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agliboti
12-26-2021, 06:12 PM
Has R1b L21 ever been found in bronze age or iron age France?
Is there any evidence that ancient Gauls carried it or R1b L21 first arrived in France along with the 5th century Britons?

alejandromb92
12-26-2021, 06:15 PM
There is insufficient evidence to conclude that R1b-L21 was found in France before the Iron Age. Therefore, later migrations from Great Britain is the only explanation.

alan
12-26-2021, 06:54 PM
practically no ancient dna samples from bronze or iron age coastal france so nobody knows. I’d be surprised if there wasn’t L21 in northern france in preromam times. The only other candidate would be DF27. My own suspicion is that L21 soread west from the Rhine across north coastal france in the beaker era, may have predominated jn NE France but in Armorica may have mixed with DF27. Over time L21 in NE France was likely hugely diluted by other groups. That’s my guess British beaker is Dutch linked as was NEFrench

alan
12-26-2021, 06:56 PM
Has R1b L21 ever been found in bronze age or iron age France?
Is there any evidence that ancient Gauls carried it or R1B L21 first arrived in France along with the 5th centruy Britons?
were several cases of L21 in iron age france not found in the big French paper? Unless they have since been ruled an error?

David Mc
12-26-2021, 07:16 PM
practically no ancient dna samples from bronze or iron age coastal france so nobody knows. I’d be surprised if there wasn’t L21 in northern france in preromam times. The only other candidate would be DF27. My own suspicion is that L21 soread west from the Rhine across north coastal france in the beaker era, may have predominated jn NE France but in Armorica may have mixed with DF27. Over time L21 in NE France was likely hugely diluted by other groups. That’s my guess British beaker is Dutch linked as was NEFrench

This is where I sit right now too. Having said that, if one looks at the distance covered by tribal movements within continental Europe itself, it's possible some of the L21s come from even farther afield. My money would be on the north of France and maybe even Belgium, though.

Dewsloth
12-26-2021, 07:37 PM
This is where I sit right now too. Having said that, if one looks at the distance covered by tribal movements within continental Europe itself, it's possible some of the L21s come from even farther afield. My money would be on the north of France and maybe even Belgium, though.
Yeah, while there is a block of British Beakers who look autosomally extremely similar to Dutch Beakers, it seems the uniparental cousins have already had some sort of falling out/divorce settlement. There is as yet no L21 nor DF27 in Dutch Beaker and no U106 (iirc) nor DF19 in Beaker below the Rhine delta mouth or across the Channel.

It’s like another Yamnaya vs north R1b/L51 Corded Ware split.

agliboti
12-26-2021, 08:33 PM
were several cases of L21 in iron age france not found in the big French paper? Unless they have since been ruled an error?

I'm not aware of this one, Maciamo posted the Y dna haplogroup from the recent La Tène paper on Eupedia Forum and regarding Iron Age Eastern Gauls samples (Northeast and Southeast) , it looks like those carrying R1b had either R1b U152 or undefined R1b P312.

alan
12-26-2021, 08:47 PM
I'm not aware of this one, Maciamo posted the Y dna haplogroup from the recent La Tène paper on Eupedia Forum and regarding Iron Age Eastern Gauls samples (Northeast and Southeast) , it looks like those carrying R1b had either R1b U152 or undefined R1b P312.

I think L21 is likely to have a north coastal Gaul distribution. I never expected it in landlocked areas. L21 and DF27 can clearly already both be seen to have developed formidable maritime skills in the beaker era that would be impossible for non coastal peoples. It’s likely L21 was largely on the coast and in the lower reaches of major rivers where dominating maritime travel meant dominating the adjacent land too.

alan
12-26-2021, 09:03 PM
Yeah, while there is a block of British Beakers who look autosomally extremely similar to Dutch Beakers, it seems the uniparental cousins have already had some sort of falling out/divorce settlement. There is as yet no L21 nor DF27 in Dutch Beaker and no U106 (iirc) nor DF19 in Beaker below the Rhine delta mouth or across the Channel.

It’s like another Yamnaya vs north R1b/L51 Corded Ware split.
I believe the vast majority of dutch beaker graves only have a shadow of the body dissolved by the acid soils so it may be the case that we will never be able to get ancient DNA from the earliest L21 men who lived on the continent prior to moving to Britain. You can brt though they then lived right on the coast because L21 very quickly spread to Britain and also Ireland with almost no delay between the islands. So they clearly were maritime adaoted. The Irish copper/copper/gold objects made it back to NW France too in the 2400-2200BC era so it’s clear they were good sailors able to sail some rough seas. They also settled in the outer hebrides, Rathlin etc

David Mc
12-26-2021, 10:21 PM
were several cases of L21 in iron age france not found in the big French paper? Unless they have since been ruled an error?

IIRC, there was one that they initially labeled as M222 from somewhere near Marseille. Turned out to be wrong, though.

Webb
12-27-2021, 01:38 AM
were several cases of L21 in iron age france not found in the big French paper? Unless they have since been ruled an error?

You are correct. There were a few L21 samples from the French paper, was it a year ago, or longer? I don’t remember. But they were all Iron Age.

Kopfjäger
12-27-2021, 03:01 AM
I believe the vast majority of dutch beaker graves only have a shadow of the body dissolved by the acid soils so it may be the case that we will never be able to get ancient DNA from the earliest L21 men who lived on the continent prior to moving to Britain. You can brt though they then lived right on the coast because L21 very quickly spread to Britain and also Ireland with almost no delay between the islands. So they clearly were maritime adaoted. The Irish copper/copper/gold objects made it back to NW France too in the 2400-2200BC era so it’s clear they were good sailors able to sail some rough seas. They also settled in the outer hebrides, Rathlin etc

I agree - we see the affinities British Beaker had with those from the Netherlands, so the likely vector into the British Isles was through the Low Countries. Before this, maybe the North European Plain?

This is not to say that L21 was later diluted by other groups, but even today we see residual frequency in the Low Countries, not to mention further north.

Tolan
12-27-2021, 10:58 AM
You are correct. There were a few L21 samples from the French paper, was it a year ago, or longer? I don’t remember. But they were all Iron Age.

Are you sure?
I believe there is none but I would be happy to be wrong!

There are U152, DF27, but not yet L21.
But there are no samples in the westernern France. The only P312 before JC in this region has no subclade (Morbihan, Brittany)

jdean
12-27-2021, 12:14 PM
Are you sure?
I believe there is none but I would be happy to be wrong!

There are U152, DF27, but not yet L21.
But there are no samples in the westernern France. The only P312 before JC in this region has no subclade (Morbihan, Brittany)

Early continental L21 is proving frustratingly absent from papers, the M222 in the French paper (as pointed out by David Mc earlier) was an error.

Luckily the no. of people who try to make meat of this is very limited and I've yet to see somebody try and pursue it.

End of the day, much like U106, we know L21 was hanging out somewhere on the continent in the copper/early Bronze age but we just need to be patient for the right paper to come along with the empirical proof.

Webb
12-27-2021, 01:52 PM
Are you sure?
I believe there is none but I would be happy to be wrong!

There are U152, DF27, but not yet L21.
But there are no samples in the westernern France. The only P312 before JC in this region has no subclade (Morbihan, Brittany)

You are correct. I had to go back to the 7000 years of something something in France paper. Just the one sample. Did it turn out not to be L21, or just not M222?

jdean
12-27-2021, 02:18 PM
You are correct. I had to go back to the 7000 years of something something in France paper. Just the one sample. Did it turn out not to be L21, or just not M222?

Apparently the there were some problems in the table that had that info in which were pointed out to the author, this is the reply I had about the sample.


We used Y-leaf to determine Y haplogroup, and we have rerun the analyses on the shotgun data (Table 5-2) with the updated version of the software, an update that isonlya few months old. The results are entirely consistent with those presented in Table 5-2. Pech8 is identified by the software as R1b1a1b1a1, based on more than 4400 independent markers. When we used sequence capture (Table 5-1), we targeted a subset of the Y SNPs only, and thus with a similar number of total reads mapping on the Y, we obtained only a little bit more than 700 informative SNPs. As a consequence, the software cannot determine the Y haplogroup beyond R1b1a1b. The final assignment presented in Fig. 1C was thus based on the shotgun data presented in Table 5.2.

TigerMW
01-02-2022, 09:23 PM
I propose we think and define some part and geography of the Bell Beakers as Northwest Bell Beakers. The 2018 Olalde paper described the "transformation of northwest Europe" with Bell Beakers and that they replaced 90% of the population of the British Isles.

They had a very high frequency of R1b-L21 and may actually be able to be described as the R1b-L21 Bell Beaker group. We know for sure this encompassed the British Isles but they converted the Isles as an existing population group so L21 must have been existed elsewhere first.

I submit that the Northwest Bell Beaker territories also included from Bretagne back up to the Rhine-Meuse Delta and possibly to up the Rhine a bit. L21 in Bretagne could have been there along time, only to consolidate with Old Britons during Anglo-Saxon times.

Over time these continental territories eroded, particularly close to the Rhine and Belgium. Since the early British Bell Beakers were related to the Rhenish Bell Beakers it's hard not to include the Rhenish Bell Beakers as Northwest Bell Bakers. They obviously eroded in Benelux, and may have significantly eroded on along the French Coast of the English Channel but testing in France has not been adequate. Possibly, some of these areas (we'd expect Bretagne) to have significant L21 still.

This erosion of the Northwest Bell Beaker descendants also occurred in Britain, primarily in the east, center and south. However Wales and Scotland did not erode much nor did Ireland.

The old Northwest Bell Beaker territories must have been speaking something close enough too or easily adapted to archaic Celtic.

I've been looking at the the R1b-L21 early tree structure. There are some 156 early branches that were formed within six variants downstream of the R1b-L21 MRCA. They probably all formed before 2000 BC, but clearly during the times the Northwest Bell Beakers were most prevalent. Almost every single one of the early branches have British Isles descendants today. Only one or two don't. They look France but there is only one or two members in a subclade its not much of a trend.

This is not to say that there are not subclades of R1b-L21 that aren't clearly Iberian or clearly Scandinavian, but these types of subclades came later than the Northwest Bell Beaker times. My guess is they have to do with trade and exchange.

TigerMW
01-02-2022, 09:29 PM
Branches of R1b-L21 forming within six variants downstream of the R1b>P312>Z290>L21 MRCA. The aggregate coverage is much greater than the average individual Big Y700 coverage and some of these aren't true SNPs. Therefore, I think the number of years per variant for the six variant range should be 60 years, maybe only 50, but definitely not more than 80.

R1b-A5846
R1b-S552
R1b-S552>F4006 (BTW, I don't know who this is but it is Germany)
R1b-S552>DF13
R1b-S552>DF13>DF21
R1b-S552>DF13>DF21>
R1b-S552>DF13>DF21>FGC3213
R1b-S552>DF13>DF21>FGC3213>Z16532
R1b-S552>DF13>DF21>FGC3213>ZZ1
R1b-S552>DF13>DF21>FGC3213>BY43863
R1b-S552>DF13>DF21>FGC3213>BY99030
R1b-S552>DF13>DF21>S5488
R1b-S552>DF13>DF21>S5488>FGC11358
R1b-S552>DF13>DF21>S5488>Z16294
R1b-S552>DF13>DF21>S5488>BY518
R1b-S552>DF13>DF21>S5488>A6487
R1b-S552>DF13>DF21>S5488>BY518
R1b-S552>DF13>DF21>S5488>A6487
R1b-S552>DF13>DF21>S5488>BY12129
R1b-S552>DF13>DF21>S5488>FT35590
R1b-S552>DF13>DF21>Z30233
R1b-S552>DF13>DF21>Z30233>CTS8704
R1b-S552>DF13>DF21>Z30233>BY9405
R1b-S552>DF13>DF21>Z30233>BY57462
R1b-S552>DF13>DF21>BY178021
R1b-S552>DF13>L513
R1b-S552>DF13>FGC11134
R1b-S552>DF13>FGC11134>FGC12055
R1b-S552>DF13>FGC11134>FGC12055>CTS1864
R1b-S552>DF13>FGC11134>FGC12055>Z3026
R1b-S552>DF13>FGC11134>FGC12055>A286
R1b-S552>DF13>FGC11134>FGC12055>ZZ44
R1b-S552>DF13>FGC11134>FGC12055>BY35192
R1b-S552>DF13>FGC11134>FGC12055>BY34877
R1b-S552>DF13>FGC11134>FGC12055>BY25637
R1b-S552>DF13>FGC11134>FGC12055>BY101803
R1b-S552>DF13>FGC11134>BY105095
R1b-S552>DF13>FGC5494
R1b-S552>DF13>FGC5494>Y9096
R1b-S552>DF13>FGC5494>FGC5561
R1b-S552>DF13>FGC5494>FGC5561>FGC19916
R1b-S552>DF13>FGC5494>FGC5561>FGC19329
R1b-S552>DF13>FGC5494>FGC5561>FGC82708
R1b-S552>DF13>FGC5494>FGC5561>FGC5495
R1b-S552>DF13>FGC5494>A7835
R1b-S552>DF13>FGC5494>A12897
R1b-S552>DF13>FGC5494>BY173578
R1b-S552>DF13>FGC5494>FT55944
R1b-S552>DF13>FGC5494>PH38
R1b-S552>DF13>ZZ10
R1b-S552>DF13>ZZ10>Z253
R1b-S552>DF13>ZZ10>BY4047
R1b-S552>DF13>ZZ10>Z16423
R1b-S552>DF13>ZZ10>Z16423>Z255
R1b-S552>DF13>ZZ10>CTS10201
R1b-S552>DF13>ZZ10>CTS10201>CTS3386
R1b-S552>DF13>ZZ10>CTS10201>BY12521
R1b-S552>DF13>ZZ10>CTS10201>PH4760
R1b-S552>DF13>ZZ10>FGC42672
R1b-S552>DF13>ZZ10>FGC42672>MC14
R1b-S552>DF13>ZZ10>FT60000
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>DF41
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>L580
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>CTS1751
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>CTS1751>Z17966
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>CTS1751>BY3927
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>CTS1751>BY183413
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>CTS1751>BY54624
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>DF49
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>L1335
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>L1335>L1065
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>L1335>Z16450
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>L1335>V4591
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>S1026
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>S1026>Z16886
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>S1026>BY3929
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>S1026>A1108
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>S1026>BY23442
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>S1026>S1011
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>S1026>BY203202
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>S1026>FT183200
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>Z251
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>Z251>Z16943
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>Z251>S11556
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>Z251>BY68688
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>Z251>FGC13899
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>S1051
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>Z16500
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>FGC35996
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>A9507
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>FGC13780
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>FGC33712
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>BY19419
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>L526
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>BY34749
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>FT404207
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>BY23964
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>FGC43681
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>FGC43681>BY2868
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>FGC43681>FGC53506
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>FGC43681>BY69786
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>FGC43681>FT43892
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>FT262970
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>FT262970>FGC20101
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>FT262970>BY195872
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>FT262970>FT404909
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>FGC13749
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>FGC13749>FGC20101
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>FGC13749>FGC13742
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>FGC13749>PH4241
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>Y126199
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>Y126199>BY55538
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>Y126199>BY69231
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>Y126199>BY155923
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>Y15134
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>Y15134>L371
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>Y15134>FT95370
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>FT124129
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>FT124129>BY3925
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>FGC59881
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>FGC59881>S16264
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>FGC59881>BY23473
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>FGC59881>BY577
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>BY173464
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>FTA32602
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>FGC24305
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>BY15941
R1b-S552>DF13>Z39589>FTB43212
R1b-S552>DF13>BY23434
R1b-S552>DF13>BY39001
R1b-S552>DF13>BY174832
R1b-S552>DF13>BY192942
R1b-S552>DF13>BY145002
R1b-S552>DF13>BY145002>FT185001
R1b-S552>DF13>BY60223
R1b-S552>DF13>BY197676
R1b-S552>DF63
R1b-S552>DF63>CTS6919
R1b-S552>DF63>BY592
R1b-S552>DF63>BY592>Z16245
R1b-S552>DF63>BY592>A7810
R1b-S552>DF63>BY592>BY38638
R1b-S552>DF63>BY592>BY35104
R1b-S552>DF63>BY592>BY35104>FTA17619
R1b-S552>DF63>BY592>BY35104>Y96622
R1b-S552>DF63>BY592>FT55255
R1b-S552>DF63>BY711
R1b-S552>DF63>FT91736
R1b-S552>DF63>FT91736>BY28644
R1b-S552>DF63>FT91736>FT31089
R1b-S552>DF63>FT42464
R1b-S552>BY11894
R1b-S552>BY24776
R1b-S552>BY2994
R1b-S552>FT21374

moesan
01-02-2022, 10:06 PM
L21 is present allover today France at low levels, and between 5 and 10% northern Spain northern Portugal, between 15 and 20% in Basque country. Over 20% in northwestern France until Paris Basin, the maxima largely over that in Brittany and western Normandy. Even some points of Romance Switzerland had L21 and according to Maciamo Italy Emilia would have more than 5% of L21.
I doubt there have been strong moves from West to East in past, no more recently; so I think L21 was more dense or at least less tiny in continental France before it has been erased by more recent U152 from East and DF27 from South (when? maybe already before IA).
A lot of Y-R1bfound in Celtic France has not been studied for their deep subclades (poor DNA?) and we lack a majority of regions there.
L21 in the Netherlands before, at BB's times? almost sure! BTW, "Brittany" rich Tumuli (western Aremorica) has had tied with Wessex culture, itself tied to Rhine mouth cultures which followed the first settlements of BB's in the Isles.
the first origin of L21? Hard to say, because Atlantic Bronze could have launched a crossing move of DF27 northwards and L21 southwards. The Britton "emigraton" in Aremorica (more than a move) has reinforced the L21 presence there, but I bet they were already their since long ago, two directions moves were daily life in the Channel long before the historical times.

JonikW
01-03-2022, 12:15 AM
L21 is present allover today France at low levels, and between 5 and 10% northern Spain northern Portugal, between 15 and 20% in Basque country. Over 20% in northwestern France until Paris Basin, the maxima largely over that in Brittany and western Normandy. Even some points of Romance Switzerland had L21 and according to Maciamo Italy Emilia would have more than 5% of L21.
I doubt there have been strong moves from West to East in past, no more recently; so I think L21 was more dense or at least less tiny in continental France before it has been erased by more recent U152 from East and DF27 from South (when? maybe already before IA).
A lot of Y-R1bfound in Celtic France has not been studied for their deep subclades (poor DNA?) and we lack a majority of regions there.
L21 in the Netherlands before, at BB's times? almost sure! BTW, "Brittany" rich Tumuli (western Aremorica) has had tied with Wessex culture, itself tied to Rhine mouth cultures which followed the first settlements of BB's in the Isles.
the first origin of L21? Hard to say, because Atlantic Bronze could have launched a crossing move of DF27 northwards and L21 southwards. The Britton "emigraton" in Aremorica (more than a move) has reinforced the L21 presence there, but I bet they were already their since long ago, two directions moves were daily life in the Channel long before the historical times.

I think you're spot on about the movement both ways and I reckon L21 was indeed found in parts of France in the Iron Age and earlier, and we're just lacking the samples.

Caesar had his own interests at heart in what he wrote of course but it's interesting that his Gallic Wars is full of material like this that suggests deep and long-standing cultural, linguistic and familial ties by the first century BC, with movements in both directions across the channel (this passage is about the Veneti from Armorica): "They secured the alliance of various tribes in the neighbourhood (the Osismi, Lexovii, Namnetes, Ambiliati, and Diablintes) and of the Morini and Menapii, and summoned reinforcements from Britain, which faces that part of Gaul."

And this, perhaps even more suggestive, about a tribe in the Belgic area near today's Soissons: "The Suessiones, near neighbours of the Remi themselves, had an extensive and very fertile territory. They had been ruled within living memory by Diviciacus, the most powerful king in Gaul, who controlled not only a large part of the Belgic country, but Britain as well."

Leaping forward a few hundred years, are there any L21 subclades found in Brittany with the right ballpark TMRCA for a sub-Roman migration from Britain? I'd also be interested in Galicia and its surrounds for the same reason.

Webb
01-03-2022, 04:08 PM
I think you're spot on about the movement both ways and I reckon L21 was indeed found in parts of France in the Iron Age and earlier, and we're just lacking the samples.

Caesar had his own interests at heart in what he wrote of course but it's interesting that his Gallic Wars is full of material like this that suggests deep and long-standing cultural, linguistic and familial ties by the first century BC, with movements in both directions across the channel (this passage is about the Veneti from Armorica): "They secured the alliance of various tribes in the neighbourhood (the Osismi, Lexovii, Namnetes, Ambiliati, and Diablintes) and of the Morini and Menapii, and summoned reinforcements from Britain, which faces that part of Gaul."

And this, perhaps even more suggestive, about a tribe in the Belgic area near today's Soissons: "The Suessiones, near neighbours of the Remi themselves, had an extensive and very fertile territory. They had been ruled within living memory by Diviciacus, the most powerful king in Gaul, who controlled not only a large part of the Belgic country, but Britain as well."

Leaping forward a few hundred years, are there any L21 subclades found in Brittany with the right ballpark TMRCA for a sub-Roman migration from Britain? I'd also be interested in Galicia and its surrounds for the same reason.

There is this study that is concentrated along the North of Spain and France. They sampled a fairly large number of men, close to 1000 and the study stretches from Cantabria to Chalosse and south from Burgos over to Bigorre. L21 was much higher in the Basque area than outside the Basque area, which is not what I would have expected. L21 gets up close to 25% of the men sampled in the Basque region. DF27 is about the same inside and outside the Basque region, and U152 reaches around 5% at the highest, but is absent in most of the sampled areas. This study tries to correlate the areas with the Roman era Celtic and non Celtic tribes. I don't know if a proper study has ever been done in Galicia, though. The supplementary information has a excel spreadsheet giving the number of samples and Ydna calls per area.

"Evidence of pre-Roman tribal genetic structure in Basques from uniparentally inherited markers".
https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/29/9/2211/1077096

JoeyP37
01-03-2022, 05:47 PM
My great-great-grandfather Arthur Robishaw was French L21 with Poitevin paternal origin, seems a bit too far south for Bretons, maybe an L21 Gaul.

agliboti
04-01-2022, 07:07 PM
the study "Origin and mobility of Iron Age Gaulish groups in present-day France revealed through archaeogenomics "(https://www.cell.com/iscience/fulltext/S2589-0042(22)00364-9#supplementaryMaterial ), shows that R1b L21 was present in different regions of Ancient Gaul (Paris, Normandy, Alsace, and Languedoc)

Aben Aboo
04-01-2022, 07:21 PM
I am sorry, i know it's not the topic, just please where does come from L23?

MitchellSince1893
04-01-2022, 07:58 PM
I am sorry, i know it's not the topic, just please where does come from L23?

My two cents
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontic%E2%80%93Caspian_steppe

Aben Aboo
04-01-2022, 08:05 PM
My two cents
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontic%E2%80%93Caspian_steppe

Thanks, my bad, I rather wanted to know about L51, I am sorry:\

MitchellSince1893
04-02-2022, 02:56 AM
Thanks, my bad, I rather wanted to know about L51, I am sorry:\

Probably the same as L23 as L51 descendant, L52 was found in Afanasievo culture in Mongolia (sample I6222 dated 3316-2918 calBC)

Aben Aboo
04-02-2022, 06:00 AM
Probably the same as L23 as L51 descendant, L52 was found in Afanasievo culture in Mongolia (sample I6222 dated 3316-2918 calBC)

Ok, i see, please can i send you PM for other questions about haplogroup? Thank you very much.

MitchellSince1893
04-02-2022, 06:19 AM
Ok, i see, please can i send you PM for other questions about haplogroup? Thank you very much.
Sure.
Here is a thread on the L51 origin

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20130-L51-amp-Sub-Clades-Area-of-Origination-Poll-for-those-willing-to-go-out-on-a-limb

Aben Aboo
04-02-2022, 03:33 PM
Sure.
Here is a thread on the L51 origin

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20130-L51-amp-Sub-Clades-Area-of-Origination-Poll-for-those-willing-to-go-out-on-a-limb

Thank you very much:)

David Mc
04-02-2022, 10:19 PM
I don't usually double post in different threads, but thought it fit here as well. Here's what I have for the R-L21 remains associated with the "Origin and mobility of Iron Age Gaulish groups in present-day France revealed through archaeogenomics" paper. Am I missing any samples? Thoughts on locations and tribal associations? I'm not sure about the significance of PECH3 yet...

COL239 France, Haut-Rhin, Colmar "Jardin des Aubépines" La Tène B740-390BC R-L21>DF21>S6189
Notes: Territory of the Gaulish Sequani or Belgic Leuci?

GDF1348 France, Aube, Barbuise les Grèves de Frécul La Tène 500-300BC R-L21>DF13> FGC11134>A1334
Notes: Territory of the Tricasses, Parisi, or Senones?

UN19 France, Manche, Urville-Nacqueville La Tène 120-80BC R-L21>DF21>S3057
Notes: Unelli Territory, but buried in "Durotrigian" style inhumation instead of usual cremation

PECH3 France, Aude, Oppidum de Pech Maho “La Tène" 225-200 BC LR-L21>DF13>FGC5494>FGC5544
Notes: This sample may be from a skull taken as a trophy, making origins uncertain.