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Vognejar
09-20-2021, 12:55 PM
Are there any hypotheses regarding the early Slavs and J-M12?
At the moment, I was considering my branch J-M12 and it seems to me that before my branch split into Western and Eastern Slavs, it could be associated with the Adriatic "VENEDI". Later I will lay out my map and the map of the distribution of this ethnonym.

In the Balkans, our haplogroup seems to be associated with the ancient Romans who lived in the Balkans, on the border of the Roman Empire, and the Weneds are mentioned in the context of "friendly to the Romans" (translated from the latin language). They originated from the territory of modern Turkey, where the "Enets" lived. In turn, the "Enets" lived in the territory where the people "kasks" once lived, which are related to the Hutts (who had many J2 branches). The opinion of experts on this issue is curious.

Since, the second version is the Illyrians, which is based on the fact that our haplogroup is widespread among the Albanians, whom I personally believe that they are reasonably considered the descendants of the Illyrians.

Another version is the Thracians from the territory of Ukraine, who joined the peoples of the sea.

Vognejar
10-09-2021, 08:39 AM
Updated the map of its branch of haplogroup J2b

https://a.radikal.ru/a05/2110/b6/5fdbc61025cd.jpg

ShpataEMadhe
10-22-2021, 09:58 AM
It is not yet possible to conclude that j2b l283 was illyrian. Lack of l283 in places like bosnia and greece makes me think it may have been something that came from across the sea (italy). Thracian theory should also be looked into

What i would say is J people usually have long or hooked noses. J2b l283 being illyrian is possible, look at the length of Gentius and Ballaeus nose

slavomirski
11-09-2021, 01:58 AM
Hi,

I am from Pinsk, Belarus and belong to a paternal Polish lineage. My DNA test showed that my haplogroup is J-Z631. My G25 coordinates are Slavomir_scaled,0.121791,0.117801,0.069767,0.05717 1,0.028005,0.024263,0.008225,0.017538,-0.008795,-0.027153,-0.003573,-0.013638,0.010109,0.021332,0.002443,-0.007955,-0.009779,0.000253,0.001634,-0.00075,-0.00287,-0.005193,0.009613,0.000843,-0.002874

Kastrati
11-09-2021, 03:08 AM
It is not yet possible to conclude that j2b l283 was illyrian. Lack of l283 in places like bosnia and greece makes me think it may have been something that came from across the sea (italy). Thracian theory should also be looked into

What i would say is J people usually have long or hooked noses. J2b l283 being illyrian is possible, look at the length of Gentius and Ballaeus nose
The timing and locations of the ancient J2b2 samples we have so far, do fit the "Illyrianization" of the Dinaric Alps and Southern Italy, from the Northern Serbia sample, the Croatia sample, and then the Southern Italian samples. They're all several hundred years apart and it shows their ancient presence and spread into the Balkans and Italy. The Italian samples are younger than the Croatia & Hungary sample, so the theory of it coming from Italy doesn't seem plausible. Why it's not as widespread as E-V13 and R1b in Greeks, Italians, and South Slavs, is puzzling though. For whatever reason, it seems J2b2 wasn't as numerous / didn't expand as much as E-V13 and R1b.

Vognejar
11-09-2021, 08:31 AM
The timing and locations of the ancient J2b2 samples we have so far, do fit the "Illyrianization" of the Dinaric Alps and Southern Italy, from the Northern Serbia sample, the Croatia sample, and then the Southern Italian samples. They're all several hundred years apart and it shows their ancient presence and spread into the Balkans and Italy. The Italian samples are younger than the Croatia & Hungary sample, so the theory of it coming from Italy doesn't seem plausible. Why it's not as widespread as E-V13 and R1b in Greeks, Italians, and South Slavs, is puzzling though. For whatever reason, it seems J2b2 wasn't as numerous / didn't expand as much as E-V13 and R1b.

We can only say some facts from snips that the route was through Greece and the islands to the Balkans from the territory of modern Turkey since the Mesolithic times. More ancient - the northwestern Balkans and the time of the Etruscans - the territory of Rome. Then, with regard to the Slavs, we see that all Slavic lines entering Ukraine and Poland pass through Poland and probably through the Czech Republic. Correct me if this information has been updated or is inaccurate.

In connection with the above, I personally have three versions:
1. Italo-Celts (since the territories of distribution in Europe are associated with the ancient Italians and all J2b have an Etruscan snippet, while not all have the more ancient Croatian snip);
2. Illyrians - since the distribution is greatest among the Albanians are clear descendants of the Illyrians;
3. Thracians - since they were the majority among the peoples of the sea, whom we know in the northwestern Balkans (but there they seemed to be in the minority)

Polska
11-11-2021, 05:03 PM
Hi,

I am from Pinsk, Belarus and belong to a paternal Polish lineage. My DNA test showed that my haplogroup is J-Z631. My G25 coordinates are Slavomir_scaled,0.121791,0.117801,0.069767,0.05717 1,0.028005,0.024263,0.008225,0.017538,-0.008795,-0.027153,-0.003573,-0.013638,0.010109,0.021332,0.002443,-0.007955,-0.009779,0.000253,0.001634,-0.00075,-0.00287,-0.005193,0.009613,0.000843,-0.002874

Welcome Slavomirski!

You belong to the most numerous branch of L283, Z631. L283 is not common in Poland or amongst Slavs in general. Despite this fact, Poland has a fairly diverse representation of various L283 branches. This is discussed in detail by Hunter Provyn in the following link from his site, Phylogeographer:

https://phylogeographer.com/eleven-j-l283-lineages-of-poland/

If you’re on Facebook, I would strongly recommend joining the L283 Facebook page. It’s a good source of information and updates. There are several Polish L283s on that page as well.

Beyond that, I think this site is generally a good source of information as well. I tested back in 2008 and all I can tell you is that a lot has changed since then regarding our knowledge and understanding of L283. This is due to increased testing numbers and the ancient DNA revolution.

ShpataEMadhe
11-11-2021, 10:06 PM
The timing and locations of the ancient J2b2 samples we have so far, do fit the "Illyrianization" of the Dinaric Alps and Southern Italy, from the Northern Serbia sample, the Croatia sample, and then the Southern Italian samples. They're all several hundred years apart and it shows their ancient presence and spread into the Balkans and Italy. The Italian samples are younger than the Croatia & Hungary sample, so the theory of it coming from Italy doesn't seem plausible. Why it's not as widespread as E-V13 and R1b in Greeks, Italians, and South Slavs, is puzzling though. For whatever reason, it seems J2b2 wasn't as numerous / didn't expand as much as E-V13 and R1b.

But the issue is we have yet to find anything from illyria proper, these samples are a bit too far north and also dated too early to conclude that they are illyrian. Also, wasnt the recent one from slovenia found in a tumulus? As far as im aware tumuli were associated with italo celtic people?

Vognejar
11-30-2021, 01:07 PM
If we consider the Illyrian hypothesis, then I would divide it into two sub-hypotheses:

1. In the early period, the Proto-Illyrians spread very widely.
"1200BC (or perhaps earlier), some Illyrians begin a movement to Gaul, Spain, England, northern and central Italy, Poland and even Scandinavia.[3]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Illyrian_history#cite_note-3

2. The Illyrians could have become widespread by becoming in the service of Rome during the Roman Empire (the largest presence of J2 in Italy throughout history during this period).
https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/andvari5/78067063/77432/77432_900.jpg

Vognejar
12-03-2021, 09:09 AM
A little about the Italo-Celtic hypothesis.
If we start from the Etruscan snip of the haplogroup J2b, then this theory is also based on the area of ​​distribution. Among the Etruscans, R1b was the dominant component (according to various sources, up to 75%). And if we accept that the Etruscans are the ancient population of Italy, which did not come from anywhere (from Troy), which is confirmed by archeology, it turns out that it is quite logical to assume that if R1b are Celts, then J2b are some Italians who joined them as a result of the interaction of the population of Italy and the Balkans (the territory of migration J2b to the Balkans ran theoretically through Greece and the islands that are next to the territory of modern Turkey - eastern Anatolia). Since the beginning of the Etruscans in Italy is the appearance of writing, as well as the arrival of early Mithraism in Rome, it is very logical that the basis of these Italics was a written people with the influence of Mithraism, as well as ancient Greece (which is logical, because they came to Rome through it).

We know about the myths of the origin of the Etruscans from Troy. But for some reason, other tribes are not considered, such as the "Veneti", which, according to myths, originated precisely from the territories of J2 dominance in northern Turkey, and at the same time, the Venetian tribes were also Illyrian, which could unite the theory of the Italians and Illyrians in one concept.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4a/Iron_Age_Italy.svg/800px-Iron_Age_Italy.svg.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italic_peoples

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4e/Roman_Empire_with_praetorian_prefectures_in_400_AD .png/1280px-Roman_Empire_with_praetorian_prefectures_in_400_AD .png
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%B0%D 0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B5%D1 %84%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%82%D1%83%D1%80%D0%B0_%D0%98%D0% BB%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%B8

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/Migrazione_Italici.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_Italic_peoples

BeansGas
01-16-2022, 05:09 AM
Are there any hypotheses regarding the early Slavs and J-M12?
At the moment, I was considering my branch J-M12 and it seems to me that before my branch split into Western and Eastern Slavs, it could be associated with the Adriatic "VENEDI". Later I will lay out my map and the map of the distribution of this ethnonym.

In the Balkans, our haplogroup seems to be associated with the ancient Romans who lived in the Balkans, on the border of the Roman Empire, and the Weneds are mentioned in the context of "friendly to the Romans" (translated from the latin language). They originated from the territory of modern Turkey, where the "Enets" lived. In turn, the "Enets" lived in the territory where the people "kasks" once lived, which are related to the Hutts (who had many J2 branches). The opinion of experts on this issue is curious.

Since, the second version is the Illyrians, which is based on the fact that our haplogroup is widespread among the Albanians, whom I personally believe that they are reasonably considered the descendants of the Illyrians.

Another version is the Thracians from the territory of Ukraine, who joined the peoples of the sea.

So you are neither J2b2-M241 nor J2b1, that is crazy cool. I am inclined to the thought of J2b-Z593 (fatherlineage of your lineage and M241 ) being already preasent among indo europeans due to you and the Scot of Aberdeenshire, but also J-Y167175 somehow migrating south all the way to Yemem?Before that at J2b-Z534 you have downstream J2b-Y47134 present in high numbers in Yemem, Oman and surrounding countries with quite a bit of diversity, I have no idea how that came to be. But the center of dispersion of J2b* is likely at the Zagros mts anyway.

Vognejar
01-17-2022, 06:47 AM
So you are neither J2b2-M241 nor J2b1, that is crazy cool. I am inclined to the thought of J2b-Z593 (fatherlineage of your lineage and M241 ) being already preasent among indo europeans due to you and the Scot of Aberdeenshire, but also J-Y167175 somehow migrating south all the way to Yemem?Before that at J2b-Z534 you have downstream J2b-Y47134 present in high numbers in Yemem, Oman and surrounding countries with quite a bit of diversity, I have no idea how that came to be. But the center of dispersion of J2b* is likely at the Zagros mts anyway.


The place of origin of J2b is eastern Anatolia (it must be understood that this was the Mesolithic according to snips). Of the modern populations with a large distribution of J2b are the Kurds, their history has different concepts, but it is impossible to deny the Iranian and more ancient local component. As for my branch, it is related to J-M241 and its Etruscan snip hints at a Celtic-Illyrian origin in the northwestern Balkans. It shows well the area of ​​​​distribution of a related branch in the Balkans of Etruscan-Illyrian origin.

48067

48068

48069

The Yemeni-Turkish snip indicates the Middle Ages and rather the distribution is associated with ancient Rome. Possibly a wine trade
48070

48071

The amber path led to the early Slavs. And the Celtic line in Scotland is still a mystery, and the easiest way is to spread with ancient Rome. But the Illyrians could get there much earlier than ancient Rome. Also, the Illyrians were subject to Celticization long before the ancient Romans.

Another version suggests that the Scythians ended up in Scotland, which sounds very fantastic and does not correspond to the general movement of the J2b haplogroup, which, as you know, unlike J2a, did not go to Europe, through the Caucasus.

Vognejar
01-17-2022, 07:12 AM
Proto-Illyrians are very interesting, as we can see, uniting the Celts, Proto-Slavs and Balkan populations.

48072

48073

48074

In the Proto-Illyrian context, Etruscan J-L283 is also very interesting. The writing of the Etruscans is still largely a mystery, just like the Illyrian languages, about which linguists have little idea. Perhaps this connection between the northwestern Balkans and the Etruscans should also be reflected in their languages. And on whose side were the proto-Illyrians in the catastrophe of the Bronze Age? On the one hand, we know about the Illyrians as pirates and sailors, which is consistent with the way of life of the peoples of the sea. On the other hand, did the peoples of the sea fight with their brothers on the territory of modern Turkey? Could the Etruscan pirates create the Etruscan civilization? Who are these J2 (20%) in imperial ancient rome?

Modern archeology considers the Etruscans local and all that has changed with the Etruscan period is the appearance of writing. And the population, apparently, was the same with the dominance of R1b.

BeansGas
01-18-2022, 03:36 AM
The place of origin of J2b is eastern Anatolia (it must be understood that this was the Mesolithic according to snips). Of the modern populations with a large distribution of J2b are the Kurds, their history has different concepts, but it is impossible to deny the Iranian and more ancient local component. As for my branch, it is related to J-M241 and its Etruscan snip hints at a Celtic-Illyrian origin in the northwestern Balkans. It shows well the area of ​​​​distribution of a related branch in the Balkans of Etruscan-Illyrian origin.

48067

48068

48069

The Yemeni-Turkish snip indicates the Middle Ages and rather the distribution is associated with ancient Rome. Possibly a wine trade
48070

48071

The amber path led to the early Slavs. And the Celtic line in Scotland is still a mystery, and the easiest way is to spread with ancient Rome. But the Illyrians could get there much earlier than ancient Rome. Also, the Illyrians were subject to Celticization long before the ancient Romans.

Another version suggests that the Scythians ended up in Scotland, which sounds very fantastic and does not correspond to the general movement of the J2b haplogroup, which, as you know, unlike J2a, did not go to Europe, through the Caucasus.

So you think it is unlikely J2b got to europe trough the caucasus >> pontic steppe>> danube , hungary route? I of course am not sure of how it got to europe but that sounds like the most likely to me given how frequent it was on north Illyrians and those were Indo european in origin(mostly coming from paternal lineages likely). J2b1 clades seem to not have taken part on that tho. Some J2a clades might have migrated with the indo europeans trought a north of the black sea route too. I am J2b-L283 by the way. The one thing about your clade is that it is not under L283 so that makes me wonder if L283 mutation hapened already in europe(likely pontic - caspian region) wich would also explain how your clade is present in Iran.

Vognejar
01-18-2022, 02:24 PM
So you think it is unlikely J2b got to europe trough the caucasus >> pontic steppe>> danube , hungary route? I of course am not sure of how it got to europe but that sounds like the most likely to me given how frequent it was on north Illyrians and those were Indo european in origin(mostly coming from paternal lineages likely). J2b1 clades seem to not have taken part on that tho. Some J2a clades might have migrated with the indo europeans trought a north of the black sea route too. I am J2b-L283 by the way. The one thing about your clade is that it is not under L283 so that makes me wonder if L283 mutation hapened already in europe(likely pontic - caspian region) wich would also explain how your clade is present in Iran.

I have merged G25 of all known J-L283s as this branch is of interest to me as well. Here's what happened:

https://d.radikal.ru/d13/2201/78/779672885dbe.jpg

https://d.radikal.ru/d23/2201/c5/80903c99c921.jpg

https://c.radikal.ru/c30/2201/2e/f55740ab9de4.jpg

Corsica, Bergamo and Lombardy are those who are close to our "Etruscans from Illyria" among modern populations. For the Bronze Age, it is obvious that the territory of modern Croatia is a candidate for the habitat of the Illyrian, Celtic or Illyrian-Celtic tribes, and how they got there is difficult to say at the moment.

As for the Scythians in Scotland, it seems there are fantastic theories related to the tribe Scoti.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scoti

For lovers of ancient Iranians, there is also a river called the Don in Scotland.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Don,_Aberdeenshire

For lovers of the Illyrians, there is the Greek name for Scotland - Albania.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania_(placename)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_Albanians_and_Albania


Given the above - you can make a lot of guesswork. Could the Liburnians have sailed this far to Scotland? or, for example, the Phoenicians? Unknown. If we talk about the self-name of the Etruscans - "Raseny", then this toponym is generally found throughout Europe and even somewhat resembles the self-name of Ukrainians until the middle of the 19th century - "Rusyns".

It would be interesting to read something scientific on the topic of the etymology of place names in Scotland.


For those who are interested in experimenting with the G25:

J-L283_Avg,0.1225273,0.1522099,0.0287721,-0.016473,0.0414194,-0.0104011,-0.0010644,0.0005429,0.0170236,0.0372833,0.0000477, 0.0084542,-0.0160466,-0.0045901,-0.0049177,-0.0028858,0.0005982,-0.0004621,0.005405,-0.0049509,-0.0011084,0.0025893,-0.0027115,-0.0034734,-0.0010918

E-V13_Avg,0.1219975,0.1417124,0.0354494,0.0101011,0. 0345517,-0.0016735,0.0024783,0.0029161,0.0044995,0.0089463,-0.0032478,0.0033241,-0.0057574,0.0054048,-0.0058483,-0.0028807,0.0067088,-0.0010711,0.0036795,0.0017169,-0.003494,0.0018324,0.0043026,-0.0024756,-0.0025039