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nee4speed111
01-15-2022, 09:43 AM
I've often noticed that the biggest difference between Copts & Egyptian muslims other than the SSA shift is the depressed amounts of Natufian related ancestry Egyptian muslims carry relative to copts. Thanks to another user on a different forum, here are the attempts to model both groups:


Target: Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
Distance: 3.2342% / 0.03234200
49.0 Levant_Natufian
26.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
11.6 IRN_Wezmeh_N
11.2 GEO_CHG
1.4 Yoruba
0.6 Sudanese


Target: England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
Distance: 3.7740% / 0.03774015
46.2 Levant_Natufian
27.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
13.4 IRN_Wezmeh_N
11.8 GEO_CHG
0.8 Yoruba


Target: EGY_Late_Period
Distance: 3.3708% / 0.03370801
53.0 Levant_Natufian
26.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
10.4 IRN_Wezmeh_N
9.6 GEO_CHG
0.6 Sudanese


Target: Copt5_scaled
Distance: 3.7530% / 0.03752960
48.2 Levant_Natufian
26.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
13.0 IRN_Wezmeh_N
6.2 GEO_CHG
6.0 Sudanese


Target: Egyptian:Coptic_Egyptian
Distance: 2.9577% / 0.02957678
49.6 Levant_Natufian
24.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
14.0 IRN_Wezmeh_N
7.0 GEO_CHG
4.0 Sudanese
1.2 Yoruba


Target: Copt4_scaled
Distance: 2.9772% / 0.02977171
49.6 Levant_Natufian
25.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
14.0 IRN_Wezmeh_N
5.6 Sudanese
5.2 GEO_CHG


Target: Copt3_scaled
Distance: 3.1947% / 0.03194723
51.0 Levant_Natufian
25.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
12.2 IRN_Wezmeh_N
7.6 GEO_CHG
3.8 Sudanese
0.2 Yoruba


Target: Egyptian_muslim_average_scaled
Distance: 2.2673% / 0.02267288
38.2 Levant_Natufian
26.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
15.8 IRN_Wezmeh_N
6.2 GEO_CHG
6.0 Sudanese
5.0 Yoruba
1.2 Yamnaya_UKR
1.0 MAR_Iberomaurusian


Target: Coptsudan_scaled
Distance: 3.0965% / 0.03096483
48.8 Levant_Natufian
25.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
13.8 IRN_Wezmeh_N
6.0 GEO_CHG
6.0 Sudanese


Target: Nee4speed111_scaled
Distance: 4.0726% / 0.04072620
52.0 Levant_Natufian
24.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
10.6 IRN_Wezmeh_N
8.0 GEO_CHG
3.8 Sudanese
0.8 Yoruba


Target: Copt1_scaled (Potential Armenian acestry)
Distance: 2.8835% / 0.02883488
41.8 Levant_Natufian
31.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
19.6 IRN_Wezmeh_N
3.4 Yamnaya_UKR
2.8 Sudanese
1.4 Yoruba

The fundamental difference between copts & our Egyptian samples seems to be AEA ancestry, best proxied by either Sudanese or Dinka like ancestry although this is probably an imperfect fit for this AEA component. However, a simply 2 way model of AE + SSA doesn't seem to work for Egyptian muslims due to their relatively depressed Natufian related ancestry, some models to display what I mean.


Target: Egyptian_muslim_average_scaled
Distance: 1.2448% / 0.01244809
26.2 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
25.8 EGY_Late_Period
21.8 Lebanese_Christian
14.8 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
7.0 Sudanese
4.4 Yoruba


Target: COPTIC_AVERAGE
Distance: 1.4128% / 0.01412847
57.6 EGY_Late_Period
32.6 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
5.0 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
4.8 Sudanese

When I attempt to model an average of Copts & Egyptian muslims using both the Egyptian samples on hand along with both an extra SSA source and a levantine proxy using Lebanese christians, the copts don't need a levantine source and their ancestry can be modeled as a two way mix of Egyptian & Sudanese, whereas the Egyptian muslim average does pick up a levantine source. Attempting to model this levantine ancestry with some ancient samples produces the following results:

With Levant_Abel_IA


Target: Egyptian_muslim_average_scaled
Distance: 1.4630% / 0.01463009
31.8 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
24.2 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
18.0 Levant_Abel_IA
14.8 EGY_Late_Period
6.4 Sudanese
4.8 Yoruba


Target: COPTIC_AVERAGE
Distance: 1.4128% / 0.01412847
57.6 EGY_Late_Period
32.6 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
5.0 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
4.8 Sudanese

With Levant_Baqah_BA


Target: Egyptian_muslim_average_scaled
Distance: 1.5134% / 0.01513414
35.2 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
22.2 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
20.2 Levant_Baqah_BA
11.0 EGY_Late_Period
6.8 Sudanese
4.6 Yoruba


Target: COPTIC_AVERAGE
Distance: 1.4128% / 0.01412847
57.6 EGY_Late_Period
32.6 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
5.0 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
4.8 Sudanese

With Levant_Beirut_ERoman


Target: Egyptian_muslim_average_scaled
Distance: 1.3490% / 0.01349006
35.0 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
20.2 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
17.4 EGY_Late_Period
16.2 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
6.8 Sudanese
4.4 Yoruba


Target: COPTIC_AVERAGE
Distance: 1.4128% / 0.01412847
57.6 EGY_Late_Period
32.6 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
5.0 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
4.8 Sudanese

With Levant_Sidon_MBA


Target: Egyptian_muslim_average_scaled
Distance: 1.4367% / 0.01436744
28.6 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
23.8 Levant_Sidon_MBA
19.0 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
17.2 EGY_Late_Period
7.0 Sudanese
4.4 Yoruba


Target: COPTIC_AVERAGE
Distance: 1.4128% / 0.01412847
57.6 EGY_Late_Period
32.6 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
5.0 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
4.8 Sudanese

As the results seem to show, while both Copts & Muslims are both majority descendant of these Ancient Egyptian samples, it seems that once you account for the excess SSA ancestry (which in Copts at least is either due to the facts Copts are ancestrally descendant from Upper Egypt or actual Nubian Christian ancestry), there is a levantine pull in Egyptian muslims as they seem to consistently require a Levantine source for a portion of their ancestry in all the models.

nee4speed111
01-15-2022, 10:31 AM
Here I attempt to discern the source of the excess SSA ancestry in modern Egyptians, thanks to the Kulubnarti samples we seem to have a good proxy for much of the excess in SSA in both Copts & muslims, I will run the same pop's but include Kulubnarti as one of the source populations:


Target: Egyptian_muslim_average_scaled
Distance: 1.0668% / 0.01066770
29.8 Lebanese_Christian
23.4 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
18.6 EGY_Late_Period
16.6 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
6.8 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
4.8 Yoruba


Target: COPTIC_AVERAGE
Distance: 1.2563% / 0.01256272
46.6 EGY_Late_Period
34.4 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
11.6 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
7.4 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian

Using the Lebanese Christian sample, it seems that Copts still don't pick up any levantine ancestry but all of their SSA is absorbed by the Kulubnarti samples & the fits improve, the Egyptian muslims also have their AEA like ancestry absorbed but their is still a West African signal along with an increase in Levantine ancestry compared to before.

Using the ancient samples:

With Levant_Abel_IA


Target: Egyptian_muslim_average_scaled
Distance: 1.4541% / 0.01454053
30.0 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
22.2 Levant_Abel_IA
21.4 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
10.2 EGY_Late_Period
8.2 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
5.0 Yoruba
3.0 Sudanese


Target: COPTIC_AVERAGE
Distance: 1.2562% / 0.01256171
46.6 EGY_Late_Period
34.0 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
11.6 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
7.4 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
0.4 Levant_Abel_IA

With Levant_Baqah_BA


Target: Egyptian_muslim_average_scaled
Distance: 1.5130% / 0.01513006
36.0 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
22.8 Levant_Baqah_BA
20.2 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
6.4 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
5.8 EGY_Late_Period
4.8 Yoruba
4.0 Sudanese


Target: COPTIC_AVERAGE
Distance: 1.2563% / 0.01256293
47.0 EGY_Late_Period
33.2 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
11.8 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
6.6 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
1.4 Levant_Baqah_BA

With Levant_Beirut_ERoman


Target: Egyptian_muslim_average_scaled
Distance: 1.3182% / 0.01318168
35.4 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
23.4 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
13.0 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
12.0 EGY_Late_Period
8.4 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
4.6 Yoruba
3.2 Sudanese


Target: COPTIC_AVERAGE
Distance: 1.2563% / 0.01256272
46.6 EGY_Late_Period
34.4 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
11.6 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
7.4 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian

With Levant_Sidon_MBA


Target: Egyptian_muslim_average_scaled
Distance: 1.4134% / 0.01413351
29.0 Levant_Sidon_MBA
26.6 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
15.2 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
12.8 EGY_Late_Period
8.2 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
4.6 Yoruba
3.6 Sudanese


Target: COPTIC_AVERAGE
Distance: 1.2560% / 0.01255970
46.6 EGY_Late_Period
33.8 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
11.6 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
7.4 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
0.6 Levant_Sidon_MBA

Interestingly enough, when you model both the Coptic & Muslim averages using ancient levantine sources, it seems that Egyptian muslims need a Sudanese source for some of their AEA ancestry whereas the model consistently absorbs all of the AEA in Copts through the Nubian Christian proxy, perhaps a reflection of a slight AEA pull in modern Lebanese Christians that doesn't show up in direct admixture results & that the ancient Levantines did not have?

Also interesting is that in 3 out of the 4 ancient models, Copts show a very slight levantine pull, around ~1% of their ancestry, which also seems to correspond to the Muslim Egyptian results as their levantine ancestry increases by around 2-5%.

Another thing to notice is that once you use the ancient levantine sources, Copts actually have higher Nubian Christian ancestry than the Egyptian muslims do, which does seem to strongly imply that the elevated AEA ancestry in modern Copts is probably as a result of Nubian Christian admixture in the medieval period, whereas the elevated SSA ancestry in Egyptian muslims needs both a West African source and a East African source in addition to the Nubian Christian samples.

Lank
01-15-2022, 11:28 AM
Interesting stuff! Are there any Lower Egyptian Copts (without recent Upper Egyptian ancestry) to compare with? I believe most of the academic Egyptian Muslim samples are from Lower Egypt.

nee4speed111
01-15-2022, 11:46 AM
Interesting stuff! Are there any Lower Egyptian Copts (without recent Upper Egyptian ancestry) to compare with? I believe most of the academic Egyptian Muslim samples are from Lower Egypt.

I believe the Copt3 sample above was born in Alexandria, however the thing you have to realize with Copts is that due to historical events (revolts etc), almost all modern day Copts have ancestral origins in Middle-Upper Egypt from Beni Suef to Sohag. Around 1800 there were virtually no Christians living in the Delta, with the Christian communities in Cairo and Alexandria being very small. Major pockets in Middle Egypt, however, had remained isolated until 1800 and Christians there formed a substantial size of the population and, in several places, even constituted the majority.

To put it another way, when Napolean invades Egypt in 1798, the french conduct a survey of Egypt to determine the population size & while their estimates should be taken with a grain of salt, there was supposedly only around 10,000 Copts in Cairo at the time & even fewer in Alexandria, its only during the days of Muhammad Ali and his successors many Upper Egyptians, including Christians, were encouraged to work in the Delta.

Christians in the Delta repeatedly tell stories explaining that their forefathers came from Upper Egypt but came to the Delta and the Suez Canal region for economic opportunities in the 19th and first half of the 20th century; for example cotton production around Al-Zaqāzīq and building the Suez Canal for many Christians living in Ismailia. It was suggested practically no Christians lived in the Delta, with the exception of Alexandria, prior to Khedive Muhammad Ali.

I believe this also explains the very high levels of genetic homogeneity Copts display, as from Alexandria all the way to Khartoum in Sudan Copts are essentially the same genetically, with only little variation.

Seabass
01-16-2022, 12:14 AM
Are you sure England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o wasn't a Nabataean?

nee4speed111
01-16-2022, 12:14 AM
Thanks to another user for pointing out that there may also be a Northwest African Berber like signature in some Modern Egyptian samples, as they seem to have Taforalt ancestry that cannot be explained as a 3 way model of AE, Levantine & SSA, so to investigate I will run the exact same source populations but will also add Canary_Islands_Guanche ancient samples.

Using the Lebanese Christian sample


Target: Egyptian_muslim_average_scaled
Distance: 0.9422% / 0.00942153
29.8 Lebanese_Christian
23.0 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
16.4 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
12.8 EGY_Late_Period
9.0 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
4.8 Canary_Islands_Guanche
4.2 Yoruba


Target: COPTIC_AVERAGE
Distance: 1.2563% / 0.01256272
46.6 EGY_Late_Period
34.4 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
11.6 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
7.4 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian


It does seem like he was correct, there is no change in the Coptic average once I add Canary_islands_Guanche but the Egyptian muslim average does seem to pick up some Guanche ancestry and slightly depress the AE ancestry, with the fit improving slightly.

Now with the ancient samples:

With Levant_Abel_IA


Target: Egyptian_muslim_average_scaled
Distance: 1.1712% / 0.01171184
27.8 Levant_Abel_IA
24.2 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
20.4 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
9.0 Canary_Islands_Guanche
6.4 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
4.4 EGY_Late_Period
4.0 Sudanese
3.8 Yoruba


Target: COPTIC_AVERAGE
Distance: 1.2562% / 0.01256171
46.6 EGY_Late_Period
34.0 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
11.6 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
7.4 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
0.4 Levant_Abel_IA

With Levant_Baqah_BA


Target: Egyptian_muslim_average_scaled
Distance: 0.9850% / 0.00985037
43.4 Levant_Baqah_BA
21.4 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
13.4 Canary_Islands_Guanche
7.4 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
6.8 Sudanese
3.0 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
2.8 Yoruba
1.8 EGY_Late_Period


Target: COPTIC_AVERAGE
Distance: 1.2563% / 0.01256293
47.0 EGY_Late_Period
33.2 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
11.8 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
6.6 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
1.4 Levant_Baqah_BA


With Levant_Beirut_ERoman


Target: Egyptian_muslim_average_scaled
Distance: 1.0811% / 0.01081103
33.4 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
25.2 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
14.0 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
7.6 Canary_Islands_Guanche
6.0 EGY_Late_Period
6.0 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
4.2 Sudanese
3.6 Yoruba


Target: COPTIC_AVERAGE
Distance: 1.2563% / 0.01256272
46.6 EGY_Late_Period
34.4 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
11.6 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
7.4 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian

With Levant_Sidon_MBA


Target: Egyptian_muslim_average_scaled
Distance: 0.9837% / 0.00983693
40.2 Levant_Sidon_MBA
17.0 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
11.0 Canary_Islands_Guanche
10.0 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
7.8 EGY_Late_Period
5.8 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
5.4 Sudanese
2.8 Yoruba


Target: COPTIC_AVERAGE
Distance: 1.2564% / 0.01256374
47.4 EGY_Late_Period
33.2 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
11.8 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
6.2 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
1.4 Levant_Sidon_MBA


While the Coptic average remains completely unchanged with the Canary_Islands_Guanche added as a source population, the Egyptian muslim average improves quite significantly with the Guanches compared to the previous run using only ancient populations, with basically all the ancestry proportions changing. It seems to increase the Ancient Levantine signal in Egyptian muslims and depress the amount of AE ancestry being registered, along with a Guanche like signal being picked up on in every run.

I'm not 100% sure what to make of this, but it does seem to strongly imply that there was a very complex admixture process in Egypt over the past millennia.

nee4speed111
01-16-2022, 12:23 AM
Are you sure England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o wasn't a Nabataean?

Almost certain, he displays a East African signal that none of his contemporary levantine ancient populations do, he is significantly Natufian enriched compared to any Roman Era sample, he clusters with our current Egyptian samples, he has a Taforalt signal unlike any levantine population & the actual study that the sampled was sourced from does a Sr and O isotope analysis in the supplementary material and they state the following on his likely geographic origins


Turning to the Levant, citing amongst others study of rainfall in the Upper Jordan Valleyestimated an upper limit of only *4.5 ‰ for most of the Levantine coast, with values reducing further, east of the Levantine coastal plain, suggesting none of these regions would provide a place of origin for 3DRIF*26.
Similarly, who conducted a survey of water δ18O data in modern day Israel and Jordan reported valuesabove *3‰ only for individual coastal aquifers in the south, with the majority of values in the region well below *4‰

The mean value for 87Sr/86Sr in Theban limestones and Nile sediments is reported to be 0.70777 59,95, a value identical to that of 3DRIF*26
The best fit for3DRIF*26’s carbon and nitrogen isotope data are therefore currently human populations from the Lower Nile Valley in Egypt, possibly also from Nubia, although a greater C4 component in diet of most individuals and relatively low δ15N in human groups that best fit the time*frame 13 makes the latter appear less likely

Mnemonics
01-16-2022, 01:30 AM
Thanks to another user for pointing out that there may also be a Northwest African Berber like signature in some Modern Egyptian samples, as they seem to have Taforalt ancestry that cannot be explained as a 3 way model of AE, Levantine & SSA, so to investigate I will run the exact same source populations but will also add Canary_Islands_Guanche ancient samples.

Using the Lebanese Christian sample





It does seem like he was correct, there is no change in the Coptic average once I add Canary_islands_Guanche but the Egyptian muslim average does seem to pick up some Guanche ancestry and slightly depress the AE ancestry, with the fit improving slightly.

Now with the ancient samples:

With Levant_Abel_IA





With Levant_Baqah_BA





With Levant_Beirut_ERoman





With Levant_Sidon_MBA





While the Coptic average remains completely unchanged with the Canary_Islands_Guanche added as a source population, the Egyptian muslim average improves quite significantly with the Guanches compared to the previous run using only ancient populations, with basically all the ancestry proportions changing. It seems to increase the Ancient Levantine signal in Egyptian muslims and depress the amount of AE ancestry being registered, along with a Guanche like signal being picked up on in every run.

I'm not 100% sure what to make of this, but it does seem to strongly imply that there was a very complex admixture process in Egypt over the past millennia.

I would be careful when using the Guanche samples to model the Egyptians' excess Taforalt, they seem to have picked up something more Eastern (likely via something similar to the Chalcolithic North African samples) which could be causing the extra affinity.





Target: Canary_Islands_Guanche:gun012
Distance: 1.9507% / 0.01950698 | ADC: 0.25x RC
33.6 ITA_Sardinia_Punic
25.4 MAR_Taforalt
20.8 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
18.8 MAR_LN
1.4 Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE

Target: Canary_Islands_Guanche:gun011
Distance: 1.9045% / 0.01904518 | ADC: 0.25x RC
39.0 ITA_Rome_Imperial
24.0 MAR_Taforalt
19.2 Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE
11.0 ITA_Sardinia_Punic
6.8 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti

Target: Canary_Islands_Guanche:gun008
Distance: 1.9849% / 0.01984869 | ADC: 0.25x RC
33.6 Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE
23.4 MAR_Taforalt
23.0 TUR_Catalhoyuk_N_Ceramic
13.8 ITA_Sardinia_Punic
3.8 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
2.4 BWA_Taukome_1100BP

Target: Canary_Islands_Guanche:gun005
Distance: 2.6938% / 0.02693764 | ADC: 0.25x RC
36.8 Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE
25.0 MAR_LN
13.8 MAR_Taforalt
8.6 BGR_Bacho_Kiro_MUP
8.6 ITA_Sardinia_Punic
7.2 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti

Target: Canary_Islands_Guanche:gun002
Distance: 2.8150% / 0.02815031 | ADC: 0.25x RC
38.4 ITA_Sardinia_Punic
24.8 ITA_Rome_Imperial
14.0 MAR_Taforalt
9.2 MAR_EN
7.2 MAR_LN
4.8 COG_Kindoki_230BP
1.6 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti

nee4speed111
01-16-2022, 01:32 AM
I would be careful when using the Guanche samples to model the Egyptians' excess Taforalt, they seem to have picked up something more Eastern (likely via something similar to the Chalcolithic North African samples) which could be causing the extra affinity.





Target: Canary_Islands_Guanche:gun012
Distance: 1.9507% / 0.01950698 | ADC: 0.25x RC
33.6 ITA_Sardinia_Punic
25.4 MAR_Taforalt
20.8 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
18.8 MAR_LN
1.4 Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE

Target: Canary_Islands_Guanche:gun011
Distance: 1.9045% / 0.01904518 | ADC: 0.25x RC
39.0 ITA_Rome_Imperial
24.0 MAR_Taforalt
19.2 Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE
11.0 ITA_Sardinia_Punic
6.8 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti

Target: Canary_Islands_Guanche:gun008
Distance: 1.9849% / 0.01984869 | ADC: 0.25x RC
33.6 Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE
23.4 MAR_Taforalt
23.0 TUR_Catalhoyuk_N_Ceramic
13.8 ITA_Sardinia_Punic
3.8 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
2.4 BWA_Taukome_1100BP

Target: Canary_Islands_Guanche:gun005
Distance: 2.6938% / 0.02693764 | ADC: 0.25x RC
36.8 Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE
25.0 MAR_LN
13.8 MAR_Taforalt
8.6 BGR_Bacho_Kiro_MUP
8.6 ITA_Sardinia_Punic
7.2 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti

Target: Canary_Islands_Guanche:gun002
Distance: 2.8150% / 0.02815031 | ADC: 0.25x RC
38.4 ITA_Sardinia_Punic
24.8 ITA_Rome_Imperial
14.0 MAR_Taforalt
9.2 MAR_EN
7.2 MAR_LN
4.8 COG_Kindoki_230BP
1.6 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti




I see, then it could be a case of overfitting. What source population do you think should be used to test for excess Taforalt ancestry in Egyptians?

Mnemonics
01-16-2022, 01:57 AM
I would try including an EEF source, Taforalt, Kindoki and a Steppe source to try to determine if its actually excess modern Northwest African type ancestry or more of the pristinely excess Taforalt type stuff you find in Kulubnarti_MA and the Ancient Egyptians.

nee4speed111
01-16-2022, 02:10 AM
I would try including an EEF source, Taforalt, Kindoki and a Steppe source to try to determine if its actually excess modern Northwest African type ancestry or more of the pristinely excess Taforalt type stuff you find in Kulubnarti_MA and the Ancient Egyptians.

Should I do the runs with Yoruba included, or will it cause overfitting with Kindoki?

nee4speed111
01-16-2022, 02:37 AM
Okay the results are looking very interesting, Copts are registering minor excess Taforalt without any Steppe, EEF or Kindoki. Here are the runs:

Using Ancient Egyptians, SSA sources (Kindoki, Yoruba & Sudanese), Yamnaya, Taforalt & Neolithic Iberia:


Target: Egyptian_muslim_average_scaled
Distance: 1.3480% / 0.01347999
35.6 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
35.4 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
13.6 EGY_Late_Period
5.4 Sudanese
4.6 Yoruba
2.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
1.4 Iberia_N
1.2 MAR_Taforalt


Target: COPTIC_AVERAGE
Distance: 1.2536% / 0.01253639
45.0 EGY_Late_Period
35.2 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
11.2 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
8.2 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
0.4 MAR_Taforalt

Without including a Levantine proxy, the Coptic fit actually improves slightly with 0.4% of the Kulubnarti being absorbed into the Taforalt component, with no other changes. For Egyptian muslims, the results get a bit strange as their Kulubnarti ancestry disappears completely & they regsiter excess Iberia Neolithic & Yamnaya ancestry. However, this could be partly levantine, so I will include the levantine proxies as per before:

Using the Lebanese Christian sample


Target: Egyptian_muslim_average_scaled
Distance: 0.8581% / 0.00858069
32.6 Lebanese_Christian
25.8 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
13.6 EGY_Late_Period
11.0 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
8.0 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
4.2 Yoruba
2.8 MAR_Taforalt
2.0 Sudanese


Target: COPTIC_AVERAGE
Distance: 1.2536% / 0.01253639
45.0 EGY_Late_Period
35.2 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
11.2 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
8.2 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
0.4 MAR_Taforalt

Copts remain the same as per previous results, however Egyptian muslims register a decent chunk of Taforalt ancestry, a decrease of Kulubnarti ancestry & an increase in Levantine ancestry. Now I will try the runs with ancient levantine samples:

With Levant_Abel_IA


Target: Egyptian_muslim_average_scaled
Distance: 1.0992% / 0.01099184
26.8 Levant_Abel_IA
22.0 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
19.0 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
11.0 EGY_Late_Period
6.8 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
4.0 Yoruba
3.4 Sudanese
3.0 MAR_Taforalt
1.8 Iberia_N
1.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.6 COG_Kindoki_230BP


Target: COPTIC_AVERAGE
Distance: 1.2525% / 0.01252508
46.0 EGY_Late_Period
33.6 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
11.4 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
7.0 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
1.6 Levant_Abel_IA
0.4 MAR_Taforalt

With Levant_Baqah_BA


Target: Egyptian_muslim_average_scaled
Distance: 0.9426% / 0.00942648
42.8 Levant_Baqah_BA
19.0 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
7.6 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
7.0 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
6.2 EGY_Late_Period
4.4 Sudanese
4.2 MAR_Taforalt
4.0 Yoruba
3.0 Iberia_N
1.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara


Target: COPTIC_AVERAGE
Distance: 1.2517% / 0.01251732
46.2 EGY_Late_Period
31.4 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
11.8 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
5.2 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
4.8 Levant_Baqah_BA
0.6 MAR_Taforalt

With Levant_Beirut_ERoman


Target: Egyptian_muslim_average_scaled
Distance: 1.0638% / 0.01063789
32.0 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
24.2 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
14.0 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
9.4 EGY_Late_Period
7.8 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
4.2 Yoruba
3.2 Sudanese
2.4 MAR_Taforalt
1.6 Iberia_N
1.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara


Target: COPTIC_AVERAGE
Distance: 1.2536% / 0.01253639
45.0 EGY_Late_Period
35.2 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
11.2 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
8.2 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
0.4 MAR_Taforalt

With Levant_Sidon_MBA


Target: Egyptian_muslim_average_scaled
Distance: 0.9275% / 0.00927498
38.6 Levant_Sidon_MBA
15.0 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
13.6 EGY_Late_Period
9.8 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
7.6 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
4.2 Sudanese
3.8 Yoruba
3.4 MAR_Taforalt
2.4 Iberia_N
1.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara


Target: COPTIC_AVERAGE
Distance: 1.2529% / 0.01252946
46.8 EGY_Late_Period
32.0 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
11.6 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
5.0 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
4.0 Levant_Sidon_MBA
0.6 MAR_Taforalt

Using the ancient levantine samples, the results get very interesting, for Copts as per the previous run, using Levant_Beirut_ERoman registers 0% levantine in the Coptic average, however the other 3 runs do regsiter some more significant levantine ancestry, from 1-5% & an increase in Taforalt ancestry of 0.6% beyond what is contained in both the Egyptian samples & Kulubnarti ancestry the Coptic average is registering. However it seems that our Kulubnarti ancestry basically remains untouched, with only a slight movement in some of the runs.

Egyptian muslims experience a much larger change, the fits improve considerably compared to before & there seems to be excess Yamnaya, Taforalt & Iberia Neolithic ancestry being picked up, perhaps indeed indicating that Egyptian muslims do have some Northwest African ancestry? There also seems to be a increase in levantine ancestry & much like previously the effect is correspondingly larger than for the Coptic average in each run.

Mnemonics
01-16-2022, 02:55 AM
Should I do the runs with Yoruba included, or will it cause overfitting with Kindoki?

I would try to avoid mixing moderns and ancient if possible. Try including Kakapel to try to capture the AEA instead of Dinka too.

nee4speed111
01-16-2022, 03:24 AM
I would try to avoid mixing moderns and ancient if possible. Try including Kakapel to try to capture the AEA instead of Dinka too.

Same runs as before, only have removed Sudanese & Yoruba and added Kakapel. As the Coptic average remains completely unchanged compared to the previous run, I will only post the Egyptian muslim average runs:

Using Ancient Egyptians, SSA sources (Kindoki & Kakapel ), Yamnaya, Taforalt, Kulubnarti & Neolithic Iberia:


Target: Egyptian_muslim_average_scaled
Distance: 1.4108% / 0.01410836
38.8 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
31.6 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
11.4 EGY_Late_Period
5.6 COG_Kindoki_230BP
4.6 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
3.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
2.6 KEN_Kakapel_900BP
1.2 Iberia_N
1.2 MAR_Taforalt

With Levant_Abel_IA


Target: Egyptian_muslim_average_scaled
Distance: 1.1356% / 0.01135625
28.2 Levant_Abel_IA
22.8 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
16.0 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
11.0 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
9.2 EGY_Late_Period
5.4 COG_Kindoki_230BP
3.0 MAR_Taforalt
1.8 Iberia_N
1.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
1.0 KEN_Kakapel_900B

With Levant_Baqah_BA


Target: Egyptian_muslim_average_scaled
Distance: 1.0246% / 0.01024605
42.6 Levant_Baqah_BA
22.2 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
12.8 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
4.8 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
4.6 COG_Kindoki_230BP
4.0 MAR_Taforalt
3.0 Iberia_N
2.4 EGY_Late_Period
1.8 KEN_Kakapel_900BP
1.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

With Levant_Beirut_ERoman


Target: Egyptian_muslim_average_scaled
Distance: 1.1102% / 0.01110196
35.2 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
24.4 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
12.0 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
10.0 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
6.8 EGY_Late_Period
4.8 COG_Kindoki_230BP
2.4 MAR_Taforalt
1.8 KEN_Kakapel_900BP
1.6 Iberia_N
1.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

With Levant_Sidon_MBA


Target: Egyptian_muslim_average_scaled
Distance: 0.9678% / 0.00967792
40.6 Levant_Sidon_MBA
16.2 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
14.4 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
9.6 EGY_Late_Period
6.4 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
4.4 COG_Kindoki_230BP
3.2 MAR_Taforalt
2.6 Iberia_N
1.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
1.0 KEN_Kakapel_900BP

Mnemonics
01-16-2022, 04:59 AM
Same runs as before, only have removed Sudanese & Yoruba and added Kakapel. As the Coptic average remains completely unchanged compared to the previous run, I will only post the Egyptian muslim average runs:

Using Ancient Egyptians, SSA sources (Kindoki & Kakapel ), Yamnaya, Taforalt, Kulubnarti & Neolithic Iberia:



With Levant_Abel_IA



With Levant_Baqah_BA



With Levant_Beirut_ERoman



With Levant_Sidon_MBA



Creating a single Egyptian Muslim average may be a mistake. There are clear outliers with excess Northwest African, Levantine or Sudanese admixture, it might be more useful to create separate averages for the more Copt-like samples and the more admixed samples (separated by types of admixture).





Target: Egyptian:Egypt9AQ177
Distance: 1.5500% / 0.01550023 | ADC: 0.25x RC
32.6 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
27.2 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
19.0 ITA_Rome_Imperial
10.2 EGY_Late_Period
7.8 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
3.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.2 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o

Target: Egyptian:Egypt9AQ172
Distance: 1.5190% / 0.01518991 | ADC: 0.25x RC
21.8 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
20.8 EGY_Late_Period
17.8 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
16.0 ITA_Sardinia_Punic
10.4 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
4.4 COG_NgongoMbata_220BP
4.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
4.4 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian

Target: Egyptian:Egypt8AT113
Distance: 1.6131% / 0.01613053 | ADC: 0.25x RC
41.0 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
18.8 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
17.4 Levant_JOR_EBA
9.8 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
6.6 COG_Kindoki_230BP
4.2 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
2.2 CMR_Shum_Laka_3000BP

Target: Egyptian:Egypt7AQ172
Distance: 1.7876% / 0.01787556 | ADC: 0.25x RC
26.6 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
25.0 EGY_Hellenistic_contam
19.4 EGY_Late_Period
10.4 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
9.2 TUR_IA
4.8 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
4.6 BWA_Taukome_1100BP

Target: Egyptian:Egypt5AQ172
Distance: 1.6405% / 0.01640521 | ADC: 0.25x RC
37.4 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
19.8 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
13.6 EGY_Late_Period
12.4 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
9.8 EGY_Hellenistic_contam
4.0 TKM_Gonur2_BA
1.4 ZAF_2000BP
1.0 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
0.6 JPN_Jomon

Target: Egyptian:Egypt3AQ172
Distance: 1.6255% / 0.01625507 | ADC: 0.25x RC
29.4 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
16.4 Levant_Baqah_BA
14.0 ITA_Sardinia_Punic
11.6 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
11.6 Levant_ISR_C
7.6 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
4.4 TUR_Kumtepe_N_low_res
4.0 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
0.8 Levant_JOR_EBA
0.2 ITA_Rome_Imperial

Target: Egyptian:Egypt22TD21
Distance: 0.8026% / 0.00802615 | ADC: 0.25x RC
27.4 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
26.0 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
17.6 ITA_Rome_Imperial
14.6 ITA_Sardinia_Punic
9.0 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
3.6 PAK_Arkotkila_IA
1.8 PAK_Loebanr_IA

Target: Egyptian:Egypt1AQ172
Distance: 1.3713% / 0.01371319 | ADC: 0.25x RC
45.2 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
22.6 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
22.0 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
4.0 MNG_Early_Med_Turk
3.8 ITA_Rome_Imperial
2.4 Sarmatian_RUS_Urals

Target: Egyptian:Egypt17AQ176
Distance: 1.0549% / 0.01054852 | ADC: 0.25x RC
22.0 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
19.0 ITA_Rome_Imperial
16.2 EGY_Hellenistic_contam
16.0 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
9.8 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
8.6 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
4.6 PAK_Katelai_IA
3.8 TUR_IA

Target: Egyptian:Egypt15AQ172
Distance: 0.8847% / 0.00884749 | ADC: 0.25x RC
34.2 EGY_Hellenistic_contam
14.6 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
14.4 EGY_Late_Period
11.2 TUR_Ikiztepe_LC
10.4 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
4.8 COG_NgongoMbata_220BP
4.8 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
2.6 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
2.0 RUS_Yana_MA
1.0 TUR_Kumtepe_N_low_res

Target: Egyptian:Egypt12AQ172
Distance: 1.6915% / 0.01691549 | ADC: 0.25x RC
25.2 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
24.6 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
13.0 ITA_Sardinia_Punic
8.8 EGY_Hellenistic_contam
7.8 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
7.4 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
4.6 Levant_LBN_MA
4.4 PAK_Udegram_IA
4.2 SYR_Ebla_EMBA

Target: Egyptian:9AJ129
Distance: 1.3890% / 0.01389001 | ADC: 0.25x RC
25.0 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
12.8 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
12.0 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
12.0 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC
10.8 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
9.2 Iberia_Central_CA_Afr
5.6 COG_NgongoMbata_220BP
4.2 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
3.0 TUR_Kumtepe_N_low_res
2.8 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
2.6 ITA_Sardinia_Punic

Target: Egyptian:8AJ136
Distance: 2.4886% / 0.02488585 | ADC: 0.25x RC
53.0 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
21.6 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
18.0 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
5.8 IRN_Belt_Cave_Meso_low_res
1.6 MAR_Taforalt

Target: Egyptian:8AJ129
Distance: 1.6848% / 0.01684829 | ADC: 0.25x RC
48.6 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
13.2 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
12.4 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
8.4 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
5.4 COG_NgongoMbata_220BP
5.4 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
4.0 ITA_Rome_Imperial
1.6 ARM_LBA
1.0 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1

Target: Egyptian:7AJ136
Distance: 1.9508% / 0.01950818 | ADC: 0.25x RC
23.6 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
21.4 ITA_Rome_Imperial
19.4 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
12.8 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
12.4 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
3.6 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
3.6 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
3.2 CMR_Shum_Laka_8000BP

Target: Egyptian:7AJ129
Distance: 1.7483% / 0.01748323 | ADC: 0.25x RC
22.2 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
20.2 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
15.4 EGY_Hellenistic_contam
14.6 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
8.2 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
7.8 UGA_Munsa_500BP
4.0 IND_Roopkund_A
3.4 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1
3.2 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
1.0 ZAF_400BP

Target: Egyptian:6AJ129
Distance: 1.7333% / 0.01733323 | ADC: 0.25x RC
51.0 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
20.2 EGY_Hellenistic_contam
18.6 Levant_Hazor_MLBA
8.2 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
2.0 CHN_Balong_1500BP

Target: Egyptian:5AJ137
Distance: 1.6834% / 0.01683410 | ADC: 0.25x RC
44.6 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
14.6 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1
11.0 Iberia_Central_CA_Afr
9.4 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
9.0 COG_Kindoki_230BP
6.0 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
2.4 Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE
2.4 TUR_Kumtepe_N_low_res
0.6 BWA_Taukome_1100BP

Target: Egyptian:5AJ136
Distance: 2.0648% / 0.02064834 | ADC: 0.25x RC
30.8 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
20.0 ITA_Sardinia_Punic
18.8 Levant_LBN_MA
14.4 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
5.8 ZAF_400BP
5.4 Levant_LBN_Roman
4.8 IND_Roopkund_A

Target: Egyptian:4AJ137
Distance: 1.4936% / 0.01493562 | ADC: 0.25x RC
36.2 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
22.0 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
17.6 ITA_Rome_Imperial
17.2 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
5.0 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
1.6 EGY_Hellenistic_contam
0.4 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C

Target: Egyptian:4AJ136
Distance: 1.9694% / 0.01969441 | ADC: 0.25x RC
33.8 Levant_Sidon_MBA
16.2 EGY_Hellenistic_contam
13.4 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
12.6 ITA_Sardinia_C_o
8.8 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
7.2 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
3.6 COG_NgongoMbata_220BP
3.6 IRN_Wezmeh_N
0.8 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

Target: Egyptian:3AJ137
Distance: 1.6148% / 0.01614819 | ADC: 0.25x RC
31.4 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
25.0 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
17.2 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
14.8 ITA_Rome_Imperial
5.8 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
3.0 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
2.2 COG_Kindoki_230BP
0.6 TUR_IA

Target: Egyptian:2AJ137
Distance: 1.4108% / 0.01410829 | ADC: 0.25x RC
20.8 EGY_Hellenistic_contam
18.4 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
17.4 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
14.6 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
12.4 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
6.6 Iberia_Central_CA_Afr
5.2 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
3.2 COG_NgongoMbata_220BP
1.4 TUR_Kumtepe_N_low_res

Target: Egyptian:1AJ137
Distance: 1.5769% / 0.01576917 | ADC: 0.25x RC
28.4 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
22.6 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
12.8 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
11.2 ITA_Rome_Imperial
6.2 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
6.0 Levant_LBN_MA
5.8 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
4.0 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
3.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

Target: Egyptian:16AJ137
Distance: 1.7457% / 0.01745700 | ADC: 0.25x RC
24.6 ITA_Rome_Imperial
23.8 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
16.4 EGY_Hellenistic_contam
16.2 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
10.6 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
4.4 TUR_Kumtepe_N_low_res
4.0 PAK_Udegram_IA

Target: Egyptian:15AJ137
Distance: 2.2234% / 0.02223448 | ADC: 0.25x RC
37.0 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
23.8 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
23.4 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
6.2 ITA_Sardinia_C_o
5.0 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C
2.6 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
2.0 ZAF_2000BP

Target: Egyptian:12AJ136
Distance: 1.2786% / 0.01278561 | ADC: 0.25x RC
32.8 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
18.6 Levant_Yehud_IBA
13.2 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
11.6 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
9.8 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
6.2 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
4.8 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
3.0 MNG_Late_Med

Target: Egyptian:12AJ129
Distance: 1.7682% / 0.01768164 | ADC: 0.25x RC
30.0 EGY_Hellenistic_contam
28.8 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
12.2 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
11.6 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
6.6 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
6.0 TUR_Kumtepe_N_low_res
4.8 IND_Roopkund_A

Target: Egyptian:10AJ137
Distance: 1.2918% / 0.01291822 | ADC: 0.25x RC
29.4 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
22.0 Levant_LBN_Roman
17.8 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
11.6 ITA_Sardinia_Punic
9.6 ITA_Rome_Imperial
5.2 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
2.8 TUR_Kumtepe_N_low_res
1.6 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian

Target: Egyptian:10AJ136
Distance: 1.3310% / 0.01330978 | ADC: 0.25x RC
27.2 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
27.0 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
19.8 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
8.0 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
6.8 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
6.0 MAR_Taforalt
2.6 CMR_Shum_Laka_3000BP
2.6 IRN_Wezmeh_N

nee4speed111
01-16-2022, 05:21 AM
Creating a single Egyptian Muslim average may be a mistake. There are clear outliers with excess Northwest African, Levantine or Sudanese admixture, it might be more useful to create separate averages for the more Copt-like samples and the more admixed samples (separated by types of admixture).





Target: Egyptian:Egypt9AQ177
Distance: 1.5500% / 0.01550023 | ADC: 0.25x RC
32.6 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
27.2 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
19.0 ITA_Rome_Imperial
10.2 EGY_Late_Period
7.8 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
3.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.2 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o

Target: Egyptian:Egypt9AQ172
Distance: 1.5190% / 0.01518991 | ADC: 0.25x RC
21.8 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
20.8 EGY_Late_Period
17.8 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
16.0 ITA_Sardinia_Punic
10.4 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
4.4 COG_NgongoMbata_220BP
4.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
4.4 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian

Target: Egyptian:Egypt8AT113
Distance: 1.6131% / 0.01613053 | ADC: 0.25x RC
41.0 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
18.8 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
17.4 Levant_JOR_EBA
9.8 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
6.6 COG_Kindoki_230BP
4.2 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
2.2 CMR_Shum_Laka_3000BP

Target: Egyptian:Egypt7AQ172
Distance: 1.7876% / 0.01787556 | ADC: 0.25x RC
26.6 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
25.0 EGY_Hellenistic_contam
19.4 EGY_Late_Period
10.4 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
9.2 TUR_IA
4.8 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
4.6 BWA_Taukome_1100BP

Target: Egyptian:Egypt5AQ172
Distance: 1.6405% / 0.01640521 | ADC: 0.25x RC
37.4 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
19.8 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
13.6 EGY_Late_Period
12.4 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
9.8 EGY_Hellenistic_contam
4.0 TKM_Gonur2_BA
1.4 ZAF_2000BP
1.0 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
0.6 JPN_Jomon

Target: Egyptian:Egypt3AQ172
Distance: 1.6255% / 0.01625507 | ADC: 0.25x RC
29.4 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
16.4 Levant_Baqah_BA
14.0 ITA_Sardinia_Punic
11.6 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
11.6 Levant_ISR_C
7.6 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
4.4 TUR_Kumtepe_N_low_res
4.0 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
0.8 Levant_JOR_EBA
0.2 ITA_Rome_Imperial

Target: Egyptian:Egypt22TD21
Distance: 0.8026% / 0.00802615 | ADC: 0.25x RC
27.4 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
26.0 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
17.6 ITA_Rome_Imperial
14.6 ITA_Sardinia_Punic
9.0 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
3.6 PAK_Arkotkila_IA
1.8 PAK_Loebanr_IA

Target: Egyptian:Egypt1AQ172
Distance: 1.3713% / 0.01371319 | ADC: 0.25x RC
45.2 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
22.6 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
22.0 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
4.0 MNG_Early_Med_Turk
3.8 ITA_Rome_Imperial
2.4 Sarmatian_RUS_Urals

Target: Egyptian:Egypt17AQ176
Distance: 1.0549% / 0.01054852 | ADC: 0.25x RC
22.0 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
19.0 ITA_Rome_Imperial
16.2 EGY_Hellenistic_contam
16.0 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
9.8 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
8.6 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
4.6 PAK_Katelai_IA
3.8 TUR_IA

Target: Egyptian:Egypt15AQ172
Distance: 0.8847% / 0.00884749 | ADC: 0.25x RC
34.2 EGY_Hellenistic_contam
14.6 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
14.4 EGY_Late_Period
11.2 TUR_Ikiztepe_LC
10.4 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
4.8 COG_NgongoMbata_220BP
4.8 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
2.6 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
2.0 RUS_Yana_MA
1.0 TUR_Kumtepe_N_low_res

Target: Egyptian:Egypt12AQ172
Distance: 1.6915% / 0.01691549 | ADC: 0.25x RC
25.2 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
24.6 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
13.0 ITA_Sardinia_Punic
8.8 EGY_Hellenistic_contam
7.8 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
7.4 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
4.6 Levant_LBN_MA
4.4 PAK_Udegram_IA
4.2 SYR_Ebla_EMBA

Target: Egyptian:9AJ129
Distance: 1.3890% / 0.01389001 | ADC: 0.25x RC
25.0 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
12.8 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
12.0 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
12.0 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC
10.8 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
9.2 Iberia_Central_CA_Afr
5.6 COG_NgongoMbata_220BP
4.2 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
3.0 TUR_Kumtepe_N_low_res
2.8 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
2.6 ITA_Sardinia_Punic

Target: Egyptian:8AJ136
Distance: 2.4886% / 0.02488585 | ADC: 0.25x RC
53.0 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
21.6 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
18.0 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
5.8 IRN_Belt_Cave_Meso_low_res
1.6 MAR_Taforalt

Target: Egyptian:8AJ129
Distance: 1.6848% / 0.01684829 | ADC: 0.25x RC
48.6 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
13.2 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
12.4 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
8.4 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
5.4 COG_NgongoMbata_220BP
5.4 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
4.0 ITA_Rome_Imperial
1.6 ARM_LBA
1.0 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1

Target: Egyptian:7AJ136
Distance: 1.9508% / 0.01950818 | ADC: 0.25x RC
23.6 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
21.4 ITA_Rome_Imperial
19.4 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
12.8 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
12.4 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
3.6 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
3.6 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
3.2 CMR_Shum_Laka_8000BP

Target: Egyptian:7AJ129
Distance: 1.7483% / 0.01748323 | ADC: 0.25x RC
22.2 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
20.2 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
15.4 EGY_Hellenistic_contam
14.6 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
8.2 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
7.8 UGA_Munsa_500BP
4.0 IND_Roopkund_A
3.4 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1
3.2 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
1.0 ZAF_400BP

Target: Egyptian:6AJ129
Distance: 1.7333% / 0.01733323 | ADC: 0.25x RC
51.0 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
20.2 EGY_Hellenistic_contam
18.6 Levant_Hazor_MLBA
8.2 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
2.0 CHN_Balong_1500BP

Target: Egyptian:5AJ137
Distance: 1.6834% / 0.01683410 | ADC: 0.25x RC
44.6 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
14.6 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1
11.0 Iberia_Central_CA_Afr
9.4 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
9.0 COG_Kindoki_230BP
6.0 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
2.4 Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE
2.4 TUR_Kumtepe_N_low_res
0.6 BWA_Taukome_1100BP

Target: Egyptian:5AJ136
Distance: 2.0648% / 0.02064834 | ADC: 0.25x RC
30.8 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
20.0 ITA_Sardinia_Punic
18.8 Levant_LBN_MA
14.4 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
5.8 ZAF_400BP
5.4 Levant_LBN_Roman
4.8 IND_Roopkund_A

Target: Egyptian:4AJ137
Distance: 1.4936% / 0.01493562 | ADC: 0.25x RC
36.2 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
22.0 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
17.6 ITA_Rome_Imperial
17.2 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
5.0 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
1.6 EGY_Hellenistic_contam
0.4 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C

Target: Egyptian:4AJ136
Distance: 1.9694% / 0.01969441 | ADC: 0.25x RC
33.8 Levant_Sidon_MBA
16.2 EGY_Hellenistic_contam
13.4 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
12.6 ITA_Sardinia_C_o
8.8 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
7.2 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
3.6 COG_NgongoMbata_220BP
3.6 IRN_Wezmeh_N
0.8 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

Target: Egyptian:3AJ137
Distance: 1.6148% / 0.01614819 | ADC: 0.25x RC
31.4 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
25.0 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
17.2 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
14.8 ITA_Rome_Imperial
5.8 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
3.0 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
2.2 COG_Kindoki_230BP
0.6 TUR_IA

Target: Egyptian:2AJ137
Distance: 1.4108% / 0.01410829 | ADC: 0.25x RC
20.8 EGY_Hellenistic_contam
18.4 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
17.4 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
14.6 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
12.4 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
6.6 Iberia_Central_CA_Afr
5.2 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
3.2 COG_NgongoMbata_220BP
1.4 TUR_Kumtepe_N_low_res

Target: Egyptian:1AJ137
Distance: 1.5769% / 0.01576917 | ADC: 0.25x RC
28.4 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
22.6 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
12.8 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
11.2 ITA_Rome_Imperial
6.2 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
6.0 Levant_LBN_MA
5.8 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
4.0 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
3.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

Target: Egyptian:16AJ137
Distance: 1.7457% / 0.01745700 | ADC: 0.25x RC
24.6 ITA_Rome_Imperial
23.8 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
16.4 EGY_Hellenistic_contam
16.2 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
10.6 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
4.4 TUR_Kumtepe_N_low_res
4.0 PAK_Udegram_IA

Target: Egyptian:15AJ137
Distance: 2.2234% / 0.02223448 | ADC: 0.25x RC
37.0 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
23.8 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
23.4 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
6.2 ITA_Sardinia_C_o
5.0 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C
2.6 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
2.0 ZAF_2000BP

Target: Egyptian:12AJ136
Distance: 1.2786% / 0.01278561 | ADC: 0.25x RC
32.8 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
18.6 Levant_Yehud_IBA
13.2 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
11.6 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
9.8 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
6.2 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
4.8 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
3.0 MNG_Late_Med

Target: Egyptian:12AJ129
Distance: 1.7682% / 0.01768164 | ADC: 0.25x RC
30.0 EGY_Hellenistic_contam
28.8 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
12.2 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
11.6 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
6.6 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
6.0 TUR_Kumtepe_N_low_res
4.8 IND_Roopkund_A

Target: Egyptian:10AJ137
Distance: 1.2918% / 0.01291822 | ADC: 0.25x RC
29.4 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
22.0 Levant_LBN_Roman
17.8 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
11.6 ITA_Sardinia_Punic
9.6 ITA_Rome_Imperial
5.2 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
2.8 TUR_Kumtepe_N_low_res
1.6 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian

Target: Egyptian:10AJ136
Distance: 1.3310% / 0.01330978 | ADC: 0.25x RC
27.2 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
27.0 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
19.8 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
8.0 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
6.8 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
6.0 MAR_Taforalt
2.6 CMR_Shum_Laka_3000BP
2.6 IRN_Wezmeh_N





Fair enough, you are right that the Egyptian muslim samples seem quite heterogeneous, I just ran them through vahaduo and included the Coptic_Average as a source population, they can vary from quite Copt like to almost nothing at all.

The distance of each of the Egyptian samples to the Coptic average is below, will create better averages later.

Egyptian:6AJ129 0.03397843
Egyptian:Egypt1AQ172 0.03927209
Egyptian:3AJ137 0.0417828
Egyptian:10AJ136 0.04252737
Egyptian:Egypt7AQ172 0.04418851
Egyptian:Egypt12AQ172 0.0456361
Egyptian:Egypt3AQ172 0.04639314
Egyptian:4AJ136 0.04803455
Egyptian:Egypt22TD21 0.04849505
Egyptian:1AJ137 0.04852808
Egyptian:Egypt17AQ176 0.04924876
Egyptian:Egypt15AQ172 0.04925651
Egyptian:12AJ136 0.0493573
Egyptian:9AJ129 0.04983785
Egyptian:2AJ137 0.05011546
Egyptian:Egypt5AQ172 0.05054201
Egyptian:8AJ136 0.05171154
Egyptian:16AJ137 0.05547109
Egyptian:12AJ129 0.05733366
Egyptian:Egypt9AQ172 0.05758495
Egyptian:10AJ137 0.0581534
Egyptian:8AJ129 0.0594795
Egyptian:Egypt8AT113 0.06003921
Egyptian:4AJ137 0.06165698
Egyptian:5AJ136 0.06418996
Egyptian:15AJ137 0.06442393
Egyptian:Egypt9AQ177 0.06445633
Egyptian:7AJ136 0.06838024
Egyptian:7AJ129 0.0860145
Egyptian:5AJ137 0.15016663

lifeisdandy
01-16-2022, 05:46 AM
I don't get how there would be a discernable difference between copts and Muslim Egyptians.

nee4speed111
01-16-2022, 06:13 AM
I don't get how there would be a discernable difference between copts and Muslim Egyptians.

https://i.ibb.co/GWFWBnK/Untitled.jpg

Those are all of the Egyptian samples run through g25vahaduo using only ancient components to determine their genetic makeup, feel free to compare your own results to these to see where the differences are, but on average there is a clear difference in our Natufian component that causes the Egyptian muslim average to be shifted towards the levant as the models on the first page show.

Here are the source samples below, however I believe your results for this particular run are on the first page under Egyptian:Coptic_Egyptian


Levant_Natufian:I0861,0.01935,0.135065,-0.039221,-0.135984,0.026774,-0.076137,-0.019036,-0.024691,0.100626,-0.008018,0.02858,-0.019633,0.067343,0.001651,0.022801,0.02612,-0.0103,0.006714,-0.018101,0.041395,-0.004118,-0.003215,-0.014297,-0.011206,0.011975
CHN_Tianyuan,-0.027318,-0.260991,-0.075424,0.071383,0.033545,-0.018407,-0.00799,-0.003,0.040291,0.021322,-0.006333,-0.005995,-0.003568,-0.00523,-0.000407,-0.000663,0.008084,0.002407,-0.001131,0.027263,-0.001747,0.008037,-0.008874,-0.010845,0.011256
IND_Great_Andamanese_100BP:Andaman,-0.018212,-0.235603,-0.128598,0.098838,0.023389,-0.003904,-0.016686,-0.003231,0.059721,0.02041,0.023222,0.004646,-0.0055,0.001239,-0.016151,-0.008884,0.009518,0.001014,-0.004902,0.026888,-0.00549,0.011994,-0.013311,-0.001205,0.000958
Yamnaya_UKR,0.119514,0.088351,0.044123,0.110144,-0.032006,0.038487,0.00799,0.002308,-0.05788,-0.076721,-0.002761,-0.002398,0.000743,-0.021056,0.033387,0.01485,0.004955,-0.008235,-0.002263,0.015007,0.002121,0.003462,0.002958,0.023 256,0.002874
Anatolia_Barcin_N,0.1175998,0.180118,0.0035312,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437
Levant_Natufian,0.020488,0.1431895,-0.0377125,-0.1387295,0.030775,-0.079484,-0.025616,-0.0175375,0.114329,0.002005,0.0332085,-0.0222555,0.076486,0.002133,0.0153365,0.009016,-0.0154505,-0.001014,-0.02206,0.040832,0.001497,0.0001235,-0.003636,-0.0044585,0.006287
Yoruba,-0.6300625,0.0625011,0.022113,0.0167079,0.0005035,0 .0124741,-0.044417,0.0477673,-0.0488813,0.0327694,0.0046205,0.0007904,0.0230561, 0.0009509,0.0125232,-0.0096067,0.0070763,0.0004491,0.006022,-0.00299,0.0015542,0.0023156,-0.0017592,-0.0004711,-0.0004246
ZAF_2000BP,-0.641583,0.0558543,0.0258957,0.034884,0.001231,-0.0030677,0.2680687,-0.2072223,0.0104307,0.0153683,0.008715,-0.0659913,-0.0216053,0.0064223,0.023751,-0.0201537,0.034204,0.294593,-0.09574,0.0060447,-0.033857,-0.0039157,0.003163,-0.0029323,-0.000399
Sudanese:SUDANESE7,-0.571392,0.046714,-0.007165,-0.007429,-0.005232,-0.002789,-0.00799,0.018922,0.0904,-0.108977,-0.018512,0.020831,-0.047125,0.000688,0.013165,-0.023734,0.021644,-0.012035,0.026145,-0.023261,-0.000998,0.004822,-0.000986,-0.001687,0.003712
Mbuti,-0.6493608,0.0578852,0.0250785,0.038437,-0.001077,0.0054385,0.3631505,-0.291911,0.0193278,0.0323013,-0.0090938,0.2169692,0.1242805,3.45E-05,0.0080072,0.0017568,0.000717,-0.049567,0.015901,0.004471,0.0049288,-0.0020402,-0.002465,0.0057838,0.000389
IRN_Wezmeh_N,0.037562,0.072103,-0.165556,-0.016473,-0.11756,0.01506,0.017861,-0.003231,-0.071583,-0.046835,0.003085,-0.003147,0.00669,0.000688,0.022122,0.053036,-0.011735,0.001014,0.014581,-0.035267,0.009358,-0.023741,-0.006655,-0.032896,0.019998
HUN_Koros_N_HG,0.137726,0.12491,0.180264,0.154395, 0.128332,0.042112,0.015041,0.03646,0.071992,0.0069 25,-0.005196,-0.013488,0.014717,-0.003303,0.028637,0.046141,0.018384,0.005954,-0.008296,0.045772,0.061142,0.010634,-0.040672,-0.124475,0.013053
GEO_CHG,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036
MAR_Iberomaurusian,-0.189857,0.0814452,-0.0242866,-0.085595,0.027636,-0.0552202,-0.0705968,0.0184146,0.155397,0.003499,0.0209156,-0.0318316,0.0747168,-0.0513334,0.0711988,-0.0363032,0.0052676,-0.066106,-0.1424162,0.0389938,-0.0376836,-0.1255322,0.0730118,-0.0137606,0.0164534

lifeisdandy
01-16-2022, 06:39 AM
https://i.ibb.co/GWFWBnK/Untitled.jpg

Those are all of the Egyptian samples run through g25vahaduo using only ancient components to determine their genetic makeup, feel free to compare your own results to these to see where the differences are, but on average there is a clear difference in our Natufian component that causes the Egyptian muslim average to be shifted towards the levant as the models on the first page show.

Here are the source samples below, however I believe your results for this particular run are on the first page under Egyptian:Coptic_Egyptian

I was telling agamemnon that I spoke to an upper Egyptian and he told me all upper Egyptians mixed with yemenis when they left after the destruction of the marib dam....he said that was for the Christians and Muslims as this was before the entering of Islam in Egypt. I have no idea if this is true for the Christians but he said there is a Yemeni component to upper Egyptians. I dunno if that counts for the higher natufian but I had always thought we clustered with yemenis and bedouins closely because of ancient shared ancestry like the Levant ppnb and ppnc.

nee4speed111
01-16-2022, 07:18 AM
I was telling agamemnon that I spoke to an upper Egyptian and he told me all upper Egyptians mixed with yemenis when they left after the destruction of the marib dam....he said that was for the Christians and Muslims as this was before the entering of Islam in Egypt. I have no idea if this is true for the Christians but he said there is a Yemeni component to upper Egyptians. I dunno if that counts for the higher natufian but I had always thought we clustered with yemenis and bedouins closely because of ancient shared ancestry like the Levant ppnb and ppnc.

With all due respect to the person you spoke to, that sounds like complete nonsense not backed by either the genetic, historical or archaeological data. It sounds like the typical pan-arab Egyptian argument for why someone is both 100% Egyptian and a real Arab as well, its makes for a convenient narrative but it has no basis in the actual data. There were actual Arab tribes in Upper Egypt in the medieval period, but that's a very different thing to what this person proposed.

When we eventually get older Ancient DNA from Egypt and they are even more Natufian shifted compared to our current samples are we going to claim they are also some pre-historic Yemenis causing this?

A deep look at the actual genetic data shows that Yemenis are most likely descendant of native Arabian hunter gatherers, their Anatolian N ancestry is too small to be Levant ppnb and ppnc derived, native Arabian hunter gatherer ancestry + bronze age semites is probably the best model for Yemenis.
In fact, they probably have less than half of our Anatolian N ancestry, despite having even more Iran-N related ancestry than us, there is no real model for significant Yemeni ancestry into Egyptians without proposing some strange things like Pre-yemeni Egyptians being super enriched with Anatolian N ancestry and having very low amounts of Natufian related ancestry, a model that directly contradicts the ancient DNA we have from East Africa.

lifeisdandy
01-16-2022, 07:46 AM
With all due respect to the person you spoke to, that sounds like complete nonsense not backed by either the genetic, historical or archaeological data. It sounds like the typical pan-arab Egyptian argument for why someone is both 100% Egyptian and a real Arab as well, its makes for a convenient narrative but it has no basis in the actual data. There were actual Arab tribes in Upper Egypt in the medieval period, but that's a very different thing to what this person proposed.

When we eventually get older Ancient DNA from Egypt and they are even more Natufian shifted compared to our current samples are we going to claim they are also some pre-historic Yemenis causing this?

A deep look at the actual genetic data shows that Yemenis are most likely descendant of native Arabian hunter gatherers, their Anatolian N ancestry is too small to be Levant ppnb and ppnc derived, native Arabian hunter gatherer ancestry + bronze age semites is probably the best model for Yemenis.
In fact, they probably have less than half of our Anatolian N ancestry, despite having even more Iran-N related ancestry than us, there is no real model for significant Yemeni ancestry into Egyptians without proposing some strange things like Pre-yemeni Egyptians being super enriched with Anatolian N ancestry and having very low amounts of Natufian related ancestry, a model that directly contradicts the ancient DNA we have from East Africa.
That's what I figured.

lifeisdandy
01-16-2022, 09:28 AM
I've often noticed that the biggest difference between Copts & Egyptian muslims other than the SSA shift is the depressed amounts of Natufian related ancestry Egyptian muslims carry relative to copts. Thanks to another user on a different forum, here are the attempts to model both groups:























The fundamental difference between copts & our Egyptian samples seems to be AEA ancestry, best proxied by either Sudanese or Dinka like ancestry although this is probably an imperfect fit for this AEA component. However, a simply 2 way model of AE + SSA doesn't seem to work for Egyptian muslims due to their relatively depressed Natufian related ancestry, some models to display what I mean.





When I attempt to model an average of Copts & Egyptian muslims using both the Egyptian samples on hand along with both an extra SSA source and a levantine proxy using Lebanese christians, the copts don't need a levantine source and their ancestry can be modeled as a two way mix of Egyptian & Sudanese, whereas the Egyptian muslim average does pick up a levantine source. Attempting to model this levantine ancestry with some ancient samples produces the following results:

With Levant_Abel_IA





With Levant_Baqah_BA





With Levant_Beirut_ERoman





With Levant_Sidon_MBA





As the results seem to show, while both Copts & Muslims are both majority descendant of these Ancient Egyptian samples, it seems that once you account for the excess SSA ancestry (which in Copts at least is either due to the facts Copts are ancestrally descendant from Upper Egypt or actual Nubian Christian ancestry), there is a levantine pull in Egyptian muslims as they seem to consistently require a Levantine source for a portion of their ancestry in all the models.
Would you say copts are ultimately a middle eastern ethnic group?

nee4speed111
01-16-2022, 10:49 AM
Would you say copts are ultimately a middle eastern ethnic group?

We are an ethnicity that is ultimately rooted in a North-East Africa/Nile Valley/South Levant continuum, I would say we fit pretty well considering our geographic location on this continuum. Alot of our ancestry that is being identified as Natufian is probably native to the Nile valley, I think once we get ancient genomes from both Arabia & Egypt dating before the Neolithic period we will see that what we term as Natufian related ancestry is probably 2 separate sister clades, much in the same way what was once identified as WHG ancestry in Europeans could be split into a WHG & EHG source. This to me probably means a lot of the ancestry that makes up the genome of modern Copts has been around in Egypt for a long time, so in a sense we are as much a North-East African group as we are a middle eastern one.

But tbh alot of this definitional stuff is just semantics and anachronisms we project from our time onto the ancient world, geographical boundaries are just human constructs at the end of the day, there is no magical transition once you crossover from the Sinai into what we deem as Africa or vice versa. So if I really had to choose something, I would simply say Copts are an Egyptian ethnic group, as our ethnogenisis as a people, language, culture, traditions etc were all born in Egypt. I'll let other people decide what that means in terms of what ethnic grouping we belong to.

Mnemonics
01-16-2022, 02:53 PM
With all due respect to the person you spoke to, that sounds like complete nonsense not backed by either the genetic, historical or archaeological data. It sounds like the typical pan-arab Egyptian argument for why someone is both 100% Egyptian and a real Arab as well, its makes for a convenient narrative but it has no basis in the actual data. There were actual Arab tribes in Upper Egypt in the medieval period, but that's a very different thing to what this person proposed.

When we eventually get older Ancient DNA from Egypt and they are even more Natufian shifted compared to our current samples are we going to claim they are also some pre-historic Yemenis causing this?

A deep look at the actual genetic data shows that Yemenis are most likely descendant of native Arabian hunter gatherers, their Anatolian N ancestry is too small to be Levant ppnb and ppnc derived, native Arabian hunter gatherer ancestry + bronze age semites is probably the best model for Yemenis.
In fact, they probably have less than half of our Anatolian N ancestry, despite having even more Iran-N related ancestry than us, there is no real model for significant Yemeni ancestry into Egyptians without proposing some strange things like Pre-yemeni Egyptians being super enriched with Anatolian N ancestry and having very low amounts of Natufian related ancestry, a model that directly contradicts the ancient DNA we have from East Africa.

Looking at the distances we get when modeling Yemenis it seems pretty apparent that something important is missing from them that causes most of our current Levantine samples to not work very well for them. If the Egyptians had large amounts of Yemeni-like admixture the fits for Colts probably wouldn't be as good as they are.

The high Natufian + Minor Kenya_PastoralN related admixture they share is probably causing them to appear closer than they actually are.

I wouldn't entirely rule out minor pre-Islamic Arabian admixture since if I remember correctly Juba II claimed there were Arabian tribes living along the Nile from around Aswan to Meroe, but I doubt it left a very large signature in the already massive Egyptian population.

drobbah
01-16-2022, 06:59 PM
I wouldn't entirely rule out minor pre-Islamic Arabian admixture since if I remember correctly Juba II claimed there were Arabian tribes living along the Nile from around Aswan to Meroe, but I doubt it left a very large signature in the already massive Egyptian population.
One of the Nubian MA samples seems to have real Arabian ancestry.I posted about it here. (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?23077-Medieval-genomes-from-Nubia&p=827249&viewfull=1#post827249)

lifeisdandy
01-17-2022, 12:41 AM
Looking at the distances we get when modeling Yemenis it seems pretty apparent that something important is missing from them that causes most of our current Levantine samples to not work very well for them. If the Egyptians had large amounts of Yemeni-like admixture the fits for Colts probably wouldn't be as good as they are.

The high Natufian + Minor Kenya_PastoralN related admixture they share is probably causing them to appear closer than they actually are.

I wouldn't entirely rule out minor pre-Islamic Arabian admixture since if I remember correctly Juba II claimed there were Arabian tribes living along the Nile from around Aswan to Meroe, but I doubt it left a very large signature in the already massive Egyptian population.
Historically speaking the arabian tribes didn't love along the Nile but in the less populated desert areas. The Egyptians didn't like to live far from the Nile.

Gentica277282
01-17-2022, 11:57 PM
I tried to model them to the best of my ability any suggestions welcome. Also Left natufian in the data sheet was interested to see what the samples will prefer

Target: Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian

Distance: 1.9275% / 0.01927541

56.0 Yemenite_Mahra

25.0 Early_European_Farmer

10.8 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer

5.2 Iberomaurusian

3.0 ETH_4500BP

Target: England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o

Distance: 2.6389% / 0.02638904

55.8 Yemenite_Mahra

25.4 Early_European_Farmer

12.6 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer

4.4 Iberomaurusian

1.6 COG_NgongoMbata_220BP

0.2 Iran_Neolithic

Target: EGY_Late_Period

Distance: 2.4526% / 0.02452580

57.6 Yemenite_Mahra

26.2 Early_European_Farmer

8.2 Iberomaurusian

8.0 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer

Target: EGY_Hellenistic_contam

Distance: 4.4198% / 0.04419829

59.0 Yemenite_Mahra

27.6 Early_European_Farmer

5.4 Iran_Neolithic

5.0 Iberomaurusian

3.0 ETH_4500BP

Gentica277282
01-18-2022, 12:09 AM
With all due respect to the person you spoke to, that sounds like complete nonsense not backed by either the genetic, historical or archaeological data. It sounds like the typical pan-arab Egyptian argument for why someone is both 100% Egyptian and a real Arab as well, its makes for a convenient narrative but it has no basis in the actual data. There were actual Arab tribes in Upper Egypt in the medieval period, but that's a very different thing to what this person proposed.

When we eventually get older Ancient DNA from Egypt and they are even more Natufian shifted compared to our current samples are we going to claim they are also some pre-historic Yemenis causing this?

A deep look at the actual genetic data shows that Yemenis are most likely descendant of native Arabian hunter gatherers, their Anatolian N ancestry is too small to be Levant ppnb and ppnc derived, native Arabian hunter gatherer ancestry + bronze age semites is probably the best model for Yemenis.
In fact, they probably have less than half of our Anatolian N ancestry, despite having even more Iran-N related ancestry than us, there is no real model for significant Yemeni ancestry into Egyptians without proposing some strange things like Pre-yemeni Egyptians being super enriched with Anatolian N ancestry and having very low amounts of Natufian related ancestry, a model that directly contradicts the ancient DNA we have from East Africa.

It depends on the individual I suppose most Egyptians have a good amount of eef ancestry which differentiates them, but you still have Egyptians with a large Arab component Egypt is diverse. Either way you are still all quiet close to each other correct me if Iím wrong

lifeisdandy
01-18-2022, 01:36 AM
It depends on the individual I suppose most Egyptians have a good amount of eef ancestry which differentiates them, but you still have Egyptians with a large Arab component Egypt is diverse. Either way you are still all quiet close to each other correct me if I’m wrong

Egyptians to arabs?

drobbah
01-18-2022, 02:21 AM
Some interesting Egyptian samples from G25
Target: Egyptian:10AJ136
Distance: 3.0428% / 0.03042817 | ADC: 0.25x RC
92.6 Ancient_EGY
4.6 Yoruba
2.8 Dinka

Target: Egyptian:8AJ136
Distance: 3.1722% / 0.03172210 | ADC: 0.25x RC
67.2 Ancient_EGY
19.0 Yemenite_Mahra
8.0 KEN_Pastoral_N
5.8 Yoruba

Target: Egyptian:5AJ137
Distance: 2.8888% / 0.02888757 | ADC: 0.25x RC
67.2 Ancient_EGY
17.2 Yoruba
15.6 KEN_Pastoral_N

Target: Egyptian:7AJ136
Distance: 3.2268% / 0.03226758 | ADC: 0.25x RC
61.6 Levant_Beirut_IAII
23.6 Ancient_EGY
11.2 Dinka
3.6 Yoruba

Target: Egyptian:12AJ129
Distance: 3.8813% / 0.03881253 | ADC: 0.25x RC
44.6 Ancient_EGY
42.8 Levant_Beirut_IAII
12.6 Dinka



Nee4Speed and the other Copt

Target: Copt1_scaled
Distance: 2.0381% / 0.02038098 | ADC: 0.25x RC
94.0 Ancient_EGY
5.0 KEN_Pastoral_N
1.0 Dinka

Target: Copt2_scaled
Distance: 2.5338% / 0.02533781 | ADC: 0.25x RC
61.6 Ancient_EGY
25.0 Levant_Beirut_IAII
8.6 Yemenite_Mahra
4.8 Dinka

Source samples (removed Yoruba when running the Copts tho)
Ancient_EGY:England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o:3DT26,0.0 5122,0.156392,-0.050911,-0.102068,-0.003077,-0.044065,-0.012926,-0.007154,0.031906,0.000364,0.004384,-0.015436,0.027354,0.003853,-0.003936,0.005304,-0.000782,-0.001014,-0.005908,0.010505,0.003494,-0.003833,-0.001109,0.006868,-0.010059
Ancient_EGY:SFI-43,0.0387,0.144205,-0.052797,-0.11725,0.003385,-0.042391,-0.00987,-0.001385,0.046427,0.002551,0.01494,-0.018733,0.033151,0.002615,-0.004343,0.002652,-0.000913,-0.004054,-0.002765,0.02051,0.014974,-0.000989,-0.003081,0.005181,-0.002874
Ancient_EGY:Late_Period,0.050082,0.146744,-0.042426,-0.1183805,-0.0020005,-0.049782,-0.015628,-0.004731,0.0474495,0.006196,0.0090125,-0.011465,0.029732,-0.005849,-0.0008145,-0.0020555,-0.0074315,-0.0019635,-0.0035195,0.0120055,0.005615,0.0016695,0.0036355,0 .003916,-0.0005985
Levant_Beirut_IAII,0.089351,0.155376,-0.054494,-0.1002915,-0.0166185,-0.037511,-0.0069325,-0.004269,0.0197365,0.006925,0.009013,-0.0128885,0.0237115,0.0039225,-0.0147935,0.0129275,-0.0003255,0.002217,0.006662,0.0011255,-0.001248,0.005564,-0.00949,-0.002048,-0.001856
Yemenite_Mahra,0.0542556,0.1360809,-0.0682589,-0.1211978,-0.0037272,-0.056305,-0.0130301,-0.0088204,0.0628798,-0.002045,0.0167981,-0.0325711,0.0657411,0.0058413,0.0080528,0.0270778,-0.0210643,0.0028717,-0.0019133,0.0248312,0.0137259,0.0160887,-0.0087369,0.0027848,-0.0052289
KEN_Pastoral_N,-0.3004929,0.0954598,-0.0263607,-0.0737732,0.0007384,-0.0365346,-0.0094944,-0.0014769,0.1220598,-0.0880928,-0.0057811,-0.0097713,-0.0017243,-0.0018993,0.0229232,-0.0209888,0.0222697,-0.0004942,0.0076929,-0.0014882,0.0019467,0.00298,-0.0040671,-0.0013375,-0.0010058
Dinka,-0.577083,0.0507765,-0.0003773,-0.0075098,-0.0053855,-0.0016735,-0.0176848,0.0204222,0.081145,-0.0969495,-0.02107,0.022742,-0.0383172,-0.0011698,0.0101452,-0.021347,0.0186125,-0.0094382,0.0241968,-0.0241678,0.002402,0.003308,0.001479,0.0009038,0.0 096995
Yoruba,-0.6300625,0.0625011,0.022113,0.0167079,0.0005035,0 .0124741,-0.044417,0.0477673,-0.0488813,0.0327694,0.0046205,0.0007904,0.0230561, 0.0009509,0.0125232,-0.0096067,0.0070763,0.0004491,0.006022,-0.00299,0.0015542,0.0023156,-0.0017592,-0.0004711,-0.0004246

Gentica277282
01-18-2022, 02:28 AM
Egyptians to arabs?
Yeah I mean Egyptians to Arabs Iím sure your distances are fairly close it canít be that much of a gap between you two

lifeisdandy
01-18-2022, 03:46 AM
Yeah I mean Egyptians to Arabs I’m sure your distances are fairly close it can’t be that much of a gap between you two

No its not super far. We cluster nicely with southern levantines and some Arabians.

nee4speed111
01-18-2022, 04:14 AM
Tried various models to create a workable model that can pick up on non-Egyptian affinities, but they all seemed to be misfiring. So I decided to test the samples with all of the Ancient Averages on vahaduo, I also ran them on a distance of 0.5x as I was weary of the sheer number of samples leading to overfitting and potential noise. First a test run with my Coptic samples to see if the model is viable:

Target: Copt5_scaled
Distance: 2.6817% / 0.02681668 | ADC: 0.5x RC
70.2 AE
11.2 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
9.4 MAR_LN
9.2 Levant_Natufian

Target: Egyptian:Coptic_Egyptian
Distance: 1.6151% / 0.01615063 | ADC: 0.5x RC
80.8 AE
10.4 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
8.8 Levant_Natufian

Target: Copt4_scaled
Distance: 1.5490% / 0.01549015 | ADC: 0.5x RC
85.4 AE
10.2 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
3.8 Levant_Natufian
0.6 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N

Target: Copt3_scaled
Distance: 1.0187% / 0.01018653 | ADC: 0.5x RC
91.6 AE
8.4 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti

Target: Coptsudan_scaled
Distance: 1.2342% / 0.01234226 | ADC: 0.5x RC
87.6 AE
7.0 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
5.4 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N

Target: Nee4speed111_scaled
Distance: 1.9961% / 0.01996074 | ADC: 0.5x RC
91.8 AE
7.4 KEN_Pastoral_N_o
0.8 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti

Target: Copt2_scaled (Potential Armenian admix)
Distance: 1.9512% / 0.01951214 | ADC: 0.5x RC
80.8 AE
9.8 MAR_LN
5.2 RUS_Ust_Ishim
4.2 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti

As expected, the Copts seem like a pretty homogenous bunch, the only non-Egyptian affinity seems to be Natufian, Kulubnarti, KEN_Early_Pastoral_N & MAR_LN, with the potentially admixed Copt also having some Steppe.

Then a test run with other MENA populations to make sure this AE signal is due to actual Egyptian affinity:

Target: Saudi
Distance: 4.3715% / 0.04371520 | ADC: 0.5x RC
73.6 Levant_JOR_EBA
26.4 Levant_Natufian

Target: Lebanese_Christian
Distance: 1.0650% / 0.01065028 | ADC: 0.5x RC
39.4 Levant_LBN_Roman
16.0 Levant_LBN_MA
14.2 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
12.2 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
6.8 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1
6.0 ITA_Venosa_EMA
5.4 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res

Target: Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
Distance: 1.5272% / 0.01527173 | ADC: 0.5x RC
61.0 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
15.6 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
14.4 Levant_Abel_IA
9.0 Levant_LBN_MA

Target: Palestinian
Distance: 1.0180% / 0.01018039 | ADC: 0.5x RC
39.8 AE
32.8 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
13.2 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA_o
7.6 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
3.4 TUR_IA
1.6 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
1.0 IRN_HotuIIIb_Meso
0.6 RUS_Kostenki14

Model seems to work pretty well, Saudi's,Lebanese Christians & Palestinian_Beit_Sahour pick up no AE signal, its only the Palestinian sample which does and depending on what part of Palestine these samples come from, its very possible they have actual Egyptian ancestry.

Now I will run all of the Egyptian muslims samples on hand and see their results:

Target: Egyptian:Egypt9AQ177
Distance: 2.5084% / 0.02508390 | ADC: 0.5x RC
35.8 AE
22.8 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
18.0 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
15.6 Canary_Islands_Guanche
7.8 IRN_Wezmeh_N

Target: Egyptian:Egypt9AQ172
Distance: 2.5355% / 0.02535464 | ADC: 0.5x RC
52.8 AE
20.0 Canary_Islands_Guanche
19.2 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
8.0 IRN_Wezmeh_N

Target: Egyptian:Egypt8AT113
Distance: 3.1678% / 0.03167833 | ADC: 0.5x RC
70.4 AE
27.4 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
2.2 Canary_Islands_Guanche

Target: Egyptian:Egypt7AQ172
Distance: 2.6859% / 0.02685857 | ADC: 0.5x RC
59.2 AE
24.0 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
8.6 Canary_Islands_Guanche
6.0 BWA_Xaro_1400BP
2.2 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti

Target: Egyptian:Egypt5AQ172
Distance: 2.6431% / 0.02643111 | ADC: 0.5x RC
72.6 AE
17.2 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
6.8 PAK_Aligrama_IA
3.2 Canary_Islands_Guanche
0.2 RUS_Ust_Ishim

Target: Egyptian:Egypt3AQ172
Distance: 3.1971% / 0.03197142 | ADC: 0.5x RC
36.4 AE
34.4 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
16.2 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
13.0 Canary_Islands_Guanche

Target: Egyptian:Egypt22TD21
Distance: 1.5787% / 0.01578729 | ADC: 0.5x RC
59.8 AE
18.0 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
14.4 Canary_Islands_Guanche
7.8 PAK_Arkotkila_IA

Target: Egyptian:Egypt1AQ172
Distance: 2.3027% / 0.02302706 | ADC: 0.5x RC
77.2 AE
19.4 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
3.4 Canary_Islands_Guanche

Target: Egyptian:Egypt17AQ176
Distance: 1.6527% / 0.01652694 | ADC: 0.5x RC
38.8 AE
22.4 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
18.4 Canary_Islands_Guanche
15.6 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
4.0 PAK_Loebanr_IA
0.8 RUS_Ust_Ishim

Target: Egyptian:Egypt15AQ172
Distance: 2.6208% / 0.02620790 | ADC: 0.5x RC
42.6 AE
28.8 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
21.2 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
7.4 Canary_Islands_Guanche

Target: Egyptian:Egypt12AQ172
Distance: 2.5585% / 0.02558461 | ADC: 0.5x RC
38.8 AE
28.2 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
18.4 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
14.6 Canary_Islands_Guanche

Target: Egyptian:9AJ129
Distance: 2.4887% / 0.02488683 | ADC: 0.5x RC
80.4 AE
12.2 Iberia_Central_CA_Afr
7.4 COG_NgongoMbata_220BP

Target: Egyptian:8AJ136
Distance: 3.3539% / 0.03353860 | ADC: 0.5x RC
76.6 AE
23.4 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti

Target: Egyptian:8AJ129
Distance: 2.6861% / 0.02686093 | ADC: 0.5x RC
44.2 AE
23.2 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
15.8 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
10.4 Canary_Islands_Guanche
6.4 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic

Target: Egyptian:7AJ136
Distance: 3.1750% / 0.03175048 | ADC: 0.5x RC
61.8 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
24.4 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
13.4 Canary_Islands_Guanche
0.4 AE

Target: Egyptian:7AJ129
Distance: 3.6015% / 0.03601529 | ADC: 0.5x RC
39.6 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
36.6 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
19.0 AE
4.8 Canary_Islands_Guanche

Target: Egyptian:6AJ129
Distance: 2.3611% / 0.02361138 | ADC: 0.5x RC
95.6 AE
2.2 COG_NgongoMbata_220BP
2.2 RUS_Ust_Ishim

Target: Egyptian:5AJ137
Distance: 3.5261% / 0.03526139 | ADC: 0.5x RC
58.6 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
17.4 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
12.4 TUR_Kumtepe_N_low_res
11.6 Canary_Islands_Guanche

Target: Egyptian:5AJ136
Distance: 3.4323% / 0.03432290 | ADC: 0.5x RC
48.0 AE
19.6 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
18.8 Canary_Islands_Guanche
8.4 TUR_IA
5.2 PAK_Arkotkila_IA

Target: Egyptian:4AJ137
Distance: 2.6426% / 0.02642647 | ADC: 0.5x RC
35.4 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
27.8 AE
25.4 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
11.4 Canary_Islands_Guanche

Target: Egyptian:4AJ136
Distance: 2.6068% / 0.02606768 | ADC: 0.5x RC
78.8 AE
7.0 IRN_Wezmeh_N
6.4 Canary_Islands_Guanche
5.6 COG_NgongoMbata_220BP
2.2 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti

Target: Egyptian:3AJ137
Distance: 2.5839% / 0.02583938 | ADC: 0.5x RC
62.2 AE
13.8 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
12.4 Canary_Islands_Guanche
7.8 TUR_IA
3.8 IRN_Seh_Gabi_LN

Target: Egyptian:2AJ137
Distance: 2.7854% / 0.02785403 | ADC: 0.5x RC
72.4 AE
21.8 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
5.8 Canary_Islands_Guanche

Target: Egyptian:1AJ137
Distance: 2.2260% / 0.02226036 | ADC: 0.5x RC
44.6 AE
16.2 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
14.8 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
14.2 Canary_Islands_Guanche
10.2 UZB_Sappali_Tepe2_BA

Target: Egyptian:16AJ137
Distance: 2.2965% / 0.02296536 | ADC: 0.5x RC
42.2 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
22.8 Canary_Islands_Guanche
17.8 AE
17.2 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti

Target: Egyptian:15AJ137
Distance: 3.1474% / 0.03147438 | ADC: 0.5x RC
57.6 AE
23.2 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
11.6 Canary_Islands_Guanche
7.6 IRN_Wezmeh_N

Target: Egyptian:12AJ136
Distance: 2.4945% / 0.02494465 | ADC: 0.5x RC
45.2 AE
31.0 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
23.8 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti

Target: Egyptian:12AJ129
Distance: 3.0882% / 0.03088234 | ADC: 0.5x RC
48.4 AE
21.0 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
20.8 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
5.2 PAK_Barikot_MA
3.6 Canary_Islands_Guanche
1.0 RUS_Ust_Ishim

Target: Egyptian:10AJ137
Distance: 2.5813% / 0.02581286 | ADC: 0.5x RC
38.6 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
23.4 AE
21.4 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
16.6 Canary_Islands_Guanche

Target: Egyptian:10AJ136
Distance: 1.8574% / 0.01857415 | ADC: 0.5x RC
71.0 AE
14.6 Canary_Islands_Guanche
8.6 IRN_Wezmeh_N
3.2 CMR_Shum_Laka_3000BP
2.6 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti

The results are very heterogeneous, they range from Egyptian:6AJ129 scoring the highest AE affinity out of all my samples with perhaps the lowest East African I have seen in a modern Egyptian (basically needing no extra EA ancestry in addition to the AE one already baked in) to some of these samples scoring nothing at all. Also interesting to note is that with the Copts, it seems that any excess Taforalt affinity in addition to what is baked into the AE samples & the Kulubnarti ones is MAR_LN like, whereas the Egyptian muslims seem to consistently pick the Canary_Islands_Guanche every time. As Mnemonics said, these Canary Islanders do seem to have some sort of Eastern affinity, but its still odd that the Copts refuse to pick them up at all & instead prefer MAR_LN whereas none of the Egyptian muslim samples prefer MAR_LN. Perhaps its due to the West African ancestry in the Guanche's that is causing the difference?

The levantine affinity ranges from nothing to quite a significant chunk, I think this probably demonstrates more than anything that we need more modern Egyptian samples.

While I did run the Sudanese Copt average with the Egyptian copts, out of curiosity and to ensure nothing strange is going on with the run's I decided to run each of the individual samples excluding the one outlier labeled 483

Target: Sudanese_Copt:485
Distance: 2.6208% / 0.02620835 | ADC: 0.5x RC
86.4 AE
10.6 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
3.0 Iberia_Central_CA_Afr

Target: Sudanese_Copt:452
Distance: 2.3573% / 0.02357311 | ADC: 0.5x RC
87.6 AE
7.2 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
5.2 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N

Target: Sudanese_Copt:451
Distance: 2.0490% / 0.02048989 | ADC: 0.5x RC
85.8 AE
5.8 Levant_Natufian
4.6 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N
3.8 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti

Target: Sudanese_Copt:450
Distance: 2.4984% / 0.02498359 | ADC: 0.5x RC
88.2 AE
11.8 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N

Target: Sudanese_Copt:443
Distance: 1.7959% / 0.01795891 | ADC: 0.5x RC
80.2 AE
10.2 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N
9.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: Sudanese_Copt:442
Distance: 1.9226% / 0.01922556 | ADC: 0.5x RC
93.4 AE
6.6 KEN_LuKENHill_3500BP

Target: Sudanese_Copt:441
Distance: 2.1312% / 0.02131198 | ADC: 0.5x RC
79.6 AE
8.6 ITA_Sardinia_C_o
6.4 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N
5.4 Levant_Natufian

Target: Sudanese_Copt:319
Distance: 1.4922% / 0.01492174 | ADC: 0.5x RC
76.8 AE
23.2 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti

Target: Sudanese_Copt:318
Distance: 2.7665% / 0.02766501 | ADC: 0.5x RC
52.2 AE
34.4 Levant_Yehud_IBA
13.4 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti

Target: Sudanese_Copt:316
Distance: 1.7199% / 0.01719938 | ADC: 0.5x RC
77.4 AE
12.0 MAR_LN
6.4 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N
4.2 MNG_Salkhit_UP

Target: Sudanese_Copt:315
Distance: 2.2446% / 0.02244624 | ADC: 0.5x RC
77.8 AE
13.0 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
7.2 Levant_Natufian
2.0 Canary_Islands_Guanche

They seem to broadly agree with the Egyptian copts.

nee4speed111
01-18-2022, 06:31 AM
So in the search for some more Egyptian genomes I managed to stumble upon https://www.egyptian-genome.org/

I'm not sure how many samples there are and if the data is public access, but it would be good if we could get their G25 coordinates.

altvred
01-18-2022, 08:07 AM
So in the search for some more Egyptian genomes I managed to stumble upon https://www.egyptian-genome.org/

I'm not sure how many samples there are and if the data is public access, but it would be good if we could get their G25 coordinates.

I've encountered this project back when I read the the paper (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-17964-1.epdf?sharing_token=uye3-9O0IGiHzK0uQw7GwNRgN0jAjWel9jnR3ZoTv0OlY0Q26wQodk_ 69evxSE9yjIoCgi3Fs9gIJ7-kKVtFKKrdu80FfSY9UuTaZmqr0JfEDb2c5cqP7eOFQpfqmogqt fFmYamaoKcnjN2lJO1BkG3h0510lftOjxsLD9vQn6Q%3D) it was attached to. Unfortunately, individual genotype data was deposited to the EGA, which means the data isn't publicly available to anyone outside academia.

https://i.imgur.com/W5s2deT.png

Gentica277282
01-18-2022, 08:07 AM
No its not super far. We cluster nicely with southern levantines and some Arabians.
I know some Egyptians Carry ibm admixture which drifts them a little closer to North west Africans but it seems Egyptians and Copts are still more related to levantines then to north west Africans for example

Gentica277282
01-18-2022, 08:13 AM
Tried various models to create a workable model that can pick up on non-Egyptian affinities, but they all seemed to be misfiring. So I decided to test the samples with all of the Ancient Averages on vahaduo, I also ran them on a distance of 0.5x as I was weary of the sheer number of samples leading to overfitting and potential noise. First a test run with my Coptic samples to see if the model is viable:

Target: Copt5_scaled
Distance: 2.6817% / 0.02681668 | ADC: 0.5x RC
70.2 AE
11.2 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
9.4 MAR_LN
9.2 Levant_Natufian

Target: Egyptian:Coptic_Egyptian
Distance: 1.6151% / 0.01615063 | ADC: 0.5x RC
80.8 AE
10.4 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
8.8 Levant_Natufian

Target: Copt4_scaled
Distance: 1.5490% / 0.01549015 | ADC: 0.5x RC
85.4 AE
10.2 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
3.8 Levant_Natufian
0.6 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N

Target: Copt3_scaled
Distance: 1.0187% / 0.01018653 | ADC: 0.5x RC
91.6 AE
8.4 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti

Target: Coptsudan_scaled
Distance: 1.2342% / 0.01234226 | ADC: 0.5x RC
87.6 AE
7.0 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
5.4 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N

Target: Nee4speed111_scaled
Distance: 1.9961% / 0.01996074 | ADC: 0.5x RC
91.8 AE
7.4 KEN_Pastoral_N_o
0.8 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti

Target: Copt2_scaled (Potential Armenian admix)
Distance: 1.9512% / 0.01951214 | ADC: 0.5x RC
80.8 AE
9.8 MAR_LN
5.2 RUS_Ust_Ishim
4.2 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti

As expected, the Copts seem like a pretty homogenous bunch, the only non-Egyptian affinity seems to be Natufian, Kulubnarti, KEN_Early_Pastoral_N & MAR_LN, with the potentially admixed Copt also having some Steppe.

Then a test run with other MENA populations to make sure this AE signal is due to actual Egyptian affinity:

Target: Saudi
Distance: 4.3715% / 0.04371520 | ADC: 0.5x RC
73.6 Levant_JOR_EBA
26.4 Levant_Natufian

Target: Lebanese_Christian
Distance: 1.0650% / 0.01065028 | ADC: 0.5x RC
39.4 Levant_LBN_Roman
16.0 Levant_LBN_MA
14.2 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
12.2 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
6.8 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1
6.0 ITA_Venosa_EMA
5.4 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res

Target: Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
Distance: 1.5272% / 0.01527173 | ADC: 0.5x RC
61.0 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
15.6 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
14.4 Levant_Abel_IA
9.0 Levant_LBN_MA

Target: Palestinian
Distance: 1.0180% / 0.01018039 | ADC: 0.5x RC
39.8 AE
32.8 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
13.2 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA_o
7.6 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
3.4 TUR_IA
1.6 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
1.0 IRN_HotuIIIb_Meso
0.6 RUS_Kostenki14

Model seems to work pretty well, Saudi's,Lebanese Christians & Palestinian_Beit_Sahour pick up no AE signal, its only the Palestinian sample which does and depending on what part of Palestine these samples come from, its very possible they have actual Egyptian ancestry.

Now I will run all of the Egyptian muslims samples on hand and see their results:

Target: Egyptian:Egypt9AQ177
Distance: 2.5084% / 0.02508390 | ADC: 0.5x RC
35.8 AE
22.8 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
18.0 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
15.6 Canary_Islands_Guanche
7.8 IRN_Wezmeh_N

Target: Egyptian:Egypt9AQ172
Distance: 2.5355% / 0.02535464 | ADC: 0.5x RC
52.8 AE
20.0 Canary_Islands_Guanche
19.2 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
8.0 IRN_Wezmeh_N

Target: Egyptian:Egypt8AT113
Distance: 3.1678% / 0.03167833 | ADC: 0.5x RC
70.4 AE
27.4 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
2.2 Canary_Islands_Guanche

Target: Egyptian:Egypt7AQ172
Distance: 2.6859% / 0.02685857 | ADC: 0.5x RC
59.2 AE
24.0 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
8.6 Canary_Islands_Guanche
6.0 BWA_Xaro_1400BP
2.2 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti

Target: Egyptian:Egypt5AQ172
Distance: 2.6431% / 0.02643111 | ADC: 0.5x RC
72.6 AE
17.2 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
6.8 PAK_Aligrama_IA
3.2 Canary_Islands_Guanche
0.2 RUS_Ust_Ishim

Target: Egyptian:Egypt3AQ172
Distance: 3.1971% / 0.03197142 | ADC: 0.5x RC
36.4 AE
34.4 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
16.2 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
13.0 Canary_Islands_Guanche

Target: Egyptian:Egypt22TD21
Distance: 1.5787% / 0.01578729 | ADC: 0.5x RC
59.8 AE
18.0 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
14.4 Canary_Islands_Guanche
7.8 PAK_Arkotkila_IA

Target: Egyptian:Egypt1AQ172
Distance: 2.3027% / 0.02302706 | ADC: 0.5x RC
77.2 AE
19.4 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
3.4 Canary_Islands_Guanche

Target: Egyptian:Egypt17AQ176
Distance: 1.6527% / 0.01652694 | ADC: 0.5x RC
38.8 AE
22.4 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
18.4 Canary_Islands_Guanche
15.6 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
4.0 PAK_Loebanr_IA
0.8 RUS_Ust_Ishim

Target: Egyptian:Egypt15AQ172
Distance: 2.6208% / 0.02620790 | ADC: 0.5x RC
42.6 AE
28.8 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
21.2 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
7.4 Canary_Islands_Guanche

Target: Egyptian:Egypt12AQ172
Distance: 2.5585% / 0.02558461 | ADC: 0.5x RC
38.8 AE
28.2 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
18.4 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
14.6 Canary_Islands_Guanche

Target: Egyptian:9AJ129
Distance: 2.4887% / 0.02488683 | ADC: 0.5x RC
80.4 AE
12.2 Iberia_Central_CA_Afr
7.4 COG_NgongoMbata_220BP

Target: Egyptian:8AJ136
Distance: 3.3539% / 0.03353860 | ADC: 0.5x RC
76.6 AE
23.4 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti

Target: Egyptian:8AJ129
Distance: 2.6861% / 0.02686093 | ADC: 0.5x RC
44.2 AE
23.2 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
15.8 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
10.4 Canary_Islands_Guanche
6.4 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic

Target: Egyptian:7AJ136
Distance: 3.1750% / 0.03175048 | ADC: 0.5x RC
61.8 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
24.4 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
13.4 Canary_Islands_Guanche
0.4 AE

Target: Egyptian:7AJ129
Distance: 3.6015% / 0.03601529 | ADC: 0.5x RC
39.6 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
36.6 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
19.0 AE
4.8 Canary_Islands_Guanche

Target: Egyptian:6AJ129
Distance: 2.3611% / 0.02361138 | ADC: 0.5x RC
95.6 AE
2.2 COG_NgongoMbata_220BP
2.2 RUS_Ust_Ishim

Target: Egyptian:5AJ137
Distance: 3.5261% / 0.03526139 | ADC: 0.5x RC
58.6 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
17.4 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
12.4 TUR_Kumtepe_N_low_res
11.6 Canary_Islands_Guanche

Target: Egyptian:5AJ136
Distance: 3.4323% / 0.03432290 | ADC: 0.5x RC
48.0 AE
19.6 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
18.8 Canary_Islands_Guanche
8.4 TUR_IA
5.2 PAK_Arkotkila_IA

Target: Egyptian:4AJ137
Distance: 2.6426% / 0.02642647 | ADC: 0.5x RC
35.4 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
27.8 AE
25.4 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
11.4 Canary_Islands_Guanche

Target: Egyptian:4AJ136
Distance: 2.6068% / 0.02606768 | ADC: 0.5x RC
78.8 AE
7.0 IRN_Wezmeh_N
6.4 Canary_Islands_Guanche
5.6 COG_NgongoMbata_220BP
2.2 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti

Target: Egyptian:3AJ137
Distance: 2.5839% / 0.02583938 | ADC: 0.5x RC
62.2 AE
13.8 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
12.4 Canary_Islands_Guanche
7.8 TUR_IA
3.8 IRN_Seh_Gabi_LN

Target: Egyptian:2AJ137
Distance: 2.7854% / 0.02785403 | ADC: 0.5x RC
72.4 AE
21.8 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
5.8 Canary_Islands_Guanche

Target: Egyptian:1AJ137
Distance: 2.2260% / 0.02226036 | ADC: 0.5x RC
44.6 AE
16.2 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
14.8 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
14.2 Canary_Islands_Guanche
10.2 UZB_Sappali_Tepe2_BA

Target: Egyptian:16AJ137
Distance: 2.2965% / 0.02296536 | ADC: 0.5x RC
42.2 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
22.8 Canary_Islands_Guanche
17.8 AE
17.2 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti

Target: Egyptian:15AJ137
Distance: 3.1474% / 0.03147438 | ADC: 0.5x RC
57.6 AE
23.2 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
11.6 Canary_Islands_Guanche
7.6 IRN_Wezmeh_N

Target: Egyptian:12AJ136
Distance: 2.4945% / 0.02494465 | ADC: 0.5x RC
45.2 AE
31.0 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
23.8 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti

Target: Egyptian:12AJ129
Distance: 3.0882% / 0.03088234 | ADC: 0.5x RC
48.4 AE
21.0 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
20.8 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
5.2 PAK_Barikot_MA
3.6 Canary_Islands_Guanche
1.0 RUS_Ust_Ishim

Target: Egyptian:10AJ137
Distance: 2.5813% / 0.02581286 | ADC: 0.5x RC
38.6 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
23.4 AE
21.4 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
16.6 Canary_Islands_Guanche

Target: Egyptian:10AJ136
Distance: 1.8574% / 0.01857415 | ADC: 0.5x RC
71.0 AE
14.6 Canary_Islands_Guanche
8.6 IRN_Wezmeh_N
3.2 CMR_Shum_Laka_3000BP
2.6 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti

The results are very heterogeneous, they range from Egyptian:6AJ129 scoring the highest AE affinity out of all my samples with perhaps the lowest East African I have seen in a modern Egyptian (basically needing no extra EA ancestry in addition to the AE one already baked in) to some of these samples scoring nothing at all. Also interesting to note is that with the Copts, it seems that any excess Taforalt affinity in addition to what is baked into the AE samples & the Kulubnarti ones is MAR_LN like, whereas the Egyptian muslims seem to consistently pick the Canary_Islands_Guanche every time. As Mnemonics said, these Canary Islanders do seem to have some sort of Eastern affinity, but its still odd that the Copts refuse to pick them up at all & instead prefer MAR_LN whereas none of the Egyptian muslim samples prefer MAR_LN. Perhaps its due to the West African ancestry in the Guanche's that is causing the difference?

The levantine affinity ranges from nothing to quite a significant chunk, I think this probably demonstrates more than anything that we need more modern Egyptian samples.

While I did run the Sudanese Copt average with the Egyptian copts, out of curiosity and to ensure nothing strange is going on with the run's I decided to run each of the individual samples excluding the one outlier labeled 483

Target: Sudanese_Copt:485
Distance: 2.6208% / 0.02620835 | ADC: 0.5x RC
86.4 AE
10.6 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
3.0 Iberia_Central_CA_Afr

Target: Sudanese_Copt:452
Distance: 2.3573% / 0.02357311 | ADC: 0.5x RC
87.6 AE
7.2 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
5.2 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N

Target: Sudanese_Copt:451
Distance: 2.0490% / 0.02048989 | ADC: 0.5x RC
85.8 AE
5.8 Levant_Natufian
4.6 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N
3.8 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti

Target: Sudanese_Copt:450
Distance: 2.4984% / 0.02498359 | ADC: 0.5x RC
88.2 AE
11.8 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N

Target: Sudanese_Copt:443
Distance: 1.7959% / 0.01795891 | ADC: 0.5x RC
80.2 AE
10.2 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N
9.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: Sudanese_Copt:442
Distance: 1.9226% / 0.01922556 | ADC: 0.5x RC
93.4 AE
6.6 KEN_LuKENHill_3500BP

Target: Sudanese_Copt:441
Distance: 2.1312% / 0.02131198 | ADC: 0.5x RC
79.6 AE
8.6 ITA_Sardinia_C_o
6.4 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N
5.4 Levant_Natufian

Target: Sudanese_Copt:319
Distance: 1.4922% / 0.01492174 | ADC: 0.5x RC
76.8 AE
23.2 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti

Target: Sudanese_Copt:318
Distance: 2.7665% / 0.02766501 | ADC: 0.5x RC
52.2 AE
34.4 Levant_Yehud_IBA
13.4 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti

Target: Sudanese_Copt:316
Distance: 1.7199% / 0.01719938 | ADC: 0.5x RC
77.4 AE
12.0 MAR_LN
6.4 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N
4.2 MNG_Salkhit_UP

Target: Sudanese_Copt:315
Distance: 2.2446% / 0.02244624 | ADC: 0.5x RC
77.8 AE
13.0 Sudan_MA_Kulubnarti
7.2 Levant_Natufian
2.0 Canary_Islands_Guanche

They seem to broadly agree with the Egyptian copts.

You should avoid using mar ln as it’s heavily mixed with Anatolian admixture and the reason Egyptians score Canary Islands is because of extra ibm admixture they carry nothing to do with the Yoruba component. I don’t understand why you would use a late Neolithic sample with a sample like Guanches which is very similar to modern north west Africans and then on top of that you are adding distance show us the results without adding distance

nee4speed111
01-18-2022, 08:16 AM
You should avoid using mar ln as it’s heavily mixed with Anatolian admixture and the reason Egyptians score Canary Islands is because of extra ibm admixture they carry nothing to do with the Yoruba component. I don’t understand why you would use a late Neolithic sample with a sample like Guanches which is very similar to modern north west Africans

I didn't pick the sample, I ran the populations on every single Ancient Average on vahaduo and let it decide which populations it would pick up. The origins of the extra IBM compared to the current AE samples is what I was trying to investigate, in addition to the other distinctions between the Egyptian samples on vahaduo and the AE's.

I added the distance simply because of the sheer amount of samples in the ancient average on vahaduo, as I stated in the first paragraph I was weary of the sheer number of samples leading to overfitting and potential noise.

nee4speed111
01-18-2022, 09:45 AM
I know some Egyptians Carry ibm admixture which drifts them a little closer to North west Africans but it seems Egyptians and Copts are still more related to levantines then to north west Africans for example


No its not super far. We cluster nicely with southern levantines and some Arabians.

Closest Modern pop's to the Coptic Average

Distance to: COPTIC_AVERAGE
0.04567897 BedouinA
0.04585385 Yemenite_Dhamar
0.04803765 Egyptian
0.05080865 Yemenite_Amran
0.05609280 Yemenite_Ma'rib
0.05612506 Yemenite_Al_Bayda
0.06001277 Palestinian
0.06152285 Tunisian_Rbaya
0.06382895 Yemenite_Jew
0.06470112 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
0.06618554 Jordanian
0.06630283 BedouinB
0.07284285 Saudi
0.07750094 Yemenite_Mahra
0.08259690 Samaritan
0.08270307 Tunisian_Jew
0.08430434 Libyan_Jew
0.08583956 Libyan
0.09275501 Berber_Tunisia_Sen
0.09299297 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.09348732 Karaite_Egypt
0.09480825 Lebanese_Muslim
0.09492303 Lebanese_Christian
0.09536814 Syrian
0.09990025 Lebanese_Druze
0.09996683 Iraqi
0.10146856 Moroccan_Jew
0.10199882 Tunisian_Berber_Zraoua
0.10208520 Tunisian
0.10255451 Druze
0.10313168 Syrian_Jew
0.10648636 Tunisian_Douz
0.10665753 Romaniote_Jew
0.10926918 Sephardic_Jew
0.11037377 Tunisian_Berber_Tamezret
0.11073932 Cypriot
0.11139133 Iraqi_Jew
0.11324514 Italian_Jew
0.11437671 Moroccan_North
0.11459300 Tunisian_Berber_Matmata
0.11550160 Kurdish_Jew
0.11706194 Berber_Tunisia_Chen
0.12084693 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.12223540 Iranian_Jew
0.12265707 Sephardic_Jew_o
0.12520483 Algerian
0.12640493 Maltese
0.12773226 Mountain_Jew
0.12916108 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.12921507 Greek_Dodecanese
0.13058934 Georgian_Jew
0.13096161 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.13161683 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.13235189 Assyrian
0.13278389 Greek_Kos
0.13333982 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.13370608 Ashkenazi_Russia
0.13396146 Italian_Calabria
0.13468647 Mountain_Jew_o
0.13507261 Mozabite
0.13595116 Greek_Cappadocia
0.13651839 Sicilian_East
0.13659668 Greek_Crete
0.13755973 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.13812247 Italian_Campania
0.13829374 Moroccan
0.13885214 Sicilian_West
0.13910463 Armenian_Erzurum
0.13924337 Armenian
0.13984324 Bukharian_Jew
0.14148262 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr_o
0.14239882 Italian_Basilicata
0.14438762 Italian_Apulia
0.14672708 Turkish_Kayseri
0.14769500 Georgian_Meskheti
0.14779024 Turkish_Adana
0.14804489 Turkish_Trabzon
0.14935244 Italian_Abruzzo
0.14998992 Greek_Laconia
0.15020331 Greek_Trabzon
0.15131046 Turkish_East
0.15151913 Greek_Izmir
0.15202894 Italian_Molise
0.15207381 Turkish_Central
0.15229367 Ezid
0.15388277 Azerbaijani_Turkey
0.15421163 Italian_Lazio
0.15452621 Azerbaijani
0.15453940 Iranian_Lor
0.15486070 Kurdish
0.15692459 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.15734372 Berber_MAR_ERR
0.15837397 Udi
0.15864388 Saharawi
0.15881973 Greek_Peloponnese
0.15936271 Italian_Marche
0.16026255 Spanish_Canarias
0.16031684 Iranian_Persian_Shiraz
0.16053670 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.16095674 Italian_Umbriai

Gentica277282
01-18-2022, 10:36 AM
Closest Modern pop's to the Coptic Average

Distance to: COPTIC_AVERAGE
0.04567897 BedouinA
0.04585385 Yemenite_Dhamar
0.04803765 Egyptian
0.05080865 Yemenite_Amran
0.05609280 Yemenite_Ma'rib
0.05612506 Yemenite_Al_Bayda
0.06001277 Palestinian
0.06152285 Tunisian_Rbaya
0.06382895 Yemenite_Jew
0.06470112 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
0.06618554 Jordanian
0.06630283 BedouinB
0.07284285 Saudi
0.07750094 Yemenite_Mahra
0.08259690 Samaritan
0.08270307 Tunisian_Jew
0.08430434 Libyan_Jew
0.08583956 Libyan
0.09275501 Berber_Tunisia_Sen
0.09299297 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.09348732 Karaite_Egypt
0.09480825 Lebanese_Muslim
0.09492303 Lebanese_Christian
0.09536814 Syrian
0.09990025 Lebanese_Druze
0.09996683 Iraqi
0.10146856 Moroccan_Jew
0.10199882 Tunisian_Berber_Zraoua
0.10208520 Tunisian
0.10255451 Druze
0.10313168 Syrian_Jew
0.10648636 Tunisian_Douz
0.10665753 Romaniote_Jew
0.10926918 Sephardic_Jew
0.11037377 Tunisian_Berber_Tamezret
0.11073932 Cypriot
0.11139133 Iraqi_Jew
0.11324514 Italian_Jew
0.11437671 Moroccan_North
0.11459300 Tunisian_Berber_Matmata
0.11550160 Kurdish_Jew
0.11706194 Berber_Tunisia_Chen
0.12084693 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.12223540 Iranian_Jew
0.12265707 Sephardic_Jew_o
0.12520483 Algerian
0.12640493 Maltese
0.12773226 Mountain_Jew
0.12916108 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.12921507 Greek_Dodecanese
0.13058934 Georgian_Jew
0.13096161 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.13161683 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.13235189 Assyrian
0.13278389 Greek_Kos
0.13333982 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.13370608 Ashkenazi_Russia
0.13396146 Italian_Calabria
0.13468647 Mountain_Jew_o
0.13507261 Mozabite
0.13595116 Greek_Cappadocia
0.13651839 Sicilian_East
0.13659668 Greek_Crete
0.13755973 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.13812247 Italian_Campania
0.13829374 Moroccan
0.13885214 Sicilian_West
0.13910463 Armenian_Erzurum
0.13924337 Armenian
0.13984324 Bukharian_Jew
0.14148262 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr_o
0.14239882 Italian_Basilicata
0.14438762 Italian_Apulia
0.14672708 Turkish_Kayseri
0.14769500 Georgian_Meskheti
0.14779024 Turkish_Adana
0.14804489 Turkish_Trabzon
0.14935244 Italian_Abruzzo
0.14998992 Greek_Laconia
0.15020331 Greek_Trabzon
0.15131046 Turkish_East
0.15151913 Greek_Izmir
0.15202894 Italian_Molise
0.15207381 Turkish_Central
0.15229367 Ezid
0.15388277 Azerbaijani_Turkey
0.15421163 Italian_Lazio
0.15452621 Azerbaijani
0.15453940 Iranian_Lor
0.15486070 Kurdish
0.15692459 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.15734372 Berber_MAR_ERR
0.15837397 Udi
0.15864388 Saharawi
0.15881973 Greek_Peloponnese
0.15936271 Italian_Marche
0.16026255 Spanish_Canarias
0.16031684 Iranian_Persian_Shiraz
0.16053670 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.16095674 Italian_Umbriai

Very close to those Middle Eastern populations. I think you drift further away from north west African then Muslim Egyptians, maybe this is due to less ibm related ancestry

Ajeje Brazorf
01-18-2022, 12:27 PM
Average consisting of the 3 samples from Egypt + SFI-43.


Egyptian_Ancient_proxy,0.04496,0.14928275,-0.0482715,-0.11401975,-0.000154,-0.05068825,-0.016098,-0.0047885,0.0474495,0.00560375,0.012098,-0.01536125,0.031739,-0.003303,-0.0003055,-0.00427625,-0.00997425,-0.00015825,-0.003708,0.01106775,0.00539675,0.00265875,-0.00209525,0.00457875,-0.0025145

Closest individuals


Distance to: Egyptian_Ancient_proxy
0.02340962 Copt3_scaled
0.02441176 EGY_Late_Period:JK2911
0.02554559 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian:SFI-43
0.02661113 EGY_Late_Period:JK2134
0.03078288 Sudanese_Copt:451
0.03078707 nee4speed111_scaled
0.03179397 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o:3DT26

Ancestry components

https://i.imgur.com/UkomyQc.png

PCA

https://i.imgur.com/QmBYqPO.png

alejandromb92
01-18-2022, 12:51 PM
Average consisting of the 3 samples from Egypt + SFI-43.


Egyptian_Ancient_proxy,0.04496,0.14928275,-0.0482715,-0.11401975,-0.000154,-0.05068825,-0.016098,-0.0047885,0.0474495,0.00560375,0.012098,-0.01536125,0.031739,-0.003303,-0.0003055,-0.00427625,-0.00997425,-0.00015825,-0.003708,0.01106775,0.00539675,0.00265875,-0.00209525,0.00457875,-0.0025145

Closest individuals


Distance to: Egyptian_Ancient_proxy
0.02340962 Copt3_scaled
0.02441176 EGY_Late_Period:JK2911
0.02554559 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian:SFI-43
0.02661113 EGY_Late_Period:JK2134
0.03078288 Sudanese_Copt:451
0.03078707 nee4speed111_scaled
0.03179397 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o:3DT26

Ancestry components

https://i.imgur.com/UkomyQc.png

PCA

https://i.imgur.com/QmBYqPO.png

Target: Egyptian_Ancient_proxy
Distance: 4.4435% / 0.04443475
53.6 Natufian
27.8 Anatolian_Neolithic_Farmer
8.6 Caucasian_Hunter-Gatherer
8.0 Iranian_Neolithic
2.0 Iberomaurusian

They were basically near 0% in SSA.

Ajeje Brazorf
01-18-2022, 01:38 PM
Target: Egyptian_Ancient_proxy
Distance: 4.4435% / 0.04443475
53.6 Natufian
27.8 Anatolian_Neolithic_Farmer
8.6 Caucasian_Hunter-Gatherer
8.0 Iranian_Neolithic
2.0 Iberomaurusian

They were basically near 0% in SSA.

5.8% SSA if you exclude Taforalt and Natufian which have SSA-related ancestry. I expect Upper Egyptians to have a bit more though.

Gentica277282
01-18-2022, 01:59 PM
Deleted

alejandromb92
01-18-2022, 05:18 PM
5.8% SSA if you exclude Taforalt and Natufian which have SSA-related ancestry. I expect Upper Egyptians to have a bit more though.

Target: Egyptian_Ancient_proxy
Distance: 11.3957% / 0.11395689
71.0 Anatolian_Neolithic_Farmer
24.0 Iranian_Neolithic
4.4 Later_Stone_Age_African_Hunter-Gatherer
0.6 Jomon_Hunter-Gatherer

4.4% with my model, with an absurd distance. I think they were nearly 0% in SSA and present modern SSA admixture may be due slavery trade most likely in the Islamic Period.

Ajeje Brazorf
01-18-2022, 05:35 PM
Target: Egyptian_Ancient_proxy
Distance: 11.3957% / 0.11395689
71.0 Anatolian_Neolithic_Farmer
24.0 Iranian_Neolithic
4.4 Later_Stone_Age_African_Hunter-Gatherer
0.6 Jomon_Hunter-Gatherer

4.4% with my model, with an absurd distance. I think they were nearly 0% in SSA and present modern SSA admixture may be due slavery trade most likely in the Islamic Period.

The distance is absurd because you didn't include a Middle Eastern component. I find it impossible that they will be 0% SSA. No population in North Africa has ever been 0% SSA.

Northwest Africa has non-Taforalt SSA from at least the Bronze Age, and although it was of a different type than today and there have been recent successive waves, it implies that its presence should not be solely traceable to African slaves during the Islamic period. Now, there are several factors that have contributed to the formation of modern-day Muslim Egyptians, not only SSA of Western and Eastern extraction, but also Northwest Africans and Levantines (see for example the substantial increase in Iran_N).

drobbah
01-18-2022, 06:08 PM
Target: Egyptian_Ancient_proxy
Distance: 11.3957% / 0.11395689
71.0 Anatolian_Neolithic_Farmer
24.0 Iranian_Neolithic
4.4 Later_Stone_Age_African_Hunter-Gatherer
0.6 Jomon_Hunter-Gatherer

4.4% with my model, with an absurd distance. I think they were nearly 0% in SSA and present modern SSA admixture may be due slavery trade most likely in the Islamic Period.

Ofcourse itís an absurd distance, you didnít even add the Natufians or Taforalt.NE Africa was dominated by Natufian-like ancestry which is why you can find Cushitic Early Pastoralists in Kenya being~50% Natufian while being heavily admixed with local East African HGs (~25%Mota) this meant that their ancestors prior to leaving Egypt/Sudan was ~70-75% Natufian-like.Both Natufians & Taforalt have significant African ANA ancestryÖ.while the Egyptian Beirut sample,the England Near Eastern Roman outlier,Hellenistic Egyptian sample and the Copts also have additional Dinka/Sudanese-like ancestry probably from an ancient Cushitic source from Lower Nubia & Upper Egypt (C-Group,very early Kerma and Pan-Grave cultures)

alejandromb92
01-18-2022, 06:11 PM
The distance is absurd because you didn't include a Middle Eastern component. I find it impossible that they will be 0% SSA. No population in North Africa has ever been 0% SSA.

Northwest Africa has non-Taforalt SSA from at least the Bronze Age, and although it was of a different type than today and there have been recent successive waves, it implies that its presence should not be solely traceable to African slaves during the Islamic period. Now, there are several factors that have contributed to the formation of modern-day Muslim Egyptians, not only SSA of Western and Eastern extraction, but also Northwest Africans and Levantines (see for example the substantial increase in Iran_N).

As far as i know, natufian has nothing of SSA, and that's actually the main ancient component of the levantines, i understood that you said the had ssa-like component so i took it away. With Natufian, it scores 0% SSA.

alejandromb92
01-18-2022, 06:12 PM
Ofcourse it’s an absurd distance, you didn’t even add the Natufians or Taforalt.NE Africa was dominated by Natufian-like ancestry which is why you can find Cushitic Early Pastoralists in Kenya being~50% Natufian while being heavily admixed with local East African HGs (~25%Mota) this meant that their ancestors prior to leaving Egypt/Sudan was ~70-75% Natufian-like.Both Natufians & Taforalt have significant African ANA ancestry….while the Egyptian Beirut sample,the England Near Eastern Roman outlier,Hellenistic Egyptian sample and the Copts also have additional Dinka/Sudanese-like ancestry probably from an ancient Cushitic source from Lower Nubia & Upper Egypt (C-Group,very early Kerma and Pan-Grave cultures)

I did in the first run, read all conversation and you'll understand why i did that.

drobbah
01-18-2022, 06:38 PM
I did in the first run, read all conversation and you'll understand why i did that.
Ancient Egyptians and Copts carry indigenous non-West Eurasian ancestry and this is an objective fact that can't be denied.If the Ancient Egyptians didn't carry ANA (Ancient North Africa) or AEA (Ancient Eastern African/Saharan) then they wouldn't be getting any Ken_Early_Pastoral or Taforalt in their runs.Even Levant PPNB carries ANA ancestry....


Target: Copt1_scaled
Distance: 3.8762% / 0.03876200
69.2 Levant_PPNB
14.0 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N
8.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
7.4 GEO_CHG
1.0 MAR_Taforalt
0.4 Dinka

Target: Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian:SFI-43
Distance: 3.3082% / 0.03308174
72.2 Levant_PPNB
9.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
9.4 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N
7.6 GEO_CHG
1.2 MAR_Taforalt

Target: England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
Distance: 3.3237% / 0.03323667
71.0 Levant_PPNB
11.8 GEO_CHG
10.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
6.0 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N
0.6 MAR_Taforalt

Target: EGY_Late_Period
Distance: 3.2857% / 0.03285669
74.8 Levant_PPNB
8.8 GEO_CHG
8.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
5.8 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N
2.4 MAR_Taforalt


Here's a Natufian component without the ANA & minor Mota affinities:

Target: Levant_PPNB
Distance: 3.1257% / 0.03125695
45.6 Proto-Natufian_(simulated)
45.4 TUR_Barcin_N
9.0 ANA_(simulated)

Check any PCA plot as well...if Ancient Egyptians were 100% West Eurasian they wouldn't be plotting the way they do

Gentica277282
01-18-2022, 07:15 PM
Ancient Egyptians and Copts carry indigenous non-West Eurasian ancestry and this is an objective fact that can't be denied.If the Ancient Egyptians didn't carry ANA (Ancient North Africa) or AEA (Ancient Eastern African/Saharan) then they wouldn't be getting any Ken_Early_Pastoral or Taforalt in their runs.Even Levant PPNB carries ANA ancestry....


Target: Copt1_scaled
Distance: 3.8762% / 0.03876200
69.2 Levant_PPNB
14.0 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N
8.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
7.4 GEO_CHG
1.0 MAR_Taforalt
0.4 Dinka

Target: Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian:SFI-43
Distance: 3.3082% / 0.03308174
72.2 Levant_PPNB
9.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
9.4 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N
7.6 GEO_CHG
1.2 MAR_Taforalt

Target: England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
Distance: 3.3237% / 0.03323667
71.0 Levant_PPNB
11.8 GEO_CHG
10.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
6.0 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N
0.6 MAR_Taforalt

Target: EGY_Late_Period
Distance: 3.2857% / 0.03285669
74.8 Levant_PPNB
8.8 GEO_CHG
8.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
5.8 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N
2.4 MAR_Taforalt


Here's a Natufian component without the ANA & minor Mota affinities:

Target: Levant_PPNB
Distance: 3.1257% / 0.03125695
45.6 Proto-Natufian_(simulated)
45.4 TUR_Barcin_N
9.0 ANA_(simulated)

Check any PCA plot as well...if Ancient Egyptians were 100% West Eurasian they wouldn't be plotting the way they do
If they had this component then they wouldn’t plot so closely to the Levantine populations so they are a mostly western Eurasian group. Take northern western Africans for example what drifts them away is ibm and it drifts them away by quiet a bit, Egyptians are much closer to Middle Easterners then northern western Africans even ones with Arabian ancestry

drobbah
01-18-2022, 07:25 PM
If they had this component then they wouldn’t plot so closely to the Levantine populations so they are a mostly western Eurasian group. Take northern western Africans for example what drifts them away is ibm and it drifts them away by quiet a bit, Egyptians are much closer to Middle Easterners then northern western Africans even ones with Arabian ancestry
They plot closely because they both share Natufian,PPNB and Iranian Neolithic ancestry..what drifts the Egyptians towards North Africans/Africans is their higher ANA and their AEA ancestry.The Arabian groups they are closest to are Horner/Bantu admixed Yemenis for crying out loud.They are not a 100% West Eurasian population as Alejandro claims


Egyptians are much closer to Middle Easterners then northern western Africans even ones with Arabian ancestry
NW Africans have much higher ANA ancestry due to being 30-40% IBM with additional Yoruba/West African admixture and lack indigenous NE African ancestry.This is what ultimately drifts them apart from the Egyptians

Gentica277282
01-18-2022, 07:26 PM
Ancient Egyptians and Copts carry indigenous non-West Eurasian ancestry and this is an objective fact that can't be denied.If the Ancient Egyptians didn't carry ANA (Ancient North Africa) or AEA (Ancient Eastern African/Saharan) then they wouldn't be getting any Ken_Early_Pastoral or Taforalt in their runs.Even Levant PPNB carries ANA ancestry....


Target: Copt1_scaled
Distance: 3.8762% / 0.03876200
69.2 Levant_PPNB
14.0 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N
8.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
7.4 GEO_CHG
1.0 MAR_Taforalt
0.4 Dinka

Target: Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian:SFI-43
Distance: 3.3082% / 0.03308174
72.2 Levant_PPNB
9.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
9.4 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N
7.6 GEO_CHG
1.2 MAR_Taforalt

Target: England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
Distance: 3.3237% / 0.03323667
71.0 Levant_PPNB
11.8 GEO_CHG
10.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
6.0 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N
0.6 MAR_Taforalt

Target: EGY_Late_Period
Distance: 3.2857% / 0.03285669
74.8 Levant_PPNB
8.8 GEO_CHG
8.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
5.8 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N
2.4 MAR_Taforalt


Here's a Natufian component without the ANA & minor Mota affinities:

Target: Levant_PPNB
Distance: 3.1257% / 0.03125695
45.6 Proto-Natufian_(simulated)
45.4 TUR_Barcin_N
9.0 ANA_(simulated)

Check any PCA plot as well...if Ancient Egyptians were 100% West Eurasian they wouldn't be plotting the way they do

Between your levant ppnb run gives to much ana this is my friends simulated samples

Target: Levant_PPNB
Distance: 2.8367% / 0.02836653
50.6 Dzudzuana
40.0 Early_European_Farmer
5.6 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)
3.8 Iran_Neolithic

Kale
01-18-2022, 07:28 PM
The ancient Egyptian samples currently available can be modeled in condensed form as ~80% BA/IA Israel and ~20% of the North-African Bellbeaker outliers. The latter aren't perfect proxies but they deliver the extra ANA that the Egyptians need.

Levant_N themselves have ~10% ANA on top of what Barcin_N has which is probably ~6%.

Gentica277282
01-18-2022, 07:28 PM
They plot closely because they both share Natufian,PPNB and Iranian Neolithic ancestry..what drifts the Egyptians towards North Africans/Africans is their higher ANA and their AEA ancestry.The Arabian groups they are closest to are Horner/Bantu admixed Yemenis for crying out loud.They are not a 100% West Eurasian population as Alejandro claims


NW Africans have much higher ANA ancestry due to being 30-40% IBM with additional Yoruba/West African admixture and lack indigenous NE African ancestry.This is what ultimately drifts them apart from the Egyptians

Oh no I don’t agree with them being a 100 percent western Eurasian group

Gentica277282
01-18-2022, 07:32 PM
The ancient Egyptian samples currently available can be modeled in condensed form as ~80% BA/IA Israel and ~20% of the North-African Bellbeaker outliers. The latter aren't perfect proxies but they deliver the extra ANA that the Egyptians need.

Levant_N themselves have ~10% ANA on top of what Barcin_N has which is probably ~6%.

no way they have 10 percent thatís way too much max they have is 5 percent ana no more

Kale
01-18-2022, 07:49 PM
no way they have 10 percent thatís way too much max they have is 5 percent ana no more

Qpadm:

Levant_N
Anatolia_Barcin_N 75.1 +/- 1.5%
Iran_GanjDareh_N 6.5 +/- 1.5%
Taforalt 18.4 +/- 1.2%
Tail: 0.16
Snps: 756500
right = c('SouthAfrica_2000BP.SG', 'Congo_Mbuti.DG', 'Ethiopia_Mota_4500BP.SG', 'SierraLeone_Mende.DG', 'Anatolia_Boncuklu_N', 'Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG', 'CHG.SG', 'Italy_GrottaContinenza_HG.SG', 'RUS_Karelia_HG', 'Onge.DG', 'Mongolia_KutagOndor_N', 'Peru_Laramate_900BP')

Now if you figure Taforalt is a little over 50% ANA, then that's 10%.

drobbah
01-18-2022, 07:49 PM
The ancient Egyptian samples currently available can be modeled in condensed form as ~80% BA/IA Israel and ~20% of the North-African Bellbeaker outliers. The latter aren't perfect proxies but they deliver the extra ANA that the Egyptians need.

Levant_N themselves have ~10% ANA on top of what Barcin_N has which is probably ~6%.
Besides the Late_Period sample the other Egyptians including Nee4Speed sample need some form of minor Ken_Pastoral


Target: EGY_Late_Period
Distance: 2.5596% / 0.02559640
82.2 Levant_Megiddo
17.0 ITA_Sardinia_C_o
0.8 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N

Target: England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
Distance: 2.4303% / 0.02430314
87.0 Levant_Megiddo
9.0 ITA_Sardinia_C_o
4.0 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N

Target: Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian:SFI-43
Distance: 3.2300% / 0.03230047
82.0 Levant_Megiddo
11.6 ITA_Sardinia_C_o
6.4 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N

Target: Copt1_scaled
Distance: 2.7069% / 0.02706875
75.6 Levant_Megiddo
14.6 ITA_Sardinia_C_o
9.8 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N

Ajeje Brazorf
01-18-2022, 07:55 PM
As far as i know, natufian has nothing of SSA, and that's actually the main ancient component of the levantines

Dude, you serious? XD On Global25 there are 2 Natufian samples and even there SSA-related ancestry is around 5-6%. It was even known back in the days of GEDmatch and Eurogenes K13 that they had SSA, but there is probably inflated.

https://i.imgur.com/4zWQ07I.png

Kale
01-18-2022, 07:55 PM
Besides the Late_Period sample the other Egyptians including Nee4Speed sample need some form of minor Ken_Pastoral


Right, I don't think PastoralN or Bellbeaker outliers are perfect proxies. The former too much SSA, the latter too much ANF & WHG.
I 'triangulated' the common thread between the two Bellbeaker outliers and Pastoral_N before which comes out something like ~70% Peki'in_CA, ~15% Taforalt-like, ~15% SSA.
If we get something from Neolithic Egypt I'm guessing that's going to be close to what it looks like.

Gentica277282
01-18-2022, 08:25 PM
Dude, you serious? XD On Global25 there are 2 Natufian samples and even there SSA-related ancestry is around 5-6%. It was even known back in the days of GEDmatch and Eurogenes K13 that they had SSA, but there is probably inflated.

https://i.imgur.com/4zWQ07I.png

One of the natufian samples is contaminated and the other is a low snp count I wouldnít use that as evidence

Gentica277282
01-18-2022, 08:26 PM
Qpadm:

Levant_N
Anatolia_Barcin_N 75.1 +/- 1.5%
Iran_GanjDareh_N 6.5 +/- 1.5%
Taforalt 18.4 +/- 1.2%
Tail: 0.16
Snps: 756500
right = c('SouthAfrica_2000BP.SG', 'Congo_Mbuti.DG', 'Ethiopia_Mota_4500BP.SG', 'SierraLeone_Mende.DG', 'Anatolia_Boncuklu_N', 'Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG', 'CHG.SG', 'Italy_GrottaContinenza_HG.SG', 'RUS_Karelia_HG', 'Onge.DG', 'Mongolia_KutagOndor_N', 'Peru_Laramate_900BP')

Now if you figure Taforalt is a little over 50% ANA, then that's 10%.
I canít quote on this I donít have the experience

drobbah
01-18-2022, 08:36 PM
Right, I don't think PastoralN or Bellbeaker outliers are perfect proxies. The former too much SSA, the latter too much ANF & WHG.
I 'triangulated' the common thread between the two Bellbeaker outliers and Pastoral_N before which comes out something like ~70% Peki'in_CA, ~15% Taforalt-like, ~15% SSA.
If we get something from Neolithic Egypt I'm guessing that's going to be close to what it looks like.
Very interesting! If I were to remove Mota-like HG ancestry from the Early_Pastorals and using your model then Neolithic pre-dispersion population of the Eastern Deserts of Egypt-Sudan and possibly Lower Nubia would be something like ~55% Peki'in CA, ~30% Sudanese, & ~15% Taforalt.Then I would assume it would be some form of Sudanese SSA continuum peaking in the Eastern Deserts/Lower Nubia and decreases as you move up North towards the Nile Delta.Hopefully we get to see some Neolithic samples from Egypt & Sudan soon

Mnemonics
01-19-2022, 12:21 AM
Right, I don't think PastoralN or Bellbeaker outliers are perfect proxies. The former too much SSA, the latter too much ANF & WHG.
I 'triangulated' the common thread between the two Bellbeaker outliers and Pastoral_N before which comes out something like ~70% Peki'in_CA, ~15% Taforalt-like, ~15% SSA.
If we get something from Neolithic Egypt I'm guessing that's going to be close to what it looks like.



The Iberia_CA outlier generally works really well in qpAdm as a source for the non-contaminated Abusir samples, but popping Kenya_PastoralN in right pops list completely breaks the model. I wonder if the Natufian-like population in Egypt simply had more Iberomaurusian related admixture than the Natufians.





left pops:
EgyptianAnc
Baqah
Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica_published

right pops:
Cameroon_SMA.SG
DevilsGate_N
South_Africa_HG
Yana_UP
Boncuklu_N.SG
Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG
CHG
Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG
Ekven_IA.SG
Russia_Afanasievo.SG
Rome_Imperial
Lebanon_MBA.SG
Mota
Swiss_HG
Iberomaurusian

0 EgyptianAnc 2
1 Baqah 19
2 Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica_published 1
3 Cameroon_SMA.SG 2
4 DevilsGate_N 4
5 South_Africa_HG 4
6 Yana_UP 2
7 Boncuklu_N.SG 6
8 Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG 4
9 CHG 2
10 Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG 1
11 Ekven_IA.SG 10
12 Russia_Afanasievo.SG 2
13 Rome_Imperial 43
14 Lebanon_MBA.SG 5
15 Mota 1
16 Swiss_HG 1
17 Iberomaurusian 6
jackknife block size: 0.050
snps: 1150462 indivs: 115
number of blocks for block jackknife: 714
## ncols: 1150462
coverage: EgyptianAnc 544572
coverage: Baqah 1124280
coverage: Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica_published 681387
coverage: Cameroon_SMA.SG 1148760
coverage: DevilsGate_N 1134715
coverage: South_Africa_HG 1135129
coverage: Yana_UP 1135189
coverage: Boncuklu_N.SG 1138952
coverage: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG 1150077
coverage: CHG 1134595
coverage: Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG 1148603
coverage: Ekven_IA.SG 1144810
coverage: Russia_Afanasievo.SG 1147532
coverage: Rome_Imperial 1128057
coverage: Lebanon_MBA.SG 1138714
coverage: Mota 1134612
coverage: Swiss_HG 1130733
coverage: Iberomaurusian 1088044
Effective number of blocks: 632.356
numsnps used: 468361
codimension 1
f4info:
f4rank: 1 dof: 13 chisq: 9.020 tail: 0.771461274 dofdiff: 15 chisqdiff: -9.020 taildiff: 1
B:
scale 1.000
DevilsGate_N 0.910
South_Africa_HG 0.020
Yana_UP 0.889
Boncuklu_N.SG 1.065
Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG 1.007
CHG 1.324
Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG 1.345
Ekven_IA.SG 0.946
Russia_Afanasievo.SG 1.293
Rome_Imperial 1.193
Lebanon_MBA.SG 1.271
Mota 0.079
Swiss_HG 0.957
Iberomaurusian -0.376
A:
scale 336.182
Baqah 0.505
Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica_published -1.321


full rank
f4info:
f4rank: 2 dof: 0 chisq: 0.000 tail: 1 dofdiff: 13 chisqdiff: 9.020 taildiff: 0.771461274
B:
scale 712.160 236.626
DevilsGate_N 0.884 -0.914
South_Africa_HG -0.063 -0.071
Yana_UP 0.757 -0.938
Boncuklu_N.SG 1.077 -1.062
Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG 1.125 -0.961
CHG 1.259 -1.336
Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG 1.562 -1.244
Ekven_IA.SG 0.966 -0.930
Russia_Afanasievo.SG 1.226 -1.304
Rome_Imperial 1.119 -1.214
Lebanon_MBA.SG 1.028 -1.355
Mota 0.158 -0.052
Swiss_HG 0.977 -0.988
Iberomaurusian -0.684 0.208
A:
scale 1.414 1.414
Baqah 1.414 0.000
Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica_published 0.000 1.414


best coefficients: 0.723 0.277
Jackknife mean: 0.723497050 0.276502950
std. errors: 0.028 0.028

error covariance (* 1,000,000)
804 -804
-804 804


summ: EgyptianAnc 2 0.771461 0.723 0.277 804 -804 804

fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
00 0 13 9.020 0.771461 0.723 0.277
01 1 14 112.507 1.8234e-17 1.000 0.000
10 1 14 277.002 0 0.000 1.000
best pat: 00 0.771461 - -
best pat: 01 1.8234e-17 chi(nested): 103.488 p-value for nested model: 2.61992e-24

coeffs: 0.723 0.277

## dscore:: f_4(Base, Fit, Rbase, right2)
## genstat:: f_4(Base, Fit, right1, right2)

details: Baqah DevilsGate_N 0.001242 3.675117
details: Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica_published DevilsGate_N -0.003862 -7.575146
dscore: DevilsGate_N f4: -0.000170 Z: -0.488532

details: Baqah South_Africa_HG -0.000089 -0.377044
details: Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica_published South_Africa_HG -0.000301 -0.911967
dscore: South_Africa_HG f4: -0.000147 Z: -0.619306

details: Baqah Yana_UP 0.001063 2.903382
details: Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica_published Yana_UP -0.003963 -7.463382
dscore: Yana_UP f4: -0.000328 Z: -0.870307

details: Baqah Boncuklu_N.SG 0.001512 4.559417
details: Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica_published Boncuklu_N.SG -0.004489 -8.646754
dscore: Boncuklu_N.SG f4: -0.000148 Z: -0.433381

details: Baqah Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG 0.001580 4.665501
details: Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica_published Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG -0.004059 -8.224480
dscore: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG f4: 0.000020 Z: 0.057824

details: Baqah CHG 0.001768 4.671930
details: Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica_published CHG -0.005647 -10.055885
dscore: CHG f4: -0.000283 Z: -0.729201

details: Baqah Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG 0.002193 5.458190
details: Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica_published Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG -0.005258 -9.143119
dscore: Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG f4: 0.000132 Z: 0.324676

details: Baqah Ekven_IA.SG 0.001357 4.218816
details: Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica_published Ekven_IA.SG -0.003932 -8.247260
dscore: Ekven_IA.SG f4: -0.000106 Z: -0.322103

details: Baqah Russia_Afanasievo.SG 0.001721 5.026683
details: Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica_published Russia_Afanasievo.SG -0.005510 -10.612084
dscore: Russia_Afanasievo.SG f4: -0.000279 Z: -0.793459

details: Baqah Rome_Imperial 0.001571 5.546033
details: Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica_published Rome_Imperial -0.005129 -11.561737
dscore: Rome_Imperial f4: -0.000282 Z: -0.963942

details: Baqah Lebanon_MBA.SG 0.001443 4.532740
details: Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica_published Lebanon_MBA.SG -0.005726 -11.732147
dscore: Lebanon_MBA.SG f4: -0.000540 Z: -1.642420

details: Baqah Mota 0.000221 0.730128
details: Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica_published Mota -0.000219 -0.492104
dscore: Mota f4: 0.000099 Z: 0.320188

details: Baqah Swiss_HG 0.001372 3.199135
details: Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica_published Swiss_HG -0.004176 -6.408500
dscore: Swiss_HG f4: -0.000162 Z: -0.366904

details: Baqah Iberomaurusian -0.000960 -2.948497
details: Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica_published Iberomaurusian 0.000879 1.857050
dscore: Iberomaurusian f4: -0.000452 Z: -1.374992

gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG DevilsGate_N -0.489
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG South_Africa_HG -0.619
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG Yana_UP -0.870
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG Boncuklu_N.SG -0.433
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG 0.058
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG CHG -0.729
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG 0.325
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG Ekven_IA.SG -0.322
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG Russia_Afanasievo.SG -0.793
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG Rome_Imperial -0.964
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG Lebanon_MBA.SG -1.642
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG Mota 0.320
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG Swiss_HG -0.367
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG Iberomaurusian -1.375
gendstat: DevilsGate_N South_Africa_HG 0.066
gendstat: DevilsGate_N Yana_UP -0.468
gendstat: DevilsGate_N Boncuklu_N.SG 0.068
gendstat: DevilsGate_N Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG 0.682
gendstat: DevilsGate_N CHG -0.313
gendstat: DevilsGate_N Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG 0.748
gendstat: DevilsGate_N Ekven_IA.SG 0.247
gendstat: DevilsGate_N Russia_Afanasievo.SG -0.328
gendstat: DevilsGate_N Rome_Imperial -0.411
gendstat: DevilsGate_N Lebanon_MBA.SG -1.208
gendstat: DevilsGate_N Mota 0.674
gendstat: DevilsGate_N Swiss_HG 0.018
gendstat: DevilsGate_N Iberomaurusian -0.798
gendstat: South_Africa_HG Yana_UP -0.493
gendstat: South_Africa_HG Boncuklu_N.SG -0.003
gendstat: South_Africa_HG Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG 0.494
gendstat: South_Africa_HG CHG -0.354
gendstat: South_Africa_HG Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG 0.710
gendstat: South_Africa_HG Ekven_IA.SG 0.127
gendstat: South_Africa_HG Russia_Afanasievo.SG -0.378
gendstat: South_Africa_HG Rome_Imperial -0.486
gendstat: South_Africa_HG Lebanon_MBA.SG -1.247
gendstat: South_Africa_HG Mota 0.804
gendstat: South_Africa_HG Swiss_HG -0.034
gendstat: South_Africa_HG Iberomaurusian -0.964
gendstat: Yana_UP Boncuklu_N.SG 0.572
gendstat: Yana_UP Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG 1.084
gendstat: Yana_UP CHG 0.125
gendstat: Yana_UP Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG 1.142
gendstat: Yana_UP Ekven_IA.SG 0.721
gendstat: Yana_UP Russia_Afanasievo.SG 0.142
gendstat: Yana_UP Rome_Imperial 0.165
gendstat: Yana_UP Lebanon_MBA.SG -0.682
gendstat: Yana_UP Mota 1.025
gendstat: Yana_UP Swiss_HG 0.392
gendstat: Yana_UP Iberomaurusian -0.339
gendstat: Boncuklu_N.SG Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG 0.530
gendstat: Boncuklu_N.SG CHG -0.435
gendstat: Boncuklu_N.SG Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG 0.782
gendstat: Boncuklu_N.SG Ekven_IA.SG 0.139
gendstat: Boncuklu_N.SG Russia_Afanasievo.SG -0.446
gendstat: Boncuklu_N.SG Rome_Imperial -0.718
gendstat: Boncuklu_N.SG Lebanon_MBA.SG -1.591
gendstat: Boncuklu_N.SG Mota 0.633
gendstat: Boncuklu_N.SG Swiss_HG -0.036
gendstat: Boncuklu_N.SG Iberomaurusian -0.905
gendstat: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG CHG -0.874
gendstat: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG 0.289
gendstat: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG Ekven_IA.SG -0.559
gendstat: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG Russia_Afanasievo.SG -0.961
gendstat: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG Rome_Imperial -1.162
gendstat: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG Lebanon_MBA.SG -1.870
gendstat: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG Mota 0.204
gendstat: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG Swiss_HG -0.430
gendstat: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG Iberomaurusian -1.392
gendstat: CHG Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG 1.059
gendstat: CHG Ekven_IA.SG 0.528
gendstat: CHG Russia_Afanasievo.SG 0.011
gendstat: CHG Rome_Imperial 0.004
gendstat: CHG Lebanon_MBA.SG -0.821
gendstat: CHG Mota 0.903
gendstat: CHG Swiss_HG 0.286
gendstat: CHG Iberomaurusian -0.441
gendstat: Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG Ekven_IA.SG -0.631
gendstat: Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG Russia_Afanasievo.SG -1.068
gendstat: Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG Rome_Imperial -1.307
gendstat: Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG Lebanon_MBA.SG -1.917
gendstat: Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG Mota -0.075
gendstat: Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG Swiss_HG -0.639
gendstat: Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG Iberomaurusian -1.390
gendstat: Ekven_IA.SG Russia_Afanasievo.SG -0.568
gendstat: Ekven_IA.SG Rome_Imperial -0.728
gendstat: Ekven_IA.SG Lebanon_MBA.SG -1.549
gendstat: Ekven_IA.SG Mota 0.535
gendstat: Ekven_IA.SG Swiss_HG -0.139
gendstat: Ekven_IA.SG Iberomaurusian -1.029
gendstat: Russia_Afanasievo.SG Rome_Imperial -0.012
gendstat: Russia_Afanasievo.SG Lebanon_MBA.SG -0.905
gendstat: Russia_Afanasievo.SG Mota 0.975
gendstat: Russia_Afanasievo.SG Swiss_HG 0.292
gendstat: Russia_Afanasievo.SG Iberomaurusian -0.486
gendstat: Rome_Imperial Lebanon_MBA.SG -1.470
gendstat: Rome_Imperial Mota 1.099
gendstat: Rome_Imperial Swiss_HG 0.340
gendstat: Rome_Imperial Iberomaurusian -0.597
gendstat: Lebanon_MBA.SG Mota 1.677
gendstat: Lebanon_MBA.SG Swiss_HG 0.972
gendstat: Lebanon_MBA.SG Iberomaurusian 0.280
gendstat: Mota Swiss_HG -0.544
gendstat: Mota Iberomaurusian -1.498
gendstat: Swiss_HG Iberomaurusian -0.677




left pops:
EgyptianAnc
Baqah
Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica_published

right pops:
Cameroon_SMA.SG
DevilsGate_N
South_Africa_HG
Yana_UP
Boncuklu_N.SG
Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG
CHG
Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG
Ekven_IA.SG
Russia_Afanasievo.SG
Rome_Imperial
Lebanon_MBA.SG
Mota
Swiss_HG
Iberomaurusian
Kenya_PastoralN

0 EgyptianAnc 2
1 Baqah 19
2 Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica_published 1
3 Cameroon_SMA.SG 2
4 DevilsGate_N 4
5 South_Africa_HG 4
6 Yana_UP 2
7 Boncuklu_N.SG 6
8 Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG 4
9 CHG 2
10 Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG 1
11 Ekven_IA.SG 10
12 Russia_Afanasievo.SG 2
13 Rome_Imperial 43
14 Lebanon_MBA.SG 5
15 Mota 1
16 Swiss_HG 1
17 Iberomaurusian 6
18 Kenya_PastoralN 6
jackknife block size: 0.050
snps: 1150466 indivs: 121
number of blocks for block jackknife: 714
## ncols: 1150466
coverage: EgyptianAnc 544572
coverage: Baqah 1124280
coverage: Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica_published 681387
coverage: Cameroon_SMA.SG 1148760
coverage: DevilsGate_N 1134715
coverage: South_Africa_HG 1135129
coverage: Yana_UP 1135189
coverage: Boncuklu_N.SG 1138952
coverage: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG 1150077
coverage: CHG 1134595
coverage: Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG 1148603
coverage: Ekven_IA.SG 1144810
coverage: Russia_Afanasievo.SG 1147532
coverage: Rome_Imperial 1128057
coverage: Lebanon_MBA.SG 1138714
coverage: Mota 1134612
coverage: Swiss_HG 1130733
coverage: Iberomaurusian 1088044
coverage: Kenya_PastoralN 1034924
Effective number of blocks: 633.120
numsnps used: 457520
codimension 1
f4info:
f4rank: 1 dof: 14 chisq: 35.514 tail: 0.00123309246 dofdiff: 16 chisqdiff: -35.514 taildiff: 1
B:
scale 1.000
DevilsGate_N 0.929
South_Africa_HG 0.016
Yana_UP 0.908
Boncuklu_N.SG 1.101
Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG 1.023
CHG 1.373
Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG 1.379
Ekven_IA.SG 0.974
Russia_Afanasievo.SG 1.339
Rome_Imperial 1.228
Lebanon_MBA.SG 1.318
Mota 0.065
Swiss_HG 0.988
Iberomaurusian -0.416
Kenya_PastoralN 0.355
A:
scale 352.365
Baqah 0.553
Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica_published -1.301


full rank
f4info:
f4rank: 2 dof: 0 chisq: 0.000 tail: 1 dofdiff: 14 chisqdiff: 35.514 taildiff: 0.00123309246
B:
scale 711.003 237.505
DevilsGate_N 0.916 -0.930
South_Africa_HG -0.059 -0.076
Yana_UP 0.786 -0.958
Boncuklu_N.SG 1.117 -1.082
Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG 1.178 -0.971
CHG 1.301 -1.364
Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG 1.592 -1.275
Ekven_IA.SG 0.999 -0.946
Russia_Afanasievo.SG 1.275 -1.326
Rome_Imperial 1.155 -1.239
Lebanon_MBA.SG 1.060 -1.384
Mota 0.173 -0.047
Swiss_HG 1.002 -1.009
Iberomaurusian -0.692 0.214
Kenya_PastoralN -0.289 -0.663
A:
scale 1.414 1.414
Baqah 1.414 0.000
Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica_published 0.000 1.414


best coefficients: 0.702 0.298
Jackknife mean: 0.702275692 0.297724308
std. errors: 0.030 0.030

error covariance (* 1,000,000)
906 -906
-906 906


summ: EgyptianAnc 2 0.001233 0.702 0.298 906 -906 906

fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
00 0 14 35.514 0.00123309 0.702 0.298
01 1 15 151.326 1.3151e-24 1.000 0.000
10 1 15 279.875 0 0.000 1.000
best pat: 00 0.00123309 - -
best pat: 01 1.3151e-24 chi(nested): 115.812 p-value for nested model: 5.22535e-27

coeffs: 0.702 0.298

## dscore:: f_4(Base, Fit, Rbase, right2)
## genstat:: f_4(Base, Fit, right1, right2)

details: Baqah DevilsGate_N 0.001288 3.746268
details: Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica_published DevilsGate_N -0.003917 -7.554225
dscore: DevilsGate_N f4: -0.000265 Z: -0.743699

details: Baqah South_Africa_HG -0.000084 -0.347229
details: Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica_published South_Africa_HG -0.000319 -0.947411
dscore: South_Africa_HG f4: -0.000154 Z: -0.629266

details: Baqah Yana_UP 0.001105 2.959872
details: Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica_published Yana_UP -0.004034 -7.455147
dscore: Yana_UP f4: -0.000428 Z: -1.109710

details: Baqah Boncuklu_N.SG 0.001571 4.655897
details: Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica_published Boncuklu_N.SG -0.004556 -8.604909
dscore: Boncuklu_N.SG f4: -0.000257 Z: -0.732781

details: Baqah Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG 0.001657 4.800793
details: Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica_published Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG -0.004088 -8.120555
dscore: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG f4: -0.000057 Z: -0.162635

details: Baqah CHG 0.001831 4.750760
details: Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica_published CHG -0.005742 -10.040141
dscore: CHG f4: -0.000429 Z: -1.078367

details: Baqah Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG 0.002239 5.466463
details: Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica_published Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG -0.005366 -9.172170
dscore: Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG f4: -0.000031 Z: -0.073499

details: Baqah Ekven_IA.SG 0.001405 4.300786
details: Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica_published Ekven_IA.SG -0.003985 -8.203592
dscore: Ekven_IA.SG f4: -0.000203 Z: -0.602419

details: Baqah Russia_Afanasievo.SG 0.001793 5.147879
details: Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica_published Russia_Afanasievo.SG -0.005585 -10.568459
dscore: Russia_Afanasievo.SG f4: -0.000408 Z: -1.132533

details: Baqah Rome_Imperial 0.001624 5.649583
details: Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica_published Rome_Imperial -0.005218 -11.545033
dscore: Rome_Imperial f4: -0.000417 Z: -1.392682

details: Baqah Lebanon_MBA.SG 0.001491 4.611452
details: Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica_published Lebanon_MBA.SG -0.005829 -11.746502
dscore: Lebanon_MBA.SG f4: -0.000693 Z: -2.062009

details: Baqah Mota 0.000243 0.787559
details: Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica_published Mota -0.000197 -0.433131
dscore: Mota f4: 0.000112 Z: 0.351181

details: Baqah Swiss_HG 0.001409 3.221924
details: Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica_published Swiss_HG -0.004248 -6.391594
dscore: Swiss_HG f4: -0.000279 Z: -0.614610

details: Baqah Iberomaurusian -0.000974 -2.933936
details: Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica_published Iberomaurusian 0.000901 1.865598
dscore: Iberomaurusian f4: -0.000414 Z: -1.232339

details: Baqah Kenya_PastoralN -0.000406 -1.596240
details: Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica_published Kenya_PastoralN -0.002791 -7.240096
dscore: Kenya_PastoralN f4: -0.001118 Z: -4.205263

gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG DevilsGate_N -0.744
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG South_Africa_HG -0.629
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG Yana_UP -1.110
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG Boncuklu_N.SG -0.733
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG -0.163
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG CHG -1.078
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG -0.073
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG Ekven_IA.SG -0.602
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG Russia_Afanasievo.SG -1.133
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG Rome_Imperial -1.393
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG Lebanon_MBA.SG -2.062
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG Mota 0.351
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG Swiss_HG -0.615
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG Iberomaurusian -1.232
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG Kenya_PastoralN -4.205
gendstat: DevilsGate_N South_Africa_HG 0.314
gendstat: DevilsGate_N Yana_UP -0.475
gendstat: DevilsGate_N Boncuklu_N.SG 0.023
gendstat: DevilsGate_N Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG 0.730
gendstat: DevilsGate_N CHG -0.444
gendstat: DevilsGate_N Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG 0.566
gendstat: DevilsGate_N Ekven_IA.SG 0.234
gendstat: DevilsGate_N Russia_Afanasievo.SG -0.420
gendstat: DevilsGate_N Rome_Imperial -0.545
gendstat: DevilsGate_N Lebanon_MBA.SG -1.368
gendstat: DevilsGate_N Mota 0.922
gendstat: DevilsGate_N Swiss_HG -0.033
gendstat: DevilsGate_N Iberomaurusian -0.413
gendstat: DevilsGate_N Kenya_PastoralN -2.740
gendstat: South_Africa_HG Yana_UP -0.731
gendstat: South_Africa_HG Boncuklu_N.SG -0.308
gendstat: South_Africa_HG Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG 0.279
gendstat: South_Africa_HG CHG -0.700
gendstat: South_Africa_HG Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG 0.305
gendstat: South_Africa_HG Ekven_IA.SG -0.146
gendstat: South_Africa_HG Russia_Afanasievo.SG -0.710
gendstat: South_Africa_HG Rome_Imperial -0.925
gendstat: South_Africa_HG Lebanon_MBA.SG -1.673
gendstat: South_Africa_HG Mota 0.844
gendstat: South_Africa_HG Swiss_HG -0.277
gendstat: South_Africa_HG Iberomaurusian -0.804
gendstat: South_Africa_HG Kenya_PastoralN -3.658
gendstat: Yana_UP Boncuklu_N.SG 0.534
gendstat: Yana_UP Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG 1.135
gendstat: Yana_UP CHG -0.001
gendstat: Yana_UP Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG 0.966
gendstat: Yana_UP Ekven_IA.SG 0.718
gendstat: Yana_UP Russia_Afanasievo.SG 0.058
gendstat: Yana_UP Rome_Imperial 0.040
gendstat: Yana_UP Lebanon_MBA.SG -0.833
gendstat: Yana_UP Mota 1.263
gendstat: Yana_UP Swiss_HG 0.345
gendstat: Yana_UP Iberomaurusian 0.038
gendstat: Yana_UP Kenya_PastoralN -2.101
gendstat: Boncuklu_N.SG Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG 0.616
gendstat: Boncuklu_N.SG CHG -0.541
gendstat: Boncuklu_N.SG Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG 0.616
gendstat: Boncuklu_N.SG Ekven_IA.SG 0.174
gendstat: Boncuklu_N.SG Russia_Afanasievo.SG -0.502
gendstat: Boncuklu_N.SG Rome_Imperial -0.837
gendstat: Boncuklu_N.SG Lebanon_MBA.SG -1.727
gendstat: Boncuklu_N.SG Mota 0.920
gendstat: Boncuklu_N.SG Swiss_HG -0.054
gendstat: Boncuklu_N.SG Iberomaurusian -0.457
gendstat: Boncuklu_N.SG Kenya_PastoralN -3.137
gendstat: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG CHG -1.047
gendstat: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG 0.066
gendstat: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG Ekven_IA.SG -0.632
gendstat: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG Russia_Afanasievo.SG -1.100
gendstat: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG Rome_Imperial -1.352
gendstat: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG Lebanon_MBA.SG -2.071
gendstat: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG Mota 0.422
gendstat: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG Swiss_HG -0.510
gendstat: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG Iberomaurusian -1.028
gendstat: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG Kenya_PastoralN -3.383
gendstat: CHG Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG 0.993
gendstat: CHG Ekven_IA.SG 0.659
gendstat: CHG Russia_Afanasievo.SG 0.061
gendstat: CHG Rome_Imperial 0.042
gendstat: CHG Lebanon_MBA.SG -0.826
gendstat: CHG Mota 1.247
gendstat: CHG Swiss_HG 0.345
gendstat: CHG Iberomaurusian 0.037
gendstat: CHG Kenya_PastoralN -2.002
gendstat: Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG Ekven_IA.SG -0.446
gendstat: Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG Russia_Afanasievo.SG -0.955
gendstat: Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG Rome_Imperial -1.189
gendstat: Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG Lebanon_MBA.SG -1.843
gendstat: Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG Mota 0.320
gendstat: Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG Swiss_HG -0.526
gendstat: Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG Iberomaurusian -0.893
gendstat: Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG Kenya_PastoralN -2.983
gendstat: Ekven_IA.SG Russia_Afanasievo.SG -0.657
gendstat: Ekven_IA.SG Rome_Imperial -0.864
gendstat: Ekven_IA.SG Lebanon_MBA.SG -1.710
gendstat: Ekven_IA.SG Mota 0.802
gendstat: Ekven_IA.SG Swiss_HG -0.183
gendstat: Ekven_IA.SG Iberomaurusian -0.614
gendstat: Ekven_IA.SG Kenya_PastoralN -3.070
gendstat: Russia_Afanasievo.SG Rome_Imperial -0.037
gendstat: Russia_Afanasievo.SG Lebanon_MBA.SG -0.969
gendstat: Russia_Afanasievo.SG Mota 1.308
gendstat: Russia_Afanasievo.SG Swiss_HG 0.314
gendstat: Russia_Afanasievo.SG Iberomaurusian -0.016
gendstat: Russia_Afanasievo.SG Kenya_PastoralN -2.329
gendstat: Rome_Imperial Lebanon_MBA.SG -1.535
gendstat: Rome_Imperial Mota 1.485
gendstat: Rome_Imperial Swiss_HG 0.381
gendstat: Rome_Imperial Iberomaurusian 0.010
gendstat: Rome_Imperial Kenya_PastoralN -3.278
gendstat: Lebanon_MBA.SG Mota 2.061
gendstat: Lebanon_MBA.SG Swiss_HG 1.040
gendstat: Lebanon_MBA.SG Iberomaurusian 0.860
gendstat: Lebanon_MBA.SG Kenya_PastoralN -1.614
gendstat: Mota Swiss_HG -0.791
gendstat: Mota Iberomaurusian -1.390
gendstat: Mota Kenya_PastoralN -3.845
gendstat: Swiss_HG Iberomaurusian -0.308
gendstat: Swiss_HG Kenya_PastoralN -2.037
gendstat: Iberomaurusian Kenya_PastoralN -2.514

lifeisdandy
01-19-2022, 12:53 AM
So are we basically Israelis with some ssa and North African? LOL

Ajeje Brazorf
01-19-2022, 08:23 AM
Using only samples that predate 3000 BC
https://pastebin.com/raw/JD02Httm

Sudanese Copts


Target: Sudanese_Copt
Distance: 3.0654% / 0.03065445 | R3P
50.2 TUR_Arslantepe_LC_ART023___BC_3277___Coverage_30.6 9%
42.8 Levant_Natufian_contam_I1072___BC_10750___Coverage _38.21%
7.0 CMR_Shum_Laka_8000BP_I10872___BC_5870___Coverage_4 7.21%

Target: Sudanese_Copt
Distance: 2.5715% / 0.02571515 | R4P
46.8 Levant_Natufian_contam_I1072___BC_10750___Coverage _38.21%
38.2 TUR_Arslantepe_LC_ART023___BC_3277___Coverage_30.6 9%
8.8 TKM_Geoksyur_En_I8510___BC_3213___Coverage_29.85%
6.2 CMR_Shum_Laka_8000BP_I10872___BC_5870___Coverage_4 7.21%

Modern Muslim Egyptians


Target: Egyptian
Distance: 3.6986% / 0.03698603 | R3P
51.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C_I4351___BC_5970___Coverage_64.70 %
38.2 Levant_Natufian_contam_I1072___BC_10750___Coverage _38.21%
10.6 CMR_Shum_Laka_8000BP_I10872___BC_5870___Coverage_4 7.21%

Target: Egyptian
Distance: 2.9078% / 0.02907762 | R4P
39.8 Levant_Natufian_contam_I1072___BC_10750___Coverage _38.21%
36.4 TUR_Arslantepe_LC_ART023___BC_3277___Coverage_30.6 9%
12.6 TKM_Geoksyur_En_I8510___BC_3213___Coverage_29.85%
11.2 CMR_Shum_Laka_8000BP_I10872___BC_5870___Coverage_4 7.21%

Ancient Egyptians


Target: Egyptian_Ancient_proxy
Distance: 2.1686% / 0.02168623 | R3P
60.8 TUR_Arslantepe_LC_ART015___BC_3262___Coverage_87.4 9%
36.0 Levant_Natufian_contam_I1072___BC_10750___Coverage _38.21%
3.2 CMR_Shum_Laka_8000BP_I10872___BC_5870___Coverage_4 7.21%

alejandromb92
01-19-2022, 09:12 AM
Dude, you serious? XD On Global25 there are 2 Natufian samples and even there SSA-related ancestry is around 5-6%. It was even known back in the days of GEDmatch and Eurogenes K13 that they had SSA, but there is probably inflated.

https://i.imgur.com/4zWQ07I.png

Yes of course i was serious, that is why i said "as far as i know" first.

The scientists suggest that the Levantine early farmers may have spread southward into East Africa, bringing along Western Eurasian and Basal Eurasian ancestral components separate from that which would arrive later in North Africa. In the study no affinity of Natufians to sub-Saharan Africans was found in the genome-wide analysis, as present-day sub-Saharan Africans do not share more alleles with Natufians than with other ancient Eurasians. However the scientists state that they were unable to test for affinity in the Natufians to early North African populations using present-day North Africans as a reference because present-day North Africans owe most of their ancestry to back-migration from Eurasia.

I might be wrong but i understand that they have near-zero affinity with SSA according a study made by Lazaridis.


Ancient Egyptians and Copts carry indigenous non-West Eurasian ancestry and this is an objective fact that can't be denied.If the Ancient Egyptians didn't carry ANA (Ancient North Africa) or AEA (Ancient Eastern African/Saharan) then they wouldn't be getting any Ken_Early_Pastoral or Taforalt in their runs.Even Levant PPNB carries ANA ancestry....


Target: Copt1_scaled
Distance: 3.8762% / 0.03876200
69.2 Levant_PPNB
14.0 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N
8.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
7.4 GEO_CHG
1.0 MAR_Taforalt
0.4 Dinka

Target: Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian:SFI-43
Distance: 3.3082% / 0.03308174
72.2 Levant_PPNB
9.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
9.4 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N
7.6 GEO_CHG
1.2 MAR_Taforalt

Target: England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
Distance: 3.3237% / 0.03323667
71.0 Levant_PPNB
11.8 GEO_CHG
10.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
6.0 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N
0.6 MAR_Taforalt

Target: EGY_Late_Period
Distance: 3.2857% / 0.03285669
74.8 Levant_PPNB
8.8 GEO_CHG
8.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
5.8 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N
2.4 MAR_Taforalt


Here's a Natufian component without the ANA & minor Mota affinities:

Target: Levant_PPNB
Distance: 3.1257% / 0.03125695
45.6 Proto-Natufian_(simulated)
45.4 TUR_Barcin_N
9.0 ANA_(simulated)

Check any PCA plot as well...if Ancient Egyptians were 100% West Eurasian they wouldn't be plotting the way they do

The average posted by Ajeje is saying the contrary about SSA admixture in ancient egyptians.

Target: EGY_Late_Period:JK2911
Distance: 4.1951% / 0.04195095
54.2 Natufian
26.6 Anatolian_Neolithic_Farmer
9.2 Iranian_Neolithic
8.8 Caucasian_Hunter-Gatherer
1.2 Iberomaurusian

Target: EGY_Late_Period:JK2134
Distance: 5.2806% / 0.05280588
50.2 Natufian
32.0 Anatolian_Neolithic_Farmer
10.8 Caucasian_Hunter-Gatherer
4.0 Iranian_Neolithic
3.0 Iberomaurusian

Target: EGY_Hellenistic_contam:JK2888
Distance: 6.4260% / 0.06426042
53.0 Natufian
29.0 Anatolian_Neolithic_Farmer
12.2 Iranian_Neolithic
3.8 Caucasian_Hunter-Gatherer
2.0 Iberomaurusian

drobbah
01-19-2022, 09:46 AM
Yes of course i was serious, that is why i said "as far as i know" first.


The average posted by Ajeje is saying the contrary about SSA admixture in ancient egyptians.

Target: EGY_Late_Period:JK2911
Distance: 4.1951% / 0.04195095
54.2 Natufian
26.6 Anatolian_Neolithic_Farmer
9.2 Iranian_Neolithic
8.8 Caucasian_Hunter-Gatherer
1.2 Iberomaurusian

Target: EGY_Late_Period:JK2134
Distance: 5.2806% / 0.05280588
50.2 Natufian
32.0 Anatolian_Neolithic_Farmer
10.8 Caucasian_Hunter-Gatherer
4.0 Iranian_Neolithic
3.0 Iberomaurusian

Target: EGY_Hellenistic_contam:JK2888
Distance: 6.4260% / 0.06426042
53.0 Natufian
29.0 Anatolian_Neolithic_Farmer
12.2 Iranian_Neolithic
3.8 Caucasian_Hunter-Gatherer
2.0 Iberomaurusian
Natufians carry significant Taforalt-like ancestry and East African ancestry that is Mota-like.Plus IBM are only around the 50% West Eurasian mark. with rest being ANA and as shown by Kale even those Barcin Anatolian Farmers are 10% ANA..so too say Ancient Egyptians are nearly pure West Eurasians is a blatant lie.You have been proven wrong already and there's plenty of various types of evidence that disproves your stance of a pure non-African Ancient Egyptian population which is ludicrous to think of when they are surrounded from the Eastern deserts by proto-Cushitic pastoralists, to the West by the ancestors of the modern Maghrebis and to the south Sudanic/Nilotic (Upper Nubia,Eastern Sahara) populations all of which are rich in indigenous African ancestry.Did you think that all the various African ancestries of the surrounding populations would just jump over historical Ancient Egypt into the Levant? We even have a Bronze Age Levantine with L0f2a....I wonder where that came from lol

Target: EGY_Late_Period
Distance: 3.8032% / 0.03803228
90.4 Levant_ISR_C
5.4 Sudanese
4.2 MAR_Taforalt

Target: England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
Distance: 5.4010% / 0.05401043
92.6 Levant_ISR_C
5.0 Sudanese
1.6 ETH_4500BP
0.8 ANA_(simulated)

Target: Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian:SFI-43
Distance: 4.3541% / 0.04354100
89.4 Levant_ISR_C
7.2 Sudanese
3.4 MAR_Taforalt


Target: Copt1_scaled
Distance: 2.9250% / 0.02925029 | ADC: 0.25x RC
44.6 Levant_JOR_EBA
43.8 Levant_ISR_C
8.0 Sudanese
3.6 MAR_Taforalt


Eastern Saharan ancestry (without the West African admixture current Dinka/Nuer populations carry) must have always been present in the Nile Valley and the Eastern Deserts to varying degrees with fluctuations.Just take this 4000 year old Cushite below who's ancestors left NE Africa probably 1k years prior to him.

Target: KEN_Early_Pastoral_N
Distance: 6.6405% / 0.06640467
41.0 Levant_ISR_C
23.8 Sudanese
23.2 ETH_4500BP (indigenous Horner ancestry)
12.0 MAR_Taforalt

Mnemonics
01-19-2022, 11:18 AM
Yes of course i was serious, that is why i said "as far as i know" first.

The scientists suggest that the Levantine early farmers may have spread southward into East Africa, bringing along Western Eurasian and Basal Eurasian ancestral components separate from that which would arrive later in North Africa. In the study no affinity of Natufians to sub-Saharan Africans was found in the genome-wide analysis, as present-day sub-Saharan Africans do not share more alleles with Natufians than with other ancient Eurasians. However the scientists state that they were unable to test for affinity in the Natufians to early North African populations using present-day North Africans as a reference because present-day North Africans owe most of their ancestry to back-migration from Eurasia.

I might be wrong but i understand that they have near-zero affinity with SSA according a study made by Lazaridis.



The average posted by Ajeje is saying the contrary about SSA admixture in ancient egyptians.

Target: EGY_Late_Period:JK2911
Distance: 4.1951% / 0.04195095
54.2 Natufian
26.6 Anatolian_Neolithic_Farmer
9.2 Iranian_Neolithic
8.8 Caucasian_Hunter-Gatherer
1.2 Iberomaurusian

Target: EGY_Late_Period:JK2134
Distance: 5.2806% / 0.05280588
50.2 Natufian
32.0 Anatolian_Neolithic_Farmer
10.8 Caucasian_Hunter-Gatherer
4.0 Iranian_Neolithic
3.0 Iberomaurusian

Target: EGY_Hellenistic_contam:JK2888
Distance: 6.4260% / 0.06426042
53.0 Natufian
29.0 Anatolian_Neolithic_Farmer
12.2 Iranian_Neolithic
3.8 Caucasian_Hunter-Gatherer
2.0 Iberomaurusian

The idea that the Natufians lack any affinity to SSA populations relative to other ancient Eurasian is a result of a strange quirk of the software used for calculating Fstats which seems to non-significant stats to appear for SSA populations.

You see similar non-significant stats for Kenya_PastoralN and Horners despite them having a very large amount of SSA + a relative sizable amount of Iberomaurusian.

SrananÁao
01-19-2022, 11:34 AM
I've seen multiple models showing SSA in Natufians. Of course we also have the 2018 study from Daniel Shriner which shows 6.8 Omotic DNA in Natufians.


The Natufian sample consisted of 61.2% Arabian, 21.2% Northern African, 10.9% Western Asian, and 6.8% Omotic ancestry (Figure 1F and Table 1). Previously, no significant sharing of ancestral components with sub-Saharan African populations was found to accompany the presence of E1b1b1b2 Y haplogroups.
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/268524v1.abstract

Ajeje Brazorf
01-19-2022, 01:49 PM
I might be wrong but i understand that they have near-zero affinity with SSA according a study made by Lazaridis.

The average posted by Ajeje is saying the contrary about SSA admixture in ancient egyptians.

Well, my average says that there is direct SSA ancestry (3%, true East African-like SSA) and hidden SSA ancestry (another 2.4%, under Taforalt and Natufian). That said, we are talking about a very low percentage, which reaches a maximum of around 5.4%. Taforalt is approximately 34-39% SSA, whereas Natufian has 5-6%.

Mnemonics
01-19-2022, 02:19 PM
Well, my average says that there is direct SSA ancestry (3%, true East African-like SSA) and hidden SSA ancestry (another 2.4%, under Taforalt and Natufian). That said, we are talking about a very low percentage, which reaches a maximum of around 5.4%. Taforalt is approximately 34-39% SSA, whereas Natufian has 5-6%.



The Natufians seem to be predominantly Pinarbasi-like with Taforalt-like and minor East African HG admixture. They seem to have closer to 10-14% net African affinity rather than 5-6%.





left pops:
Natufian
Anatolia_Epipaleolithic
Iberomaurusian
Tanzania_Kisese

right pops:
Cameroon_SMA.SG
DevilsGate_N
South_Africa_HG
Yana_UP
Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG
CHG
ZlatyKun
BachoKiro
Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG
Ekven_IA.SG
Russia_Afanasievo.SG
Mota
Swiss_HG
Morocco_EN

0 Natufian 6
1 Anatolia_Epipaleolithic 1
2 Iberomaurusian 6
3 Tanzania_Kisese 1
4 Cameroon_SMA.SG 2
5 DevilsGate_N 4
6 South_Africa_HG 4
7 Yana_UP 2
8 Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG 4
9 CHG 2
10 ZlatyKun 1
11 BachoKiro 3
12 Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG 1
13 Ekven_IA.SG 10
14 Russia_Afanasievo.SG 2
15 Mota 1
16 Swiss_HG 1
17 Morocco_EN 3
jackknife block size: 0.050
snps: 1150451 indivs: 54
number of blocks for block jackknife: 714
## ncols: 1150451
coverage: Natufian 529354
coverage: Anatolia_Epipaleolithic 838782
coverage: Iberomaurusian 1088044
coverage: Tanzania_Kisese 938012
coverage: Cameroon_SMA.SG 1148760
coverage: DevilsGate_N 1134715
coverage: South_Africa_HG 1135129
coverage: Yana_UP 1135189
coverage: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG 1150077
coverage: CHG 1134595
coverage: ZlatyKun 1120502
coverage: BachoKiro 990561
coverage: Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG 1148603
coverage: Ekven_IA.SG 1144810
coverage: Russia_Afanasievo.SG 1147532
coverage: Mota 1134612
coverage: Swiss_HG 1130733
coverage: Morocco_EN 653097
Effective number of blocks: 617.247
numsnps used: 340669
codimension 1
f4info:
f4rank: 2 dof: 11 chisq: 9.149 tail: 0.60817341 dofdiff: 13 chisqdiff: -9.149 taildiff: 1
B:
scale 1.000 1.000
DevilsGate_N 1.006 -0.035
South_Africa_HG -0.177 -0.245
Yana_UP 1.113 -0.137
Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG 1.037 -0.076
CHG 1.209 -0.322
ZlatyKun 0.959 -0.106
BachoKiro 0.912 -0.025
Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG 1.157 -0.301
Ekven_IA.SG 1.052 -0.074
Russia_Afanasievo.SG 1.242 -0.324
Mota 0.107 0.095
Swiss_HG 1.300 -0.357
Morocco_EN 0.863 3.530
A:
scale 89.880 311.097
Anatolia_Epipaleolithic 0.183 -0.328
Iberomaurusian -0.403 1.679
Tanzania_Kisese -1.674 -0.271


full rank
f4info:
f4rank: 3 dof: 0 chisq: 0.000 tail: 1 dofdiff: 11 chisqdiff: 9.149 taildiff: 0.60817341
B:
scale 475.601 146.232 52.462
DevilsGate_N 0.960 -0.699 -1.000
South_Africa_HG -0.158 -0.096 0.165
Yana_UP 1.151 -0.845 -1.096
Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG 1.078 -0.743 -1.028
CHG 1.262 -1.060 -1.182
ZlatyKun 0.801 -0.755 -0.958
BachoKiro 0.836 -0.637 -0.912
Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG 0.780 -1.078 -1.160
Ekven_IA.SG 1.017 -0.767 -1.043
Russia_Afanasievo.SG 1.262 -1.097 -1.218
Mota 0.067 0.006 -0.124
Swiss_HG 1.557 -1.134 -1.262
Morocco_EN -0.986 2.213 -1.022
A:
scale 1.732 1.732 1.732
Anatolia_Epipaleolithic 1.732 0.000 0.000
Iberomaurusian 0.000 1.732 0.000
Tanzania_Kisese 0.000 0.000 1.732


best coefficients: 0.791 0.162 0.047
Jackknife mean: 0.790524141 0.162362284 0.047113575
std. errors: 0.015 0.016 0.011

error covariance (* 1,000,000)
222 -176 -46
-176 243 -66
-46 -66 112


summ: Natufian 3 0.608173 0.791 0.162 0.047 222 -176 -46 243 -66 ...
112

fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
000 0 11 9.149 0.608173 0.791 0.162 0.047
001 1 12 42.311 2.9524e-05 0.812 0.188 0.000
010 1 12 106.406 3.06723e-17 0.914 0.000 0.086
100 1 12 2424.829 0 0.000 0.877 0.123
011 2 13 171.185 1.05991e-29 1.000 0.000 0.000
101 2 13 2456.425 0 0.000 1.000 0.000
110 2 13 4456.096 0 0.000 0.000 1.000
best pat: 000 0.608173 - -
best pat: 001 2.9524e-05 chi(nested): 33.162 p-value for nested model: 8.47895e-09
best pat: 011 1.05991e-29 chi(nested): 128.874 p-value for nested model: 7.2245e-30

coeffs: 0.791 0.162 0.047

## dscore:: f_4(Base, Fit, Rbase, right2)
## genstat:: f_4(Base, Fit, right1, right2)

details: Anatolia_Epipaleolithic DevilsGate_N 0.002018 4.730320
details: Iberomaurusian DevilsGate_N -0.004783 -12.359199
details: Tanzania_Kisese DevilsGate_N -0.019053 -39.066514
dscore: DevilsGate_N f4: -0.000079 Z: -0.208391

details: Anatolia_Epipaleolithic South_Africa_HG -0.000332 -1.064506
details: Iberomaurusian South_Africa_HG -0.000657 -2.340756
details: Tanzania_Kisese South_Africa_HG 0.003139 9.088960
dscore: South_Africa_HG f4: -0.000221 Z: -0.789093

details: Anatolia_Epipaleolithic Yana_UP 0.002421 5.596171
details: Iberomaurusian Yana_UP -0.005775 -14.980895
details: Tanzania_Kisese Yana_UP -0.020894 -42.277141
dscore: Yana_UP f4: -0.000008 Z: -0.021683

details: Anatolia_Epipaleolithic Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG 0.002266 5.277272
details: Iberomaurusian Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG -0.005081 -13.596997
details: Tanzania_Kisese Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG -0.019589 -41.305846
dscore: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG f4: 0.000043 Z: 0.114576

details: Anatolia_Epipaleolithic CHG 0.002653 5.867566
details: Iberomaurusian CHG -0.007246 -17.832587
details: Tanzania_Kisese CHG -0.022536 -44.023487
dscore: CHG f4: -0.000141 Z: -0.348283

details: Anatolia_Epipaleolithic ZlatyKun 0.001684 3.157161
details: Iberomaurusian ZlatyKun -0.005166 -12.256004
details: Tanzania_Kisese ZlatyKun -0.018262 -32.474413
dscore: ZlatyKun f4: -0.000368 Z: -0.789014

details: Anatolia_Epipaleolithic BachoKiro 0.001758 4.261299
details: Iberomaurusian BachoKiro -0.004355 -11.575823
details: Tanzania_Kisese BachoKiro -0.017379 -35.840877
dscore: BachoKiro f4: -0.000136 Z: -0.371379

details: Anatolia_Epipaleolithic Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG 0.001640 3.289370
details: Iberomaurusian Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG -0.007374 -16.705580
details: Tanzania_Kisese Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG -0.022105 -40.194593
dscore: Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG f4: -0.000942 Z: -2.116720

details: Anatolia_Epipaleolithic Ekven_IA.SG 0.002138 5.298391
details: Iberomaurusian Ekven_IA.SG -0.005247 -13.965587
details: Tanzania_Kisese Ekven_IA.SG -0.019883 -43.768356
dscore: Ekven_IA.SG f4: -0.000098 Z: -0.273479

details: Anatolia_Epipaleolithic Russia_Afanasievo.SG 0.002653 6.087299
details: Iberomaurusian Russia_Afanasievo.SG -0.007500 -18.903361
details: Tanzania_Kisese Russia_Afanasievo.SG -0.023214 -47.335951
dscore: Russia_Afanasievo.SG f4: -0.000214 Z: -0.547727

details: Anatolia_Epipaleolithic Mota 0.000141 0.337780
details: Iberomaurusian Mota 0.000042 0.118017
details: Tanzania_Kisese Mota -0.002369 -5.199389
dscore: Mota f4: 0.000007 Z: 0.018304

details: Anatolia_Epipaleolithic Swiss_HG 0.003274 6.125804
details: Iberomaurusian Swiss_HG -0.007754 -15.957414
details: Tanzania_Kisese Swiss_HG -0.024060 -41.733818
dscore: Swiss_HG f4: 0.000196 Z: 0.410169

details: Anatolia_Epipaleolithic Morocco_EN -0.002073 -4.377341
details: Iberomaurusian Morocco_EN 0.015133 31.918884
details: Tanzania_Kisese Morocco_EN -0.019480 -37.320750
dscore: Morocco_EN f4: -0.000101 Z: -0.239079

gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG DevilsGate_N -0.208
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG South_Africa_HG -0.789
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG Yana_UP -0.022
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG 0.115
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG CHG -0.348
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG ZlatyKun -0.789
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG BachoKiro -0.371
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG -2.117
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG Ekven_IA.SG -0.273
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG Russia_Afanasievo.SG -0.548
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG Mota 0.018
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG Swiss_HG 0.410
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG Morocco_EN -0.239
gendstat: DevilsGate_N South_Africa_HG -0.380
gendstat: DevilsGate_N Yana_UP 0.198
gendstat: DevilsGate_N Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG 0.376
gendstat: DevilsGate_N CHG -0.152
gendstat: DevilsGate_N ZlatyKun -0.610
gendstat: DevilsGate_N BachoKiro -0.162
gendstat: DevilsGate_N Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG -1.942
gendstat: DevilsGate_N Ekven_IA.SG -0.068
gendstat: DevilsGate_N Russia_Afanasievo.SG -0.355
gendstat: DevilsGate_N Mota 0.194
gendstat: DevilsGate_N Swiss_HG 0.596
gendstat: DevilsGate_N Morocco_EN -0.049
gendstat: South_Africa_HG Yana_UP 0.569
gendstat: South_Africa_HG Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG 0.711
gendstat: South_Africa_HG CHG 0.201
gendstat: South_Africa_HG ZlatyKun -0.324
gendstat: South_Africa_HG BachoKiro 0.233
gendstat: South_Africa_HG Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG -1.638
gendstat: South_Africa_HG Ekven_IA.SG 0.342
gendstat: South_Africa_HG Russia_Afanasievo.SG 0.019
gendstat: South_Africa_HG Mota 0.613
gendstat: South_Africa_HG Swiss_HG 0.883
gendstat: South_Africa_HG Morocco_EN 0.274
gendstat: Yana_UP Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG 0.146
gendstat: Yana_UP CHG -0.325
gendstat: Yana_UP ZlatyKun -0.780
gendstat: Yana_UP BachoKiro -0.345
gendstat: Yana_UP Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG -2.118
gendstat: Yana_UP Ekven_IA.SG -0.263
gendstat: Yana_UP Russia_Afanasievo.SG -0.548
gendstat: Yana_UP Mota 0.035
gendstat: Yana_UP Swiss_HG 0.439
gendstat: Yana_UP Morocco_EN -0.206
gendstat: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG CHG -0.462
gendstat: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG ZlatyKun -0.893
gendstat: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG BachoKiro -0.500
gendstat: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG -2.257
gendstat: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG Ekven_IA.SG -0.520
gendstat: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG Russia_Afanasievo.SG -0.710
gendstat: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG Mota -0.085
gendstat: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG Swiss_HG 0.332
gendstat: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG Morocco_EN -0.325
gendstat: CHG ZlatyKun -0.460
gendstat: CHG BachoKiro 0.010
gendstat: CHG Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG -1.856
gendstat: CHG Ekven_IA.SG 0.112
gendstat: CHG Russia_Afanasievo.SG -0.193
gendstat: CHG Mota 0.324
gendstat: CHG Swiss_HG 0.702
gendstat: CHG Morocco_EN 0.083
gendstat: ZlatyKun BachoKiro 0.479
gendstat: ZlatyKun Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG -1.098
gendstat: ZlatyKun Ekven_IA.SG 0.617
gendstat: ZlatyKun Russia_Afanasievo.SG 0.337
gendstat: ZlatyKun Mota 0.771
gendstat: ZlatyKun Swiss_HG 1.059
gendstat: ZlatyKun Morocco_EN 0.518
gendstat: BachoKiro Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG -1.802
gendstat: BachoKiro Ekven_IA.SG 0.110
gendstat: BachoKiro Russia_Afanasievo.SG -0.198
gendstat: BachoKiro Mota 0.337
gendstat: BachoKiro Swiss_HG 0.680
gendstat: BachoKiro Morocco_EN 0.078
gendstat: Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG Ekven_IA.SG 2.003
gendstat: Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG Russia_Afanasievo.SG 1.717
gendstat: Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG Mota 1.945
gendstat: Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG Swiss_HG 2.205
gendstat: Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG Morocco_EN 1.616
gendstat: Ekven_IA.SG Russia_Afanasievo.SG -0.337
gendstat: Ekven_IA.SG Mota 0.258
gendstat: Ekven_IA.SG Swiss_HG 0.672
gendstat: Ekven_IA.SG Morocco_EN -0.006
gendstat: Russia_Afanasievo.SG Mota 0.503
gendstat: Russia_Afanasievo.SG Swiss_HG 0.916
gendstat: Russia_Afanasievo.SG Morocco_EN 0.245
gendstat: Mota Swiss_HG 0.360
gendstat: Mota Morocco_EN -0.232
gendstat: Swiss_HG Morocco_EN -0.570





Interestingly you get a near perfect model when Iran_N is removed. Is there minor Iran_N related admixture in the Natufians or vice versa?






left pops:
Natufian
Anatolia_Epipaleolithic
Iberomaurusian
Tanzania_Kisese

right pops:
Cameroon_SMA.SG
DevilsGate_N
South_Africa_HG
Yana_UP
Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG
CHG
ZlatyKun
BachoKiro
Ekven_IA.SG
Russia_Afanasievo.SG
Mota
Swiss_HG
Morocco_EN

0 Natufian 6
1 Anatolia_Epipaleolithic 1
2 Iberomaurusian 6
3 Tanzania_Kisese 1
4 Cameroon_SMA.SG 2
5 DevilsGate_N 4
6 South_Africa_HG 4
7 Yana_UP 2
8 Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG 4
9 CHG 2
10 ZlatyKun 1
11 BachoKiro 3
12 Ekven_IA.SG 10
13 Russia_Afanasievo.SG 2
14 Mota 1
15 Swiss_HG 1
16 Morocco_EN 3
jackknife block size: 0.050
snps: 1150440 indivs: 53
number of blocks for block jackknife: 714
## ncols: 1150440
coverage: Natufian 529354
coverage: Anatolia_Epipaleolithic 838782
coverage: Iberomaurusian 1088044
coverage: Tanzania_Kisese 938012
coverage: Cameroon_SMA.SG 1148760
coverage: DevilsGate_N 1134715
coverage: South_Africa_HG 1135129
coverage: Yana_UP 1135189
coverage: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG 1150077
coverage: CHG 1134595
coverage: ZlatyKun 1120502
coverage: BachoKiro 990561
coverage: Ekven_IA.SG 1144810
coverage: Russia_Afanasievo.SG 1147532
coverage: Mota 1134612
coverage: Swiss_HG 1130733
coverage: Morocco_EN 653097
Effective number of blocks: 617.119
numsnps used: 341753
codimension 1
f4info:
f4rank: 2 dof: 10 chisq: 3.425 tail: 0.969593494 dofdiff: 12 chisqdiff: -3.425 taildiff: 1
B:
scale 1.000 1.000
DevilsGate_N 1.020 -0.077
South_Africa_HG -0.177 -0.229
Yana_UP 1.128 -0.180
Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG 1.055 -0.116
CHG 1.224 -0.361
ZlatyKun 0.971 -0.147
BachoKiro 0.926 -0.064
Ekven_IA.SG 1.067 -0.117
Russia_Afanasievo.SG 1.257 -0.368
Mota 0.111 0.090
Swiss_HG 1.316 -0.405
Morocco_EN 0.884 3.379
A:
scale 91.437 301.563
Anatolia_Epipaleolithic 0.184 -0.333
Iberomaurusian -0.380 1.680
Tanzania_Kisese -1.680 -0.259


full rank
f4info:
f4rank: 3 dof: 0 chisq: 0.000 tail: 1 dofdiff: 10 chisqdiff: 3.425 taildiff: 0.969593494
B:
scale 468.996 147.695 53.386
DevilsGate_N 0.942 -0.704 -1.014
South_Africa_HG -0.154 -0.097 0.167
Yana_UP 1.134 -0.850 -1.112
Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG 1.062 -0.748 -1.043
CHG 1.240 -1.066 -1.200
ZlatyKun 0.790 -0.760 -0.972
BachoKiro 0.823 -0.641 -0.925
Ekven_IA.SG 0.999 -0.772 -1.058
Russia_Afanasievo.SG 1.240 -1.104 -1.236
Mota 0.064 0.008 -0.126
Swiss_HG 1.534 -1.141 -1.281
Morocco_EN -0.972 2.229 -1.037
A:
scale 1.732 1.732 1.732
Anatolia_Epipaleolithic 1.732 0.000 0.000
Iberomaurusian 0.000 1.732 0.000
Tanzania_Kisese 0.000 0.000 1.732


best coefficients: 0.787 0.164 0.049
Jackknife mean: 0.786802460 0.163911885 0.049285656
std. errors: 0.015 0.015 0.011

error covariance (* 1,000,000)
220 -173 -46
-173 239 -66
-46 -66 112


summ: Natufian 3 0.969593 0.787 0.164 0.049 220 -173 -46 239 -66 ...
112

fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
000 0 10 3.425 0.969593 0.787 0.164 0.049
001 1 11 35.050 0.000243118 0.810 0.190 0.000
010 1 11 102.876 4.80486e-17 0.909 0.000 0.091
100 1 11 2406.216 0 0.000 0.887 0.113
011 2 12 169.250 6.79447e-30 1.000 0.000 0.000
101 2 12 2450.283 0 0.000 1.000 0.000
110 2 12 4372.539 0 0.000 0.000 1.000
best pat: 000 0.969593 - -
best pat: 001 0.000243118 chi(nested): 31.626 p-value for nested model: 1.86956e-08
best pat: 011 6.79447e-30 chi(nested): 134.200 p-value for nested model: 4.93932e-31

coeffs: 0.787 0.164 0.049

## dscore:: f_4(Base, Fit, Rbase, right2)
## genstat:: f_4(Base, Fit, right1, right2)

details: Anatolia_Epipaleolithic DevilsGate_N 0.002009 4.722911
details: Iberomaurusian DevilsGate_N -0.004770 -12.365273
details: Tanzania_Kisese DevilsGate_N -0.018998 -39.089716
dscore: DevilsGate_N f4: -0.000137 Z: -0.364042

details: Anatolia_Epipaleolithic South_Africa_HG -0.000329 -1.059726
details: Iberomaurusian South_Africa_HG -0.000655 -2.344317
details: Tanzania_Kisese South_Africa_HG 0.003128 9.095621
dscore: South_Africa_HG f4: -0.000212 Z: -0.761439

details: Anatolia_Epipaleolithic Yana_UP 0.002418 5.608756
details: Iberomaurusian Yana_UP -0.005757 -14.981036
details: Tanzania_Kisese Yana_UP -0.020834 -42.291778
dscore: Yana_UP f4: -0.000067 Z: -0.176779

details: Anatolia_Epipaleolithic Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG 0.002264 5.291235
details: Iberomaurusian Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG -0.005065 -13.604317
details: Tanzania_Kisese Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG -0.019533 -41.331773
dscore: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG f4: -0.000011 Z: -0.029823

details: Anatolia_Epipaleolithic CHG 0.002644 5.865633
details: Iberomaurusian CHG -0.007218 -17.812343
details: Tanzania_Kisese CHG -0.022471 -44.055262
dscore: CHG f4: -0.000209 Z: -0.521493

details: Anatolia_Epipaleolithic ZlatyKun 0.001684 3.167792
details: Iberomaurusian ZlatyKun -0.005145 -12.244186
details: Tanzania_Kisese ZlatyKun -0.018205 -32.487327
dscore: ZlatyKun f4: -0.000415 Z: -0.895366

details: Anatolia_Epipaleolithic BachoKiro 0.001756 4.271885
details: Iberomaurusian BachoKiro -0.004339 -11.573724
details: Tanzania_Kisese BachoKiro -0.017328 -35.871696
dscore: BachoKiro f4: -0.000183 Z: -0.501463

details: Anatolia_Epipaleolithic Ekven_IA.SG 0.002130 5.294688
details: Iberomaurusian Ekven_IA.SG -0.005228 -13.958474
details: Tanzania_Kisese Ekven_IA.SG -0.019825 -43.794609
dscore: Ekven_IA.SG f4: -0.000158 Z: -0.441991

details: Anatolia_Epipaleolithic Russia_Afanasievo.SG 0.002643 6.081525
details: Iberomaurusian Russia_Afanasievo.SG -0.007477 -18.910368
details: Tanzania_Kisese Russia_Afanasievo.SG -0.023150 -47.382271
dscore: Russia_Afanasievo.SG f4: -0.000286 Z: -0.736012

details: Anatolia_Epipaleolithic Mota 0.000137 0.328502
details: Iberomaurusian Mota 0.000052 0.146568
details: Tanzania_Kisese Mota -0.002368 -5.217640
dscore: Mota f4: -0.000001 Z: -0.001466

details: Anatolia_Epipaleolithic Swiss_HG 0.003270 6.142628
details: Iberomaurusian Swiss_HG -0.007722 -15.949963
details: Tanzania_Kisese Swiss_HG -0.023986 -41.759417
dscore: Swiss_HG f4: 0.000126 Z: 0.265452

details: Anatolia_Epipaleolithic Morocco_EN -0.002072 -4.386734
details: Iberomaurusian Morocco_EN 0.015095 31.930365
details: Tanzania_Kisese Morocco_EN -0.019433 -37.337384
dscore: Morocco_EN f4: -0.000115 Z: -0.273579

gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG DevilsGate_N -0.364
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG South_Africa_HG -0.761
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG Yana_UP -0.177
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG -0.030
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG CHG -0.521
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG ZlatyKun -0.895
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG BachoKiro -0.501
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG Ekven_IA.SG -0.442
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG Russia_Afanasievo.SG -0.736
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG Mota -0.001
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG Swiss_HG 0.265
gendstat: Cameroon_SMA.SG Morocco_EN -0.274
gendstat: DevilsGate_N South_Africa_HG -0.202
gendstat: DevilsGate_N Yana_UP 0.197
gendstat: DevilsGate_N Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG 0.389
gendstat: DevilsGate_N CHG -0.179
gendstat: DevilsGate_N ZlatyKun -0.591
gendstat: DevilsGate_N BachoKiro -0.131
gendstat: DevilsGate_N Ekven_IA.SG -0.074
gendstat: DevilsGate_N Russia_Afanasievo.SG -0.394
gendstat: DevilsGate_N Mota 0.311
gendstat: DevilsGate_N Swiss_HG 0.573
gendstat: DevilsGate_N Morocco_EN 0.048
gendstat: South_Africa_HG Yana_UP 0.390
gendstat: South_Africa_HG Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG 0.543
gendstat: South_Africa_HG CHG 0.006
gendstat: South_Africa_HG ZlatyKun -0.450
gendstat: South_Africa_HG BachoKiro 0.080
gendstat: South_Africa_HG Ekven_IA.SG 0.152
gendstat: South_Africa_HG Russia_Afanasievo.SG -0.195
gendstat: South_Africa_HG Mota 0.573
gendstat: South_Africa_HG Swiss_HG 0.720
gendstat: South_Africa_HG Morocco_EN 0.223
gendstat: Yana_UP Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG 0.159
gendstat: Yana_UP CHG -0.352
gendstat: Yana_UP ZlatyKun -0.759
gendstat: Yana_UP BachoKiro -0.315
gendstat: Yana_UP Ekven_IA.SG -0.267
gendstat: Yana_UP Russia_Afanasievo.SG -0.587
gendstat: Yana_UP Mota 0.155
gendstat: Yana_UP Swiss_HG 0.418
gendstat: Yana_UP Morocco_EN -0.107
gendstat: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG CHG -0.501
gendstat: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG ZlatyKun -0.882
gendstat: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG BachoKiro -0.482
gendstat: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG Ekven_IA.SG -0.542
gendstat: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG Russia_Afanasievo.SG -0.763
gendstat: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG Mota 0.025
gendstat: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG Swiss_HG 0.301
gendstat: Bahamas_SouthAndros_Ceramic.SG Morocco_EN -0.235
gendstat: CHG ZlatyKun -0.419
gendstat: CHG BachoKiro 0.064
gendstat: CHG Ekven_IA.SG 0.138
gendstat: CHG Russia_Afanasievo.SG -0.203
gendstat: CHG Mota 0.462
gendstat: CHG Swiss_HG 0.704
gendstat: CHG Morocco_EN 0.199
gendstat: ZlatyKun BachoKiro 0.483
gendstat: ZlatyKun Ekven_IA.SG 0.592
gendstat: ZlatyKun Russia_Afanasievo.SG 0.284
gendstat: ZlatyKun Mota 0.858
gendstat: ZlatyKun Swiss_HG 1.023
gendstat: ZlatyKun Morocco_EN 0.585
gendstat: BachoKiro Ekven_IA.SG 0.074
gendstat: BachoKiro Russia_Afanasievo.SG -0.264
gendstat: BachoKiro Mota 0.432
gendstat: BachoKiro Swiss_HG 0.637
gendstat: BachoKiro Morocco_EN 0.150
gendstat: Ekven_IA.SG Russia_Afanasievo.SG -0.376
gendstat: Ekven_IA.SG Mota 0.389
gendstat: Ekven_IA.SG Swiss_HG 0.652
gendstat: Ekven_IA.SG Morocco_EN 0.095
gendstat: Russia_Afanasievo.SG Mota 0.655
gendstat: Russia_Afanasievo.SG Swiss_HG 0.926
gendstat: Russia_Afanasievo.SG Morocco_EN 0.373
gendstat: Mota Swiss_HG 0.242
gendstat: Mota Morocco_EN -0.248
gendstat: Swiss_HG Morocco_EN -0.465

Keneki20
01-19-2022, 10:23 PM
The ancient Egyptian samples currently available can be modeled in condensed form as ~80% BA/IA Israel and ~20% of the North-African Bellbeaker outliers. The latter aren't perfect proxies but they deliver the extra ANA that the Egyptians need.

Levant_N themselves have ~10% ANA on top of what Barcin_N has which is probably ~6%.

Can you speak more on the ANA ancestry in Barcin N? That’s taken me by surprise, because, before now, I thought it was essentially entirely Eurasian. That also surprises me, because it implies that Europeans (or, I suppose, most Western Eurasian populations?), in general, have African ancestry much in the same way that most African populations seem to have a little bit of hidden Eurasian ancestry.


The Natufians seem to be predominantly Pinarbasi-like with Taforalt-like and minor East African HG admixture. They seem to have closer to 10-14% net African affinity rather than 5-6%.

Concerning your earlier post about your wondering if the Natufian-like population in Egypt had more Iberomaurusian-related ancestry, I remember looking at a post (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?22015-The-Genomic-History-of-the-Middle-East&p=711498&viewfull=1#post711498) by Drobbah from late 2020, and in it, when comparing Horn African samples and Pastoral Neolithic samples, they seemed to have higher proposed ANA (as high as 18-19.5%) relative to their Proto-Natufian (Pinabarsi-like) ancestry after removing less relevant ancestries (e.g., IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N, ETH 4500BP, etc.) than the average amount of ANA/African v. Proto-Natufian suggested here for the Natufians themselves. I suppose I could be wrong, but that seems to give further evidence to what you’re wondering.

Ajeje Brazorf
01-19-2022, 10:27 PM
They seem to have closer to 10-14% net African affinity rather than 5-6%.

On Global25 I also get about 15%, but the fit is too high.

Aben Aboo
01-19-2022, 11:51 PM
deleted

Kale
01-20-2022, 12:15 AM
Can you speak more of the ANA ancestry in Barcin N? That’s taken me by surprise, because, before now, I thought it was essentially entirely Eurasian. That also surprises me, because it implies that Europeans (or, I suppose, most Western Eurasian populations?), in general, have African ancestry much in the same way that most African populations seem to have a little bit of hidden Eurasian ancestry.

It shouldn't be too surprising, some of the Taforalt guys are pre-M78, a close relative to European V13. We haven't found V13 or L618 in Anatolian farmers yet but surely it was there in at least small numbers.
All of the Anatolian farmers (except Boncuklu) show some level of ANA. Oddly enough one of the clearest demonstrations is by using ZlatyKun, who is pretty much equally related to all Eurasians except those with ANA ancestry.

alejandromb92
01-20-2022, 10:06 AM
I thought it was Taforalt that had Natufian, like EHG in PIE.

I am very interested in some simulated model with ANA.

Gentica277282
01-20-2022, 06:51 PM
I thought it was Taforalt that had Natufian, like EHG in PIE.

I am very interested in some simulated model with ANA.

I got one but you’ll have to pm me your cords then I’ll run you

Gentica277282
01-20-2022, 06:54 PM
I thought it was Taforalt that had Natufian, like EHG in PIE.

I am very interested in some simulated model with ANA.
Simulated samples are my friends I can’t share them
Target: Berber_MAR_TIZ:BerT9
Distance: 2.5552% / 0.02555199
45.4 Early_European_Farmer
24.4 Dzudzuana
21.0 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)
4.0 CMR_Shum_Laka_8000BP
4.0 Steppe_Pastoralist
1.2 Iran_Neolithic

Target: Berber_MAR_TIZ:BerT8
Distance: 2.9969% / 0.02996860
44.6 Early_European_Farmer
27.4 Dzudzuana
23.2 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)
2.6 CMR_Shum_Laka_8000BP
1.2 Ancient_Iberian_Hunter-Gatherer
1.0 Iran_Neolithic



Two of the highest ibm individuals on the data sheet

Average Moroccan north
Target: Moroccan_North
Distance: 1.8017% / 0.01801684
43.6 Early_European_Farmer
22.0 Dzudzuana
15.0 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)
9.0 Steppe_Pastoralist
5.8 CMR_Shum_Laka_8000BP
3.2 Iran_Neolithic
1.4 Western_Hunter-Gatherer

I highly doubt anybody has above 5 percent ana outside of north Africa. I’m talking modern populations here

Aben Aboo
01-20-2022, 07:56 PM
I highly doubt anybody has above 5 percent ana outside of north Africa. I’m talking modern populations here
Wow, how many ANA for canarian average with your model please?

Jack Johnson
01-20-2022, 09:41 PM
Deleted

Jack Johnson
01-20-2022, 09:41 PM
Can you speak more on the ANA ancestry in Barcin N? That’s taken me by surprise, because, before now, I thought it was essentially entirely Eurasian. That also surprises me, because it implies that Europeans (or, I suppose, most Western Eurasian populations?), in general, have African ancestry much in the same way that most African populations seem to have a little bit of hidden Eurasian ancestry.



Concerning your earlier post about your wondering if the Natufian-like population in Egypt had more Iberomaurusian-related ancestry, I remember looking at a post (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?22015-The-Genomic-History-of-the-Middle-East&p=711498&viewfull=1#post711498) by Drobbah from late 2020, and in it, when comparing Horn African samples and Pastoral Neolithic samples, they seemed to have higher proposed ANA (as high as 18-19.5%) relative to their Proto-Natufian (Pinabarsi-like) ancestry after removing less relevant ancestries (e.g., IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N, ETH 4500BP, etc.) than the average amount of ANA/African v. Proto-Natufian suggested here for the Natufians themselves. I suppose I could be wrong, but that seems to give further evidence to what you’re wondering.

The ANA/AEA ancestry in both Africans and West Eurasians, parallels the ANE/IUP ancestry in West Eurasians, Native Americans, and East Eurasians. Like the latter, ANA/AEA is a deep, shared ancestral population, one which two-three divergent, large clusters derive ancestry from (West Eurasians, North Africans, and East Africans). This could explain the shared Y-DNA E, D, A, and mtDNA L lineages in Eurasians and Africans. Multiple waves of this kind of ancestry are likely as well, hence the divergent subclades.

Gentica277282
01-20-2022, 10:47 PM
Wow, how many ANA for canarian average with your model please?

I’ll run them now for you

Gentica277282
01-20-2022, 10:54 PM
Wow, how many ANA for canarian average with your model please?

Target: Spanish_Canarias:HG01695
Distance: 2.0150% / 0.02015041
56.8 Early_European_Farmer
23.8 Steppe_Pastoralist
11.2 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
5.2 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)
2.4 Dzudzuana
0.6 CMR_Shum_Laka_3000BP

Target: Spanish_Canarias:HG01694
Distance: 2.3667% / 0.02366736
53.4 Early_European_Farmer
28.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
9.2 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
4.6 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)
3.6 Dzudzuana
1.0 CMR_Shum_Laka_3000BP

Target: Spanish_Canarias:CAN956
Distance: 2.3565% / 0.02356472
52.0 Early_European_Farmer
28.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
8.8 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
6.4 Dzudzuana
4.2 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)
0.4 CMR_Shum_Laka_3000BP

Target: Spanish_Canarias:CAN924
Distance: 2.7485% / 0.02748537
52.0 Early_European_Farmer
27.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
6.8 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)
6.6 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
4.8 Dzudzuana
1.6 Iran_Neolithic
1.0 CMR_Shum_Laka_8000BP

Target: Spanish_Canarias:CAN9
Distance: 2.3104% / 0.02310430
50.4 Early_European_Farmer
32.0 Steppe_Pastoralist
9.2 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
5.0 Dzudzuana
3.4 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)

Target: Spanish_Canarias:CAN884
Distance: 2.3937% / 0.02393716
52.8 Early_European_Farmer
31.4 Steppe_Pastoralist
9.0 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
3.6 Dzudzuana
3.2 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)

Target: Spanish_Canarias:CAN4
Distance: 2.5631% / 0.02563076
57.8 Early_European_Farmer
26.6 Steppe_Pastoralist
9.8 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
5.2 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)
0.4 Ancient_American
0.2 Dzudzuana

Target: Spanish_Canarias:CAN3
Distance: 1.8215% / 0.01821477
53.4 Early_European_Farmer
28.8 Steppe_Pastoralist
10.0 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
4.6 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)
2.0 Dzudzuana
1.0 Ancient_American
0.2 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

Target: Spanish_Canarias:CAN2
Distance: 1.7177% / 0.01717692
51.4 Early_European_Farmer
27.6 Steppe_Pastoralist
6.8 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
4.6 Dzudzuana
4.4 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)
3.6 CMR_Shum_Laka_8000BP
1.6 Ancient_Iberian_Hunter-Gatherer

Target: Spanish_Canarias:CAN1920
Distance: 2.2328% / 0.02232814
53.8 Early_European_Farmer
25.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
12.0 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
4.2 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)
2.8 Dzudzuana
2.0 CMR_Shum_Laka_8000BP

Target: Spanish_Canarias:CAN19
Distance: 2.8645% / 0.02864515
48.2 Early_European_Farmer
26.6 Steppe_Pastoralist
10.2 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
9.8 Dzudzuana
5.2 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)

Target: Spanish_Canarias:CAN18
Distance: 2.2949% / 0.02294938
54.8 Early_European_Farmer
25.4 Steppe_Pastoralist
12.4 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
3.6 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)
2.0 Dzudzuana
1.0 CMR_Shum_Laka_8000BP
0.8 Eastern_Hunter-Gatherer

Target: Spanish_Canarias:CAN17
Distance: 2.4478% / 0.02447752
55.0 Early_European_Farmer
29.6 Steppe_Pastoralist
7.8 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
3.4 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)
2.2 CMR_Shum_Laka_3000BP
2.0 Dzudzuana

Target: Spanish_Canarias:CAN13
Distance: 2.8349% / 0.02834872
53.0 Early_European_Farmer
23.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
10.0 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
5.6 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)
4.4 Dzudzuana
2.0 CMR_Shum_Laka_3000BP
1.8 Iran_Neolithic

Target: Spanish_Canarias:CAN1220
Distance: 1.8566% / 0.01856636
48.8 Early_European_Farmer
32.6 Steppe_Pastoralist
6.6 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
5.4 Dzudzuana
4.2 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)
2.4 CMR_Shum_Laka_3000BP

Target: Spanish_Canarias:CAN12
Distance: 3.0619% / 0.03061943
53.8 Early_European_Farmer
31.0 Steppe_Pastoralist
9.0 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
4.6 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)
1.0 Dzudzuana
0.6 CMR_Shum_Laka_3000BP

Target: Spanish_Canarias:CAN11
Distance: 2.1708% / 0.02170850
54.2 Early_European_Farmer
26.6 Steppe_Pastoralist
9.2 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
4.8 Dzudzuana
4.0 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)
0.8 Iran_Neolithic
0.4 CMR_Shum_Laka_8000BP

Target: Spanish_Canarias:CAN10
Distance: 3.1614% / 0.03161433
54.8 Early_European_Farmer
24.0 Steppe_Pastoralist
10.0 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
4.6 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)
3.8 Dzudzuana
2.8 CMR_Shum_Laka_8000BP

Target: Spanish_Canarias:CAN1
Distance: 2.1926% / 0.02192590
53.6 Early_European_Farmer
25.4 Steppe_Pastoralist
7.4 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
5.0 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)
5.0 Dzudzuana
3.6 CMR_Shum_Laka_8000BP

Aben Aboo
01-20-2022, 10:57 PM
I’ll run them now for you

Excellent, you have made all samples, interesting for to make comparison, thank you very much.

Keneki20
01-22-2022, 12:10 PM
I highly doubt anybody has above 5 percent ana outside of north Africa. I’m talking modern populations here

Assuming all the 2020 Shum Laka paper’s estimates are correct, then Shum Laka residents ~8,000 years ago may have already had as much as ~16% ANA even in spite of their minor Central-African Hunter-Gatherer ancestry. And those residents appear to have been closer to modern West Africans than later pre-Bantu Shum Laka residents.

Otherwise, to cite Drobbah again, he estimated (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?23857-Questions-about-Amazigh&p=780998&viewfull=1#post780998) the proper ANA ancestry (i.e., not ANA-like, which, from what I’ve heard, seems to make up most Sub-Saharan Africans’ ancestry, but rather, ANA proper) present in a few different African populations in a test run. He arrived at percentages between 15 and 16% for Yorubas and Sudanese7 and 11% for Mota.

Exact figures may vary, but ANA doesn’t seem all that restricted, which was a premise I used to believe as well.

alejandromb92
01-22-2022, 12:45 PM
Target: Spanish_Canarias:HG01695
Distance: 2.0150% / 0.02015041
56.8 Early_European_Farmer
23.8 Steppe_Pastoralist
11.2 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
5.2 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)
2.4 Dzudzuana
0.6 CMR_Shum_Laka_3000BP

Target: Spanish_Canarias:HG01694
Distance: 2.3667% / 0.02366736
53.4 Early_European_Farmer
28.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
9.2 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
4.6 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)
3.6 Dzudzuana
1.0 CMR_Shum_Laka_3000BP

Target: Spanish_Canarias:CAN956
Distance: 2.3565% / 0.02356472
52.0 Early_European_Farmer
28.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
8.8 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
6.4 Dzudzuana
4.2 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)
0.4 CMR_Shum_Laka_3000BP

Target: Spanish_Canarias:CAN924
Distance: 2.7485% / 0.02748537
52.0 Early_European_Farmer
27.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
6.8 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)
6.6 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
4.8 Dzudzuana
1.6 Iran_Neolithic
1.0 CMR_Shum_Laka_8000BP

Target: Spanish_Canarias:CAN9
Distance: 2.3104% / 0.02310430
50.4 Early_European_Farmer
32.0 Steppe_Pastoralist
9.2 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
5.0 Dzudzuana
3.4 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)

Target: Spanish_Canarias:CAN884
Distance: 2.3937% / 0.02393716
52.8 Early_European_Farmer
31.4 Steppe_Pastoralist
9.0 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
3.6 Dzudzuana
3.2 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)

Target: Spanish_Canarias:CAN4
Distance: 2.5631% / 0.02563076
57.8 Early_European_Farmer
26.6 Steppe_Pastoralist
9.8 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
5.2 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)
0.4 Ancient_American
0.2 Dzudzuana

Target: Spanish_Canarias:CAN3
Distance: 1.8215% / 0.01821477
53.4 Early_European_Farmer
28.8 Steppe_Pastoralist
10.0 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
4.6 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)
2.0 Dzudzuana
1.0 Ancient_American
0.2 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

Target: Spanish_Canarias:CAN2
Distance: 1.7177% / 0.01717692
51.4 Early_European_Farmer
27.6 Steppe_Pastoralist
6.8 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
4.6 Dzudzuana
4.4 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)
3.6 CMR_Shum_Laka_8000BP
1.6 Ancient_Iberian_Hunter-Gatherer

Target: Spanish_Canarias:CAN1920
Distance: 2.2328% / 0.02232814
53.8 Early_European_Farmer
25.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
12.0 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
4.2 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)
2.8 Dzudzuana
2.0 CMR_Shum_Laka_8000BP

Target: Spanish_Canarias:CAN19
Distance: 2.8645% / 0.02864515
48.2 Early_European_Farmer
26.6 Steppe_Pastoralist
10.2 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
9.8 Dzudzuana
5.2 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)

Target: Spanish_Canarias:CAN18
Distance: 2.2949% / 0.02294938
54.8 Early_European_Farmer
25.4 Steppe_Pastoralist
12.4 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
3.6 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)
2.0 Dzudzuana
1.0 CMR_Shum_Laka_8000BP
0.8 Eastern_Hunter-Gatherer

Target: Spanish_Canarias:CAN17
Distance: 2.4478% / 0.02447752
55.0 Early_European_Farmer
29.6 Steppe_Pastoralist
7.8 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
3.4 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)
2.2 CMR_Shum_Laka_3000BP
2.0 Dzudzuana

Target: Spanish_Canarias:CAN13
Distance: 2.8349% / 0.02834872
53.0 Early_European_Farmer
23.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
10.0 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
5.6 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)
4.4 Dzudzuana
2.0 CMR_Shum_Laka_3000BP
1.8 Iran_Neolithic

Target: Spanish_Canarias:CAN1220
Distance: 1.8566% / 0.01856636
48.8 Early_European_Farmer
32.6 Steppe_Pastoralist
6.6 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
5.4 Dzudzuana
4.2 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)
2.4 CMR_Shum_Laka_3000BP

Target: Spanish_Canarias:CAN12
Distance: 3.0619% / 0.03061943
53.8 Early_European_Farmer
31.0 Steppe_Pastoralist
9.0 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
4.6 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)
1.0 Dzudzuana
0.6 CMR_Shum_Laka_3000BP

Target: Spanish_Canarias:CAN11
Distance: 2.1708% / 0.02170850
54.2 Early_European_Farmer
26.6 Steppe_Pastoralist
9.2 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
4.8 Dzudzuana
4.0 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)
0.8 Iran_Neolithic
0.4 CMR_Shum_Laka_8000BP

Target: Spanish_Canarias:CAN10
Distance: 3.1614% / 0.03161433
54.8 Early_European_Farmer
24.0 Steppe_Pastoralist
10.0 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
4.6 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)
3.8 Dzudzuana
2.8 CMR_Shum_Laka_8000BP

Target: Spanish_Canarias:CAN1
Distance: 2.1926% / 0.02192590
53.6 Early_European_Farmer
25.4 Steppe_Pastoralist
7.4 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
5.0 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)
5.0 Dzudzuana
3.6 CMR_Shum_Laka_8000BP

Please can you share the Dzuzuana coords?

Gentica277282
01-22-2022, 01:51 PM
Please can you share the Dzuzuana coords?

Sorry can’t share it, it doesn’t belong to me if you want to me run you just send me your cords

Gentica277282
01-22-2022, 01:53 PM
Assuming all the 2020 Shum Laka paper’s estimates are correct, then Shum Laka residents ~8,000 years ago may have already had as much as ~16% ANA even in spite of their minor Central-African Hunter-Gatherer ancestry. And those residents appear to have been closer to modern West Africans than later pre-Bantu Shum Laka residents.

Otherwise, to cite Drobbah again, he estimated (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?23857-Questions-about-Amazigh&p=780998&viewfull=1#post780998) the proper ANA ancestry (i.e., not ANA-like, which, from what I’ve heard, seems to make up most Sub-Saharan Africans’ ancestry, but rather, ANA proper) present in a few different African populations in a test run. He arrived at percentages between 15 and 16% for Yorubas and Sudanese7 and 11% for Mota.

Exact figures may vary, but ANA doesn’t seem all that restricted, which was a premise I used to believe as well.

The simulated samples his using is not correct and overestimates ana ancestry. A lot of people disagree with the shum laka paper and had issues with it. If you want me to run any populations let me know and I can do that.

Right now we don’t have a sample resembling basal west African so we cannot estimate the percentage in these populations, I’m unsure if anyone has created an accurate simulated basal west African sample so we can get an idea until then we will have to wait and see.

Just to add to that I would like to see some ancient Neolithic arab samples as well which will help clear some things up as well

Tz85
01-22-2022, 02:41 PM
E1b1b1a1a E-V12* is definitely Egyptian, Natufian for sure!

drobbah
01-22-2022, 02:50 PM
E1b1b1a1a E-V12* is definitely Egyptian, Natufian for sure!
E-V12 predated the Egyptian ethnic group and there's zero evidence that supports your idea that E-V12 was Natufian

Tz85
01-22-2022, 02:55 PM
E-V12 predated the Egyptian ethnic group and there's zero evidence that supports your idea that E-V12 was Natufian

Undifferentiated E-V12* lineages (not E-V32 or E-M224, so therefore named "E-V12*") peak in frequency among Southern Egyptians (up to 74.5%).[6] The subclades are also scattered widely in small amounts in both Northern Africa and Europe, but with very little sign in Western Asia, apart from Turkey.

Tz85
01-22-2022, 02:59 PM
E-V12 predated the Egyptian ethnic group and there's zero evidence that supports your idea that E-V12 was Natufian

E-V12* peaks in Southern Egypt at 74.5%.

Beniamino Trombetta (2015). "Phylogeographic refinement and large scale genotyping of human Y chromosome haplogroup E provide new insights into the dispersal of early pastoralists in the African continent"

drobbah
01-22-2022, 03:09 PM
Undifferentiated E-V12* lineages (not E-V32 or E-M224, so therefore named "E-V12*") peak in frequency among Southern Egyptians (up to 74.5%).[6] The subclades are also scattered widely in small amounts in both Northern Africa and Europe, but with very little sign in Western Asia, apart from Turkey.
E-V12 has three major branches: E-CTS693,E-Y2863 (E-V32 falls under this branch), & E-FGC51357.You will find Egyptians,Sudanese & Sahelians in all branches.Also one of the 2000 BCE Kenyan Pastoralists (I8904) ended up being E-V12 as well as a bunch of those Nubian MA samples.

Tz85
01-22-2022, 03:15 PM
E-V12 has three major branches: E-CTS693,E-Y2863 (E-V32 falls under this branch), & E-FGC51357.You will find Egyptians,Sudanese & Sahelians in all branches.Also one of the 2000 BCE Kenyan Pastoralists (I8904) ended up being E-V12 as well as a bunch of those Nubian MA samples.

And yet, 74.5% of Southern Egyptians we're undifferentiated E-V12*. I idea that E-V12 pre dates the Egyptian ethnic group, doesn't mean they're not E-V12*, cause clearly they are lol.

drobbah
01-22-2022, 03:19 PM
And yet, 74.5% of Southern Egyptians we're undifferentiated E-V12*. I idea that E-V12 pre dates the Egyptian ethnic group, doesn't mean they're not E-V12*, cause clearly they are lol.
No such thing of undifferentiated E-V12 bud

Tz85
01-22-2022, 03:21 PM
E-V12 has three major branches: E-CTS693,E-Y2863 (E-V32 falls under this branch), & E-FGC51357.You will find Egyptians,Sudanese & Sahelians in all branches.Also one of the 2000 BCE Kenyan Pastoralists (I8904) ended up being E-V12 as well as a bunch of those Nubian MA samples.

E-V12* Nubian, Sudanese samples only peaked at 20%, as apposed to 74.5% in Southern Egypt. Logically, E-V12* was brought to Nubia and Sudan through Southern Egypt.

Tz85
01-22-2022, 03:23 PM
No such thing of undifferentiated E-V12 bud

LOL what?

drobbah
01-22-2022, 03:24 PM
E-V12* Nubian, Sudanese samples only peaked at 20%, as apposed to 74.5% in Southern Egypt. Logically, E-V12* was brought to Nubia and Sudan through Southern Egypt.
Egyptians have more E-V12 diversity then the Sudanese.Even within E-V32 the Egyptians have more subclade diversity.Let me know when you find this special Southern Egyptian E-V12* tho

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V12/

Tz85
01-22-2022, 03:28 PM
Egyptians have more E-V12 diversity then the Sudanese.Even within E-V32 the Egyptians have more subclade diversity.Let me know when you find this special Southern Egyptian E-V12* tho

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V12/

What's that below E-V12 on that tree? OH YEAH E-V12*. You just said E-V12* doesn't exist, yet it's right there on the tree. Credibility= 0

Tz85
01-22-2022, 03:29 PM
Egyptians have more E-V12 diversity then the Sudanese.Even within E-V32 the Egyptians have more subclade diversity.Let me know when you find this special Southern Egyptian E-V12* tho

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V12/

I'm not talking about E-V12, I'm talking about E-V12*. Apparently you're lost here.

drobbah
01-22-2022, 03:31 PM
I'm not talking about E-V12, I'm talking about E-V12*. Apparently you're lost here.
Like I said before, let us know when you find this Southern Egyptian E-V12* because I can't seem to find them anywhere

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V12/

drobbah
01-22-2022, 03:36 PM
What's that below E-V12 on that tree? OH YEAH E-V12*. You just said E-V12* doesn't exist, yet it's right there on the tree. Credibility= 0
Yet no one is under that clade...everyone else belongs to the three major branches I mentioned earlier.Have you seen any Southern Egyptians that took a deep test and ended up E-V12*?

Tz85
01-22-2022, 03:36 PM
Like I said before, let us know when you find this Southern Egyptian E-V12* because I can't seem to find them anywhere

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V12/


Read...I'm not talking about E-V12, I'm talking about E-V12*. Clearly you don't know what you're talking about, and that's ok. You didn't even know that E-V12* existed on the ytree, even though it's literally right there. E-V12* was brought to Nubia and Sudan through Southern Egypt. You can argue with Cruciani and Trombetta if you'd like, maybe read their papers.

Undifferentiated E-V12* lineages Edit
Undifferentiated E-V12* lineages (not E-V32 or E-M224, so therefore named "E-V12*") peak in frequency among Southern Egyptians (up to 74.5%).[19] The subclades are also scattered widely in small amounts in both Northern Africa and Europe, but with very little sign in Western Asia, apart from Turkey.[2] These E-V12* lineages were formerly included (along with many E-V22* lineages[Note 1]) in Cruciani et al.'s original (2004) "delta cluster", which he had defined using Y-STR profiles. With the discovery of the defining SNP, Cruciani et al. (2007) reported that V12* was found in its highest concentrations in Egypt, especially Southern Egypt. Hassan et al. (2008) report a significant presence of E-V12* in neighboring Sudan, including 5/33 Copts and 5/39 Nubians. E-V12* made up approximately 20% of the Sudanese E-M78. They propose that the E-V12 and E-V22 sub-clades of E-M78 might have been brought to Sudan from their place of origin in North Africa after the progressive desertification of the Sahara around 6,000–8,000 years ago. Sudden climate change might have forced several Neolithic cultures/people to migrate northward to the Mediterranean and southward to the Sahel and the Nile Valley.

Tz85
01-22-2022, 03:39 PM
Yet no one is under that clade...everyone else belongs to the three major branches I mentioned earlier.Have you seen any Southern Egyptians that took a deep test and ended up E-V12*?

Have fun reading...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4524485/

Beniamino Trombetta (2015). "Phylogeographic refinement and large scale genotyping of human Y chromosome haplogroup E provide new insights into the dispersal of early pastoralists in the African continent". Genome Biology and Evolution.

drobbah
01-22-2022, 03:41 PM
Read...I'm not talking about E-V12, I'm talking about E-V12*. Clearly you don't know what you're talking about, and that's ok. You didn't even know that E-V12* existed on the ytree, even though it's literally right there. E-V12* was brought to Nubia and Sudan through Southern Egypt. You can argue with Cruciani and Trombetta if you'd like, maybe read their papers.

Undifferentiated E-V12* lineages Edit
Undifferentiated E-V12* lineages (not E-V32 or E-M224, so therefore named "E-V12*") peak in frequency among Southern Egyptians (up to 74.5%).[19] The subclades are also scattered widely in small amounts in both Northern Africa and Europe, but with very little sign in Western Asia, apart from Turkey.[2] These E-V12* lineages were formerly included (along with many E-V22* lineages[Note 1]) in Cruciani et al.'s original (2004) "delta cluster", which he had defined using Y-STR profiles. With the discovery of the defining SNP, Cruciani et al. (2007) reported that V12* was found in its highest concentrations in Egypt, especially Southern Egypt. Hassan et al. (2008) report a significant presence of E-V12* in neighboring Sudan, including 5/33 Copts and 5/39 Nubians. E-V12* made up approximately 20% of the Sudanese E-M78. They propose that the E-V12 and E-V22 sub-clades of E-M78 might have been brought to Sudan from their place of origin in North Africa after the progressive desertification of the Sahara around 6,000–8,000 years ago. Sudden climate change might have forced several Neolithic cultures/people to migrate northward to the Mediterranean and southward to the Sahel and the Nile Valley.
You're copying and pasting from wikipedia and you expect me to take you serious.I have yet to see a single individual let alone a Egyptian or Sudanese for that matter that ended up E-V12* after taking a deep y-dna test and not belonging to any of the three downstream lineages.Why don't you bring me something more then copy and pasted Wikipedia entries from outdated studies

Tz85
01-22-2022, 03:43 PM
You're copying and pasting from wikipedia and you expect me to take you serious.I have yet to see a single individual let alone a Egyptian or Sudanese for that matter that ended up E-V12* after taking a deep y-dna test and not belonging to any of the three downstream lineages.Why don't you bring me something more then copy and pasted Wikipedia entries from outdated studies


You literally just said their is no such thing as E-V12*, yet it's right on the ytree, and you wanna talk about credibility?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4524485/

Tz85
01-22-2022, 03:51 PM
You're copying and pasting from wikipedia and you expect me to take you serious.I have yet to see a single individual let alone a Egyptian or Sudanese for that matter that ended up E-V12* after taking a deep y-dna test and not belonging to any of the three downstream lineages.Why don't you bring me something more then copy and pasted Wikipedia entries from outdated studies

Btw I'm E-V12*. After a back bone, deep clade test. I must be the only E-V12* on earth. Lucky me.

drobbah
01-22-2022, 03:53 PM
You literally just said their is no such thing as E-V12*, yet it's right on the ytree, and you wanna talk about credibility?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4524485/
Yes,there is no individual so far that took a deep test and ended up with that and anyone even little familiar with how y-dna testing works will not actually believe that there is some widespread Southern Egyptian E-V12* because eventually they would be assigned their own subclade under E-V12.Yet that's not the case....so the imperative is on you to find this special undiscovered yet widespread Upper Egyptian/Nubian variant of E-V12 because there is plenty of evidence on yfull and Familytreedna that disproves this Southern Egyptian E-V12* nonsense that you keep copying and pasting

drobbah
01-22-2022, 03:54 PM
Btw I'm E-V12*. After a back bone, deep clade test. I must be the only E-V12* on earth. Lucky me.
Well all that means is that you are extremely divergent! Congratulations tho but you still need to find me some Egyptian or Sudanese that is E-V12* like yourself.

Tz85
01-22-2022, 03:57 PM
Well all that means is that you are extremely divergent! Congratulations tho but you still need to find me some Egyptian or Sudanese that is E-V12* like yourself.

Yes I understand that scientific papers mean nothing to you, you'd prefer to make things up out of thin air. Nice! The Egyptians we're from Ireland!

Tz85
01-22-2022, 04:19 PM
Well all that means is that you are extremely divergent! Congratulations tho but you still need to find me some Egyptian or Sudanese that is E-V12* like yourself.

I literally quoted 2 scientist's (Trombetta and Cruciani), posted papers. You sat here and gave your opinion, as if you have some sort of credibility, not even knowing that E-V12* existed on the ytree. I guess ytree makes up fake sub-clades for fun, I guess they put haplogroups on the tree that no one has ever tested positive to.

Gentica277282
01-22-2022, 04:42 PM
I literally quoted 2 scientist's (Trombetta and Cruciani), posted papers. You sat here and gave your opinion, as if you have some sort of credibility, not even knowing that E-V12* existed on the ytree. I guess ytree makes up fake sub-clades for fun, I guess they put haplogroups on the tree that no one has ever tested positive to.

Yfull is legit

Moderator
01-22-2022, 05:02 PM
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This thread is being monitored.


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SrananÁao
01-22-2022, 07:54 PM
No offense to anybody but the fact that so many threads that even mention Egypt. Get a warning or are closed is sad. That being said if ANA can be associated with the Aterian. It might have been a key component in the genesis of North and West Africans. They were widespread throughout North Africa and the Sahara. But archeology also showed marked variation in various regions. There is evidence that during the earlier desertification of the Sahara. Aterians moved into sub Saharan West Africa and North into coastal North Africa. We don't know what effect that had on these regions. But it might explain at least part of the affinity between ANA and deep West African ancestry.

Gentica277282
01-22-2022, 10:31 PM
No offense to anybody but the fact that so many threads that even mention Egypt. Get a warning or are closed is sad. That being said if ANA can be associated with the Aterian. It might have been a key component in the genesis of North and West Africans. They were widespread throughout North Africa and the Sahara. But archeology also showed marked variation in various regions. There is evidence that during the earlier desertification of the Sahara. Aterians moved into sub Saharan West Africa and North into coastal North Africa. We don't know what effect that had on these regions. But it might explain at least part of the affinity between ANA and deep West African ancestry.

Let’s reserve judgement until actual older west African samples show up, then we will know the answer we just have to patient

Gentica277282
01-22-2022, 11:23 PM
Modelling Yoruba with shum laka and simulated ana

Target: Yoruba
Distance: 23.0381% / 0.23038129
89.6 CMR_Shum_Laka_8000BP
10.4 Ancestral_North-African(DZU-55%-45%)


Still a relatively high distance

With ibm:

Target: Yoruba
Distance: 23.6318% / 0.23631791
90.0 CMR_Shum_Laka_8000BP
10.0 Iberomaurusian

Kale
01-23-2022, 08:01 AM
No offense to anybody but the fact that so many threads that even mention Egypt. Get a warning or are closed is sad. That being said if ANA can be associated with the Aterian. It might have been a key component in the genesis of North and West Africans. They were widespread throughout North Africa and the Sahara. But archeology also showed marked variation in various regions. There is evidence that during the earlier desertification of the Sahara. Aterians moved into sub Saharan West Africa and North into coastal North Africa. We don't know what effect that had on these regions. But it might explain at least part of the affinity between ANA and deep West African ancestry.

I think Aterian began far too long ago to be responsible for ANA-specifically. It may be the basal West African lineage, or it could be something else branching off somewhere between South-African-HG and the ANA/OOA clade.
Personally I'm leaning towards the second option, in qpgraph giving Taforalt such an input pushes them away from Mota which in turn allows non-zero drift on a nice branch that sort of mirrors y-hg E branching.

Gentica277282
01-26-2022, 01:07 AM
I decided to run myself on a model including a copt Egyptian to see if I would score any.


Distance: 1.4356% / 0.01435637
58.6 Saharawi-Mozabite-Moroccan
17.8 Coptic-Egyptian
12.4 Bedouin-Saudi-Yemenite
5.2 Esan-Igbo-Yoruba
4.4 Basque
0.8 Cachi-Colla-LaPaz
0.8 Papuan-Kosipe-Koinanbe

If anyone has any copt cords they can post so I can try them out to see if it’s consistently taking away from arab dna

chocrafter
01-28-2022, 11:09 PM
What does the need of a Levantine proxy mean? islamic conquest associated admixture?

Gentica277282
01-28-2022, 11:38 PM
What does the need of a Levantine proxy mean? islamic conquest associated admixture?

Part of it

chocrafter
01-28-2022, 11:41 PM
Part of it

It could also just be geography, modern copts originating mainly in middle-upper egypt would lack it due to their location, what would it be in that case though?

Gentica277282
01-28-2022, 11:44 PM
It could also just be geography, modern copts originating mainly in middle-upper egypt would lack it due to their location, what would it be in that case though?

We would have to wait until more samples are discovered. I’m still surprised they haven’t found Arabian hunter gathers or any sort of ancient Arabian dna

lifeisdandy
01-29-2022, 06:19 AM
Guys wouldn't it possible that copts had mixed with people prior to the Islamic entrance? We are acting like copts have been the same thing for 5000 years. Are we factoring in nabataeans? Arab Christian tribes? Amorites? Other west Asian groups? I find it hard to believe that we are the exact same since the old dynasty or older. Egypt would have attracted people from so many places. We are only as pure as the last 1500 years only. I'm no expert but I just cannot wrap my head around it.

nee4speed111
01-29-2022, 06:56 AM
Guys wouldn't it possible that copts had mixed with people prior to the Islamic entrance? We are acting like copts have been the same thing for 5000 years. Are we factoring in nabataeans? Arab Christian tribes? Amorites? Other west Asian groups? I find it hard to believe that we are the exact same since the old dynasty or older. Egypt would have attracted people from so many places. We are only as pure as the last 1500 years only. I'm no expert but I just cannot wrap my head around it.

I don't believe anybody has claimed copts are the same over the dynastic period, we know for a fact that Iran-Chl ancestry is something that was intrusive to Egypt considering it starts to appear in the Chalcolithic period in the levant, so I expect that to be the biggest change in the Dynastic period. However, what we can say is that based on Egyptian genomes we currently have from the late period approx 2600 years ago, Copts are essentially a two way mix between Late period Egyptians and Christian Nubians. Arab Christian tribes had almost no impact, unless they somehow time travelled to before Christianity began and admixed with those late period Egyptian samples.

I would probably venture a guess based on the data we have now from the region, that Copts are going to be very similar to New Kingdom Egyptians and will derive the majority of their ancestry from them, I would probably further venture that the typical Coptic genotype is something that is born so to speak during the Middle Kingdom era with the influx of Asiatics, with it being a gradual admix process starting from the late Old Kingdom period and continuing on until the end of the dynastic era. Even then though, its not like total replacement took place, there will still be a large amount of Old Kingdom type ancestry in Middle & New Kingdom Egyptians.

Given enough time, no ethnic group on the planet is "pure" as humans did move around considerably and large scale technological leaps like the Neolithic revolution or advanced metal working seem to have been usually accompanied by admixture events, but nobody on this thread has claimed that we are "pure" or untouched representatives of OK or older Egyptians. All I tried to do when creating this thread, is model our ancestry based on the current ancient samples we have & based on that, there hasn't been signficiant admixture except for with Nubians in the past 2500~ years or so.

nee4speed111
02-02-2022, 07:33 AM
Some more data, this time analyzing MtDNA of Egyptians. Here is the mitochondrial haplogroups for 327 Egyptian individuals from the Egyptian Genome project.

https://egyptian-genome.org/img/HG_327_samples.png

Using the same format & thanks to the updated 23andme Coptic component, here is the MtDNA of a total of 278 Copts that I match with on 23andme, who all score 90%+ Coptic on 23andme. I have used the same format as the above.I have removed all doubles.

48252

Here are the numbers:

H 21.94%
T 15.83%
U 14.75%
R 10.43%
L 10.07%
M 9.71%
N 6.47%
J 5.04%
K 3.96%
I 1.08%
W 0.36%
X 0.36%

Dehlisandwich
02-10-2022, 09:33 PM
It shouldn't be too surprising, some of the Taforalt guys are pre-M78, a close relative to European V13. We haven't found V13 or L618 in Anatolian farmers yet but surely it was there in at least small numbers.
All of the Anatolian farmers (except Boncuklu) show some level of ANA. Oddly enough one of the clearest demonstrations is by using ZlatyKun, who is pretty much equally related to all Eurasians except those with ANA ancestry.


Somewhat off topic but with the possibility of most West Eurasian populations having some degree of African ancestry (ANA/AEA), does this essentially weaken the idea of a Basal Eurasian lineage contributing to ancient and Modern West Eurasians, or even existing in the first place?
Cause from the way I understood it Basal Eurasian ancestry was suppose to explain the depressed Neanderthal ancestry in later ancient West Eurasian remains compared to earlier ones. They're also supposedly basal to both West and Eastern non Africans. But remains such Zlaty Kun, who also is basal to both West and Eastern non Africans show no special relationship with the Basal Eurasian ancestry carried by ancient and modern West Eurasian populations.

So could it be that there were multiple kinds of "Basal Eurasians" or is what we call Basal Eurasian all just an artifact of later African admixture?

Mnemonics
02-11-2022, 03:06 AM
It shouldn't be too surprising, some of the Taforalt guys are pre-M78, a close relative to European V13. We haven't found V13 or L618 in Anatolian farmers yet but surely it was there in at least small numbers.
All of the Anatolian farmers (except Boncuklu) show some level of ANA. Oddly enough one of the clearest demonstrations is by using ZlatyKun, who is pretty much equally related to all Eurasians except those with ANA ancestry.

They seem to have received their ANA as part of the Levantine admixture that differentiates Barcin from Boncuklu_N. Boncuklu_N.SG seems to either pre-date or entirely avoided this extra Levantine admixture which seems to be present in all the EEF populations.

lifeisdandy
02-11-2022, 07:13 AM
Some more data, this time analyzing MtDNA of Egyptians. Here is the mitochondrial haplogroups for 327 Egyptian individuals from the Egyptian Genome project.

https://egyptian-genome.org/img/HG_327_samples.png

Using the same format & thanks to the updated 23andme Coptic component, here is the MtDNA of a total of 278 Copts that I match with on 23andme, who all score 90%+ Coptic on 23andme. I have used the same format as the above.I have removed all doubles.

48252

Here are the numbers:

H 21.94%
T 15.83%
U 14.75%
R 10.43%
L 10.07%
M 9.71%
N 6.47%
J 5.04%
K 3.96%
I 1.08%
W 0.36%
X 0.36%

Mine is T2b. It's a mesopotamian/west Asian lineage but quite popular for copts as per the chart. Thank you for this!