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Dewsloth
08-06-2021, 11:49 PM
I posted this in another thread, and thought I'd put it here and add more country results from the FTDNA Group Map:

A cheat sheet:
DF88 and Z302 formed in Corded Ware, Single Grave Culture or earliest Beaker
S4281 and S4268 are Bronze Age
Z17112 is roughly LBA or Bronze Age Collapse
anything "below" that is Iron Age or younger.

Of the 248 DF19s who specifically listed where their MDKA was from, 5 are from Poland (more than there are submitted to the map from France).

P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY44243>Z17123> Z17126>Z40619 Parchowo [Z17112 has a lot of "sons" and fanned out around NW Europe beginning around the Bronze Age Collapse]
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z21380> Z41639 Karsko/Carzig
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z39816 Wroclaw
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S22352 Pianówka
DF88* P312>DF19>DF88 Sanok

^^The last one, DF88*, is on the San River (which feeds into the Vistula) in SE Poland. There are only two DF88* members in the 549 DF19 member group. The other one has a MDKA from Sokndal, Norway.

For comparison, according to Yfull, DF19 formed 4500 ybp, TMRCA 4500 ybp; its two oldest/main branches are DF88 and Z302. Per Yfull, DF88 also formed soon after around 4500 ybp, TMRCA 4500 ybp; and Z302 formed 4500 ybp, TMRCA 4400 ybp.

The oldest known DF19>Z302* is Oostwoud's I5748 who Yfull puts at ~4345 ybp (the calibrated age of the burial is 2579-2211 calBCE which goes right back to ~4500 ybp, so I5748 is theoretically old enough to be the first Z302 or at least know who they were).

This doesn't prove that this DF88* moved along the suspected Corded Ware path from Ukraine to the Baltic, they could also be something like the descendant of a Viking who travelled the opposite way on the rivers, or some other random traveler who put down roots.

Dewsloth
08-06-2021, 11:59 PM
Norway. 3 on the map:

P312>DF19>DF88* Sokndal
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>BY77700 Norderhov
P312>DF19>Z302>Z43178 Våler

Sweden (4):
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>S17075>L644>BY19338 Välinge
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>S17075>L644>Z43773 Sundet, Norrbärke
Also one DF19+ from Hjulsjö that hasn't done BigY. NevGen says 92% prob. of S17075 (and all known S17075 are also L644+ except for "Britain Roman" 6DRIF23 and one family surname from both England and France)
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z27257>Z29047>Z30487>FT156223 Kalmar län
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY44243>Z17125>Z29034 This is VK333 buried in Öland

Denmark (1):
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z21380>L719>Z30475 Fanefjord
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY44243>Z21280>BY39845 DK (nonmap)

Czech Republic:
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z27257>Z29047>BY61188 Prague
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z27257>Z29047>BY61188 Zderaz

Dewsloth
08-07-2021, 03:08 AM
Belgium:
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S22352>Z30474 Glons
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z27257>Z39228> FGC68465 Oudenaarde
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>S17075>L644>FT66914 Hasselt
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>S17075>L644>BY19345 Berlaar

Netherlands:
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S22352>S22748 Dinther
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>S17075>L644> Z28011 Darp
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>S17075>L644> Z28011 Nijensleek
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>S17075>L644> BY73397 Lingewaal
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z27257>Z29047>Z30487> FT156223 Winterswijk
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z27257> S8381 Sint-Michielsgestel
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z21380>Z41639 Den Dungen

P312>DF19>Z302* Oostwoud I5748 SGC/Early Beaker ~4400ybp
P312>DF19>Z302>Z8193> BY206296 Dokkum

Also one from Haarlem that hasn’t done BigY but NevGen is 98% sure belongs to my subclade P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY44243>Z43162
[will continue in a little while]

Dewsloth
08-07-2021, 11:05 PM
France:
R1b-P312>DF19>Z302>Z8193>BY65070 Grémonville, Normandy
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>S17075>Z43820 (this is L644- and the British/French family are closest living Y match to "Britain Roman" 6DT23, sharing at least two SNPs)
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z39816>PH3649 Normandel
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z27257 Ardennes
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112 Saint-Julien, Hérault not sure if he's Z17112* or this was a SNP pack

Guyana (this was Dutch and British at varying times):
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>S17075>L644

Russia:
P312>DF19>Z302>Z8193>BY3448
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>S17075>L644>Z28019
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z21380>L719>Z30475

Iceland:
P312>DF19>Z302

Switzerland:
P312>DF19>Z302>Z8193>BY3448>Z39459 The only other match to this subclade is RMPR31 ("Rome Late Antiquity" ~400AD)

Isle of Man:
P312>DF19>Z302>Z8193

Dewsloth
08-07-2021, 11:45 PM
I am dreading doing Germany, the UK and Ireland :lol:

Dewsloth
08-08-2021, 04:01 AM
A cheat sheet:
DF88 and Z302 formed in Corded Ware, Single Grave Culture or earliest Beaker
S4281 and S4268 are Bronze Age
Z17112 is roughly LBA or Bronze Age Collapse
anything "below" that is Iron Age or younger.

I can’t edit the post with the cheat sheet, but need to add that we know S17075 is at least as old as 200AD because 6DT23 is S17075+

Dewsloth
08-09-2021, 06:39 PM
Using general group data instead of map data for simplicity for the high-reporting countries.

Ireland:
P312>DF19>Z39380 This DF19 subclade is in Ireland and Britain -- it is the only DF19 family surname/subclade that is neither DF88 nor Z302
R1b-P312>DF19>Z302>Z35647 Ballymodan, Cork
R1b-P312>DF19>Z302>Z8193 Three different subclades (Glenavy (North), Dublin, Galway)
R1b-P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S22352 Dublin
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>S8137/464QuadC
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>FTA73126 Sligo
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>S17075>L644>Z28020
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>S17075>L644>BY211588 Sligo
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>S17075>L644>Z21082 Cavan
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z27257
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY44243>Z17123>Z17126>Z40619>BY71776
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY44243>Z21280>Z21279


Northern Ireland (if specified):
P312>DF19>DF88>Z29041>Z17267 This is the same parent subclade of Clan Grant
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>S8137/464QuadC
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z21380>L719


Wales:
P312>DF19>Z302>FT162753
P312>DF19>Z302>Z8193>Z39458
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>S17075>L644>Y86088

Dewsloth
08-09-2021, 09:27 PM
Scotland:
P312>DF19>Z302>Z819>Z29064
P312>DF19>Z302>Z819>BY190067
P312>DF19>Z302>Z819>BY69738
P312>DF19>DF88>L1199/L1200 Seven terminal subclade SNPs; all in Scotland except for 2 in England (none on continent)
P312>DF19>DF88>Z29041 Seventeen terminal subclade SNPs; all in Scotland (includes Clan Grant) except for 1 in N. Ireland and one in Italy
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281 S4281*?
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S22352
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>S8137/464QuadC At least 3 terminal SNPs
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>S17075>L644 At least 4 terminal SNPs
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z21380>L719
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z27257
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z27257>Z29047
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY44243>Z17123>Z29034 Closer Y match to VK333
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY44243>Z21280>Z21279>Z40708

Dewsloth
08-09-2021, 09:45 PM
Guernsey:
P312>DF19>Z302>BY56094

England:
P312>DF19>Z39380 All one family surname (11 entries) TMRCA 125 years ago so true origin a mystery
P312>DF19>Z302>Z8193 6 entries, all English Z302 are Z8193+
P312>DF19>DF88>L1199/L1200 two terminal SNPs
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 four terminal SNPs
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S22352 two terminal SNPs
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>S17075 One family; Closest Y match to 6DT23
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>S17075>L644 Seventeen entries, mostly different SNPs
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z21380>L719 four terminal SNPs
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z21380>Z41639 three terminal SNPs
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z27257>Z29047
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z27257>Z29047>Z30487 Also in Sweden, Netherlands
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z27257>Z39228 Also in Belgium
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z39816
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY44243>Z17123>Z29034 Closest Y match to VK333; also in Scotland, Norway and Germany (where surname is "Frese" - Frisian?)

Dewsloth
08-09-2021, 10:02 PM
Germany:
P312>DF19>Z302 six SNPs
P312>DF19>Z302>Z8193 four+ SNPs
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281 S4281*?
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S22352 four SNPs
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268 two SNPs
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>S17075>L644 five SNPs
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z21380>S1393>S1388 four SNPs
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z21380>Z41639
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z27257
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z39816
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY44243>Z21280>Z21279
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY44243>Z17123>Z29034 Same block as VK333 but not closest match
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY44243>Z17123>Z17126>Z17318>Z17317 there are 30-40 of these (surname project) with varying terminal SNPs
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY44243>Z43162 five terminal SNP blocks (including mine) no matching surnames; TMRCA 1500+ ybp

Dewsloth
08-11-2021, 04:10 PM
Italy:
P312>DF19> Z302>Z8193>BY3448>Z39459 This is RMPR31 from ~400AD. Buried at the Mausoleo di Augusto with no good context. Autosomally looks like a modern Norwegian. Shares SNPs with a Swiss kit above.
P312>DF19>DF88>Z29041 This is the same 6-SNP parent clade as Clan Grant, but Clan Grant and all the rest of the 39 Z29041 Big Y kits all share a 40+ SNP block below that that the Italian (Salerno) one doesn't. This guy split off a long time ago. :confused:

Dewsloth
08-11-2021, 07:55 PM
So as I said, I think DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112 dates back to about the LBA or maybe Bronze Age Collapse.
It is a 4-SNP block with at least 8 different surviving SNP "son" lines, and each of those 8 have Big Y kits with 30-50 shared public/private SNPs below the Z17112 block.

The blocktree distribution is:

Germany 79 29.7%
England 52 19.55%
United States 42 15.79%
United Kingdom 16 6.02%
Ireland 15 5.64%
Scotland 14 5.26%
Belgium 11 4.14%
Netherlands 7 2.63%
France 5 1.88%
Sweden 5 1.88%
Northern Ireland 3 1.13%
Wales 3 1.13%
Norway 3 1.13%
Czech Republic 2 0.75%
Canada 2 0.75%
Russian Federation 2 0.75%
Denmark 2 0.75%
Guyana 1 0.38%
Poland 1 0.38%
Austria 1 0.38%
Unknown Origin167 **
Total 433 100.00%

I would love to know more about the circumstances of the spread of Z17112. There are no burial finds yet for its first 1000 years (Cremation? Acidic soil? Sea level change?).
It's not as clear as only Saxon/Viking/Flemish migration to the UK, as the oldest known Z17112 burial is one of the Driffield soldier/gladiators, 6DT23 at ~250AD and it seems from his G25 his ancestors crossed the Channel quite a bit earlier.
Fellow Z17112 (but on a completely different branch) is Viking Age VK333 from the island of Öland, Sweden. Autosomally in G25 he looks like he's half Iron Age Ölander, but since we don't have any other older DF19 samples, it's impossible to say which half ;)
Right now the only other historical sample of Z17112 is from Lord Baltimore's family (the Calverts) and even their past ancestry is something of a mystery.
On the continent, it looks more Germanic than Celtic, but maybe that gets fuzzier in the Isles, or maybe it's just exacerbated by regional over-reporting.

GOM
08-15-2021, 02:17 AM
On the continent, it looks more Germanic than Celtic, but maybe that gets fuzzier in the Isles, or maybe it's just exacerbated by regional over-reporting.

Thanks for all the effort involved in transcribing these details from the FTDNA maps.

I’m not sure what the Blocktree distribution table tells us. It seems to suggest an origin for Z17112 in Germany. However, such country comparisons need to take into account differences in the population of each country as well as the propensity of its citizens to undertake Y-DNA tests. In February I outlined a way of normalising the data by comparing them to the total number of tests reported by FTDNA in each country. This is found from the number of “All Downstream Participants” listed by FTDNA in its “Y-DNA Results Haplotree” for the earliest SNP, A-PR2921. That number reflects the total tests undertaken with an ancestor in that country and varies widely. Belgium has only 36 tests per million of population, while Ireland has 1992 tests per million.

See https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?988-DF19-(P312-gt-DF19)-amp-Subclades-L644-Z302-etc/page9

For R-Z17112 the percentages in each country are:

Country A-PR2921 R-Z17112 %
Belgium 408 11 2.70
Germany 8,318 78 0.94
Netherlands 1,134 7 0.62
England 13,136 52 0.40
UK 4,597 16 0.35
Denmark 668 2 0.30
Wales 1,056 3 0.28
Czech.R. 744 2 0.27
N.Ireland 1,178 3 0.25
France 3,078 6 0.19
Scotland 7,299 14 0.19
Austria 548 1 0.18
Norway 1,812 3 0.17
Ireland 9,962 15 0.15
Sweden 3,644 5 0.14
Russian.F. 4,815 2 0.04
Poland 3,106 1 0.03
Guyana 6 1 16.67
USA 6,977 42 0.60
Canada 411 2 0.49

Unknown.Or. 91,573 167 0.18
Total 209,153 433 0.21


This is illustrated on the map below and highlights the prominence of Z17112 in the low countries.

46110


Of course the present day concentration of a haplogroup does not necessarily represent its origin. However it is interesting that our earliest ancient DF19 (I5748) was discovered in the Netherlands. He was Z302* rather than Z17112+, but was born close to the formation age of DF19.

Panthelias
08-17-2021, 02:41 PM
France:

P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z27257 Ardennes
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112 Saint-Julien, Hérault not sure if he's Z17112* or this was a SNP pack



Hi ;)

I am the second sample (St Julien). I am Z17112 *, my Big Y is done since a long time. My lineage is unknown before 1805. I have a hypothesis. If it's correct, it would lead in the south of Cotentin, in Normandy. I haven't investigated yet. The more common and usual the tests will be in France, the more chances I will have to avoid a negative reaction when I propose it to verify.

For the first sample (Ardennes), no Big Y, it's just a test of 37 markers. Currently, the chances are very low for the Big Y. The situation is very very complicated.

Dewsloth
08-17-2021, 04:27 PM
Hi ;)

I am the second sample (St Julien). I am Z17112 *, my Big Y is done since a long time. My lineage is unknown before 1805. I have a hypothesis. If it's correct, it would lead in the south of Cotentin, in Normandy. I haven't investigated yet. The more common and usual the tests will be in France, the more chances I will have to avoid a negative reaction when I propose it to verify.

For the first sample (Ardennes), no Big Y, it's just a test of 37 markers. Currently, the chances are very low for the Big Y. The situation is very very complicated.

:beerchug: Thank you for the information, and nice to "meet" you! Very interesting about the possible Cotentin link.

I know the Anglo/Irish P312>DF19>Z39380 (14 Big Y kits, all one surname, and the only known DF19 subclade to be neither DF88 nor Z302) also have possible ancestral links to the Cotentin area in Norman times.

I wish you luck in finding additional matching kits from France (or anywhere).
I know my own subclade has matches on yfull from Haarlem who stopped answering my messages there; has probable Haarlem matches who have only done STR testing in the DF19 group and never answered any appeals on the group's chat (I hope they have not passed away); and there is a newer matching Big Y kit from northern Germany that hasn't joined the group and apparently doesn't answer the group's Admin's appeals for contact.

Some day we'll know more :biggrin1:

Panthelias
08-17-2021, 05:43 PM
:beerchug: Thank you for the information, and nice to "meet" you! Very interesting about the possible Cotentin link.

I know the Anglo/Irish P312>DF19>Z39380 (14 Big Y kits, all one surname, and the only known DF19 subclade to be neither DF88 nor Z302) also have possible ancestral links to the Cotentin area in Norman times.

I wish you luck in finding additional matching kits from France (or anywhere).
I know my own subclade has matches on yfull from Haarlem who stopped answering my messages there; has probable Haarlem matches who have only done STR testing in the DF19 group and never answered any appeals on the group's chat (I hope they have not passed away); and there is a newer matching Big Y kit from northern Germany that hasn't joined the group and apparently doesn't answer the group's Admin's appeals for contact.

Some day we'll know more :biggrin1:

Thanks :beerchug:

"Somme day we'll know more"... I hope !

On the main French-speaking forums, newcomers are too much directed towards 23andme and Ancestry. They only consider the size of the sample base, and shy away from FTDNA. Big mistake. This creates a very regrettable deficit in Big Y tests.

They are fascinated by the many matches offered by autosomal tests, and do not understand the value of Y chromosome testing. Considering the price, you have to find people willing to pay this amount for exciting information but over a very long period of time. Autosomal tests are cheaper and give more information immediately. The system is poorly made, the Y chromosome tests should be much cheaper, and the autosomal tests much more expensive. This would greatly help Y chromosome testing, without disadvantaging autosomal tests.

Hope there aren't too many mistakes, I use an online translator, it's long and tedious.

Dewsloth
10-05-2021, 04:00 PM
Denmark (1):
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>Z21380>L719>Z30475 Fanefjord
P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY44243>Z21280>BY39845 DK (nonmap)



A new Danish MDKA sample came up on yfull. He's a different branch of S4281 than the others previously listed, and not on FTDNA's DF19 group:

R-P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>Z27749/S22352>Z30474 (Sjælland/Zealand)

Yfull estimates S4281 formed 4000 years ago, TMRCA 3800 ybp, Z30474 formed 2800 ybp; TMRCA 2700 ybp.

JMcB
10-05-2021, 05:54 PM
A new Danish MDKA sample came up on yfull. He's a different branch of S4281 than the others previously listed, and not on FTDNA's DF19 group:

R-P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833>S4281>Z27749/S22352>Z30474 (Sjælland/Zealand)

Yfull estimates S4281 formed 4000 years ago, TMRCA 3800 ybp, Z30474 formed 2800 ybp; TMRCA 2700 ybp.


Judging from the info box he looks like a Family Tree tester who submitted a VCF file

Dewsloth
10-05-2021, 05:58 PM
Judging from the info box he looks like a Family Tree tester who submitted a VCF file

Yeah, he's in the BlockTree, but not the group. I think only about half the BlockTree DF19s are in the DF19 group.
You'd think someone who went through the trouble of submitting their FTDNA results to Yfull would also join their subclade group :confused:

JMcB
10-05-2021, 06:14 PM
Yeah, he's in the BlockTree, but not the group. I think only about half the BlockTree DF19s are in the DF19 group.
You'd think someone who went through the trouble of submitting their FTDNA results to Yfull would also join their subclade group :confused:

Yeah, I agree. Especially, as they’re free and easy to join!