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View Full Version : Looking for fellow Ui Maine, Ui Fiachrach Finn & Neachtain/Naughton/Norton



Nort
10-21-2021, 07:42 PM
Just got my YDNA results (I did WGS, so I went thru YFULL), and I am trying to find my ancient Irish clan affiliation - and understand what I've got here.
My results: m222 > df105/df109 > FGC23742 > a1206+

Yes, right next to that interesting swedish cluster.

Yfull live version is showing me in a new subclade - A1206 > R-FGC23097 - with one other person, a Naughton
This shows me that just maybe this could be a new pocket in the YDNA tree for O'Neachtains.

Ui Fiachrach Finn: https://www.libraryireland.com/names/irishclans/ui-fiachrach-finn.php
Naughton Pedigree: https://www.libraryireland.com/Pedigrees1/naghten-heremon.php
Family name - Norton - comes from Naughton/Neachtain: https://www.libraryireland.com/names/on/o-neachtain.php

Legend gives me 2 different lineages for my ancestor Maine Mor, one goes thru Colla Chrioch and the other thru Niall. It would appear I do not descend from Colla since I am m222+

Maybe Maine Mor really was a grandson of Niall?

So what can we do here? I want to know more!

MacUalraig
10-21-2021, 09:02 PM
Just got my YDNA results (I did WGS, so I went thru YFULL), and I am trying to find my ancient Irish clan affiliation - and understand what I've got here.
My results: m222 > df105/df109 > FGC23742 > a1206+

Yes, right next to that interesting swedish cluster.

Yfull live version is showing me in a new subclade - A1206 > R-FGC23097 - with one other person, a Naughton
This shows me that just maybe this could be a new pocket in the YDNA tree for O'Neachtains.

Ui Fiachrach Finn: https://www.libraryireland.com/names/irishclans/ui-fiachrach-finn.php
Naughton Pedigree: https://www.libraryireland.com/Pedigrees1/naghten-heremon.php
Family name - Norton - comes from Naughton/Neachtain: https://www.libraryireland.com/names/on/o-neachtain.php

Legend gives me 2 different lineages for my ancestor Maine Mor, one goes thru Colla Chrioch and the other thru Niall. It would appear I do not descend from Colla since I am m222+

Maybe Maine Mor really was a grandson of Niall?

So what can we do here? I want to know more!

Congrats, please join the M222 project (need to be logged in):

https://yfull.com/groups/r-m222/create-join-request/

cheers

Nort
10-24-2021, 06:18 PM
Thanks for the invite, I joined the m222 group.

I guess I am just looking for some insight guys, I've only been working on this for a little bit now but it seems to me that my results don't match with the legend ( a shocker, I know..).

I'm "supposed" to be Ui Fiachrach Finn, a direct descendant of Maine Mor, and then legend says also of Colla Chrioch. Not only that, but in fact - O'Neachtain is supposed to be the most senior of all the tribes of Ui Maine since Fiachrach Fionn was the most senior of the sons of Breasal, son of Maine Mor. We got superceded by the O'Kelly's as the ruling line, but retained many privileges:

Because of their ranking status, John O'Donovan points out in his Tribes and Customs of the Hy-Many, the ancestors of the O'Neachtain were recognized as the hereditary door-keepers of the Kings of Connaught and as the chief commanders of the Cavalry of Hy-Many. O'Donovan also tells us that the High King of Ireland "gives a subsidy to the chiefs of Hy-Fiachrach Finn more than [or in preference to] the king of Hy-Many. http://www.nortonfamily.net/norton-irish.htm"

However, since I tested into m222 > df105/109 > R-FGC23742 > A1206* - it looks like I am closer to Ui Fiachrach Aidne in some cases than Ui Maine (atleast judging by what today is called the 'Hy Maine Modal' which is m222-).
Although reading some of Brad Larkin's research, he seems to believe that Maine Mor existed - and settled the Ui Maine area with a mix of m222 and non-m222 peoples. SO I guess this doesn't preclude me entirely from being apart of this group?
https://www.surnamedna.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/DNA-vs-Irish-Annals-2014.pdf

Maybe Neachtain were part of the original group, but were eventually superceded by the non-m222 group? I hear a similar thing happen with the Ui Neill, where early on they were all m222+ but then something happen, an NPE or something, and then the m222- O'Neill Variety Haplotype came to be the ruling group of the Ui Neill.

Another point - I keep coming across this other name for the Ui Fiachrach Fionn, the "Conmhaícne Mheáin Maigh"
Which is interesting, since I have read over and over again that Ui Fiachrach Fionn were 'chiefs of the Maonmagh'. So, which came first? Members of this Conmhaicne group, and then absorbed in Ui Maine? how could I be Ui Maine and also conmhaicne? Or am I misunderstanding this?

Some more random thoughts/observations:
1) I would expect O'Mulally descendants to be right next to O'Neachtain - since we are supposed to be from the same stock 'Ui Fiachrach Finn'. So far I do not see this. Word is that Mullaly moved to France and died out there, but I hardly believe that ALL descendants of this branch died out. Some should be popping up in the tree at some point...
2) I would expect O'Kelly to be very near O'Neachtain since they are also Ui Maine, and of the half dozen names attributed to being Hy-Maine - we are both one of them. But so far its not looking that way?
3) A couple steps above where my YDNA landed, in R-FGC23742, I see names like Morrow, Flannagan, Toal, Dowd (and of course ,the swedish names but those are tougher to loop in here). These looks like some scottish septs and Hy-Fiachra
4) A step above that, in df105, obviously there are a ton of people, I see a lot of O'Malley, Loughney, Frew, Molloy, Dougherty/Doherty, Ewing, Robertson, and many more. Combination of Scottish septs, Hy-Fiachra, Hy-Niall and other.

I don't know what to make of this. Legend says I should be in one spot, but it doesn't seem so. Anyone with more understanding of all this able to help me make sense of this?

FionnSneachta
10-24-2021, 07:37 PM
I'm "supposed" to be Ui Fiachrach Finn, a direct descendant of Maine Mor, and then legend says also of Colla Chrioch. Not only that, but in fact - O'Neachtain is supposed to be the most senior of all the tribes of Ui Maine since Fiachrach Fionn was the most senior of the sons of Breasal, son of Maine Mor. We got superceded by the O'Kelly's as the ruling line, but retained many privileges

A tanistry system was used in Garlic Ireland whereby the heir apparent to a Celtic chief, typically the most vigorous adult of his kin, was elected during the chief's lifetime. It wasn't automatically the eldest son who became chief. For example William Buí O'Kelly, who was chief in the 1300s, was the youngest and seventh son.

Nort
10-24-2021, 08:24 PM
Hi there,
I hear your point that physical fitness and ability are important factors in passing on chieftain - and not just 'seniority', but I think you misunderstood a bit what I was saying.

According to tale, Fiachrach Finn WAS Chief. He was the 3rd Chief of Ui Maine, after Breasal and Maine. Fiachrach did not get passed over. He was chief for 17 years before he was killed by his brother Maine Mall.

Then, afterwards 2 of Fiachrach's younger brothers served as Chief - Connall for 22 years, and then Dallan for 11 years. That is when the heir-apparent shift happened. After this, Dallan's sons reigned.
Source: Tribes and Customs of Hy-Many (https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Tribes_and_Customs_of_Hy_Many_Common/oaxjAAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=RA1-PA14) (sorry hotlinking right to the page didnt work out)

FionnSneachta
10-24-2021, 11:22 PM
Hi there,
I hear your point that physical fitness and ability are important factors in passing on chieftain - and not just 'seniority', but I think you misunderstood a bit what I was saying.

According to tale, Fiachrach Finn WAS Chief. He was the 3rd Chief of Ui Maine, after Breasal and Maine. Fiachrach did not get passed over. He was chief for 17 years before he was killed by his brother Maine Mall.

Then, afterwards 2 of Fiachrach's younger brothers served as Chief - Connall for 22 years, and then Dallan for 11 years. That is when the heir-apparent shift happened. After this, Dallan's sons reigned.
Source: Tribes and Customs of Hy-Many (https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Tribes_and_Customs_of_Hy_Many_Common/oaxjAAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=RA1-PA14) (sorry hotlinking right to the page didnt work out)

I just thought that it sounded a bit misleading to say that, "Not only that, but in fact - O'Neachtain is supposed to be the most senior of all the tribes of Ui Maine since Fiachrach Fionn was the most senior of the sons of Breasal, son of Maine Mor" since it's never a given in a tanistry system that the chiefs are going to stay in one line.

There was a lot of jumping around between the chiefs. Just looking at the chiefs from Tadhg Mór O'Kelly who died in 1014 to Aedh who died in 1467, you see chiefs jumping to as much as 9th cousins twice removed.

Tadhg Mór O'Kelly d. 1014 - Gadhra (9th cousin once removed) - Concobar O'Kelly d. 1030 (9th cousin twice removed) - Diarmaid O'Kelly d. 1065 (brother) - Donnchadh O'Kelly d. 1074 (great nephew) - Aedh O'Kelly (?) - Diarmaid O'Madden d. 1135 (13th cousin of Donnchadh) - Tadhg O'Kelly abd. 1145 (13th cousin 2x removed) - Conchobar Moenmoy d. 1180 (4th cousin) - Murchadh O'Kelly d. 1186 (4th cousin once removed) - Domhnall Mór O'Kelly d. 1221 (5th cousin once removed) - Conchobar Mór O'Kelly d. 1268 (son) - Maine Mór O'Kelly d. 1271 (son) - Domhnall O'Kelly d. 1295 (brother) - Donnchadh Muimhneach O'Kelly d. 1307 (brother) - Gilbert O'Kelly d. 1322 (nephew) - Tadhg O'Kelly d. 1316 (brother) - Conchobar O'Kelly d. 1318 (brother) - Gilbert O'Kelly d. 1322 2nd reign (brother) - Aedh O'Kelly (?) - Ruaidri O'Kelly d. 1339 (2nd cousin in Gilbert) - Tadhg Óg O'Kelly d. 1340 (great grandson) - Diarmaid O'Kelly (2nd cousin 3x removed) - William Buí O'Kelly (1st cousin once removed) - Mealseachlainn O'Kelly d. 1401 (son) - Conchobhar Anabaidh d. 1403 (son) - Tadhg O'Kelly d. 1410 (brother) - Donnchadh O'Kelly d. 1424 (brother) - Aedh O'Kelly d. 1467 (nephew)

Nort
10-25-2021, 12:02 AM
I think that with the current available written record, i.e. looking at 'Tribes and Customs of Hy-Many' (on pg 72, which itself cites 3 sources for the Ui Fiachrach Finn claim including the Book of Lecan), it is fair to say that O'Neachtain is 'supposed' to be the most senior of all the tribes of Ui Maine since they come from the elder son of Breasal. I don't think that is controversial, I've seen this in multiple writings. I have also seen one that I believe was a mess-up, where O'Hart claimed Fiachrach was a son of Dallan. But other than that, things seem consistent on this point in the official pedigree.

That said, I totally hear your point though that there was alot of jumping around. I don't take this personally, I'm trying to learn about history - and hopefully eventually more about my ancestors themselves, and I didn't mean to imply anything nefarious. I apologize if my wording was clumsy.

That list of Chief's and their relation is interesting indeed. Thank you for sharing. I didn't realize how drastic some of the jumps were.

FionnSneachta
10-25-2021, 12:08 PM
There's no offence and I don't take it personallly. However, I don't see anything on page 72 on the Tribes and Customs of Hy-Many to say that they're 'supposed' to be the most senior of all the tribes other than just saying that Fiachra Finn was a son of Breasal. As I've said, age isn't a factor in determing what branch is the most senior. It's not like in other monarchies such as England where it's always the eldest son unless there's a usurper. Therefore, being the eldest son of Breasal doesn't mean that the O'Neachtains were ever 'supposed' to be the most senior of all the tribes since being the eldest was not a qualifier of seniority in a tanistry system in Gaelic society.

The O'Neachtain branch only had one chief of Hy Many (Fiachra Finn) and that line had no chiefs after that. Yes, Fiachra Finn was the senior in terms of age among the sons of Breasal but that doesn't necessarily mean this his descendants were ever 'supposed' to be the most senior of all the tribes since it's not something that's pre-determined by birth order. To say that they were 'supposed' to be the most senior of all the tribes is to ignore how that tanistry system worked in Ireland.

During Fiachra Finn's lifetime, it was decided that his brother Connall would become the next chief once he died and no chief was ever selected among Fiachra Finn's descendants after that. The terms Taoiseach and Tánaiste are still used in Ireland today to refer to the prime minister and deputy prime minister. During Fiachra Finn's lifetime, he was the Taoiseach (chief) while Connall was the Tánaiste (heir-apparent or second-in-command).

Nort
10-25-2021, 01:49 PM
I'm not saying "it was and forever is the chiefly line", I'm saying it's the 'senior line'. It's the elder line of the family stemming from Breasal. Regardless of chief. Senior meaning oldest.