[Old but maybe gold] Some interesting pre-Colombian lineages

[Shulamite]

Hey, new to this forum so hoping it’s all good:

I found something very interesting…

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/213387444.pdf

There seems to be R-M269 there amongst other things? I’ll add more recent papers too to support this but I’ve found these to be the major lineages in an unknown recent migration wave to the Americas. Mostly associated with C-P39, Q-M3 and R-M269, tentatively related to the Dene-Caucasian hypothesis which there’s at least been a lot of speculation about.

Y DNA C-P39, Q-M3, R-M269, G-M285, perhaps (rarely) even E-M81 and seemingly some I-M170 and G-P15 lineages amongst others. It always struck me that this mtDNA X2 in the Americas, divergent as it is, seems a bit off and there’s X2e in Baikalia (my guess would be X2a would be to do with the C-P39 lineage). It looks like a Central Asian migration.

Any thoughts? I’m not saying magical seafaring R1b civilisation-builders like some think, historically they’ve mostly destroyed or usurped them, but you can’t write off all the West Eurasian haplogroups as being from foreign admixture.

[Megalophias]

...you can’t write off all the West Eurasian haplogroups as being from foreign admixture.
Sure you can.

[Shulamite]

Sure you can.

That’s not really in the spirit of things though, the Dene-Yeniseian hypothesis is accepted and the Steppe would have had plenty of West and East Eurasian lineages roaming about. Or I mean, it did. Even I-M170 is around Baikal.

[Shulamite]

Sure you can.

Did you check the paper? There’s other more recent ones I can dig up with the rest of those haplogroups.

[Shulamite]

Also I’m not sure why it’s E-M81 of all things but that’s what I saw, I’ll check YFull to see if there’s any branches straying towards Central Asia. It wasn’t E-V13.

EDIT: Perhaps there was a Canary Current migration, Thor Heyerdahl did it and the Polynesians were much more impressive. That wouldn’t appear to be related to the other lineages, and it does seem to be quite localised in the Americas, around the same area he ended up. The Phoenicians managed to sail around the coast of Africa from the Red Sea to the Mediterranean over 2.5kya, and you don’t see this lineage in the Southern Cone (only around the Gulf of Mexico). Why wouldn’t it be spread equally in Latino territory?

[Shulamite]

So I’d be advocating for two migrations here in that case, someone managed to get to the Canary Islands and it’s the same wind to drag you to the Americas. Currently the Guanches are held as Berbers before any later migrations affected the (Berber) gene pool. So at least four in total.

[Megalophias]

These are modern people, why would all their Y DNA be pre-Columbian?

[Shulamite]

These are modern people, why would all their Y DNA be pre-Columbian?

It wouldn’t but you can draw conclusions from more isolated peoples and other patterns. That’s what that one paper above did. Also the haplogroups would be more divergent in terms of STR etc and especially with high diversity.

[altvred]

That’s not really in the spirit of things though, the Dene-Yeniseian hypothesis is accepted and the Steppe would have had plenty of West and East Eurasian lineages roaming about. Or I mean, it did. Even I-M170 is around Baikal.

As far as I'm aware, there are zero instances of pre-Bronze-Age aDNA from Lake Baikal belonging to I1/I2.

So if by I-M170 'being around the Baikal' you're referring to the haplogroup being reported in low frequencies amongst indigenous Siberian populations, this has nothing to do with the initial settlement of the Americas.

That's either a result of the movement east of Steppe EMBA/MLBA groups (I2 was the second most common haplogroup after R1b in Yamanya) or the colonization of Siberia by Russians during the last 400 years.

Both happened long after Na-Dene speakers crossed the Bering Strait.

We also have aDNA from Pre-Columbian America, and from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego it's all Q1b.

[Shulamite]

Really to seal it, we need proper SNP testing to find unique mutations. Why hasn’t anybody done this? It would take literally one person to shake things up, Japanese labs are expensive but they do do this on request. A unique SNP would make any argument indefensible

[Shulamite]

As far as I'm aware, there are zero instances of pre-Bronze-Age aDNA from Lake Baikal belonging to I1/I2.

So if by I-M170 'being around the Baikal' you're referring to the haplogroup being reported in low frequencies amongst indigenous Siberian populations, this has nothing to do with the initial settlement of the Americas.

That's either a result of the movement east of Steppe EMBA/MLBA groups (I2 was the second most common haplogroup after R1b in Yamanya) or the colonization of Siberia by Russians during the last 400 years.

Both happened long after Na-Dene speakers crossed the Bering Strait.

We also have aDNA from Pre-Columbian America, and from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego it's all Q1b.

So what about the Y DNA C in Na-Dene speaking areas? That’s a clear-cut case. And regarding Y DNA I (most likely I2), considering I’m suggesting like this paper does that it’s associated with R-M269, it would be related a pre-Yamnaya (Repin?) offshoot to the Baikal area which is attested to too… there wasn’t I2 there afaik but the burial practices are heterogenous amongst the population strata. The presumably I2 in Baikal is not distinctly associated with a Russian migration either.

That M269 in Baikalia doesn’t look to be Tocharian.

[Shulamite]

Regarding that Y DNA C, it was a recent migration. Reich proposed it was related to Paleo-Eskimo migrations, it’s clearly Na-Dene though. There’s a lot of R1b there too, unspecified, but there’s an association. On the East coast in Ojibwe territory there’s a lot more R1b so I’d guess that excess would be down to colonial admixture

[Shulamite]

All that needs to happen is to test for unique SNPs, and finding just one is enough. Why hasn’t this been done? It’s ludicrous. If I could get someone’s DNA I’d pay for it myself and it’s not cheap, but I think I’m correct here so I’d have rewritten history and nobody is doing it.

[Megalophias]

It's not like Native Americans with Old World haplogroups have never been tested at higher resolution - not as much as we'd like, but some academically, and quite a bit privately. Just none of them have turned out to be anything special. There is quite a lot of ancient DNA now too, and it's all Q1 and C2.

We don't actually know if the C2b-P39 is from a more recent migration to the New World, though it is certainly plausible. Mt hg X2 has a distribution limited to North America as well, but we know from ancient DNA that it was present already 9000 years ago.

[Shulamite]

It's not like Native Americans with Old World haplogroups have never been tested at higher resolution - not as much as we'd like, but some academically, and quite a bit privately. Just none of them have turned out to be anything special. There is quite a lot of ancient DNA now too, and it's all Q1 and C2.

We don't actually know if the C2b-P39 is from a more recent migration to the New World, though it is certainly plausible. Mt hg X2 has a distribution limited to North America as well, but we know from ancient DNA that it was present already 9000 years ago.

Nobody has tested a sample size for the haplogroups that are contentious. It’s like they don’t want to, I’m not in that territory as a person but why haven’t they done it: it would be easy for them. And with mtDNA X2 sure, but to me, it couldn’t have gotten there without there being a West Asian or Eurasian population moving into the Baikal area and then to Alaska. Yet we don’t have much evidence of this population.

Because of the isolation of the Americas we could figure it out *purely* from SNPs

[Shulamite]

Here’s something I’d associate with it:

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[Shulamite]

The aurignacian pic is an old migration, for sure, that would be 30-20kya roughly. But it’s more that the populations sort of just went that way and a branch would keep going inevitably.

[Shulamite]

Oh and that aurignacian part probably could explain the mtDNA X2a, if it weren’t for the distribution being so narrow and associated with other haplogroups (mainly R1b, C2 and Q1 branches not part of the big wave). I don’t see why X2a couldn’t have followed the same trajectory as C-P39, along with those other haplogroups too, ie that Na-Dene migration bar the E-M81

[Shulamite]

Sorry lots of comments: the maps aren’t as good as looking at subclade distributions which is what I did seeing the haplogroups in studies meant to discover pre-Colombian lineages. G1b was there, there’s more R1b in the Alaska region and the parts of Canada near it than there is in that R1 map everyone’s seen etc

[Megalophias]

People don't want to spend a bunch of time and money carefully examining these haplogroups just in case something exotic turns up. Yeah, it's frustrating, but there you go. If what you are looking for exists it should turn up eventually without anyone specifically targeting it. So far it hasn't. And there is no good reason to expect it ever will.

[Shulamite]

I think it will. Look at this for instance, you can see like a breadcrumb trail in NE Siberia of G1b. I don’t think it’s a coincidence it turned up in a study: how many Europeans have G1b anyway

47670

[Megalophias]

I think it will. Look at this for instance, you can see like a breadcrumb trail in NE Siberia of G1b. I don’t think it’s a coincidence it turned up in a study: how many Europeans have G1b anyway
Huh? That map doesn't show any G1b in Northeast Siberia, or even any sample points between Baikalia and Chukotka. What's the reason for circling those areas?

[Shulamite]

Omg whoops those are letters for Russia lol, in any case they found it in Xiongnu and it’s much older

[Shulamite]

Principal component analysis, outgroup-f3 statistics and mitochondrial DNA and Y chromosome haplogroups (G1b and Q1a1b, respectively) demon- strate a close affinity between Ancient Palaeo-Siberians and present-day Koryaks, Itelmen and Chukchis, as well as with Native Americans

47671

It’s just obvious why would G1b in the Americas be from some conquistador or settler

Oh dear that’s mtDNA, still it did say G1b as Y DNA for the Americas.

[Megalophias]

Well, have fun with this, honestly I'm pretty lost and will bow out now.

[Ryukendo]

It's not like Native Americans with Old World haplogroups have never been tested at higher resolution - not as much as we'd like, but some academically, and quite a bit privately. Just none of them have turned out to be anything special. There is quite a lot of ancient DNA now too, and it's all Q1 and C2.

We don't actually know if the C2b-P39 is from a more recent migration to the New World, though it is certainly plausible. Mt hg X2 has a distribution limited to North America as well, but we know from ancient DNA that it was present already 9000 years ago.

Hey Megalphias, so one of the Lapa do Santo individuals turned out C2b, which kinds throws a spanner in the works of the idea that C2b is associated with the Na-Dene expansion. I agree that the geography of it (only inland, not in Eskimos etc) is extremely intriguing though.

The C2b-P39 that Native Americans have is represented on Yfull by zero samples. Its merely noted on single branch with a single snp, with no further subbranches. Is there anywhere we can go to find out more about the phylogeny of this subclade, and to e.g. check whether a scenario where Na-Dene-related North American C2b-P39 is nested in a single subclade in such a way as to suggest later arrival is still plausible?

[Ebizur]

Hey Megalphias, so one of the Lapa do Santo individuals turned out C2b, which kinds throws a spanner in the works of the idea that C2b is associated with the Na-Dene expansion. I agree that the geography of it (only inland, not in Eskimos etc) is extremely intriguing though.

The C2b-P39 that Native Americans have is represented on Yfull by zero samples. Its merely noted on single branch with a single snp, with no further subbranches. Is there anywhere we can go to find out more about the phylogeny of this subclade, and to e.g. check whether a scenario where Na-Dene-related North American C2b-P39 is nested in a single subclade in such a way as to suggest later arrival is still plausible?Ryukendo, please excuse my intrusion, but I believe that FamilyTreeDNA may have the best data available regarding haplogroup C-P39.

Based on the Y-DNA of 49 individuals from Canada, 34 individuals from the United States, and 14 individuals of unknown (or undeclared) origin, FTDNA has estimated the TMRCA of C-P39 to be 4,100 ± 850 years.

C-P39 is currently tabulated on the Y-DNA Haplotree at FTDNA under a C-BY728 clade, but it appears that FTDNA does not possess any example of C-BY728(xP39) in its customer database, so I infer that the inclusion of this C-BY728 node on the Haplotree must have been motivated by the finding of an example of C-BY728(xP39) in some archaeological specimen, perhaps the Lapa do Santo individual to which you have referred. FTDNA currently estimates the TMRCA of C-BY728 to be 11,000 ± 2,100 years.

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[anthrofennica]

Hey Megalphias, so one of the Lapa do Santo individuals turned out C2b, which kinds throws a spanner in the works of the idea that C2b is associated with the Na-Dene expansion. I agree that the geography of it (only inland, not in Eskimos etc) is extremely intriguing though.

The C2b-P39 that Native Americans have is represented on Yfull by zero samples. Its merely noted on single branch with a single snp, with no further subbranches. Is there anywhere we can go to find out more about the phylogeny of this subclade, and to e.g. check whether a scenario where Na-Dene-related North American C2b-P39 is nested in a single subclade in such a way as to suggest later arrival is still plausible?

C2b? If you are referring to the Brazilian specimen CP19 ~9.85 kya, Columbo et al. 2022 specificies C2a-L1373*. I checked ISOGG 2019-2020 and they also designate L1373 as a C2a defining SNP. Has the classification changed since? Or is there a different Lapo do Santo sample? The modern American members of C2a, excluding "recent" arrivals from deeply diverged clades, include 3 from NW Amuzgo (PUT336, GUV85, GVG01) and 1 Waranka Quichua. All the moderns fall under C2a2b-MPB373, whose closest relative is C2a1a-F1699 (TMRCA 14.2 kya) found in NE Asia today.

As for C2a1a1a-P39, we seem to find it mainly in Na-Dene speakers, but the 1 Sioux analysed by Columbo et al. 2022 was a C-P39, and of the 7 Algic speakers in different branches it was only the 1 Cheyenne who ended up being a C-P39 member. Fascinating, considering the historical proximity of the Cheyenne and the Sioux.

[Riverman]

Y DNA C-P39, Q-M3, R-M269, G-M285, perhaps (rarely) even E-M81 and seemingly some I-M170 and G-P15 lineages amongst others. It always struck me that this mtDNA X2 in the Americas, divergent as it is, seems a bit off and there’s X2e in Baikalia (my guess would be X2a would be to do with the C-P39 lineage). It looks like a Central Asian migration.


There are even "Native American" E-V13 lineages, some even with an older tree. But there are also some known (by name and origin) E-V13 lineages among the first English settlers and there you go. Same applies for all the other more recent West Eurasian lineages. Especially those younger than the Mesolithic can all be written off. Just check the subclades for those for which its possible, they are all recent, usually recent Spanish, French and English in origin.

I mean its interesting, and worth to investigate, but it has nothing to do with "First Americans" and American Indian Pre-Columbian origins.