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View Full Version : L21>D13 and nothing further or some yet unknown haplogroup?



Little bit
04-27-2014, 02:57 PM
Is it possible that my grandfather's Welsh L21>D13 (Griffith) goes no further than DF13 or has this clade not been assigned a terminal snp? Post FTDNA update, when haplogroups were supposed to be narrowed down better, only 3 of his 10 matches even have a haplogroup assigned: one R1b1a M269 and 2 R1b1a1a1a1a1 L21's. The other 7 have no Y-DNA haplogroup or terminal snp assigned despite being tested to 67 (6 of them) and 111 (1 of them) markers. Why would they test so far and not be assigned anything? The surnames are Lewis, Jones, Scott, Allen, Brown, and Rowberry (I'm surprised there was no Smith!). Btw, my grandpa only got 1 match at 12 markers - surname Griffith match.

Plugging his 67 markers into the L21 predictor tool gives him a zero probability for all the snp's listed but I did try DF41 and he was negative. Here are his markers in case anyone recognizes anything familiar or informative:
13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 10 13 13 32 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 18 29 15-15-17-17 10 11 19-23 16 15 17 17 36-39 11 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 9 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 14 8 11 23 21 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12

Could this be a rare ancient clade with few members left or should I keep looking for another terminal snp? It's very disappointing that DF13 didn't get recognized in the update but it's probably just as uninformative due to it's commonality as L21 so it doesn't matter much.

George Chandler
04-28-2014, 02:37 PM
Is it possible that my grandfather's Welsh L21>D13 (Griffith) goes no further than DF13 or has this clade not been assigned a terminal snp? Post FTDNA update, when haplogroups were supposed to be narrowed down better, only 3 of his 10 matches even have a haplogroup assigned: one R1b1a M269 and 2 R1b1a1a1a1a1 L21's. The other 7 have no Y-DNA haplogroup or terminal snp assigned despite being tested to 67 (6 of them) and 111 (1 of them) markers. Why would they test so far and not be assigned anything? The surnames are Lewis, Jones, Scott, Allen, Brown, and Rowberry (I'm surprised there was no Smith!). Btw, my grandpa only got 1 match at 12 markers - surname Griffith match.

Plugging his 67 markers into the L21 predictor tool gives him a zero probability for all the snp's listed but I did try DF41 and he was negative. Here are his markers in case anyone recognizes anything familiar or informative:
13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 10 13 13 32 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 18 29 15-15-17-17 10 11 19-23 16 15 17 17 36-39 11 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 9 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 14 8 11 23 21 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12

Could this be a rare ancient clade with few members left or should I keep looking for another terminal snp? It's very disappointing that DF13 didn't get recognized in the update but it's probably just as uninformative due to it's commonality as L21 so it doesn't matter much.

Sometimes it can be difficult to predict the next SNP under DF13 because of it's age. It's a bit of hit and miss in some ways but testing negative is an answer in itself. There are some new SNP's being offered through YSEQ which may be helpful to you (FGC5496,S1051,FGC9655,FGC9657,FGC9658,FGC9661,CTS 4466). You could test all of those and be negative but they are newer and it's possible you could test positive for 1 or more. I would honestly start testing the well known main SNP's below DF13 such as L513,DF49,Z253 etc. You can always see if Thomas and Astrid can do up a group of all the main SNP's for you to test but at $25.00/per SNP right now and the quick turn around time on results it's still a good deal. The other option is to get the FGC Full Y test done or the Big Y done through FTDNA. Just looking at the results it looks like a L21* or P312 but if you've tested positive for DF13 that's interesting.

George

Little bit
04-28-2014, 03:30 PM
Thank you for your response. I am most hopeful about FGC5496 but I'm waiting for a calculator that includes it to see if he's close enough for the STR haplotype to take a risk. My grandfather passed away last September and had no sons so there is no chance for another test elsewhere or more sample for FTDNA so I must be careful not to take tests with no chance of a positive result. :)