PDA

View Full Version : Y-DNA Haplogroup H2-P96 and down



Buur
07-21-2021, 10:04 PM
Can we start a thread of LIVING H2-P96 persons? There are no that many, I guess.
We know so little about this Haplogroup, or Sub-haplogroup, that every bit of information counts. I am not talking about ANCIENT samples.

Of interest would be ideas about geographic distribution, country of ancestral origin, relationship to other DNA Haplogroups, how to locate H2-P96, any trends in development and spread of P-96.
I myself am some ten levels down the line from P96 at SK117; I am Dutch, country of origin: The Netherlands. Tested by FTDNA at Big Y700 level.

Tjsmcr
05-01-2022, 07:04 PM
Hi I'm also H2-P96. To be more precise, I'm H-BY37186. I'm in England. Tim

Paul333
05-02-2022, 12:15 AM
In my opinion I dont think there's enough YH2 P96, people around, we are only a few, and the amount of information is very difficult to find, the small amounts we come across, or can access, is not enough to keep it going if it happens, most of us are separated by Hundreds of years, if not many thousands, so it will be difficult to keep the interest alive at the present time,I believe.

venustas
05-02-2022, 02:16 AM
I have R1a and I am very interested in this line because of how common it was in ancients from the paleolithic in France and even until the time of Christ. I see some countries with F* in the middle East Southern Europe and north Africa and I wonder if some of it is actually H2-P96. With the rich history of this line and how it seemed to become rare against all odds I believe many people without this line are very interested in the origin.

Paul333
05-02-2022, 12:34 PM
I have R1a and I am very interested in this line because of how common it was in ancients from the paleolithic in France and even until the time of Christ. I see some countries with F* in the middle East Southern Europe and north Africa and I wonder if some of it is actually H2-P96. With the rich history of this line and how it seemed to become rare against all odds I believe many people without this line are very interested in the origin.

I think every person originated from some form of Y Haplogroup F, on the Journey out of Africa, and no doubt there is still YH2 P96, being miss identified.

The problem I see at present, is with so few Living YH2 P96, people, finding information for disscusion,is a very slow, difficult, and confusing process,at the present time, and to find any developments, or enough information to keep interests alive is not there. A lot of what is there is now outdated.

If you look at the Y Haplogroup forum listings on here, Y Haplogroup H is rarely used, especially when it comes to Y H2 P96, there is very little use by living Y H2 people,and I cannot see any benefit or difference,at this time of adding a similar forum.

If you look at my own country England, there is only 1 or 2 others I know of living here on the Y Full H Tree today, and even these are separated by a split of around 6 thousand years, as I understand it, so without using ancient samples,it will be pointless, especially looking for any countries of origin.

Paul333
05-02-2022, 12:40 PM
Double Post

peloponnesian
05-04-2022, 11:44 AM
Hello!

1) I think it's more useful to think of these rare haplogroups in terms of branches rather than comparing them with other macro-haplogroups. H is very rare in Europeans compared to macro-haplogroups I2 or G2a but if you check specific branches with similar-ish TMRCAs (especially ones that have popped up in the aDNA record), H-P96 is comparable with clades like this (https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-PF3177/) or this (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L596/), or even another "rare child" such as this (https://www.yfull.com/tree/C-V86/). I'm mentioning "Old European" lineages specifically, because we have a fairly good historical idea of how R1b, R1a or I2din lines spread throughout Europe.

2) Most of Southeast Europe, Near East, North Africa are very undersampled on FTDNA & Yfull. With more samples, I'm quite sure that many of the "ultra-rare" haplogroups would be found in greater frequencies in those areas and some migration patterns and phylogenies would be more easily resolved.

vettor
05-04-2022, 05:47 PM
Hello!

1) I think it's more useful to think of these rare haplogroups in terms of branches rather than comparing them with other macro-haplogroups. H is very rare in Europeans compared to macro-haplogroups I2 or G2a but if you check specific branches with similar-ish TMRCAs (especially ones that have popped up in the aDNA record), H-P96 is comparable with clades like this (https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-PF3177/) or this (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L596/), or even another "rare child" such as this (https://www.yfull.com/tree/C-V86/). I'm mentioning "Old European" lineages specifically, because we have a fairly good historical idea of how R1b, R1a or I2din lines spread throughout Europe.

2) Most of Southeast Europe, Near East, North Africa are very undersampled on FTDNA & Yfull. With more samples, I'm quite sure that many of the "ultra-rare" haplogroups would be found in greater frequencies in those areas and some migration patterns and phylogenies would be more easily resolved.

is this query part of the 2021 paper
Using Y-chromosome capture enrichment to resolve haplogroup H2 shows new evidence for a two-path Neolithic expansion to Western Europe

Rohrlach, A.B., Papac,

where ....With the arrival of Steppe-related ancestry ~ 5 kya, incoming YHGs such as R1a and R1b would largely replace many of the older, “Neolithic” YHGs, such as G2, T1a, and H219,samples in Karsdorf, Derenburg and Halberstadt

considering that T ydna made up 22% of the found samples of which there was 3 samples

Paul333
05-07-2022, 11:30 PM
Hello!

1) I think it's more useful to think of these rare haplogroups in terms of branches rather than comparing them with other macro-haplogroups. H is very rare in Europeans compared to macro-haplogroups I2 or G2a but if you check specific branches with similar-ish TMRCAs (especially ones that have popped up in the aDNA record), H-P96 is comparable with clades like this (https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-PF3177/) or this (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L596/), or even another "rare child" such as this (https://www.yfull.com/tree/C-V86/). I'm mentioning "Old European" lineages specifically, because we have a fairly good historical idea of how R1b, R1a or I2din lines spread throughout Europe.

2) Most of Southeast Europe, Near East, North Africa are very undersampled on FTDNA & Yfull. With more samples, I'm quite sure that many of the "ultra-rare" haplogroups would be found in greater frequencies in those areas and some migration patterns and phylogenies would be more easily resolved.

I dont think you can compare the Y H2 clade of P96, with the substantial amounts of Haplogroup G & I clades, P96 is extremely rare in Europe. In England on the Y Full tree there are only 3 public references for England today. I am one of these, and the other that matches me is from America,not living today in England, and he is ancestral to England from America during the 1700's, listing England as his earliest ancestor only. The other I do not know, but he may also be ancesteral to England. I know only one other confirmed Living in England today under GBR on the public Y Full Tree, H P96, which leaves myself, and only 1 other 'confirmed as living in England today ', and we are 'separated from a common ancester' by some 6,000 years, so that is petty rare.

venustas
05-08-2022, 12:06 AM
I dont think you can compare the Y H2 clade of P96, with the substantial amounts of Haplogroup G & I clades, P96 is extremely rare in Europe. In England on the Y Full tree there are only 3 public references for England today. I am one of these, and the other that matches me is from America,not living today in England, and he is ancestral to England from America during the 1700's, listing England as his earliest ancestor only. The other I do not know, but he may also be ancesteral to England. I know only one other confirmed Living in England today under GBR on the public Y Full Tree, H P96, which leaves myself, and only 1 other 'confirmed as living in England today ', and we are 'separated from a common ancester' by some 6,000 years, so that is petty rare.
Perhaps this will help from this results it seems that most men with the surname Boyett have H2-P96 y-dna but only if it's spelt Boyett . All those guys with F-M89 are actually H-P96 on that project trust me.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/boyette?iframe=yresults

Paul333
05-08-2022, 02:29 PM
The topic was for the 'Living Y H2 P96'. How can you prove a person had Y H2 P96 in the 1700s without any evidence, you cannot, so most Y F89, ( a very common Haplogroup, 90% descend from it via 'GHIJK' ) on that site may not be Y H2 P96, they are only assumed to be, they were placed there by assumption only.

venustas
05-08-2022, 10:42 PM
The topic was for the 'Living Y H2 P96'. How can you prove a person had Y H2 P96 in the 1700s without any evidence, you cannot, so most Y F89, ( a very common Haplogroup, 90% descend from it via 'GHIJK' ) on that site may not be Y H2 P96, they are only assumed to be, they were placed there by assumption only.
Because they have the exact same strs as confirmed H-P96.
BOYETT b ca 1744/45 Dobbs Co., NC England F-M89 14 22 14 10 12-13 11 13 13 13 11 30
74093 Isaac Boyett b. 1773 NC d. 1840 NC Unknown Origin F-M89 14 22 14 10 12-13 11 13 13 13 11 30
388792 Thomas Boyt United States H-FTA52258 14 22 14 10 12-13 11 13 13 13 11 30 17 8-9 10 11 23 15 19 30 11-12-15-15 10 10 17-17 15 13 17 17 36-38 11 10 11 10 15-16 8 11 10 8 11 10 12 20-20 16 11 12 12 16 8 14 27 20 11 14 11 13 11 11 12 12 31 17 8 18 12 24 27 19 13 11 13 12 12 9 13 11 10 10 11 31 11 12 22 15 11 10 18 15 21 12 23 15 12 15 26 12 24 17 12 15 15 9 11 11
102538 Joseph Josiah Boyett b. 25 Dec 1795 NC Unknown Origin H-P96 14 22 14 10 12-13 11 13 13 13 11 30 17

Paul333
05-09-2022, 11:14 AM
How did you actually test the bodies for 'their' own 'confirmed' STR,s then ????. As most on that survey are historic, being long deceased, dating back to 17/18/19 centuries, and cannot possibly be alive for testing today, trust me.

You also stated earlier that only men with mostly the surname spelt 'Boyett' seem to be Y H2 P96, but you then use a 'Thomas Boyt',(above)which according to your post earlier, cannot be Y H2 P96, being based on your own spelling rules ????.

All those guys with F-M89 listed on that project, also cannot possibly be confirmed as Y H2 P96, either.

venustas
05-11-2022, 11:55 PM
How did you actually test the bodies for 'their' own 'confirmed' STR,s then ????. As most on that survey are historic, being long deceased, dating back to 17/18/19 centuries, and cannot possibly be alive for testing today, trust me.

You also stated earlier that only men with mostly the surname spelt 'Boyett' seem to be Y H2 P96, but you then use a 'Thomas Boyt',(above)which according to your post earlier, cannot be Y H2 P96, being based on your own spelling rules ????.

All those guys with F-M89 listed on that project, also cannot possibly be confirmed as Y H2 P96, either.

Hello they have the exact same match as confirmed H2-P96 meaning all of the F's are low resolution and since they have an exact str match to H2-P96 this is what they obviously are. Because H2 is rare it is more likely to not show up in low resolution studies and because basically all F in Europe afaik is GHIJK that means F* doesn't exist in Europe and most is H2 espically when the stars are an exact match. I knew I had R1a from my strs before snp tested and than snps verified it so while strs are not perfect if it's the same last name and a perfect match it is the same haplogroup obviously. Concerning the Boyett I thought I was obvious I was being general and of course some Boyt are also H2 however I was just making an observation in that it seems more common in Boyett than Boyt but I don't see any reasons to nit pick. In any case it is clear that the F-M89 men on that project are indeed H2-P96 du to an exact str match with a H2-P96 and low resolution is not hy they are labeled F.

venustas
05-11-2022, 11:59 PM
Hello they have the exact same match as confirmed H2-P96 meaning all of the F's are low resolution and since they have an exact str match to H2-P96 this is what they obviously are. Because H2 is rare it is more likely to not show up in low resolution studies and because basically all F in Europe afaik is GHIJK that means F* doesn't exist in Europe and most is H2 espically when the stars are an exact match. I knew I had R1a from my strs before snp tested and than snps verified it so while strs are not perfect if it's the same last name and a perfect match it is the same haplogroup obviously. Concerning the Boyett I thought I was obvious I was being general and of course some Boyt are also H2 however I was just making an observation in that it seems more common in Boyett than Boyt but I don't see any reasons to nit pick. In any case it is clear that the F-M89 men on that project are indeed H2-P96 du to an exact str match with a H2-P96 and low resolution is not hy they are labeled F.

All the men in the project are modern men not ancient bones with that being said they seem to perhaps mostly have an ancestor from like the 1700s so you may be correct in saying that all H2-P96 in the UK has only been found in a couple modern men (with modern being defined in the 1700s) just they have more descendents now but perhaps they can all be traced to one one in the 1700s. Or not but I at least see your point. In any case dozens of DNA confirmed results of H2-p96 have been found in modern UK/English in America as can be seen on the Boyette project. But perhaps they all desend from one man in the 1700s.

Paul333
05-12-2022, 12:23 AM
All the men in the project are modern men not ancient bones with that being said they seem to perhaps mostly have an ancestor from like the 1700s so you may be correct in saying that all H2-P96 in the UK has only been found in a couple modern men (with modern being defined in the 1700s) just they have more descendents now but perhaps they can all be traced to one one in the 1700s. Or not but I at least see your point. In any case dozens of DNA confirmed results of H2-p96 have been found in modern UK/English in America as can be seen on the Boyette project. But perhaps they all desend from one man in the 1700s.

The Topic was for 'Living' Y H2-P96, and there is only a few confirmed by those who have actually tested. 'Modern' cannot be defined from 1700s, The 1700s, is a Historic period. Modern is contemporary with todays Lifetime. You cannot confirm a direct YH2-P96 ancestry from any person living from the 1700s without any evidence of a Y DNA test. You can only assume that Y direct ancestors should be the same but this cannot be proven or confirmed without testing, and a lot of entries have been added or stated as Y H2 P96 etc, with no such confirmation, If they are American, they cannot be UK/English, they are Americans.

Unfortunately, the Boyt/Boyd/Boyatte Project you rely on, is missleading, and is incorrect, and False, most of the entries Y DNA Haplogroup, have never been tested, and therefore most of the information placed, cannot be confirmed.

Those listed on the Y Full H-P6 have all been tested, and therefore they are confirmed,and genuine.

There is also further confusion on the Y Full Tree, as some entries flags are incorrect, such as the only match relating to to myself,on Y Full is an American,not an Englishman,and is missleadingly using an English Flag, soley because he believes his paternal ancestors left England in the 1700s,and carried Y H-P96,to America, but this again cannot be proved and is only assumed, and yet he is indicating he is from England today, which is incorrect.

I understand the reason the flags are attached on the Y Full tree is to give locallities of confirmed Y H-P96 today. The ancient markers have the flags to locate then where they were found and confirmed in earlier history much the same.

What is happening is there is so many uncomfirmed on the projects it becomes confusing when you try to research as they are mostly and possibly only FTDNA's oldest recorded ancestor's most of which have not been tested or confirmed, theres no way you can say that those from 1600/1700/1800s etc have had Y DNA or even STR confirmation tests etc,its just not true, keep it real.