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View Full Version : The Y11261 Ashkenazi origin- a hypothesis



Jgolin
02-02-2022, 08:53 PM
The I2 Y11261 haplotype is only found in Ashkenazi Jews and its origin is mysterious. The haplotype evolution is: M223 to P78 to A427 to Y6401 to Y6406 to Y11261. On the Family tree site, there are only three men immediately in the nearest upstream subclades BY6401 and BY6406: a Sicilian, a German, and an Austrian. Furthermore, the Y11261 haplotype has a nearly unique pattern of DYS 393, 390, 19, and 389II of 13-22-15/16 and 28-30. In I2, this pattern is found only one other place (among Englishmen fairly close to Y11261 but coupled to a higher 389II value of 31).I began by comparing the genomes on gedmatch of seven members of Y11261 (including myself). None of these are tier 1 matches with each other. I used Eurogenes 13 to estimate the relative geographic makeup of these men. They exhibited the standard Ashkenazi distribution of (median values) 35% Eastern Mediterranean, 16.3% North Atlantic, 10.5% West Asian, 17% West Mediterranean, 8.7% Baltic and roughly 6% Red Sea. There was remarkable consistency among these men because of endogmy. I then used the one to one comparison to find 3 CM overlaps between individuals. There were typically about 15-20 of these between pairs. I then used the chromosome painting tool and looked to see if I could assign geographical regions to the overlaps. In many instances, a single overlapping region could be assigned. When two regions overlapped, I assigned a value of 0.5 to each. I did not use segments with more than two overlaps. I am attaching these results (one of two attachments). When these overlaps are analyzed, there was no statistical difference between the North Atlantic, Western Asian, Western Mediterranean, and Red Sea values when compared to the non-overlapping sequence percentages. This indicated that my analysis was reasonably accurate. However, there was a significant (55% vs 35%) overabundance of Eastern Mediterranean sequences and an underabundance of Baltic sequences. This suggested to me that the Y11261 men had significantly more genetic interactions in the Eastern Med region than the average Ashkenazi and fewer Baltic encounters.

Papers by El-Sibai et al. (Annals of Human Genetics, (2008) 73: 565-581) and Bardo et al ( Plos One (2013) doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone 0054616) demonstrated significant levels of I in Lebanese, Syrians, Jordanians and Palestinians. The frequencies in Lebanon and Syria are 2.5% and 2.1% respectively. The later reference was particularly useful because it contained a supplementary table listing the haplotypes of these individuals. A set of ten STRs was used to determine the haplotype. Obviously, this is quite a rough measure, nevertheless those of the Syrians are particularly striking. I attach a Table including the STR values for eight Syrians along with seven Y11261 individuals. I also include examples from Western Europe, Lebanon and, the Palestinians along with some Y6401/6, individuals. It would, of course, be essential to have extensive testing, but the perfect match of Syrian #4 with the Y11261 individuals (not seen with either Y6401 or Y6406 or other A427 individuals) and the similar haplotypes among others stands out. The Lebanese look less closely related.

Taken together, I suggest that either Y11261 (created 3,000 years ago with big error bars) or Y6406 entered the Levant populations from Europe and returned to the Roman Empire with Ashkenazim. Just when it entered is unknown. The Romans conquered Syria in 64 or 65BC and there was trade between Sicily and the Levant even before then. It is possible, I suppose, that the Y11261 line developed in a Jewish person in Syria and was never in a non Jewish population. However, to date it has not been seen in Sephardim which I would have expected.

Do people find this plausible?

MEurope55
02-02-2022, 11:15 PM
The I2 Y11261 haplotype is only found in Ashkenazi Jews and its origin is mysterious. The haplotype evolution is: M223 to P78 to A427 to Y6401 to Y6406 to Y11261. On the Family tree site, there are only three men immediately in the nearest upstream subclades BY6401 and BY6406: a Sicilian, a German, and an Austrian. Furthermore, the Y11261 haplotype has a nearly unique pattern of DYS 393, 390, 19, and 389II of 13-22-15/16 and 28-30. In I2, this pattern is found only one other place (among Englishmen fairly close to Y11261 but coupled to a higher 389II value of 31).I began by comparing the genomes on gedmatch of seven members of Y11261 (including myself). None of these are tier 1 matches with each other. I used Eurogenes 13 to estimate the relative geographic makeup of these men. They exhibited the standard Ashkenazi distribution of (median values) 35% Eastern Mediterranean, 16.3% North Atlantic, 10.5% West Asian, 17% West Mediterranean, 8.7% Baltic and roughly 6% Red Sea. There was remarkable consistency among these men because of endogmy. I then used the one to one comparison to find 3 CM overlaps between individuals. There were typically about 15-20 of these between pairs. I then used the chromosome painting tool and looked to see if I could assign geographical regions to the overlaps. In many instances, a single overlapping region could be assigned. When two regions overlapped, I assigned a value of 0.5 to each. I did not use segments with more than two overlaps. I am attaching these results (one of two attachments). When these overlaps are analyzed, there was no statistical difference between the North Atlantic, Western Asian, Western Mediterranean, and Red Sea values when compared to the non-overlapping sequence percentages. This indicated that my analysis was reasonably accurate. However, there was a significant (55% vs 35%) overabundance of Eastern Mediterranean sequences and an underabundance of Baltic sequences. This suggested to me that the Y11261 men had significantly more genetic interactions in the Eastern Med region than the average Ashkenazi and fewer Baltic encounters.

Papers by El-Sibai et al. (Annals of Human Genetics, (2008) 73: 565-581) and Bardo et al ( Plos One (2013) doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone 0054616) demonstrated significant levels of I in Lebanese, Syrians, Jordanians and Palestinians. The frequencies in Lebanon and Syria are 2.5% and 2.1% respectively. The later reference was particularly useful because it contained a supplementary table listing the haplotypes of these individuals. A set of ten STRs was used to determine the haplotype. Obviously, this is quite a rough measure, nevertheless those of the Syrians are particularly striking. I attach a Table including the STR values for eight Syrians along with seven Y11261 individuals. I also include examples from Western Europe, Lebanon and, the Palestinians along with some Y6401/6, individuals. It would, of course, be essential to have extensive testing, but the perfect match of Syrian #4 with the Y11261 individuals (not seen with either Y6401 or Y6406 or other A427 individuals) and the similar haplotypes among others stands out. The Lebanese look less closely related.

Taken together, I suggest that either Y11261 (created 3,000 years ago with big error bars) or Y6406 entered the Levant populations from Europe and returned to the Roman Empire with Ashkenazim. Just when it entered is unknown. The Romans conquered Syria in 64 or 65BC and there was trade between Sicily and the Levant even before then. It is possible, I suppose, that the Y11261 line developed in a Jewish person in Syria and was never in a non Jewish population. However, to date it has not been seen in Sephardim which I would have expected.

Do people find this plausible?

Thanks for sharing.

In short no. Given the age of the clade I would expect there to be no detectable autosomal relationship between modern carriers of the clade and the ancestor who imparted the clade to Ashkenazim (unless this ancestor’s contribution is baked into the Ashkenazi group as a whole through thousands of different ancestral lines, but in this case the carriers of the clade would probably have no special relationship to the ancestral component). As for a broader Syrian/ Levantine context, I see no evidence for that hypothesis either.

Jgolin
02-04-2022, 11:33 AM
I agree (thinking more about it) that the overabundance of sequences don't make mathematical sense, but they are there, Don't know why. I don't see it in non-Y11261 comparisons. I find the limited Syrian haplotypes interesting, though. Thanks for the response.

MEurope55
02-05-2022, 03:19 PM
You should check out the big AG Jewish thread on YDNA lineages - https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?17915-Major-Jewish-Y-lineages. One thing I’ll say is I don’t think the relationship you point out with the Syrians based on STR values is likely informative due to the small number of markers and because we have no SNP test confirmation of any recent (in relative terms) relationship. The wider structure of the parent and sibling clade doesn’t look like what we’d expect of an Ashkenazi Levantine clade, of which we have many examples now. https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y4884/