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Tolan
05-12-2014, 01:41 PM
Through maps of R-L21 DNA project:

Sub-clades known under L21, are mostly british.
However, some sub-clades seem more important in continant than in the British Isles:
DF63
FGC5496
DF23
Z251 (L583 in East Europe)
Z253 and Z2534
CTS3386 (East Europe)

1860

Dubhthach
05-12-2014, 02:15 PM
Through maps of R-L21 DNA project:

Sub-clades known under L21, are mostly british.


Mostly British and Irish would be more correct thing to say. Regarding your division of continent into West/East what's your borderline between the two?

-Paul
(DF41+)

Tolan
05-12-2014, 02:33 PM
Mostly British and Irish would be more correct thing to say. Regarding your division of continent into West/East what's your borderline between the two?

-Paul
(DF41+)

The borderline that I used for Western Europe: from Sweden to Italy, via Germany.
The Eastern Europe: East of this border

Wolds Wanderer
05-12-2014, 04:13 PM
We currently have two continental occurrences of FGC5496. In addition, we have representatives from Scotland, Ireland, the Isle of Man and England. From a separate study, there are thought to be a large number from Wales.

Keith

Yggdrasil
05-12-2014, 06:50 PM
My Norwegian kit is awaiting FGC5496 results. I have absolutely no idea how that will turn out, just trying what is left after Geno 2.0 showed negatives for most other snps below DF13. Also negative for CTS2457.

alan
05-12-2014, 08:02 PM
I think France and adjacent is the key. Without deep clade testing of a descent sample from France its going to be impossible to understand the interrelationships. Deep L21 testing is just so skewed to the isles that I think our impression is probably hopelessly distorted at the moment and with the French in general not into DNA testing its not going to be fixed any times soon. I recall the amount of effort Rich had to put in to get L21 testing in France even when free testing was being offered and when L21 was coming up positive at a very impressive rate among the French who did test (and note that Bretons were deliberately not targeted as people would just say it was all down to the British migration).

Celtarion
05-12-2014, 10:23 PM
I think that the comparison is not accurate enough while the idea of comparing British Island vs Continent is a good idea. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the number of kit is still too low in the continent in comparison with British Islands.

rms2
05-13-2014, 12:38 AM
Here are the totals from FTDNA's Ancestral Origins for 12 STR markers and up.

30,773 (England)
18,923 (Ireland)
14,645 (Scotland)
12,635 (United Kingdom)
2,613 (Wales)
2,583 (Northern Ireland)

Total Isles= 82,172

4,430 (France)

So, yeah, for such a populous country, France is way under tested.

George Chandler
05-13-2014, 01:25 AM
My Norwegian kit is awaiting FGC5496 results. I have absolutely no idea how that will turn out, just trying what is left after Geno 2.0 showed negatives for most other snps below DF13. Also negative for CTS2457.
If you show up negative for FGC5496 you can always try S1051 which is as old as FGC5496 and some people having possible Scandinavian Ancestry.

George

Mac von Frankfurt
05-18-2014, 03:58 AM
I think France and adjacent is the key. Without deep clade testing of a descent sample from France its going to be impossible to understand the interrelationships.

Precisely why I am still on the sidelines. I was initially excited to have a good paper trail to the continent until I realized Frankfurt was/is such a melting pot that my DNA results would be nearly meaningless.

MitchellSince1893
10-22-2015, 02:16 AM
I've done this for U152 and U106 in other threads, so for those interested here is the FTDNA British Isles by County Project stats for L21. https://www.familytreedna.com/public/BritishIsles?iframe=yresults

There are 1086 confirmed SNPs in the project of which 250 are L21 and subclades (23% of total). 77 of the confirmed SNPs are above L21 and some of these are likely L21.

As pointed out, in some cases there may be problems with folks in this project correctly reporting their ancestry location and I've wondered why some entries were in a certain county when the description had a different county (e.g. a Kilkenny fellow in the Middlesex Co.)

Nonetheless, over 1000 samples throughout the British Isles with a rough geographic connection may be of some value.

To overcome the small sampling sizes for individual counties, I created a map with geographic regions with 32-62 confirmed SNPs in each region.
6395


County, Confirmed SNPs, L21 SNPs, %
Aberdeen 5 3 60.0%
Anglesey 2 1 50.0%
Angus 7 2 28.6%
Antrim 19 8 42.1%
Argyllshire 14 8 57.1%
Armagh 6 3 50.0%
Ayrshire 9 2 22.2%
Banffshire 1 1 100.0%
Bedfordshire 9 0 0.0%
Berkshire 4 0 0.0%
Berwickshire 6 0 0.0%
Breconshire 1 1 100.0%
Buckinghamshire 15 1 6.7%
Buteshire 2 2 100.0%
Caernarvon 3 0 0.0%
Caithness 4 0 0.0%
Cambridge 7 1 14.3%
Cardigan 2 2 100.0%
Carmarthen 3 1 33.3%
Cavan 7 6 85.7%
Cheshire 18 1 5.6%
Clackmannanshire 2 0 0.0%
Clare 4 1 25.0%
Cork 18 6 33.3%
Cornwall 21 1 4.8%
Cumberland 8 0 0.0%
Denbighshire 3 0 0.0%
Derbyshire 11 3 27.3%
Devonshire 32 6 18.8%
Donegal 12 7 58.3%
Dorset 15 2 13.3%
Down 8 3 37.5%
Dublin 15 7 46.7%
Dumfries 9 3 33.3%
Dunbarton 3 1 33.3%
Durham 13 2 15.4%
East Lothian 2 0 0.0%
Essex 18 0 0.0%
Fermanagh 8 4 50.0%
Fife 6 1 16.7%
Flintshire 0 0 #DIV/0!
Galway 8 3 37.5%
Glamorgan 7 4 57.1%
Gloucester 20 1 5.0%
Guernsey 3 0 0.0%
Hampshire 5 0 0.0%
Herefordshire 10 0 0.0%
Hertfordshire 12 0 0.0%
Huntingdonshire 2 0 0.0%
Inverness-shire 14 7 50.0%
Isle of Man 7 4 57.1%
Isle of Wight 3 1 33.3%
Kent 31 8 25.8%
Kerry 4 3 75.0%
Kildare 0 0 #DIV/0!
Kilkenny 8 3 37.5%
Kincardineshire 1 0 0.0%
Kinross 2 0 0.0%
Kirkcudbright 2 2 100.0%
Lanarkshire 27 5 18.5%
Lancashire 40 7 17.5%
Leicestershire 8 1 12.5%
Leitrim 0 0 #DIV/0!
Leix*/Laois 3 1 33.3%
Limerick 5 2 40.0%
Lincolnshire 24 6 25.0%
Londonderry 13 6 46.2%
Longford 3 2 66.7%
Louth 1 1 100.0%
Mayo 6 3 50.0%
Meath 0 0 #DIV/0!
Merionethshire 4 2 50.0%
Middlesex 52 15 28.8%
Midlothian 14 3 21.4%
Monaghan 6 3 50.0%
Monmouthshire 2 1 50.0%
Montgomeryshire 2 0 0.0%
Moray 2 1 50.0%
Norfolk 27 2 7.4%
Northamptonshire 11 1 9.1%
Northumberland 18 5 27.8%
Nottinghamshire 12 2 16.7%
Offaly 0 0 #DIV/0!
Orkney* 2 1 50.0%
Oxfordshire 13 1 7.7%
Peebleshire 3 0 0.0%
Pembrokeshire 2 1 50.0%
Perthshire 11 7 63.6%
Radnorshire 2 0 0.0%
Renfrewshire 7 3 42.9%
Roscommon 5 2 40.0%
Ross and Cromarty 2 0 0.0%
Roxburghshire 7 0 0.0%
Rutland 1 0 0.0%
Selkirkshire 1 0 0.0%
Shetland* 4 1 25.0%
Shropshire* 7 2 28.6%
Sligo 1 0 0.0%
Somerset 33 3 9.1%
Staffordshire 23 2 8.7%
Stirlingshire 5 2 40.0%
Suffolk 23 0 0.0%
Surrey 10 1 10.0%
Sussex E 7 1 14.3%
Sussex W 5 0 0.0%
Sutherland 3 0 0.0%
Tipperary 10 4 40.0%
Tyrone 14 7 50.0%
Warwickshire 17 2 11.8%
Waterford 3 2 66.7%
Westlothian 3 0 0.0%
Westmeath 1 1 100.0%
Westmorland 4 0 0.0%
Wexford 2 1 50.0%
Wicklow 2 1 50.0%
Wigtonshire 1 0 0.0%
Wiltshire 15 2 13.3%
Worcestershire 5 1 20.0%
Yorkshire E/Riding 11 3 27.3%
Yorkshire N/Riding 22 3 13.6%
Yorkshire W/Riding 28 1 3.6%

AtWhatCost
10-23-2015, 02:01 PM
The Z253/2534 numbers are not even remotely close, you say these came from FTDNA maps but just look at the projects and countries listed, these two snps are heavily Islands and only relatively small numbers on the continent. You might want to revisit the data on this, Z253 is clearly much more prevalent in the Isles. I'm surprised no one questioned this earlier but there does seem to be a general lack of interest in Z253 or a bias.

Edited:
With Ireland being the heaviest by far, which includes a substantial number of Americans of Irish descent. Anyway, the original proposition of this thread is wrong as it relates to Z253 and Z2534, it's Isles first, very heavy, but also found in small numbers on the Continent, that's a fact and pretty clear from anyone who has experience with the results from these groups.

MacEochaidh
10-24-2015, 03:31 AM
So, DF49 left the Isles for the Continent, mutated to DF23, then returned to the Isles and mutated to M222. Why? How?

David Mc
10-24-2015, 05:52 AM
So, DF49 left the Isles for the Continent, mutated to DF23, then returned to the Isles and mutated to M222. Why? How?

Who are you responding to? I read back through the comments, but I must have missed something...

MacEochaidh
10-24-2015, 04:30 PM
Who are you responding to? I read back through the comments, but I must have missed something...

I'm replying to the first post, which puts DF23 as Continental, but DF49 and M222 as Isles.

rms2
10-24-2015, 04:50 PM
I think ancient y-dna is going to be the key to understanding L21 and where it originated. Knowing where its subclades are now is important, but that could be really misleading. We have seen how modern data have misled some pretty big names in genetics in the recent past. Ancient y-dna has been turning all that on its head.

AtWhatCost
10-24-2015, 05:26 PM
My post spoke to Z253 and Z2534 only as an fyi and the facts, not speculation, that show Isles 95%+ (estimation based upon L21, Z253, and other projects). As far as the origin though, I don't think there are enough facts/evidence yet to make that determination. I'm only referencing where current Z253 and subclades are putting their ancestors so I don't know where someone is getting Continent first, that's just silly.

AtWhatCost
10-24-2015, 05:30 PM
I'm replying to the first post, which puts DF23 as Continental, but DF49 and M222 as Isles.

I can answer this....unlikely. I'm thinking that chart/information is, how do I say it, completely wrong??

Heber
10-24-2015, 06:16 PM
Europe has high frequencies of R1b-M269
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/europe-snp-analysis-maps/
Atlantic Europe has high frequencies of P312
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/atlantic-dna/
The Isles has high frequencies of L21
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/isles-dna/
Ireland has very high frequencies of L21 and DF13
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-dna/
Irish Provinces have high frequencies of DF49, DF21, C4466 and L513
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-dna-ulster/
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-dna-connacht/
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-dna-munster/
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-dna-leinster/
France has a high frequency of U152 and L21 is highest in Brittany
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/france-dna/
Iberia has a high frequency of DF27 and L21 is highest in N & NW Spain
Germany has a high frequency of U106 and very low L21.
The L21 in Germany appears to be similar to the Isles suggesting back migrations.
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/germany-dna/

rms2
10-24-2015, 06:23 PM
Europe has high frequencies of R1b-M269
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/europe-snp-analysis-maps/
Atlantic Europe has high frequencies of P312
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/atlantic-dna/
The Isles has high frequencies of L21
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/isles-dna/
Ireland has very high frequencies of L21 and DF13
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-dna/
Irish Provinces have high frequencies of DF49, DF21, C4466 and L513
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-dna-ulster/
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-dna-connacht/
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-dna-munster/
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-dna-leinster/
France has a high frequency of U152 and L21 is highest in Brittany
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/france-dna/
Iberia has a high frequency of DF27 and L21 is highest in N & NW Spain
Germany has a high frequency of U106 and very low L21.
The L21 in Germany appears to be similar to the Isles suggesting back migrations.
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/germany-dna/

I think we knew all that already, yet look at all that modern data relative to where each of those haplogroups/clades originated. To sum up for those who don't understand what I am driving at: modern frequency gives little or no indication of place of origin.

I seriously doubt that L21 originated in the Isles.

YFull estimates that L21 first formed about 2500 BC, and its tmrca is estimated at about 2400 BC. That makes it likely that it originated among the Beaker Folk on the Continent and was brought to the Isles by them.

jdean
10-24-2015, 06:28 PM
Europe has high frequencies of R1b-M269
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/europe-snp-analysis-maps/
Atlantic Europe has high frequencies of P312
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/atlantic-dna/
The Isles has high frequencies of L21
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/isles-dna/
Ireland has very high frequencies of L21 and DF13
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-dna/
Irish Provinces have high frequencies of DF49, DF21, C4466 and L513
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-dna-ulster/
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-dna-connacht/
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-dna-munster/
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-dna-leinster/
France has a high frequency of U152 and L21 is highest in Brittany
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/france-dna/
Iberia has a high frequency of DF27 and L21 is highest in N & NW Spain
Germany has a high frequency of U106 and very low L21.
The L21 in Germany appears to be similar to the Isles suggesting back migrations.
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/germany-dna/

Be intrested to hear where the frequency of DF49 is high anywhere, unless of course you are talking about DF49's subclade M222 ?

Heber
10-24-2015, 06:34 PM
Be intrested to hear where the frequency of DF49 is high anywhere, unless of course you are talking about DF49's subclade M222 ?

DF49 has its highest frequency in Mayo and NW Ireland.

https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l21-df13-df49/

jdean
10-24-2015, 07:17 PM
DF49 has its highest frequency in Mayo and NW Ireland.

https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l21-df13-df49/

Again you are specifically talking about a well known and relatively young subclade of DF49

David Mc
10-24-2015, 08:41 PM
DF49 has its highest frequency in Mayo and NW Ireland.

https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l21-df13-df49/

DF49xDF23 is, as jdean has said, hard to pin down in terms of frequencies, and the numbers in NW Ireland are misleading-- a number of the DF49xDF23s in the NW of Ireland are actually transplants from elsewhere. McElrea has been shown to be Manx in origin, for example. Hopkins/McCabe... numerically they add to the presence in Ireland, but they represent one family line-- a line which doesn't seem related to any of the other groups around them, suggesting their origins lie elsewhere. If DF49 began in the Isles, the "frequencies" suggest it was somewhere on the British mainland. I strongly suspect it began on the continent, though.

rms2
10-25-2015, 02:03 AM
We need much more ancient y-dna from the Continent. Beware of those who want Ireland to be the matrix of mankind. I have been to Ireland. It is a great place, but it's not the birthplace of L21.

AtWhatCost
10-25-2015, 02:11 AM
I don't think this thread started with origins in mind or that wasn't how I took it, it made a statement that certain subclades were heavy continental, which is not an accurate statement for Z253 and it's subclades. As far as origins go, L21 was continental and perhaps many of this subclades were also. I would think ancient dna will help for sure. I'd like to see more testing of the Viking remains scattered about the Isles, particularly in Ireland.

rms2
10-25-2015, 02:13 AM
I agree with most of that, but I doubt you will see much if any L21 among the vikings.

Dubhthach
10-25-2015, 07:15 AM
DF49xDF23 is, as jdean has said, hard to pin down in terms of frequencies, and the numbers in NW Ireland are misleading-- a number of the DF49xDF23s in the NW of Ireland are actually transplants from elsewhere. McElrea has been shown to be Manx in origin, for example. Hopkins/McCabe... numerically they add to the presence in Ireland, but they represent one family line-- a line which doesn't seem related to any of the other groups around them, suggesting their origins lie elsewhere. If DF49 began in the Isles, the "frequencies" suggest it was somewhere on the British mainland. I strongly suspect it began on the continent, though.

McCabe/Hopkins are potential Gallowglasses:



Mac CÁBA—IV—M'Caba, MacCabe, Macabe; 'son of Cába' (probably a nickname; cf. 'cába,' a cap or hood); the name of a military family of Norse origin who came over from the Hebrides, in the 14th century, and settled in Breifney, where they became captains of gallowglasses to the O'Rourkes and O'Reillys. Their pedigree is given by MacFirbis, from which it appears that they are a branch of the Mac Leods (See Mac Leóid). The MacCabes are frequently mentioned in the Annals of the Four Masters, the earliest mention being at the year 1358. They are still numerous in Breifney (Leitrim and Cavan), and in the neighbouring counties of Monaghan and Meath.




Mac OIBICÍN—V—Hobbikin, Hopkin, Hopkins, Hopkinson; 'son of Hobkin' (little Robert); a Mayo surname, often pronounced Ó Coibicín.

Dubhthach
10-25-2015, 07:17 AM
We need much more ancient y-dna from the Continent. Beware of those who want Ireland to be the matrix of mankind. I have been to Ireland. It is a great place, but it's not the birthplace of L21.

I don't even think M222 arose here, though I do think A259 did (and possibly the other major DF105 clades such as S588, DF85 -- and perhaps DF105 itself)

wlharris1055@yahoo.com
10-25-2015, 04:22 PM
To me saying frequency of results has anything to do with origin of SNP is quite a stretch.

David Mc
10-25-2015, 06:46 PM
McCabe/Hopkins are potential Gallowglasses:

Thanks, Dubhthach. I've noticed that connection, too, and it's one of the factors behind my suggestion (in another thread) that the origins of DF49 and its descendants might be more complicated than we sometimes assume. At the moment there is little data to back alternative models up, but I continue to wait and watch.

AtWhatCost
10-26-2015, 01:17 AM
I agree with most of that, but I doubt you will see much if any L21 among the vikings.

I'm pretty confident there are L21 Viking subclades and also confident time will prove that.

Dubhthach
10-26-2015, 07:29 AM
Any aDNA from a viking context would be welcome (be it L21+ or not), heck the National Museum of Ireland in Dublin probably have a dozen + Viking remains in storage from various digs around Ireland (particulary Dublin). Given how promising this new "Petrous bone" technique is for recovering aDNA here's hoping we start seeing dozen's of genomes appear from across Europe from all era's.

In an Irish context though the vikings were rather contained and like their "relatives" the Norman's became heavily gaelicized.

AtWhatCost
10-27-2015, 04:10 PM
Yes, wondering how many of them actually became completely absorbed into Irish/Gaelic culture even to the extent of acquiring surnames with no Viking connection. I'm glad there are people that are actually in the know when it comes to ancient samples potentially being tested and when those results might actually be made known to the wider public. I'm waiting to wake up one morning and find an email that says I've been linked to the haplogroup of an ancient Viking/Irish/Saxon/Norman/Pictish or whatever set of remains....I don't care which one really, but to finally have some clarity would be a wonderful thing.

dp
02-06-2016, 04:45 PM
Biogeography of L21/M529
The tables below are from the latest haplotype spreadsheet, as released by Mike Walsh in the Yahoo L21 group:
R1b-L21 (top levels):
7646

R1b-L21>DF13:
7647

R1b-L21>DF13>>DF49
7648
The above chart was included because DF49>>M222 is large, and the first known branch of L21.
dp :-)

rms2
02-06-2016, 07:52 PM
A couple of things to note:

1) There is a huge Isles bias in the y-dna database. That cannot be overstated. It has been a problem for quite some time.

2) Modern y haplogroup distribution, while important, can be misleading and is no substitute for ancient y-dna.

#2 above is one of the main reasons why, up until a couple of years ago, so very many people thought R1b had been in western Europe since the Paleolithic period and represented descent from Cro Magnon Man there. It was the default position when I got my initial 37-marker test results back in 2006.

dp
02-08-2016, 05:00 PM
Biogeography of L21 (extended):
I wanted to do a chart of country vs. haplogroup to do that I decided to continue making charts of the dominant haplogroups of L21.
Attached are ones for the newly discovered DF13>Z39689, it's descendants: ZZ10, DF21, L513, as well as the DF49>>M222 haplogroup.
In the following post I give the chart by country.
dp :-)

dp
02-08-2016, 05:06 PM
Country Totals by Dominant Haplogroups of R1b-L21 (drawn from Mike Walsh's spreadsheet of L21 haplotypes)
http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7694&d=1454951050
dp :-)
I want to thank Mike Walsh for given his permission for me to make graphs from his spreadsheet, and post them.

alan
02-08-2016, 05:37 PM
seems a pointless exercise when there are 20 isles samples to each French one. You would have to adjust to considering one hit in France as good as 20 in the isles. So think about that 3 of something in France is like 60 in the isles.

dp
02-08-2016, 06:15 PM
alan,
I wanted to look at the geographic spread of L21 and of its major haplogroups. L21 carriers are all over Europe. From Spain to Russian, and from Sweden to Italy. The spread of L21>DF13>Z39589>Z251 impressed me
My vote is that L21 has a continental origin.
dp :-)

Mikewww
02-08-2016, 06:55 PM
Country Totals by Dominant Haplogroups of R1b-L21 (drawn from Mike Walsh's spreadsheet of L21 haplotypes)
http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7694&d=1454951050
dp :-)
I want to thank Mike Walsh for given his permission for me to make graphs from his spreadsheet, and post them.
I've added Z39589, at least as we understand it, but I need to post the update. I will do that soon.

The really good news is that all of the testing is getting us down to where true DF13* and DF13 undifferentiated is getting smaller and smaller.

rms2
02-08-2016, 07:12 PM
seems a pointless exercise when there are 20 isles samples to each French one. You would have to adjust to considering one hit in France as good as 20 in the isles. So think about that 3 of something in France is like 60 in the isles.

And given France's restrictive dna testing laws, things aren't likely to get better anytime soon.

GoldenHind
02-08-2016, 08:40 PM
You may want to read my recent post about the geographic imbalances in the FTDNA database.

Mikewww
02-08-2016, 10:42 PM
seems a pointless exercise when there are 20 isles samples to each French one. You would have to adjust to considering one hit in France as good as 20 in the isles. So think about that 3 of something in France is like 60 in the isles.
I look at it a little differently. I agree that frequency % is only relevant within the geography or consistently samples area. Comparing a frequency % or proportion across different areas with different testing rates is not useful without some kind of normalization.

However I think our consumer tested numbers are so low in some areas as far as testing penetration that normalization may not work hardly at all.

Another approach is more along the lines of just looking for a relative hotspots. For example, I'm in L513. The two big early branches are S5668 and S6365 with S5668 being bigger. If you look at the tables you can quickly see the "norm" appears to be about a 2 to 1 ratio S5668 to S6365. This ratio holds in Ireland and England.

However, in Scotland, the ration of S5668 to S6365 is 11 to 1. On the other side of things, in Wales the ratio of S5668 to is S6365 is reverse, or 1 to 6. S6365 appears more dominant relatively speaking in Wales.

What does this mean? To me, this points to an origin in England. The S6365 side was more likely to get pushed to Wales and the S5668 side to Scotland with both expanding over to Ireland, perhaps both early and late waves.

Let us not forget we have L513+ people that appear to have different haplotypes from Belgium and Germany.... only a handful though. We have some obligatory French and Swedish, too but it could easily be argued they are some migration out of Britain. The Belgium and German contingent are different so the argument does hold well.

Jon
02-09-2016, 09:06 AM
When you say 'this points to an origin in England', do you mean for L513?

rms2
02-09-2016, 12:23 PM
You may want to read my recent post about the geographic imbalances in the FTDNA database.

Can you post a link to it?

I think I remember seeing it at the time, but I would like to read it again.

MitchellSince1893
02-09-2016, 12:53 PM
Can you post a link to it?

I think I remember seeing it at the time, but I would like to read it again.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6422-Geographic-Imbalances-in-FTDNA-Database-Some-Comparisons&p=139493&viewfull=1#post139493

Mikewww
02-09-2016, 01:32 PM
When you say 'this points to an origin in England', do you mean for L513?
Yes, but I should have said launch point. That table cited provides some logic for a launchpoint into Scotland and into Ireland from lands of modern day England.

L513 could have originated in England but just as easily originated in Northern France or the Low Countries along the Lower Rhine River. Particularly since some of the early Bell Beakers (i.e. the Amesbury Archer) of the Wessex Culture may have connections from the Alpine or may be related to the Unetice Culture it is not impossible for some kind of oigination point towards the Upper Rhine, although I think that is unlikely.

From an L21 perspective, I think we would love to have deeper SNP testing of the patch of L21ers from the Bologna, Italy region.

Jon
02-09-2016, 03:13 PM
Totally. I'm crossing fingers that maybe the next round of aDNA testing, including Scotland, may yield some information for us L513 guys. It still is amazing to me how focussed S5668 is on Scotland especially, but your account makes total sense. An ultimate origin somewhere on the continent, with movement with Bell Beaker expansion through England, into Ireland and Scotland, where we see the branch-offs happening (like L193) would make complete sense with the historical accounts. I guess Scotland and Ireland simply had less invasion from elsewhere as England did - allowing individual lines within L21(and within L513) to become dominant. I also notice that L21* and L513* have proportionally greater representation in England than Scotland or Ireland, where downstream sub-groups seem to have taken more of a hold (e.g. L193 or P66). Might that represent remnants of the older, original movement of people, for instance Beaker Folk, before they ultimately settled in the more northern/western areas?

Mike McG
02-09-2016, 03:20 PM
Country Totals by Dominant Haplogroups of R1b-L21 (drawn from Mike Walsh's spreadsheet of L21 haplotypes)
http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7694&d=1454951050
dp :-)
I want to thank Mike Walsh for given his permission for me to make graphs from his spreadsheet, and post them.

David,

Since you already appear to have it in a spreadsheet format, a percentage list of L21 Haplogoup by country of this data would be of interest.

Mike McG

Jon
02-09-2016, 03:43 PM
Hi Guys,

In response to the chart, and keeping in mind the issues with disproportionate testing rates, I did some calculations on the rate of some of the subclades between England, Ireland and Scotland, to see if there were any frequency patterns. To get these, I divided the amount of each group found in England with the amount in Scotland and Ireland, respectively. This gives a rough idea of the amount, proportionally to each country, of each HG.

DF49:
England-Scotland=0.388
England-Ireland=0.104

DF21:
England-Scotland=0,636
England-Ireland=0.212

L513:
England-Scotland=0.292
England-Ireland=0.214

L21 (overall):
England-Scotland=0.684
England-Ireland=0.317

In each case, the higher the number, the closer the frequency rates. So for instance, the Scottish and English rates are much closer for DF21 than the Irish and English. The difference in these rates for DF49 is also noticeable; but, for instance, in L513 the difference between England to Ireland and England to Scotland is hardly anything - displaying the fact that L513 rate is equally different in Scotland and Ireland to England, despite the fact that in actual number, L513 is much more frequent (according to this chart at least) in both Scotland and Ireland than in England.

I am notoriously NOT mathematical, so I may have made a horrible error here - no offense will be taken if anyone corrects me on any of this :)

Reith
02-09-2016, 04:19 PM
I just extended my ancestral date from 1836 to 1738 in Northern Lower Saxony and I am FGC3213 under DF21.

With Rathlin being DF21, yet they cluster more with continental Europe shows that L-21 is most likely continental.

We need more ancient DNA and more French/German as well.

My maternal Y DNA was also from Northern Germany and just had a 5th cousin test positive for L-21 on 23andMe. I understand that the two of us are a small sample size, but what are the chances of us both being L-21?

Webb
02-09-2016, 04:24 PM
I just extended my ancestral date from 1836 to 1738 in Northern Lower Saxony and I am FGC3213 under DF21.

With Rathlin being DF21, yet they cluster more with continental Europe shows that L-21 is most likely continental.

We need more ancient DNA and more French/German as well.

My maternal Y DNA was also from Northern Germany and just had a 5th cousin test positive for L-21 on 23andMe. I understand that the two of us are a small sample size, but what are the chances of us both being L-21?

I think I have mentioned this to the point everyone else is probably groaning. But, the Schlegel surname project has 10 lineages. Two are confirmed L21 and one is predicted L21. Most claim to be from Schlegel, in Thuringia.

Reith
02-09-2016, 04:31 PM
I know this might be far fetched, but descriptions of bell beaker skeletons fit me perfect as well: Tall, Heavy Boned and Brac head shape.

rms2
02-09-2016, 04:31 PM
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6422-Geographic-Imbalances-in-FTDNA-Database-Some-Comparisons&p=139493&viewfull=1#post139493

Thanks!

Apparently I had not seen it, but it is an excellent post, and I agree with jdean that it ought to be pinned.

Mikewww
02-09-2016, 05:43 PM
... An ultimate origin somewhere on the continent, with movement with Bell Beaker expansion through England, into Ireland and Scotland, where we see the branch-offs happening (like L193) would make complete sense with the historical accounts. I guess Scotland and Ireland simply had less invasion from elsewhere as England did - allowing individual lines within L21(and within L513) to become dominant. I also notice that L21* and L513* have proportionally greater representation in England than Scotland or Ireland, where downstream sub-groups seem to have taken more of a hold (e.g. L193 or P66). Might that represent remnants of the older, original movement of people, for instance Beaker Folk, before they ultimately settled in the more northern/western areas?

The English Channel is not much of a jump, but the northwestern Bell Beaker folks seemed to have little problem with sailing up and down the Atlantic. I do wonder if the craft types might be important between crossing the Channel versus general oceanic travel. If more common and less costly crafts could be used for crossing the Channel then that might have made it a good point for immigration.

We need to keep mind that L513's TMRCA is younger than L21's and DF13's.

There are only two reliable SNPs between the L21 MRCA and the DF13 MRCA. This could have been as little as 50 years to as much as 350 years.

Descendants of DF13 descendants like DF21, FGC11134, FGC5494, S1026, Z16500, ZZ10, Z39589, DF49, Z251 all have only one or two SNPs between the DF13 MRCA and their MRCA's.

The dispersion of these early subclades of L21 could have happened in as little as 75-100 years up to 400-500 years. This could have been the initial exploration and colonization period for the northwest European Bell Beaker folks.

However, subclades like R1b-DF41, Z255 and L513 are different. You can see this on the Big Tree too but look at this chart.
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-l513/about/background

You can count seven (7) SNPs that mark the R1b-L513 subclade. The MRCA for L513 may have been 700-1400 years later than the DF13 MRCA. I'm not sure how to interpret that. It could be that L513 originated in England or it could be that L513's lineage hung around in the Low Countries before something pushed them over to England and eventually it pushed them (or something else pushed them) out to Ireland, Wales and Scotland.

corner
02-09-2016, 07:14 PM
The English Channel is not much of a jump, but the northwestern Bell Beaker folks seemed to have little problem with sailing up and down the Atlantic. I do wonder if the craft types might be important between crossing the Channel versus general oceanic travel. If more common and less costly crafts could be used for crossing the Channel then that might have made it a good point for immigration.We've sailed across the Channel and around Britain/Scotland in a small boat - the Channel actually is much of a jump. Unless the weather was a lot balmier in those days I doubt they'd set off in a small hollowed-out log. Mind you, if they did, that might explain L21's bottleneck of around half a dozen phylogenetically equivalent SNPs before DF13 emerged - maybe the first couple of dozen logs sank before 'lucky for some' DF13 finally made it.

Seriously though, DF27 and U152 are L21's Continental European 'brother' subclades of P312 and don't appear to show any similar lengthy bottleneck below their 'parent' SNP, P312>ZZ11. Maybe it's because DF27 and U152 initially had no dangerous tidal bodies of water to cross or grumpy islanders to deal with. U152 and DF27 look to have produced many offspring straight away. My imagination is probably getting carried away but perhaps L21's bottleneck of several centuries could be the result of a period of difficulty getting to, or gaining a foothold in what later became known as Britain/Ireland..

Jon
02-09-2016, 08:21 PM
It could be that L513 originated in England or it could be that L513's lineage hung around in the Low Countries before something pushed them over to England and eventually it pushed them (or something else pushed them) out to Ireland, Wales and Scotland.

Could it not also be that L513, along with other subclades of L21, made their way up the western seaboard of Europe, into the Isles where they clung on in the western areas over the centuries of invasion and strife that followed? It's been remarked on other threads that L513 distribution in the Isles does seem to be quite coastal?

Mikewww
02-09-2016, 08:58 PM
We've sailed across the Channel and around Britain/Scotland in a small boat - the Channel actually is much of a jump. Unless the weather was a lot balmier in those days I doubt they'd set off in a small hollowed-out log. Mind you, if they did, that might explain L21's bottleneck of around half a dozen phylogenetically equivalent SNPs before DF13 emerged - maybe the first couple of dozen logs sank before 'lucky for some' DF13 finally made it.
I don't think you are saying this, but it must not have been as easy to cross by boat through the straights of Gibraltar, up to the Bay of Biscay and then to the Isles than it is to cross the English Channel? How did the Bell Beakers get their livestock to the Isles?

I've asked this before, but what do we know about the Bell Beakers sea traveling capabilities? Surely, they were pretty good, at least Western Beakers must have been. The Wessex Culture Beaker folks were not the Iberian Western types but they must have brought livestock with them. They traded heavily with the Unetice Culture of Central Europe... just up the Rhine and over a valley or so.

"The Wessex culture is the predominant prehistoric culture of central and southern Britain during the early Bronze Age...
The culture is related to the Hilversum culture of the southern Netherlands, Belgium and northern France, and linked to the northern France armorican tumuli, prototyped with the Middle Rhine group of Beaker culture and commonly subdivided in the consecutive phases Wessex I (2000-1650 BC) and Wessex II (1650-1400). Wessex I is closely associated with the construction and use of the later phases of Stonehenge."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wessex_culture


"The Únětice culture had trade links with the British Wessex culture."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unetice_culture

Umm. Just posted about this elsewhere. About the only L21 hotspot to the east is Bologna, Italy. It was Estruscan and then the Boii came in before the Romans came. The Boii would have been from Bohemia, the land of the Unetice.


Seriously though, DF27 and U152 are L21's Continental European 'brother' subclades of P312 and don't appear to show any similar lengthy bottleneck below their 'parent' SNP, P312>ZZ11. Maybe it's because DF27 and U152 initially had no dangerous tidal bodies of water to cross or grumpy islanders to deal with. U152 and DF27 look to have produced many offspring straight away. My imagination is probably getting carried away but perhaps L21's bottleneck of several centuries could be the result of a period of difficulty getting to, or gaining a foothold in what later became known as Britain/Ireland..

Jon
02-10-2016, 02:22 PM
Sorry to butt in with what may be a rookie question: are asterisk groups like for instance DF49* by definition OLDER than their down-stream mutations like M222? In other words, areas with a high density of DF49* are pre-M222?

corner
02-10-2016, 03:47 PM
I don't think you are saying this, but it must not have been as easy to cross by boat through the straights of Gibraltar, up to the Bay of Biscay and then to the Isles than it is to cross the English Channel? How did the Bell Beakers get their livestock to the Isles?Your earlier post mentioned the possibility of 'common and less costly craft' being used for migration across the Channel - I just think there'd be better chance of arriving in one piece in a good boat. The two areas on our travels that instinctively felt more risky in a small boat were the Channel in the south and the Pentland Firth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentland_Firth) in the north.

dp
02-10-2016, 06:34 PM
Sorry to butt in with what may be a rookie question: are asterisk groups like for instance DF49* by definition OLDER than their down-stream mutations like M222? In other words, areas with a high density of DF49* are pre-M222?

The spreadsheet's phylogeny is dependent on the extent of their positive values. I did not inspect the particular results for negative values.

I used * for kits unresolved beyond a certain point (that of the SNP preceding the *). For example L21* kits have only been confirmed to be carriers of L21. They may have been proved not to carry some phylogenetic SNPs, but they have not been proven positive to carry any belonging to known L21 branches, such as DF13.

In this case I did not use, ** , which indicates kits that are assumed basal because they have been proven to not belong to any of the known branches of a particular haplogroup. To determine if someone is ** takes more time because I'd have to look through all their negative results.

One quirk is that when I used the x convention for excluding, it is a tad not well defined. x mentions excluding, or NOT PROVEN POSITIVE for whatever follows. However, kits unresolved to the branch of the SNP following the x will be clumped together with those proven to be negative of the SNP. In other words some DF49xM222 kits could carry the M222 SNP but have not been tested for it yet. This would affect DF49*, Z2980*, Z2976*, DF23*, Z2961* which I lumped as DF49xM222.

dp :-)

Reith
02-10-2016, 09:15 PM
I know this might be far fetched, but descriptions of bell beaker skeletons fit me perfect as well: Tall, Heavy Boned and Brac head shape.

Sorry, I am not Brac, did the equation wrong, but all else still stands

alan
02-10-2016, 11:55 PM
We've sailed across the Channel and around Britain/Scotland in a small boat - the Channel actually is much of a jump. Unless the weather was a lot balmier in those days I doubt they'd set off in a small hollowed-out log. Mind you, if they did, that might explain L21's bottleneck of around half a dozen phylogenetically equivalent SNPs before DF13 emerged - maybe the first couple of dozen logs sank before 'lucky for some' DF13 finally made it.

Seriously though, DF27 and U152 are L21's Continental European 'brother' subclades of P312 and don't appear to show any similar lengthy bottleneck below their 'parent' SNP, P312>ZZ11. Maybe it's because DF27 and U152 initially had no dangerous tidal bodies of water to cross or grumpy islanders to deal with. U152 and DF27 look to have produced many offspring straight away. My imagination is probably getting carried away but perhaps L21's bottleneck of several centuries could be the result of a period of difficulty getting to, or gaining a foothold in what later became known as Britain/Ireland..

I am pretty sure they use currach type boats of wicker and wood frames and leather skin. Its very hard to prove because the chances of finding traces are close to zero. However, the sewn wooden boats only seem to emerge about 2000BC and I think it would be lunacy to sail the seas the beaker folk did in a log boat. The lack of evidence of potentially sea-going wooden boats pre 2000BC makes me strongly suspect that the currach sort of wicker and skin boat was the only seaworthy sort of vessel in the beaker era. All the wooden boats found in that period seem to be log boats and I just cannot imagine them out at sea.

I know you said this is jest but I had exactly the same thought about how even into recent times life on open wooden fishing boats had a horrendous effect on life expectancy and this must have been even worse in the beaker era. So, I actually do think that L21, as the north maritime branch of P312 who apparently ruled the north Atlantic seaways, may have had an exceptionally high death toll. One other factor that could have been bad for L21's health is that the main source of beaker copper in the isles until tin bronze came along was Ross Island which was an arsenical copper. Arsenic is of course a poison so I have wondered if a run of mutations could have happened as a result of this.

errett
03-07-2016, 08:31 PM
Hi Mike---I didn't realize there are 782---L-21*-------that is my terminal SNP also------are most of these outside of FTDNA----how would I locate those records---if possible. Thanks

Dubhthach
03-07-2016, 09:26 PM
I am pretty sure they use currach type boats of wicker and wood frames and leather skin. Its very hard to prove because the chances of finding traces are close to zero. However, the sewn wooden boats only seem to emerge about 2000BC and I think it would be lunacy to sail the seas the beaker folk did in a log boat. The lack of evidence of potentially sea-going wooden boats pre 2000BC makes me strongly suspect that the currach sort of wicker and skin boat was the only seaworthy sort of vessel in the beaker era. All the wooden boats found in that period seem to be log boats and I just cannot imagine them out at sea.

I know you said this is jest but I had exactly the same thought about how even into recent times life on open wooden fishing boats had a horrendous effect on life expectancy and this must have been even worse in the beaker era. So, I actually do think that L21, as the north maritime branch of P312 who apparently ruled the north Atlantic seaways, may have had an exceptionally high death toll. One other factor that could have been bad for L21's health is that the main source of beaker copper in the isles until tin bronze came along was Ross Island which was an arsenical copper. Arsenic is of course a poison so I have wondered if a run of mutations could have happened as a result of this.

Currach's have basically been static in design for long time. the account in Latin of St. Brendan's voyage basically could be applied to construction of a currach today. Back in the 1970's Tim Severin built a sea going Currach and sailed across to Newfoundland!

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2542/3985479442_98c08b898a.jpg

http://www.rlcherry.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/currach.jpg

http://i821.photobucket.com/albums/zz139/Ojibwa/Ireland/Saint%20Brendan/DSCN1944diagram.jpg

http://i821.photobucket.com/albums/zz139/Ojibwa/Ireland/Saint%20Brendan/DSCN1947map.jpg

I came across following interesting cut-away which seems to be based on the Brendan Currach:

http://www.stephenbiesty.co.uk/jpegs/bigIrishCurrach.jpg


The purely "wicker type" currach such as below was used during 17th century for example
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/Captain_Thomas_Phillips_-_Currach.jpg

Mikewww
03-07-2016, 09:34 PM
Hi Mike---I didn't realize there are 782---L-21*-------that is my terminal SNP also------are most of these outside of FTDNA----how would I locate those records---if possible. Thanks
Where is the 782 number coming from? I don't remember that one. What are you defining as L21*?

In the R1b-L21_Haplotypes file I can count only 8 people who are L21+ DF13- DF63- A7901- A5846-. That would get knocked down to 5 if we counted BY2899 as a subclade but it is only found in Wildes people so far.

I can count 4,784 people who are confirmed DF13+ of some type and 132 who are DF63+.

P.S. I'm no longer tracking haplotypes of less than 67 STRs in that file.

errett
03-08-2016, 11:20 PM
I guess I misunderstood your chart----"R1B-L21 All Haplotypes" 1-24-2016 http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7694&d=1454951050

I thought the first line was all L-21*------- I understand L-21* to be L-21+; DF13-; DF63-; A5846-; F4006-. Which is what I am. Thanks for your feedback.

Also--how would I locate A7901---can't find it at YSEQ or FTDNA

Mikewww
03-09-2016, 01:32 AM
I guess I misunderstood your chart----"R1B-L21 All Haplotypes" 1-24-2016 http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7694&d=1454951050

I thought the first line was all L-21*------- I understand L-21* to be L-21+; DF13-; DF63-; A5846-; F4006-. Which is what I am. Thanks for your feedback.

Also--how would I locate A7901---can't find it at YSEQ or FTDNA
That is not my chart. I think author of the is just citing my spreadsheet as the data source. I am not sure but the author might be including predicted L21* or defining L21* differently.

Mikewww
08-31-2016, 12:41 PM
I remember Richard S spotting this guy as L21,
34048 Goblirsch of Czech Republic, Zemschen ((Tremesne)

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Czech/default.aspx?section=yresults

I was checking matches for one of my L513+ continental guys this morning.
150405 Turpin from France, Bassie-Normandie, Manche, Brécey

Turpin has never had much of any matches so it has been a bit frustrating. However, this morning I noticed Goblirsch on his matches list at 25 STRs. That's Turpin's best match, really only match ever. I'm not a fan of matches at 25 STRs but that is all Goblirsch has and he Turpin have 5 shared off-modal STRs in that 25. That's not a bad signature although convergence does happen at 25 STRs for sure.

I missed this to-date, but I was surprised to see Goblirsch listed as R-L513 on the matches screen. Sure enough, over in the Czech project he apparently took the L21 SNP Pack and came up L513+.

Dubhthach
08-31-2016, 02:18 PM
I remember Richard S spotting this guy as L21,
34048 Goblirsch of Czech Republic, Zemschen ((Tremesne)

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Czech/default.aspx?section=yresults

I was checking matches for one of my L513+ continental guys this morning.
150405 Turpin from France, Bassie-Normandie, Manche, Brécey

Turpin has never had much of any matches so it has been a bit frustrating. However, this morning I noticed Goblirsch on his matches list at 25 STRs. That's Turpin's best match, really only match ever. I'm not a fan of matches at 25 STRs but that is all Goblirsch has and he Turpin have 5 shared off-modal STRs in that 25. That's not a bad signature although convergence does happen at 25 STRs for sure.

I missed this to-date, but I was surprised to see Goblirsch listed as R-L513 on the matches screen. Sure enough, over in the Czech project he apparently took the L21 SNP Pack and came up L513+.

Nice find!

Helgenes50
08-31-2016, 02:39 PM
I remember Richard S spotting this guy as L21,
34048 Goblirsch of Czech Republic, Zemschen ((Tremesne)

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Czech/default.aspx?section=yresults

I was checking matches for one of my L513+ continental guys this morning.
150405 Turpin from France, Bassie-Normandie, Manche, Brécey

Turpin has never had much of any matches so it has been a bit frustrating. However, this morning I noticed Goblirsch on his matches list at 25 STRs. That's Turpin's best match, really only match ever. I'm not a fan of matches at 25 STRs but that is all Goblirsch has and he Turpin have 5 shared off-modal STRs in that 25. That's not a bad signature although convergence does happen at 25 STRs for sure.

I missed this to-date, but I was surprised to see Goblirsch listed as R-L513 on the matches screen. Sure enough, over in the Czech project he apparently took the L21 SNP Pack and came up L513+.

I am of the same region as Turpin( the same department),Manche
Turpin is more Southern. A few months ago, M222 has been detected by the university of Leicester,
in the North of the department.
Is L513 Irish or celtic like M222 ?
I am sorry, but I know a little more the different branches of my haplogroup, what is not really sure !!!

Jon
08-31-2016, 06:19 PM
There are a lot of opinions on L513, but here goes...(I'm L513-L193 myself ;))

L513 is found mostly in the isles (Uk and Ireland), although there are some folks from the continent as well. In the isles, it is by far most frequent in Scotland and Ireland. This is corroborated by all the statistics I've seen, from different companies. It is found in England and Wales, but so far at negligible rates compared to Scotland and Ireland. That said, it is extremely old, and certainly pre-dates modern, clan times. So most subclades of L513 seem to be associated with more specific regions. My subclade L193 for instance is found overwhelmingly in Scotland, with major hotspots in the western coastal areas, Ayrshire/Galloway, and central Scotland.

IMO this points to an early origin among the ancient tribes of Scotland and Ireland. I for one am happy to use the term Celtic to describe that, and most probably these folks were mostly speaking the Goedelic branch of Celtic language from an early stage.

These are only my opinions, and I'd be happy to hear others' as well!

Mikewww
08-31-2016, 07:07 PM
There are a lot of opinions on L513, but here goes...(I'm L513-L193 myself ;))

L513 is found mostly in the isles (Uk and Ireland), although there are some folks from the continent as well. In the isles, it is by far most frequent in Scotland and Ireland. This is corroborated by all the statistics I've seen, from different companies. It is found in England and Wales, but so far at negligible rates compared to Scotland and Ireland. That said, it is extremely old, and certainly pre-dates modern, clan times. So most subclades of L513 seem to be associated with more specific regions. My subclade L193 for instance is found overwhelmingly in Scotland, with major hotspots in the western coastal areas, Ayrshire/Galloway, and central Scotland.

IMO this points to an early origin among the ancient tribes of Scotland and Ireland. I for one am happy to use the term Celtic to describe that, and most probably these folks were mostly speaking the Goedelic branch of Celtic language from an early stage.

These are only my opinions, and I'd be happy to hear others' as well!
Your logic is based on the locations of high modern day frequencies, right? Are there other reasons beside the high frequency locations?

Jon
08-31-2016, 08:09 PM
Your logic is based on the locations of high modern day frequencies, right? Are there other reasons beside the high frequency locations?

Most of the testing companies ask for MDKA's; and most of them, with passionate hobby genealogists, are in the 1700's. I was always told the golden rule of genealogy is get to the 1700's; people only started moving around over big distances, statistically speaking, in the 1800's. So there seems to be a rule of thumb that wherever folks were in the early 1700's, chances are they'd been there for centuries if not millennia before that. Of course that is all generally speaking, and there are always exceptions. Would we be seeing such a focus on Scotland and Ireland, even in the modern era, for L513, if it had come in significant numbers from somewhere else?

I guess my other reasons for the Scotland/Ireland focus is the link between the 5668 branch and 6365 branch. 5668 really does seem to link up groups in Scotland and Ireland, with 6365 being more widespread and including the bigger English and Welsh groups. These subclades also being ancient, these links must be of significance IMHO.

But Mike, you're the main man for L513! I didn't want to butt in, and I'd be delighted to hear your much more informed sum-up of L513 for Helgenes50.

Mikewww
08-31-2016, 08:52 PM
Most of the testing companies ask for MDKA's; and most of them, with passionate hobby genealogists, are in the 1700's. I was always told the golden rule of genealogy is get to the 1700's; people only started moving around over big distances, statistically speaking, in the 1800's. So there seems to be a rule of thumb that wherever folks were in the early 1700's, chances are they'd been there for centuries if not millennia before that. Of course that is all generally speaking, and there are always exceptions. Would we be seeing such a focus on Scotland and Ireland, even in the modern era, for L513, if it had come in significant numbers from somewhere else?

I guess my other reasons for the Scotland/Ireland focus is the link between the 5668 branch and 6365 branch. 5668 really does seem to link up groups in Scotland and Ireland, with 6365 being more widespread and including the bigger English and Welsh groups. These subclades also being ancient, these links must be of significance IMHO.

But Mike, you're the main man for L513! I didn't want to butt in, and I'd be delighted to hear your much more informed sum-up of L513 for Helgenes50.
Please don't worry about a good conversation, even with disagreement. Logical conversations on points of disagreement is how we learn and grow, besides its more fun than everyone saying "yep".

I recommend reading Jean Manco's books. She posts on this forum but here is her web site.
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/

It is my understanding that there have been periods of thinking where "anti-migration" views predominated so there is great disagreement on the proposed golden rule of genealogy... but I think it depends on the period, climate, turmoil, etc.

"I was always told the golden rule of genealogy is get to the 1700's; people only started moving around over big distances, statistically speaking, in the 1800's. So there seems to be a rule of thumb that wherever folks were in the early 1700's, chances are they'd been there for centuries if not millennia before that."

R1b-L23 as a family appears to be an example of great ancient migration. We are just the tail end of it.

Tolan
09-01-2016, 04:14 AM
There are a lot of opinions on L513, but here goes...(I'm L513-L193 myself ;))

L513 is found mostly in the isles (Uk and Ireland), although there are some folks from the continent as well. In the isles, it is by far most frequent in Scotland and Ireland. This is corroborated by all the statistics I've seen, from different companies. It is found in England and Wales, but so far at negligible rates compared to Scotland and Ireland. That said, it is extremely old, and certainly pre-dates modern, clan times. So most subclades of L513 seem to be associated with more specific regions. My subclade L193 for instance is found overwhelmingly in Scotland, with major hotspots in the western coastal areas, Ayrshire/Galloway, and central Scotland.

IMO this points to an early origin among the ancient tribes of Scotland and Ireland. I for one am happy to use the term Celtic to describe that, and most probably these folks were mostly speaking the Goedelic branch of Celtic language from an early stage.

These are only my opinions, and I'd be happy to hear others' as well!

Are L513 are many in Scotland and Ireland, simply because L21 are more numerous there? Or because L513 are more numerous in percentage of L21 than elsewhere?

Jon
09-01-2016, 05:53 AM
Are L513 are many in Scotland and Ireland, simply because L21 are more numerous there? Or because L513 are more numerous in percentage of L21 than elsewhere?

Great question Tolan - here I must admit to being out of my depth, but I'd love to hear an answer.

And Mike - fair point about the tail end of migration thing. Ultimately we all came from somewhere, or in the Scots phrase 'We're a' Jock Tamson's bairns' ;)

Jon
09-01-2016, 05:54 AM
Are L513 are many in Scotland and Ireland, simply because L21 are more numerous there? Or because L513 are more numerous in percentage of L21 than elsewhere?

Great question Tolan - here I must admit to being out of my depth, but I'd love to hear an answer.

And Mike - fair point about the tail end of migration thing. Ultimately we all came from somewhere, or in the Scots phrase 'We're a' Jock Tamson's bairns' ;)

Mikewww
09-01-2016, 12:29 PM
Are L513 are many in Scotland and Ireland, simply because L21 are more numerous there? Or because L513 are more numerous in percentage of L21 than elsewhere?
There different mixes of L21 subclades by region but we don't have much information to work with other than the consumer reported MDKAs from FTDNA testing.

Here is the L513 project ancestral map. You'll have to zoom in
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L513?iframe=ymap

In general, there is a reflection of higher L513 found in higher L21 areas. England has less L513 per square mile than Scotland and the island of Ireland. Probably, this is largely due to a dilution/washing out/migration caused by Roman and Anglo-Saxon events.

Look at Germany. We have L513 scattered over there.

Jon
09-01-2016, 12:43 PM
In general, there is a reflection of higher L513 found in higher L21 areas. England has less L513 per square mile than Scotland and the island of Ireland. Probably, this is largely due to a dilution/washing out/migration caused by Roman and Anglo-Saxon events.


According to the stats Larry Walker had though (and I admit I don't know where he was getting them from), is it not true that compared to other subclades like for instance DF21 or DF49, L513 seemed to have less frequency in England proportionate to the frequency in Scotland and Ireland? I totally agree that migration events will have diluted it in certain areas, but with lots more DF21 and DF49 in England, might we not be looking at a L513 group who came into the areas of modern Sco/Ire a very long time ago? I'Ve read recently about Menapii or Veneti tribes, which would explain the maritime links, as well as the earlier representation in the continent?

Mikewww
09-01-2016, 01:09 PM
According to the stats Larry Walker had though (and I admit I don't know where he was getting them from), is it not true that compared to other subclades like for instance DF21 or DF49, L513 seemed to have less frequency in England proportionate to the frequency in Scotland and Ireland? I totally agree that migration events will have diluted it in certain areas, but with lots more DF21 and DF49 in England, might we not be looking at a L513 group who came into the areas of modern Sco/Ire a very long time ago? I'Ve read recently about Menapii or Veneti tribes, which would explain the maritime links, as well as the earlier representation in the continent?

We have to be careful about using consumer test results as we have more results from Ireland than from Scotland than from England... and way more than from France. There is bias in our consumer testing.

There have been scientific studies where they try to filter out the biases. That is the base data that Eupedia uses for their frequency maps. Here is L21.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17907527/R1b-L21_Distribution_Map_Eupedia.png

If you go back and compare to the L513 project ancestry map on the FTDNA project pages you see the same general trend. As you move north and west from east/southeast England towards Ireland and Scotland L21 frequencies pick up.

Again, this could be just a matter of Roman and Anglo-Saxon events diluting E/SE England or creating disapora events. The Romans claim to have massacred some tribes.

I think it is true that DF21 is one of the stronger L21 subclades in England but it is not at all lacking from Ireland and Scotland. M222 is downstream of DF49, so part of the DF49 subclade, is very, very heavy in Ireland. However, we don't have scientific studies of this. The POBI study did not cover Y DNA at this level, I don't think.

rms2
09-01-2016, 01:30 PM
I remember Richard S spotting this guy as L21,
34048 Goblirsch of Czech Republic, Zemschen ((Tremesne)

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Czech/default.aspx?section=yresults

I was checking matches for one of my L513+ continental guys this morning.
150405 Turpin from France, Bassie-Normandie, Manche, Brécey

Turpin has never had much of any matches so it has been a bit frustrating. However, this morning I noticed Goblirsch on his matches list at 25 STRs. That's Turpin's best match, really only match ever. I'm not a fan of matches at 25 STRs but that is all Goblirsch has and he Turpin have 5 shared off-modal STRs in that 25. That's not a bad signature although convergence does happen at 25 STRs for sure.

I missed this to-date, but I was surprised to see Goblirsch listed as R-L513 on the matches screen. Sure enough, over in the Czech project he apparently took the L21 SNP Pack and came up L513+.

Yeah, I recruited Goblirsch for L21 testing some years ago. Nice to see he is still interested enough to do the L21 SNP Pack. I also recruited Turpin originally, back when we were doing our little French study, and L21 was turning up in men of French ancestry pretty regularly. Back then, as Mike and Alan will remember, we were recruiting French R1bs for L21 testing, regardless of whether we thought they might actually be L21+ or not.

Mikewww
09-01-2016, 01:30 PM
.... I'Ve read recently about Menapii or Veneti tribes, which would explain the maritime links, as well as the earlier representation in the continent?

Look at the YFull age estimates under DF1 (L513) and take a step down to S5668 and then Z16340.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-S5668/

R-Z16340's Time to Most Recent Ancestor is 3400 ybp or about 1400 BC.

Two of the branches of Z16340 are pure non-Isles.

Y20987(BY4158) is pure Swedish and I have new haplotype that I think fits and it is Finnish.

BY616 is Belgium. That's it. No one else has it.

BY4158 and BY616 are no more closely related to the Irish/Scottish parts of Z16340 than 1400 BC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menapii
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veneti_(Gaul)

We don't know much about the Menapii or the Bretagne type of Veneti except of the reporting by the Romans at about 50 BC.

There's a good 1300 years back in time to the Z16340 MRCA. Its fairly doubtful that the Menapii or Veneti of the Roman Era were in the same place or even in existence in a recognizable group back at 1400 BC.

1400 BC gets us back to the times soon after the Bell Beaker period ended.

Look at these Bell Beaker maps by Lemercier.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17907527/Beakers-Distribution_and_Migrations_from_Portugal_Map_by_L emercier_2009.jpg

This looks like spaghetti with splotches of sauce thrown across it. These were a highly mobile people.

YFull lists the MRCAs for S5668 and L513(DF1) as 4000 ybp or 2000 BC. That's the heart of the Beaker era in Northwest Europe. Archaeologists say that Britain's Beakers appear to be derived from Rhenish Beakers, people along the Rhine River.

Jon
09-01-2016, 02:03 PM
Great stuff, many thanks Mike. So could it generally be agreed that L513 (perhaps all of L21?) is associated with Beaker culture in the isles and on the continent? Or is that too simplistic?

goradd
10-07-2017, 05:14 PM
What about DF63? Everyone always talks about DF13 and it's subclades...what about DF63 and its subclade origins? ha

gay knutson
12-08-2017, 09:54 PM
i now have 37 str's for goblisch

rms2
12-09-2017, 12:30 AM
i now have 37 str's for goblisch

FTDNA's holiday sale is on right now. The Big Y includes a 111-marker upgrade for no extra charge. You're going to want to do the Big Y eventually. Might as well get it at a good price.