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Polska
11-05-2021, 10:03 PM
Another ancient L283 from the western Balkans has popped up, this time from south central Slovenia near the border with Croatia. This sample dates back to the Iron Age, to sometime between about 800-500BC. Like the other ancient (MBA) L283 Illyrian seen here: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z38240/, this most recent sample was a tumulus burial. I suspect it probably came from the following study (see page 115):

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/40333994_Spatial_analysis_of_funerary_areas


According to user Pribislav:
I5691; 787-544 BC; Kapiteljska njive, Novo mesto; Slovenia_IA; J2b2a1a1a-L283>Z622>Z600>Z2509>Z585>Z615>Z597 (xZ2507,FGC64029)


Comment from user Trojet:
Very interesting, J-L283>Z597* in IA Slovenia!

EDIT: Not necessarily J-Z597*, as Y146400 status is unknown. I'll have a look at these J-L283 BAM files one of these days..

Google Map Novo Mesto:
Novo mesto
8000 Novo mesto, Slovenia
https://goo.gl/maps/6k7FzVYVJYBzKj2d9

Most importantly, it appears there is a McDonalds in Novo Mesto. This could be a sign of early Celtic influence in the region.

ShpataEMadhe
11-05-2021, 10:55 PM
Nice but what is the connection between tumulus and illyrians? As far as im aware tumulus culture was succeeded by urnfield and related to hallstatt?

"Hallstatt A–B (1200–800 BC) are part of the Bronze Age Urnfield culture. In this period, people were cremated and buried in simple graves. In phase B, tumulus (barrow or kurgan) burial becomes common, and cremation predominates. The "Hallstatt period" proper is restricted to HaC and HaD (800–450 BC), corresponding to the early European Iron Age."

Something else on the Tumulus culture -

"The culture's dispersed settlements centred in fortified structures. Some scholars see Tumulus groups from southern Germany in this context as corresponding to a community that shared an extinct Indo-European linguistic entity, such as the hypothetical Italo-Celtic group that was ancestral to Italic and Celtic."

47343

Kelmendasi
11-05-2021, 11:59 PM
Nice but what is the connection between tumulus and illyrians? As far as im aware tumulus culture was succeeded by urnfield and related to hallstatt?

"Hallstatt A–B (1200–800 BC) are part of the Bronze Age Urnfield culture. In this period, people were cremated and buried in simple graves. In phase B, tumulus (barrow or kurgan) burial becomes common, and cremation predominates. The "Hallstatt period" proper is restricted to HaC and HaD (800–450 BC), corresponding to the early European Iron Age."

Something else on the Tumulus culture -

"The culture's dispersed settlements centred in fortified structures. Some scholars see Tumulus groups from southern Germany in this context as corresponding to a community that shared an extinct Indo-European linguistic entity, such as the hypothetical Italo-Celtic group that was ancestral to Italic and Celtic."

47343
Tumuli burials (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumulus) were a feature of numerous Indo-European cultures and were widespread even in the Balkans. For example the Illyrian Glasinac-Mati (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasinac-Mati_culture) culture is noted for its extensive use of tumuli as a method of inhumation.

ShpataEMadhe
11-06-2021, 12:26 AM
Tumuli burials (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumulus) were a feature of numerous Indo-European cultures and were widespread even in the Balkans. For example the Illyrian Glasinac-Mati (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasinac-Mati_culture) culture is noted for its extensive use of tumuli as a method of inhumation.

With that do we suggest the illyrians were direct descendents of hallstatt or just strongly influenced by it?

Hallstatt was mostly a celtic culture but there is a lack of celtic y dna found in balkans today. What are the chances that j2b l283 was actually a southern celtic line which then moved to italy?

We need to get ancient dna from the bosnia/montenegro/albania region to confirm what illyrians carried as that was the illyrians proper, slovenia was too far north

Kelmendasi
11-06-2021, 12:33 AM
Hallstatt was mostly a celtic culture but there is a lack of celtic y dna found in balkans today. What are the chances that j2b l283 was actually a southern celtic line which then moved to italy?

We need to get ancient dna from the bosnia/montenegro region to confirm what illyrians carried as that was the illyrians proper, slovenia was too far north
The issue is that J2b-L283 clusters (possibly apart from Z631 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z631/)) do not show much frequency or diversity in regions that are presently inhabited by Celtic-speakers or even historically for that matter. It should also be mentioned that numerous samples from the Celtic world have been obtained and L283 is - to my knowledge - not among them.

I would also include Albania within the core Illyrian territories, more so than Bosnia and Herzegovina in fact though that depends on definition of Illyrian. There is also of course the alleged J2b sample from northern Albania however that is yet to be published or confirmed.

Riverman
11-06-2021, 01:20 AM
Tumuli burials (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumulus) were a feature of numerous Indo-European cultures and were widespread even in the Balkans. For example the Illyrian Glasinac-Mati (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasinac-Mati_culture) culture is noted for its extensive use of tumuli as a method of inhumation.

The Middle Danubian Tumulus culture influenced the whole Western Balkan and reached, in a mixed Form, down to Albania.
The division came later, in the Urnfield period, when much of Illyrian proper were sticking to inhumation, whereas the Northern groups eith fresh North Western inputs formed Middle Danubian Urnfield. This is the main difference between Pannonians and the Illyrian proper imho.
Tumulus culture and Urnfield were both multi-ethnic.

The substrate was Mokrin related Yamnaya-Neolithic, and that's most likely from which J-L283 and Yamnaya R1b csme from in the Illyrian proper, whereas the newer Tumulus and Urnfield elements from the Alpine-Danubian zone Was more Bell Beaker derived.

vettor
11-06-2021, 02:09 AM
Another ancient L283 from the western Balkans has popped up, this time from south central Slovenia near the border with Croatia. This sample dates back to the Iron Age, to sometime between about 800-500BC. Like the other ancient (MBA) L283 Illyrian seen here: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z38240/, this most recent sample was a tumulus burial. I suspect it probably came from the following study (see page 115):

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/40333994_Spatial_analysis_of_funerary_areas


According to user Pribislav:
I5691; 787-544 BC; Kapiteljska njive, Novo mesto; Slovenia_IA; J2b2a1a1a-L283>Z622>Z600>Z2509>Z585>Z615>Z597 (xZ2507,FGC64029)


Comment from user Trojet:
Very interesting, J-L283>Z597* in IA Slovenia!

EDIT: Not necessarily J-Z597*, as Y146400 status is unknown. I'll have a look at these J-L283 BAM files one of these days..

Google Map Novo Mesto:
Novo mesto
8000 Novo mesto, Slovenia
https://goo.gl/maps/6k7FzVYVJYBzKj2d9

Most importantly, it appears there is a McDonalds in Novo Mesto. This could be a sign of early Celtic influence in the region.


old papers ( historians ) stated that the dalmatians moved from that area ( south slovenia ) into present day dalmatia ( south croatia ) circa 600BC ...............the date is erred , but the origin of the people is not .....................with this , is it related to the other L283 in Dalmatia ?

vettor
11-06-2021, 02:12 AM
With that do we suggest the illyrians were direct descendents of hallstatt or just strongly influenced by it?

Hallstatt was mostly a celtic culture but there is a lack of celtic y dna found in balkans today. What are the chances that j2b l283 was actually a southern celtic line which then moved to italy?

We need to get ancient dna from the bosnia/montenegro/albania region to confirm what illyrians carried as that was the illyrians proper, slovenia was too far north

of course the illyrians mixed with celts to form Halstatt circa 1000BC ( phase one ) ..............most people like to concentrate on Phase 2 Halstatt , circa 800BC

The nori was the illyrian tribe......diggers of Noric steel ...............they became celtinized and where known later as the Norici


...........................

liguistic scholars ( not that I believe language has anything to do with DNA ) ..........state that the Italic-celtic-illyric language from east of austria .............the illyric branch broke off first

https://i.postimg.cc/Njh3cb4D/balkans-2400-bc.png (https://postimages.org/)

Pribislav
11-06-2021, 02:58 AM
I can't say I expected this, but huge discovery nevertheless. We still don't know for sure from when and where are these two samples, but judging by these results my bet would be Hallstatt & Slovenia (or somewhere very near Slovenia). Y86930 TMRCA is ~800 BC!



I23911; J2b2a1a1a1b-Y15058>Z38240>Z38241>PH1602>Y86930>FT115799 (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/J;name=J-FT115799)


Y15058 level: Y15058/Z34462+ C>G (3G)

Z38240 level: FT92472+ A>T (5T); Z38240- C>T (4C)

Z38241 level: *no calls*

PH1602 level: *no calls*

Y86930 level: Y86930+ C>T (4T)

FT115799 level: FT115799+ C>A (1A)



I24638; J2b2a1a1a1b-Y15058>Z38240>Z38241>PH1602>Y86930>FT115799 (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/J;name=J-FT115799)


Y15058 level: Y15058/Z34462+ C>G (5G); CTS9215+ C>T (4T-2C)

Z38240 level: FT92472+ A>T (7T); Z38240- C>T (2C)

Z38241 level: Z38241+ T>C (5C)

PH1602 level: *no calls*

Y86930 level: Y86930+ C>T (5T)

FT115799 level: FT115799+ C>A (1A)



I24882; J2b2a1a1a1b-Y15058>Z38240>Z38241>PH1602>Y86930 (xFT115799) (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y86930/)


Y15058 level: Y15058/Z34462+ C>G (7G); CTS9215+ C>T (2T)

Z38240 level: FT92472+ A>T (9T); Z38240- C>T (5C)

Z38241 level: Z38241+ T>C (4C)

PH1602 level: *no calls*

Y86930 level: Y86930+ C>T (9T)

FT115799 level: FT115799- C>A (1C)

Vognejar
11-06-2021, 06:33 AM
Most of the Etruscans were R1b (75%) and our Etruscans were in the minority, this is understandable. But one must take into account the fact that during the period of imperial Rome, J2 accounted for about 20% of the population (there was a massive resettlement to Italy). Can we connect this with the Etruscans? Not sure. It seems that the Etruscans were of local Italian-Celtic origin. And it seems that much indicates that the peoples of the sea are from the northwestern Balkans. And there, we can see the Illyrians. But what concerns the Thracians cannot be discarded. The peoples of the sea ("mushki", Phrygians - probably Thracian tribes close to each other) ousted the indigenous peoples (Hatto-Hittites) on the territory of Turkey. So, our Etruscan snip seems to say that the peoples of the sea attacked from one side, from Europe (Italy-north-western Balkans-Thrace-Turkey), but on the other side the Hatto-Hittites had J2 dominance.

In connection with the above, I have a question, maybe these Thracians did not attack, but returned their lands? How else to explain J2 from the side of the attacking Sea Peoples and from the side of the defenders. I am curious about the opinion of experts on this topic.

P.S .: all this suggests that the "mushki" tribe, on the site of modern Turkey (where they invaded), later received the name "enets" and moved back to the northwestern Balkans, becoming "Adriatic venetes" and "friendly to the ancient Romans". That is, we are talking about migrations to the Italo-Celts and back. And perhaps this happened more than once. At least "venetes" - "venedes" sounds tempting to explain the early J2b Slavs in the Czech Republic, Poland and Ukraine.

XXD
11-06-2021, 07:02 AM
Incredible discovery! In a way it is expected - the Illyrians seem to have been very diverse in J2b.

Where is all the E-V13 that so many expected? We now have what, more than 10 Illyrian samples? Or more? And all have been G, J2b, R1b and I-M223.

XXD
11-06-2021, 07:54 AM
Anyone played with its G25 yet?

Kelmendasi
11-06-2021, 12:52 PM
Incredible discovery! In a way it is expected - the Illyrians seem to have been very diverse in J2b.

Where is all the E-V13 that so many expected? We now have what, more than 10 Illyrian samples? Or more? And all have been G, J2b, R1b and I-M223.
I am not aware of any G Illyrian samples or such a large sample size. Are you referring to those from Bronze Age eastern Croatia? To my knowledge those cannot be called Illyrian.

Trojet
11-06-2021, 12:58 PM
I am not aware of any G Illyrian samples or such a large sample size. Are you referring to those from Bronze Age eastern Croatia? To my knowledge those cannot be called Illyrian.

That's right. IMHO, the available G2 samples that user Vettor/Torzio keeps bringing up cannot be considered as Illyrian or Proto-Illyrian, since some of them come from the Neolithic and the BA samples are from the eastern edge of Croatia, which also have no known connections to the formation of any Illyrian cultures.

In regards to I2a-M223, IMO, we need to see if we get any from the western Balkans to know for certain, as the ones in ancient Apulia may be local to the Italian peninsula. Having said that, I think we'll likely get some ancient I2a-M223 from the western Balkans as well.

Kelmendasi
11-06-2021, 01:06 PM
That's right. IMHO, the available G2 samples that user Vettor/Torzio keeps bringing up cannot be considered as Illyrian or Proto-Illyrian, since some of them come from the Neolithic and the BA samples are from the eastern edge of Croatia, which also have no known connections to the formation of any Illyrian cultures.

In regards to I2a-M223, we need to see if we get any from the western Balkans to know for certain, as the ones in ancient Apulia may be local to the Italian peninsula. Having said that, I think we'll likely get some ancient I2a-M223 from the western Balkans as well.
Indeed from what I see most belonged to cultures that are simply continuations of older Neolithic groups such as the Sopot culture and a southern variation of the Transdanubian Encrusted Pottery culture. These did not directly contribute to the Illyrians. The only Middle Bronze Age sample that we know belonged to a culture that directly contributed to the formation of the Illyrians is J2b-Z38240 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z38240/) I4331 likely from the Posušje culture.

Riverman
11-06-2021, 01:10 PM
Indeed from what I see most belonged to cultures that are simply continuations of older Neolithic groups such as the Sopot culture and a southern variation of the Transdanubian Encrusted Pottery culture. These did not directly contribute to the Illyrians. The only Middle Bronze Age sample that we know belonged to a culture that directly contributed to the formation of the Illyrians is J2b-Z38240 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z38240/) I4331 likely from the Posušje culture.

I think the connection of J2 with Yamnaya R1b both in Mokrin and modern Albanians is interesting. The most interesting part is how they managed to stay on top in the Danubian-Alpine influenced Tumulus Culture and how they survived the new wave with the Urnfield formation of the Middle Danube. Seems to have been similar to E-V13, that they being early incorporated, participated and came out on top.

Kelmendasi
11-06-2021, 01:37 PM
of course the illyrians mixed with celts to form Halstatt circa 1000BC ( phase one ) ..............most people like to concentrate on Phase 2 Halstatt , circa 800BC

The nori was the illyrian tribe......diggers of Noric steel ...............they became celtinized and where known later as the Norici


...........................

liguistic scholars ( not that I believe language has anything to do with DNA ) ..........state that the Italic-celtic-illyric language from east of austria .............the illyric branch broke off first

https://i.postimg.cc/Njh3cb4D/balkans-2400-bc.png (https://postimages.org/)
We have discussed this multiple times and as I have presented before the historiography makes it very clear that the area of what would become Noricum was rather continuously Celtic. There is no indication that the Illyrians occupied this region prior. From what I recall the sources you use all discuss later movements of Illyrians into the area.

This map is not the actual work of linguists, it is also very nonsensical.

ShpataEMadhe
11-06-2021, 08:08 PM
Incredible discovery! In a way it is expected - the Illyrians seem to have been very diverse in J2b.

Where is all the E-V13 that so many expected? We now have what, more than 10 Illyrian samples? Or more? And all have been G, J2b, R1b and I-M223.

For me until we find ancient samples from bosnia/montenegro/albania in the period of 800bc-300bc we cant confirm anything yet in regards to illyrians

Slovenia is too far north, it was a celtic region at this period

Just out of interest what was the r1b line and where was it found?

vasil
11-06-2021, 09:07 PM
That's right. IMHO, the available G2 samples that user Vettor/Torzio keeps bringing up cannot be considered as Illyrian or Proto-Illyrian, since some of them come from the Neolithic and the BA samples are from the eastern edge of Croatia, which also have no known connections to the formation of any Illyrian cultures.

In regards to I2a-M223, IMO, we need to see if we get any from the western Balkans to know for certain, as the ones in ancient Apulia may be local to the Italian peninsula. Having said that, I think we'll likely get some ancient I2a-M223 from the western Balkans as well.

There are two main flows of I2a into the Balkans, one is in the Mesolithic before the Anatolian Farmers arrived then they come in and decimate everything that was there before("peaceful farmers") and then there is the Cardium pottery("extremely peaceful farmers") related WHG resurgence so just before the IE groups arrival the Western Balkans and Pannonia were a patchwork of Balkan Farmers and I2a Farmers.

Archetype0ne
11-07-2021, 02:50 AM
Anyone played with its G25 yet?

I second this. Are the G25 coordinates, or any coordinates out for that matter?

XXD
11-07-2021, 06:42 AM
I am at work and didn't have time to analyse the samples, but from a first look, the Slovenia_IA samples plot like modern day Spaniards, French and Germans. While this is certainly coincidental, I think it definitely shows that the Slovenian samples were much more Western, Central European-like, and perhaps even Celtic, as the uniparental evidence suggests. So in agreement with what archaeologists and historians have long argued for. User ShpataeMadhe also correctly indicated that.

These groups interacted with Illyrians and Illyrian-like people like the Dalmatians and the Pannonians, so this could explain their J2b. So not sure that the majority of the Slovenian samples can be classified as Illyrian; they were at the fringes of Central Europe and the Balkan world, and it seems that the bulk of their ancestry came from the former. From a preliminary analysis, they score about 35% HRV_IA and early Bronze Age Hungarian (=Pannonian?) ancestry, which probably corresponds to an Illyrian-like component. As I said, this was just a preliminary model of mine, and someone will come up with a better one.

PS - I made a mistake about mentioning haplogroup G as Illyrian, thank you Kelmendasi for pointing that out. However, I suspect that a lot of the haplogroup G of modern-day West Balkaners probably do originate from the West-Balkan Neolithic, from populations absorbed by the incoming Indo-Europeans.

Polska
08-29-2022, 02:33 AM
For me until we find ancient samples from bosnia/montenegro/albania in the period of 800bc-300bc we cant confirm anything yet in regards to illyrians

Slovenia is too far north, it was a celtic region at this period

Just out of interest what was the r1b line and where was it found?

Bumping this gem of a post.