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View Full Version : Am I looking at a NPE?? (Z16539)



galloglass
07-30-2021, 04:20 PM
I just got the results back from 23andme for my father-in-law. He came back as Z16539.
DF13 > DF21 > Z30233 > CTS8704 > Z246 > DF25 > DF5 > FGC3899 > ZZ32_1 > CTS3655 > Z16539
He may belong to a downstream SNP.
He is from Panama and has a Basque surname. As I understand it, DF13 and its subclades are generally from the British Isles.
His autosomal DNA came back as 20% Irish/British and I've done his family tree back to around 1800. All have Spanish surnames except for
his Jamaican grandmother, who could account for some of his Irish/British DNA, but not his Y-DNA. Could someone from the Basque area have this SNP,
or is it more likely that somewhere along the line there was a non-paternal event? I'm planning on getting a Big Y 700 to confirm.

R.Rocca
07-30-2021, 04:33 PM
As per Valverde et al. (2015), 2.7% of urban Basques and 1.6% or rural Basques are L21. Not sure of the sub-clades though.

RobertCasey
07-30-2021, 04:37 PM
The YSNP testing from atDNA testing companies is very dated and only reveals extremely older haplogroups. In your case, Z16539 is estimated
to be around 3,060 YBP - so this connection is very old. You can always search BigTree (ytree.net) to find a chart of the testers that have
submitted their NGS VCF files for analysis. Just search ytree.net Z16539. This only works for R1b testers:

https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=207

From the above chart, I do not see any Iberian surnames in the 21 testers that submitted their NGS data (file from Big Y tests or equivalent). FTDNA
currently has 56 branches under Z16539

Webb
07-30-2021, 05:06 PM
According to this study the amount of L21 in most of the Basque region is much higher than any other study has produced. As an example out of 57 samples from South Western Gipuzkoa, 13 were L21. This is 22.8%. In Gipuzkoa itself out of 47 samples, 9 were L21. This is 19%. In Lapurdi/Baztan out of 44 samples, 12 were L21, which is 27%. L21 more closely matches R.Rocca's referenced study samples in this study in the Spanish and Aquitaine regions.

When you open this link to the paper, there is a supplemental excel spreadsheet with the sample sizes per region and then what the Ydna calls were. They did not go below L21.

https://doi.org/10.1093/molbev/mss091

alejandromb92
07-30-2021, 05:22 PM
Based in what i saw in FBs groups where spaniards from all places gather to share DNA results, i hardly believe the basques reach +20% of R1b-L21, actually, i never saw one yet, i am talking about a lot of members. They usually are R1b (i only saw one scoring J2), but everyone one of them are R1b-DF27. There is an excepcion i met in other forum where he was from a french-basque line, and he was R1b-U152. I am not saying there aren't basques with R1b-L21, but i don't believe that more than 1/5 of them are.

Webb
07-30-2021, 05:29 PM
Based in what i saw in FBs groups where spaniards from all places gather to share DNA results, i hardly believe the basques reach +20% of R1b-L21, actually, i never saw one yet, i am talking about a lot of members. They usually are R1b (i only saw one scoring J2), but everyone one of them are R1b-DF27. There is an excepcion i met in other forum where he was from a french-basque line, and he was R1b-U152. I am not saying there aren't basques with R1b-L21, but i don't believe that more than 1/5 of them are.

You can believe what you want, but this is the second time I have posted a link to this study and it was followed by the same comment from you. The paper is free access and so is the supplementary table listing the sample sizes from each region and what the Ydna determination was.

alejandromb92
07-30-2021, 05:34 PM
You can believe what you want, but this is the second time I have posted a link to this study and it was followed by the same comment from you. The paper is free access and so is the supplementary table listing the sample sizes from each region and what the Ydna determination was.

Table S3a. Y-chromosome absolute haplogroup frequencies.

BIG BEA CHA ZMI NLA SOU RON NCO NNO GUI GSO ALA BBA BOC CAN BUR RIO NAR
44 56 58 44 66 53 53 60 51 47 57 51 57 19 18 20 54 27
E-M123 - - 1 - 1 - - - - - - - - - - - - -
E-M35 - - - - - - - - - - - 1 - - - - - -
E-M78 - 1 - - - - - - 1 - - - - - - - - 1
E-M81 1 1 - - - - 2 1 - 1 - 1 1 1 1 1 - -
E-V12 - 1 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
E-V13 - - - - - - - - - - - 1 - - - 1 - -
E-V65 - - - - - - - - - - 1 3 1 1 - - - -
G-P15 2 - - - - - - - - 1 - - 1 - - 1 1 -
I-M223 4 1 4 - - - - 2 - - - - - - - - - 1
I-M253 - 1 1 1 - - 1 - - 2 - 3 - - - 1 2 -
I-M26 - 5 4 3 8 9 2 3 4 2 2 2 1 1 3 1 3 4
I-P215 - - - - 1 - - - - - - 1 - - - - - -
I-P37.2 - - - 2 - - - - - - - 1 - - - - - -
J-M12 - - - - 1 - - 1 - - - - - - 1 - 1 -
J-M267 - 1 - - 2 - - - - - - - 1 - - - 2 -
J-M410 1 1 1 - 1 1 3 3 - - - 1 - - 1 2 3 -
N-P105 - - - - - 1 - - - - - - - - - - 2 -
R-L2 1 1 1 1 1 - 1 - 1 - - 2 2 1 - 1 - -
R-L20 - - - - - - - - 2 - - - - - - - - 1
R-L21 3 8 6 12 9 3 11 9 5 9 13 11 7 2 - - 6 1
R-L23 3 2 - 1 - 1 - - - - - - 1 - - - 1 -
R-L48 - 1 - - 2 - - - 1 - - - - - - - - -
R-M153 2 9 2 5 10 23 9 10 8 5 4 2 7 3 - 2 3 5
R-M17 - 1 1 - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 -
R-P311 1 - - 1 - - - - 1 - - - - - - - - -
R-P312 18 13 28 16 21 14 16 27 22 26 32 18 35 9 8 8 17 9
R-SRY10831.2 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 - -
R-SRY2627 6 9 4 2 8 1 5 4 4 1 4 4 - 1 1 - 8 5
R-U106 2 - 4 - 1 - 1 - 2 - - - - - - 1 - -
R-U152 - - 1 - - - 2 - - - - - - - 1 - 2 -
T-M70 - - - - - - - - - - 1 - - - 2 - 2 -

I didn't even quoted you, nor i remember commenting you this before. You are not the only one sharing that paper in this same forum, so calm down.

Webb
07-30-2021, 05:40 PM
I didn't even quoted you, nor i remember commenting you this before. You are not the only one sharing that paper in this same forum, so calm down.

I am calm, but you said you could hardly believe that L21 would reach close to 21% amongst the Basque after I posted a link to a study that shows just that. The study that R. Rocca links used a very small sample size compared to this study.

alejandromb92
07-30-2021, 05:45 PM
I am calm, but you said you could hardly believe that L21 would reach close to 21% amongst the Basque after I posted a link to a study that shows just that. The study that R. Rocca links used a very small sample size compared to this study.

I didn't mention any paper, i am saying that based in the results i saw from basques and hispano-americans with basque lines, i hardly believe that R1b-L21 reach a fifth part of them. I might be wrong, and the studies made there couldn't enough.

Not intervening anymore in this post.

Webb
07-30-2021, 06:05 PM
I didn't mention any paper, i am saying that based in the results i saw from basques and hispano-americans with basque lines, i hardly believe that R1b-L21 reach a fifth part of them. I might be wrong, and the studies made there couldn't enough.

Not intervening anymore in this post.

I am not trying to jump down your throat. And you are correct that just about every other study done has shown numbers of L21 amongst the Basque and Spain in general to be pretty low. But this is one of the best studies I have seen. No jumping to conclusions, they just reported what they found. They tested 5 regions in Spain, 3 regions in France, and 10 regions in the Basque area with a total of 835 samples. They tested for 7 different E variants, one G variant, 5 I variants, 3 J variants, one N variant, U152 plus two downstream variants, L23, P311, P312, L21, two downstream variants of DF27, two R1a variants, U106 plus two downstream variants, and one T variant.

Plus I am DF27 and we are known to be cranky. R. Rocca can vouch for that.

R.Rocca
07-30-2021, 06:31 PM
Plus I am DF27 and we are known to be cranky. R. Rocca can vouch for that.

:D We are R1b, we are meant to be cranky.

All kidding aside, the point to all this is that an L21 result in a Basque male does not automatically scream 'NPE'.