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Polska
10-22-2021, 08:51 PM
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.30.454498v1.full.pdf

It’s old news by now, but it’s worth posting here for informational purposes that L283 Illyrian remains were found amongst the Daunian people in Italy. See link above. Also, there is a Polish individual from southeastern Poland who matches these Illyrian Daunians more closely than any living sample on the YFull YTree.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS8364/

Bruzmi
10-23-2021, 01:03 AM
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.30.454498v1.full.pdf

It’s old news by now, but it’s worth posting here for informational purposes that L283 Illyrian remains were found amongst the Daunian people in Italy. See link above. Also, there is a Polish individual from southeastern Poland who matches these Illyrian Daunians more closely than any living sample on the YFull YTree.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS8364/

Good post! Maybe a full J-L283 thread should be started.

Do you have any more information about this individual?

Is he more likely to be an old J-L283 which reached Poland during the IE migrations or from Pannonia in pre-Roman antiquity? Or is he more related to the Vlach migrations of the Early Middle Ages?

Bruzmi
10-23-2021, 01:04 AM
J-L283 higher diversity areas according to phylogeographer's diversity heatmap
https://i.ibb.co/Dgvph5D/JL283diversity.png

Polska
10-23-2021, 05:22 AM
Good post! Maybe a full J-L283 thread should be started.

Do you have any more information about this individual?

Is he more likely to be an old J-L283 which reached Poland during the IE migrations or from Pannonia in pre-Roman antiquity? Or is he more related to the Vlach migrations of the Early Middle Ages?

I have corresponded with him on the L283 Facebook page. He did a WGS test with analysis from YFull and just a few weeks later this Daunian paper with the L283s was released. Talk about good timing. He believes his family has been in Poland for some time, but he’s trying to learn more about his deep ancestry. This CTS8364 branch looks to be too young to be connected to an initial IE migration. I’m guessing it’s a western Balkan branch since it’s under Z597. He could descend from a remnant population left behind in the Balkans or indirectly from Daunia or Balkans via a Roman mediated migration. I’m not sure if his branch is connected with Vlachs or not. Definitely a possibility.

ShpataEMadhe
10-25-2021, 04:11 PM
Daunians were mixed - it is not easy to assume the J-L283 found among them to be illyrian or native, according to the study they are leaning more towards being native

We need y dna from 500bc or so western balkans to get closer confirmation of J-L283 being an illyrian line

Riverman
10-25-2021, 04:35 PM
I have corresponded with him on the L283 Facebook page. He did a WGS test with analysis from YFull and just a few weeks later this Daunian paper with the L283s was released. Talk about good timing. He believes his family has been in Poland for some time, but he’s trying to learn more about his deep ancestry. This CTS8364 branch looks to be too young to be connected to an initial IE migration. I’m guessing it’s a western Balkan branch since it’s under Z597. He could descend from a remnant population left behind in the Balkans or indirectly from Daunia or Balkans via a Roman mediated migration. I’m not sure if his branch is connected with Vlachs or not. Definitely a possibility.

BR2 was J-M92 and he came from a cultural context which was fairly close to Poland, centered in Slovakia-Northern Hungary. Whether he was fully of Kyjatice descent or not, since they mostly cremated, that's the context he was assigned to:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3821-Albanian-DNA-Project&p=810826&viewfull=1#post810826

Close by to the South East, also with relations to Poland, was Gáva which is likely to have had E-V13 also, in its paternal variation. I guess not too many would have expected J-M92 that far North and with a Central European profile to have existed, even if it was a minority lineage and probably spread more recently (at that time) from the Aegean. A lot of things are therefore possible, since Lengyel moved up there too early on.

In any case J-L283 looks like a good candidate for an early Illyrian lineage, but its exact path is still unknown - could have been with Yamnaya or picked up by Yamnaya groups along the Danube.

Principe
10-25-2021, 05:54 PM
BR2 was J-M92 and he came from a cultural context which was fairly close to Poland, centered in Slovakia-Northern Hungary. Whether he was fully of Kyjatice descent or not, since they mostly cremated, that's the context he was assigned to:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3821-Albanian-DNA-Project&p=810826&viewfull=1#post810826

Close by to the South East, also with relations to Poland, was Gáva which is likely to have had E-V13 also, in its paternal variation. I guess not too many would have expected J-M92 that far North and with a Central European profile to have existed, even if it was a minority lineage and probably spread more recently (at that time) from the Aegean. A lot of things are therefore possible, since Lengyel moved up there too early on.

In any case J-L283 looks like a good candidate for an early Illyrian lineage, but its exact path is still unknown - could have been with Yamnaya or picked up by Yamnaya groups along the Danube.

BR2 belongs to https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y17946/, which is under Z7671, J-Y17946 has also been found in EBA Arslantepe.

Pribislav
10-25-2021, 06:12 PM
BR2 belongs to https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y17946/, which is under Z7671, J-Y17946 has also been found in EBA Arslantepe.

And in MBA Alalakh:

ALA120; 1800-1500 BC; Alalakh; Turkey; Alalakh_MLBA; J2a1a1a2b2a-M67>Z1847>Z7671>CTS900>Z7661>Y3020>Y11200>Z30677>Z30682>Y17946 (xY129013,FGC62187)

rafc
10-25-2021, 07:09 PM
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.30.454498v1.full.pdf

It’s old news by now, but it’s worth posting here for informational purposes that L283 Illyrian remains were found amongst the Daunian people in Italy. See link above. Also, there is a Polish individual from southeastern Poland who matches these Illyrian Daunians more closely than any living sample on the YFull YTree.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS8364/

Are you sure? I seem to remember he was closest to the British 1K genomes sample.

Principe
10-25-2021, 09:51 PM
And in MBA Alalakh:

ALA120; 1800-1500 BC; Alalakh; Turkey; Alalakh_MLBA; J2a1a1a2b2a-M67>Z1847>Z7671>CTS900>Z7661>Y3020>Y11200>Z30677>Z30682>Y17946 (xY129013,FGC62187)

Are these from the newer Alalakh samples?

ShpataEMadhe
10-26-2021, 07:12 PM
BR2 belongs to https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y17946/, which is under Z7671, J-Y17946 has also been found in EBA Arslantepe.

So Hittite carried j2a, but what business does this line have being in places like portugal and england - definitely spread by the romans later on it seems

Lack of it in spain is strange though, romans also had a similar impact in spain. Maybe another possibilty is through urnfield which apparently had influence all the way to portugal -

"Horizon of Santa Vitória (c. 1100-700 BCE): that reaches the early Iron Age. Imitations of early Urnfield rilled-ware vessels are found in Late Bronze Age burials in southern Portugal, for example, lovely funerary pottery urns at Santa Vitória in Beja Municipality.[3] The nearest parallels to these pottery designs are found in west-central France.[3] In particular, there is evidence of contact exposure to the Bronze D (Bz D) rilled-ware province of the Paris basin and the north-west Alpine foreland, and to a lesser extent also to the Rhine-Swiss-French (RSF) group of Hallstatt A (Ha A).[3] Early radiocarbon dates for the first Celts in the southwest of the Iberian peninsula of around 800 BC at Segovia just north of Elvas in Portugal to the north-north-east of Beja and of around 700 BC at Faro to the south, but within this cultural area, support this association.[4] Approximately 130 Late Bronze Age (LBA) 'warrior' stelae ranging from c. 1300 to c. 800 BC[2] are found in the South-West of the Iberian peninsula.[1] Early Western Urnfield Group C1 crested helmets are depicted on some of these LBA stelae, for example at Valencia de Alcantara and Santa Ana de Trujillo.[3] There are examples of stones with both images of human figures and elements of the warrior panoply (shields, spears, swords, helmets, chariots, brooches, mirrors, combs, lyres, etc.) together with Southwestern (SW) writing in the Tartessian language.[1] The warrior stelae of Capote with inscription J.54.1 and Cabeza del Buey IV with inscription Majada Honda, J.110 are examples of stelae with such writing."

Principe
10-26-2021, 07:43 PM
So Hittite carried j2a, but what business does this line have being in places like portugal and england - definitely spread by the romans later on it seems

Lack of it in spain is strange though, romans also had a similar impact in spain. Maybe another possibilty is through urnfield which apparently had influence all the way to portugal -

"Horizon of Santa Vitória (c. 1100-700 BCE): that reaches the early Iron Age. Imitations of early Urnfield rilled-ware vessels are found in Late Bronze Age burials in southern Portugal, for example, lovely funerary pottery urns at Santa Vitória in Beja Municipality.[3] The nearest parallels to these pottery designs are found in west-central France.[3] In particular, there is evidence of contact exposure to the Bronze D (Bz D) rilled-ware province of the Paris basin and the north-west Alpine foreland, and to a lesser extent also to the Rhine-Swiss-French (RSF) group of Hallstatt A (Ha A).[3] Early radiocarbon dates for the first Celts in the southwest of the Iberian peninsula of around 800 BC at Segovia just north of Elvas in Portugal to the north-north-east of Beja and of around 700 BC at Faro to the south, but within this cultural area, support this association.[4] Approximately 130 Late Bronze Age (LBA) 'warrior' stelae ranging from c. 1300 to c. 800 BC[2] are found in the South-West of the Iberian peninsula.[1] Early Western Urnfield Group C1 crested helmets are depicted on some of these LBA stelae, for example at Valencia de Alcantara and Santa Ana de Trujillo.[3] There are examples of stones with both images of human figures and elements of the warrior panoply (shields, spears, swords, helmets, chariots, brooches, mirrors, combs, lyres, etc.) together with Southwestern (SW) writing in the Tartessian language.[1] The warrior stelae of Capote with inscription J.54.1 and Cabeza del Buey IV with inscription Majada Honda, J.110 are examples of stelae with such writing."

Odds are we just haven't seen it yet in Spain, I am sure it will pop out eventually.

vettor
10-26-2021, 08:07 PM
Daunians were mixed - it is not easy to assume the J-L283 found among them to be illyrian or native, according to the study they are leaning more towards being native

We need y dna from 500bc or so western balkans to get closer confirmation of J-L283 being an illyrian line

mixed with Dalmatians and Liburnians ..................maybe even Pannonians to a lesser degree

Pribislav
10-27-2021, 03:10 PM
Are these from the newer Alalakh samples?

Yes, from Ingman 2021 (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/comments?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0241883).

ShpataEMadhe
10-27-2021, 09:54 PM
mixed with Dalmatians and Liburnians ..................maybe even Pannonians to a lesser degree

And with ancient greeks from crete, according to legends

vettor
10-28-2021, 12:13 AM
And with ancient greeks from crete, according to legends

who? ..........was with crete?

Myceaneans took Crete and where trading as far north of the adriatic sea with Liburnians and histrians.


Dalmatians came south from modern south slovenia early iron age IIRC

Liburnians had a very big region circa 1150BC ( it included dalmatia ) ....................they traded with carthage circa 750BC ( carthage first settled near tunis around 812BC ) .........Liburnians settled with 3 colonies in Italy ( picene lands ) ...they had also control of Corfu from 980BC until the corinthians greeks took the island from them around 700BC

ShpataEMadhe
10-28-2021, 09:16 AM
who? ..........was with crete?

Myceaneans took Crete and where trading as far north of the adriatic sea with Liburnians and histrians.


Dalmatians came south from modern south slovenia early iron age IIRC

Liburnians had a very big region circa 1150BC ( it included dalmatia ) ....................they traded with carthage circa 750BC ( carthage first settled near tunis around 812BC ) .........Liburnians settled with 3 colonies in Italy ( picene lands ) ...they had also control of Corfu from 980BC until the corinthians greeks took the island from them around 700BC

"However, in Daunian territory Oscan language was spoken as well, as evidenced by the legends of locally-minted coins. The Daunians lived in the Daunia region, which extended from the Daunian Mountains river in the southeast to the Gargano peninsula in the northwest.This region is mostly coincident with the Province of Foggia and part of Province of Barletta-Andria-Trani today. Towards the late Bronze Age (11th-10th centuries BC), Illyrian populations from the eastern Adriatic arrived in Apulia. The Illyrians in Italy, united with the pre-existing people and groups from the Aegean, probably from Crete, created the Iapygian civilization which consisted of three tribes: the Peucetians, Messapians and Daunians. The region was previously inhabited by Italic peoples of Southern Italy; among them are the Ausones/Oscans, Sabines, Lucani, Paeligni, Bruttii, Campanians, Aequi, Samnites and Frentani. The Daunii were similar to but also different from the Peucetii and Messapii, who settled in central and southern Puglia. Having been also less influenced by the Campanian civilization, it had thus a more peculiar culture, featuring in particular the Daunian steles, a series of funerary monuments sculpted in the 7th-6th centuries BC in the plain south of Siponto, and now mostly housed in the National Archeological Museum of Manfredonia."

Also, "on Daunian steles often appeared fantastic animals (pegasi, chimeras and sea serpents, among others)"