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Cuman
10-04-2021, 05:20 PM
hi there, I need an expert opinion...pls
I have a confirmed Y-DNA haplogroup which is Z2177 (J-PH185, M137, M318, PH2838 were all negative) this data is not from BigY, I have purchased a separate J2 - M67 & L24 SNP Pack on top of YDNA37.
I've read a lot about J2-L70 and Z2177, it seems that the latter is mostly found in Italy and there is a possible link with Jewish ethnicity. Also it is considered as a Roman/Italian haplogroup. Some people on this forum suggested that the Jewish diaspora probably contributed to the spread of this haplogroup in Europe. I noticed that Z2177 is a registered sephardic Jewish Y-DNA haplogroup

In my case there is no jewish ancestry within the family, I checked 5 generations (150 years). Although fragments of Yemenite Jewish autosomal genes are present along with Northern and Southern Levant + Mesopotamia, Anatolia genes in my genom. There are some genes from Sicily, Malta, Italian peninsula and Greece+Balkan. The majority of autosomal genes are Eastern European though.

The interesting part is that there are absolutely no Y-STR matches at any level (although I heard it is not unusual). On Y-DNA Ancestral Origins at genetic distance -1 (12 markers) there are matches all over Europe at a frequency of <0.1%. The shocking finding is that I have 2 matches out of 8 (which makes it 25% match) from Turkmenistan. On Y-DNA Haplogroup origins the two Turkmenistan samples are indicated as J-L70 and L1021.

To my knowledge J-L70 samples from Central Asia could possibly be related to Bukharian jews and they are present in Turkmenistan as well - this would in theory prove some ancient israelite origin on the paternal line. Is there a possibility that one of my paternal ancestor was a sephardic jew? Should I dig deeper in the family tree to find some evidence?

Why I turned to this group was that there is another possibility. Possibly some of the "10 lost tribes" migrated to Central Asia. There is even a theory that the pashtuns of Afghanistan and Pakistan are related to them. If it is true, it is possible that these lost jewish tribes or their descendants joined the Huns along the silk road, and this is how their Y-DNA entered the Carpathian Basin eventually.
I found no detailed description of Bukharan jews Y-DNA, there might be Z2177 among them as well. Any ideas? Thanks in advance

SUPREEEEEME
10-04-2021, 06:35 PM
hi there, I need an expert opinion...pls
I have a confirmed Y-DNA haplogroup which is Z2177 (J-PH185, M137, M318, PH2838 were all negative) this data is not from BigY, I have purchased a separate J2 - M67 & L24 SNP Pack on top of YDNA37.
I've read a lot about J2-L70 and Z2177, it seems that the latter is mostly found in Italy and there is a possible link with Jewish ethnicity. Also it is considered as a Roman/Italian haplogroup. Some people on this forum suggested that the Jewish diaspora probably contributed to the spread of this haplogroup in Europe. I noticed that Z2177 is a registered sephardic Jewish Y-DNA haplogroup

In my case there is no jewish ancestry within the family, I checked 5 generations (150 years). Although fragments of Yemenite Jewish autosomal genes are present along with Northern and Southern Levant + Mesopotamia, Anatolia genes in my genom. There are some genes from Sicily, Malta, Italian peninsula and Greece+Balkan. The majority of autosomal genes are Eastern European though.

The interesting part is that there are absolutely no Y-STR matches at any level (although I heard it is not unusual). On Y-DNA Ancestral Origins at genetic distance -1 (12 markers) there are matches all over Europe at a frequency of <0.1%. The shocking finding is that I have 2 matches out of 8 (which makes it 25% match) from Turkmenistan. On Y-DNA Haplogroup origins the two Turkmenistan samples are indicated as J-L70 and L1021.

To my knowledge J-L70 samples from Central Asia could possibly be related to Bukharian jews and they are present in Turkmenistan as well - this would in theory prove some ancient israelite origin on the paternal line. Is there a possibility that one of my paternal ancestor was a sephardic jew? Should I dig deeper in the family tree to find some evidence?

Why I turned to this group was that there is another possibility. Possibly some of the "10 lost tribes" migrated to Central Asia. There is even a theory that the pashtuns of Afghanistan and Pakistan are related to them. If it is true, it is possible that these lost jewish tribes or their descendants joined the Huns along the silk road, and this is how their Y-DNA entered the Carpathian Basin eventually.
I found no detailed description of Bukharan jews Y-DNA, there might be Z2177 among them as well. Any ideas? Thanks in advance

Hi,

In short, J-Z2177 is not synonymous with Jewish or Italian descent.

Regarding J-L70 as a whole, we can say with reasonable confidence that it is an Eastern Mediterranean subclade given its highest frequency and diversity amongst Italians, Greeks, Anatolians, Mesopotamians, and Levantines.

Regarding J-Z2177 specifically:
https://yfull.com/live/tree/J-Z2177/

There are a large number of Italians within it, the majority being concentrated in J-PH185, which you have tested negative for. There are several Jewish branches within J-Z2177 as well, mostly Sephardic and Mizrahi - however no Ashkenazi branches. To be blunt, if your paternal line were Jewish, you would have more than likely had a Y37 match with one of the individuals tested with the Avotaynu DNA project on FamilyTreeDNA.

Since you have tested negative for J-PH185 and J-M318, there are several alternative branches within J-Z2177 you could fall under (see the link above).

Regarding your matches from Turkmenistan, they fall within a very different branch to you, J-CTS3601. This is sibling to J-Z2177. This is the branch on the YFull tree:

https://yfull.com/live/tree/J-FGC2861/

We can see it is also found in Iraq and Turkey. A plausible possibility for this line is that it is Anatolia > Iraq > Turkmenistan.

This branch isn't related to the existing Bukharan Jewish branch. The Bukharan branch is likely in J-Z2177 - we think it is here:

https://yfull.com/live/tree/J-FGC52112/

But if your paternal line were Bukharan, you would match them at 37 markers.

I would advise caution when looking at your 12 marker matches, most of the time they're not particularly close since only 12 markers are looked at.

I will say that I do believe that the Israelites carried several branches of J-L70 given the sheer number of Jewish branches within it. I don't believe that there were any lost tribes - after the Assyrian conquest of Northern Israel, it is likely that those who are said to have been taken away into captivity rathered fled south to Judah. As for the Pashtuns, there doesn't appear to be any damning genetic evidence to suggest they derive any ancestry from the Levant or the Israelites.

As for your line, several options arise in my mind (in no particular order):

1) The possibility that your paternal line could be a Greek line that migrated north
2) Your line crossed over from Anatolia at some point
3) Your line could have arrived via Rome. I believe that the majority of the J-L70 in Northern Europe is as a result of Rome, with Italy likely receiving its J-L70 from various sources throughout the East Med.

Cuman
10-04-2021, 08:23 PM
As for your line, several options arise in my mind (in no particular order):

1) The possibility that your paternal line could be a Greek line that migrated north
2) Your line crossed over from Anatolia at some point
3) Your line could have arrived via Rome. I believe that the majority of the J-L70 in Northern Europe is as a result of Rome, with Italy likely receiving its J-L70 from various sources throughout the East Med.

Thanks for your detailed answer, I am actually very impressed...

As we have much more Greek autosomal genes than Anatolian, I believe that our paternal line is most likely Greek.
Greek migration to Hungary is well documented, this probably happened in the second half of the 18th century.
Turkish is also possible as we were under the Ottoman rule during the 16-17th century. Not sure about the Italian route

Would you entirely rule out Jewish origin? It is known that Hungary has the highest rate of Jewish genes after Israel, although it is Ashkenazi.
A few things still make me suspicious that it can still be sephardic Jewish.
You said that as I had no Y37 matches, (in fact no Y12 matches either) Jewish ancestry is highly unlikely. Isn't that possible you think that some lineages were completely wiped out during the Holocaust...?

J.delajara
10-05-2021, 12:09 PM
Thanks for your detailed answer, I am actually very impressed...

As we have much more Greek autosomal genes than Anatolian, I believe that our paternal line is most likely Greek.
Greek migration to Hungary is well documented, this probably happened in the second half of the 18th century.
Turkish is also possible as we were under the Ottoman rule during the 16-17th century. Not sure about the Italian route

Would you entirely rule out Jewish origin? It is known that Hungary has the highest rate of Jewish genes after Israel, although it is Ashkenazi.
A few things still make me suspicious that it can still be sephardic Jewish.
You said that as I had no Y37 matches, (in fact no Y12 matches either) Jewish ancestry is highly unlikely. Isn't that possible you think that some lineages were completely wiped out during the Holocaust...?

Hi Cuman, I agree mostly with Supreeeme on his exhaustive analysis. I think your case could probably be Greek or ancient roman.

Cuman
10-05-2021, 12:31 PM
Hi Cuman, I agree mostly with Supreeeme on his exhaustive analysis. I think your case could probably be Greek or ancient roman.

Thank you guys, apparently in Jász-Nagykun-Szolnok county, where my paternal line is from, there were many Greek settlers arriving at the time of Ottoman rule and they came in larger waves later, in the second half of the 18th century. It is very well documented so I am hoping to find some written evidence.
Thanks a lot again for your explanation and assistance.

I will come back to this thread if I find anything. Thx

J Man
10-05-2021, 12:44 PM
Thank you guys, apparently in Jász-Nagykun-Szolnok county, where my paternal line is from, there were many Greek settlers arriving at the time of Ottoman rule and they came in larger waves later, in the second half of the 18th century. It is very well documented so I am hoping to find some written evidence.
Thanks a lot again for your explanation and assistance.

I will come back to this thread if I find anything. Thx

Interesting stuff Cuman and welcome to the forum!...Does your J2a-L70 paternal line come from a village or town in Jász-Nagykun-Szolnok County?

Emre Altug
10-05-2021, 03:15 PM
hi there, I need an expert opinion...pls
I have a confirmed Y-DNA haplogroup which is Z2177 (J-PH185, M137, M318, PH2838 were all negative) this data is not from BigY, I have purchased a separate J2 - M67 & L24 SNP Pack on top of YDNA37.
I've read a lot about J2-L70 and Z2177, it seems that the latter is mostly found in Italy and there is a possible link with Jewish ethnicity. Also it is considered as a Roman/Italian haplogroup. Some people on this forum suggested that the Jewish diaspora probably contributed to the spread of this haplogroup in Europe. I noticed that Z2177 is a registered sephardic Jewish Y-DNA haplogroup

In my case there is no jewish ancestry within the family, I checked 5 generations (150 years). Although fragments of Yemenite Jewish autosomal genes are present along with Northern and Southern Levant + Mesopotamia, Anatolia genes in my genom. There are some genes from Sicily, Malta, Italian peninsula and Greece+Balkan. The majority of autosomal genes are Eastern European though.

The interesting part is that there are absolutely no Y-STR matches at any level (although I heard it is not unusual). On Y-DNA Ancestral Origins at genetic distance -1 (12 markers) there are matches all over Europe at a frequency of <0.1%. The shocking finding is that I have 2 matches out of 8 (which makes it 25% match) from Turkmenistan. On Y-DNA Haplogroup origins the two Turkmenistan samples are indicated as J-L70 and L1021.

To my knowledge J-L70 samples from Central Asia could possibly be related to Bukharian jews and they are present in Turkmenistan as well - this would in theory prove some ancient israelite origin on the paternal line. Is there a possibility that one of my paternal ancestor was a sephardic jew? Should I dig deeper in the family tree to find some evidence?

Why I turned to this group was that there is another possibility. Possibly some of the "10 lost tribes" migrated to Central Asia. There is even a theory that the pashtuns of Afghanistan and Pakistan are related to them. If it is true, it is possible that these lost jewish tribes or their descendants joined the Huns along the silk road, and this is how their Y-DNA entered the Carpathian Basin eventually.
I found no detailed description of Bukharan jews Y-DNA, there might be Z2177 among them as well. Any ideas? Thanks in advance

Hello friend,

I am Z2177 as well (PH84)

I strongly advise you to take a step further and get a Big-Y, and upload it to YFULL.

L70 presence in Balkans and Southeast Europe is normal. We can't deep dive into your ancestry without further analysis.

The 2 matches from Turkmenistan is the same tester (Hamdollah Zanjani, J-L1021, which is under CTS3601 as Supreeeme informed.).

This is where STR markers mislead people. You do match with completely different SNP marker but you have similar STR's, which mutate much more often.

SUPREEEEEME
10-05-2021, 03:17 PM
Thanks for your detailed answer, I am actually very impressed...

As we have much more Greek autosomal genes than Anatolian, I believe that our paternal line is most likely Greek.
Greek migration to Hungary is well documented, this probably happened in the second half of the 18th century.
Turkish is also possible as we were under the Ottoman rule during the 16-17th century. Not sure about the Italian route

Would you entirely rule out Jewish origin? It is known that Hungary has the highest rate of Jewish genes after Israel, although it is Ashkenazi.
A few things still make me suspicious that it can still be sephardic Jewish.
You said that as I had no Y37 matches, (in fact no Y12 matches either) Jewish ancestry is highly unlikely. Isn't that possible you think that some lineages were completely wiped out during the Holocaust...?

Yes, a Jewish origin for your line is unlikely. As you mentioned, the Jewish ancestry in Hungary is largely Ashkenazi, and there are no Ashkenazi lines within J-Z2177. While it is possible that a Sephardic Jew could test in the future and form a clade with you, I don't think it's very likely.

Cuman
10-05-2021, 03:43 PM
Interesting stuff Cuman and welcome to the forum!...Does your J2a-L70 paternal line come from a village or town in Jász-Nagykun-Szolnok County?

It is a smaller town with a population around 20.000. At the time of the presumed Greek settlement in the 18th century there were like 5-7 Greek merchant families. They built a Greek Catholic Church as well later on, which is not in use for a long time now. Ironically the Jewish merchants who arrived in the mid 19th century replaced them. Most Greek families assimilated, died out or simply moved away.
The largest two ethnic groups were Jewish and Greek.

Cuman
10-05-2021, 04:18 PM
Hello friend,

I am Z2177 as well (PH84)

I strongly advise you to take a step further and get a Big-Y, and upload it to YFULL.

L70 presence in Balkans and Southeast Europe is normal. We can't deep dive into your ancestry without further analysis.

The 2 matches from Turkmenistan is the same tester (Hamdollah Zanjani, J-L1021, which is under CTS3601 as Supreeeme informed.).

This is where STR markers mislead people. You do match with completely different SNP marker but you have similar STR's, which mutate much more often.

Yes I realised that 12 markers (STR) match is far from being perfect, and SNP is indeed a different approach. I will go for BigY one day, maybe not right now... the likely scenario is that I would end up with a haplogroup no one has got :D I have to assume this as I have absolutely no matches above 12 markers on ftdna. Also you said you are PH84, I was tested negative for PH2838 so I cannot be PH84... Well we know that Z2177 is a rare haplogroup, and it seems that I belong to one of its smaller subclades.

The interesting thing is that sometimes ppl say that I look like a Turk (or Turkish) or Cypriot. In Pakistan, Lahore a shopkeeper said I must be from Uzbekistan (he said one thing he was sure of I must be a muslim :)

Initialy we though that we are descendants of the Cumans (Kun in Hungarian) who were Turkic tribes and now completely assimilated. I am not sure if we have any info on Cumans regarding their Y-DNA, most likely not. In theory I cannot completely exclude a possibility that ancient Anatolians carrying Z2177 somehow migrated west and north along the Black Sea and later joined the Cumans on the Eurasian Steppes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumans

Emre Altug
10-05-2021, 04:34 PM
Yes I realised that 12 markers (STR) match is far from being perfect, and SNP is indeed a different approach. I will go for BigY one day, maybe not right now... the likely scenario is that I would end up with a haplogroup no one has got :D I have to assume this as I have absolutely no matches above 12 markers on ftdna. Also you said you are PH84, I was tested negative for PH2838 so I cannot be PH84... Well we know that Z2177 is a rare haplogroup, and it seems that I belong to one of its smaller subclades.

The interesting thing is that sometimes ppl say that I look like a Turk (or Turkish) or Cypriot. In Pakistan, Lahore a shopkeeper said I must be from Uzbekistan (he said one thing he was sure of I must be a muslim :)

Initialy we though that we are descendants of the Cumans (Kun in Hungarian) who were Turkic tribes and now completely assimilated. I am not sure if we have any info on Cumans regarding their Y-DNA, most likely not. In theory I cannot completely exclude a possibility that ancient Anatolians carrying Z2177 somehow migrated west and north along the Black Sea and later joined the Cumans on the Eurasian Steppes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumans

L70 is an extremely widespread haplogroup that probably had its origins from the Mediterranean.

It is concentrated around the Southeast Europe and East Mediterranean, but it can also be found in America, Sweden, South Africa and even China (according to 23Mofang predictions, yes there are L70's in China. But we don't know about their history or deeper subclades.)

Without more ancient samples, or more testers, we can't be really sure what we are :) Even i don't know what my ancestors were. I can't say if i am a Native Anatolian or Turkic.

Yet as the time goes by, i hope we will all know about our origins.

Cuman
10-09-2021, 07:54 AM
Yes, a Jewish origin for your line is unlikely. As you mentioned, the Jewish ancestry in Hungary is largely Ashkenazi, and there are no Ashkenazi lines within J-Z2177. While it is possible that a Sephardic Jew could test in the future and form a clade with you, I don't think it's very likely.

Hi Supreeeeeme,
your knowledge in in this field is very impressive, are you an academic and doing research?
I am strongly considering getting a Big-Y, because it has been really difficult to explore my family tree - unfortunately both surnames and christian names of my ancestors are very common and early 19th century church records are not very detailed... so I'm practically at a dead end in family research - I may want to ask help from en expert genealogist but obviously an other option is to explore further my Y-DNA.
In your opinion, how good our knowledge in classifying for instance smaller subclades of Z2177...? Is there any chance of getting a more precise geographical location for the origin of my DNA? or simply, my results could only help future research in the area since we know very little about Z2177
thanks again,

SUPREEEEEME
10-09-2021, 12:42 PM
Hi Supreeeeeme,
your knowledge in in this field is very impressive, are you an academic and doing research?
I am strongly considering getting a Big-Y, because it has been really difficult to explore my family tree - unfortunately both surnames and christian names of my ancestors are very common and early 19th century church records are not very detailed... so I'm practically at a dead end in family research - I may want to ask help from en expert genealogist but obviously an other option is to explore further my Y-DNA.
In your opinion, how good our knowledge in classifying for instance smaller subclades of Z2177...? Is there any chance of getting a more precise geographical location for the origin of my DNA? or simply, my results could only help future research in the area since we know very little about Z2177
thanks again,

I can't confidently say that we will be able to narrow down a precise geographical region. My opinion is that if you want to upgrade, the BigY is your best bet - I would not recommend upgrading to any other level, especially considering that you don't have any matches at any level. Within the field of Y-DNA, we still have many unknowns which will only be solved when we get more ancient DNA samples. Additionally, many regions, especially where J-L70 is more prevalent, are undertested. Your BigY would help individuals who may test in the future and who form deeper branches with you (which may help your search as well).

Cuman
05-18-2022, 08:45 AM
Hi everyone, just wanted to give you an update. Supreeeeeme suggested previously that my Z2177 haplogroup could be Greek in origin as the main Italian subclade (J-PH185) can be ruled out. We also discussed the possibility that Z2177 could be a Sephardic Jewish halplogroup. https://jewishdna.net/AB-170.html although I had no Y-DNA match at 12 or 37 markers on ftDNA.
The new development is that we have two autosomal dna matches from Northern Cyprus (with medium confidence, father and son) and they have strong Sephardic Jewish ethnicity estimates on MyHeritage.
ftDNA gave me some Yemenite Jewish ethnicity, GEDmatch approximately 4% Ashkenazi (my father has more, 6%), but on a 4 population based estimate was 1xSwedish 2xEastern European and 1xAlgerian Jewish.
I am going to have the Big-Y analysis on ftDNA, but so far what we know, it is possible that my paternal ancestor was originally from Cyprus.
It is documented that Greek (maybe some with ?Cypriot background) and Jewish traders appeared in that part of Hungary towards the end of 18th and beginning of 19th century.

So the question is, how much we know about the genetics of Cypriot Jews? I think it is quite possible that Z2177 was one of their Y-DNA. Any suggestions and speculations are welcome

thanks everyone.

Emre Altug
05-18-2022, 02:20 PM
Hi everyone, just wanted to give you an update. Supreeeeeme suggested previously that my Z2177 haplogroup could be Greek in origin as the main Italian subclade (J-PH185) can be ruled out. We also discussed the possibility that Z2177 could be a Sephardic Jewish halplogroup. https://jewishdna.net/AB-170.html although I had no Y-DNA match at 12 or 37 markers on ftDNA.
The new development is that we have two autosomal dna matches from Northern Cyprus (with medium confidence, father and son) and they have strong Sephardic Jewish ethnicity estimates on MyHeritage.
ftDNA gave me some Yemenite Jewish ethnicity, GEDmatch approximately 4% Ashkenazi (my father has more, 6%), but on a 4 population based estimate was 1xSwedish 2xEastern European and 1xAlgerian Jewish.
I am going to have the Big-Y analysis on ftDNA, but so far what we know, it is possible that my paternal ancestor was originally from Cyprus.
It is documented that Greek (maybe some with ?Cypriot background) and Jewish traders appeared in that part of Hungary towards the end of 18th and beginning of 19th century.

So the question is, how much we know about the genetics of Cypriot Jews? I think it is quite possible that Z2177 was one of their Y-DNA. Any suggestions and speculations are welcome

thanks everyone.

Hello Cuman,

Don't take the Myheritage or other company autosomal admixtures as a direct reference. Middle Eastern + Mediterranean components seem to be represented by "Sephardic Jewish" admixture. We even see it in some Turks. But this is not true. Cypriots have their own genetic admixture and they are not Sephardic Jews. It is just the false alarm of these genetic companies.

Is it possible to share your Dodecad K12b results ? (with the pie chart included) Maybe i will ask Turkish DNA admins and generate you an approximation list.

Regarding your haplogroup, i don't think there is any connection with Cypriots either. J-L70, and Z2177 is normal to be seen in Eastern Europe. If it's migrated, then it was a very long time ago.

Maybe you know about it ; There's 2 J-L70's found in a grave from Avar Period (Kiskörös Pohibuj Macko Dülö) but we don't know about the subclades. One is not Z2177. The other is unknown.

I advise to you take Big-Y as soon as possible, and share your Dodecad K12b results :D

Cuman
05-20-2022, 01:44 PM
Hello Cuman,

Don't take the Myheritage or other company autosomal admixtures as a direct reference. Middle Eastern + Mediterranean components seem to be represented by "Sephardic Jewish" admixture. We even see it in some Turks. But this is not true. Cypriots have their own genetic admixture and they are not Sephardic Jews. It is just the false alarm of these genetic companies.

Is it possible to share your Dodecad K12b results ? (with the pie chart included) Maybe i will ask Turkish DNA admins and generate you an approximation list.

Regarding your haplogroup, i don't think there is any connection with Cypriots either. J-L70, and Z2177 is normal to be seen in Eastern Europe. If it's migrated, then it was a very long time ago.

Maybe you know about it ; There's 2 J-L70's found in a grave from Avar Period (Kiskörös Pohibuj Macko Dülö) but we don't know about the subclades. One is not Z2177. The other is unknown.

I advise to you take Big-Y as soon as possible, and share your Dodecad K12b results :D

Thanks, I believe MyHeritage is not as bad as many people say... I was very hesitant to joint MyHeritage, but at the end I found its database very useful, it is particularly good if you are building your family tree. I am using both Familysearch and MyHeritage simultaneously. DNA match for Europeans is excellent and looks accurate as well. I managed to find a link to a number of distant relatives on my family tree.
When it comes to ethnicities, I think the context is very important. For instance Sephardic Jews were able to settle down in the Ottoman Empire and historical records show that they lived in Northern Cyprus as well. Often you find Ashkenazi ethnicity with Sephardic jewish... that's the case with my matches as well.
I am not aware of any Z2177 in Hungary, but I might be wrong, certainly L70 is very widespread in Europe, but that's a much older than Z2177. L70 goes back 34.000 years while Z2177 "only" <3000y.

thanks for your comments! yes I will go for the bigY very soon :D

49667

above you see the piechart for Dodecad K12b, and the text below:

Dodecad K12b 4-Ancestors Oracle
This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

The GEDmatch version of Oracle may give slightly different results from Dienekes version. The GEDmatch version uses FST weighting in its calculations.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_European 43.12
2 Atlantic_Med 24.14
3 Caucasus 15.13
4 Gedrosia 7.85
5 Southwest_Asian 7.01
6 East_Asian 2.75


Finished reading population data. 223 populations found.
12 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Hungarians_Behar @ 8.597414
2 German_Dodecad @ 12.993997
3 Romanians_Behar @ 16.125107
4 Bulgarian_Dodecad @ 17.905714
5 Mixed_Germanic_Dodecad @ 18.451813
6 Bulgarians_Yunusbayev @ 18.938906
7 Dutch_Dodecad @ 19.739655
8 Ukranians_Yunusbayev @ 22.455524
9 Swedish_Dodecad @ 22.461573
10 CEU30_1000Genomes @ 22.467323
11 French_Dodecad @ 22.490650
12 Kent_1000Genomes @ 22.551552
13 Polish_Dodecad @ 22.563890
14 English_Dodecad @ 22.674826
15 French_HGDP @ 22.996601
16 Norwegian_Dodecad @ 23.635075
17 British_Isles_Dodecad @ 23.885778
18 Mixed_Slav_Dodecad @ 24.294968
19 Argyll_1000Genomes @ 24.369165
20 Orkney_1000Genomes @ 24.980873

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Mordovians_Yunusbayev +50% N_Italian_Dodecad @ 6.976945


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Norwegian_Dodecad +25% Syrians_Behar +25% Ukranians_Yunusbayev @ 3.590979


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Iraq_Jews_Behar + Mixed_Slav_Dodecad + Norwegian_Dodecad + Norwegian_Dodecad @ 2.933296
2 Mixed_Germanic_Dodecad + Russian_B_Behar + Swedish_Dodecad + Syrians_Behar @ 2.934682
3 Dutch_Dodecad + Russian_B_Behar + Swedish_Dodecad + Syrians_Behar @ 2.938686
4 Iraq_Jews_Behar + Norwegian_Dodecad + Polish_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad @ 2.954864
5 Iraq_Jews_Behar + Kent_1000Genomes + Lithuanian_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad @ 3.021289
6 Lebanese_Behar + Mixed_Germanic_Dodecad + Russian_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad @ 3.030669
7 British_Isles_Dodecad + Iraq_Jews_Behar + Lithuanian_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad @ 3.033798
8 English_Dodecad + Iraq_Jews_Behar + Lithuanian_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad @ 3.035184
9 Dutch_Dodecad + Iraq_Jews_Behar + Lithuanian_Dodecad + Norwegian_Dodecad @ 3.038687
10 Iraq_Jews_Behar + Norwegian_Dodecad + Norwegian_Dodecad + Ukranians_Yunusbayev @ 3.039080
11 CEU30_1000Genomes + Iraq_Jews_Behar + Lithuanian_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad @ 3.046674
12 Iraq_Jews_Behar + Mixed_Slav_Dodecad + Norwegian_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad @ 3.052644
13 Iraq_Jews_Behar + Polish_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad @ 3.055300
14 Mixed_Germanic_Dodecad + Russian_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad + Syrians_Behar @ 3.055937
15 CEU30_1000Genomes + Russian_B_Behar + Swedish_Dodecad + Syrians_Behar @ 3.059253
16 Dutch_Dodecad + Lebanese_Behar + Russian_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad @ 3.064041
17 German_Dodecad + Norwegian_Dodecad + Russian_Dodecad + Syrians_Behar @ 3.085875
18 English_Dodecad + Russian_B_Behar + Swedish_Dodecad + Syrians_Behar @ 3.087455
19 Cornwall_1000Genomes + Iraq_Jews_Behar + Lithuanian_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad @ 3.091632
20 British_Dodecad + Iraq_Jews_Behar + Lithuanian_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad @ 3.092088

J.delajara
05-20-2022, 04:08 PM
Thanks, I believe MyHeritage is not as bad as many people say... I was very hesitant to joint MyHeritage, but at the end I found its database very useful, it is particularly good if you are building your family tree. I am using both Familysearch and MyHeritage simultaneously. DNA match for Europeans is excellent and looks accurate as well. I managed to find a link to a number of distant relatives on my family tree.
When it comes to ethnicities, I think the context is very important. For instance Sephardic Jews were able to settle down in the Ottoman Empire and historical records show that they lived in Northern Cyprus as well. Often you find Ashkenazi ethnicity with Sephardic jewish... that's the case with my matches as well.
I am not aware of any Z2177 in Hungary, but I might be wrong, certainly L70 is very widespread in Europe, but that's a much older than Z2177. L70 goes back 34.000 years while Z2177 "only" <3000y.

thanks for your comments! yes I will go for the bigY very soon :D

49667

above you see the piechart for Dodecad K12b, and the text below:

Dodecad K12b 4-Ancestors Oracle
This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

The GEDmatch version of Oracle may give slightly different results from Dienekes version. The GEDmatch version uses FST weighting in its calculations.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_European 43.12
2 Atlantic_Med 24.14
3 Caucasus 15.13
4 Gedrosia 7.85
5 Southwest_Asian 7.01
6 East_Asian 2.75


Finished reading population data. 223 populations found.
12 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Hungarians_Behar @ 8.597414
2 German_Dodecad @ 12.993997
3 Romanians_Behar @ 16.125107
4 Bulgarian_Dodecad @ 17.905714
5 Mixed_Germanic_Dodecad @ 18.451813
6 Bulgarians_Yunusbayev @ 18.938906
7 Dutch_Dodecad @ 19.739655
8 Ukranians_Yunusbayev @ 22.455524
9 Swedish_Dodecad @ 22.461573
10 CEU30_1000Genomes @ 22.467323
11 French_Dodecad @ 22.490650
12 Kent_1000Genomes @ 22.551552
13 Polish_Dodecad @ 22.563890
14 English_Dodecad @ 22.674826
15 French_HGDP @ 22.996601
16 Norwegian_Dodecad @ 23.635075
17 British_Isles_Dodecad @ 23.885778
18 Mixed_Slav_Dodecad @ 24.294968
19 Argyll_1000Genomes @ 24.369165
20 Orkney_1000Genomes @ 24.980873

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Mordovians_Yunusbayev +50% N_Italian_Dodecad @ 6.976945


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Norwegian_Dodecad +25% Syrians_Behar +25% Ukranians_Yunusbayev @ 3.590979


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Iraq_Jews_Behar + Mixed_Slav_Dodecad + Norwegian_Dodecad + Norwegian_Dodecad @ 2.933296
2 Mixed_Germanic_Dodecad + Russian_B_Behar + Swedish_Dodecad + Syrians_Behar @ 2.934682
3 Dutch_Dodecad + Russian_B_Behar + Swedish_Dodecad + Syrians_Behar @ 2.938686
4 Iraq_Jews_Behar + Norwegian_Dodecad + Polish_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad @ 2.954864
5 Iraq_Jews_Behar + Kent_1000Genomes + Lithuanian_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad @ 3.021289
6 Lebanese_Behar + Mixed_Germanic_Dodecad + Russian_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad @ 3.030669
7 British_Isles_Dodecad + Iraq_Jews_Behar + Lithuanian_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad @ 3.033798
8 English_Dodecad + Iraq_Jews_Behar + Lithuanian_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad @ 3.035184
9 Dutch_Dodecad + Iraq_Jews_Behar + Lithuanian_Dodecad + Norwegian_Dodecad @ 3.038687
10 Iraq_Jews_Behar + Norwegian_Dodecad + Norwegian_Dodecad + Ukranians_Yunusbayev @ 3.039080
11 CEU30_1000Genomes + Iraq_Jews_Behar + Lithuanian_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad @ 3.046674
12 Iraq_Jews_Behar + Mixed_Slav_Dodecad + Norwegian_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad @ 3.052644
13 Iraq_Jews_Behar + Polish_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad @ 3.055300
14 Mixed_Germanic_Dodecad + Russian_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad + Syrians_Behar @ 3.055937
15 CEU30_1000Genomes + Russian_B_Behar + Swedish_Dodecad + Syrians_Behar @ 3.059253
16 Dutch_Dodecad + Lebanese_Behar + Russian_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad @ 3.064041
17 German_Dodecad + Norwegian_Dodecad + Russian_Dodecad + Syrians_Behar @ 3.085875
18 English_Dodecad + Russian_B_Behar + Swedish_Dodecad + Syrians_Behar @ 3.087455
19 Cornwall_1000Genomes + Iraq_Jews_Behar + Lithuanian_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad @ 3.091632
20 British_Dodecad + Iraq_Jews_Behar + Lithuanian_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad @ 3.092088

Hi Cuman, just one comment: According to Yfull J2 L70 is about 3.700 years old, that means it was born in the middle bronze age, it is not a 34.000 years old clade. Best regards

SUPREEEEEME
05-20-2022, 04:31 PM
Hi everyone, just wanted to give you an update. Supreeeeeme suggested previously that my Z2177 haplogroup could be Greek in origin as the main Italian subclade (J-PH185) can be ruled out. We also discussed the possibility that Z2177 could be a Sephardic Jewish halplogroup. https://jewishdna.net/AB-170.html although I had no Y-DNA match at 12 or 37 markers on ftDNA.
The new development is that we have two autosomal dna matches from Northern Cyprus (with medium confidence, father and son) and they have strong Sephardic Jewish ethnicity estimates on MyHeritage.
ftDNA gave me some Yemenite Jewish ethnicity, GEDmatch approximately 4% Ashkenazi (my father has more, 6%), but on a 4 population based estimate was 1xSwedish 2xEastern European and 1xAlgerian Jewish.
I am going to have the Big-Y analysis on ftDNA, but so far what we know, it is possible that my paternal ancestor was originally from Cyprus.
It is documented that Greek (maybe some with ?Cypriot background) and Jewish traders appeared in that part of Hungary towards the end of 18th and beginning of 19th century.

So the question is, how much we know about the genetics of Cypriot Jews? I think it is quite possible that Z2177 was one of their Y-DNA. Any suggestions and speculations are welcome

thanks everyone.

Think BigY is your best bet to see who you may match. Autosomal matches don't really translate to Y-DNA.

It seems most logical to me that J-L70's presence in Hungary is attributable to Greeks, and Romans (who themselves would have received it from Greeks, Anatolians, Levantines etc...), or Jewish exits (less likely, since I haven't seen any cases of this, but still a possibility).

Cuman
05-20-2022, 04:49 PM
Yes you’re right. It must be the estimate for M172.
Interestingly 23andme gave me this info on J2-L70.

Yfull gives two estimates one is when it was formed (6700) and time to the most recent common ancestor, which is 3700. I’m not sure why these two are different. For Z2177 both estimates are 3500 ?!

Cuman
05-20-2022, 05:18 PM
Think BigY is your best bet to see who you may match. Autosomal matches don't really translate to Y-DNA.

It seems most logical to me that J-L70's presence in Hungary is attributable to Greeks, and Romans (who themselves would have received it from Greeks, Anatolians, Levantines etc...), or Jewish exits (less likely, since I haven't seen any cases of this, but still a possibility).

I also thought that Y-dna match would be the best choice, so what I’ve done was the 37 marker test on ftdna. No matches even at 12 markers, none. 12-1 marker matches appear pretty useless, there are only a few of them, but all over Europe.

BigY may give me a more refined subclade, which nobody ever heard of, but it’s ok �� I am gonna go for it!

What you said about the autosomal matches, of course is true, but still I wonder how I can have distant cousins in Cyprus…

Emre Altug
05-20-2022, 08:39 PM
Thanks, I believe MyHeritage is not as bad as many people say... I was very hesitant to joint MyHeritage, but at the end I found its database very useful, it is particularly good if you are building your family tree. I am using both Familysearch and MyHeritage simultaneously. DNA match for Europeans is excellent and looks accurate as well. I managed to find a link to a number of distant relatives on my family tree.
When it comes to ethnicities, I think the context is very important. For instance Sephardic Jews were able to settle down in the Ottoman Empire and historical records show that they lived in Northern Cyprus as well. Often you find Ashkenazi ethnicity with Sephardic jewish... that's the case with my matches as well.
I am not aware of any Z2177 in Hungary, but I might be wrong, certainly L70 is very widespread in Europe, but that's a much older than Z2177. L70 goes back 34.000 years while Z2177 "only" <3000y.

thanks for your comments! yes I will go for the bigY very soon :D

49667

above you see the piechart for Dodecad K12b, and the text below:

Dodecad K12b 4-Ancestors Oracle
This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

The GEDmatch version of Oracle may give slightly different results from Dienekes version. The GEDmatch version uses FST weighting in its calculations.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_European 43.12
2 Atlantic_Med 24.14
3 Caucasus 15.13
4 Gedrosia 7.85
5 Southwest_Asian 7.01
6 East_Asian 2.75


Finished reading population data. 223 populations found.
12 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Hungarians_Behar @ 8.597414
2 German_Dodecad @ 12.993997
3 Romanians_Behar @ 16.125107
4 Bulgarian_Dodecad @ 17.905714
5 Mixed_Germanic_Dodecad @ 18.451813
6 Bulgarians_Yunusbayev @ 18.938906
7 Dutch_Dodecad @ 19.739655
8 Ukranians_Yunusbayev @ 22.455524
9 Swedish_Dodecad @ 22.461573
10 CEU30_1000Genomes @ 22.467323
11 French_Dodecad @ 22.490650
12 Kent_1000Genomes @ 22.551552
13 Polish_Dodecad @ 22.563890
14 English_Dodecad @ 22.674826
15 French_HGDP @ 22.996601
16 Norwegian_Dodecad @ 23.635075
17 British_Isles_Dodecad @ 23.885778
18 Mixed_Slav_Dodecad @ 24.294968
19 Argyll_1000Genomes @ 24.369165
20 Orkney_1000Genomes @ 24.980873

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Mordovians_Yunusbayev +50% N_Italian_Dodecad @ 6.976945


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Norwegian_Dodecad +25% Syrians_Behar +25% Ukranians_Yunusbayev @ 3.590979


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Iraq_Jews_Behar + Mixed_Slav_Dodecad + Norwegian_Dodecad + Norwegian_Dodecad @ 2.933296
2 Mixed_Germanic_Dodecad + Russian_B_Behar + Swedish_Dodecad + Syrians_Behar @ 2.934682
3 Dutch_Dodecad + Russian_B_Behar + Swedish_Dodecad + Syrians_Behar @ 2.938686
4 Iraq_Jews_Behar + Norwegian_Dodecad + Polish_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad @ 2.954864
5 Iraq_Jews_Behar + Kent_1000Genomes + Lithuanian_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad @ 3.021289
6 Lebanese_Behar + Mixed_Germanic_Dodecad + Russian_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad @ 3.030669
7 British_Isles_Dodecad + Iraq_Jews_Behar + Lithuanian_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad @ 3.033798
8 English_Dodecad + Iraq_Jews_Behar + Lithuanian_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad @ 3.035184
9 Dutch_Dodecad + Iraq_Jews_Behar + Lithuanian_Dodecad + Norwegian_Dodecad @ 3.038687
10 Iraq_Jews_Behar + Norwegian_Dodecad + Norwegian_Dodecad + Ukranians_Yunusbayev @ 3.039080
11 CEU30_1000Genomes + Iraq_Jews_Behar + Lithuanian_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad @ 3.046674
12 Iraq_Jews_Behar + Mixed_Slav_Dodecad + Norwegian_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad @ 3.052644
13 Iraq_Jews_Behar + Polish_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad @ 3.055300
14 Mixed_Germanic_Dodecad + Russian_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad + Syrians_Behar @ 3.055937
15 CEU30_1000Genomes + Russian_B_Behar + Swedish_Dodecad + Syrians_Behar @ 3.059253
16 Dutch_Dodecad + Lebanese_Behar + Russian_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad @ 3.064041
17 German_Dodecad + Norwegian_Dodecad + Russian_Dodecad + Syrians_Behar @ 3.085875
18 English_Dodecad + Russian_B_Behar + Swedish_Dodecad + Syrians_Behar @ 3.087455
19 Cornwall_1000Genomes + Iraq_Jews_Behar + Lithuanian_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad @ 3.091632
20 British_Dodecad + Iraq_Jews_Behar + Lithuanian_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad @ 3.092088

Hello Cuman, i've asked the Turkish DNA admins and they generated a list for your results

Single Population Approximation List:
1. Hungarian_Transdanubia_Budapest @ 6,591101
2. Hungarian @ 6,695731
3. Hungarian_Transylvania_Szekely @ 6,914253
4. Bosnian @ 7,005819
5. Moldavian_North @ 7,131304
6. Croat @ 7,200965
7. Hungarian_Alfold @ 7,292339
8. Hungarian_North @ 7,566566
9. Slovenian @ 7,971156
10. Moldavian_Center @ 8,903722
11. Ukrainian_Ivano-Frankivsk @ 9,008797
12. Serb @ 9,419346
13. Slovak @ 9,741531
14. Czech @ 10,587508
15. Montenegrin @ 12,469664
16. German @ 13,109183
17. Bavarian_German @ 13,430461
18. Sorb_Lusatia @ 13,69195
19. Romanian @ 13,851187
20. Macedonian @ 14,223464

2-Population Approximation List:

1. 15% Iraqi_Arab + 85% Slovak @ 3,408801
2. 20% Iraqi_Arab + 80% Sorb_Lusatia @ 3,448339
3. 15% Arab_Iran + 85% Slovak @ 3,579254
4. 76% Polish_Warmia-Masuria + 24% Syrian_Muslim @ 3,594949
5. 24% Lebanese_Muslim + 76% Polish_Warmia-Masuria @ 3,622406
6. 79% Sorb_Lusatia + 21% Syrian_Muslim @ 3,628999
7. 23% Lebanese_Christian + 77% Polish_Warmia-Masuria @ 3,685086
8. 24% Arab_Alawite_Turkey + 76% Polish_Warmia-Masuria @ 3,689764
9. 77% Polish_Warmia-Masuria + 23% Syrian_SW_Christian @ 3,701666
10. 24% Palestinian + 76% Polish_Warmia-Masuria @ 3,719895
11. 22% Iraqi_Jew + 78% Polish_Warmia-Masuria @ 3,756452
12. 23% Palestinian_Christian + 77% Polish_Warmia-Masuria @ 3,77645
13. 85% Slovak + 15% Syrian_Muslim @ 3,783632
14. 20% Arab_Iran + 80% Sorb_Lusatia @ 3,799457
15. 15% Iraqi_Baghdad + 85% Slovak @ 3,808411
16. 24% Jordanian_Muslim + 76% Polish_Warmia-Masuria @ 3,833221
17. 20% Jordanian_Muslim + 80% Sorb_Lusatia @ 3,835568
18. 23% Jordanian_Christian + 77% Polish_Warmia-Masuria @ 3,839542
19. 20% Palestinian + 80% Sorb_Lusatia @ 3,885332
20. 22% Kurdish_Jew + 78% Polish_Warmia-Masuria @ 3,936321

You have a slight bias towards Middle East but of course this may have nothing to do with your Y-DNA.

Emre Altug
05-28-2022, 09:31 AM
@Cuman,

In Turkish DNA group we argued about why you seem to have a "Middle Eastern" admixture.

One of the admins told that Hungarians are generally more "Southern" than Slavs. Regarding you have a Middle Eastern and Slav mix in the 2-population calculator, he mentioned that you might be a regular Hungarian because of this reason above.

But still, it's open to questions.