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View Full Version : J2-L70>Z435>Z2177 haplogroup in Hungary



Cuman
10-04-2021, 05:20 PM
hi there, I need an expert opinion...pls
I have a confirmed Y-DNA haplogroup which is Z2177 (J-PH185, M137, M318, PH2838 were all negative) this data is not from BigY, I have purchased a separate J2 - M67 & L24 SNP Pack on top of YDNA37.
I've read a lot about J2-L70 and Z2177, it seems that the latter is mostly found in Italy and there is a possible link with Jewish ethnicity. Also it is considered as a Roman/Italian haplogroup. Some people on this forum suggested that the Jewish diaspora probably contributed to the spread of this haplogroup in Europe. I noticed that Z2177 is a registered sephardic Jewish Y-DNA haplogroup

In my case there is no jewish ancestry within the family, I checked 5 generations (150 years). Although fragments of Yemenite Jewish autosomal genes are present along with Northern and Southern Levant + Mesopotamia, Anatolia genes in my genom. There are some genes from Sicily, Malta, Italian peninsula and Greece+Balkan. The majority of autosomal genes are Eastern European though.

The interesting part is that there are absolutely no Y-STR matches at any level (although I heard it is not unusual). On Y-DNA Ancestral Origins at genetic distance -1 (12 markers) there are matches all over Europe at a frequency of <0.1%. The shocking finding is that I have 2 matches out of 8 (which makes it 25% match) from Turkmenistan. On Y-DNA Haplogroup origins the two Turkmenistan samples are indicated as J-L70 and L1021.

To my knowledge J-L70 samples from Central Asia could possibly be related to Bukharian jews and they are present in Turkmenistan as well - this would in theory prove some ancient israelite origin on the paternal line. Is there a possibility that one of my paternal ancestor was a sephardic jew? Should I dig deeper in the family tree to find some evidence?

Why I turned to this group was that there is another possibility. Possibly some of the "10 lost tribes" migrated to Central Asia. There is even a theory that the pashtuns of Afghanistan and Pakistan are related to them. If it is true, it is possible that these lost jewish tribes or their descendants joined the Huns along the silk road, and this is how their Y-DNA entered the Carpathian Basin eventually.
I found no detailed description of Bukharan jews Y-DNA, there might be Z2177 among them as well. Any ideas? Thanks in advance

SUPREEEEEME
10-04-2021, 06:35 PM
hi there, I need an expert opinion...pls
I have a confirmed Y-DNA haplogroup which is Z2177 (J-PH185, M137, M318, PH2838 were all negative) this data is not from BigY, I have purchased a separate J2 - M67 & L24 SNP Pack on top of YDNA37.
I've read a lot about J2-L70 and Z2177, it seems that the latter is mostly found in Italy and there is a possible link with Jewish ethnicity. Also it is considered as a Roman/Italian haplogroup. Some people on this forum suggested that the Jewish diaspora probably contributed to the spread of this haplogroup in Europe. I noticed that Z2177 is a registered sephardic Jewish Y-DNA haplogroup

In my case there is no jewish ancestry within the family, I checked 5 generations (150 years). Although fragments of Yemenite Jewish autosomal genes are present along with Northern and Southern Levant + Mesopotamia, Anatolia genes in my genom. There are some genes from Sicily, Malta, Italian peninsula and Greece+Balkan. The majority of autosomal genes are Eastern European though.

The interesting part is that there are absolutely no Y-STR matches at any level (although I heard it is not unusual). On Y-DNA Ancestral Origins at genetic distance -1 (12 markers) there are matches all over Europe at a frequency of <0.1%. The shocking finding is that I have 2 matches out of 8 (which makes it 25% match) from Turkmenistan. On Y-DNA Haplogroup origins the two Turkmenistan samples are indicated as J-L70 and L1021.

To my knowledge J-L70 samples from Central Asia could possibly be related to Bukharian jews and they are present in Turkmenistan as well - this would in theory prove some ancient israelite origin on the paternal line. Is there a possibility that one of my paternal ancestor was a sephardic jew? Should I dig deeper in the family tree to find some evidence?

Why I turned to this group was that there is another possibility. Possibly some of the "10 lost tribes" migrated to Central Asia. There is even a theory that the pashtuns of Afghanistan and Pakistan are related to them. If it is true, it is possible that these lost jewish tribes or their descendants joined the Huns along the silk road, and this is how their Y-DNA entered the Carpathian Basin eventually.
I found no detailed description of Bukharan jews Y-DNA, there might be Z2177 among them as well. Any ideas? Thanks in advance

Hi,

In short, J-Z2177 is not synonymous with Jewish or Italian descent.

Regarding J-L70 as a whole, we can say with reasonable confidence that it is an Eastern Mediterranean subclade given its highest frequency and diversity amongst Italians, Greeks, Anatolians, Mesopotamians, and Levantines.

Regarding J-Z2177 specifically:
https://yfull.com/live/tree/J-Z2177/

There are a large number of Italians within it, the majority being concentrated in J-PH185, which you have tested negative for. There are several Jewish branches within J-Z2177 as well, mostly Sephardic and Mizrahi - however no Ashkenazi branches. To be blunt, if your paternal line were Jewish, you would have more than likely had a Y37 match with one of the individuals tested with the Avotaynu DNA project on FamilyTreeDNA.

Since you have tested negative for J-PH185 and J-M318, there are several alternative branches within J-Z2177 you could fall under (see the link above).

Regarding your matches from Turkmenistan, they fall within a very different branch to you, J-CTS3601. This is sibling to J-Z2177. This is the branch on the YFull tree:

https://yfull.com/live/tree/J-FGC2861/

We can see it is also found in Iraq and Turkey. A plausible possibility for this line is that it is Anatolia > Iraq > Turkmenistan.

This branch isn't related to the existing Bukharan Jewish branch. The Bukharan branch is likely in J-Z2177 - we think it is here:

https://yfull.com/live/tree/J-FGC52112/

But if your paternal line were Bukharan, you would match them at 37 markers.

I would advise caution when looking at your 12 marker matches, most of the time they're not particularly close since only 12 markers are looked at.

I will say that I do believe that the Israelites carried several branches of J-L70 given the sheer number of Jewish branches within it. I don't believe that there were any lost tribes - after the Assyrian conquest of Northern Israel, it is likely that those who are said to have been taken away into captivity rathered fled south to Judah. As for the Pashtuns, there doesn't appear to be any damning genetic evidence to suggest they derive any ancestry from the Levant or the Israelites.

As for your line, several options arise in my mind (in no particular order):

1) The possibility that your paternal line could be a Greek line that migrated north
2) Your line crossed over from Anatolia at some point
3) Your line could have arrived via Rome. I believe that the majority of the J-L70 in Northern Europe is as a result of Rome, with Italy likely receiving its J-L70 from various sources throughout the East Med.

Cuman
10-04-2021, 08:23 PM
As for your line, several options arise in my mind (in no particular order):

1) The possibility that your paternal line could be a Greek line that migrated north
2) Your line crossed over from Anatolia at some point
3) Your line could have arrived via Rome. I believe that the majority of the J-L70 in Northern Europe is as a result of Rome, with Italy likely receiving its J-L70 from various sources throughout the East Med.

Thanks for your detailed answer, I am actually very impressed...

As we have much more Greek autosomal genes than Anatolian, I believe that our paternal line is most likely Greek.
Greek migration to Hungary is well documented, this probably happened in the second half of the 18th century.
Turkish is also possible as we were under the Ottoman rule during the 16-17th century. Not sure about the Italian route

Would you entirely rule out Jewish origin? It is known that Hungary has the highest rate of Jewish genes after Israel, although it is Ashkenazi.
A few things still make me suspicious that it can still be sephardic Jewish.
You said that as I had no Y37 matches, (in fact no Y12 matches either) Jewish ancestry is highly unlikely. Isn't that possible you think that some lineages were completely wiped out during the Holocaust...?

J.delajara
10-05-2021, 12:09 PM
Thanks for your detailed answer, I am actually very impressed...

As we have much more Greek autosomal genes than Anatolian, I believe that our paternal line is most likely Greek.
Greek migration to Hungary is well documented, this probably happened in the second half of the 18th century.
Turkish is also possible as we were under the Ottoman rule during the 16-17th century. Not sure about the Italian route

Would you entirely rule out Jewish origin? It is known that Hungary has the highest rate of Jewish genes after Israel, although it is Ashkenazi.
A few things still make me suspicious that it can still be sephardic Jewish.
You said that as I had no Y37 matches, (in fact no Y12 matches either) Jewish ancestry is highly unlikely. Isn't that possible you think that some lineages were completely wiped out during the Holocaust...?

Hi Cuman, I agree mostly with Supreeeme on his exhaustive analysis. I think your case could probably be Greek or ancient roman.

Cuman
10-05-2021, 12:31 PM
Hi Cuman, I agree mostly with Supreeeme on his exhaustive analysis. I think your case could probably be Greek or ancient roman.

Thank you guys, apparently in Jász-Nagykun-Szolnok county, where my paternal line is from, there were many Greek settlers arriving at the time of Ottoman rule and they came in larger waves later, in the second half of the 18th century. It is very well documented so I am hoping to find some written evidence.
Thanks a lot again for your explanation and assistance.

I will come back to this thread if I find anything. Thx

J Man
10-05-2021, 12:44 PM
Thank you guys, apparently in Jász-Nagykun-Szolnok county, where my paternal line is from, there were many Greek settlers arriving at the time of Ottoman rule and they came in larger waves later, in the second half of the 18th century. It is very well documented so I am hoping to find some written evidence.
Thanks a lot again for your explanation and assistance.

I will come back to this thread if I find anything. Thx

Interesting stuff Cuman and welcome to the forum!...Does your J2a-L70 paternal line come from a village or town in Jász-Nagykun-Szolnok County?

Emre Altug
10-05-2021, 03:15 PM
hi there, I need an expert opinion...pls
I have a confirmed Y-DNA haplogroup which is Z2177 (J-PH185, M137, M318, PH2838 were all negative) this data is not from BigY, I have purchased a separate J2 - M67 & L24 SNP Pack on top of YDNA37.
I've read a lot about J2-L70 and Z2177, it seems that the latter is mostly found in Italy and there is a possible link with Jewish ethnicity. Also it is considered as a Roman/Italian haplogroup. Some people on this forum suggested that the Jewish diaspora probably contributed to the spread of this haplogroup in Europe. I noticed that Z2177 is a registered sephardic Jewish Y-DNA haplogroup

In my case there is no jewish ancestry within the family, I checked 5 generations (150 years). Although fragments of Yemenite Jewish autosomal genes are present along with Northern and Southern Levant + Mesopotamia, Anatolia genes in my genom. There are some genes from Sicily, Malta, Italian peninsula and Greece+Balkan. The majority of autosomal genes are Eastern European though.

The interesting part is that there are absolutely no Y-STR matches at any level (although I heard it is not unusual). On Y-DNA Ancestral Origins at genetic distance -1 (12 markers) there are matches all over Europe at a frequency of <0.1%. The shocking finding is that I have 2 matches out of 8 (which makes it 25% match) from Turkmenistan. On Y-DNA Haplogroup origins the two Turkmenistan samples are indicated as J-L70 and L1021.

To my knowledge J-L70 samples from Central Asia could possibly be related to Bukharian jews and they are present in Turkmenistan as well - this would in theory prove some ancient israelite origin on the paternal line. Is there a possibility that one of my paternal ancestor was a sephardic jew? Should I dig deeper in the family tree to find some evidence?

Why I turned to this group was that there is another possibility. Possibly some of the "10 lost tribes" migrated to Central Asia. There is even a theory that the pashtuns of Afghanistan and Pakistan are related to them. If it is true, it is possible that these lost jewish tribes or their descendants joined the Huns along the silk road, and this is how their Y-DNA entered the Carpathian Basin eventually.
I found no detailed description of Bukharan jews Y-DNA, there might be Z2177 among them as well. Any ideas? Thanks in advance

Hello friend,

I am Z2177 as well (PH84)

I strongly advise you to take a step further and get a Big-Y, and upload it to YFULL.

L70 presence in Balkans and Southeast Europe is normal. We can't deep dive into your ancestry without further analysis.

The 2 matches from Turkmenistan is the same tester (Hamdollah Zanjani, J-L1021, which is under CTS3601 as Supreeeme informed.).

This is where STR markers mislead people. You do match with completely different SNP marker but you have similar STR's, which mutate much more often.

SUPREEEEEME
10-05-2021, 03:17 PM
Thanks for your detailed answer, I am actually very impressed...

As we have much more Greek autosomal genes than Anatolian, I believe that our paternal line is most likely Greek.
Greek migration to Hungary is well documented, this probably happened in the second half of the 18th century.
Turkish is also possible as we were under the Ottoman rule during the 16-17th century. Not sure about the Italian route

Would you entirely rule out Jewish origin? It is known that Hungary has the highest rate of Jewish genes after Israel, although it is Ashkenazi.
A few things still make me suspicious that it can still be sephardic Jewish.
You said that as I had no Y37 matches, (in fact no Y12 matches either) Jewish ancestry is highly unlikely. Isn't that possible you think that some lineages were completely wiped out during the Holocaust...?

Yes, a Jewish origin for your line is unlikely. As you mentioned, the Jewish ancestry in Hungary is largely Ashkenazi, and there are no Ashkenazi lines within J-Z2177. While it is possible that a Sephardic Jew could test in the future and form a clade with you, I don't think it's very likely.

Cuman
10-05-2021, 03:43 PM
Interesting stuff Cuman and welcome to the forum!...Does your J2a-L70 paternal line come from a village or town in Jász-Nagykun-Szolnok County?

It is a smaller town with a population around 20.000. At the time of the presumed Greek settlement in the 18th century there were like 5-7 Greek merchant families. They built a Greek Catholic Church as well later on, which is not in use for a long time now. Ironically the Jewish merchants who arrived in the mid 19th century replaced them. Most Greek families assimilated, died out or simply moved away.
The largest two ethnic groups were Jewish and Greek.

Cuman
10-05-2021, 04:18 PM
Hello friend,

I am Z2177 as well (PH84)

I strongly advise you to take a step further and get a Big-Y, and upload it to YFULL.

L70 presence in Balkans and Southeast Europe is normal. We can't deep dive into your ancestry without further analysis.

The 2 matches from Turkmenistan is the same tester (Hamdollah Zanjani, J-L1021, which is under CTS3601 as Supreeeme informed.).

This is where STR markers mislead people. You do match with completely different SNP marker but you have similar STR's, which mutate much more often.

Yes I realised that 12 markers (STR) match is far from being perfect, and SNP is indeed a different approach. I will go for BigY one day, maybe not right now... the likely scenario is that I would end up with a haplogroup no one has got :D I have to assume this as I have absolutely no matches above 12 markers on ftdna. Also you said you are PH84, I was tested negative for PH2838 so I cannot be PH84... Well we know that Z2177 is a rare haplogroup, and it seems that I belong to one of its smaller subclades.

The interesting thing is that sometimes ppl say that I look like a Turk (or Turkish) or Cypriot. In Pakistan, Lahore a shopkeeper said I must be from Uzbekistan (he said one thing he was sure of I must be a muslim :)

Initialy we though that we are descendants of the Cumans (Kun in Hungarian) who were Turkic tribes and now completely assimilated. I am not sure if we have any info on Cumans regarding their Y-DNA, most likely not. In theory I cannot completely exclude a possibility that ancient Anatolians carrying Z2177 somehow migrated west and north along the Black Sea and later joined the Cumans on the Eurasian Steppes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumans

Emre Altug
10-05-2021, 04:34 PM
Yes I realised that 12 markers (STR) match is far from being perfect, and SNP is indeed a different approach. I will go for BigY one day, maybe not right now... the likely scenario is that I would end up with a haplogroup no one has got :D I have to assume this as I have absolutely no matches above 12 markers on ftdna. Also you said you are PH84, I was tested negative for PH2838 so I cannot be PH84... Well we know that Z2177 is a rare haplogroup, and it seems that I belong to one of its smaller subclades.

The interesting thing is that sometimes ppl say that I look like a Turk (or Turkish) or Cypriot. In Pakistan, Lahore a shopkeeper said I must be from Uzbekistan (he said one thing he was sure of I must be a muslim :)

Initialy we though that we are descendants of the Cumans (Kun in Hungarian) who were Turkic tribes and now completely assimilated. I am not sure if we have any info on Cumans regarding their Y-DNA, most likely not. In theory I cannot completely exclude a possibility that ancient Anatolians carrying Z2177 somehow migrated west and north along the Black Sea and later joined the Cumans on the Eurasian Steppes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumans

L70 is an extremely widespread haplogroup that probably had its origins from the Mediterranean.

It is concentrated around the Southeast Europe and East Mediterranean, but it can also be found in America, Sweden, South Africa and even China (according to 23Mofang predictions, yes there are L70's in China. But we don't know about their history or deeper subclades.)

Without more ancient samples, or more testers, we can't be really sure what we are :) Even i don't know what my ancestors were. I can't say if i am a Native Anatolian or Turkic.

Yet as the time goes by, i hope we will all know about our origins.

Cuman
10-09-2021, 07:54 AM
Yes, a Jewish origin for your line is unlikely. As you mentioned, the Jewish ancestry in Hungary is largely Ashkenazi, and there are no Ashkenazi lines within J-Z2177. While it is possible that a Sephardic Jew could test in the future and form a clade with you, I don't think it's very likely.

Hi Supreeeeeme,
your knowledge in in this field is very impressive, are you an academic and doing research?
I am strongly considering getting a Big-Y, because it has been really difficult to explore my family tree - unfortunately both surnames and christian names of my ancestors are very common and early 19th century church records are not very detailed... so I'm practically at a dead end in family research - I may want to ask help from en expert genealogist but obviously an other option is to explore further my Y-DNA.
In your opinion, how good our knowledge in classifying for instance smaller subclades of Z2177...? Is there any chance of getting a more precise geographical location for the origin of my DNA? or simply, my results could only help future research in the area since we know very little about Z2177
thanks again,

SUPREEEEEME
10-09-2021, 12:42 PM
Hi Supreeeeeme,
your knowledge in in this field is very impressive, are you an academic and doing research?
I am strongly considering getting a Big-Y, because it has been really difficult to explore my family tree - unfortunately both surnames and christian names of my ancestors are very common and early 19th century church records are not very detailed... so I'm practically at a dead end in family research - I may want to ask help from en expert genealogist but obviously an other option is to explore further my Y-DNA.
In your opinion, how good our knowledge in classifying for instance smaller subclades of Z2177...? Is there any chance of getting a more precise geographical location for the origin of my DNA? or simply, my results could only help future research in the area since we know very little about Z2177
thanks again,

I can't confidently say that we will be able to narrow down a precise geographical region. My opinion is that if you want to upgrade, the BigY is your best bet - I would not recommend upgrading to any other level, especially considering that you don't have any matches at any level. Within the field of Y-DNA, we still have many unknowns which will only be solved when we get more ancient DNA samples. Additionally, many regions, especially where J-L70 is more prevalent, are undertested. Your BigY would help individuals who may test in the future and who form deeper branches with you (which may help your search as well).