PDA

View Full Version : Marsh Arabs of Iraq



NK19191
04-26-2014, 02:10 PM
Here is the link to a study that was done in 2011 on Marsh Arabs. http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/11/288

In search of the genetic footprints of Sumerians: a survey of Y-chromosome and mtDNA variation in the Marsh Arabs of Iraq.


Abstract
BACKGROUND:

For millennia, the southern part of Mesopotamia has been a wetland region generated by the Tigris and Euphrates rivers before flowing into the Gulf. This area has been occupied by human communities since ancient times and the present-day inhabitants, the Marsh Arabs, are considered the population with the strongest link to ancient Sumerians. Popular tradition, however, considers the Marsh Arabs as a foreign group, of unknown origin, which arrived in the marshlands when the rearing of water buffalo was introduced to the region.


RESULTS:

To shed some light on the paternal and maternal origin of this population, Y chromosome and mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) variation was surveyed in 143 Marsh Arabs and in a large sample of Iraqi controls. Analyses of the haplogroups and sub-haplogroups observed in the Marsh Arabs revealed a prevalent autochthonous Middle Eastern component for both male and female gene pools, with weak South-West Asian and African contributions, more evident in mtDNA. A higher male than female homogeneity is characteristic of the Marsh Arab gene pool, likely due to a strong male genetic drift determined by socio-cultural factors (patrilocality, polygamy, unequal male and female migration rates).


CONCLUSIONS:

Evidence of genetic stratification ascribable to the Sumerian development was provided by the Y-chromosome data where the J1-Page08 branch reveals a local expansion, almost contemporary with the Sumerian City State period that characterized Southern Mesopotamia. On the other hand, a more ancient background shared with Northern Mesopotamia is revealed by the less represented Y-chromosome lineage J1-M267*. Overall our results indicate that the introduction of water buffalo breeding and rice farming, most likely from the Indian sub-continent, only marginally affected the gene pool of autochthonous people of the region. Furthermore, a prevalent Middle Eastern ancestry of the modern population of the marshes of southern Iraq implies that if the Marsh Arabs are descendants of the ancient Sumerians, also the Sumerians were most likely autochthonous and not of Indian or South Asian ancestry.

1787178817891790

NK19191
04-26-2014, 02:13 PM
The study offers a host of data on Y-DNA and mtDNA genetics of Iraq and by extension in some cases of the whole West Asian region. http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2011/10/genetics-of-marsh-arabs-iraq.html



Y-DNA (paternal lineages):

Y-DNA is 74.3% a single haplogroup: J1c3 (P58/Page8), however this is most of all J1 also in all other studied populations except the Caucasus. Overall J1 in Marsh Arabs adds up to 81.3%, the rest being E (7.7%), P (7%), J2 (3.5%), G (1.4%) and L (0.7%).

By contrast other Iraqis show a much more diverse Y-DNA pool, with only 31.1% J1 but 24% J2, 21.3% P (of which 17.5% is R1), 13.6% E, 6.5% T (totally absent among Marsh Arabs), 1.9% G and 0.6% L.

Obviously J1 (and J1c3 within it) requires further research but I wonder if this may inform us of the Neolithic (??) scatter southwards of West Asian peoples. Not only Arabia Peninsula was probably recolonized in this period but also southern Iraq as well as far as I know, because there was a time when it was part of the sea. Then people from the North (Samarra culture) apparently colonized the region, becoming the famed Sumerians and founding the first widely acknowledged civilization ever.

The figure above offers us a glimpse of the likely origins of J1 in highland West Asia (Kurdistan, Armenia, Georgia, nearby areas of Turkey), although South Italy also displays surprisingly high diversity I must say. J1c3 may have similar origins.


http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s632/nk191919/1471-2148-11-288-6_zps68d4b49d.jpg


Mitochondrial DNA (maternal lineages):

Table 1 goes into great detail on the lineages of Marsh Arabs and other Iraqis (control group). Notably Marsh Arabs display in comparison with other Iraqis:
significantly more:
Within R: R*, R0a, R2, K1a8, U3, U7, J2
Within N(xR): N1 (N1b and N1c), W
Other: M2, M37e
significantly less:
Within R: R0(xR0a), HV(xH), H, U1
Other: L(xM,N)
roughly the same:
Within R: U(xU1, U3, U7, K1a8), JT(xJ2)
Within N(xR): X2
Overall they display more of some specific R subclades (R0a, R2, K1a8, U3, U7, J2 and the intriguing R*), more N1, more W, more M2 and more M37e.

The most important mtDNA lineages of Marsh Arabs seem to be as follow:
R0 (24.1%)
H* (7.6%)
R0a (6.9%)
HV* (3.4%)
H5 (3.4%)
J (22.7%)
J1b (5.5%)
J2a (4.1%)
U (15.9%)
K1 (6.2%)
U3 (5.5%)
U7 (4.8%)
N1 (8.9%)
N1b1 (4.8%)
N1c (3.4%)
T (7.6%)
T1a (3.4%)
W (4.8%)

NK19191
04-26-2014, 02:17 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdRtIs_AhXw



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWmvIJmv5tU


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXjNTEVwxQA

NK19191
04-26-2014, 02:37 PM
The study made a reference to Samarra Culture. Here is some info from Wikipedia
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7f/Mesopotamia_Per%C3%ADodo_6.PNG



The Samarra culture is a Chalcolithic archaeological culture in northern Mesopotamia that is roughly dated to 5500–4800 BCE. It partially overlaps with Hassuna and early Ubaid. Samarran material culture was first recognized during excavations by German Archaeologist Ernst Herzfeld at the site of Samarra. Other sites where Samarran material has been found include Tell Shemshara, Tell es-Sawwan and Yarim Tepe.[1]

At Tell es-Sawwan, evidence of irrigation—including flax—establishes the presence of a prosperous settled culture with a highly organized social structure. The culture is primarily known for its finely-made pottery decorated against dark-fired backgrounds with stylized figures of animals and birds and geometric designs. This widely-exported type of pottery, one of the first widespread, relatively uniform pottery styles in the Ancient Near East, was first recognized at Samarra. The Samarran Culture was the precursor to the Mesopotamian culture of the Ubaid period.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7f/Mesopotamia_Per%C3%ADodo_6.PNG

RCO
04-26-2014, 02:44 PM
Interesting study and nice videos but the J1 classification is completely wrong because they hadn't the next-gen Y sequencing and the M365 classification in their phylogenetic tree is wrong because we have a M365 cluster negative to J1-Page08 (P58) and negative to L136 (my own cluster) and apparently they found another case of parallel M365 positive to J1-Page08 P58 with the typical Arab STR not related to the other group. There's an old ethnohistorical divide between the ancient and most basal types of J1 (negative to L136 and negative to J1-Page08 - P58) related to the Iranian Plateau and the Semitic types usually associated with J1-Page08 (P58) and the downstream derived SNPs in the Arabian Plate and the Levant, simple as that. One day they will understand this.

Agamemnon
04-26-2014, 03:33 PM
Interesting study and nice videos but the J1 classification is completely wrong because they hadn't the next-gen Y sequencing and the M365 classification in their phylogenetic tree is wrong because we have a M365 cluster negative to J1-Page08 (P58) and negative to L136 (my own cluster) and apparently they found another case of parallel M365 positive to J1-Page08 P58 with the typical Arab STR not related to the other group. There's an old ethnohistorical divide between the ancient and most basal types of J1 (negative to L136 and negative to J1-Page08 - P58) related to the Iranian Plateau and the Semitic types usually associated with J1-Page08 (P58) and the downstream derived SNPs in the Arabian Plate and the Levant, simple as that. One day they will understand this.


That's one of the first things I spotted when this paper came out.
I also find the link between P58 and Sumerians rather spurious.

NK19191
04-26-2014, 03:44 PM
That's one of the first things I spotted when this paper came out.
I also find the link between P58 and Sumerians rather spurious.

Do you know of anyother studies that have been done on Marsh Arabs? This is the only one that I could find.

Agamemnon
04-26-2014, 04:15 PM
Do you know of other studies that have been done on Marsh Arabs? This is the only one that I could find.

I don't think there is another study about them, which is a shame given that this study is relatively poor (all things considered).

Humanist
04-26-2014, 04:57 PM
I don't think there is another study about them, which is a shame given that this study is relatively poor (all things considered).

There was one redeeming bit from this study (EDIT: Actually, it was from a different study Al-Zahery coauthored). At least from the perspective of those interested in Assyrian DNA.

The relevant bit (from the Assyrian Y-DNA thread):


[O]f the cluster characterized by the DYS388-13 and DYS390-23 repeats including North-East Turkish and Assyrian (from Turkey, Iraq and Iran) Y-chromosomes. This cluster harbours also virtually all the M267* Marsh Arab Y chromosomes supporting the previously proposed origin in northern Mesopotamia for the Iraqi Marsh Arabs [20]. However, only a further subdivision of this paragroup will allow a better understanding of times and ways of migrations marked by the M267* Y chromosomes.

Grugni V, Battaglia V, Hooshiar Kashani B, Parolo S, Al-Zahery N, et al. (2012) Ancient Migratory Events in the Middle East: New Clues from the Y-Chromosome Variation of Modern Iranians. PLoS ONE 7(7): e41252. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0041252

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/middle_east_graphic_2003_.jpg

Alanson
04-27-2014, 03:29 AM
Marsh Arabs are settled Bedouins who don't practice nomadism. In Iraq they are disliked by the Desert Bedouin tribes who regard them to be of mixed Persian or even Indian. This was also adopted by other settled Bedouin Shia tribes as well in their attitude toward the Marsh Arabs. This is though a myth.

The Marsh Arabs mtDNA seems similar to that of Arabian population, similar to the Bedouins interesting. Marsh Arabs are Bedouin grouping maybe with some Iranic shift which found in many other Iraqi Arabs.

NK19191
04-28-2014, 01:40 PM
Marsh Arabs are settled Bedouins who don't practice nomadism. In Iraq they are disliked by the Desert Bedouin tribes who regard them to be of mixed Persian or even Indian. This was also adopted by other settled Bedouin Shia tribes as well in their attitude toward the Marsh Arabs. This is though a myth.

The Marsh Arabs mtDNA seems similar to that of Arabian population, similar to the Bedouins interesting. Marsh Arabs are Bedouin grouping maybe with some Iranic shift which found in many other Iraqi Arabs.

Are you basing your assertion of "Settled Bedouins" on another study or this particular study? I am not sure where you get that. If you know of another study ( that is less flawed) please share it with us.

Arbogan
04-28-2014, 01:56 PM
Are you basing your assertion of "Settled Bedouins" on another study or this particular study? I am not sure where you get that. If you know of another study ( that is less flawed) please share it with us.

Actually I'm beginning to think Alanson is right to some extent. I've been looking at the IBD scores of Iraqi arabs, they have a clear affinity to Saudi Arabia and Bedouins. The main difference is that the ones from the south, have almost thrice the amount of affinity as the ones located in the interior of the country. While assyrians with the highest saudi score, have only roughly 1/5 of the saudi score found in the baghdadi iraqi with the least arab affinity.

But this is based on very limited samples. But never the less, it's apparent, that if the pattern is similar for the majority of Iraqi Arabs, one can at least say that most have some real arab ancestry with the remainder being mesopotamian-levantine and persian/kurdish ancestry(hence their higher ANE scores relative to other Arabs). And that would most certainly also go for marsh arabs, who don't look very different from their other peers. But to what extent and how this works out, will remain unknown... until we get some more diverse sampling. But so far, it seems there is truth to the claim about arab ancestry.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadGIxMmNvMEVJYlR2ZWdGYzJtaV9HV 1E#gid=2

I'd encourage people to invite their iraqi arab peers to test themselves with 23andme or any other genetic service.

NK19191
04-28-2014, 02:32 PM
Actually I'm beginning to think Alanson is right to some extent. I've been looking at the IBD scores of Iraqi arabs and their fine structure scores, they have a clear affinity to Saudi Arabia and bedouins. The main difference is that the ones from the south and the ones who're shifted more towards the country, have almost thrice the amount of affinity. But this is based on very limited samples. But never the less, it's apparent, that if the pattern is similar for the majority of iraqi arabs, one can atleast say that most atleast have some real arab ancestry with the remainder being mesopotamian-levantine with persian/kurdish ancestry(hence their higher ANE scores relative to other arabs). And that would most certainly also go for marsh arab, who don't look very different from their other peers. But to what extent and how this works out, will remain unknown... until we get some more and diverse sampling. But so far it seems there is truth to the arab ancestry.

He could very well be right and Marsh Arabs may have significant bedouin ancestry as he speculated, I was not trying to prove him wrong. However, I think because of the scientific nature of this forum, all assertions such the one he made need to be backed by facts.

The reason I made this thread is because I have genuine interest in Marsh Arabs, it seems to me that The marshlands of southern Iraq are unique, and home to a people with distinct characteristics and features. I would be curious to see if their uniqueness is reflected in their genetics.

Interestingly a portion of the Iranian Arabs from Khuzestan Province ( who mainly reside in the western portion of Khuzestan) have somethings in common with the Marsh Arabs, since The Marshlands of Southern Iraq extends into Iran. However, I really don't know if that extends in having common ancestors. Interestingly enough the construction of of Mudhīf (reed house) which according to the video can be traced to the Sumerians also occurs in the western region of Khuzestan.


Edit: By the way I just checked the link you provided. Thanks for sharing. I see that, I wonder if that extends to the Marsh Arabs and even some Iranian Arabs. I agree it would be nice to have more people from that part of the world tested.

Arbogan
04-28-2014, 02:48 PM
He could very well be right and Marsh Arabs may have significant bedouin ancestry as he speculated, I was not trying to prove him wrong. However, I think because of the scientific nature of this forum, all assertions such the one he made need to be backed by facts.

The reason I made this thread is because I have genuine interest in Marsh Arabs, it seems to me that The marshlands of southern Iraq are unique, and home to a people with distinct characteristics and features. I would be curious to see if their uniqueness is reflected in their genetics.

Interestingly a portion of the Iranian Arabs from Khuzestan Province ( who mainly reside in the western portion of Khuzestan) have somethings in common with the Marsh Arabs, since The Marshlands of Southern Iraq extends into Iran. However, I really don't know if that extends in having common ancestors. Interestingly enough the construction of of Mudhīf (reed house) which according to the video can be traced to the Sumerians also occurs in the western region of Khuzestan.


Edit: By the way I just checked the link you provided. Thanks for sharing. I see that, I wonder if that extends to the Marsh Arabs and even some Iranian Arabs. I agree it would be nice to have more people from that part of the world tested.


I think so... look at the affinity for behar Iranians in this heat-map posted by humanist(Syrians and Saudis). The affinity is absent in dodecad-kurds. I have to retract my previous position, of arab ancestry in iran. It seems more common than I initially thought.
http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/heatmap.png


But still, it's too early for conclusions. I think we west-asians and middle-easterners should start our own project. So far, all the info we have, is derived from polako and dienekes who've monopolized the open dna projects and mostly focus on European issues, while harappa focuses on indians. If someone technically savvy and committed, with a focus on middle-east could start one, we could have answers to a lot more questions marks.

Alanson
04-28-2014, 08:57 PM
Are you basing your assertion of "Settled Bedouins" on another study or this particular study? I am not sure where you get that. If you know of another study ( that is less flawed) please share it with us.

I actually I am basing it with this study especially the mtDNA. The MtDNA seems very much similar to that of the Arabian Bedouin groupings. Not only this but Iraqi oral tradition as well. The Iraqi oral tradition which states that the Marsh Arabs are of Bedouin origins. One example there is a tribe called the Bani Lam who is part of the Marsh Arabs, this was originally a Sunni tribe before they shifted to Shiaism, and are the sister tribe of the Shammar from the Tayy group. The same is true of Abu Muhammad also originally a Sunni but shifted to Shiaism. Their culture and code are very Bedouin in nature. Why do other especially Desert Bedouin tribes look down on the Marsh Arabs it's due to the fact they settled and adopted Shiaism, and also the believe they are of Indo-Persian ancestry, a myth that honestly no one knows when it has originated. The myth has often was used to marginalize the Marsh Arabs or see them as Persian/Aryan tress passers on Semitic Arab land. Genetics has ruled that out. I do remember that an old study conclude that the Marsh Arabs were mostly of Arabian origins coming from what now Saudi, this was 2001 study, but this study despite it flaws shows the same conclusion based on Y and mtDNa lineages. I think if they are good proxy of the Sumerians, this might in fact give evidence and support of the theory that they originated in what is now Eastern Arabia Dilmun, although this might sound somewhat Arabocentric lol.

Arbogan
04-29-2014, 07:01 AM
I actually I am basing it with this study especially the mtDNA. The MtDNA seems very much similar to that of the Arabian Bedouin groupings. Not only this but Iraqi oral tradition as well. The Iraqi oral tradition which states that the Marsh Arabs are of Bedouin origins. One example there is a tribe called the Bani Lam who is part of the Marsh Arabs, this was originally a Sunni tribe before they shifted to Shiaism, and are the sister tribe of the Shammar from the Tayy group. The same is true of Abu Muhammad also originally a Sunni but shifted to Shiaism. Their culture and code are very Bedouin in nature. Why do other especially Desert Bedouin tribes look down on the Marsh Arabs it's due to the fact they settled and adopted Shiaism, and also the believe they are of Indo-Persian ancestry, a myth that honestly no one knows when it has originated. The myth has often was used to marginalize the Marsh Arabs or see them as Persian/Aryan tress passers on Semitic Arab land. Genetics has ruled that out. I do remember that an old study conclude that the Marsh Arabs were mostly of Arabian origins coming from what now Saudi, this was 2001 study, but this study despite it flaws shows the same conclusion based on Y and mtDNa lineages. I think if they are good proxy of the Sumerians, this might in fact give evidence and support of the theory that they originated in what is now Eastern Arabia Dilmun, although this might sound somewhat Arabocentric lol.

There are some Sumerian age skeletal remains found in Iraq. I remember that the 20th century anthropologist Carlton Coon, wrote about them and perfomed physical analysis of them. I wonder if you could still find some viable dna from sumerian remains. In fact it would be interesting if more studies were done about ancient era peoples. I have no idea why archaeologists are completely enmeshed in trying to find prehistoric links to neanderthals and prehistoric humans. It's interesting but also seemingly futile... with lack of samples and erroding enviroment.

Humanist
04-29-2014, 12:31 PM
There are some Sumerian age skeletal remains found in Iraq. I remember that the 20th century anthropologist Carlton Coon, wrote about them and perfomed physical analysis of them. I wonder if you could still find some viable dna from sumerian remains.

There are a few hundred Sumerian remains stored at universities and museums in Europe and North America. Regarding the testing of the remains of one supposed Sumerian specifically, this is what Dr. Margaret Clegg of London's Natural History Museum stated in 2010:


If a suitable project [for the testing of Queen Pu-abi's remains] were proposed by a research team at an academic institution we would still need to consider any such application very carefully under our policies and procedures for destructive testing.

parasar
04-29-2014, 02:06 PM
... I think if they are good proxy of the Sumerians, this might in fact give evidence and support of the theory that they originated in what is now Eastern Arabia Dilmun, although this might sound somewhat Arabocentric lol.

Do we have any proof - oral legends or written - prior to the European colonial period that Dilmun is Eastern Arabia (incld. the island of Bahrain)?

Alanson
04-30-2014, 06:49 AM
Do we have any proof - oral legends or written - prior to the European colonial period that Dilmun is Eastern Arabia (incld. the island of Bahrain)?

From what I know Dilmun was mentioned in the Epic of Gilgamesh. This island was believed to have been legendary but then it appeared that the civilization to have been present in Bahrain and Eastern Arabia. Although most people in Bahrain and Eastern Arabia did claim Sumerian ancestry, at times via Abraham or of the civilization itself. Also there is some connection to the civilization in the UAE of Umm Nar. This in itself makes me happy, because the idiots who say Arabia never had civilization when it seems it did, and only the interior Desert region did not. Now if they are going to test the Sumerian remains genetically and if it matches with Marsh Arabs and Eastern Arabians, we can conclude that the Sumerians probably were from the East of Arabia and this would make the most logical sense. Especially since people believe the Semitic languages might have originated outside of Arabia, if this is the case than Sumerian like languages might have been the one spoken. There still trying to find out, there is now more discoveries from Bahrain and Eastern Saudi Arabia that seems to give us clues.

NK19191
04-30-2014, 12:14 PM
From what I know Dilmun was mentioned in the Epic of Gilgamesh. This island was believed to have been legendary but then it appeared that the civilization to have been present in Bahrain and Eastern Arabia. Although most people in Bahrain and Eastern Arabia did claim Sumerian ancestry, at times via Abraham or of the civilization itself. Also there is some connection to the civilization in the UAE of Umm Nar. This in itself makes me happy, because the idiots who say Arabia never had civilization when it seems it did, and only the interior Desert region did not. Now if they are going to test the Sumerian remains genetically and if it matches with Marsh Arabs and Eastern Arabians, we can conclude that the Sumerians probably were from the East of Arabia and this would make the most logical sense. Especially since people believe the Semitic languages might have originated outside of Arabia, if this is the case than Sumerian like languages might have been the one spoken. There still trying to find out, there is now more discoveries from Bahrain and Eastern Saudi Arabia that seems to give us clues.

@Alanson, IMO, Many of your posts make too many assumptions and suppositions which may or may not be accurate and precise. IMO, your posts in this thread are very consistent and undeviating with your other posts which make way too many assumptions. (Again I am not stating that you are wrong) Also if you could please provide the sources for some of your posts (especially the ones that have historical information) it would be highly appreciated, your posts as a rule never provide any sources, many users here provide ample sources and that is why it makes this forum very informative and useful.



The oldest settlement on Failaka was long thought to have been founded in about 1800 B.C. by the Dilmunites, a maritime people who likely hailed from what are today’s Bahraini and Saudi Arabian coasts, and who controlled Persian Gulf trade. But on Failaka’s southwest corner, a team from Denmark’s Moesgård Museum has uncovered evidence that Mesopotamians arrived at least a century before the Dilmunites. The finds are centered on a recently unearthed Mesopotamian-style building typical of those found on the nearby Iraqi mainland dating from around 2000 B.C. The structure was later partially covered by a Dilmunite temple

Link to Source http://www.archaeology.org/issues/79-1303/features/kuwait/548-meopotamian-ur-traders

Agamemnon
04-30-2014, 02:10 PM
I think so... look at the affinity for behar Iranians in this heat-map posted by humanist(Syrians and Saudis). The affinity is absent in dodecad-kurds. I have to retract my previous position, of arab ancestry in iran. It seems more common than I initially thought.
http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/heatmap.png


But still, it's too early for conclusions. I think we west-asians and middle-easterners should start our own project. So far, all the info we have, is derived from polako and dienekes who've monopolized the open dna projects and mostly focus on European issues, while harappa focuses on indians. If someone technically savvy and committed, with a focus on middle-east could start one, we could have answers to a lot more questions marks.

I think you're right to some extent, and that a ME-specific project would prove very beneficial to our understanding of the area's history and genetic make-up.

Arbogan
04-30-2014, 02:22 PM
Another interesting thing I observed about the baghdadi iraqi on the IBD analysis.... his affinities are roughly 2.81/2.89 in his affinities towards semitic groups with the most arab ancestry and the groups with the least ancestry. Which if we go off the bat in guessing... that means that the baghdad iraqis have in overall a bit more affinity with genetically least arab ethnicities. But the overall ancestry of arabized middle-easterners, even the ones with the most arab ancestry, the arab is seemingly lower. If we accept the zalloua study. So if i had to make a rough estimate that is reasonable... urban iraqi arabs, just based on this one are like 65-70% pre-islamic and 30-35% arabic, which is a reasonable estimate, I think and pretty close to the most arabized like syria and jordanians roughly are. Maybe they have a little higher pre-islamic ancestry, since they seem to carry less east-african proportions than their arabized neighbours(but not lower than lebanese) and from what I've seen on PCA plots on 23andme and on their overall admixture composition, they're heading towards assyrians and iranians, and don't cluster with palestinians, druze or bedouins. Which means they have relatively high north-east semitic(assyrian/akkadian) and additionally iranic ancestry. What I find interesting is that some oriental Jews and Ashkenazim groups came of as higher in affinity than the Assyrians in the affinity rates for the iraqi arab, is possible due to the admixture of oriental jews with arabs? So perhaps pre-islamic jews absorbed more arabic-like ancestry than assyrians. I mean it seems apparent that jews absorbed some desert-nomad-herder groups( even ashkenazi jews score arab). After all the torah does mention midianites, who probably were prehistoric ancestors of north-arabians. It's really hard to say, I'm far from experienced with IBD, like most i'm ignorant of it's parameters and how useful the Beagle FastIBD program is for sifting through recent and ancient ancestry.

Agamemnon
04-30-2014, 02:50 PM
Another interesting thing I observed about the baghdadi iraqi on the IBD analysis.... his affinities are roughly 2.81/2.89 in his affinities towards semitic groups with the most arab ancestry and the groups with the least ancestry. Which if we go off the bat in guessing... that means that the baghdad iraqis have in overall a bit more affinity with genetically least arab ethnicities. But the overall ancestry of arab middle-easterners, even the ones with the most arab ancestry, the arab is seemingly lower. If we accept the zalloua study. So if i had to make a rough estimate that is reasonable... urban iraqi arabs, just based on this one are like 65-70% pre-islamic and 30-35% arabic, which is a reasonable estimate, I think and pretty close to the most arabized like syria and jordanians roughly are. Maybe they have a little higher pre-islamic ancestry, since they seem to carry less east-african segments than their neighbours(but not lower than lebanese) and from what i've seen on PCA plots on 23andme and on their overall admixture composition, they're heading towards assyrians and iranians, and don't cluster with palestinians, druze or bedouins. Which means they have relatively high north-east semitic(assyrian/akkadian). What I find interesting is that some oriental Jews and Ashkenazim groups came of as higher in affinity than the Assyrians in the affinity rates, is possible due to the admixture of oriental jews with arabs? So perhaps pre-islamic jews absorbed more arabic-like ancestry than assyrians. I mean it seem apparent that jews absorbed some desert-nomad-herder groups. After all the torah does mention midianites, who probably were prehistoric ancestors of north-arabians.

Well on the graph we can clearly see Ashkenazim have mild IBD sharing with Syrians and Armenians.... As well as Kurds & Iranians.
My guess is that pre-exilic Jews already were a mixed bunch, with ancestry from Mesopotamia as well as the Aegean (I'm not a fan of wipeout theories to explain the sudden disappearance of the Philistines, and indeed Hebrew has several Philistine loanwords), so I don't think Aramean, Egyptian or even Arab ancestry is a stretch (especially considering the fact that the neighbouring Nabateans and Idumeans often ended up converting to Judaism).

I tend to take the Biblical stuff with a few tons of salt, while there is a basis of truth to each myth experience has taught me to keep a skeptical mindset (I question the historicity of Biblical figures, along with several Biblical events such as the Exodus and the "conquest" of Canaan [while I acknowledge the Exodus might have something to do with the Hyksos' expulsion, the Biblical tale is far from reliable for several reasons]).

Either way, pre-islamic Arab ancestry would explain some of the odd-looking J1 SNPs we find in Ashkenazim... Same thing for the Arameans.

But it's too early to say, we're in dire need of genome wide studies on near eastern aDNA samples.

Arbogan
04-30-2014, 02:54 PM
Well on the graph we can clearly see Ashkenazim have mild IBD sharing with Syrians and Armenians.... As well as Kurds & Iranians.
My guess is that pre-exilic Jews already were a mixed bunch, with ancestry from Mesopotamia as well as the Aegean (I'm not a fan of wipeout theories to explain the sudden disappearance of the Philistines, and indeed Hebrew has several Philistine loanwords), so I don't think Aramean, Egyptian or even Arab ancestry is a stretch (especially considering the fact that the neighbouring Nabateans and Idumeans often ended up converting to Judaism).

I tend to take the Biblical stuff with a few tons of salt, while there is a basis of truth to each myth experience has taught me to keep a skeptical mindset (I question the historicity of Biblical figures, along with several Biblical events such as the Exodus and the "conquest" of Canaan [while I acknowledge the Exodus might have something to do with the Hyksos' expulsion, the Biblical tale is far from reliable for several reasons]).

Either way, pre-islamic Arab ancestry would explain some of the odd-looking J1 SNPs we find in Ashkenazim... Same thing for the Arameans.

But it's too early to say, we're in dire need of genome wide studies on near eastern aDNA samples.

It's a pity... our groups are supposed to be a good capitalists... yet we cannot get this going :P. We need to get a large study involving samples with everywhere from north-caucasus to arabia to afghanistan to the levant, with every ethnicity inbetween to get a good in-depth understanding of our region.

parasar
04-30-2014, 03:45 PM
From what I know Dilmun was mentioned in the Epic of Gilgamesh. This island was believed to have been legendary but then it appeared that the civilization to have been present in Bahrain and Eastern Arabia. Although most people in Bahrain and Eastern Arabia did claim Sumerian ancestry, at times via Abraham or of the civilization itself. Also there is some connection to the civilization in the UAE of Umm Nar. This in itself makes me happy, because the idiots who say Arabia never had civilization when it seems it did, and only the interior Desert region did not. Now if they are going to test the Sumerian remains genetically and if it matches with Marsh Arabs and Eastern Arabians, we can conclude that the Sumerians probably were from the East of Arabia and this would make the most logical sense. Especially since people believe the Semitic languages might have originated outside of Arabia, if this is the case than Sumerian like languages might have been the one spoken. There still trying to find out, there is now more discoveries from Bahrain and Eastern Saudi Arabia that seems to give us clues.

We owe the Arabs for a lot of things covering the whole gamut of what we consider civilization - I would not worry about folk who say that Arabia never had a civilization!
It's just in my opinion, though, that Dilmun was not one of them, which I think lay to the east of Sumer.

How far east? I would set the boundary at SE Asia as we do know from the Terqa clove that links existed between 1721bc Mesopotamia and Molucca.
http://books.google.com/books?id=rhQxc4GW8soC&pg=PA54

Looking for additional clues:

We know the items that were shipped in from Dilmun - ivory, lapis lazuli, precious stones, pearls, wood, etc. These items hardly look to have a Bahraini provenance.
http://books.google.com/books?id=iY9xp4pLp88C&pg=PA283

Dilmun was in the east - "place where the sun rises." From the perspective of Ur it is very doubtful that Bahrain would be considered an eastern land.
http://books.google.com/books?id=iY9xp4pLp88C&pg=PA283

"documents from Persian times and later always translate Tilmun as India"
http://books.google.com/books?id=8ZF_Jw5GdjAC&pg=PT94

The 'Dilmun' weights and measures were the Indus Valley weights and measures.
"Dilmun mostly used the Indus Valley system of weights and measures and carried square Indus Valley seals"
http://books.google.com/books?id=_ez3ih5JgzUC&pg=PA46

The epic Gilgamesh you mention, has features while perhaps not common to the mid-east, is standard practice in Austranesian lands. The Austranesians colonized via the sea and took multiple species of plants and animals with them (along with sighting birds) so that they could propagate in foreign lands. The raven, mentioned in the epic (the Judaic version has reversed the order), was used to sight land. Polynesians have refined it into an art form - their frigate sighting bird is water phobic and only flies away from the ship when it sees land. The Polynesians were superb star-gazers too.

Linguistically Sumerian is considered an isolate, but it does share a number of features with Austric languages. The problem is that Sumerian disappeared a long while back and we have no evidence of how Austric was in 4000bc, so any linguistic connection is at best tenuous.
"If Diakonoff's proposal was borne out, the Rgvedic Para-Munda substrate in the Panjab of c. 1500 BCE would represent an early link to Sumerian. Notably, Sumerologists though without any firm reasons going beyond some vague mythological allusion to more eastern territories (Dilmun, etc.), think that the Sumerians immigrated from the east, from the Indus area."
http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/MT-Substrates.pdf
"34 lexical items which are common to Sumerian and Kherwari"
http://www.scribd.com/doc/198569163/Diakonoff-More-on-Possible-Linguistic-Connections-of-the-Sumerians

I have a feeling that Sumerians were a similar people to the intrusive element seen in Stage One at Mehrgarh.
"Stage One population at Mehrgarh shared little with this western population, but had features pointing to a biological heritage to the east of the Subcontinent."
http://books.google.com/books?id=pmAuAsi4ePIC&pg=PA35

Arbogan
04-30-2014, 06:04 PM
Anyway I think i've gotten closer to the question about iraqis and autosomes. It definitely seems that iraqis somewhere inbetween arabs and iranians. I had to make a few observations on 23andme, to get an idea. Since the iraqis seem to be absent in any PCA plots created on open dna projects(and there is total absence of autosmal tests of iraqi arabs)

Ok i know this isn't the best image, it's very crude and i apologize for the poor image quality. But if you look closer at the screen(please lean in, the indicator arrows are small), you can see the patterns I'm seeing.

As you can see. The very southern iraqi clusters with bedouins, which all the saudis do and probably indicates pure arab ancestry. While the main iraqi cluster(which also contains a half-balkar/half iraqi arab, the iraqi arab parent likely being pure) seems to go north-east, neither clustering with palestinians or druze(as neighbouring lebanese, syrians, jordanians, aswell as jews and assyrians do). While the iraqi-arab shiah from baghdad, is an obvious outlier with iranian ancestry, putting him inbetween south and central iranians(2 southern iranians and one esfahani) and the main iraqi-arab cluster. The main iranian cluster is a bit north-west of the southern iranian one. So there you go. Iraqi arabs are inbetween Arabia and Iran, ancestrally. If we could get a few more iraqi-arab samples.

http://oi57.tinypic.com/2d6sm1j.jpg

Humanist
04-30-2014, 07:38 PM
As you can see. The very southern iraqi clusters with bedouins, which all the saudis do and probably indicates pure arab ancestry. While the main iraqi cluster(which also contains a half-balkar/half iraqi arab, the iraqi arab parent likely being pure) seems to go north-east, neither clustering with palestinians or druze(as neighbouring lebanese, syrians, jordanians, aswell as jews and assyrians do).

There are far better tools for comparing these populations than that particular 23andMe tool. Any analysis that cannot distinguish between Lebanese, Syrians, Jordanians, Jews, Assyrians, etc. is extremely dated, in my opinion.

For instance, this past Eurogenes MDS. The Iraqi Arab from Baghdad is shifted a bit toward the Iranian cluster, whilst the S Iraqi is shifted toward the Levant and Arabian clusters.

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x372/paulgiva78/passover/Eurogenes_v2_MDS_ME__-1.jpg

Arbogan
04-30-2014, 07:41 PM
There are far better tools for comparing these populations than that particular 23andMe tool. Any analysis that cannot distinguish between Lebanese, Syrians, Jordanians, Jews, Assyrians, etc. is extremely dated, in my opinion.

For instance, this past Eurogenes MDS. The Iraqi Arab from Baghdad is shifted a bit toward the Iranian cluster, whilst the S Iraqi is shifted toward the Levant and Arabian clusters.

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x372/paulgiva78/passover/Eurogenes_v2_MDS_ME__-1.jpg

Sorry, i wasn't aware of it. Could you link the info... it would very helpful.

Palisto
04-30-2014, 08:31 PM
Well on the graph we can clearly see Ashkenazim have mild IBD sharing with Syrians and Armenians.... As well as Kurds & Iranians.
My guess is that pre-exilic Jews already were a mixed bunch, with ancestry from Mesopotamia as well as the Aegean (I'm not a fan of wipeout theories to explain the sudden disappearance of the Philistines, and indeed Hebrew has several Philistine loanwords), so I don't think Aramean, Egyptian or even Arab ancestry is a stretch (especially considering the fact that the neighbouring Nabateans and Idumeans often ended up converting to Judaism).

I tend to take the Biblical stuff with a few tons of salt, while there is a basis of truth to each myth experience has taught me to keep a skeptical mindset (I question the historicity of Biblical figures, along with several Biblical events such as the Exodus and the "conquest" of Canaan [while I acknowledge the Exodus might have something to do with the Hyksos' expulsion, the Biblical tale is far from reliable for several reasons]).

Either way, pre-islamic Arab ancestry would explain some of the odd-looking J1 SNPs we find in Ashkenazim... Same thing for the Arameans.

But it's too early to say, we're in dire need of genome wide studies on near eastern aDNA samples.

The "odd-looking J1 SNPs we find in Ashkenazim" were also found in the Kurd N91920. He is J1c3 and he shares the SNP L817+ with the J1c3* Jewish Cluster A. Thus, the closest and the only Middle Eastern relative of the J1c3* Jewish Cluster A is a Kurdish individual.

We also know that "odd-looking" R1a-M582 in Ashkenazi Jews was mostly found in Iranians, especially Kurds.
We also know that "odd-looking" mtDNA HV1b2 in Ashkenazi Jews was found in one Yezidi Kurd.

The Arab Baghdadi (http://kurdishdna.blogspot.com/2014/02/autosomal-dna-from-iraq.html) show some of the Northern European component (~2%) in Dodecad K12b suggesting some admixture with Kurds or other Iranians. Humanist's plot suggests the same.

Humanist
04-30-2014, 10:01 PM
Sorry, i wasn't aware of it. Could you link the info... it would very helpful.

It is from a couple of years ago. From ABF. Taken from data posted in one of the Eurogenes threads by Polako.

Agamemnon
04-30-2014, 10:32 PM
The "odd-looking J1 SNPs we find in Ashkenazim" were also found in the Kurd N91920. He is J1c3 and he shares the SNP L817+ with the J1c3* Jewish Cluster A. Thus, the closest and the only Middle Eastern relative of the J1c3* Jewish Cluster A is a Kurdish individual.

We also know that "odd-looking" R1a-M582 in Ashkenazi Jews was mostly found in Iranians, especially Kurds.
We also know that "odd-looking" mtDNA HV1b2 in Ashkenazi Jews was found in one Yezidi Kurd.

I am well aware of the J-L817 cases, as well as the R1a-M582 clade... I think both might've pervaded the Jewish gene pool during the Babylonian exile.
Either that or some earlier event (such as the coming of the Mitanni, another good explanation for R1a-M582, but it's a second candidate for obvious reasons).

Either way, I wasn't referring to L817 in particular.

parasar
05-01-2014, 02:07 AM
Here is the link to a study that was done in 2011 on Marsh Arabs. http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/11/288

In search of the genetic footprints of Sumerians: a survey of Y-chromosome and mtDNA variation in the Marsh Arabs of Iraq.








CONCLUSIONS: Evidence of genetic stratification ascribable to the Sumerian development was provided by the Y-chromosome data where the J1-Page08 branch reveals a local expansion, almost contemporary with the Sumerian City State period that characterized Southern Mesopotamia. On the other hand, a more ancient background shared with Northern Mesopotamia is revealed by the less represented Y-chromosome lineage J1-M267*. Overall our results indicate that the introduction of water buffalo breeding and rice farming, most likely from the Indian sub-continent, only marginally affected the gene pool of autochthonous people of the region. Furthermore, a prevalent Middle Eastern ancestry of the modern population of the marshes of southern Iraq implies that if the Marsh Arabs are descendants of the ancient Sumerians, also the Sumerians were most likely autochthonous and not of Indian or South Asian ancestry.


Compared to the above, I think Zahery's prior conclusion is far more likely:


Y chromosome (MSY) revealed that more than 80% of marsh Y chromosomes belong to (Hg) J1-M267, the autochthonous haplogroup of Middle Eastern/Semitic speakers with possible recent expansion and/or founder effect reflected by the reduced STRs variability. In particular, 90% of them were assigned to the J1e-M267-PAGE08 sub-haplogroup, which is the predominant Y chromosome lineage among Middle Eastern Arab populations (Yemen, Qatar, UAE, and Levant). Thus, these findings testify, at least from the paternal side, a strong Semitic Arabian component in the contemporary Mesopotamia marshes population

The male gene pool of the contemporary Mesopotamia marsh population supports their Semitic origin. N. Al-Zahery1, J. A. Irwin2, V. Battaglia1, M. A. Hamod3, V. Grugni1, A. S. Santachiara-Benerecetti1, O. Semino1 1) Department of Genetics and Microbiology, Pavia University, Via Ferrata 1, 27100 Pavia, Italy; 2) Research Department, Armed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory (AFDIL), 1413 Research Blvd, Rockville, MD 20850, USA; 3) Department of Biotechnology, Faculty of Sciences, Baghdad University, Baghdad, Iraq.

Palisto
05-01-2014, 08:25 AM
Compared to the above, I think Zahery's prior conclusion is far more likely:


The male gene pool of the contemporary Mesopotamia marsh population supports their Semitic origin. N. Al-Zahery1, J. A. Irwin2, V. Battaglia1, M. A. Hamod3, V. Grugni1, A. S. Santachiara-Benerecetti1, O. Semino1 1) Department of Genetics and Microbiology, Pavia University, Via Ferrata 1, 27100 Pavia, Italy; 2) Research Department, Armed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory (AFDIL), 1413 Research Blvd, Rockville, MD 20850, USA; 3) Department of Biotechnology, Faculty of Sciences, Baghdad University, Baghdad, Iraq.

The Marsh Arabs are a very small minority of Muslim Iraqis (125,000-150,000 in Iraq based on Wikipedia), they don't represent Muslim Iraqis but themselves. Due to their small population size they show a dramatically reduced haplogroup diversity. Their Y-haplogroup diversity don't matter at all, only their STR values are sort of interesting.

In this study Marsh Arabs also lack J diversity (0% J2-M47, 0% J2-M410, 0% J2-M67, 0% J2-M92, 0% J2-M68, 0% J2-M12, J2-M241) but they have 73% (!!!) J1-PAGE08. Of course they also lack R diversity compared to their neighbors.

Al-Zahery et al., 2011 (the famous study about Marsh Arabs) wrote about the Marsh Arab:
"A higher male than female homogeneity is characteristic of the Marsh Arab gene pool, LIKELY DUE TO A STRONG MALE GENETIC DRIFT determined by socio-cultural factors (patrilocality, polygamy, unequal male and female migration rates). "

Afshar
12-14-2015, 07:12 PM
Maybe the wrong topic, but is there ydna str data published (other than in the article and specifically q haplogroup) from the sumerian paper? Wonder if they relate to the so called arabic cluster of qm25, which are mainly arabs from the gulf coast and an iraqi.