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Táltos
05-13-2014, 04:53 PM
Hi guys I am hoping some of the H experts can give me some insights. I read (with Google translate on!) Russian Forum Molgen as there are many topics on that forum of interest to me. Especially that they have the best section on Y DNA Q. :)

Recently I have noticed on Forum Molgen some mtDNA H23 people reporting Tatar ancestry in their maternal line. I find this to be interesting and I have been thinking about how H23 came into the Tatar population. According to that forum there are three unrelated Tatars that are H23, possibly a fourth.

1. Did H23 arrive into the Tatar population because of dispersal out of Neolithic Germany in various directions? As Jean M and Gail T had pointed out the one ancient H23 from Brotherton et al 2013.

2. Could it be possible that H23 might have originated somewhere further east than Germany and arrived into the Tatar population that way?

3. Is there a more recent explanation, maybe Russian Mennonites marrying into the Tatar population? Really I have no clue.

My own direct maternal line is a brick wall back to 1796 in Pennsylvania. I have no idea if she was German or British or what. Incidentally and I don't know if this really is a clue to the big picture of my 1796 brick wall. My Mom has a surprisingly large number of Russian and Polish matches at 23andme. Those two countries even make the top 5 of her COA. There is a lot of reported German ancestry in this line, but of course all lines can only be documented back so far. There is at least one line that married into this direct maternal line that is from Prussia. So perhaps that is the common denominator for her matches at 23andme?

Here is the haplogroup origins for H23 currently at FTDNA.

H23 Czech Republic - 1
H23 England - 5
H23 France - 2
H23 Germany - 5
H23 Ireland - 11
H23 Netherlands - 1
H23 Poland - 1
H23 Russian Federation - 3
H23 Scotland - 5
H23 Sweden - 3
H23 United Kingdom - 5
H23 United States - 1

Thank you in advance for any insights.

Táltos
01-03-2015, 09:05 PM
I am very pleased to see that one of the H23 Tatars has officially joined The Haplogroup H Subclade Discovery Project: H (for H18 through H100 and unclassified H with FMS). https://www.familytreedna.com/public/mtdna_hstar/default.aspx?section=mtresults B)

GailT
01-03-2015, 10:19 PM
I am very pleased to see that one of the H23 Tatars has officially joined The Haplogroup H Subclade Discovery Project: H (for H18 through H100 and unclassified H with FMS). https://www.familytreedna.com/public/mtdna_hstar/default.aspx?section=mtresults B)

I copied below my summary of the H23 results in the project. It's surprising that we have an ancient LBK farmer sample 7000 years old, but the samples in the project have a low average mutation rate, so I'm guessing that they share a more recent common ancestor than the LBK sample. It would be great if other H23 Tatars shared their results so determine the diversity in the group.

H23 (C10211T) is estimated to be about 3000 years old based on diversity of present day samples, however, there is an H23 sample from ancient remains from the early LBK farmer culture found at Halberstadt-Sonntagsfeld, Germany dated to about 7000 years ago.
H23 has 30 samples including: 5 from Germany, 2 from Sweden, 2 from England, 2 from Ireland, 2 from Netherlands, 2 from Russia and 1 each from Poland, Scotland, and Czech. While H23 was present in Germany at least 7000 years ago, the most recent common ancestor of the people in the H Subclade Discovery project probably originated in an early Germanic tribe in northern Europe around 3000 years ago.

Táltos
01-04-2015, 12:40 AM
I copied below my summary of the H23 results in the project. It's surprising that we have an ancient LBK farmer sample 7000 years old, but the samples in the project have a low average mutation rate, so I'm guessing that they share a more recent common ancestor than the LBK sample. It would be great if other H23 Tatars shared their results so determine the diversity in the group.

H23 (C10211T) is estimated to be about 3000 years old based on diversity of present day samples, however, there is an H23 sample from ancient remains from the early LBK farmer culture found at Halberstadt-Sonntagsfeld, Germany dated to about 7000 years ago.
H23 has 30 samples including: 5 from Germany, 2 from Sweden, 2 from England, 2 from Ireland, 2 from Netherlands, 2 from Russia and 1 each from Poland, Scotland, and Czech. While H23 was present in Germany at least 7000 years ago, the most recent common ancestor of the people in the H Subclade Discovery project probably originated in an early Germanic tribe in northern Europe around 3000 years ago.

Thank you very much for explaining how the LBK H23 sample compares to modern H23. Yes it would be great if the other H23 Tatars share their results as well. I saw on Molgen today the H23 Tatar in your project encouraged the others to join. So my fingers are crossed that they will. It will be interesting to see how many differences they might have from the others in this subclade. I look forward to what we can further learn about the history of H23.

Táltos
01-04-2015, 05:12 AM
It would be great if other H23 Tatars shared their results so determine the diversity in the group.

Gail,
I see another one of the H23 Tatars has recently joined your project! B)

GailT
02-21-2015, 03:44 PM
A large number of ancient DNA samples have been published in the new Haak et al. preprint. This paper also corrects the age estimate for an ancient H23 sample (HAL36) from Germany that was incorrectly dated as 5000 BCE and is now dated at 1000 BCE. The new date is consistent with the age estimate for H23 based on present day diversity (about 2000 BCE), and I think it is likely that H23 originated in the Steppe and was part of Steppe migrations to Europe.

Táltos
02-21-2015, 04:56 PM
A large number of ancient DNA samples have been published in the new Haak et al. preprint. This paper also corrects the age estimate for an ancient H23 sample (HAL36) from Germany that was incorrectly dated as 5000 BCE and is now dated at 1000 BCE. The new date is consistent with the age estimate for H23 based on present day diversity (about 2000 BCE), and I think it is likely that H23 originated in the Steppe and was part of Steppe migrations to Europe.
Gail,
Thank you very much, it is most appreciated. I wish the button would allow me to give you reputation points right now, but it won't let me! This is most interesting and unexpected!

Táltos
04-27-2018, 04:34 AM
CRS A263G A750G A1438G A4769G A8860G A15326G
H23 C10211T
http://www.ianlogan.co.uk/sequences_by_group/h23_genbank_sequences.htm
1. AY495091(European) Coble H23 07-JAN-2008 A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G A4769G A8860G C10211T A15326G T16519C
2. AY495092(European) Coble H23 07-JAN-2008 A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G A4769G A8860G C10211T A15326G T16519C
3. AY495097(European) Coble H23 07-JAN-2008 A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G A4769G A8860G C10211T A15326G T16519C
4. AY495126(European) Coble H23 07-JAN-2008 T152C A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G A4769G A8860G C10211T A15326G T16519C
5. DQ112944.2(Europe) Kivisild H23 18-OCT-2006 A750G A1438G A4769G A8860G C10211T A15326G
6. EF657462 mtDNA307(Europe)Herrnstadt H23 14-JUL-2007 A750G A1438G A4769G A8860G C10211T A15326G
7. FJ999540 FTDNA H23 13-MAY-2009 A263G 309.1C 315.1C A750G A1438G A4769G A8860G C10211T A15326G T16519C
8. GU122977(Russia) Malyarchuk H23 19-MAY-2010 A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G A4769G A8860G C10211T A15326G T16519C
9. JQ695801(Sweden) FTDNA H23 03-MAR-2012 A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G A4769G A8860G C10211T T13886Y A15326G T16519C
10. JQ701956 Behar H23 07-APR-2012 A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G A4769G A8860G C10211T T14180C A15326G T16519C
11. JQ702374 Behar H23 07-APR-2012 A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G G3736R A4769G A8860G C10211T A15326G A16318G T16519C
12. JQ702467 Behar H23 07-APR-2012 A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G A4769G A8860G C10211T A11962G A12033G A15326G T16519C
13. JQ703016(Netherlands) Behar H23 07-APR-2012 T72C A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G A4769G A8860G C10211T A15326G T16519C
14. JQ704757(Ireland) Behar H23 07-APR-2012 T152Y A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G A4769G A8860G C10211T C10654T A15326G T16519C
15. JQ705226 Behar H23 07-APR-2012 A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G A4769G A8860G C10211T A15326G A16318G T16519C
16. JQ705924 Behar H23 07-APR-2012 A263G 309.1C 315.1C 523.1C 523.2A A750G A1438G A4769G A8860G C10211T A15326G T16519C
17. JQ775967(Irish) FTDNA H23 03-APR-2012 A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G A4769G A8860G C10211T A15326G T16519C
18. JQ794835(English) FTDNA H23 03-APR-2012 A263G 315.1C T742C A750G A1438G A4769G A8860G C10211T A15326G T16519C
19. JX153406(Denmark) Raule H23 10-JAN-2014 T146C A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G A4769G A8860G C10211T A15326G T16519C
20. KC553980(HAL36) Brotherton (Incomplete) H23 23-APR-2013 A263G A750G A1438G A4769G A8860G C10211T A15326G T16519C
21. KF577592(Russia) FTDNA H23 03-SEP-2013 A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G A4769G A8860G C10211T A15326G T16519C
22. KF577592(Russia) FTDNA H23 03-SEP-2013 A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G A4769G A8860G C10211T A15326G T16519C
23. KF162081(Denmark) Li H23 01-OCT-2013 A263G 309.1C T310C A750G A1438G A4769G A8860G C10211T A15326G T16519C
24. KF162131(Denmark) Li H23 01-OCT-2013 A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G A4769G A8860G C10211T A12033G A15326G T16519C
25. KF451318(HGDP00798-Orcadian) Lippold H23 07-OCT-2014 A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G A4769G A8860G C10211T A15326G T16519C
... KJ446396(HGDP00798-Orcadian) Zheng H23 26-APR-2014 A263G A750G A1438G A4769G A8860G C10211T A15326G T16519C
26. KJ631749 FTDNA H23 02-APR-2014 T195C A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G A4769G A8860G C10211T A15326G T16519C
27. KY670971(Russia) Malyarchuk H23 28-FEB-2018 A263G T310C A750G A1438G A4769G A8860G C10211T A15326G T16519C
..
... MF498661(Germany-ancient) Knipper (Incomplete) H23 12-SEP-2017 A263G A750G A1438G A1555G A4769G A8860G C10211T A15326G
..
.. 23andMe('Mon to AG'-173) H23 214G 263G 750G 1438G 4769G 5999C 8860G 10101C 10211T 15326G
.. 23andMe('Zack Lem'-201) H23 263G 750G 1438G 4769G 8860G 10211T 15326G
.. 23andMe('James Pollack'-255) H23 263G 750G 1438G 4769G 6378C 8860G 10211T 14022G 15326G 16519C
.. 23andMe('Civ Gold'-651) H23 263G 750G 1438G 4769G 8860G 10211T 15326G 16519C
.. 23andMe('Civ's mother'-672) H23 263G 750G 1438G 4769G 8860G 10211T 15326G 16519C
.. Ca3(Portugal) Nogueiro H23 214G 263G 315.1C 750G 1438G 4769G 5999C 6032A 8839A 8860G 10101C 10211T 14569A 15326G 16519C
.. 23andMe('Kathy Wigley'-2159) H23 263G 750G 1438G 4769G 8860G 10211T 16519C
.. 23andMe('MeatPuppet'-4110) H23 263G 750G 1438G 4769G 8860G 10211T 15326G 16519C
.. 23andMe('Melanie'-4958) H23 263G 750G 1438G 4769G 8860G 10211T 16519C
.. 23andMe('wjm2358'-4946) H23 263G -- 1438G 8860G 10211T
.. 23andMe('SuzanneM'-5201) H23 263G 750G 1438G 4769G 8860G 10211T 16519C
.. 23andMe(Stephen92000) H23 263G 1438G 8860G 10211T
.. 23andMe('Chance0018'-5683) H23 263G 1438G 8860G 10211T
.. 23andMe('Participant'-hu6443EF) H23 263G 750G 1438G 4769G 8860G 10211T 16519C
..


Ian Logan 2018

Táltos
07-21-2019, 07:05 PM
YFull's Mtree for H23. It gives new subclades for H23, and wow! All the Italians that belong to subclades of H23!

https://www.yfull.com/mtree/H23/

Donwulff
07-21-2019, 09:38 PM
In a way the research samples can be misleading, because they're chosen very selectively. The KY.... samples come from "Mitogenome Diversity in Sardinians: A Genetic Window onto an Island's Past." They may all be related within some period.

Táltos
07-21-2019, 10:18 PM
In a way the research samples can be misleading, because they're chosen very selectively. The KY.... samples come from "Mitogenome Diversity in Sardinians: A Genetic Window onto an Island's Past." They may all be related within some period.

Thank you. I have been wondering how so many of these ended up on the tree. I was figuring they might all be related.

Edit-Looking closer at the bottom of the Mtree page I see the link. I can't load it after the first page though. ]
https://yfull.com/mtree/H23/

Táltos
06-16-2020, 05:11 AM
mtDNA H23 found in Jordan! The Genomic History of the Bronze Age Southern Levant. https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(20)30487-6

Sample ID 16463 Baqah_MLBA