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Avraam Kyriakidis
09-04-2021, 12:54 PM
My results from ftdna indicates that i am an EV13 guy and my closest match is a Kosovar Albanian. Can some body tell me how an Albanian marker arrived in Pontus?

Francis Drake
09-04-2021, 01:03 PM
Assimilated Albanian from the ottoman empire, possibly.

Trojet
09-04-2021, 01:40 PM
My results from ftdna indicates that i am an EV13 guy and my closest match is a Kosovar Albanian. Can some body tell me how an Albanian marker arrived in Pontus?

Hi. You can join Albanian Bloodlines Project at FamilyTreeDNA, and we can analyze your Y-DNA STR haplotype: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/albanian-bloodlines/about

Huban
09-04-2021, 01:53 PM
My results from ftdna indicates that i am an EV13 guy and my closest match is a Kosovar Albanian. Can some body tell me how an Albanian marker arrived in Pontus?

Hi. If I'm looking at the correct STR's, and I think I am, you belong to the E-FGC11450>Y146086>Y140828.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y140828/

There are already 3 Greeks of likely Arvanite origin at the FTDNA in this clade, but you indeed seem closer to an Albanian than to them. You could too be of Arvanite roots or this could be some other event, Byzantine/Ottoman era related..

So far most Pontic Greek V13 has been under E-Y163740, and this clade has certainlyl an older presence there.

Avraam Kyriakidis
09-04-2021, 01:54 PM
I match the Kosovar guy at 67 ydna markers on ftdna. My autosomal dna on the other hand is 100% West Asian. I can link G25 results or gedmatch.

Trojet
09-04-2021, 02:11 PM
Hi. If I'm looking at the correct STR's, and I think I am, you belong to the E-FGC11450>Y146086>Y140828.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y140828/

There are already 3 Greeks of likely Arvanite origin at the FTDNA in this clade, but you indeed seem closer to an Albanian than to them. You could too be of Arvanite roots or this could be some other event, Byzantine/Ottoman era related..

So far most Pontic Greek V13 has been under E-Y163740, and this clade has certainlyl an older presence there.


I match the Kosovar guy at 67 ydna markers on ftdna. My autosomal dna on the other hand is 100% West Asian. I can link G25 results or gedmatch.

Yes, since you are matching one of our members, I can confirm you are under E-Y146086 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y146086/), a V13 subclade which is quite common among Albanians.

Kelmendasi
09-04-2021, 02:19 PM
If you are E-Y140828 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y140828/) then an Albanian origin for your line is practically a certainty. Considering that your autosomal ancestry is typical for a Pontic Greek and shows no clear recent input from the Balkans with groups such as the Arvanites, it is possible that this was an earlier entry following the initial phases of the Ottoman takeover of Albanian territories during the fifteenth century CE. During this period a number of Albanian families, especially feudal and aristocratic families, were deported from their ancestral lands to the east with a number ending up in the lands around Trabzon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trabzon) (historical Trebizond) which till this day still has a Greek-speaking Muslim and Pontic Greek presence.

From Dritan Egro's Islam in Albanian lands during the first two centuries of the Ottoman rule:

In the 15th century the Ottoman government transferred some Albanian timar-holders of the feudal families (Mazaraki and Hekali) to Trebizond. The result was complete ethnic assimilation and Islamization of these people cutting forever every connection with their native lands.

Trojet
09-04-2021, 02:30 PM
I match the Kosovar guy at 67 ydna markers on ftdna. My autosomal dna on the other hand is 100% West Asian. I can link G25 results or gedmatch.


Yes, since you are matching one of our members, I can confirm you are under E-Y146086 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y146086/), a V13 subclade which is quite common among Albanians.

However, since the GD to the Kosovar sample is kind of high, it's possible you may not be related to any Albanians within a reasonable timeframe, as is the case with the Finnish and Russian samples on YFull under J-Y146086. Further STR analysis may help. Or even better, you can upgrade to Big Y-700 or a WGS test (ex. YSEQ WGS400 (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=175886)), as Y-67 or Y-111 is nowhere near that precise

Avraam Kyriakidis
09-04-2021, 02:42 PM
Yes, since you are matching one of our members, I can confirm you are under E-Y146086 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y146086/), a V13 subclade which is quite common among Albanians.

46395

You think its worth it for big Y?

Avraam Kyriakidis
09-04-2021, 02:46 PM
If you are E-Y140828 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y140828/) then an Albanian origin for your line is practically a certainty. Considering that your autosomal ancestry is typical for a Pontic Greek and shows no clear recent input from the Balkans with groups such as the Arvanites, it is possible that this was an earlier entry following the initial phases of the Ottoman takeover of Albanian territories during the fifteenth century CE. During this period a number of Albanian families, especially feudal and aristocratic families, were deported from their ancestral lands to the east with a number ending up in the lands around Trabzon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trabzon) (historical Trebizond) which till this day still has a Greek-speaking Muslim and Pontic Greek presence.

From Dritan Egro's Islam in Albanian lands during the first two centuries of the Ottoman rule:

In the 15th century the Ottoman government transferred some Albanian timar-holders of the feudal families (Mazaraki and Hekali) to Trebizond. The result was complete ethnic assimilation and Islamization of these people cutting forever every connection with their native lands.

Interesting you say so, but still i am wondering why there is not any admix from the balkans or something. Anything to do with Illyrians, Thracians, Sea People or even Greeks during the Iron Age period or something?

digital_noise
09-04-2021, 02:58 PM
Interesting you say so, but still i am wondering why there is not any admix from the balkans or something. Anything to do with Illyrians, Thracians, Sea People or even Greeks during the Iron Age period or something?

because the most recent common ancestor is 1000 years ago, and autosomal admix gets washed out in that amount of time

Rrenjet.
09-04-2021, 03:23 PM
My results from ftdna indicates that i am an EV13 guy and my closest match is a Kosovar Albanian. Can some body tell me how an Albanian marker arrived in Pontus?

To get a general idea of E-FGC11450, you can read our article: https://rrenjet.com/E-FGC11450/. It's written in Albanian, but Google Translate works very well with it. We have several distinct branches under this subclade already, but even more to be revealed, since not nearly all diversity of result has been tested in high resolution. I'd recommend you either PM me your STR markers or join our project here: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/rrenjet, so we can compare your markers to our database.

dosas
09-04-2021, 03:32 PM
Ι don't remember the source at the moment (I will try and find it for you) but I recall reading about Turcalbanian (not my term) mercenaries working for the Ottoman fleet and Christian Arvanitic pirates in the Black Sea, especially during the Russo-Turkish Crimean War and onwards.

Could be worth looking into.

Avraam Kyriakidis
09-04-2021, 03:39 PM
because the most recent common ancestor is 1000 years ago, and autosomal admix gets washed out in that amount of time

How much period/timeline It needs your autDNA to get washed?

Avraam Kyriakidis
09-04-2021, 03:41 PM
To get a general idea of E-FGC11450, you can read our article: https://rrenjet.com/E-FGC11450/. It's written in Albanian, but Google Translate works very well with it. We have several distinct branches under this subclade already, but even more to be revealed, since not nearly all diversity of result has been tested in high resolution. I'd recommend you either PM me your STR markers or join our project here: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/rrenjet, so we can compare your markers to our database.

Ok i did. Do you suggest me to go for big Y?

rafc
09-04-2021, 03:46 PM
You think its worth it for big Y?

I think Big Y would be very interesting. I'm a co-admin at the E-M35 project, and I can tell you that you are also close to an Ukranian (GD 8) and a person from Trabzon (GD 9), which are both FGC11450 tested or predicted (but they have not done Big Y yet). I would not be surprised if you would form a new clade under FGC11450.
The close match to the Kosovar is intruiging, but I agree with Trojet that it might be a coincidence. If you really belonged in that cluster we might expect that you would match more of them (assuming they tested 67 markers).

Avraam Kyriakidis
09-04-2021, 04:14 PM
I think Big Y would be very interesting. I'm a co-admin at the E-M35 project, and I can tell you that you are also close to an Ukranian (GD 8) and a person from Trabzon (GD 9), which are both FGC11450 tested or predicted (but they have not done Big Y yet). I would not be surprised if you would form a new clade under FGC11450.
The close match to the Kosovar is intruiging, but I agree with Trojet that it might be a coincidence. If you really belonged in that cluster we might expect that you would match more of them (assuming they tested 67 markers).

Interesting to hear.So,we exclude any possibility this lineage to arrived in Pontus during the LBA/EIA(via Sea People-Bronze Age collapse) or maybe later with the Greek colonization?If it's not the case,then i have to admit it that we are talking probably for an Arvanite immigrant or something related coming either from mainland Greece or Albania.

Rrenjet.
09-04-2021, 04:21 PM
Ok i did. Do you suggest me to go for big Y?

It seems your matchlist has "suffered" from the multi-copy markers, where you have more than most (for example on DYS464 you have 6 copies instead of the modal 4). This is a common occurrence, so not always significant for classification, but it does reduce your matches. Nevertheless, I can see from other markers that you do not match the STR profiles of our members under E-Y127731 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y127731/) and E-Y146031 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y146091/).

I would also recommend BigY if you can afford it.

Avraam Kyriakidis
09-04-2021, 04:27 PM
It seems your matchlist has "suffered" from the multi-copy markers, where you have more than most (for example on DYS464 you have 6 copies instead of the modal 4). This is a common occurrence, so not always significant for classification, but it does reduce your matches. Nevertheless, I can see from other markers that you do not match the STR profiles of our members under E-Y127731 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y127731/) and E-Y146031 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y146091/).

I would also recommend BigY if you can afford it.

Ok,thanks a lot of your time and help!!!!

dosas
09-04-2021, 04:33 PM
My results from ftdna indicates that i am an EV13 guy and my closest match is a Kosovar Albanian. Can some body tell me how an Albanian marker arrived in Pontus?


I found you on my matches list. We share 16 cM on chr. 2. You also share 32 cM with my grandmother (Trabzon-Gumushane).

rafc
09-04-2021, 04:34 PM
Interesting to hear.So,we exclude any possibility this lineage to arrived in Pontus during the LBA/EIA(via Sea People-Bronze Age collapse) or maybe later with the Greek colonization?If it's not the case,then i have to admit it that we are talking probably for an Arvanite immigrant or something related coming either from mainland Greece or Albania.

We cannot exclude anything. Your ancestors might be arrivals from the Balkans in the Byzantine period, there were population movements then for sure. Post Byzantine seems less likely if you plot very Pontic and have no family lore about a non-pontic origin.
Off course the arrival can also be earlier, in Roman or Greek times. Not from Greece directly per se (but might be), I assume there was a lot of traffic between both sides of the Black sea, so your ancestors could have come to a Greek colony in the Pontic area like that.
Sea-peoples does not seem likely to me.

Avraam Kyriakidis
09-04-2021, 04:48 PM
We cannot exclude anything. Your ancestors might be arrivals from the Balkans in the Byzantine period, there were population movements then for sure. Post Byzantine seems less likely if you plot very Pontic and have no family lore about a non-pontic origin.
Off course the arrival can also be earlier, in Roman or Greek times. Not from Greece directly per se (but might be), I assume there was a lot of traffic between both sides of the Black sea, so your ancestors could have come to a Greek colony in the Pontic area like that.
Sea-peoples does not seem likely to me.

I see.Your statement is specifically about me or for the majority of Pontic Greeks being EV13?I guess i am a rare lineage even for EV13 Pontic Greeks...

rafc
09-04-2021, 04:55 PM
I see.Your statement is specifically about me or for the majority of Pontic Greeks being EV13?I guess i am a rare lineage even for EV13 Pontic Greeks...
I would say the same is true for other V13 lineages in Pontic Greeks. Your line seems quite rare, but a lot of V13 Pontic Greeks did not test very deep, so could be in your clade.

Avraam Kyriakidis
09-04-2021, 05:04 PM
I would say the same is true for other V13 lineages in Pontic Greeks. Your line seems quite rare, but a lot of V13 Pontic Greeks did not test very deep, so could be in your clade.

Do you see any connection/relation between the lineages of 'EV13' Pontic Greeks with 'EV13' Greek mainlanders?

Francis Drake
09-04-2021, 05:57 PM
Interesting you say so, but still i am wondering why there is not any admix from the balkans or something. Anything to do with Illyrians, Thracians, Sea People or even Greeks during the Iron Age period or something?

From which company was your ethnicity calculated? FTDNA/MyHeritage aren't always the most accurate. If you are 100% west-asian on 23andme/AncestryDNA though, it is for sure an old-line like Kelmendasi said.

digital_noise
09-04-2021, 06:31 PM
How much period/timeline It needs your autDNA to get washed?

Hard to say exactly but if that ethnicity isn’t added by another parent along the way, assume 100%~50%~25%~12.5% 6.25%~ 3.125%~ etc…. So like by 7-8 generations it’s pretty much nothing but trace ancestry. That’s a rough estimate.

Avraam Kyriakidis
09-04-2021, 07:10 PM
From which company was your ethnicity calculated? FTDNA/MyHeritage aren't always the most accurate. If you are 100% west-asian on 23andme/AncestryDNA though, it is for sure an old-line like Kelmendasi said.

46406

capsian
09-08-2021, 01:54 PM
Can some body tell me how an Albanian marker arrived in Pontus?[/QUOTE]

there many possibilities perhaps between peroid Macedonia (i mean ancient kingdom) to byzantin

Riverman
09-08-2021, 03:35 PM
How much period/timeline It needs your autDNA to get washed?

Sometimes, little to nothing remains after just about 5-7 generations. Even less so if comparing two related populations like Albanian and Greeks. And that's about the actual DNA, not the parts which can be properly assigned by the companies, especially those worse for ethnicity estimates, like My Heritage and FTDNA. You don't even inherit at all from all genealogical ancestors beyond 1/32-1/64, in rare instances even earlier. So its quite possible that the only thing you still have inherited from that ancestor is the y-chromosome.

The FTDNA-whitepaper deals with it on p. 12:
https://blog.familytreedna.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/myOrigins_3_WhitePaper.pdf

The graphic impressively shows that you inherit zero from many ancestors from a certain generation on. And the little you do inherit, from this remaining, is so small, it usually doesn't make a difference for the ancestral make up, unless its continental level (West Eurasian : East Asian : Subsaharan etc.), also described in the paper.

Also, you don't know the timing. STR-distances are not always that reliable, it could be your last common ancestor is from Antiquity. The STR-estimate would suggest an earlier common ancestor, but its just not as precise at all, it can miss "a couple of centuries" which would make a big difference as to whether your ancestors came in still in Antiquity, or later historical times with Vlachs or Albanians. If you do a BigY, you might get a better idea and its your only chance, making you safe for further developments and new safe SNP matches.
So if you really want to know, there is no way around a BigY or another WGS test for your y-chromosome.

Bruzmi
09-08-2021, 09:04 PM
If you are E-Y140828 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y140828/) then an Albanian origin for your line is practically a certainty. Considering that your autosomal ancestry is typical for a Pontic Greek and shows no clear recent input from the Balkans with groups such as the Arvanites, it is possible that this was an earlier entry following the initial phases of the Ottoman takeover of Albanian territories during the fifteenth century CE. During this period a number of Albanian families, especially feudal and aristocratic families, were deported from their ancestral lands to the east with a number ending up in the lands around Trabzon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trabzon) (historical Trebizond) which till this day still has a Greek-speaking Muslim and Pontic Greek presence.

From Dritan Egro's Islam in Albanian lands during the first two centuries of the Ottoman rule:

In the 15th century the Ottoman government transferred some Albanian timar-holders of the feudal families (Mazaraki and Hekali) to Trebizond. The result was complete ethnic assimilation and Islamization of these people cutting forever every connection with their native lands.


Ι don't remember the source at the moment (I will try and find it for you) but I recall reading about Turcalbanian (not my term) mercenaries working for the Ottoman fleet and Christian Arvanitic pirates in the Black Sea, especially during the Russo-Turkish Crimean War and onwards.

Could be worth looking into.

For someone under E-Y146086 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y146086/) who has a K. Albanian as his closest match, the late medieval era as described above is a likely time frame this lineage arrived in the Pontic area and it makes sense autosomally since your results are like those of any other Pontic Greek person.

To the above, I would add that Pontic Amasya (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amasya) was the headquarters of many Christian Albanian conscripts and newly converted ones (janissaries) in the late 15th and early 16th century. Of course, a somewhat earlier or later arrival is possible and I wouldn't exclude any possibility entirely before you get a deeper test.

In any case, I would urge you to get a WGS or BigY test. It will help us all gain more knowledge about the spread of your lineage, the contacts between our peoples and help us appreciate more the beauty of every culture :)

Avraam Kyriakidis
04-14-2022, 10:20 PM
On Y67 i am matching a kosovar Albanian guy.On 111 i am completely alone.Any thoughts if i should upgrade or maybe someone from the EV13 experts here can help me to realize where i belong?

Bruzmi
04-14-2022, 10:37 PM
On Y67 i am matching a kosovar Albanian guy.On 111 i am completely alone.Any thoughts if i should upgrade or maybe someone from the EV13 experts here can help me to realize where i belong?

Do you mind sending me via DM your STR results? Samples from private databases may not appear in public str matches databases.

Avraam Kyriakidis
04-14-2022, 10:49 PM
Do you mind sending me via DM your STR results? Samples from private databases may not appear in public str matches databases.

Not sure if that can help you.


DYS393 DYS390 DYS19 ** DYS391 DYS385 DYS426 DYS388 DYS439 DYS389I DYS392 DYS389II ***
Value 13 24 13 10 16-18 11 12 12 13 11 30
PANEL 2 (13-25)
Marker DYS458 DYS459 DYS455 DYS454 DYS447 DYS437 DYS448 DYS449 DYS464
Value 15 9-9-9 11 11 26 14 20 32 14-16-16-16-17-17
PANEL 3 (26-37)
Marker DYS460 Y-GATA-H4 YCAII DYS456 DYS607 DYS576 DYS570 CDY DYS442 DYS438
Value 9 10 19-20 16 12 17 20 32-34-34 11 10
PANEL 4 (38-47)
Marker DYS531 DYS578 DYF395S1 DYS590 DYS537 DYS641 DYS472 DYF406S1 DYS511
Value 10 8 15-15 8 11 10 8 12 10
PANEL 4 (48-60)
Marker DYS425 DYS413 DYS557 DYS594 DYS436 DYS490 DYS534 DYS450 DYS444 DYS481 DYS520 DYS446
Value 0 * 22-24 20 11 12 12 19 7 12 23 18 12
PANEL 4 (61-67)
Marker DYS617 DYS568 DYS487 DYS572 DYS640 DYS492 DYS565
Value 11 12 14 11 11 11 11
PANEL 5 (68-75)
Marker DYS710 DYS485 DYS632 DYS495 DYS540 DYS714 DYS716 DYS717
Value 35 15 8 15 11 22 27 19
PANEL 5 (76-85)
Marker DYS505 DYS556 DYS549 DYS589 DYS522 DYS494 DYS533 DYS636 DYS575 DYS638
Value 13 12 12 11 12 9 12 11 10 11
PANEL 5 (86-93)
Marker DYS462 DYS452 DYS445 Y-GATA-A10 DYS463 DYS441 Y-GGAAT-1B07 DYS525
Value 12 31 10 13 18 14 12 10
PANEL 5 (94-102)
Marker DYS712 DYS593 DYS650 DYS532 DYS715 DYS504 DYS513 DYS561 DYS552
Value 19 16 20 12 24 13 12 16 23
PANEL 5 (103-111)
Marker DYS726 DYS635 DYS587 DYS643 DYS497 DYS510 DYS434 DYS461 DYS435
Value 14 21 18 12 15 17 9 13 11

Riverman
04-14-2022, 11:33 PM
Not sure if that can help you.


You can also check yourself by simply typing your data into this calculator:
https://www.nevgen.org/

However, without testing the SNP level, it won't be, usually, your terminal clade, but probably pretty close to it.

Avraam Kyriakidis
04-15-2022, 12:25 AM
You can also check yourself by simply typing your data into this calculator:
https://www.nevgen.org/

However, without testing the SNP level, it won't be, usually, your terminal clade, but probably pretty close to it.

Well,it dosn't say much.Just that i belong to EV13. (E1b1b > V13)
Would you say that EV13 is specifically associated to Thracians/Dacians?I am really wondering what people are responsible for its spread in Greece,South Italy etc.When it comes to Albania i guess it arrived there with the Albanian migration probably during the medieval times from somehwere to modern Kosovo/Serbia not sure.So even in Albania it must be related to a thraco-dacian population rather Illyrians.

Bruzmi
04-15-2022, 12:41 AM
Well,it dosn't say much.Just that i belong to EV13. (E1b1b > V13)
Would you say that EV13 is specifically associated to Thracians/Dacians?I am really wondering what people are responsible for its spread in Greece,South Italy etc.When it comes to Albania i guess it arrived there with the Albanian migration probably during the medieval times from somehwere to modern Kosovo/Serbia not sure.So even in Albania it must be related to a thraco-dacian population rather Illyrians.
I would just say to you that we don't have any published studies from either core Illyrian, Dacian or Thracian areas, so it's better to just wait until they get out. From the modern samples we have, within the Balkans the triangle between Lake Shkodra basin - Kosovo and northern Albania/western Macedonia has a very high diversity of E-V13. In this very small region, E-V13 clades which branched out 3000-4000 years ago live in very close distances to each other. The rest is the subject of aDNA studies.

You should probably do WGS testing to get a deeper result.

Avraam Kyriakidis
04-15-2022, 12:51 AM
I would just say to you that we don't have any published studies from either core Illyrian, Dacian or Thracian areas, so it's better to just wait until they get out. From the modern samples we have, within the Balkans the triangle between Lake Shkodra basin - Kosovo and northern Albania/western Macedonia has a very high diversity of E-V13. In this very small region, E-V13 clades which branched out 3000-4000 years ago live in very close distances to each other. The rest is the subject of aDNA studies.

You should probably do WGS testing to get a deeper result.

I know.I am just saying it because Illyrians from the samples we got until now show mostly J2b.Also,we have a Bulgarian sample that it is EV13 right?

My theory is that EV13 played a major role for the ethnogenesis of Thraco-Dacians thats all.

Riverman
04-15-2022, 01:01 AM
Well,it dosn't say much.Just that i belong to EV13. (E1b1b > V13)
Would you say that EV13 is specifically associated to Thracians/Dacians?I am really wondering what people are responsible for its spread in Greece,South Italy etc.When it comes to Albania i guess it arrived there with the Albanian migration probably during the medieval times from somehwere to modern Kosovo/Serbia not sure.So even in Albania it must be related to a thraco-dacian population rather Illyrians.

I think we can say almost for sure that E-V13 spread with Eastern Urnfield related groups and cremation, mostly Gáva, Belegis II-Gáva and Psenichevo-Basarabi which grew out of it. These are probably Proto-Thracian and Thracian cultures respectively, but like you can hear from Bruzmi, not all people agree and without actual results from many more places and times, its not yet finally proven.

Its however clear that along the Danube and Tisza river E-V13 was strong in the later Iron Age and into the migration period, this is already evident from the results we have.

Also, some E-V13 seem to have joined steppe groups, one way or another, and made it as far as Northern China.

However, I also think that it was present in Greeks since the Late Bronze Age, but that's again something which needs to be proven, since the presence of specific Carpathian pottery styles and weapons doesn't prove that E-V13 carriers brought it and even less that they survived. Its likely, but not proven yet.

I wonder about your result, because usually some subclade can be determined, at least something like whether you are e.g. E-Z5018, E-Z5017 or the like. Just E-V13 without any subclade, not even low probability, is more rare I guess. It probably shows that your lineage was more isolated and initially thought?

If you really want something solid, you have to go for testing the SNP level, no way around it.

Avraam Kyriakidis
04-15-2022, 01:15 AM
I think we can say almost for sure that E-V13 spread with Eastern Urnfield related groups and cremation, mostly Gáva, Belegis II-Gáva and Psenichevo-Basarabi which grew out of it. These are probably Proto-Thracian and Thracian cultures respectively, but like you can hear from Bruzmi, not all people agree and without actual results from many more places and times, its not yet finally proven.

Its however clear that along the Danube and Tisza river E-V13 was strong in the later Iron Age and into the migration period, this is already evident from the results we have.

Also, some E-V13 seem to have joined steppe groups, one way or another, and made it as far as Northern China.

However, I also think that it was present in Greeks since the Late Bronze Age, but that's again something which needs to be proven, since the presence of specific Carpathian pottery styles and weapons doesn't prove that E-V13 carriers brought it and even less that they survived. Its likely, but not proven yet.

I wonder about your result, because usually some subclade can be determined, at least something like whether you are e.g. E-Z5018, E-Z5017 or the like. Just E-V13 without any subclade, not even low probability, is more rare I guess. It probably shows that your lineage was more isolated and initially thought?

If you really want something solid, you have to go for testing the SNP level, no way around it.

I am going to upgrade for big Y-700 and Yfull very soon.It seems to me a very interesting lineage and its def worth the upgrade.

Copperhead
04-15-2022, 01:44 PM
Well,it dosn't say much.Just that i belong to EV13. (E1b1b > V13)


Did you toggle the "subclades of E" button on the left top panel?

Avraam Kyriakidis
04-15-2022, 01:47 PM
Did you toggle the "subclades of E" button on the left top panel?

Yeah,dosnt' writes anything.I need to upgrade to show more.

Bane
04-15-2022, 01:58 PM
Not sure if that can help you.


DYS393 DYS390 DYS19 ** DYS391 DYS385 DYS426 DYS388 DYS439 DYS389I DYS392 DYS389II ***
Value 13 24 13 10 16-18 11 12 12 13 11 30
PANEL 2 (13-25)
Marker DYS458 DYS459 DYS455 DYS454 DYS447 DYS437 DYS448 DYS449 DYS464
Value 15 9-9-9 11 11 26 14 20 32 14-16-16-16-17-17
PANEL 3 (26-37)
Marker DYS460 Y-GATA-H4 YCAII DYS456 DYS607 DYS576 DYS570 CDY DYS442 DYS438
Value 9 10 19-20 16 12 17 20 32-34-34 11 10
PANEL 4 (38-47)
Marker DYS531 DYS578 DYF395S1 DYS590 DYS537 DYS641 DYS472 DYF406S1 DYS511
Value 10 8 15-15 8 11 10 8 12 10
PANEL 4 (48-60)
Marker DYS425 DYS413 DYS557 DYS594 DYS436 DYS490 DYS534 DYS450 DYS444 DYS481 DYS520 DYS446
Value 0 * 22-24 20 11 12 12 19 7 12 23 18 12
PANEL 4 (61-67)
Marker DYS617 DYS568 DYS487 DYS572 DYS640 DYS492 DYS565
Value 11 12 14 11 11 11 11
PANEL 5 (68-75)
Marker DYS710 DYS485 DYS632 DYS495 DYS540 DYS714 DYS716 DYS717
Value 35 15 8 15 11 22 27 19
PANEL 5 (76-85)
Marker DYS505 DYS556 DYS549 DYS589 DYS522 DYS494 DYS533 DYS636 DYS575 DYS638
Value 13 12 12 11 12 9 12 11 10 11
PANEL 5 (86-93)
Marker DYS462 DYS452 DYS445 Y-GATA-A10 DYS463 DYS441 Y-GGAAT-1B07 DYS525
Value 12 31 10 13 18 14 12 10
PANEL 5 (94-102)
Marker DYS712 DYS593 DYS650 DYS532 DYS715 DYS504 DYS513 DYS561 DYS552
Value 19 16 20 12 24 13 12 16 23
PANEL 5 (103-111)
Marker DYS726 DYS635 DYS587 DYS643 DYS497 DYS510 DYS434 DYS461 DYS435
Value 14 21 18 12 15 17 9 13 11


https://i.imgur.com/cogSNuC.png

Avraam Kyriakidis
04-15-2022, 02:01 PM
https://i.imgur.com/cogSNuC.png

What is this clade about?

Bane
04-15-2022, 02:32 PM
What is this clade about?

E-Z37873 is present in these countries: Albania, Ukraine, Romania, Greece, Turkey, Serbia, Macedonia, Bulgaria.
In Southeast Europe it was most probably spread by Thracians around 2500 years ago. Later as history went further, descendants of this subclade entered different nations as they emerged in the form known to us today.

Otherwise its distribution and history is not much different from many other E-V13 subclades found in Southeast Europe.

Riverman
04-15-2022, 03:07 PM
What is this clade about?

It really boils down to your exact subclade. Because this your rough branch below E-FGC11457:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y146086/

As you can see, its one Finnish, and two major Albanian ones. If its really E-Z37873, its closer to the Albanians, because that is the equivalent on YFull:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y140828/

Note however, that the Albanian branch is a recent founder effect result, the TMRCA of the whole branch is much older, its at 1.400 BC, that's at the very starting point of the major E-V13 expansion, even before the main spreading events!

On FTDNA you have less samples from this branch, like usually with the Albanian subclades, which upload more to YFull than using FTDNA, but you have one Albanian and one Macedonian in the branch:

https://i.ibb.co/sjBPwk2/E-Y146086-FTDNA.jpg

https://ibb.co/v1tBPgH

Note the big distance between the Macedonian and the Albanian.

If the Nevgen prediction is right, and you have no close Albanian matches, you are more likely to either form a branch with the Macedonian or having a branch of your own. Remember Albanians test more, yet the age of the subclade is very old (about 3.400 BP according to YFull, the FTDNA shows how old it is as well).
So far it looks like a Balkan branch, that much is clear, but anything beyond that needs to be explored - if you do the BigY, it helps to solve it.

rafc
04-15-2022, 03:33 PM
Hi, you might have noticed that in the E-M35 project we predict you to form a subclade with the Macedonian. In this same clade we also predict a Ukrainian, a Serbian, a Turkish person from Trabzon, a Bulgarian, a Romanian, and many Greeks (might be Pontic). Although I have to say none of the Albanians seem to be in our project, so I can't exclude they are closer to you.

Riverman
04-15-2022, 03:38 PM
Hi, you might have noticed that in the E-M35 project we predict you to form a subclade with the Macedonian. In this same clade we also predict a Ukrainian, a Serbian, a Turkish person from Trabzon, a Bulgarian, a Romanian, and many Greeks (might be Pontic). Although I have to say none of the Albanians seem to be in our project, so I can't exclude they are closer to you.

If the Albanians would be closer, he should have them as (closer) STR matches, because their branch age is really shallow, a very recent founder effect. I guess him being closer to the Albanian branch is very unlikely for many reasons, but it can't be excluded 100 percent without further testing of course.

Avraam Kyriakidis
04-15-2022, 05:15 PM
If the Albanians would be closer, he should have them as (closer) STR matches, because their branch age is really shallow, a very recent founder effect. I guess him being closer to the Albanian branch is very unlikely for many reasons, but it can't be excluded 100 percent without further testing of course.

OK, with a few words my lineage is associated with an Albanian/Arvanite migration during medieval times. Can you tell me why my autosomal is mostly west asian and i score zero steppe admixture like mainland Greeks and Albanians? Also, my matches on Ftdna are mostly Pontic Greeks and Turks with also Pontic ancestry. I barely see any Balkan match. What is the explenation behind this?

Avraam Kyriakidis
04-15-2022, 05:27 PM
This is my G25 coordinates and gedmatch kit for those who are interested.

AKyriakidis_scaled,0.1161,0.146236,-0.064111,-0.072998,-0.025543,-0.024821,0.00235,0,-0.038246,0.005649,-0.001786,0.003897,-0.006541,0.001376,-0.012486,-0.009812,0.008736,-0.008361,0.001257,0.000125,-0.000873,0.003215,-0.000739,-0.014339,0.00467

BG5335297

Bane
04-15-2022, 06:04 PM
OK, with a few words my lineage is associated with an Albanian/Arvanite migration during medieval times.

That is not likely.

Riverman
04-15-2022, 06:13 PM
OK, with a few words my lineage is associated with an Albanian/Arvanite migration during medieval times.

Not necessarily, because the Albanians are in an exclusive subclade, which has such a recent timing and founder effect. But others can be much further back in time, like you see the Macedonian and the samples rafc spoke about, which are all rather distant from the Albanian subclade.
We can't say it for sure right now, because you need to determine your terminal SNP/exact subclade.

I would only guess that you are closer to the Albanians, if you have a lot of very recent STR matches from that branch. But STR is not safe either, because I have people which match me closer on STR but are more distant in reality and vice versa. Only high level matches are usually more accurate, like 67 and 111, if they have a good distance.


On Y67 i am matching a kosovar Albanian guy.On 111 i am completely alone.Any thoughts if i should upgrade or maybe someone from the EV13 experts here can help me to realize where i belong?

What's the distance?


Can you tell me why my autosomal is mostly west asian and i score zero steppe admixture like mainland Greeks and Albanians? Also, my matches on Ftdna are mostly Pontic Greeks and Turks with also Pontic ancestry. I barely see any Balkan match. What is the explenation behind this?

It's not safe to say at the moment to which branch you really belong. You might be in the Albanian or not and will only know if testing the SNP. However, imagine you would belong to the Albanian branch and your latest common ancestor lived about 1.000 years ago and he soon moved into Pontic/Anatolian region. Its possible to likely that you inherited nothing but the y-chromosome from this ancestor. I mean look at 5th cousins - with some we share, with some we don't. 7th cousins? It gets thinner and thinner. Yet these are much closer than what we're talking about here.
After centuries, even the best calculator can't detect what's no longer there. We all have paternal/maternal ancestors of which we ONLY got the y-chromosome or mitochondrial DNA and NOTHING ELSE. Just think about it, if a man and his male descendents marry into a local community for dozens of generations.

1.000 years = about 30-40 generations on average. There will remain nothing autosomally. And I'm not starting to talk about calculators and ancestry estimates which often miss the ethnicity/ancestral input of a great-grandparent (!). 30-40 generations, that's quite a lot. Even 10-15 generations are enough to completely eliminate any traceable ancestry. Its possible to get nothing, not a single segment, from such remote ancestors. Yet if its the paternal/maternal ancestor, you still have your haplogroups from them.

Avraam Kyriakidis
04-15-2022, 06:16 PM
That is not likely.

What you think???If its medieval then the most likely senario is to arrived either from Greece or Albania during byzantine or ottoman times.I can't imagine anything else.If it goes from LBA/IA period or classical times it can easily be Greek,Thracian or even Sea people i would say.

Avraam Kyriakidis
04-15-2022, 06:24 PM
Not necessarily, because the Albanians are in an exclusive subclade, which has such a recent timing and founder effect. But others can be much further back in time, like you see the Macedonian and the samples rafc spoke about, which are all rather distant from the Albanian subclade.
We can't say it for sure right now, because you need to determine your terminal SNP/exact subclade.

I would only guess that you are closer to the Albanians, if you have a lot of very recent STR matches from that branch. But STR is not safe either, because I have people which match me closer on STR but are more distant in reality and vice versa. Only high level matches are usually more accurate, like 67 and 111, if they have a good distance.



What's the distance?



It's not safe to say at the moment to which branch you really belong. You might be in the Albanian or not and will only know if testing the SNP. However, imagine you would belong to the Albanian branch and your latest common ancestor lived about 1.000 years ago and he soon moved into Pontic/Anatolian region. Its possible to likely that you inherited nothing but the y-chromosome from this ancestor. I mean look at 5th cousins - with some we share, with some we don't. 7th cousins? It gets thinner and thinner. Yet these are much closer than what we're talking about here.
After centuries, even the best calculator can't detect what's no longer there. We all have paternal/maternal ancestors of which we ONLY got the y-chromosome or mitochondrial DNA and NOTHING ELSE. Just think about it, if a man and his male descendents marry into a local community for dozens of generations.

1.000 years = about 30-40 generations on average. There will remain nothing autosomally. And I'm not starting to talk about calculators and ancestry estimates which often miss the ethnicity/ancestral input of a great-grandparent (!). 30-40 generations, that's quite a lot. Even 10-15 generations are enough to completely eliminate any traceable ancestry. Its possible to get nothing, not a single segment, from such remote ancestors. Yet if its the paternal/maternal ancestor, you still have your haplogroups from them.

I see.Thanks a lot for your explanation and analysis.

With the Kosovar Albanian guy we have Genetic Distance 7 steps.He belongs to E-FGC11450.

Keep in mind that when it comes on 111 markers i am completely alone.Isn't it a little bit weird?

Bane
04-15-2022, 06:25 PM
What you think???If its medieval then the most likely senario is to arrived either from Greece or Albania during byzantine or ottoman times.I can't imagine anything else.If it goes from LBA/IA period or classical times it can easily be Greek,Thracian or even Sea people i would say.

The distance between you and Albanians is yet to be determined. We don't know if connection is medieval. Actually, since your subclade is present in almost all countries in Southeast Europe it points to more distant time at which it would reach Anatolia. My guess is that your lineage should be present in Anatolia since before Common era.

Riverman
04-15-2022, 06:35 PM
What you think???If its medieval then the most likely senario is to arrived either from Greece or Albania during byzantine or ottoman times.I can't imagine anything else.If it goes from LBA/IA period or classical times it can easily be Greek,Thracian or even Sea people i would say.

That's the point. Before you can't be sure about your exact branch, you don't know. The STR can go wrong on your subclade assignment. Not your basic one usually, but here we're talking about fairly close branches in any case.

We can guess around, like I would guessimate that the Albanian and Macedonian branch split around 2.500-2.000 BP. That's about the time from classical Greece to Imperial Rome. Question is, whether the distance to the Kosovan would allow that age? Most might say that a closer STR 67 match should be too close for that, but I'm not as sure.

That's the FTDNA table for possible relationships based on STR distance:
https://learn.familytreedna.com/y-dna-testing/y-str/expected-relationship-match/

At 67, 4 and below should mean something, 5-6 can mean something, anything above (> 7) is not very likely to match within the last 15 generations. That's why I asked to look into your genetic distance to the match from Kosovo.

Another option would be you form a subclade with the Albanians, instead of the Macedonian and others, but you split off earlier than most of the Albanians, like let's say 1.500 years ago, in Late Antiquity. There are really a lot of options, unless someone jumps in and says that your STR distance is too close to the Kosovan. But even then, has he made a BigY test? Because if not, you don't know to which exact subclade he belongs - it would make Albanian more likely, but not necessarily the main known branch.

Edit: I see, distance 7 is exactly borderline, but its not nothing. I think you are closer to the Albanian lineage then, but how close, like whether you actually fall into that branch with the Albanians, or being parellel and left somewhat earlier (e.g. Late Antiquity), that's again hard to determine.
In any case, I wouldn't wonder if you are closer to this individual than to the Macedonian branch. Too bad he seems to only have tested the SNP and did no BigY I guess.

Avraam Kyriakidis
04-15-2022, 06:43 PM
That's the point. Before you can't be sure about your exact branch, you don't know. The STR can go wrong on your subclade assignment. Not your basic one usually, but here we're talking about fairly close branches in any case.

We can guess around, like I would guessimate that the Albanian and Macedonian branch split around 2.500-2.000 BP. That's about the time from classical Greece to Imperial Rome. Question is, whether the distance to the Kosovan would allow that age? Most might say that a closer STR 67 match should be too close for that, but I'm not as sure.

That's the FTDNA table for possible relationships based on STR distance:
https://learn.familytreedna.com/y-dna-testing/y-str/expected-relationship-match/

At 67, 4 and below should mean something, 5-6 can mean something, anything above (> 7) is not very likely to match within the last 15 generations. That's why I asked to look into your genetic distance to the match from Kosovo.

Another option would be you form a subclade with the Albanians, instead of the Macedonian and others, but you split off earlier than most of the Albanians, like let's say 1.500 years ago, in Late Antiquity. There are really a lot of options, unless someone jumps in and says that your STR distance is too close to the Kosovan. But even then, has he made a BigY test? Because if not, you don't know to which exact subclade he belongs - it would make Albanian more likely, but not necessarily the main known branch.

Thank you for your support.I am waiting for Easter sales and i am going to upgrade it on yFULL.Things will be more clear i guess...

Riverman
04-15-2022, 06:46 PM
I see.Thanks a lot for your explanation and analysis.

With the Kosovar Albanian guy we have Genetic Distance 7 steps.He belongs to E-FGC11450.

Keep in mind that when it comes on 111 markers i am completely alone.Isn't it a little bit weird?

I have no high matches, but many jump around on the lower level, like some appear on that level, but disappear on the next and so on. Its also similar for some people I have looked into their results. In this case it just shows that you are definitely not that closely related to this individual, because otherwise he would pop up at 111 too.
But then again, 7 at 67 is no safe starting point, but its not nothing either, which means it tips things somewhat more in favour of a closer relationship to the Albanian branch. Even if you might be rather parallel and depart earlier than the other Albanian testers.


Thank you for your support.I am waiting for Easter sales and i am going to upgrade it on yFULL.Things will be more clear i guess...

Good decision in any case!

Bruzmi
04-15-2022, 10:23 PM
Some stats:

Under E-Y146086, there are 52 samples in the database of Project Rrënjët. Some of them have been uploaded to yfull, but 21/52 have not tested deeper than the E-Y146086 level. Geographically, those who have not tested deeper are in southern/northern Rep. of Albania, Kosovo and western N. Macedonia (one sample from Shkupi/Skopje). I don't know if they would form new subclades or if they would increase the TMRCA of existing branches.

rafc
04-16-2022, 08:27 AM
I see.Thanks a lot for your explanation and analysis.

With the Kosovar Albanian guy we have Genetic Distance 7 steps.He belongs to E-FGC11450.

Keep in mind that when it comes on 111 markers i am completely alone.Isn't it a little bit weird?

Hi, your distance with our members from that clade is 18-23, which is above the threshold for FTDNA to show as a match. I think most of the Albanians who tested did so through Dante Labs and Yseq, so I'm not sure any of them has 111 markers at FTDNA. Your match for example has only tested up to 67, so he cannot match you at 111.
Great news about the Big Y, looking forward to the results!

Kelmendasi
04-16-2022, 09:13 PM
We can guess around, like I would guessimate that the Albanian and Macedonian branch split around 2.500-2.000 BP. That's about the time from classical Greece to Imperial Rome.
Interestingly the Macedonian is from the city of Štip in the east of North Macedonia. It is generally agreed by linguists and scholars that the Slavic form Štip obtained its form via Albanian transmission from Shtip, which itself developed from the earlier name Astibos known in antiquity. It can be inferred from this, and other evidence, that there was at least a Proto-Albanian presence in the region prior to the arrival of the Slavs. This may be of interest when theorising the origin of E-Y146086 in these cases.

Of course, this is not a conclusive view as it presupposes things such as the patrilineal ancestors of the Macedonian having lived in the vicinity continuously since antiquity, it is more just an observation based on rather circumstantial evidence.

Avraam Kyriakidis
04-16-2022, 10:25 PM
Interestingly the Macedonian is from the city of Štip in the east of North Macedonia. It is generally agreed by linguists and scholars that the Slavic form Štip obtained its form via Albanian transmission from Shtip, which itself developed from the earlier name Astibos known in antiquity. It can be inferred from this, and other evidence, that there was at least a Proto-Albanian presence in the region prior to the arrival of the Slavs. This may be of interest when theorising the origin of E-Y146086 in these cases.

Of course, this is not a conclusive view as it presupposes things such as the patrilineal ancestors of the Macedonian having lived in the vicinity continuously since antiquity, it is more just an observation based on rather circumstantial evidence.

Albanians migrated from somewhere to modern North Macedonia/Kosovo in modern Albania?

Kelmendasi
04-16-2022, 11:15 PM
Albanians migrated from somewhere to modern North Macedonia/Kosovo in modern Albania?
The topic is still heavily contested and up for debate although I do believe that the early origins of Proto-Albanian should be sought in historical Dardania which extended from the fringes of north-eastern Albania, eastern Montenegro, northern North Macedonia, the entirety of Kosovo, and parts of eastern and south-eastern Serbia. I believe that Proto-Albanian then expanded and had been established in much of modern Albania by antiquity at the very least, most certainly prior to the arrival of the Slavs.

Astibos (modern Štip) was located outside of Dardania in Paeonia which suggests that there were eastern Proto-Albanian expansions as well as western movements.

Riverman
04-16-2022, 11:20 PM
Interestingly the Macedonian is from the city of Štip in the east of North Macedonia. It is generally agreed by linguists and scholars that the Slavic form Štip obtained its form via Albanian transmission from Shtip, which itself developed from the earlier name Astibos known in antiquity. It can be inferred from this, and other evidence, that there was at least a Proto-Albanian presence in the region prior to the arrival of the Slavs. This may be of interest when theorising the origin of E-Y146086 in these cases.

Of course, this is not a conclusive view as it presupposes things such as the patrilineal ancestors of the Macedonian having lived in the vicinity continuously since antiquity, it is more just an observation based on rather circumstantial evidence.

That makes perfect sense, because the Albanian and the Macedonian branch while being still quite distant come close to the historical era, and share 11 SNP. A historical time split of an Illyrian or Thracian clan would make perfect sense. The other upstream branches of that main clade are much more distant from each other, like Bronze Age distant.


Albanians migrated from somewhere to modern North Macedonia/Kosovo in modern Albania?

What we see in some of these cases are primarily patrilineages and clans. The direction of the gene flow, like in this case from Thracians to Illyrians or vice versa, or even from a different source, is impossible to know for a given time unless there is a lot of data.

My theory of Thracian being basically E-V13 comes from the huge amount of data pointing to the respective splits and branching events, with a series of founder effects, in the LBA-EIA transition primarily. You need a Late Bronze Age expansive culture to explain that, and Channelled Ware is the most likely candidate given the near total overlap in distribution and expansion for all crucial periods and regions.

But soon after that, many of the Urnfield and Channelled Ware groups got assimilated into different ethnicities and local cultures, which makes it difficult to assess the direction of gene flow in cases like this. Could have gone from Macedonia to Albania or vicer versa, or even from a completely different source region to both. The only thing we can say is that a very far away place of origin is rather unlikely considering the timing and current distribution. But who knows for sure as of yet.


The topic is still heavily contested and up for debate although I do believe that the early origins of Proto-Albanian should be sought in historical Dardania which extended from the fringes of north-eastern Albania, eastern Montenegro, northern North Macedonia, the entirety of Kosovo, and parts of eastern and south-eastern Serbia. I believe that Proto-Albanian then expanded and had been established in much of modern Albania by antiquity at the very least, most certainly prior to the arrival of the Slavs.

Astibos (modern Štip) was located outside of Dardania in Paeonia which suggests that there were eastern Proto-Albanian expansions as well as western movements.

Dardanians would be a perfect fit because they bring both Illyrian and Thracian/Channelled Ware lineages together. While Channelled Ware was present in other parts of Albania too, I doubt the current high frequeny in Albanians could be explained without a more Northern input from closer to the Danube and/or Thrace. The Dardanians were in the perfect spot to receive enough influences from both.

Avraam Kyriakidis
04-16-2022, 11:58 PM
The topic is still heavily contested and up for debate although I do believe that the early origins of Proto-Albanian should be sought in historical Dardania which extended from the fringes of north-eastern Albania, eastern Montenegro, northern North Macedonia, the entirety of Kosovo, and parts of eastern and south-eastern Serbia. I believe that Proto-Albanian then expanded and had been established in much of modern Albania by antiquity at the very least, most certainly prior to the arrival of the Slavs.

Astibos (modern Štip) was located outside of Dardania in Paeonia which suggests that there were eastern Proto-Albanian expansions as well as western movements.

Crazy that Albanians escaped from the Roman/Byzantine influence and also later from the Slavic invasion and kept their dialect and also yDNA alive.I think the mountainous landscape of balkans helped to it.

Trojet
04-17-2022, 01:34 PM
https://i.ibb.co/sjBPwk2/E-Y146086-FTDNA.jpg


We can guess around, like I would guessimate that the Albanian and Macedonian branch split around 2.500-2.000 BP. That's about the time from classical Greece to Imperial Rome.


That makes perfect sense, because the Albanian and the Macedonian branch while being still quite distant come close to the historical era, and share 11 SNP. A historical time split of an Illyrian or Thracian clan would make perfect sense. The other upstream branches of that main clade are much more distant from each other, like Bronze Age distant.

Going by YFull's methodology of age estimates (private variants), the TMRCA between the Albanians and the Macedonian from Štip should be in the range of 1300-1600 ybp, so after Illyrian and Thracian period, and in line with other "Paleo-Balkan" clusters which mostly show Late Antiquity/Early Medieval expansions.

IMO, in this case, it's premature to say where the MRCA lived, but likely somewhere in between these two regions. The sample from Štip could even represent a (late) Medieval migration from further West, as currently there is no regional diversity in and around Štip, and so it's hard to say how long it's been there..

Riverman
04-17-2022, 02:51 PM
Going by YFull's methodology of age estimates (private variants), the TMRCA between the Albanians and the Macedonian from Štip should be in the range of 1300-1600 ybp, so after Illyrian and Thracian period, and in line with other "Paleo-Balkan" clusters which mostly show Late Antiquity/Early Medieval expansions.

IMO, in this case, it's premature to say where the MRCA lived, but likely somewhere in between these two regions. The sample from Štip could even represent a (late) Medieval migration from further West, as currently there is no regional diversity in and around Štip, and so it's hard to say how long it's been there..

The problem with the estimate in this case is that at least one, probably both, did just the BigY 700.
You see the difference to the Finns and the upstream branches. The question is, among others, whether additionally tested SNP would add to the shared branch or increase the distance.
I rather assumed the latter and used the upstream standard as reference, because the Finnish branch looks overblown.
That's why I said guessimate, its difficult with those test mixes of 500 vs 700.

Bruzmi
04-17-2022, 04:17 PM
Going by YFull's methodology of age estimates (private variants), the TMRCA between the Albanians and the Macedonian from Štip should be in the range of 1300-1600 ybp, so after Illyrian and Thracian period, and in line with other "Paleo-Balkan" clusters which mostly show Late Antiquity/Early Medieval expansions.

IMO, in this case, it's premature to say where the MRCA lived, but likely somewhere in between these two regions. The sample from Štip could even represent a (late) Medieval migration from further West, as currently there is no regional diversity in and around Štip, and so it's hard to say how long it's been there..

Lack of increased diversity west of Macedonia is the biggest argument against any strong presence of E-V13 in the eastern Balkans, hence why it's difficult to assume that E-V13 could have been the major haplogroup in the pre-Roman eastern Balkans. This is can be further corroborated by the biography of eastern Balkan samples. I've noticed several Bulgarian samples which have an origin from Macedonia or from eastern Serbia. On the other hand, if E-V13 was a major haplogroup of the western/central Balkans in the pre-Roman era this doesn't necessarily exclude a more eastern presence e.g. the settlement of 20,000 Autariatae (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autariatae) by Phillip of Macedon in the Belasica (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belasica) mountains.

Latest version of phylogeographer's diversity heatmap:

https://i.ibb.co/b7H8vY9/EV131001.png


Of course, all of these tools are indirect, hypotheses are just hypotheses and only aDNA will be able to provide answers. Are there any news about the "southern Arc" paper?

Riverman
04-17-2022, 04:40 PM
YFull is a bad reference especially for the Central and Eastern Balkans with the exception of Albanians. Any diversity map made of FTDNA would look different.
But agreed, we need ancient DNA...

Aspar
04-17-2022, 05:17 PM
Going by YFull's methodology of age estimates (private variants), the TMRCA between the Albanians and the Macedonian from Štip should be in the range of 1300-1600 ybp, so after Illyrian and Thracian period, and in line with other "Paleo-Balkan" clusters which mostly show Late Antiquity/Early Medieval expansions.

IMO, in this case, it's premature to say where the MRCA lived, but likely somewhere in between these two regions. The sample from Štip could even represent a (late) Medieval migration from further West, as currently there is no regional diversity in and around Štip, and so it's hard to say how long it's been there..

With all due respect Trojet but you are talking as if the whole population of Shtip had been tested to date.
In fact, along with this guy there are only a few more people tested from the region that I know of and that's it.
The Macedonians together with the Vlachs and probably the Greeks are among the people that are the least tested in the Balkans.
There is no comparison when it comes to that with the Albanians, the Serbs and even the Bulgarians.

Pribislav
04-17-2022, 11:27 PM
Are there any news about the "southern Arc" paper?

The only news is that "Southern Arc" paper has been split into three separate papers that will be published in the same issue of Science.

rafc
04-18-2022, 07:45 AM
The only news is that "Southern Arc" paper has been split into three separate papers that will be published in the same issue of Science.

Enough material for 3 papers, now it sounds even better :-)

The title "The genetic history of the Southern Arc: a bridge between West Asia and Europe" seemed to point more to a paper about Mediterranean Islands and East Med ancestry than one about the Balkans, while the leaks pointed to a Balkans paper. So I guess two of the papers will focus on those two parts, and the third remains a mystery.

peloponnesian
04-18-2022, 10:40 AM
Enough material for 3 papers, now it sounds even better :-)

The title "The genetic history of the Southern Arc: a bridge between West Asia and Europe" seemed to point more to a paper about Mediterranean Islands and East Med ancestry than one about the Balkans, while the leaks pointed to a Balkans paper. So I guess two of the papers will focus on those two parts, and the third remains a mystery.

Maybe the third is the Danubian Limes paper?

ShpataEMadhe
04-18-2022, 10:57 AM
The topic is still heavily contested and up for debate although I do believe that the early origins of Proto-Albanian should be sought in historical Dardania which extended from the fringes of north-eastern Albania, eastern Montenegro, northern North Macedonia, the entirety of Kosovo, and parts of eastern and south-eastern Serbia. I believe that Proto-Albanian then expanded and had been established in much of modern Albania by antiquity at the very least, most certainly prior to the arrival of the Slavs.

Astibos (modern Štip) was located outside of Dardania in Paeonia which suggests that there were eastern Proto-Albanian expansions as well as western movements.

I believe the early origins of proto albanians are along the coast of albania in ancient cities like durres (dyrrachium) and then spread south and north east from there. A spread from kosovo/macedonia towards albania doesnt make sense with the lack of j2b l283 in the south as the biggest push would have been southward (opposite end). A lot of kosovo albanian genetics look like recent founder effects from north albanians that moved there recently (a few hundred years ago)

"Anastasius was born at Dyrrachium; the date is unknown, but is thought to have been no later than 431. He was born into an Illyrian family."

Also, the history of kosovo is that it was mostly a south slavic region in the 1300s. It was actually south albanian clans (Muzaka family) that fought in the battle of kosovo in 1389 against the ottoman which means not many north albanians were living there at the time -
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kosovo

rafc
04-18-2022, 11:09 AM
Maybe the third is the Danubian Limes paper?

The Danubian Limes paper was submitted separately to Nature, these three will appear in Science.

Avraam Kyriakidis
04-18-2022, 11:43 AM
The Danubian Limes paper was submitted separately to Nature, these three will appear in Science.

Do you know what period/chronology these 3 papers will focus on?

Rrenjet.
04-18-2022, 11:45 AM
Regarding the new result from Stip under E-Y140828 (https://rrenjet.com/e-fgc11450/#E-Y146086Y140828), one thing to be remembered is that only a part of overall Albanian diversity, mostly from Laberi, is on YFull. In fact our northern Albanian members have more diverse STR haplotypes, but unfortunately none of them wants to pay for the upgrade. As the Macedonian is only one SNP apart from the rest, it is very possible that if other Albanians (especially from the North) upgrade they may fall outside the new Y146090 group.