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Scythoslav
07-21-2021, 12:45 AM
So I just got back my preliminary results from YFull and I am E-S7461. Is this a common subclade for Moldova and Romania region? Can anyone with knowledge about this subclade give me some info on it? Thank you.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-S7461/

Scythoslav
07-21-2021, 02:29 AM
subclade E-Y150909

Bane
07-21-2021, 12:07 PM
The issue with Romania and Moldova is that there is low number of people which did tests for "deeper" haplogroup level.
But based on what is available so far it should not be expected that S7461 is more common than Z5017 and Z5018 in these two countries (and in Europe in general).

You may want to check this LINK (http://community.haplozone.net/index.php?topic=3904.0).

Dorkymon
07-21-2021, 12:38 PM
So I just got back my preliminary results from YFull and I am E-S7461. Is this a common subclade for Moldova and Romania region? Can anyone with knowledge about this subclade give me some info on it? Thank you.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-S7461/

From the deeper clades there is a E-Z16988 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z16988/) from Drochia district, which diverges from your subclade after the E-BY3880 level. Following the same branch and again divering at E-BY3880 is E-A7065 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-A7065/) from Vaslui county. Another one who is E-FGC63243 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-A7065/) follows the same path as the one from Vaslui county, and diverges at E-L241 level.
There are also one E-A16692 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-A16692/) from Suceava county and E-BY192463 (https://yfull.com/tree/E-BY192463/) from Vrancea county who follow the same path, diverge after E-Y17225. These two however don't fall under E-V13.

Most people from Moldova and Romania don't test yDNA separately, so they get assigned the high level clades from commercial autosomal tests. Even worse, the majority test with MyHeritage, so they don't receive yDNA and mtDNA assignments.

Dorkymon
07-21-2021, 12:41 PM
You can also see from your link that unde E-S7461 there is a person from Moldova (Riscani) and Romania (Galati). Maybe that's the subclade you would land under, should you test deeper.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y150909/

Bruzmi
07-21-2021, 01:39 PM
You can also see from your link that unde E-S7461 there is a person from Moldova (Riscani) and Romania (Galati). Maybe that's the subclade you would land under, should you test deeper.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y150909/

Is there any further information about the history of the lineages of the people from Riscani and Galati? It's interesting that under E-150909, there are two Greeks both from Arkadia, southern Greece.

Bane
07-21-2021, 02:26 PM
Is there any further information about the history of the lineages of the people from Riscani and Galati? It's interesting that under E-150909, there are two Greeks both from Arkadia, southern Greece.

Why is that interesting?

Dorkymon
07-21-2021, 02:53 PM
Is there any further information about the history of the lineages of the people from Riscani and Galati? It's interesting that under E-150909, there are two Greeks both from Arkadia, southern Greece.

You can ask them. I don't follow this haplogroup.

Scythoslav
07-21-2021, 03:06 PM
You can also see from your link that unde E-S7461 there is a person from Moldova (Riscani) and Romania (Galati). Maybe that's the subclade you would land under, should you test deeper.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y150909/

The Riscani one is me lol.

Scythoslav
07-21-2021, 03:19 PM
If I'm not mistaken there are actually quite a few Kurds that fall under E-S7461 as well?

Dorkymon
07-21-2021, 03:38 PM
The Riscani one is me lol.

Are you Daos from the other forum? If so, then I thought that your Moldovan side was from Drochia district.

Scythoslav
07-21-2021, 03:51 PM
Are you Daos from the other forum? If so, then I thought that your Moldovan side was from Drochia district.

Yeah. I thought so too but I verified with my dad. They aren’t that far away from each other.

Dorkymon
07-21-2021, 03:53 PM
Yeah. I thought so too but I verified with my dad. They aren’t that far away from each other.

Yes, they are close. The Polish and Ukrainian sides are not local, right? I have two Ukrainians from Riscani, but only as autosomal results.

Scythoslav
07-21-2021, 03:57 PM
Yes, they are close. The Polish and Ukrainian sides are not local, right? I have two Ukrainians from Riscani, but only as autosomal results.

No my dads mom moved to Moldova. She lived right on the border of Ukraine and Poland somewhere by Lviv. My mom also moved to Moldova from Zhytomyr. Only my male side is local Moldovan

Dorkymon
07-21-2021, 04:05 PM
No my dads mom moved to Moldova. She lived right on the border of Ukraine and Poland somewhere by Lviv. My mom also moved to Moldova from Zhytomyr. Only my male side is local Moldovan

Regarding your haplogroup, if you look at the current branches deeper from your position, it seems like there are two options right now:
1) English group
2) Greek (from Arkadia) and Azeri

Then outside of these subclades are your results, the Romanian's from Galati (Galati is on the border with Moldova btw) and those of another Greek (also from Arkadia). One Italian from Cagliari, heavily Greek region in Roman times, is negative for these two branches and is waiting to form a different subclade with someone.
There have been Greeks who have been around these parts of Moldova and Romania in medieval times.
Grecu (https://forebears.io/surnames/grecu), which means Greek, is currently the 60th most widespread surname here.

So maybe you and the Romanian guy will fall into the Greek cluster. Or maybe you will create another cluster only between the two of you, or alternatively maybe the both of you are going to fall on different sides. If you create a new subclade, then it will be interesting to see if the Italian is positive for it.
But something's telling me that you are likely to be negative for both and get stuck at E-Y150909*, because you will be the first person tested from a new branch that didn't get discovered yet. This will be similar to my situation, where I have actually tested for all existing subclades under I-PH908 and they returned as negative. So now I am stuck at I-PH908* and need BigY.

rafc
07-22-2021, 08:24 AM
S7461 in Moldova is not so surprising, it's much more common in the eastern-Balkans than the western. Also let's not forget that we have an adna FGC44169 (direct ancestor of S7461) from Moldova, so it was already there in antiquity.
Because S7461 is fairly old (before 2000BC) its subclades might have very divergent histories, but it's remarkable that many of them have Middle-Eastern or Arabian members. The reason for this is unknown.

Dorkymon
07-22-2021, 10:19 AM
S7461 in Moldova is not so surprising, it's much more common in the eastern-Balkans than the western. Also let's not forget that we have an adna FGC44169 (direct ancestor of S7461) from Moldova, so it was already there in antiquity.
Because S7461 is fairly old (before 2000BC) its subclades might have very divergent histories, but it's remarkable that many of them have Middle-Eastern or Arabian members. The reason for this is unknown.

There are Arabian members in many obscure for tue region clades. The reason for this is simple. They test like there's no tomorrow and are hence overrepresented.

Scythoslav
07-22-2021, 02:35 PM
S7461 in Moldova is not so surprising, it's much more common in the eastern-Balkans than the western. Also let's not forget that we have an adna FGC44169 (direct ancestor of S7461) from Moldova, so it was already there in antiquity.
Because S7461 is fairly old (before 2000BC) its subclades might have very divergent histories, but it's remarkable that many of them have Middle-Eastern or Arabian members. The reason for this is unknown.


The adna sample from Moldova is that Scythian sample correct?

Riverman
07-22-2021, 02:52 PM
There are Arabian members in many obscure for tue region clades. The reason for this is simple. They test like there's no tomorrow and are hence overrepresented.

While thats true, the age and diversity of some clades is also remarkable. Some seem to have spread with Hellenistic and Roman states, but others even earlier, most likely with Sea People and even more Iranians.
E-V13 clades in Kurds and Caucasians are noteworthy in this context.

rafc
07-22-2021, 03:53 PM
The adna sample from Moldova is that Scythian sample correct?

Yes, it was found in a Scythian burial ground, but autosomally he resembled an Iron Age Balkan person, a Thracian for example.

Riverman
07-22-2021, 06:01 PM
Yes, it was found in a Scythian burial ground, but autosomally he resembled an Iron Age Balkan person, a Thracian for example.

Daco-Thracians and Iranians were very close, had a lot of cultural exchange and at times the first were conquered by tribes of the latter. So we have to assume, latest since the beginning of the Iron Age, from Cimmerian times on, a fairly big what we might call backflow from the Daco-Thracian sphere. This is how E-V13 entered various Iranian people I'd say and was brought to the Caucasus, Near East, Central and even East Asia. East Asia only individual clades, but typically, those Chinese samples we had, came from Northern regions which also had more R1a from Iranian, Turkic and Mongol people. So its fairly safe to assume that E-V13 was present, at least as a small minority, in most Iranian people from the Iron Age on.

Scythoslav
07-28-2021, 12:33 AM
Got the full results back. Seems like they put me in the same clade as the Italian? My clade is more basal than the two Greeks and Romanian. They formed their own subclade. I was thinking I would be in the same subclade as the Romanian. This would make my other closest relative the Azerbaijani?


https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-S7461/

My sample is the MD Riscani.

leorcooper19
07-28-2021, 01:55 AM
Got the full results back. Seems like they put me in the same clade as the Italian? My clade is more basal than the two Greeks and Romanian. They formed their own subclade. I was thinking I would be in the same subclade as the Romanian. This would make my other closest relative the Azerbaijani?

Assuming you stay at E-Y150909* when the update is complete, you are actually equally related to everyone in E-Y150909. To be "basal" is really just to be lacking clademates; if the Romanian didn't have they Greeks, they'd be basal too etc. Everyone in E-Y150909 is equally descendant from your shared MRCA, some just have more recent common ancestors with samples on the tree than others. No one is more "basal" than anyone else.

altvred
07-28-2021, 03:49 AM
Assuming you stay at E-Y150909* when the update is complete, you are actually equally related to everyone in E-Y150909. To be "basal" is really just to be lacking clademates; if the Romanian didn't have they Greeks, they'd be basal too etc. Everyone in E-Y150909 is equally descendant from your shared MRCA, some just have more recent common ancestors with samples on the tree than others. No one is more "basal" than anyone else.

Yep, essentially having an asterisk above your terminal subclade means:

1. You are negative for all known downstream subclade defining SNPs
2. You don't share any of your private SNPs (SNPs that haven't been added to the Ytree yet) with other YFull customers.

As somebody who has been in this situation since 2019 (belonging to R-Y33* (https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/R-Y33)), I can say that it doesn't imply any special 'basalness' or antiquity of your subclade. Just one of or both of the following facts:

1. It's a relatively rare subclade in terms of demographic distribution

2. It's most common in regions where genealogical DNA testing is rare, mostly due to economic reasons, so it isn't properly represented. For example, people of Northwest-European descent (particularly from the British Isles) are overrepresented on genealogical DNA testing services like FTDNA/YFull due to its popularity in the US (where a huge chunk of the population is at least of partial 'British' descent). The opposite is true for South-Asia, Africa, Eastern Europe.

Huban
07-29-2021, 02:03 PM
Congrats on your result. E-Y150909a has two Greeks, I suspect these two are related to each other. Also a Bulgarian from Pella certainly closely clusters with these Greeks and Romanian, so I don't think this clade is Greek, even though I sued to when the Greek result first appeared. I believe Bulgarian has also ordered the BigY.

You don't seem to be related to them atm, so I guess you are of Getae origin. As it was pointed out upstream E-FGC44169* was found in a Moldovan Scythian in addition to R-Z2106, but these people were autosomally not Scythian,, similar to various other "Scythians" ranging from Hungary to Ukraine, who were mostly pre-Scythian locals as well. Moldovan Scythians show a significant degree of autosomal overlap with the female Early Iron Age MJ12 sample which belonged to the Babadag culture. As we know that all three Pshenichevo culture finds are V13 and that these were closely related obviously V13 clades have an old presence in the area.

Scythoslav
07-29-2021, 06:34 PM
Congrats on your result. E-Y150909a has two Greeks, I suspect these two are related to each other. Also a Bulgarian from Pella certainly closely clusters with these Greeks and Romanian, so I don't think this clade is Greek, even though I sued to when the Greek result first appeared. I believe Bulgarian has also ordered the BigY.

You don't seem to be related to them atm, so I guess you are of Getae origin. As it was pointed out upstream E-FGC44169* was found in a Moldovan Scythian in addition to R-Z2106, but these people were autosomally not Scythian,, similar to various other "Scythians" ranging from Hungary to Ukraine, who were mostly pre-Scythian locals as well. Moldovan Scythians show a significant degree of autosomal overlap with the female Early Iron Age MJ12 sample which belonged to the Babadag culture. As we know that all three Pshenichevo culture finds are V13 and that these were closely related obviously V13 clades have an old presence in the area.

If my line is of actual Daco-Getae origin I will be very happy. I spent my childhood reading about Dacians lol. We will see. It just sucks that testing is not very widespread in Moldova.

Scythoslav
07-29-2021, 06:54 PM
It also says I have 36 novel SNPs. Is that higher than usual?

Huban
07-30-2021, 01:55 AM
If my line is of actual Daco-Getae origin I will be very happy. I spent my childhood reading about Dacians lol. We will see. It just sucks that testing is not very widespread in Moldova.

It looks that way from the current data. Your result is the first E-S7461 tested from Moldova. Of other Moldovans at FTDNA there are E-Y160090 and E-Z16988* under Z5017 who both should be of similar Daco-Getae origin, first clusters with Ruthenians, Hungarians, Ukrainians, while the second doesn't have anyone closer than about 2800 years. Under Z5018 there is one E-A2192, and E-Z5018* (probably under E-Y145455). None of these have BigY/NGS, two have SNP packs.

Under E-BY183690>S24513 distant to the Irish there is one Romanian from Romanian Moldova around 3000 years away from a Western Ukrainian, but neither has uploaded to YFull. This clade also looks Getic. That E-A2192 on the other hand probably migrated from Bulgaria in Medieval as he has close matches there.

The sample from Romania/Moldova is very sub-par but it has been increasing recently.


It also says I have 36 novel SNPs. Is that higher than usual?

It is higher, though not all those SNPs will enter the age calculation. Its a confirmation of the YFull's live tree, where you stayed E-Y150909* while this Romanian shares 15 SNP's with Greeks which should mean their TMRCA is in 1000-1500 year range. I am curious how will Bulgarian fit in E-FT76098, he is clearly related to the Greek.

Aspar
07-30-2021, 07:17 PM
Congrats on your result. E-Y150909a has two Greeks, I suspect these two are related to each other. Also a Bulgarian from Pella certainly closely clusters with these Greeks and Romanian, so I don't think this clade is Greek, even though I sued to when the Greek result first appeared. I believe Bulgarian has also ordered the BigY.

You don't seem to be related to them atm, so I guess you are of Getae origin. As it was pointed out upstream E-FGC44169* was found in a Moldovan Scythian in addition to R-Z2106, but these people were autosomally not Scythian,, similar to various other "Scythians" ranging from Hungary to Ukraine, who were mostly pre-Scythian locals as well. Moldovan Scythians show a significant degree of autosomal overlap with the female Early Iron Age MJ12 sample which belonged to the Babadag culture. As we know that all three Pshenichevo culture finds are V13 and that these were closely related obviously V13 clades have an old presence in the area.

If you speak about the two Greeks on Yfull then that's the same person who just upgraded from Big 500 to 700. The Bulgarian is in our project and I haven't been notified he purchased Big Y so probably hasn't ordered it although he did say will order in future.
As it seems now, quite many S7461 in Romania, Moldova and Bulgaria who happen to have close matches in Macedonia and Peloponnese. As you said, it rather looks like the later are migrants from further north so no ancient Greek branch as of yet.
Even these two 'Greeks' in this branch (https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/E-Z17293/), as I happened to read a post from the uploader of these kits on Yfull's FB page, are of Slavic speaking background, both closely related to the uploader and one of them is clustering with a Bulgarian.

And I remember you happened to argue a lot about some Doric origins but it won't happened. Not because I disliked something as you said back than but it was obvious to me from multiple sources that E-V13 in Greece is mostly of Vlach, Albanian and Slavic origin.

Most of the Greek branches on Yfull clearly show that. Another (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-A18844/) Arcadian with Medieval matches from the Balkans. Clearly some migration to there. Probably Vlachs as I see some toponyms such as Vlachokerasia down there. I wasn't aware the Vlachs made it that far south but since that Kolokotronis I1 guy happened to have an close Aromanian match from Albania, it seems the Vlach contribution to Greece is significant even in Peloponnese.

Funny enough, I remember you advocated for Doric Greek origin of this Laconian Greek clade (https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/E-S2978/). Well this Laconian just happened to have a very close match on the tree who hasn't put details as of yet. Would be interesting to see where the sample in question comes from but for me it's clear E-V13 in Greece are mostly migrants.

Bane
07-30-2021, 09:21 PM
Funny enough, I remember you advocated for Doric Greek origin of this Laconian Greek clade (https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/E-S2978/). Well this Laconian just happened to have a very close match on the tree who hasn't put details as of yet. Would be interesting to see where the sample in question comes from but for me it's clear E-V13 in Greece are mostly migrants.


And how do you explain the Sardinian who is E-S2978* ?

Aspar
07-30-2021, 09:46 PM
And how do you explain the Sardinian who is E-S2978* ?

What does the Sardinian have to do with my post above?
I'm not really getting your point here, the Laconian forms a clade with a sample who hasn't put details as of yet, not the Sardinian. Nor the Sardinian alone gives credibility to the idea that this clade is of Doric Greek origin. There was no notable ancient Greek presence in Sardinia.

Bane
07-30-2021, 10:52 PM
What does the Sardinian have to do with my post above?
I'm not really getting your point here, the Laconian forms a clade with a sample who hasn't put details as of yet, not the Sardinian. Nor the Sardinian alone gives credibility to the idea that this clade is of Doric Greek origin. There was no notable ancient Greek presence in Sardinia.


Ok. so it seems you don't have an explanation. :)

Riverman
07-30-2021, 11:30 PM
And how do you explain the Sardinian who is E-S2978* ?

The Sardinian is from Cagliari and there was a huge scientific sample taken from there. For some reason the Cagliari male population seems to be very diverse and continental. I too have so far identified no single explanation or historical event for that pattern, but it seems that a lot of continental migrants came to the town, and this included a lot of E-V13 carriers, but also others, especially various subclades of R1b and others. Like if you check even for the Germanic R-U106, you get 4 hits from Cagliari:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-U106/

One case is curious because he has a direct match from Germany:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y36974/

And its migration period timing!

Sweden another one:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-S22294/

Whether any of this being connected, whether its about the Early Iron Age epansion of E-V13 or a later historical event, I can't tell for sure yet. But I wouldn't read too much into it at this point, because Cagliari being rather oversampled and so diverse. A good question is of course how different clades of E-V13 came to Italy as a whole and its different regions, probably at different times and with different people.

Scythoslav
07-31-2021, 01:12 AM
The Sardinian is from Cagliari and there was a huge scientific sample taken from there. For some reason the Cagliari male population seems to be very diverse and continental. I too have so far identified no single explanation or historical event for that pattern, but it seems that a lot of continental migrants came to the town, and this included a lot of E-V13 carriers, but also others, especially various subclades of R1b and others. Like if you check even for the Germanic R-U106, you get 4 hits from Cagliari:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-U106/

One case is curious because he has a direct match from Germany:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y36974/

And its migration period timing!

Sweden another one:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-S22294/

Whether any of this being connected, whether its about the Early Iron Age epansion of E-V13 or a later historical event, I can't tell for sure yet. But I wouldn't read too much into it at this point, because Cagliari being rather oversampled and so diverse. A good question is of course how different clades of E-V13 came to Italy as a whole and its different regions, probably at different times and with different people.

If I’m not mistaken Vandals held Cagliari, vandals also passed through the Balkans and could have picked up some
Getic clades from there. It would be interesting to know if E-V13 spread with Goths as well.

Riverman
07-31-2021, 11:24 AM
If I’m not mistaken Vandals held Cagliari, vandals also passed through the Balkans and could have picked up some
Getic clades from there. It would be interesting to know if E-V13 spread with Goths as well.

Yes it did, we know Goths had some E-V13 carriers, we just don't know for sure where exactly they picked them up, probably not just at one place. And its not just Getic clades, but generally Urnfield related cultural groups of Central and Eastern Central Europe from Poland, Bohemia-Moravia, Slovakia, Pannonia etc. which they seem to have picked up. I too think that a part of the variation in Cagliari came with the Vandals, but how much we don't know. There are still a lot of unknowns other than that E-V13 was fairly widespread in the Iron Age in CEE and reached Celts occasionally. However, it is unlikely that most of the E-V13 came to Cagliari with the Vandals, because it seems quite basal in the associated clades and probably came in earlier with another group of people - for the most part. But we can't know right now.

Aspar
07-31-2021, 12:21 PM
Ok. so it seems you don't have an explanation. :)

There is no sense in what you've written.
Make yourself more clear, what's up with the Sardinian?
How I'm supposed to give you an explanation if I have no idea why you are bringing that Sardinian sample in the first place?

Bane
07-31-2021, 03:10 PM
There is no sense in what you've written.
Make yourself more clear, what's up with the Sardinian?
How I'm supposed to give you an explanation if I have no idea why you are bringing that Sardinian sample in the first place?


In my opinion hypothesis which deals with a single element of a "big picture" is not a sound hypothesis. That is how I see things "in genere".
If I correctly understood you, you suggest vast majority of todays E-V13 clade in Greece was not present in Greece before common era? Correct me if I'm wrong.
This conclusion of yours is not taking all the information we have even when we talk about single quite deep clade - in this case E-S2978. And there are of course many more E-V13 clades in Greece.
I'm just saying - I'm not going to follow your strong stance on E-V13 in Greece if you don't provide more answers so that we see the "big picture".

Aspar
07-31-2021, 05:09 PM
In my opinion hypothesis which deals with a single element of a "big picture" is not a sound hypothesis. That is how I see things "in genere".
If I correctly understood you, you suggest vast majority of todays E-V13 clade in Greece was not present in Greece before common era? Correct me if I'm wrong.
This conclusion of yours is not taking all the information we have even when we talk about single quite deep clade - in this case E-S2978. And there are of course many more E-V13 clades in Greece.
I'm just saying - I'm not going to follow your strong stance on E-V13 in Greece if you don't provide more answers so that we see the "big picture".

And what information do we have so far?
So far, there is ZERO E-V13 among the Minoans, the MBA and Classical Greeks.
It's enough just to see the Y tree. Most of the E-V13 subclades in Greece have close cousins further north, connections that is mostly Medieval.
Of course, you can always argue that what we have so far is not enough to make a final conclusion and I agree with that. But do you know or have anything better?

Riverman
07-31-2021, 08:36 PM
And what information do we have so far?
So far, there is ZERO E-V13 among the Minoans, the MBA and Classical Greeks.
It's enough just to see the Y tree. Most of the E-V13 subclades in Greece have close cousins further north, connections that is mostly Medieval.
Of course, you can always argue that what we have so far is not enough to make a final conclusion and I agree with that. But do you know or have anything better?

I wonder about the E-V13 clades on the Greek islands all the way down to Crete. I thought its possible that most of the spread started with the Iron Age, with a lot coming down from Thrace in the classical period too, but I assumed some spread with Dorians as well and not the majority being from post-Antiquity.
Would you say even what we have from the Greek islands so far looks more like being from more recent migrants of Vlach, Albanian and Slavic origin?
There are really not that many Greeks on YFULL afaik.

leorcooper19
07-31-2021, 09:06 PM
I wonder about the E-V13 clades on the Greek islands all the way down to Crete. I thought its possible that most of the spread started with the Iron Age, with a lot coming down from Thrace in the classical period too, but I assumed some spread with Dorians as well and not the majority being from post-Antiquity.
Would you say even what we have from the Greek islands so far looks more like being from more recent migrants of Vlach, Albanian and Slavic origin?
There are really not that many Greeks on YFULL afaik.

Reading Aspar's post above this morning, I thought the same thing but with Sicily. E-V13 is over 8.5% there; are we to assume it's entirely of BA continuity on the island or migration from Italy or the Balkans? Not to mention E-V13 is incredibly diverse in Sicily, with at least over 70 distinct branches. (Source: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?23778-Sicily-Y-Dna)

I'd be really surprised if 0 of those branches were ultimately Greek, considering how Greek-derived Sicily is.

Aspar
07-31-2021, 09:58 PM
I wonder about the E-V13 clades on the Greek islands all the way down to Crete. I thought its possible that most of the spread started with the Iron Age, with a lot coming down from Thrace in the classical period too, but I assumed some spread with Dorians as well and not the majority being from post-Antiquity.
Would you say even what we have from the Greek islands so far looks more like being from more recent migrants of Vlach, Albanian and Slavic origin?
There are really not that many Greeks on YFULL afaik.

Not all of course. Probably this branch (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y159845/) have nothing to do with more recent migrations. As for other Islanders, the Greeks unfortunately don't test much. What I remember from some time ago in the FTDNA projects, there was a Cretan(can't remember what clade of E-V13 exactly ATM) forming a clade with a Macedonian, Bulgarian and a Hungarian. Probably Huban knows more about this branch and could be able to tell you TMRCA for example.

Nevertheless, with the new paper about the IA Daunians, the agony in the seek for an ancient E-V13 continues. From still unofficial informations, we know E-V13 should be strong in Thrace and we also have that IA Scythian from Moldova which cements E-V13 as strongly Eastern Balkan group. I firmly believe E-V13 was especially strong in the Danubian provincials of the Roman Empire. After the collapse of the Danube limes this mostly Romanized population rich in E-V13 fled to other regions in the Empire, mostly Constantinople, the coastal cities, the Greek islands and South Italy. This was the case as was described in the Miracles of St.Demetrius.

Huban
07-31-2021, 11:36 PM
there was a Cretan(can't remember what clade of E-V13 exactly ATM) forming a clade with a Macedonian, Bulgarian and a Hungarian. Probably Huban knows more about this branch and could be able to tell you TMRCA for example.

There is a branch at the FTDNA under E-FGC33614: E-A10158, most likely Bulgarian from a study at YFull belongs to it as no A10158 have uploaded to YFull. E-A10158 has one more SNP, one of its clades is E-BY77647, two more parallel clades in Western Europe. This level has 5 SNPs.

Branches into
E-Y60987 Macedonian and Bulgarian sharing 19 SNPs. Also based on distinct STRs to this branch belong 3 Romanians from scientific papers and one Bulgarian.
E-BY57649 Greek from Crete and Hungarian share just 1 SNP.

At FTDNA SNP is worth 80-100 years. So I guess E-A10158 has TMRCA of 2900 ybp, E-BY77647 about 2400-2500 ybp, Macedonian and Bulgarian probably around 1000 ybp, while Cretan and Hungarian are around 2300-2400 years apart..

There are 14 E-A10158 BigY results, nobody has uploaded to YFull. Maybe you can ask this Macedonian and Bulgarian to do so, to determine relation with this Bulgarian who is most likely of that branch, though I don't know his SNPs.



Nevertheless, with the new paper about the IA Daunians, the agony in the seek for an ancient E-V13 continues.

Agony?? This is cause to celebrate not agonize. :party: Expectation that Thracians should make up significant percentage of Illyrians is akin to expecting that Scythians should be mostly R-U106, or that Italics carried R-L1029.. :) Expansive haplogroups with high degree of demographic explosion tend to have a pretty exclusive meta-ethnic affiliation.. There are obviously strong borders between R-Z93 and R-Z280, between R-U106 and R-U152..

This coincides with me finding some information about the Albanoi which indicates that in the time of Trajan or Hadrian these people, whatever they were or regardless of them being Illyrian tribe in 2nd century BC, Illyrian they were not.. :)

Riverman
08-01-2021, 12:47 AM
Reading Aspar's post above this morning, I thought the same thing but with Sicily. E-V13 is over 8.5% there; are we to assume it's entirely of BA continuity on the island or migration from Italy or the Balkans?

There is no Bronze Age continuity for E-V13 anywhere but in their homeland, because most of their expansion dates to the very Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age. So no, it can't be Bronze Age continuity on the island of Sicily. I would go as far as to say "no way" for this one. So it had to come in later, most likely with different people at different times. But the idea of large scale resettlement at the end of the Roman Empire gains some credibility I guess, even though it surely won't explain all or even the majority.


I'd be really surprised if 0 of those branches were ultimately Greek, considering how Greek-derived Sicily is.


To me that's another "no way", because even if it was primarily Daco-Thracians, those influences did reach Greece and the Greeks before or at the time of some of the colonies in Southern Italy. And if we are to assume that there was real Greek influence of significance on Sicily, at least some E-V13 should have taken that way.

Aspar
08-01-2021, 08:31 AM
There are 14 E-A10158 BigY results, nobody has uploaded to YFull. Maybe you can ask this Macedonian and Bulgarian to do so, to determine relation with this Bulgarian who is most likely of that branch, though I don't know his SNPs.

None of them is in the project I administer. They are members of the Bulgarian DNA Project however.

vasil
08-01-2021, 08:57 AM
Not all of course. Probably this branch (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y159845/) have nothing to do with more recent migrations.

SRS8752742 from the Turkish study who makes a branch with the Greeks is in gedmatch looks like a Pomak to me.
KG5648968
# Population Percent
1 Baltic 24.98
2 East_Med 18.67
3 West_Asian 18.55
4 North_Atlantic 18.33
5 West_Med 14.15
6 Red_Sea 1.56
7 South_Asian 1.32
8 East_Asian 1.15
9 Amerindian 1.08
10 Oceanian 0.21

# Population (source) Distance
1 Bulgarian 7.58
2 Romanian 8.75
3 Serbian 11.73
4 Greek_Thessaly 12.86
5 Moldavian 13.98
6 Croatian 17.4
7 Central_Greek 17.75

Aspar
08-01-2021, 11:36 AM
SRS8752742 from the Turkish study who makes a branch with the Greeks is in gedmatch looks like a Pomak to me.
KG5648968
# Population Percent
1 Baltic 24.98
2 East_Med 18.67
3 West_Asian 18.55
4 North_Atlantic 18.33
5 West_Med 14.15
6 Red_Sea 1.56
7 South_Asian 1.32
8 East_Asian 1.15
9 Amerindian 1.08
10 Oceanian 0.21

# Population (source) Distance
1 Bulgarian 7.58
2 Romanian 8.75
3 Serbian 11.73
4 Greek_Thessaly 12.86
5 Moldavian 13.98
6 Croatian 17.4
7 Central_Greek 17.75

Great find...

Distance to: SRS8752742
6.45491286 Turk_Deliorman
6.93196942 Pomak_Greece
7.75075480 Moldova_South_Gagauzia
7.75677124 Pomak_Bulgaria
7.79853191 Bulgaria_Southeastern
7.91015803 Bulgaria_Northeastern
8.30341496 Bulgaria_Northcentral
8.80299381 Bulgaria_average
8.87441829 Romania_Muntenia
8.87454788 Bulgaria_Southcentral
9.24272146 Romania_Wallachia
9.25572796 Turk_Trakya
9.29974731 Romania_Dobruja
9.36687248 Bulgaria_Southwestern
9.91611315 Romania_Banat
10.01798882 Bulgaria_Northwestern
10.10741807 Moldova_South
10.19111378 Turk_Makedonya
10.24606754 Romania_Oltenia
10.27250700 Romania_average
10.67882952 Greek_Northern-Thrace
10.95135608 Vlach(Aromanian)_average
10.97154957 Romania_Moldavia_South
11.09476002 Macedonian_North
11.11337033 Romania_Transylvania

His distances are still pretty high though. Too much West Asian to be a pure Pomak and too little Siberian and East Asian to be a pure Balkan Turk. The great distances are probably caused because this person is a third or forth generation of Balkan Muslims in Turkey that mixed with native Turks.
His 2way however:

Distance to: SRS8752742
1.22811605 69.20% Bosniak_Bosnia + 30.80% Turk_East_Black_Sea
1.51792112 73.20% Bosniak + 26.80% Turk_Meskhetian
1.62560301 70.80% Bosniak_Bosnia + 29.20% Laz
1.73388123 74.00% Bosniak + 26.00% Laz
1.77707795 39.00% Greek_Trabzon + 61.00% Ukrainian_Galicia
1.79783062 69.20% Bosniak_Bosnia + 30.80% Greek_Caucasus
1.80406759 35.40% Turk_East_Black_Sea + 64.60% Ukrainian_Carpathian
1.80733838 44.20% Greek_Trabzon + 55.80% Silesian
1.84334002 81.60% Pomak_Bulgaria + 18.40% Tabassaran
1.84804568 16.80% Lak + 83.20% Pomak_Bulgaria
1.86077951 68.80% Croat_East + 31.20% Turk_East_Black_Sea
1.87452092 31.40% Armenian_East + 68.60% Bosniak_Bosnia
1.88244600 35.40% Greek_Caucasus + 64.60% Ukrainian_Carpathian
1.90252175 16.40% Dargin + 83.60% Pomak_Bulgaria
1.90358462 76.00% Moldova_average + 24.00% Turk_Meskhetian
1.94330083 36.20% Greek_Trabzon + 63.80% Ukrainian_Carpathian
1.95676340 17.00% Avar + 83.00% Pomak_Bulgaria
1.96836193 43.20% Greek_Caucasus + 56.80% Silesian
1.98554535 75.80% Moldova_Centre + 24.20% Turk_Meskhetian
2.02316404 18.20% Lezgin + 81.80% Pomak_Bulgaria
2.02583197 38.20% Greek_Caucasus + 61.80% Ukrainian_Galicia
2.02894245 14.80% Dargin + 85.20% Pomak_Greece
2.03584947 23.60% Laz + 76.40% Moldova_Centre
2.06483392 23.40% Laz + 76.60% Moldova_average
2.08084952 29.00% Armenian_East + 71.00% Moldova_North

His native Turkish ancestry is exclusively East Black Sea and the best Balkan proxy is Bosniak. You can see Pomak is not the best proxy because it requires something Caucasian such as Darkin, Lak or Tabassaran to model this person before anything Turkish. His y-dna is also most diverse in the West Balkans. This is an interesting finding nevertheless...

CyrylBojarski
08-05-2021, 09:52 AM
Great find...

...

Interestingly my parent 1/4 Christian Bulgarian part has the same percentage of Caucasian/West Asian admixture

Target: Cyryl_mom_scaled
Distance: 2.6107% / 0.02610729 | R3P
75.2 Ukrainian
17.6 Macedonian
7.2 Turkish_East

If this guy is Pomak it would be interesting to know from which region his ancestors are from, maybe we do not really know everything about regional differences in Bulgaria, however as you mentioned, it is also possible he is mixed Bosniak.

I have Gedmatch results of one Muslim Bulgarian/Balkan Turk and his results are very similar to this sample

Distance to: X
2.99901651 Bulgarian_Thrace
3.63646807 Turk_Makedonya
4.09764567 Greek_Thessaloniki
5.20142288 Greek_Thrace
5.28665301 Greek_Thessaly
5.48382166 Greek_Peloponnese
6.16730898 Bulgarian_East
6.31177471 Albanian
6.41751510 Greek_Macedonia
6.49062401 Moldovan_Gagauz
6.65689117 Turk_Trakya
6.95827565 Albanian_Kosovo
7.16782394 Turk_Deliorman
7.27626965 Macedonian_South
7.29021262 Greek_Central
7.60311778 Macedonian_Northeast&Skopje
7.62603436 Pomak_Greece
7.73401577 Greek_Athens
7.88811131 Macedonian_Vardar
8.67640479 Bulgarian_Central
8.71298456 Macedonian_Polog
8.73643520 Macedonian_East
9.08855324 Pomak_Bulgaria
9.36381333 Greek_Foca
9.73389439 Bulgarian_West

Distance to: X
1.98312407 21.00% Circassian + 79.00% Macedonian_South
1.99878155 85.20% Greek_Macedonia + 14.80% Turk_East_Black_Sea
2.00476869 82.60% Macedonian_South + 17.40% Ossetian_South
2.03462661 85.60% Bulgarian_East + 14.40% Turk_East_Black_Sea
2.04768018 20.80% Balkar + 79.20% Macedonian_South
2.04895226 80.20% Macedonian_Northeast&Skopje + 19.80% Turk_East
2.04996707 80.80% Macedonian_South + 19.20% Ossetian
2.06310168 86.00% Bulgarian_East + 14.00% Greek_Pontus
2.09471790 20.20% Karachay + 79.80% Macedonian_South
2.10336146 82.60% Macedonian_Northeast&Skopje + 17.40% Turk_Ahiska
2.10372354 85.40% Greek_Macedonia + 14.60% Greek_Pontus
2.12042388 19.80% Adyghe + 80.20% Macedonian_South
2.14248338 21.20% Abazin + 78.80% Macedonian_South
2.15966057 24.20% Greek_Cappadocia + 75.80% Pomak_Bulgaria
2.16816777 23.80% Greek_Pontus + 76.20% Romanian
2.17577338 86.20% Greek_Macedonia + 13.80% Hemshin
2.18014360 27.20% Greek_Cappadocia + 72.80% Moldovan_South
2.18090281 22.40% Greek_Pontus + 77.60% Moldovan_South
2.18398336 80.80% Bulgarian_Central + 19.20% Greek_Pontus
2.18707551 82.80% Macedonian_Northeast&Skopje + 17.20% Turk_East_Black_Sea
2.19211402 86.40% Greek_Macedonia + 13.60% Laz
2.19499624 16.00% Abkhazian + 84.00% Macedonian_South
2.19566175 77.40% Macedonian_Northeast&Skopje + 22.60% Turk_Central_East
2.19568055 11.20% Dargin_Kaitag + 88.80% Greek_Thessaloniki
2.20658336 82.80% Bulgarian_East + 17.20% Greek_Cappadocia

Interesting is, that he has no Turkic admixture, but has Q haplogroup
https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-L715/

Hard to explain this admix historically though, I doubt it comes from Turks, it would give him Siberian percentage

eastara
08-05-2021, 11:33 AM
The Q L715 is obviously from the Caucasian branch and the admixture is most probably Circassian/ BalkanTurk. There were a large number of Caucasian Muslims settled in Bulgaria in 1850s with population exchange with Russia, however almost all left after Bulgaria became independent.

Kaspias
08-05-2021, 12:11 PM
The Q L715 is obviously from the Caucasian branch and the admixture is most probably Circassian/ BalkanTurk. There were a large number of Caucasian Muslims settled in Bulgaria in 1850s with population exchange with Russia, however almost all left after Bulgaria became independent.

I have to disagree,

1- Circassian community is well represented in Gedmatch and Circassians usually match with each other in the way that we can even find their specific tribes by looking at their matches. However, that sample has no Circassian matches in the first 500. Neither are any other Caucasian matches.
2- His results are not isolated enough to make me think that he has Caucasian ancestry, what we see is pretty much Macedonian Turkish average actually.
3- Other relevant matches show a potential Macedonian(regional) Turkish or Deliorman Turkish origin. A mix of Deliorman Turkish and Albanian also should be in mind.

CyrylBojarski
08-05-2021, 01:19 PM
I have to disagree,

1- Circassian community is well represented in Gedmatch and Circassians usually match with each other in the way that we can even find their specific tribes by looking at their matches. However, that sample has no Circassian matches in the first 500. Neither are any other Caucasian matches.
2- His results are not isolated enough to make me think that he has Caucasian ancestry, what we see is pretty much Macedonian Turkish average actually.
3- Other relevant matches show a potential Macedonian(regional) Turkish or Deliorman Turkish origin. A mix of Deliorman Turkish and Albanian also should be in mind.

What about Orthodox Bulgarians, who also have this kind of admixture? Also, if he is Macedonian Turkish why doesn't he score any Central Asian populations instead?

Kaspias
08-05-2021, 02:12 PM
What about Orthodox Bulgarians, who also have this kind of admixture? Also, if he is Macedonian Turkish why doesn't he score any Central Asian populations instead?

Orthodox Bulgarians have no role in that case, genetic similarity does not necessarily mean you descend from them. if he would be a Pomak he would match with other Pomaks as well, but he only matches with Turks and Bulgarians from Northeast Bulgaria. As integration of Orthodox NE Bulgarians into Turkish society have never experienced, the connection is likely with Turkish ancestor from the region. Then thinking about it, you can get such a result when mix an Albanian with a Deliorman Turkish, simultaneously, there are also few Albanians in his match list. So this explains one of my recommendations.

However, the results itself is in the range of Macedonian Turks and he actually does score 1.79% East Eurasian, which is small but not that off when taking into account Macedonian Turkish average is around 3% already. And he does match with some Macedonian Turks as well. When considering the fact that he has got Albanian matches, I would expect even if the ancestor is Turkish, it is from Western parts of North Macedonia, and my theory is being confirmed by he is matching with a Turkish from Ohrid 16cM. (Turk_Macedonia_38 in the image)

My eventual recommendation, in this case, he might be a mix of Turkish from the Southwest part of North Macedonia and Turkish from Northeast Bulgaria. His X-DNA list reveals that Northeast Bulgarian ancestry comes from his maternal side, so the haplogroup might have originated from the region Macedonia. As an alternative, he might be predominantly Macedonian Turkish with having some distant Northeastern Bulgarian Turkish and/or Albanian.

Here compare SRS8752695 vs other Macedonian Turks:

https://i.ibb.co/SfsDQ1G/makedonyal-lar.png

eastara
08-05-2021, 02:31 PM
Kaspias, of course you know better about the Turks. I have also a theory that the European in most North East Bulgarian Turks comes from
Ukrainian/Russian and not Bulgarian admixture. I can see their relatives in the Bulgarian project and many have very close from Ukraine, etc. This definitely shows Tartar connection. Some Rhodope Turks look like Bulgarians, but probably just recently Turkified Pomaks. They have the most Bulgarian relatives. I suppose in Macedonia they mixed more with Albanians as both were Muslims.

Kaspias
08-05-2021, 02:57 PM
Kaspias, of course you know better about the Turks. I have also a theory that the European in most North East Bulgarian Turks comes from
Ukrainian/Russian and not Bulgarian admixture. I can see their relatives in the Bulgarian project and many have very close from Ukraine, etc. This definitely shows Tartar connection. Some Rhodope Turks look like Bulgarians, but probably just recently Turkified Pomaks. They have the most Bulgarian relatives. I suppose in Macedonia they mixed more with Albanians as both were Muslims.

Well yeah, there is definitely a role of Tatars in NE Bulgaria. As they were already mixed with the previous settlers of the region around the Crimea, they also brought these native admixtures to the Balkans when they arrived and integrated into Balkan Turks. I have recently explored the weight of Oghuz vs Tatar admixtures within the isolated Turkic admixture of Balkan Turks, and it show up as up to 40% Tatar in the Bulgarian Dobruja, around 20-25% in few kilometers South, Deliorman - Ludogorie. So some matches might be explained with it. Besides, some elevated European scores we see in the region also might be connected with what Tatars brought.

But the actual reason why Northeastern Turks are not matching with Bulgarians is the Eastern Bulgar population were almost disappeared and almost all are converted into Balkan Turks, so their Christian relatives from the past should have very limited descendants who still remained as Christian and Bulgarian today. Despite the Tatar influence both in terms of "native" and the Turkic admixtures, the dominant profile observed in averages results is still contemporary Bulgarian + Oghuz(ancient MA2196-like or contemporary Turkmen-like)

Turks and Albanians in Macedonia are actually very rarely mixed as both communities were bearing a tribal point of view. However, Turks are greatly mixed with Torbeshis, who frequently were mixed with Albanians and almost has got a straightforward Albanian profile today. So there should be an indirect interaction in the region in that regard.

Aspar
08-06-2021, 01:05 PM
...

Can you show me his K13?

If he had the same amount of West Asian he for sure wasn't a pure Bulgarian as I haven't seen any Bulgarian with that much West Asian.
Like some users here said, there might be a Turkish admixture along the line...