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Vognejar
09-20-2021, 12:55 PM
Are there any hypotheses regarding the early Slavs and J-M12?
At the moment, I was considering my branch J-M12 and it seems to me that before my branch split into Western and Eastern Slavs, it could be associated with the Adriatic "VENEDI". Later I will lay out my map and the map of the distribution of this ethnonym.

In the Balkans, our haplogroup seems to be associated with the ancient Romans who lived in the Balkans, on the border of the Roman Empire, and the Weneds are mentioned in the context of "friendly to the Romans" (translated from the latin language). They originated from the territory of modern Turkey, where the "Enets" lived. In turn, the "Enets" lived in the territory where the people "kasks" once lived, which are related to the Hutts (who had many J2 branches). The opinion of experts on this issue is curious.

Since, the second version is the Illyrians, which is based on the fact that our haplogroup is widespread among the Albanians, whom I personally believe that they are reasonably considered the descendants of the Illyrians.

Another version is the Thracians from the territory of Ukraine, who joined the peoples of the sea.

Vognejar
10-09-2021, 08:39 AM
Updated the map of its branch of haplogroup J2b

https://a.radikal.ru/a05/2110/b6/5fdbc61025cd.jpg

ShpataEMadhe
10-22-2021, 09:58 AM
It is not yet possible to conclude that j2b l283 was illyrian. Lack of l283 in places like bosnia and greece makes me think it may have been something that came from across the sea (italy). Thracian theory should also be looked into

What i would say is J people usually have long or hooked noses. J2b l283 being illyrian is possible, look at the length of Gentius and Ballaeus nose

slavomirski
11-09-2021, 01:58 AM
Hi,

I am from Pinsk, Belarus and belong to a paternal Polish lineage. My DNA test showed that my haplogroup is J-Z631. My G25 coordinates are Slavomir_scaled,0.121791,0.117801,0.069767,0.05717 1,0.028005,0.024263,0.008225,0.017538,-0.008795,-0.027153,-0.003573,-0.013638,0.010109,0.021332,0.002443,-0.007955,-0.009779,0.000253,0.001634,-0.00075,-0.00287,-0.005193,0.009613,0.000843,-0.002874

Kastrati
11-09-2021, 03:08 AM
It is not yet possible to conclude that j2b l283 was illyrian. Lack of l283 in places like bosnia and greece makes me think it may have been something that came from across the sea (italy). Thracian theory should also be looked into

What i would say is J people usually have long or hooked noses. J2b l283 being illyrian is possible, look at the length of Gentius and Ballaeus nose
The timing and locations of the ancient J2b2 samples we have so far, do fit the "Illyrianization" of the Dinaric Alps and Southern Italy, from the Northern Serbia sample, the Croatia sample, and then the Southern Italian samples. They're all several hundred years apart and it shows their ancient presence and spread into the Balkans and Italy. The Italian samples are younger than the Croatia & Hungary sample, so the theory of it coming from Italy doesn't seem plausible. Why it's not as widespread as E-V13 and R1b in Greeks, Italians, and South Slavs, is puzzling though. For whatever reason, it seems J2b2 wasn't as numerous / didn't expand as much as E-V13 and R1b.

Vognejar
11-09-2021, 08:31 AM
The timing and locations of the ancient J2b2 samples we have so far, do fit the "Illyrianization" of the Dinaric Alps and Southern Italy, from the Northern Serbia sample, the Croatia sample, and then the Southern Italian samples. They're all several hundred years apart and it shows their ancient presence and spread into the Balkans and Italy. The Italian samples are younger than the Croatia & Hungary sample, so the theory of it coming from Italy doesn't seem plausible. Why it's not as widespread as E-V13 and R1b in Greeks, Italians, and South Slavs, is puzzling though. For whatever reason, it seems J2b2 wasn't as numerous / didn't expand as much as E-V13 and R1b.

We can only say some facts from snips that the route was through Greece and the islands to the Balkans from the territory of modern Turkey since the Mesolithic times. More ancient - the northwestern Balkans and the time of the Etruscans - the territory of Rome. Then, with regard to the Slavs, we see that all Slavic lines entering Ukraine and Poland pass through Poland and probably through the Czech Republic. Correct me if this information has been updated or is inaccurate.

In connection with the above, I personally have three versions:
1. Italo-Celts (since the territories of distribution in Europe are associated with the ancient Italians and all J2b have an Etruscan snippet, while not all have the more ancient Croatian snip);
2. Illyrians - since the distribution is greatest among the Albanians are clear descendants of the Illyrians;
3. Thracians - since they were the majority among the peoples of the sea, whom we know in the northwestern Balkans (but there they seemed to be in the minority)

Polska
11-11-2021, 05:03 PM
Hi,

I am from Pinsk, Belarus and belong to a paternal Polish lineage. My DNA test showed that my haplogroup is J-Z631. My G25 coordinates are Slavomir_scaled,0.121791,0.117801,0.069767,0.05717 1,0.028005,0.024263,0.008225,0.017538,-0.008795,-0.027153,-0.003573,-0.013638,0.010109,0.021332,0.002443,-0.007955,-0.009779,0.000253,0.001634,-0.00075,-0.00287,-0.005193,0.009613,0.000843,-0.002874

Welcome Slavomirski!

You belong to the most numerous branch of L283, Z631. L283 is not common in Poland or amongst Slavs in general. Despite this fact, Poland has a fairly diverse representation of various L283 branches. This is discussed in detail by Hunter Provyn in the following link from his site, Phylogeographer:

https://phylogeographer.com/eleven-j-l283-lineages-of-poland/

If you’re on Facebook, I would strongly recommend joining the L283 Facebook page. It’s a good source of information and updates. There are several Polish L283s on that page as well.

Beyond that, I think this site is generally a good source of information as well. I tested back in 2008 and all I can tell you is that a lot has changed since then regarding our knowledge and understanding of L283. This is due to increased testing numbers and the ancient DNA revolution.

ShpataEMadhe
11-11-2021, 10:06 PM
The timing and locations of the ancient J2b2 samples we have so far, do fit the "Illyrianization" of the Dinaric Alps and Southern Italy, from the Northern Serbia sample, the Croatia sample, and then the Southern Italian samples. They're all several hundred years apart and it shows their ancient presence and spread into the Balkans and Italy. The Italian samples are younger than the Croatia & Hungary sample, so the theory of it coming from Italy doesn't seem plausible. Why it's not as widespread as E-V13 and R1b in Greeks, Italians, and South Slavs, is puzzling though. For whatever reason, it seems J2b2 wasn't as numerous / didn't expand as much as E-V13 and R1b.

But the issue is we have yet to find anything from illyria proper, these samples are a bit too far north and also dated too early to conclude that they are illyrian. Also, wasnt the recent one from slovenia found in a tumulus? As far as im aware tumuli were associated with italo celtic people?

Vognejar
11-30-2021, 01:07 PM
If we consider the Illyrian hypothesis, then I would divide it into two sub-hypotheses:

1. In the early period, the Proto-Illyrians spread very widely.
"1200BC (or perhaps earlier), some Illyrians begin a movement to Gaul, Spain, England, northern and central Italy, Poland and even Scandinavia.[3]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Illyrian_history#cite_note-3

2. The Illyrians could have become widespread by becoming in the service of Rome during the Roman Empire (the largest presence of J2 in Italy throughout history during this period).
https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/andvari5/78067063/77432/77432_900.jpg