think that Iberians, especially the Balearic Islanders, have an East Med component which is often ignored. The North African doesn't seem very significant compared to population flow from France and the Mediterranean.

Luso
07-21-2021, 01:16 AM
How about this four way model?


NORTH_AFRICAN_ARAB,-0.0540496,0.134785,-0.0104119,-0.0759808,0.0227784,-0.0340407,-0.0267002,0.00661988,0.0635303,0.0263567,0.0070481 9,-0.00850909,0.0247584,-0.0140347,0.0154073,-0.0103158,-0.0029634,-0.0187958,-0.0389705,0.00998629,-0.012154,-0.0326596,0.0217281,-0.00246992,0.00409358
IBERIAN,0.125121,0.147854,0.0558907,0.00760246,0.0 592988,-0.00248928,-0.00166244,0.00249993,0.0316444,0.0460517,-0.0036747,0.010166,-0.0217045,-0.0154291,0.00734646,0.00683339,0.00767093,0.00128 096,0.000393407,0.00069937,0.0082747,0.00158922,-0.00735383,-0.0131946,0.000953519
ROMAN_EAST_MED, 0.106377125,0.147674875,-0.017614625,-0.051397375,0.0081295417,-0.0182556667,-0.0013610417,-0.0047400833,0.0001449167,0.0203193333,0.002841875 ,0.002141875,-0.0054137083,-0.0023854583,-0.00744775,-0.0005302917,0.0039821667,0.00097125,0.00277575,-0.004596,-0.0031455833,0.002617375,-0.0008679167,-0.0008334167,0.000299375
CONTINENTAL_EUROPEAN,0.128136,0.140475,0.0511353,0 .0255042,0.0396692,0.00987299,0.00237677,0.0040234 4,0.00910432,0.0131075,-0.00387401,0.00523793,-0.0123624,-0.00901975,0.0118917,0.00310208,-0.00400707,0.00179931,0.00240195,6.19059e-05,0.00314175,0.00217923,-0.00138136,0.00759189,-8.35891e-05


Do you guys think this is accurate or not?

Because I think that Iberians, especially the Balearic Islanders, have an East Med component which is often ignored. The North African doesn't seem very significant compared to population flow from France and the Mediterranean.



^^ I get:

Target: Luso_scaled
Distance: 2.8331% / 0.02833071
43.8 CONTINENTAL_EUROPEAN
33.0 IBERIAN
16.8 NORTH_AFRICAN_ARAB
6.4 ROMAN_EAST_MED

It isn't "terrible", as I do usually get a high North African percentage.. but it is just inaccurate in getting more "continental europe" than actual Iberian. Sooooo I can't say I think the model is great either.


This one with modern references (without Canary islands and Moroccan Jews) and NAs recently contributed by J-live:


North_African:Zenete,-0.024586,0.140143,-0.003092,-0.069897,0.029421,-0.034527,-0.026838,0.006,0.062952,0.028757,0.001949,-0.006804,0.020099,-0.017341,0.017426,-0.012755,0.000026,-0.021132,-0.042285,0.007704,-0.016271,-0.038407,0.026252,-0.003085,0.006849
North_African:Kabyle,-0.015252,0.136893,-0.003017,-0.068088,0.026959,-0.033077,-0.023078,0.004292,0.059639,0.032292,0.006625,-0.004736,0.017245,-0.015028,0.012568,-0.009414,0.005867,-0.019358,-0.036402,0.006178,-0.013077,-0.031631,0.020089,-0.003687,0.004934
North_African:Oran,-0.030732,0.13405,-0.006034,-0.070414,0.01508,-0.030399,-0.021621,0.006692,0.050313,0.023144,0.006008,-0.01094,0.018285,-0.015276,0.016965,-0.01432,0.00691,-0.01951,-0.036075,0.014632,-0.001996,-0.023247,0.012078,0.001084,0.006227
North_African:Algerian,-0.065799,0.133152,-0.007615,-0.068526,0.020903,-0.030142,-0.022434,0.007757,0.053184,0.025064,0.005646,-0.006548,0.02155,-0.013514,0.013029,-0.009628,-0.003586,-0.01627,-0.031512,0.007393,-0.00932,-0.027831,0.017956,-0.000139,0.001506
North_African:Mauritania,-0.053497,0.136081,0.003017,-0.06137,0.02462,-0.03012,-0.029376,0.011076,0.052563,0.029522,0.005521,-0.004496,0.015312,-0.015827,0.009229,-0.016176,-0.004303,-0.021157,-0.037458,0.003752,-0.018218,-0.036601,0.026498,-0.000361,0.000599
North_African:Middle_Atlas,-0.051448,0.139534,0.000603,-0.074419,0.03176,-0.034192,-0.030269,0.007661,0.074365,0.030798,0.006366,-0.008392,0.020634,-0.020919,0.021661,-0.021798,-0.002529,-0.022906,-0.050103,0.01108,-0.018967,-0.047334,0.027928,-0.002771,0.003808
North_African:Timimoun,-0.293664,0.105158,0.001999,-0.040068,0.014449,-0.012341,-0.036674,0.021057,0.026936,0.021531,0.005757,-0.004526,0.021318,-0.007432,0.011428,-0.00883,0.003123,-0.011079,-0.023053,0.00499,-0.007362,-0.019636,0.012177,-0.000362,0.002652
North_African:Errachidia,-0.113444,0.128747,-0.002493,-0.067166,0.024586,-0.03091,-0.03123,0.011564,0.064686,0.029684,0.008489,-0.005603,0.021027,-0.016476,0.0206,-0.014047,-0.004223,-0.020714,-0.044581,0.008706,-0.015805,-0.041046,0.024335,-0.002142,0.005761
North_African:Tiznit,-0.102522,0.131656,-0.002317,-0.075951,0.031061,-0.035658,-0.033506,0.012016,0.076652,0.031566,0.008815,-0.00926,0.024731,-0.020417,0.020348,-0.015721,0.000112,-0.028831,-0.053422,0.011917,-0.020821,-0.051113,0.030741,-0.00519,0.007467
North_African:Chenini,-0.02795,0.139071,-0.008087,-0.076479,0.027732,-0.035202,-0.031387,0.005282,0.068425,0.029796,0.004006,-0.004388,0.019631,-0.016125,0.014092,-0.016905,0.000152,-0.02329,-0.046725,0.007858,-0.016831,-0.040428,0.028135,-0.004452,0.006367
North_African:Sened,-0.039102,0.134767,-0.018967,-0.0779,0.018809,-0.035567,-0.021662,0.005864,0.057688,0.020561,0.005645,-0.012236,0.026322,-0.009407,0.012478,-0.005007,-0.005691,-0.013168,-0.030337,0.01152,-0.008514,-0.024185,0.015,-0.00005,0.000549
North_African:Mozabite,-0.064978,0.135551,-0.003279,-0.071762,0.026025,-0.032836,-0.026066,0.010826,0.061731,0.030346,0.00651,-0.006366,0.021795,-0.016568,0.016316,-0.016176,-0.00271,-0.021928,-0.043557,0.008276,-0.014626,-0.036795,0.024682,-0.004228,0.005659
North_African:Saharawi,-0.095422,0.131342,-0.009664,-0.080683,0.024171,-0.035396,-0.032882,0.00899,0.077336,0.028884,0.010731,-0.009367,0.030562,-0.015569,0.023434,-0.014773,-0.003803,-0.024884,-0.048598,0.012444,-0.015078,-0.041553,0.027869,-0.002842,0.007589
North_African:Chefchaouen,-0.027175,0.135954,0.003347,-0.062501,0.031967,-0.031027,-0.027584,0.008423,0.066803,0.036789,0.005602,-0.005358,0.020645,-0.018269,0.018814,-0.011883,0,-0.021363,-0.045833,0.008848,-0.013539,-0.03555,0.024218,-0.006447,0.005823
North_African:Nador,-0.031301,0.139974,-0.0044,-0.072621,0.026313,-0.031608,-0.020368,0.001846,0.056346,0.029188,0.00636,-0.006295,0.015907,-0.010849,0.013368,-0.009303,0.000609,-0.017462,-0.036536,0.011672,-0.013185,-0.033077,0.020336,-0.00737,0.003533
North_African:Oujda,-0.033578,0.136081,-0.013765,-0.069364,0.02285,-0.034164,-0.024324,0.003115,0.056295,0.029933,0.005846,-0.009329,0.018508,-0.013384,0.010451,-0.009812,0.004759,-0.012004,-0.036892,0.006628,-0.008017,-0.035118,0.017532,-0.001145,0.002844
North_African:Ouarzazate,-0.18354,0.119494,0.00088,-0.058221,0.025005,-0.027308,-0.03251,0.014749,0.053296,0.028444,0.006834,-0.007656,0.024046,-0.017226,0.016796,-0.015867,0.000815,-0.019088,-0.041334,0.009359,-0.015254,-0.038271,0.024537,-0.003856,0.00495
North_African:Casablanca,-0.085367,0.130213,-0.012822,-0.070881,0.021132,-0.03294,-0.027783,0.009769,0.055403,0.024399,0.009509,-0.009025,0.02699,-0.014466,0.016302,-0.006187,-0.002767,-0.017033,-0.038422,0.009435,-0.009844,-0.029512,0.020911,-0.001125,0.005921
Basques:Basque_French_Labourd,0.1317244,0.1515907, 0.0590707,0.0119804,0.0576889,0.0008114,-0.002927,0.0038809,0.0336348,0.0419807,-0.0052258,0.0109811,-0.022583,-0.0170903,0.0165701,0.0012776,-0.0082142,0.0007485,-0.0003657,-0.0076286,0.0084055,-0.0010342,-0.0088738,-0.0080625,0.0034401
Basques:Basque_French_Lower_Navarre,0.1296547,0.14 82672,0.0555396,0.0110407,0.0550309,0.0014452,-0.0011536,0.0010908,0.0303997,0.0442501,-0.005034,0.0117168,-0.0227585,-0.0160266,0.0172241,-9.65e-05,-0.0076688,0.0026374,-0.002434,-0.0018646,0.0064885,0.0024506,-0.0078541,-0.0095961,0.002863
Basques:Basque_French_Soule,0.1317243,0.1548219,0. 0546482,0.0068124,0.0585285,0.0009128,-0.0019014,0.0012166,0.0309945,0.0432396,-0.0059936,0.0119895,-0.0227449,-0.0167275,0.0124615,-0.0010968,-0.0097314,0.0009675,-4e-04,-0.0032402,0.0092336,0.0020908,-0.0076526,-0.0095193,0.0025909
Basques:Basque_Spanish_Alava,0.1275854,0.1485442,0 .0590365,0.0157976,0.0537723,0.0043864,-0.0024142,0.0040906,0.0254166,0.0380211,-0.0069532,0.0096325,-0.0220693,-0.0149507,0.0158915,-0.0007835,-0.007337,6.91e-05,0.0003998,-0.004036,0.0089726,0.0019447,-0.0048067,-0.006244,-0.0004463
Basques:Basque_Spanish_Biscay,0.1301722,0.1502985, 0.0571167,0.0107177,0.0564578,0.0059581,-0.0008973,0.0009441,0.0267555,0.0419806,-0.0075289,0.0147005,-0.0246371,-0.017428,0.0157435,0.0008197,-0.0047056,0.0027871,0.0003085,-0.0022169,0.0100503,0.001675,-0.0068122,-0.0088072,-0.0002177
Basques:Basque_Spanish_Gipuzkoa_Central,0.1309999, 0.1484519,0.0538941,0.0111875,0.055199,0.0012676,-0.003995,0.0005454,0.0297675,0.0415664,-0.0054623,0.0126024,-0.0206367,-0.0177406,0.0159533,0.0058461,-0.0030225,0.0014051,-0.0006855,-0.0051503,0.005615,-0.001259,-0.0104089,-0.0103627,0.0014043
Basques:Basque_Spanish_Gipuzkoa_Southwest,0.131207 ,0.1493751,0.0579394,0.012274,0.05657,0.0019015,-0.0023714,0.0006712,0.0268855,0.0422788,-0.0058606,0.0100411,-0.0223531,-0.0195175,0.0152994,0.0049662,-0.0026907,0.0025337,-0.0018054,-0.001171,0.0102433,0.0023606,-0.010465,-0.0099685,0.0019158
Basques:Basque_Spanish_Navarra_Central-West,0.1272748,0.1485443,0.0532426,0.0056085,0.051 6178,0.0005325,-0.0035252,-0.0014895,0.0278152,0.0418315,-0.0034398,0.0098775,-0.0210964,-0.0188043,0.0148182,0.0009764,-0.0041725,0.0023035,-0.004948,-0.0005002,0.0070785,0.0003934,-0.0062744,-0.0079746,2.17e-05
Basques:Basque_Spanish_Navarra_Northwest,0.1295514 ,0.1497444,0.0564655,0.0105415,0.0575771,0.0006085 ,-0.0006195,0.0020768,0.0302136,0.0448301,-0.0060674,0.0120848,-0.0243263,-0.0192421,0.0141517,0.0025795,-0.0034966,0.0037662,-0.002057,-0.00274,0.0100505,0.002192,-0.0093445,-0.0109215,0.0025474
Basques:Basque_Spanish_Navarra_Roncal,0.1311035,0. 1488211,0.0549566,0.0122153,0.0545555,0.0015973,-0.00141,0.0009441,0.0336347,0.0403903,-0.006835,0.0101227,-0.0204747,-0.0169525,0.0158052,0.0007955,-0.003864,0.0037202,0.0002169,-0.0012505,0.0084623,0.0013375,-0.0054899,-0.0087085,0.0014369
South_French:French_Hautes-Pyrenees_Bigorre,0.1280511,0.1473535,0.052269,0.00 53295,0.0522249,-0.0008365,-0.0016685,0.0001617,0.0248088,0.0382695,-0.0030854,0.007883,-0.0214815,-0.0141476,0.0087403,0.0001856,-0.0035596,0.0023691,-0.0008926,-0.0029139,0.0025082,-0.0008902,-0.0032908,-0.0059043,0.0010298
South_French:French_Landes_Chalosse,0.1287339,0.14 77596,0.0518917,0.0111758,0.0513326,0.0027611,0.00 047,0.0017769,0.0252587,0.0396544,-0.0026958,0.008947,-0.0203367,-0.0150834,0.0110884,0.0028241,-0.0054241,0.0016723,-0.0007794,-0.0022384,0.0082731,0.002844,-0.0076906,-0.0076635,-0.0020956
South_French:French_Pyrenees-Atlantiques_Bearn,0.1267991,0.1448145,0.0535889,0. 0060078,0.0539486,0.0021754,-0.001692,-0.0020537,0.024461,0.0398913,-0.0088665,0.0102359,-0.0189989,-0.0143265,0.0141693,0.001578,-0.0057238,-0.0008996,-0.0017346,-0.0033017,0.0054653,0.0031407,-0.0066429,-0.0081696,0.0006825
Spain:Spanish_Aragon_North,0.1273681,0.1477595,0.0 490634,0.0057171,0.0498553,0.0010876,-0.000141,-0.0005538,0.0255859,0.0364654,-0.004417,0.0096965,-0.0186272,-0.0150697,0.0143594,0.004296,-0.003038,0.0026858,-0.0031172,-0.0011756,0.004517,0.0005194,-0.0056325,-0.0052896,0.0009341
Spain:Spanish_Biscay_West,0.1203111,0.1493845,0.04 96292,0.0097546,0.049086,0.0011714,-0.001927,0.0035996,0.0265268,0.0348616,-0.0055049,0.0108953,-0.0192517,-0.0162946,0.010464,0.0013788,-0.0057631,0.001837,-0.002313,-0.0017634,0.0071,-0.0004698,-0.0056324,-0.004133,0.0019878
Spain:Spanish_Cantabria,0.1151889,0.145627,0.04344 43,-0.0006783,0.0469933,-0.0032352,-0.000282,0.0023538,0.0254837,0.0319278,-0.0050178,0.0083326,-0.0150593,-0.0134595,0.0104641,0.0009016,-0.001747,-0.0021917,-0.0029664,-0.0026262,0.0035062,-0.0024732,-0.0041165,-0.0047958,-0.000982
Spain:Spanish_Castilla_y_Leon_Burgos_North,0.12361 17,0.1476578,0.0497421,0.0020672,0.0495476,-0.0034583,-0.000611,0.000877,0.0240111,0.0378322,-0.0068692,0.0086174,-0.0189989,-0.0126612,0.0114276,0.0019225,-0.0059585,-0.0001141,-0.0034943,-0.0038143,0.0077986,0.0006554,-0.0041904,-0.0021207,-0.0007785
Spain:Spanish_La_Rioja,0.121563,0.149689,0.0449904 ,0.0016796,0.0474856,-0.0027888,-0.002256,0.001823,0.0247064,0.0370667,-0.001234,0.0084523,-0.0194001,-0.0137622,0.0100977,0.000623,-0.0019949,0.0008615,-0.0038338,-0.0004753,0.0052783,-0.0009521,-0.0063472,-0.0061093,0.0006346
Basques:Basque_French,0.128051,0.1520246,0.0551727 ,0.0128231,0.0564104,0.0025099,-0.00141,0.0033229,0.0305968,0.0412036,-0.0092724,0.0103408,-0.0209761,-0.0140237,0.0132192,-0.0019359,-0.0119173,0.0030278,-0.0007165,-0.0044144,0.010157,0.0024855,-0.0086397,-0.0091698,7.18e-05
Basques:Basque_Spanish,0.1319083,0.1504111,0.05828 62,0.0090081,0.0575834,0.0001239,-0.0033162,0.0004102,0.0313603,0.0455997,-0.0045288,0.0116063,-0.0227781,-0.0187627,0.0179452,0.0037271,-0.0058094,0.0027731,-0.0018156,-6.96e-05,0.0087901,0.0024868,-0.0068883,-0.0090371,0.0022619
Spain:Spanish_Alacant,0.1134437,0.1465747,0.037209 2,0.0002692,0.0413408,-0.002789,-0.0051308,0.001769,0.023486,0.0313143,-0.0050883,0.0085173,-0.0154857,-0.0118125,0.0104505,0.0032708,-0.0015428,0.0001057,-0.0040433,-0.0055652,0.0040345,-0.0004122,-0.0041903,-0.001707,0.0031333
Spain:Spanish_Andalucia,0.1081318,0.1460759,0.0357 074,-0.003434,0.0452553,-0.0058567,-0.0019295,0.0026598,0.0247151,0.0311624,-0.0021538,0.0072724,-0.0132072,-0.0114083,0.0102433,-0.0024984,-0.0061762,-0.0011002,-0.0042604,-0.0021325,0.0029291,-0.0013016,-0.0019719,-0.0053334,0.0018844
Spain:Spanish_Aragon,0.1195142,0.14649,0.041389,-0.000323,0.0468548,-0.0001395,-0.0005287,0.002942,0.0249008,0.036903,-0.0021518,0.0103035,-0.0176535,-0.0128335,0.0127578,-0.0027845,-0.0047592,-0.0007918,-0.0022312,0.0010005,0.0034625,9.28e-05,-0.0011708,-0.0010545,-0.0002395
Spain:Spanish_Asturias,0.110408,0.144205,0.045632, 0.000646,0.051702,-0.007251,-0.007285,0.006923,0.025975,0.031345,-0.003248,0.008093,-0.019029,-0.009083,0.014386,-0.013392,-0.015907,0.001267,-0.005405,-0.000875,0.006863,-0.006059,-0.001602,0.001325,0.006466
Spain:Spanish_Baleares,0.1160993,0.1469133,0.04060 3,-0.0027993,0.0407257,-0.0022313,-0.0005483,0.0024613,0.0192253,0.0292793,-0.004547,0.007943,-0.015015,-0.0126153,0.003936,0.0022537,0.0019993,0.0010557,0 .0011313,-0.004377,0.000541,0.000618,0.0012327,0.0003217,-0.004111
Spain:Spanish_Cantabria,0.119514,0.14759,0.0443743 ,0.0059217,0.046778,-0.0059497,-0.0005483,0.001923,0.0235883,0.0347463,-0.0056293,0.0086423,-0.018632,-0.0168817,0.009093,0.001635,-0.0035203,0.0012667,-0.0054047,-0.004794,0.002787,0.000742,-0.0059567,-0.0017673,0.0006783
Spain:Spanish_Castello,0.1203273,0.1462361,0.04347 66,0.0011536,0.045283,-0.0015539,-0.001175,0.0011867,0.0240169,0.0348331,-0.0056141,0.0068511,-0.0159703,-0.0151189,0.0078719,0.0046974,0.0027569,0.0013937,-0.0008799,-0.0002679,0.0057756,0.0004063,-0.0064089,-0.002169,0.0005646
Spain:Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha,0.1155305,0.14801 35,0.040352,-0.00323,0.0420845,-0.004811,-0.0017038,0.0017308,0.024645,0.0339415,-0.0021108,0.008692,-0.015275,-0.012386,0.010281,-0.0010605,-0.0060302,-0.00019,-0.0001257,-0.000688,0.005459,0.0014837,-0.0010477,-0.003886,-0.0010778
Spain:Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon,0.1077523,0.1438667, 0.0404773,-0.0021533,0.0438027,0.0018593,-0.0017233,0.004615,0.0284287,0.0292183,-0.0023277,0.007843,-0.012091,-0.012019,0.01226,-0.006541,-0.0067797,-0.0017313,-0.004525,-0.0022927,0.000291,-0.0009067,0.0013147,-0.0025703,-0.002754
Spain:Spanish_Cataluna,0.114582,0.1462363,0.045883 3,0.0023687,0.0471883,0,-0.0020367,0.0023843,0.0223613,0.0304943,-0.0018947,0.0085923,-0.016006,-0.0106427,0.0088673,0.001591,-0.000652,-0.001647,-0.001131,-0.0009587,0.0061973,-0.005729,-0.0039027,-0.001928,0.0009577
Spain:Spanish_Eivissa,0.1161872,0.1467051,0.037654 1,-0.0040251,0.0397233,-0.0034111,0.0002712,0.0031417,0.0206569,0.0299145,-0.0025234,0.0074242,-0.0122246,-0.0085537,0.0088218,0.0009688,-0.0036809,-0.0029237,-0.0023785,-0.0039826,0.0032538,0.0018168,-0.0017445,-0.0001853,-0.0014738
Spain:Spanish_Extremadura,0.1050967,0.1499597,0.03 3061,-0.0011843,0.0409303,-0.0027887,-0.003995,-0.0010003,0.024679,0.031223,-0.0012993,0.0050453,-0.0106047,-0.012248,0.007555,0.0026077,-0.002347,-0.003294,-0.0064107,0.000417,0.0021213,-0.00474,-0.0014787,-0.0027713,0.0014373
Spain:Spanish_Galicia,0.1087643,0.1464619,0.041064 2,-0.0016509,0.0412043,-9.29e-05,-0.0054572,0.0024231,0.0247133,0.0300285,-0.0021291,0.0057365,-0.0126113,-0.0121567,0.0111441,0.0005893,-0.0042375,-0.0021607,-0.0050418,-0.0010076,0.0008734,-0.002899,-0.0008079,-0.0036818,0.0013038
Spain:Spanish_Girona,0.1213354,0.1459315,0.0418982 ,0.0032946,0.0411769,0.0016175,-0.0004464,0.003369,0.019982,0.0308893,-0.0020622,0.0088722,-0.0134539,-0.013487,0.0075732,0.0030497,0.0020472,-0.0006207,0.0016719,-0.0027263,0.0028325,-0.0010017,-0.0003451,0.0001325,-0.0016524
Spain::Spanish_La_Rioja,0.121791,0.152329,0.046763 ,-0.008398,0.053856,-0.010598,-0.00188,0.002308,0.027611,0.038816,-0.005359,0.005695,-0.016947,-0.014863,0.00665,0.013657,0.010561,-0.002407,-0.000628,5e-04,0.012977,0.002349,-0.002218,-0.009399,0.000838
Spain:Spanish_Lleida,0.1221701,0.1468006,0.0429918 ,0.0020457,0.0442476,-0.0015186,0.0006528,0.0021024,0.0225886,0.0298058,-0.0009203,0.0089422,-0.0164021,-0.0136553,0.0083998,0.0002358,-0.0014197,0.0006476,0.001257,-0.0009032,0.0073899,0.0003297,-0.001698,-0.0007898,-0.0006387
Spain:Spanish_Mallorca,0.1176172,0.1479288,0.03892 73,0.0010767,0.039392,-0.0013632,0.0003917,0.0030768,0.0174073,0.0279429,-0.0030313,0.0062778,-0.0155598,-0.0084102,0.0064392,0.0025192,0.0013618,0.001464,-0.0008798,-0.0013479,0.0009703,0.0007558,-0.0017529,0.0002009,-0.0002394
Spain:Spanish_Menorca,0.11572,0.1475903,0.036832,-0.0060293,0.042777,-0.0016733,0.00141,0.0001537,0.0216793,0.02934,-0.002219,0.0092913,-0.01442,-0.007248,0.003212,-0.0028727,-0.0028247,0.0013937,-0.00088,-0.0017923,0.0032857,0.0019373,0.0010683,-0.006627,-0.0058677
Spain:Spanish_Murcia,0.10927,0.142936,0.0379005,-0.005814,0.0454698,-0.0020918,-0.0049938,-0.003346,0.0252588,0.03221,-0.00341,0.0034095,-0.012376,-0.0108035,0.004716,-0.0014255,0.0010105,0.0008555,-6.28e-05,0.0010005,0.0050222,-0.0029368,-0.000678,-0.0030122,0.0019758
Spain:Spanish_Navarra,0.1195143,0.1462363,0.044249 ,-0.0007537,0.048727,-0.0012083,-0.0032117,-0.0014613,0.024952,0.038695,-0.0049797,0.0114897,-0.0152627,-0.0170197,0.0156533,0.0028287,-0.0087357,0.0010977,-0.002472,-0.0025427,0.0046583,0.0025553,-0.0069427,4.03e-05,0.0047503
Basques:Spanish_Pais_Vasco,0.128241,0.1516523,0.05 63163,0.008075,0.052112,0.0024173,0.000235,0.00292 3,0.0277467,0.039849,-0.0059003,0.0093417,-0.02106,-0.012065,0.0184127,-0.002475,-0.0123433,0.0028713,0.0022207,-0.0065867,0.0077363,-0.002432,-0.006532,-0.006748,0.003672
Spain:Spanish_Soria,0.121791,0.1421745,0.0499685,0 .0075905,0.0475475,0.001255,-0.0029375,-0.001269,0.0206565,0.0374495,-0.010474,0.01139,-0.017393,-0.0228455,0.0114005,0.0145185,0.01356,-0.002914,-0.0040855,-0.0006875,-0.000312,-0.001422,-0.003759,-0.0059045,-0.0020955
Spain:Spanish_Valencia,0.1179965,0.1446283,0.04085 48,-0.0008882,0.0464702,-0.0014408,-0.0019975,0.0016346,0.0231624,0.0332581,-0.0030042,0.0083301,-0.0128593,-0.0123401,0.0096022,-0.0008507,-0.0046938,-0.0017209,-0.001236,-0.0009171,0.0055735,-0.0013706,-0.0020438,-0.0051411,0.0020557
Portugal,0.1061741,0.1446114,0.0360075,-0.0044316,0.042137,-0.0040494,-0.0037412,0.0027598,0.0255982,0.029741,-0.000734,0.0074214,-0.0127373,-0.0112631,0.0125568,-0.0003978,-0.0011316,-0.0008869,-0.005762,-0.0002452,0.0011379,-0.002572,0.0013015,-0.0011326,-0.0001053

Target: Luso_scaled
Distance: 1.8885% / 0.01888475
44.8 Spain:Spanish_Asturias
27.8 Spain:Spanish_Menorca
21.0 Spain:Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
2.8 North_African:Mauritania
2.2 North_African:Timimoun
1.4 North_African:Oran

23abc
07-21-2021, 02:04 AM
^^ I get:

Target: Luso_scaled
Distance: 2.8331% / 0.02833071
43.8 CONTINENTAL_EUROPEAN
33.0 IBERIAN
16.8 NORTH_AFRICAN_ARAB
6.4 ROMAN_EAST_MED

It isn't "terrible", as I do usually get a high North African percentage.. but it is just inaccurate in getting more "continental europe" than actual Iberian. Sooooo I can't say I think the model is great either.



Target: Luso_scaled
Distance: 1.8885% / 0.01888475
44.8 Spain:Spanish_Asturias
27.8 Spain:Spanish_Menorca
21.0 Spain:Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
2.8 North_African:Mauritania
2.2 North_African:Timimoun
1.4 North_African:Oran

Continental European definitely looks inflated, but so does the North African. What DNA testing company raw data did you use when purchasing your coordinate? I'm guessing 23andMe v5, MyHeritage v2 or FTDNA v3? The coverage of these is very low to the 1240K+HO dataset, so your G25 coordinate would be very noisy.

Luso
07-21-2021, 02:11 AM
Continental European definitely looks inflated, but so does the North African. What DNA testing company raw data did you use when purchasing your coordinate? I'm guessing 23andMe v5, MyHeritage v2 or FTDNA v3? The coverage of these is very low to the 1240K+HO dataset, so your G25 coordinate would be very noisy.

Nah, it actually is ancestrydna data :beerchug:

luasits
07-21-2021, 08:38 AM
Distance: 3.2832% / 0.03283246
47.4 CONTINENTAL_EUROPEAN
35.6 IBERIAN
17.0 NORTH_AFRICAN_ARAB

Distance: 2.0591% / 0.02059055
59.2 Spain:Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
18.4 Basques:Basque_French
15.6 Spain:Spanish_Asturias
6.8 North_African:Middle_Atlas

mokordo
07-21-2021, 10:38 AM
What I know is that until the 3rd century BC the expansion of the Roman republic took place mainly in Italy, by defeating and integrating the rest of the Latins, populations of Lazio (probably same populations than original Romans) then the city-states of Great Greece towards the South and the Etruscans in the North.
In the second century comes the expansion against the Carthaginians where therefore the North African component and components of the Near East type Levantine, must have been a little stronger (for the higher growth of the Near East among the Romans it is mainly with Empire).
The Romans are starting to conquer, it seems to me, territories in the Iberian peninsula when they are mainly facing the Carthaginians.
So we should see an ancient sample representative or close enough to a Latin / Etruscan / ancient Greek mix for the beginning of the Roman presence in Iberia. Or maybe just an ancient latin and etruscan sample shift, because they were majority.
I don't know very well old samples.

But the arrival of settlers, and the massive settlement of Roman citizens occurred in a more generalized way from the second century AD, in addition there were already Greek colonies prior to the arrival of the Romans, so that reference would perfectly show the Greco-Roman mixture. The Italian tribes of northern Italy or the Etruscans, are useless for Spanish because they have a brutal overlapping with the Iberians, both ancient and modern. Those should be used only by Italians.

In a way those pre-Roman tribes of the Italic peninsula are a bit like those Guanches references, don't you think? What they most resemble is the current Spanish, in fact I have seen some foreigners make models directly labeling them as "Iberian", when in fact they are not.

Ruderico
07-21-2021, 10:55 AM
Mokordo is right, it makes no sense to use ancient Italic samples to model modern Iberia, they predate Roman colonisation of Iberia by many centuries. By the time Roman cities in Iberia begin to grow with colonisers we're already into the Imperial Era. The amount of Imperial Italian samples that remain similar to the ancient ones are so residual (do they even exist at all?) it makes no sense to use them. Rome expanded south and incorporated south Italy first, it's not an accident that we refer to the Greco-Roman world.
They also ruin models due to brutal overfitting because they aren't very different from us - essentially a BB-like population with a small amount of East Mediterranean ancestry. They just have lower steppe ancestry. Results using those references alone are pretty much meaningless.


Continental European definitely looks inflated, but so does the North African. What DNA testing company raw data did you use when purchasing your coordinate? I'm guessing 23andMe v5, MyHeritage v2 or FTDNA v3? The coverage of these is very low to the 1240K+HO dataset, so your G25 coordinate would be very noisy.

His North African % looks fine without scaled G25 data (close to national average), but inflated NA is extremely common if you use it - Pedro Ruben's father sometimes gets a hilarious 25%. In reality it should be fairly homogenous in Portugal, it's what every single study thus far published showed. The CE is likely the product overfitting, it isn't horribly different from the Iberian reference. Take all results with a lot of salt.

mokordo
07-21-2021, 01:44 PM
How about this four way model?


NORTH_AFRICAN_ARAB,-0.0540496,0.134785,-0.0104119,-0.0759808,0.0227784,-0.0340407,-0.0267002,0.00661988,0.0635303,0.0263567,0.0070481 9,-0.00850909,0.0247584,-0.0140347,0.0154073,-0.0103158,-0.0029634,-0.0187958,-0.0389705,0.00998629,-0.012154,-0.0326596,0.0217281,-0.00246992,0.00409358
IBERIAN,0.125121,0.147854,0.0558907,0.00760246,0.0 592988,-0.00248928,-0.00166244,0.00249993,0.0316444,0.0460517,-0.0036747,0.010166,-0.0217045,-0.0154291,0.00734646,0.00683339,0.00767093,0.00128 096,0.000393407,0.00069937,0.0082747,0.00158922,-0.00735383,-0.0131946,0.000953519
ROMAN_EAST_MED, 0.106377125,0.147674875,-0.017614625,-0.051397375,0.0081295417,-0.0182556667,-0.0013610417,-0.0047400833,0.0001449167,0.0203193333,0.002841875 ,0.002141875,-0.0054137083,-0.0023854583,-0.00744775,-0.0005302917,0.0039821667,0.00097125,0.00277575,-0.004596,-0.0031455833,0.002617375,-0.0008679167,-0.0008334167,0.000299375
CONTINENTAL_EUROPEAN,0.128136,0.140475,0.0511353,0 .0255042,0.0396692,0.00987299,0.00237677,0.0040234 4,0.00910432,0.0131075,-0.00387401,0.00523793,-0.0123624,-0.00901975,0.0118917,0.00310208,-0.00400707,0.00179931,0.00240195,6.19059e-05,0.00314175,0.00217923,-0.00138136,0.00759189,-8.35891e-05

Do you guys think this is accurate or not?

Because I think that Iberians, especially the Balearic Islanders, have an East Med component which is often ignored. The North African doesn't seem very significant compared to population flow from France and the Mediterranean.

Target: gixajo_scaled
Distance: 1.9255% / 0.01925522
54.2 IBERIAN
32.6 CONTINENTAL_EUROPEAN
9.2 ROMAN_EAST_MED
4.0 NORTH_AFRICAN_ARAB

Target: gixajo_dad_scaled
Distance: 2.2416% / 0.02241611
56.0 IBERIAN
18.6 CONTINENTAL_EUROPEAN
17.6 ROMAN_EAST_MED
7.8 NORTH_AFRICAN_ARAB

Target: gixajo_mom_scaled
Distance: 2.5932% / 0.02593212
48.2 CONTINENTAL_EUROPEAN
47.4 IBERIAN
4.2 NORTH_AFRICAN_ARAB
0.2 ROMAN_EAST_MED

North Africans are also to a large degree Mediterranean people.

Gil Vicente
07-21-2021, 06:04 PM
If basques are used as "Iberian" it will give faulty results to everyone except for iberians that are close to basques.

Target: Gil_Vicente
Distance: 2.3922% / 0.02392218
54.0 CONTINENTAL_EUROPEAN
23.0 IBERIAN
12.6 NORTH_AFRICAN_ARAB
10.4 ROMAN_EAST_MED

I'm even closer to CONTINENTAL_EUROPEAN (which i don't know which sample was chosen) than to IBERIAN:

Distance to: Gil_Vicente
0.05083607 CONTINENTAL_EUROPEAN
0.05693270 IBERIAN
0.09269495 ROMAN_EAST_MED
0.20460027 NORTH_AFRICAN_ARAB

23abc
07-21-2021, 07:24 PM
If basques are used as "Iberian" it will give faulty results to everyone except for iberians that are close to basques.

Target: Gil_Vicente
Distance: 2.3922% / 0.02392218
54.0 CONTINENTAL_EUROPEAN
23.0 IBERIAN
12.6 NORTH_AFRICAN_ARAB
10.4 ROMAN_EAST_MED

I'm even closer to CONTINENTAL_EUROPEAN (which i don't know which sample was chosen) than to IBERIAN:

Distance to: Gil_Vicente
0.05083607 CONTINENTAL_EUROPEAN
0.05693270 IBERIAN
0.09269495 ROMAN_EAST_MED
0.20460027 NORTH_AFRICAN_ARAB

'Iberian' was an average of many Ancient Iberian samples in the BA - IA range. It's not based on modern populations such as the Basque. The model was trying to measure the maximum amount of non-Iberian admixture there can be in modern Iberians, but it does seem that the 'Continental European' is too high, which is an average of admixture that peaks on the French-Belgian-German border.

mokordo
07-21-2021, 07:53 PM
If basques are used as "Iberian" it will give faulty results to everyone except for iberians that are close to basques.

B

Nah, no way, my mother too.

We will get more Iberian even using North Italian IA tribes than that Iberian reference used with that strange Continental European.

23abc
07-21-2021, 08:55 PM
Indeed, it seems that forming an average of ancient Iberian samples didn't have the desired effect. So instead of averaging stuff out, it might be better to just use existing averages, straight from the spreadsheet:


Iberia_North_IA,0.125205,0.1431895,0.065053,0.0114 665,0.058011,0.003347,-0.0034075,0.0045,0.026077,0.034989,-0.002192,0.0088425,-0.0169475,-0.0085325,0.0107215,6.65e-05,-0.008279,0.0008865,-0.000126,-0.00075,0.0082355,0.0023495,-0.0070865,-0.0118085,-0.0061075
ITA_Collegno_MA,0.1274148,0.1402029,0.0478721,0.02 5156,0.0373462,0.0095972,0.0042715,0.0043165,0.004 656,0.0081148,-0.0045372,0.0052717,-0.0124002,-0.0043554,0.0149372,-0.0001169,-0.0091959,0.0027648,0.0042073,0.0001986,0.0056958, 0.0044151,-0.0017545,0.009016,0.0006479
ITA_Rome_Imperial,0.1039821,0.1495156,-0.0235307,-0.0574065,0.0045265,-0.0204055,-0.0011946,-0.0051488,0.0006604,0.0196549,0.0034575,0.0025539,-0.0040602,-0.0014737,-0.0081715,-0.0014474,0.0035992,0.000454,0.0012178,-0.0032854,-0.0025579,0.0020454,-0.0006985,-0.0004845,0.0004141
Mozabite,-0.0649782,0.135551,-0.0032793,-0.0717622,0.0260249,-0.0328364,-0.0260656,0.0108257,0.0617306,0.0303463,0.0065097,-0.006366,0.021795,-0.0165685,0.0163159,-0.016176,-0.0027097,-0.0219282,-0.0435571,0.0082757,-0.0146263,-0.0367947,0.0246817,-0.0042277,0.0056594

https://i.ibb.co/rwrSQHh/image.png

Perhaps this one produces better results?

Gil Vicente
07-21-2021, 09:06 PM
Nah, no way, my mother too.

We will get more Iberian even using North Italian IA tribes than that Iberian reference used with that strange Continental European.

Yeah i immediately blamed Basques when i saw the high distances. This time it's not their fault.

mokordo
07-21-2021, 09:56 PM
Indeed, it seems that forming an average of ancient Iberian samples didn't have the desired effect. So instead of averaging stuff out, it might be better to just use existing averages, straight from the spreadsheet:


Iberia_North_IA,0.125205,0.1431895,0.065053,0.0114 665,0.058011,0.003347,-0.0034075,0.0045,0.026077,0.034989,-0.002192,0.0088425,-0.0169475,-0.0085325,0.0107215,6.65e-05,-0.008279,0.0008865,-0.000126,-0.00075,0.0082355,0.0023495,-0.0070865,-0.0118085,-0.0061075
ITA_Collegno_MA,0.1274148,0.1402029,0.0478721,0.02 5156,0.0373462,0.0095972,0.0042715,0.0043165,0.004 656,0.0081148,-0.0045372,0.0052717,-0.0124002,-0.0043554,0.0149372,-0.0001169,-0.0091959,0.0027648,0.0042073,0.0001986,0.0056958, 0.0044151,-0.0017545,0.009016,0.0006479
ITA_Rome_Imperial,0.1039821,0.1495156,-0.0235307,-0.0574065,0.0045265,-0.0204055,-0.0011946,-0.0051488,0.0006604,0.0196549,0.0034575,0.0025539,-0.0040602,-0.0014737,-0.0081715,-0.0014474,0.0035992,0.000454,0.0012178,-0.0032854,-0.0025579,0.0020454,-0.0006985,-0.0004845,0.0004141
Mozabite,-0.0649782,0.135551,-0.0032793,-0.0717622,0.0260249,-0.0328364,-0.0260656,0.0108257,0.0617306,0.0303463,0.0065097,-0.006366,0.021795,-0.0165685,0.0163159,-0.016176,-0.0027097,-0.0219282,-0.0435571,0.0082757,-0.0146263,-0.0367947,0.0246817,-0.0042277,0.0056594

Perhaps this one produces better results?

You have achieved something quite difficult, homogenize my parents and my results. Our results are quite similar.

Target: gixajo_scaled
Distance: 1.9715% / 0.01971512
72.0 Iberia_North_IA
15.4 ITA_Rome_Imperial
10.4 ITA_Collegno_MA
2.2 Mozabite

Target: gixajo_dad_scaled
Distance: 2.3852% / 0.02385181
70.6 Iberia_North_IA
23.2 ITA_Rome_Imperial
6.2 Mozabite

Target: gixajo_mom_scaled
Distance: 2.1296% / 0.02129602
70.2 Iberia_North_IA
21.4 ITA_Collegno_MA
5.8 ITA_Rome_Imperial
2.6 Mozabite

I would add Iberia East IA reference (still missing a West Iberia IA reference to complete the image):


Iberia_North_IA,0.125205,0.1431895,0.065053,0.0114 665,0.058011,0.003347,-0.0034075,0.0045,0.026077,0.034989,-0.002192,0.0088425,-0.0169475,-0.0085325,0.0107215,6.65e-05,-0.008279,0.0008865,-0.000126,-0.00075,0.0082355,0.0023495,-0.0070865,-0.0118085,-0.0061075
Iberia_East_IA,0.1244941,0.1489018,0.0564739,0.002 1802,0.0598572,-0.0031725,-0.0036426,0.0044711,0.0299882,0.0468802,-0.0047092,0.0111088,-0.0233585,-0.0145191,0.0078549,0.0056351,0.0067799,0.0016153, 0.0038024,-0.0010318,0.0055682,-9.26e-05,-0.007364,-0.0123961,-0.0011226
ITA_Collegno_MA,0.1274148,0.1402029,0.0478721,0.02 5156,0.0373462,0.0095972,0.0042715,0.0043165,0.004 656,0.0081148,-0.0045372,0.0052717,-0.0124002,-0.0043554,0.0149372,-0.0001169,-0.0091959,0.0027648,0.0042073,0.0001986,0.0056958, 0.0044151,-0.0017545,0.009016,0.0006479
ITA_Rome_Imperial,0.1039821,0.1495156,-0.0235307,-0.0574065,0.0045265,-0.0204055,-0.0011946,-0.0051488,0.0006604,0.0196549,0.0034575,0.0025539,-0.0040602,-0.0014737,-0.0081715,-0.0014474,0.0035992,0.000454,0.0012178,-0.0032854,-0.0025579,0.0020454,-0.0006985,-0.0004845,0.0004141
Mozabite,-0.0649782,0.135551,-0.0032793,-0.0717622,0.0260249,-0.0328364,-0.0260656,0.0108257,0.0617306,0.0303463,0.0065097,-0.006366,0.021795,-0.0165685,0.0163159,-0.016176,-0.0027097,-0.0219282,-0.0435571,0.0082757,-0.0146263,-0.0367947,0.0246817,-0.0042277,0.0056594


Target: gixajo_scaled
Distance: 1.8234% / 0.01823383
34.6 Iberia_East_IA
30.2 Iberia_North_IA
21.8 ITA_Collegno_MA
10.4 ITA_Rome_Imperial
3.0 Mozabite

Target: gixajo_dad_scaled
Distance: 2.1062% / 0.02106247
51.6 Iberia_East_IA
16.2 ITA_Rome_Imperial
15.2 ITA_Collegno_MA
9.8 Iberia_North_IA
7.2 Mozabite

Target: gixajo_mom_scaled
Distance: 2.1296% / 0.02129602
70.2 Iberia_North_IA
21.4 ITA_Collegno_MA
5.8 ITA_Rome_Imperial
2.6 Mozabite

Luso
07-22-2021, 12:19 AM
I would add Iberia East IA reference (still missing a West Iberia IA reference to complete the image):


Iberia_North_IA,0.125205,0.1431895,0.065053,0.0114 665,0.058011,0.003347,-0.0034075,0.0045,0.026077,0.034989,-0.002192,0.0088425,-0.0169475,-0.0085325,0.0107215,6.65e-05,-0.008279,0.0008865,-0.000126,-0.00075,0.0082355,0.0023495,-0.0070865,-0.0118085,-0.0061075
Iberia_East_IA,0.1244941,0.1489018,0.0564739,0.002 1802,0.0598572,-0.0031725,-0.0036426,0.0044711,0.0299882,0.0468802,-0.0047092,0.0111088,-0.0233585,-0.0145191,0.0078549,0.0056351,0.0067799,0.0016153, 0.0038024,-0.0010318,0.0055682,-9.26e-05,-0.007364,-0.0123961,-0.0011226
ITA_Collegno_MA,0.1274148,0.1402029,0.0478721,0.02 5156,0.0373462,0.0095972,0.0042715,0.0043165,0.004 656,0.0081148,-0.0045372,0.0052717,-0.0124002,-0.0043554,0.0149372,-0.0001169,-0.0091959,0.0027648,0.0042073,0.0001986,0.0056958, 0.0044151,-0.0017545,0.009016,0.0006479
ITA_Rome_Imperial,0.1039821,0.1495156,-0.0235307,-0.0574065,0.0045265,-0.0204055,-0.0011946,-0.0051488,0.0006604,0.0196549,0.0034575,0.0025539,-0.0040602,-0.0014737,-0.0081715,-0.0014474,0.0035992,0.000454,0.0012178,-0.0032854,-0.0025579,0.0020454,-0.0006985,-0.0004845,0.0004141
Mozabite,-0.0649782,0.135551,-0.0032793,-0.0717622,0.0260249,-0.0328364,-0.0260656,0.0108257,0.0617306,0.0303463,0.0065097,-0.006366,0.021795,-0.0165685,0.0163159,-0.016176,-0.0027097,-0.0219282,-0.0435571,0.0082757,-0.0146263,-0.0367947,0.0246817,-0.0042277,0.0056594



Yep, lack of IA NW or (in my case) SW Iberia makes it hard to model us, westerners...

Anyway with the added east:

Target: Luso_scaled
Distance: 2.3289% / 0.02328862
52.4 Iberia_North_IA
21.6 ITA_Collegno_MA
14.8 Mozabite
11.2 ITA_Rome_Imperial

The distance is quite far as well... it's pretty interesting how far eastern Iberian samples really are from the western ones. Even back then I assumed regional differences but not this much. To put it in perspective most runs get eastern Spain at the same distance from most modern Italian samples for me I think.


Distance to: Luso_scaled
0.05423216 Iberia_North_IA
0.05842045 Iberia_East_IA
0.06343843 ITA_Collegno_MA
0.10352171 ITA_Rome_Imperial
0.20292529 Mozabite

hantrolugharsts
07-22-2021, 01:07 AM
Target: hantro_scaled
Distance: 2.0661% / 0.02066090
67.4 Iberia_North_IA
12.4 ITA_Rome_Imperial
11.6 ITA_Collegno_MA
8.6 Mozabite

Distance to: hantro_scaled
0.04065076 Iberia_North_IA
0.04242186 Iberia_East_IA
0.05647937 ITA_Collegno_MA
0.10879290 ITA_Rome_Imperial
0.21648276 Mozabite


Después he añadido dos muestras más que se han impuesto a las muestras ITA



Iberia_North_IA,0.125205,0.1431895,0.065053,0.0114 665,0.058011,0.003347,-0.0034075,0.0045,0.026077,0.034989,-0.002192,0.0088425,-0.0169475,-0.0085325,0.0107215,6.65e-05,-0.008279,0.0008865,-0.000126,-0.00075,0.0082355,0.0023495,-0.0070865,-0.0118085,-0.0061075
ITA_Collegno_MA,0.1274148,0.1402029,0.0478721,0.02 5156,0.0373462,0.0095972,0.0042715,0.0043165,0.004 656,0.0081148,-0.0045372,0.0052717,-0.0124002,-0.0043554,0.0149372,-0.0001169,-0.0091959,0.0027648,0.0042073,0.0001986,0.0056958, 0.0044151,-0.0017545,0.009016,0.0006479
ITA_Rome_Imperial,0.1039821,0.1495156,-0.0235307,-0.0574065,0.0045265,-0.0204055,-0.0011946,-0.0051488,0.0006604,0.0196549,0.0034575,0.0025539,-0.0040602,-0.0014737,-0.0081715,-0.0014474,0.0035992,0.000454,0.0012178,-0.0032854,-0.0025579,0.0020454,-0.0006985,-0.0004845,0.0004141
Mozabite,-0.0649782,0.135551,-0.0032793,-0.0717622,0.0260249,-0.0328364,-0.0260656,0.0108257,0.0617306,0.0303463,0.0065097,-0.006366,0.021795,-0.0165685,0.0163159,-0.016176,-0.0027097,-0.0219282,-0.0435571,0.0082757,-0.0146263,-0.0367947,0.0246817,-0.0042277,0.0056594
Levant_Ashkelon_IA1:ASH068,0.108132,0.156392,-0.003771,-0.065569,0.024312,-0.02761,0.00893,-0.008538,0.001841,0.054306,-0.002598,0.015586,-0.023042,0.003441,-0.022801,0.012198,0.031553,0.004307,0.008547,-0.009755,-0.006364,0.016446,0.011462,-0.005302,0.005389
North_Caucasus,0.1118315,0.1024153,-0.0287335,-0.0090908,-0.0356423,0.0042915,0.0086275,-0.0047280,-0.0549838,-0.0298180,-0.0004145,0.0068230,-0.0156533,-0.0030655,0.0105975,-0.0093328,0.0040275,-0.0036700,-0.0081430,0.0127298,0.0042930,0.0017125,0.0033763, 0.0023808,-0.0027710



Target: hantro_scaled

Distance: 1.9222% / 0.01922227
76.6 Iberia_North_IA
9.2 Mozabite
9.2 North_Caucasus
5.0 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1:ASH068


Distance to: hantro_scaled
0.02643374 77.40% Iberia_North_IA + 22.60% ITA_Rome_Imperial
0.02732764 87.80% Iberia_North_IA + 12.20% Mozabite
0.03087161 85.20% Iberia_North_IA + 14.80% North_Caucasus
0.03202947 81.60% Iberia_North_IA + 18.40% Levant_Ashkelon_IA1:ASH068
0.03881737 77.20% Iberia_North_IA + 22.80% ITA_Collegno_MA
0.04047227 84.40% ITA_Collegno_MA + 15.60% Mozabite
0.04542033 76.20% ITA_Collegno_MA + 23.80% Levant_Ashkelon_IA1:ASH068
0.04872018 77.20% ITA_Collegno_MA + 22.80% ITA_Rome_Imperial
0.10615545 70.40% Levant_Ashkelon_IA1:ASH068 + 29.60% North_Caucasus
0.10664101 68.20% ITA_Rome_Imperial + 31.80% Levant_Ashkelon_IA1:ASH068
0.10762261 92.20% ITA_Rome_Imperial + 7.80% Mozabite
0.10862139 94.80% ITA_Rome_Imperial + 5.20% North_Caucasus
0.11038315 16.40% Mozabite + 83.60% Levant_Ashkelon_IA1:ASH068
0.12942840 32.80% Mozabite + 67.20% North_Caucasus

Que interesante


Y con la muestra Iberia Este

Distance to: hantro_scaled
0.02921374 83.20% Iberia_East_IA + 16.80% North_Caucasus
0.03305778 89.00% Iberia_East_IA + 11.00% Mozabite
0.03368127 80.00% Iberia_East_IA + 20.00% ITA_Rome_Imperial
0.03496516 64.80% Iberia_East_IA + 35.20% ITA_Collegno_MA
0.04047227 84.40% ITA_Collegno_MA + 15.60% Mozabite
0.04081074 90.40% Iberia_East_IA + 9.60% Levant_Ashkelon_IA1:ASH068
0.04542033 76.20% ITA_Collegno_MA + 23.80% Levant_Ashkelon_IA1:ASH068
0.04872018 77.20% ITA_Collegno_MA + 22.80% ITA_Rome_Imperial
0.10615545 70.40% Levant_Ashkelon_IA1:ASH068 + 29.60% North_Caucasus
0.10664101 68.20% ITA_Rome_Imperial + 31.80% Levant_Ashkelon_IA1:ASH068
0.10762261 92.20% ITA_Rome_Imperial + 7.80% Mozabite
0.10862139 94.80% ITA_Rome_Imperial + 5.20% North_Caucasus
0.11038315 16.40% Mozabite + 83.60% Levant_Ashkelon_IA1:ASH068
0.12942840 32.80% Mozabite + 67.20% North_Caucasus

Aben Aboo
07-22-2021, 07:41 AM
Mokordo is right, it makes no sense to use ancient Italic samples to model modern Iberia, they predate Roman colonisation of Iberia by many centuries. By the time Roman cities in Iberia begin to grow with colonisers we're already into the Imperial Era. The amount of Imperial Italian samples that remain similar to the ancient ones are so residual (do they even exist at all?) it makes no sense to use them. Rome expanded south and incorporated south Italy first, it's not an accident that we refer to the Greco-Roman world.
They also ruin models due to brutal overfitting because they aren't very different from us - essentially a BB-like population with a small amount of East Mediterranean ancestry. They just have lower steppe ancestry. Results using those references alone are pretty much meaningless.



His North African % looks fine without scaled G25 data (close to national average), but inflated NA is extremely common if you use it - Pedro Ruben's father sometimes gets a hilarious 25%. In reality it should be fairly homogenous in Portugal, it's what every single study thus far published showed. The CE is likely the product overfitting, it isn't horribly different from the Iberian reference. Take all results with a lot of salt.

Hello, Òla,
How to explain this high North African for a portuguese ?(concerning Pedro's father).

And just for the fun, results with the 2 models+Iberia East IA.

Distance: 2.0835% / 0.02083459
63.4 CONTINENTAL_EUROPEAN
21.4 NORTH_AFRICAN_ARAB
15.0 IBERIAN
0.2 ROMAN_EAST_MED

Distance: 1.6664% / 0.01666437
48.2 ITA_Collegno_MA
28.8 Iberia_North_IA
19.8 Mozabite
3.2 ITA_Rome_Imperial

Ruderico
07-22-2021, 08:40 AM
Hello, Òla,
How to explain this high North African for a portuguese ?(concerning Pedro's father).

And just for the fun, results with the 2 models

Distance: 2.0835% / 0.02083459
63.4 CONTINENTAL_EUROPEAN
21.4 NORTH_AFRICAN_ARAB
15.0 IBERIAN
0.2 ROMAN_EAST_MED

Distance: 1.6664% / 0.01666437
48.2 ITA_Collegno_MA
28.8 Iberia_North_IA
19.8 Mozabite
3.2 ITA_Rome_Imperial

I already answered that, scaling can produce totally absurd values of NA in some Iberians, I've seen him getting even higher. This can particularly affect people whose PC1 is quite low, because 'scaling' crunches higher dimensions a lot, particularly after PC3 or PC4. That's one of the reasons I don't trust, and avoid, using that type of data. NA ancestry should theoretically be the easiest to model because part of it is quite different from everything else, yet occasionally models have varying results in groups where there should be relative (https://postimg.cc/nMKCBrkr) homogeneity (https://postimg.cc/xXZCnz0x). Don't trust results that go totally against what's been published in papers. Back in December I ran my usual model for him and the results were as follow.

[1] "distance%=1.407"

Pai_PR

NW_Iberia_IA,72.4
Roman_Colonial,13.8
Berber_EMA,11.2
SSA,2.6


[1] "distance%=1.0954"

PR

NW_Iberia_IA,72.6
Roman_Colonial,16.4
Berber_EMA,9.4
SSA,1.6


[1] "distance%=0.5963"

Portuguese

NW_Iberia_IA,73.4
Roman_Colonial,12.4
Berber_EMA,11.4
Germanic,2.2
SSA,0.6
Everyone's NA (Berber_EMA/Guanche) looks fine. Edit: NW_Iberia_IA is a group with IA_Iberia reference and a non-Germanic NW European one.


Also, avoid using averages that were built with heterogeneous samples.

mokordo
07-22-2021, 03:56 PM
This model is for Spanish, Portugueses, Moroccans and everybody, based on K7M1 calculator components:

One of the NA references is Guanches+Mozabite.:beerchug:

For fun.:)


NorthEurope:C,0.1322201,0.1318650,0.0690996,0.0540 536,0.0411083,0.0203550,0.0063480,0.0085921,0.0039 627,-0.0050433,-0.0051267,0.0027133,-0.0066029,-0.0049211,0.0170562,0.0046144,-0.0072215,0.0020337,0.0032074,0.0043827,0.0062226, 0.0020471,0.0008548,0.0123209,-0.0002481
NorthEurope:B,0.1329007,0.1330598,0.0640338,0.0482 285,0.0396183,0.0188292,0.0037550,0.0063442,0.0060 028,0.0023639,-0.0039826,0.0047973,-0.0102146,-0.0113367,0.0208354,0.0075515,-0.0070618,0.0024813,0.0018842,0.0013788,0.0053090, 0.0047081,0.0021330,0.0144774,0.0009515
NorthEurope:A,0.1334816,0.1305704,0.0725472,0.0622 685,0.0411729,0.0230855,0.0086496,0.0104759,0.0003 822,-0.0133344,-0.0038947,-0.0034265,0.0057320,0.0098256,0.0026598,0.0026379,-0.0016838,0.0013502,0.0043125,0.0029879,0.0003044,-0.0013153,0.0033939,0.0035773,-0.0001699
Mediterranean:C,0.1175021,0.1522024,0.0131117,-0.0290239,0.0281755,-0.0108070,0.0003106,-0.0000207,0.0112778,0.0286273,0.0003480,0.0051544,-0.0104434,-0.0070975,-0.0056954,0.0017732,0.0019070,0.0003711,0.0021368,-0.0040556,-0.0015687,0.0018085,-0.0014745,-0.0008736,-0.0005047
Mediterranean:B,0.1119496,0.1474633,0.0158468,-0.0232089,0.0272359,-0.0091918,-0.0004994,0.0000962,0.0117091,0.0257409,-0.0018811,0.0051393,-0.0100379,-0.0071621,-0.0013544,0.0007347,0.0023877,0.0003986,0.0018593,-0.0042025,-0.0017728,0.0012338,0.0011454,0.0011450,-0.0019109
Mediterranean:A,0.1138282,0.1567101,0.0020262,-0.0537017,0.0311681,-0.0202563,-0.0000726,-0.0008632,0.0193862,0.0470037,0.0023738,0.0093585,-0.0165770,-0.0067692,-0.0129613,-0.0021371,0.0073507,0.0018347,0.0037750,-0.0088735,-0.0032131,-0.0010333,-0.0048695,-0.0111253,-0.0015376
North-Africa&Middle-East:C,-0.0016487,0.1293798,-0.0279963,-0.0643489,0.0011031,-0.0248201,-0.0126619,0.0024762,0.0256814,0.0116270,0.0039461,-0.0057942,0.0158931,-0.0066402,0.0051367,-0.0025348,-0.0035865,-0.0085272,-0.0147837,0.0037576,-0.0040512,-0.0140738,0.0078979,-0.0005040,0.0006492
North-Africa&Middle-East:B,-0.0665265,0.1305816,-0.0173774,-0.0759173,0.0150527,-0.0337539,-0.0243682,0.0063965,0.0537354,0.0171104,0.0078226,-0.0107085,0.0281069,-0.0097318,0.0124117,-0.0033484,-0.0032775,-0.0133039,-0.0292700,0.0103519,-0.0063273,-0.0213877,0.0151552,-0.0001629,0.0028122
North-Africa&Middle-East:A,-0.0319985,0.1327509,-0.0289315,-0.0811794,0.0076091,-0.0320166,-0.0179392,0.0027941,0.0459914,0.0104961,0.0062087,-0.0084069,0.0248369,-0.0041792,0.0062629,-0.0036026,-0.0035095,-0.0077702,-0.0162455,0.0042089,-0.0055142,-0.0125585,0.0094778,-0.0012402,-0.0000988
Africa,-0.6288095,0.0630167,0.0203102,0.0163027,-0.0003595,0.0132416,-0.0203556,0.0264603,-0.0342216,0.0176320,0.0028253,-0.0003810,-0.0026898,0.0014056,-0.0072018,0.0053008,-0.0069715,0.0047920,-0.0040719,0.0024061,0.0008330,-0.0000165,-0.0001668,-0.0004286,0.0000528
Caspian-Sea,0.0931469,0.0155393,-0.0162084,-0.0182677,-0.0351782,-0.0037385,0.0077839,0.0007160,-0.0300876,-0.0142009,-0.0066677,0.0014295,-0.0043213,-0.0007814,0.0031224,-0.0018958,0.0000414,-0.0006024,-0.0023464,0.0022127,-0.0021795,-0.0009286,-0.0012907,-0.0013459,0.0008493
NorthEast-Asia,0.0322505,-0.4082800,0.0289517,-0.0488880,0.0135814,0.0005805,0.0086908,0.0066365,-0.0060397,0.0072121,-0.0601552,-0.0066757,0.0066744,-0.0045911,-0.0047523,-0.0008353,-0.0003683,0.0015630,0.0008372,-0.0019067,0.0040009,-0.0035659,0.0005333,0.0010382,-0.0093532
SouthEast-Asia,0.0185499,-0.3802170,-0.0552083,-0.0231905,0.0748771,0.0470961,-0.0003930,-0.0020512,0.0008652,0.0007396,0.0022951,-0.0004824,0.0010521,-0.0008071,-0.0044839,-0.0029513,0.0023879,-0.0027351,-0.0057284,0.0048542,-0.0014464,0.0161556,0.0022065,0.0024525,0.0257212
NorthEurope:D,0.1328674,0.1318317,0.0685602,0.0548 502,0.0406331,0.0207566,0.0062508,0.0084707,0.0034 492,-0.0053379,-0.0043346,0.0013614,-0.0036952,-0.0021441,0.0135171,0.0049346,-0.0053223,0.0019551,0.0031347,0.0029164,0.0039453, 0.0018133,0.0021272,0.0101252,0.0001779
Mediterranean:E,0.1156724,0.1521986,0.0206027,-0.0258081,0.0353858,-0.0108200,-0.0015768,0.0007361,0.0185057,0.0362336,-0.0013689,0.0076255,-0.0141855,-0.0088843,-0.0028702,0.0008809,0.0030749,0.0000496,0.0009381,-0.0058460,-0.0007949,0.0007618,-0.0024888,-0.0037579,-0.0002267
North-Africa&Middle-East:F,-0.0333912,0.1309041,-0.0247684,-0.0738152,0.0079216,-0.0301968,-0.0183231,0.0038889,0.0418027,0.0130778,0.0059925,-0.0083032,0.0229456,-0.0068504,0.0079371,-0.0031619,-0.0034578,-0.0098671,-0.0200997,0.0061061,-0.0052976,-0.0160066,0.0108436,-0.0006357,0.0011209
North-Africa&Middle-East:D,-0.0521805,0.1334803,-0.0028089,-0.0702483,0.0298771,-0.0346018,-0.0280265,0.0095434,0.0663092,0.0304446,0.0070386,-0.0061804,0.0200252,-0.0171334,0.0197621,-0.0146114,0.0002359,-0.0205671,-0.0439391,0.0093404,-0.0140513,-0.0372545,0.0239755,-0.0027042,0.0051409
Mediterranean:D,0.1105013,0.1461064,0.0400689,-0.0018134,0.0437052,-0.0019083,-0.0025552,0.0024914,0.0243510,0.0307251,-0.0024252,0.0073919,-0.0136292,-0.0125400,0.0104779,0.0000309,-0.0029235,-0.0010660,-0.0031489,-0.0017925,0.0022127,-0.0019910,-0.0011278,-0.0026969,0.0002928

Cabaon
07-22-2021, 05:30 PM
This model is for Spanish, Portugueses, Moroccans and everybody, based on K7M1 calculator components:

One of the NA references is Guanches+Mozabite.:beerchug:

For fun.:)


NorthEurope:C,0.1322201,0.1318650,0.0690996,0.0540 536,0.0411083,0.0203550,0.0063480,0.0085921,0.0039 627,-0.0050433,-0.0051267,0.0027133,-0.0066029,-0.0049211,0.0170562,0.0046144,-0.0072215,0.0020337,0.0032074,0.0043827,0.0062226, 0.0020471,0.0008548,0.0123209,-0.0002481
NorthEurope:B,0.1329007,0.1330598,0.0640338,0.0482 285,0.0396183,0.0188292,0.0037550,0.0063442,0.0060 028,0.0023639,-0.0039826,0.0047973,-0.0102146,-0.0113367,0.0208354,0.0075515,-0.0070618,0.0024813,0.0018842,0.0013788,0.0053090, 0.0047081,0.0021330,0.0144774,0.0009515
NorthEurope:A,0.1334816,0.1305704,0.0725472,0.0622 685,0.0411729,0.0230855,0.0086496,0.0104759,0.0003 822,-0.0133344,-0.0038947,-0.0034265,0.0057320,0.0098256,0.0026598,0.0026379,-0.0016838,0.0013502,0.0043125,0.0029879,0.0003044,-0.0013153,0.0033939,0.0035773,-0.0001699
Mediterranean:C,0.1175021,0.1522024,0.0131117,-0.0290239,0.0281755,-0.0108070,0.0003106,-0.0000207,0.0112778,0.0286273,0.0003480,0.0051544,-0.0104434,-0.0070975,-0.0056954,0.0017732,0.0019070,0.0003711,0.0021368,-0.0040556,-0.0015687,0.0018085,-0.0014745,-0.0008736,-0.0005047
Mediterranean:B,0.1119496,0.1474633,0.0158468,-0.0232089,0.0272359,-0.0091918,-0.0004994,0.0000962,0.0117091,0.0257409,-0.0018811,0.0051393,-0.0100379,-0.0071621,-0.0013544,0.0007347,0.0023877,0.0003986,0.0018593,-0.0042025,-0.0017728,0.0012338,0.0011454,0.0011450,-0.0019109
Mediterranean:A,0.1138282,0.1567101,0.0020262,-0.0537017,0.0311681,-0.0202563,-0.0000726,-0.0008632,0.0193862,0.0470037,0.0023738,0.0093585,-0.0165770,-0.0067692,-0.0129613,-0.0021371,0.0073507,0.0018347,0.0037750,-0.0088735,-0.0032131,-0.0010333,-0.0048695,-0.0111253,-0.0015376
North-Africa&Middle-East:C,-0.0016487,0.1293798,-0.0279963,-0.0643489,0.0011031,-0.0248201,-0.0126619,0.0024762,0.0256814,0.0116270,0.0039461,-0.0057942,0.0158931,-0.0066402,0.0051367,-0.0025348,-0.0035865,-0.0085272,-0.0147837,0.0037576,-0.0040512,-0.0140738,0.0078979,-0.0005040,0.0006492
North-Africa&Middle-East:B,-0.0665265,0.1305816,-0.0173774,-0.0759173,0.0150527,-0.0337539,-0.0243682,0.0063965,0.0537354,0.0171104,0.0078226,-0.0107085,0.0281069,-0.0097318,0.0124117,-0.0033484,-0.0032775,-0.0133039,-0.0292700,0.0103519,-0.0063273,-0.0213877,0.0151552,-0.0001629,0.0028122
North-Africa&Middle-East:A,-0.0319985,0.1327509,-0.0289315,-0.0811794,0.0076091,-0.0320166,-0.0179392,0.0027941,0.0459914,0.0104961,0.0062087,-0.0084069,0.0248369,-0.0041792,0.0062629,-0.0036026,-0.0035095,-0.0077702,-0.0162455,0.0042089,-0.0055142,-0.0125585,0.0094778,-0.0012402,-0.0000988
Africa,-0.6288095,0.0630167,0.0203102,0.0163027,-0.0003595,0.0132416,-0.0203556,0.0264603,-0.0342216,0.0176320,0.0028253,-0.0003810,-0.0026898,0.0014056,-0.0072018,0.0053008,-0.0069715,0.0047920,-0.0040719,0.0024061,0.0008330,-0.0000165,-0.0001668,-0.0004286,0.0000528
Caspian-Sea,0.0931469,0.0155393,-0.0162084,-0.0182677,-0.0351782,-0.0037385,0.0077839,0.0007160,-0.0300876,-0.0142009,-0.0066677,0.0014295,-0.0043213,-0.0007814,0.0031224,-0.0018958,0.0000414,-0.0006024,-0.0023464,0.0022127,-0.0021795,-0.0009286,-0.0012907,-0.0013459,0.0008493
NorthEast-Asia,0.0322505,-0.4082800,0.0289517,-0.0488880,0.0135814,0.0005805,0.0086908,0.0066365,-0.0060397,0.0072121,-0.0601552,-0.0066757,0.0066744,-0.0045911,-0.0047523,-0.0008353,-0.0003683,0.0015630,0.0008372,-0.0019067,0.0040009,-0.0035659,0.0005333,0.0010382,-0.0093532
SouthEast-Asia,0.0185499,-0.3802170,-0.0552083,-0.0231905,0.0748771,0.0470961,-0.0003930,-0.0020512,0.0008652,0.0007396,0.0022951,-0.0004824,0.0010521,-0.0008071,-0.0044839,-0.0029513,0.0023879,-0.0027351,-0.0057284,0.0048542,-0.0014464,0.0161556,0.0022065,0.0024525,0.0257212
NorthEurope:D,0.1328674,0.1318317,0.0685602,0.0548 502,0.0406331,0.0207566,0.0062508,0.0084707,0.0034 492,-0.0053379,-0.0043346,0.0013614,-0.0036952,-0.0021441,0.0135171,0.0049346,-0.0053223,0.0019551,0.0031347,0.0029164,0.0039453, 0.0018133,0.0021272,0.0101252,0.0001779
Mediterranean:E,0.1156724,0.1521986,0.0206027,-0.0258081,0.0353858,-0.0108200,-0.0015768,0.0007361,0.0185057,0.0362336,-0.0013689,0.0076255,-0.0141855,-0.0088843,-0.0028702,0.0008809,0.0030749,0.0000496,0.0009381,-0.0058460,-0.0007949,0.0007618,-0.0024888,-0.0037579,-0.0002267
North-Africa&Middle-East:F,-0.0333912,0.1309041,-0.0247684,-0.0738152,0.0079216,-0.0301968,-0.0183231,0.0038889,0.0418027,0.0130778,0.0059925,-0.0083032,0.0229456,-0.0068504,0.0079371,-0.0031619,-0.0034578,-0.0098671,-0.0200997,0.0061061,-0.0052976,-0.0160066,0.0108436,-0.0006357,0.0011209
North-Africa&Middle-East:D,-0.0521805,0.1334803,-0.0028089,-0.0702483,0.0298771,-0.0346018,-0.0280265,0.0095434,0.0663092,0.0304446,0.0070386,-0.0061804,0.0200252,-0.0171334,0.0197621,-0.0146114,0.0002359,-0.0205671,-0.0439391,0.0093404,-0.0140513,-0.0372545,0.0239755,-0.0027042,0.0051409
Mediterranean:D,0.1105013,0.1461064,0.0400689,-0.0018134,0.0437052,-0.0019083,-0.0025552,0.0024914,0.0243510,0.0307251,-0.0024252,0.0073919,-0.0136292,-0.0125400,0.0104779,0.0000309,-0.0029235,-0.0010660,-0.0031489,-0.0017925,0.0022127,-0.0019910,-0.0011278,-0.0026969,0.0002928




Target: Cabaon
Distance: 2.2100% / 0.02210002
80.6 North-Africa&Middle-East
18.6 Mediterranean
0.6 NorthEurope
0.2 Africa

Gil Vicente
07-22-2021, 06:09 PM
Target: Gil_Vicente
Distance: 2.1479% / 0.02147946
49.8 ITA_Collegno_MA
24.6 Iberia_East_IA
12.4 Mozabite
8.4 ITA_Rome_Imperial
4.8 Iberia_North_IA


Target: Gil_Vicente
Distance: 2.0024% / 0.02002355
86.0 Mediterranean
11.8 NorthEurope
2.2 Africa

Aben Aboo
07-22-2021, 09:45 PM
@Ruderico All right, i see, thank you very much I understand better, thank you for your explanation and return.

Luso
07-22-2021, 11:03 PM
Target: Luso_scaled
Distance: 2.4954% / 0.02495375
87.4 Mediterranean
6.4 North-Africa&Middle-East
5.4 NorthEurope
0.8 Africa

Pedro Ruben
07-22-2021, 11:32 PM
Target: Pedro_scaled
Distance: 1.9426% / 0.01942645
69.8 Mediterranean
16.8 NorthEurope
12.0 North-Africa&Middle-East
1.4 Africa

Target: Dad_scaled
Distance: 1.9789% / 0.01978858
77.0 Mediterranean
11.6 North-Africa&Middle-East
9.0 NorthEurope
1.8 Africa
0.6 NorthEast-Asia

Target: Mom_scaled
Distance: 1.8800% / 0.01879983
89.4 Mediterranean
7.8 NorthEurope
2.4 Africa
0.4 North-Africa&Middle-East

luasits
07-23-2021, 09:28 AM
82.4 Mediterranean
9.6 NorthEurope
8.0 North-Africa&Middle-East

Shadogowah
07-23-2021, 10:12 AM
This model is for Spanish, Portugueses, Moroccans and everybody, based on K7M1 calculator components:

One of the NA references is Guanches+Mozabite.:beerchug:

For fun.:)


NorthEurope:C,0.1322201,0.1318650,0.0690996,0.0540 536,0.0411083,0.0203550,0.0063480,0.0085921,0.0039 627,-0.0050433,-0.0051267,0.0027133,-0.0066029,-0.0049211,0.0170562,0.0046144,-0.0072215,0.0020337,0.0032074,0.0043827,0.0062226, 0.0020471,0.0008548,0.0123209,-0.0002481
NorthEurope:B,0.1329007,0.1330598,0.0640338,0.0482 285,0.0396183,0.0188292,0.0037550,0.0063442,0.0060 028,0.0023639,-0.0039826,0.0047973,-0.0102146,-0.0113367,0.0208354,0.0075515,-0.0070618,0.0024813,0.0018842,0.0013788,0.0053090, 0.0047081,0.0021330,0.0144774,0.0009515
NorthEurope:A,0.1334816,0.1305704,0.0725472,0.0622 685,0.0411729,0.0230855,0.0086496,0.0104759,0.0003 822,-0.0133344,-0.0038947,-0.0034265,0.0057320,0.0098256,0.0026598,0.0026379,-0.0016838,0.0013502,0.0043125,0.0029879,0.0003044,-0.0013153,0.0033939,0.0035773,-0.0001699
Mediterranean:C,0.1175021,0.1522024,0.0131117,-0.0290239,0.0281755,-0.0108070,0.0003106,-0.0000207,0.0112778,0.0286273,0.0003480,0.0051544,-0.0104434,-0.0070975,-0.0056954,0.0017732,0.0019070,0.0003711,0.0021368,-0.0040556,-0.0015687,0.0018085,-0.0014745,-0.0008736,-0.0005047
Mediterranean:B,0.1119496,0.1474633,0.0158468,-0.0232089,0.0272359,-0.0091918,-0.0004994,0.0000962,0.0117091,0.0257409,-0.0018811,0.0051393,-0.0100379,-0.0071621,-0.0013544,0.0007347,0.0023877,0.0003986,0.0018593,-0.0042025,-0.0017728,0.0012338,0.0011454,0.0011450,-0.0019109
Mediterranean:A,0.1138282,0.1567101,0.0020262,-0.0537017,0.0311681,-0.0202563,-0.0000726,-0.0008632,0.0193862,0.0470037,0.0023738,0.0093585,-0.0165770,-0.0067692,-0.0129613,-0.0021371,0.0073507,0.0018347,0.0037750,-0.0088735,-0.0032131,-0.0010333,-0.0048695,-0.0111253,-0.0015376
North-Africa&Middle-East:C,-0.0016487,0.1293798,-0.0279963,-0.0643489,0.0011031,-0.0248201,-0.0126619,0.0024762,0.0256814,0.0116270,0.0039461,-0.0057942,0.0158931,-0.0066402,0.0051367,-0.0025348,-0.0035865,-0.0085272,-0.0147837,0.0037576,-0.0040512,-0.0140738,0.0078979,-0.0005040,0.0006492
North-Africa&Middle-East:B,-0.0665265,0.1305816,-0.0173774,-0.0759173,0.0150527,-0.0337539,-0.0243682,0.0063965,0.0537354,0.0171104,0.0078226,-0.0107085,0.0281069,-0.0097318,0.0124117,-0.0033484,-0.0032775,-0.0133039,-0.0292700,0.0103519,-0.0063273,-0.0213877,0.0151552,-0.0001629,0.0028122
North-Africa&Middle-East:A,-0.0319985,0.1327509,-0.0289315,-0.0811794,0.0076091,-0.0320166,-0.0179392,0.0027941,0.0459914,0.0104961,0.0062087,-0.0084069,0.0248369,-0.0041792,0.0062629,-0.0036026,-0.0035095,-0.0077702,-0.0162455,0.0042089,-0.0055142,-0.0125585,0.0094778,-0.0012402,-0.0000988
Africa,-0.6288095,0.0630167,0.0203102,0.0163027,-0.0003595,0.0132416,-0.0203556,0.0264603,-0.0342216,0.0176320,0.0028253,-0.0003810,-0.0026898,0.0014056,-0.0072018,0.0053008,-0.0069715,0.0047920,-0.0040719,0.0024061,0.0008330,-0.0000165,-0.0001668,-0.0004286,0.0000528
Caspian-Sea,0.0931469,0.0155393,-0.0162084,-0.0182677,-0.0351782,-0.0037385,0.0077839,0.0007160,-0.0300876,-0.0142009,-0.0066677,0.0014295,-0.0043213,-0.0007814,0.0031224,-0.0018958,0.0000414,-0.0006024,-0.0023464,0.0022127,-0.0021795,-0.0009286,-0.0012907,-0.0013459,0.0008493
NorthEast-Asia,0.0322505,-0.4082800,0.0289517,-0.0488880,0.0135814,0.0005805,0.0086908,0.0066365,-0.0060397,0.0072121,-0.0601552,-0.0066757,0.0066744,-0.0045911,-0.0047523,-0.0008353,-0.0003683,0.0015630,0.0008372,-0.0019067,0.0040009,-0.0035659,0.0005333,0.0010382,-0.0093532
SouthEast-Asia,0.0185499,-0.3802170,-0.0552083,-0.0231905,0.0748771,0.0470961,-0.0003930,-0.0020512,0.0008652,0.0007396,0.0022951,-0.0004824,0.0010521,-0.0008071,-0.0044839,-0.0029513,0.0023879,-0.0027351,-0.0057284,0.0048542,-0.0014464,0.0161556,0.0022065,0.0024525,0.0257212
NorthEurope:D,0.1328674,0.1318317,0.0685602,0.0548 502,0.0406331,0.0207566,0.0062508,0.0084707,0.0034 492,-0.0053379,-0.0043346,0.0013614,-0.0036952,-0.0021441,0.0135171,0.0049346,-0.0053223,0.0019551,0.0031347,0.0029164,0.0039453, 0.0018133,0.0021272,0.0101252,0.0001779
Mediterranean:E,0.1156724,0.1521986,0.0206027,-0.0258081,0.0353858,-0.0108200,-0.0015768,0.0007361,0.0185057,0.0362336,-0.0013689,0.0076255,-0.0141855,-0.0088843,-0.0028702,0.0008809,0.0030749,0.0000496,0.0009381,-0.0058460,-0.0007949,0.0007618,-0.0024888,-0.0037579,-0.0002267
North-Africa&Middle-East:F,-0.0333912,0.1309041,-0.0247684,-0.0738152,0.0079216,-0.0301968,-0.0183231,0.0038889,0.0418027,0.0130778,0.0059925,-0.0083032,0.0229456,-0.0068504,0.0079371,-0.0031619,-0.0034578,-0.0098671,-0.0200997,0.0061061,-0.0052976,-0.0160066,0.0108436,-0.0006357,0.0011209
North-Africa&Middle-East:D,-0.0521805,0.1334803,-0.0028089,-0.0702483,0.0298771,-0.0346018,-0.0280265,0.0095434,0.0663092,0.0304446,0.0070386,-0.0061804,0.0200252,-0.0171334,0.0197621,-0.0146114,0.0002359,-0.0205671,-0.0439391,0.0093404,-0.0140513,-0.0372545,0.0239755,-0.0027042,0.0051409
Mediterranean:D,0.1105013,0.1461064,0.0400689,-0.0018134,0.0437052,-0.0019083,-0.0025552,0.0024914,0.0243510,0.0307251,-0.0024252,0.0073919,-0.0136292,-0.0125400,0.0104779,0.0000309,-0.0029235,-0.0010660,-0.0031489,-0.0017925,0.0022127,-0.0019910,-0.0011278,-0.0026969,0.0002928


Target: Shadogowah_scaled
Distance: 1.6778% / 0.01677820
96.0 Mediterranean
4.0 North-Africa&Middle-East

hantrolugharsts
07-23-2021, 03:36 PM
Target: hantro_scaled
Distance: 2.1041% / 0.02104095
96.2 Mediterranean
2.4 NorthEurope
1.4 North-Africa&Middle-East

JJJ
07-24-2021, 06:40 PM
This model is for Spanish, Portugueses, Moroccans and everybody, based on K7M1 calculator components:

One of the NA references is Guanches+Mozabite.:beerchug:

For fun.:)


NorthEurope:C,0.1322201,0.1318650,0.0690996,0.0540 536,0.0411083,0.0203550,0.0063480,0.0085921,0.0039 627,-0.0050433,-0.0051267,0.0027133,-0.0066029,-0.0049211,0.0170562,0.0046144,-0.0072215,0.0020337,0.0032074,0.0043827,0.0062226, 0.0020471,0.0008548,0.0123209,-0.0002481
NorthEurope:B,0.1329007,0.1330598,0.0640338,0.0482 285,0.0396183,0.0188292,0.0037550,0.0063442,0.0060 028,0.0023639,-0.0039826,0.0047973,-0.0102146,-0.0113367,0.0208354,0.0075515,-0.0070618,0.0024813,0.0018842,0.0013788,0.0053090, 0.0047081,0.0021330,0.0144774,0.0009515
NorthEurope:A,0.1334816,0.1305704,0.0725472,0.0622 685,0.0411729,0.0230855,0.0086496,0.0104759,0.0003 822,-0.0133344,-0.0038947,-0.0034265,0.0057320,0.0098256,0.0026598,0.0026379,-0.0016838,0.0013502,0.0043125,0.0029879,0.0003044,-0.0013153,0.0033939,0.0035773,-0.0001699
Mediterranean:C,0.1175021,0.1522024,0.0131117,-0.0290239,0.0281755,-0.0108070,0.0003106,-0.0000207,0.0112778,0.0286273,0.0003480,0.0051544,-0.0104434,-0.0070975,-0.0056954,0.0017732,0.0019070,0.0003711,0.0021368,-0.0040556,-0.0015687,0.0018085,-0.0014745,-0.0008736,-0.0005047
Mediterranean:B,0.1119496,0.1474633,0.0158468,-0.0232089,0.0272359,-0.0091918,-0.0004994,0.0000962,0.0117091,0.0257409,-0.0018811,0.0051393,-0.0100379,-0.0071621,-0.0013544,0.0007347,0.0023877,0.0003986,0.0018593,-0.0042025,-0.0017728,0.0012338,0.0011454,0.0011450,-0.0019109
Mediterranean:A,0.1138282,0.1567101,0.0020262,-0.0537017,0.0311681,-0.0202563,-0.0000726,-0.0008632,0.0193862,0.0470037,0.0023738,0.0093585,-0.0165770,-0.0067692,-0.0129613,-0.0021371,0.0073507,0.0018347,0.0037750,-0.0088735,-0.0032131,-0.0010333,-0.0048695,-0.0111253,-0.0015376
North-Africa&Middle-East:C,-0.0016487,0.1293798,-0.0279963,-0.0643489,0.0011031,-0.0248201,-0.0126619,0.0024762,0.0256814,0.0116270,0.0039461,-0.0057942,0.0158931,-0.0066402,0.0051367,-0.0025348,-0.0035865,-0.0085272,-0.0147837,0.0037576,-0.0040512,-0.0140738,0.0078979,-0.0005040,0.0006492
North-Africa&Middle-East:B,-0.0665265,0.1305816,-0.0173774,-0.0759173,0.0150527,-0.0337539,-0.0243682,0.0063965,0.0537354,0.0171104,0.0078226,-0.0107085,0.0281069,-0.0097318,0.0124117,-0.0033484,-0.0032775,-0.0133039,-0.0292700,0.0103519,-0.0063273,-0.0213877,0.0151552,-0.0001629,0.0028122
North-Africa&Middle-East:A,-0.0319985,0.1327509,-0.0289315,-0.0811794,0.0076091,-0.0320166,-0.0179392,0.0027941,0.0459914,0.0104961,0.0062087,-0.0084069,0.0248369,-0.0041792,0.0062629,-0.0036026,-0.0035095,-0.0077702,-0.0162455,0.0042089,-0.0055142,-0.0125585,0.0094778,-0.0012402,-0.0000988
Africa,-0.6288095,0.0630167,0.0203102,0.0163027,-0.0003595,0.0132416,-0.0203556,0.0264603,-0.0342216,0.0176320,0.0028253,-0.0003810,-0.0026898,0.0014056,-0.0072018,0.0053008,-0.0069715,0.0047920,-0.0040719,0.0024061,0.0008330,-0.0000165,-0.0001668,-0.0004286,0.0000528
Caspian-Sea,0.0931469,0.0155393,-0.0162084,-0.0182677,-0.0351782,-0.0037385,0.0077839,0.0007160,-0.0300876,-0.0142009,-0.0066677,0.0014295,-0.0043213,-0.0007814,0.0031224,-0.0018958,0.0000414,-0.0006024,-0.0023464,0.0022127,-0.0021795,-0.0009286,-0.0012907,-0.0013459,0.0008493
NorthEast-Asia,0.0322505,-0.4082800,0.0289517,-0.0488880,0.0135814,0.0005805,0.0086908,0.0066365,-0.0060397,0.0072121,-0.0601552,-0.0066757,0.0066744,-0.0045911,-0.0047523,-0.0008353,-0.0003683,0.0015630,0.0008372,-0.0019067,0.0040009,-0.0035659,0.0005333,0.0010382,-0.0093532
SouthEast-Asia,0.0185499,-0.3802170,-0.0552083,-0.0231905,0.0748771,0.0470961,-0.0003930,-0.0020512,0.0008652,0.0007396,0.0022951,-0.0004824,0.0010521,-0.0008071,-0.0044839,-0.0029513,0.0023879,-0.0027351,-0.0057284,0.0048542,-0.0014464,0.0161556,0.0022065,0.0024525,0.0257212
NorthEurope:D,0.1328674,0.1318317,0.0685602,0.0548 502,0.0406331,0.0207566,0.0062508,0.0084707,0.0034 492,-0.0053379,-0.0043346,0.0013614,-0.0036952,-0.0021441,0.0135171,0.0049346,-0.0053223,0.0019551,0.0031347,0.0029164,0.0039453, 0.0018133,0.0021272,0.0101252,0.0001779
Mediterranean:E,0.1156724,0.1521986,0.0206027,-0.0258081,0.0353858,-0.0108200,-0.0015768,0.0007361,0.0185057,0.0362336,-0.0013689,0.0076255,-0.0141855,-0.0088843,-0.0028702,0.0008809,0.0030749,0.0000496,0.0009381,-0.0058460,-0.0007949,0.0007618,-0.0024888,-0.0037579,-0.0002267
North-Africa&Middle-East:F,-0.0333912,0.1309041,-0.0247684,-0.0738152,0.0079216,-0.0301968,-0.0183231,0.0038889,0.0418027,0.0130778,0.0059925,-0.0083032,0.0229456,-0.0068504,0.0079371,-0.0031619,-0.0034578,-0.0098671,-0.0200997,0.0061061,-0.0052976,-0.0160066,0.0108436,-0.0006357,0.0011209
North-Africa&Middle-East:D,-0.0521805,0.1334803,-0.0028089,-0.0702483,0.0298771,-0.0346018,-0.0280265,0.0095434,0.0663092,0.0304446,0.0070386,-0.0061804,0.0200252,-0.0171334,0.0197621,-0.0146114,0.0002359,-0.0205671,-0.0439391,0.0093404,-0.0140513,-0.0372545,0.0239755,-0.0027042,0.0051409
Mediterranean:D,0.1105013,0.1461064,0.0400689,-0.0018134,0.0437052,-0.0019083,-0.0025552,0.0024914,0.0243510,0.0307251,-0.0024252,0.0073919,-0.0136292,-0.0125400,0.0104779,0.0000309,-0.0029235,-0.0010660,-0.0031489,-0.0017925,0.0022127,-0.0019910,-0.0011278,-0.0026969,0.0002928


Target: Juan_scaled
Distance: 2.8220% / 0.02821951
97.0 Mediterranean
1.6 Africa
1.4 SouthEast-Asia