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Scythoslav
01-05-2022, 06:08 AM
We all know so far ALL of the paleo- Berber iberomaurusian samples are E-M78. Can modern North African E-M81 be directly linked to the Natufian E-Z827(direct ancestor of E-M81) samples found or is there a chance that E-M81 developed from some yet to be found E-Z827 ancestor present in NA? Opinions?

Scythoslav
01-05-2022, 06:29 AM
“The pattern of distribution and variance to be consistent with the hypothesis of a post Paleolithic "demic diffusion" from the East.[13] The ancestral lineage of E-M81 in their hypothesis could have been linked with the spread of Neolithic food-producing technologies from the Fertile Crescent via the Nile, although pastoralism rather than agriculture. E-M81 and possibly proto-Afroasiatic language may have been carried either all the way from Asia, or they may represent a "local contribution to the North African Neolithic transition".“

capsian
01-05-2022, 07:04 PM
We all know so far ALL of the paleo- Berber iberomaurusian samples are E-M78. Can modern North African E-M81 be directly linked to the Natufian E-Z827(direct ancestor of E-M81) samples found or is there a chance that E-M81 developed from some yet to be found E-Z827 ancestor present in NA? Opinions?

No Y DNA E-L19 is north african

capsian
01-05-2022, 07:20 PM
We all know so far ALL of the paleo- Berber iberomaurusian samples are E-M78. Can modern North African E-M81 be directly linked to the Natufian E-Z827(direct ancestor of E-M81) samples found or is there a chance that E-M81 developed from some yet to be found E-Z827 ancestor present in NA? Opinions?

not found any remains in levant it s E-Z827
most samples are E-Z830+E-M78 and other haplgroup like H-P96 and T-M70

Scythoslav
01-05-2022, 10:16 PM
not found any remains in levant it s E-Z827
most samples are E-Z830+E-M78 and other haplgroup like H-P96 and T-M70

There is literally one sample of supposedly E-M78 ever found in the Levant, it’s super low quality(we don’t know for sure if it is E-M78) and it was found later among PPNB not one Natufian sample is E-M78.

I’m just wondering why there is a complete absence of parent of E-M81 in paleo-Berber samples if it’s it’s supposed to be native Maghrebi. Maybe it came with the capsians from the east or even later?

drobbah
01-05-2022, 10:20 PM
What’s paleo-Berber?

Scythoslav
01-05-2022, 10:21 PM
What’s paleo-Berber?

Paleolithic and Mesolithic maghrebi people. Iberomaurusians is the best example.

capsian
01-05-2022, 10:29 PM
There is literally one sample of supposedly E-M78 ever found in the Levant, it’s super low quality(we don’t know for sure if it is E-M78) and it was found later among PPNB not one Natufian sample is E-M78.

I’m just wondering why there is a complete absence of parent of E-M81 in paleo-Berber samples if it’s it’s supposed to be native Maghrebi. Maybe it came with the capsians from the east or even later?

there are remains from cave Ifri N'Amr Ou Moussa it s E-L19* and one remains E-M81

drobbah
01-05-2022, 10:36 PM
Paleolithic and Mesolithic maghrebi people. Iberomaurusians is the best example.
Those aren’t Berbers though.That’s like calling Mota paleo-Omotic even though he didn’t speak an Omotic language or anything ancestral to one

Scythoslav
01-05-2022, 10:45 PM
there are remains from cave Ifri N'Amr Ou Moussa it s E-L19* and one remains E-M81

Right but that sample is from much later. It’s from when Neolithic migrations were in full force already. Where were the ancestors of E-L19 during iberomaurusian times?

Scythoslav
01-05-2022, 10:46 PM
Those aren’t Berbers though.That’s like calling Mota paleo-Omotic even though he didn’t speak an Omotic language or anything ancestral to one

Should of said paleo-maghrebi

drobbah
01-05-2022, 10:58 PM
East Cushitic E-V6 and South Cushitic E-M293 are both E-Z827 descended lineages. That doesn't make them Natufian..most E-M35 lineages probably originated from within the borders of Modern Egypt at some point and considering the Natufians had minor IBM (North African ancestry) it is safe to assume that this lineage was an early male dominated North African incursion into the Levant

capsian
01-05-2022, 11:01 PM
Right but that sample is from much later. It’s from when Neolithic migrations were in full force already. Where were the ancestors of E-L19 during iberomaurusian times?

very possible haplogroup E-L19 was lived near Tunis or Libya in peroid iberomaurusian but possible too was found in remains iberomaurusian in future

capsian
01-05-2022, 11:02 PM
East Cushitic E-V6 and South Cushitic E-M293 are both E-Z827 descended lineages. That doesn't make them Natufian..most E-M35 lineages probably originated from within the borders of Modern Egypt at some point and considering the Natufians had minor IBM (North African ancestry) it is safe to assume that this lineage was an early male dominated North African incursion into the Levant

i agree with you

capsian
01-05-2022, 11:18 PM
47928
Migration of Haplogroup E-M35

Imesmouden
01-06-2022, 06:36 PM
Right but that sample is from much later. Itís from when Neolithic migrations were in full force already. Where were the ancestors of E-L19 during iberomaurusian times?

The E-L19 sample from early neolithic in Morocco was autosomally similar to iberomaurisians

and we have a lack in ancient dna in North africa , so we can't say that E-L19 was absent in the maghreb during iberomaurisian times because we only have some few remains tested and from one site

Scythoslav
01-06-2022, 07:32 PM
The E-L19 sample from early neolithic in Morocco was autosomally similar to iberomaurisians

and we have a lack in ancient dna in North africa , so we can't say that E-L19 was absent in the maghreb during iberomaurisian times because we only have some few remains tested and from one site

Aren’t the Iberomaurusian samples from two sites? Taforalt and Afalou? I would expect there to be at least one pre-E-L19 among the samples if it was widespread among Iberomaurusians.

My theory is that pre-L19 lineages were more eastern than Maghreb during the Paleolithic and Mesolithic. And came into Maghreb during the late Mesolithic and Neolithic with the Capsians. Either way all E-M35 probably comes from Mushabian like people who split into a western(E-M78) and eastern (pre-L19) migration.

Imesmouden
01-06-2022, 07:36 PM
Aren’t the Iberomaurusian samples from two sites? Taforalt and Afalou? I would expect there to be at least one pre-E-L19 among the samples if it was widespread among Iberomaurusians.

My theory is that pre-L19 lineages were more eastern than Maghreb during the Paleolithic and Mesolithic. And came into Maghreb during the late Mesolithic and Neolithic with the Capsians. Either way all E-M35 probably comes from Mushabian like people who split into a western(E-M78) and eastern (pre-L19) migration.

They didn't extract mechta afalou y-dna

Scythoslav
01-06-2022, 07:48 PM
They didn't extract mechta afalou y-dna

The sample was too low quality or they just didn’t do it yet?

capsian
01-06-2022, 07:49 PM
Aren’t the Iberomaurusian samples from two sites? Taforalt and Afalou? I would expect there to be at least one pre-E-L19 among the samples if it was widespread among Iberomaurusians.

My theory is that pre-L19 lineages were more eastern than Maghreb during the Paleolithic and Mesolithic. And came into Maghreb during the late Mesolithic and Neolithic with the Capsians. Either way all E-M35 probably comes from Mushabian like people who split into a western(E-M78) and eastern (pre-L19) migration.

my theory Haplogroup E-L19 is formed in Libya and before 12.000 years old expansion north west africa

Imesmouden
01-07-2022, 12:08 PM
The sample was too low quality or they just didn’t do it yet?

i think it's about the samples quality

Jalisciense
01-25-2022, 04:28 PM
I am mexican and E1b-L19-M81-PF2546 is my haplogroup.

Someone knows if I inherited from a Spaniard or a Sephardic Jew?

Farroukh
01-28-2022, 03:32 PM
Did you upgrade your YDNA result at FTDNA?
Your current subclade is too abstract.

chocrafter
01-28-2022, 08:33 PM
I hint the origin of E-L19/E-M81 to the east, a possible candidate is the egyptian western desert. In fact an egyptian western desert population from el-Hayez oasis showed a significant frequency of M81 (Kujanova et al. 2009)

8.2kya green sahara pause could have brought basal E-L19 from the east that is found in Morocco EN, then the 5kya desertification cause early berber groups to spread westwards matching with MRCA of E-M81