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View Full Version : Does anyone have Mariupol Greek DNA samples???



Billyh
02-04-2022, 06:55 PM
Admittedly they are a small group nowadays, but not as small as other groups there are samples of like Samaritans.

Tomenable
04-21-2022, 08:48 PM
They are nearly identical autosomally as KER_1 ancient DNA sample from Kerch Peninsula.

Michalis Moriopoulos
04-22-2022, 03:24 AM
I've looked for them forever. Could never find any on Gedmatch. I've used Pontic Greeks for reference and even KER-1 (back when it was available). Never had any luck.

XXD
04-22-2022, 10:00 AM
I've looked for them forever. Could never find any on Gedmatch. I've used Pontic Greeks for reference and even KER-1 (back when it was available). Never had any luck.

Azov Greeks on FTDNA seem to be overwhelmingly G, L, and J2a, which is indicative of an origin from Caucasian-Pontic Greeks.

Mariupol Greeks might be of similar ancestry.

My great-great-great-grandmother was an Odessan Greek from an old family from there, and she matches the Pontic ancestors of the now banned user dosas. Her mtDNA is U3a3, which peaks in Caucasian populations.

Avraam Kyriakidis
04-22-2022, 10:28 AM
That "Ostrogothic" ancient DNA is very similar to modern Crimean/Azov/Mariupol Greek genetics.They are a mix of Pontic Greeks with adittional Slavic/Germanic mix. Could be east Germanic as well. They also show some small east eurasian admix, might be from Crimean Tatars or Scythians and other nomadic groups of Ukraine.

Michalis Moriopoulos
04-22-2022, 01:30 PM
There are four Azov Greeks (three Grecophones, one Turcophone [Urum]) who have tested with FTDNA:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/AzovGreeks?iframe=yresults

But I don't know how we could get in contact with them to ask of they'd be interested in getting G25 coords. Other than Grikos and Caucasian Greeks (who I expect would just look normal Pontian or maybe Armenian/Caucasus-shifted like the Erzurum Greeks in my dataset), this is really the only Greek population left that we haven't seen represented in a form we can play with. Sure, I'm certain there is affinity with KER-1, but I'd like to see that confirmed.

Avraam Kyriakidis
04-22-2022, 02:03 PM
There are four Azov Greeks (three Grecophones, one Turcophone [Urum]) who have tested with FTDNA:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/AzovGreeks?iframe=yresults

But I don't know how we could get in contact with them to ask of they'd be interested in getting G25 coords. Other than Grikos and Caucasian Greeks (who I expect would just look normal Pontian or maybe Armenian/Caucasus-shifted like the Erzurum Greeks in my dataset), this is really the only Greek population left that we haven't seen represented in a form we can play with. Sure, I'm certain there is affinity with KER-1, but I'd like to see that confirmed.

Iraqi Mandaeans are unsampled as well. Btw, i can give you if you want some western Pontic results from Ordu/Kotyora. They are not exactly east pontic by genetics. I think western Pontics are also unsampled. Most samples we have from Pontus are Trabzonians and Santa/Dumanli(Gumushane).

Tomenable
04-22-2022, 09:55 PM
That "Ostrogothic" ancient DNA is very similar to modern Crimean/Azov/Mariupol Greek genetics.

Yes!

I think KER_1 was a Bosporan Greek and Azov Greeks are mostly descended from them:

(out of >1500 modern populations, Azov Greeks are the top closest population to KER1)*

https://i.imgur.com/shlfsai.png

^^^
Here is a comparison of Eurogenes K36 average for Azov Greeks and K36 scores of KER1.

=====

*In other words, there is no any modern population more similar to KER1 than Azov Greeks.

Here are the top seven Single Item Distances of KER1 to modern populations, based on K36:

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
UA_Azov_Greeks
1.164054
UA_Crimea_Coastal_Tatars**
1.335030
TUR_Konya
1.413092
GR_Chios
1.426472
GR_Lesbos
1.463200
GR_Cyclades
1.480232
TUR_Kirikkale
1.487374
(...)

**Coastal Crimean Tatars are also known as Yalıboylular:

https://ctrcenter.org/en/o-krymskih-tatarah

"(...) Despite the monolithic nature of the Crimean Tatar nation, today it is divided into three main sub-ethnic groups: mountain and foothill - Tatlar, steppe - Noğaylar and south-coastal - Yalıboylular. (...)" - I don't have data for the Tatlar subgroup (mountain & foothill).

Does anyone perhaps have calculator results for Crimea's mountain and foothill Tatars - the Tatlar?

Tomenable
04-22-2022, 10:00 PM
^^^
Autosomally there is nothing Germanic about KER1, he was most likely a Bosporan noble married to an Ostrogothic princcess.

He was buried in the same grave as the princess wearing the Kerch Crown - I wonder why wasn't this princess DNA-tested?!:

https://www.smb.museum/typo3temp/assets/_processed_/5/c/csm_Krone-von-Kertsch_xl_xl_9f546de797.jpg

The ‘Crown of Kerch’. This diadem of a noble lady was discovered in a Migration-period tomb in Kerch, in the ancient city of Panticapaion, Crimea. It is inlayed with red, garnet gemstones. Late 4th/1st half of 5th Century AD. © Römisch-Germanisches Museum/Rheinisches Bildarchiv Cologne.

https://www.smb.museum/typo3temp/assets/_processed_/5/c/csm_Krone-von-Kertsch_xl_xl_9f546de797.jpg

Tomenable
04-22-2022, 10:17 PM
They are a mix of Pontic Greeks with adittional Slavic/Germanic mix.

Here is what I'm getting in K36 nMonte with modern populations for KER1 ancient sample:

(there is nothing Slavic or Germanic about this sample, I used all world's populations - over 1500 - in this run, no pre-selection)

KER_1

GR_East-Thrace-Greeks,31.9
GR_Rhodes,14.1
RUS_Chechnya,9.9
RUS_Buynaksky-District,9
ITA_Lazio,8.2
GE_Georgia-Svaneti,5.7
ISR_Syrian-Jews,5.6
ITA_Tuscany,5.1
JOR_Maan-Governorate,3.2
BG_Haskovo-Province,1.5
LB_North-Governorate,1.4
GE_Georgia-Abkhazia,1.3
GR_Greece-Symi,1
RUS_Adygea,0.8
ISR_Negev-Bedouin,0.5
ITA_Apulia,0.4
GR_Lefkada,0.4

^^^
KER1 was a mix of Greek with North Caucasian and some MENA and perhaps some admixture from Roman settlers (Lazio) too.

I think the North Caucasus-like DNA could be even e.g. from the Tauri (of course it is just a guess, we don't have Tauri samples):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tauri

As for modern Azov Greeks, they appear to have some additional (but rather minor) Slavic admixture when compared to KER1.

=====

2nd nMonte run this time without East Thrace Greeks, Haskovo Bulgarians and Syrian Jews (with these 3 source pops removed):

KER1:

GR_Rhodes,17.5
GR_Lefkada,15.1
RUS_Chechnya,12.3
ITA_Tuscany,12.1
GE_Georgia-Abkhazia,10.1
ITA_Apulia,7.6
GR_Chios,5.9
ITA_Lazio,4.9
ISR_Negev-Bedouin,4.1
RUS_Buynaksky-District,3.9
GR_Andros,2.5
GE_Georgia-Svaneti,1.5
RO_Romania-Dobruja,1.4
RUS_Adygea,0.7
GR_Greece-Symi,0.2
GE_Georgia-Imereti,0.1
GE_Georgia-Zugdidi,0.1

^^^
Greek colonies in Crimea were founded by a mix of Ionian & Doric Greeks (so for example that high % of Lefkada makes sense):

https://www.encyclopedia.com/humanities/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/greek-colonies-east

(the Sindones from the map below were apparently ancestors of modern Circassians: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sindi_people)

https://i.imgur.com/DHRUg13.jpg

Ethnic history of Crimea until the emergence of Crimean Tatars (timeline and video):

1000 BC - Tauri and Cimmerians inhabit Crimea
600 BC - Tauri and Scythians inhabit Crimea
500 BC - Tauri, Greek settlers and Scythians
480 BC - Tauri, Bosporan Greeks and Scythians
200 BC - Bosporan Greeks, Tauri, Scythians and Sarmatians
109 BC - Bosporan Greeks (vassals of Pontic Greeks), Scythians, Sarmatians
63 BC - Bosporan Greeks (vassals of Rome), Scythians and Sarmatians
250 AD - Bosporan Greeks, Scythians and Sarmatians
300 AD - Bosporan Greeks and Ostrogoths
375 AD - Hunnic Empire conquers Crimea
453 AD - Goths regain independence, Byzantines liberate Bosporan Greeks
650 AD - Bulgars subjugate Crimean Goths
750 AD - Khazar Empire conquers most of Crimea
965 AD - East Slavs form the Principality of Timutarakan in eastern Crimea
988 AD - Principality of Timutarakan captures Chersonesus, but gives it back
1000 AD - Pechenegs conquer northern parts of Crimea
1036 AD - Pechenegs defeated by Kievan Rus, north Crimea captured by Cumans
1083 AD - Byzantine Crimeans conquer the Slavic Principality of Timutarakan
1200 AD - north Crimea (Steppes) ruled by Cumans, southern by the Byzantines
1204 AD - Byzantine Crimean territories are now ruled by the Empire of Trebizond
1238 AD - Mongol Golden Horde invades northern Crimea and defeats the Cumans
1266 AD - Genoese Italians buy the city of Caffa (Feodosia) from the Mongol Khan
1313 AD - Golden Horde's Khan converts to Islam - Islam spreads into Crimea
1330 AD - Principality of Theodoro gains independence from the Empire of Trebizond
1400 AD - Crimea invaded by Tamerlan (Timurids), Genoa captures Greek cities
1449 AD - Independent Crimean Khanate emerges in former Golden Horde areas


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0-fLgWoxIY

Another interesting video:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FS-N-a-qkvg

Tomenable
04-22-2022, 10:48 PM
Buynaksky District = ethnic Kumyks if someone is wondering.

=====

BTW is it possible to generate simulated G25 coordinates from the Azov Greeks K36 data which I posted?

vettor
04-22-2022, 11:02 PM
Genoese and Venetian trade was involved in white slavery during the byzantine times......with Genoa controlling many balck sea sites like crimea and Georgia .......and Venice restricted to only 2 areaa, bulgaria and Azov ( called Tana under Venice )

it was not thousands

https://i.postimg.cc/pL0176YR/white-slavery.png (https://postimages.org/)


in spite of the ban on the sale of Greeks in Christian markets, Christians merchants – both Aragonese ( Catalan ) and Italian – continued to raid the coastlines of the islands and mainland of Greece for captives whom they sold in Muslim markets.

Domestic slavery in Italy declined over the second half of the fifteenth century without disappearing altogether. Italian merchants lost access to the eastern slave markets they once relied on. For the Venetians, the markets of Tana, situated at the end of important caravan routes from Central Asia, remained open to them only for the first half of the fifteenth century. The Genoese managed to retain their base in Kaffa until 1475, when they lost access to the Black Sea to the Ottomans.

When the source of Black Sea slaves dried up, Venetian slave-owning and slave-trading declined. Genoese slave-trading, too, began to decline, although they remained involved in the on-going Aragonese slave trade in the Atlantic.

Tomenable
04-22-2022, 11:06 PM
Genoese and Venetian trade was involved in white slavery during the byzantine times......with Genoa controlling many balck sea sites like crimea and Georgia .......and Venice restricted to only 2 areaa, bulgaria and Azov ( called Tana under Venice )

it was not thousands

https://i.postimg.cc/pL0176YR/white-slavery.png (https://postimages.org/)

However any possible admixure from these slaves can't explain KER1's autosomal results because KER1 is older than Genoese control of Crimea.

Only modern Mariupol/Crimean/Azov Greeks might have some admixture from these slaves - but not much, because they are still close to KER1.

Tomenable
04-23-2022, 01:28 AM
Map showing Greeks in the Russian Empire in 1897 including Mariupol County (District) which had the largest Greek community:

https://i.imgur.com/oT2zEBY.png

Avraam Kyriakidis
04-23-2022, 05:49 AM
Here is what I'm getting in K36 nMonte with modern populations for KER1 ancient sample:

(there is nothing Slavic or Germanic about this sample, I used all world's populations - over 1500 - in this run, no pre-selection)

KER_1

GR_East-Thrace-Greeks,31.9
GR_Rhodes,14.1
RUS_Chechnya,9.9
RUS_Buynaksky-District,9
ITA_Lazio,8.2
GE_Georgia-Svaneti,5.7
ISR_Syrian-Jews,5.6
ITA_Tuscany,5.1
JOR_Maan-Governorate,3.2
BG_Haskovo-Province,1.5
LB_North-Governorate,1.4
GE_Georgia-Abkhazia,1.3
GR_Greece-Symi,1
RUS_Adygea,0.8
ISR_Negev-Bedouin,0.5
ITA_Apulia,0.4
GR_Lefkada,0.4

^^^
KER1 was a mix of Greek with North Caucasian and some MENA and perhaps some admixture from Roman settlers (Lazio) too.

I think the North Caucasus-like DNA could be even e.g. from the Tauri (of course it is just a guess, we don't have Tauri samples):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tauri

As for modern Azov Greeks, they appear to have some additional (but rather minor) Slavic admixture when compared to KER1.

=====

2nd nMonte run this time without East Thrace Greeks, Haskovo Bulgarians and Syrian Jews (with these 3 source pops removed):

KER1:

GR_Rhodes,17.5
GR_Lefkada,15.1
RUS_Chechnya,12.3
ITA_Tuscany,12.1
GE_Georgia-Abkhazia,10.1
ITA_Apulia,7.6
GR_Chios,5.9
ITA_Lazio,4.9
ISR_Negev-Bedouin,4.1
RUS_Buynaksky-District,3.9
GR_Andros,2.5
GE_Georgia-Svaneti,1.5
RO_Romania-Dobruja,1.4
RUS_Adygea,0.7
GR_Greece-Symi,0.2
GE_Georgia-Imereti,0.1
GE_Georgia-Zugdidi,0.1

^^^
Greek colonies in Crimea were founded by a mix of Ionian & Doric Greeks (so for example that high % of Lefkada makes sense):

https://www.encyclopedia.com/humanities/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/greek-colonies-east

(the Sindones from the map below were apparently ancestors of modern Circassians: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sindi_people)

https://i.imgur.com/DHRUg13.jpg

Ethnic history of Crimea until the emergence of Crimean Tatars (timeline and video):

1000 BC - Tauri and Cimmerians inhabit Crimea
600 BC - Tauri and Scythians inhabit Crimea
500 BC - Tauri, Greek settlers and Scythians
480 BC - Tauri, Bosporan Greeks and Scythians
200 BC - Bosporan Greeks, Tauri, Scythians and Sarmatians
109 BC - Bosporan Greeks (vassals of Pontic Greeks), Scythians, Sarmatians
63 BC - Bosporan Greeks (vassals of Rome), Scythians and Sarmatians
250 AD - Bosporan Greeks, Scythians and Sarmatians
300 AD - Bosporan Greeks and Ostrogoths
375 AD - Hunnic Empire conquers Crimea
453 AD - Goths regain independence, Byzantines liberate Bosporan Greeks
650 AD - Bulgars subjugate Crimean Goths
750 AD - Khazar Empire conquers most of Crimea
965 AD - East Slavs form the Principality of Timutarakan in eastern Crimea
988 AD - Principality of Timutarakan captures Chersonesus, but gives it back
1000 AD - Pechenegs conquer northern parts of Crimea
1036 AD - Pechenegs defeated by Kievan Rus, north Crimea captured by Cumans
1083 AD - Byzantine Crimeans conquer the Slavic Principality of Timutarakan
1200 AD - north Crimea (Steppes) ruled by Cumans, southern by the Byzantines
1204 AD - Byzantine Crimean territories are now ruled by the Empire of Trebizond
1238 AD - Mongol Golden Horde invades northern Crimea and defeats the Cumans
1266 AD - Genoese Italians buy the city of Caffa (Feodosia) from the Mongol Khan
1313 AD - Golden Horde's Khan converts to Islam - Islam spreads into Crimea
1330 AD - Principality of Theodoro gains independence from the Empire of Trebizond
1400 AD - Crimea invaded by Tamerlan (Timurids), Genoa captures Greek cities
1449 AD - Independent Crimean Khanate emerges in former Golden Horde areas


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0-fLgWoxIY

Another interesting video:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FS-N-a-qkvg

These are the MDLP World-22 components in order:

Pygmy
West-Asian
North-European-Mesolithic
Indo-Tibetan
Mesoamerican
Arctic-Amerind
South-America_Amerind -
Indian
North-Siberean
Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic
Samoedic
Indo-Iranian
East-Siberean
North-East-European
South-African -
North-Amerind
Sub-Saharian -
East-South-Asian
Near_East
Melanesian -
Paleo-Siberian
Austronesian

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1kYUlhYoeKSVU32StUdiAl5DhJYYk6hdGqHo5vquadBY/edit#gid=0

Not sure what about their steppe source. But their MENA input is def coming from Pontic like genetics. Now, when i am watching videos or interviews with them i can say that many of them look very Slavic to my eyes. Almost like Ukranian immigrants in Greece.

Tomenable
04-23-2022, 08:28 AM
But their MENA input is def coming from Pontic like genetics. Now, when i am watching videos or interviews with them i can say that many of them look very Slavic to my eyes. Almost like Ukranian immigrants in Greece.

What you call Pontic-like genetics is simply CHG-rich genetics.

It was present near Kerch Peninsula thousands of years ago.

Sample I2051, Dolmen 1410-1210 BC, is from the vicinity of Crimea:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-08220-8#data-availability

Here is how I2051 scores in K36:

Amerindian 0
Arabian 2.05
Armenian 24.7
Basque 1.76
Central_African 0
Central_Euro 3.23
East_African 0.17
East_Asian 0
East_Balkan 0
East_Central_Asian 0
East_Central_Euro 0
East_Med 0
Eastern_Euro 0
Fennoscandian 0
French 4.64
Iberian 0
Indo-Chinese 0
Italian 0
Malayan 0
Near_Eastern 5.63
North_African 2.6
North_Atlantic 0
North_Caucasian 33.7
North_Sea 0
Northeast_African 0
Oceanian 0
Omotic 0
Pygmy 0
Siberian 0
South_Asian 0
South_Central_Asian 0
South_Chinese 0
Volga-Ural 0
West_African 0
West_Caucasian 21.5
West_Med 0

23abc
04-23-2022, 08:48 AM
If they are similar to KER-1, then they are best modelled as a mix of North Caucasian and South Italian-like admixture. Last time I checked KER-1 gets pretty good two way fits with models like Imperial_Rome + Chechen. I would assume they must be at least a bit Slavic shifted compared to KER-1, though, even if that ends up being the 'base' autosomal.

Tomenable
04-23-2022, 09:00 AM
If they are similar to KER-1, then they are best modelled as a mix of North Caucasian and South Italian-like admixture. Last time I checked KER-1 gets pretty good two way fits with models like Imperial_Rome + Chechen. I would assume they must be at least a bit Slavic shifted compared to KER-1, though, even if that ends up being the 'base' autosomal.

Yes, South Italian-like or Insular Greek. And North Caucasian.

Avraam Kyriakidis
04-23-2022, 09:10 AM
What you call Pontic-like genetics is simply CHG-rich genetics.

It was present near Kerch Peninsula thousands of years ago.

Sample I2051, Dolmen 1410-1210 BC, is from the vicinity of Crimea:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-08220-8#data-availability

Here is how I2051 scores in K36:

Amerindian 0
Arabian 2.05
Armenian 24.7
Basque 1.76
Central_African 0
Central_Euro 3.23
East_African 0.17
East_Asian 0
East_Balkan 0
East_Central_Asian 0
East_Central_Euro 0
East_Med 0
Eastern_Euro 0
Fennoscandian 0
French 4.64
Iberian 0
Indo-Chinese 0
Italian 0
Malayan 0
Near_Eastern 5.63
North_African 2.6
North_Atlantic 0
North_Caucasian 33.7
North_Sea 0
Northeast_African 0
Oceanian 0
Omotic 0
Pygmy 0
Siberian 0
South_Asian 0
South_Central_Asian 0
South_Chinese 0
Volga-Ural 0
West_African 0
West_Caucasian 21.5
West_Med 0

I am speaking about Azov Greeks. By MENA i mean Levant N. Pontics are Rich in Levant N as well. They are a mix of Anatolian N,CHG, Levant N and Iran N.

The Ostrogothic Crimean sample is Rich in Levant N. It has nothing to do with N. Caucasians. Its a mix of Pontic Greek with something western Scythian like(rich steppe+east eurasian).

49307

Tomenable
04-23-2022, 09:26 AM
By MENA i mean Levant N.

Levant N made its way to the Caucasus early on and unmixed CHG ceased to exist. This why David Anthony claims that:

"CHG have to have gotten into the steppes from the Caucasus before 6500-6000 BC" - because after 6000 BC all of Caucasus was already Levant N admixed.

That Dolmen culture sample I2051 clearly had Levant N as well - why has it not been added to G25 datasheets so far?:

https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#10/44.5613/38.4557

Avraam Kyriakidis
04-23-2022, 09:30 AM
Levant N made its way to the Caucasus early on and unmixed CHG ceased to exist. This why David Anthony claims that:

"CHG have to have gotten into the steppes from the Caucasus before 6500-6000 BC" - because after 6000 BC all of Caucasus was already Levant N admixed.

That Dolmen culture sample I2051 clearly had Levant N as well - why has it not been added to G25 datasheets so far?:

https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#10/44.5613/38.4557

Levant N exist in caucasus but def not in these high amounts. 24% its a lot of Levant and only Pontics and Armenians/Assyrians can score so high of it.

Dolmen culture was mostly CHG. Its Levant N mix would had been very low

Tomenable
04-23-2022, 09:44 AM
In any case, Levant N present in KER1 and in Azov Greeks could come from Ancient Greeks who lived in Greece - not necessarily from Pontic Greeks.

There is no reason to assume that Azov Greeks and KER1 have had any substantial ancestry from Pontic Greeks, in my opinion.

=====

Pontic Greeks are mostly Hellenized Lazi & Kaskians, and probably have less admixture from "Greece Proper" than Azov Greeks:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laz_people

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaskians

https://i.imgur.com/b2zE8wI.jpg

Alkaevli
04-23-2022, 11:23 AM
**Coastal Crimean Tatars are also known as Yalıboylular:

https://ctrcenter.org/en/o-krymskih-tatarah

"(...) Despite the monolithic nature of the Crimean Tatar nation, today it is divided into three main sub-ethnic groups: mountain and foothill - Tatlar, steppe - Noğaylar and south-coastal - Yalıboylular. (...)" - I don't have data for the Tatlar subgroup (mountain & foothill).

Does anyone perhaps have calculator results for Crimea's mountain and foothill Tatars - the Tatlar?

We have two samples from the mountain subgroup (Tat) of Crimean Tatars. They are genetically between Steppe (Çöl) Tatars and Coastal Tatars (Yalıboylular who resemble KER_1).

Our project's samples:

Crimean_Tatar_Steppe (n=11)
Crimean_Tatar_Mountain (n=2)
Crimean_Tatar_Coast (n=2)
Crimean_Karaite (n=1)

https://abload.de/img/adszo5jp3.png


Crimean_Tatar_Mountain1
https://abload.de/img/crm1xek0l.png

Single Population Approximation List:

1. Crimean_Tatar_Mountain @ 5,52676
2. Crimean_Tatar_Coast @ 6,308035
3. Turk_Northwestern_Anatolia @ 7,651366
4. Turk_Bolu @ 8,855512
5. Turk_Western_Black_Sea_&_Northwestern_Central_Anatolia @ 9,181107
6. Turk_Eastern_Thrace @ 9,206203
7. Turk_Bulgaria_South @ 9,215084
8. Turk_Southwestern_Anatolia @ 10,013062
9. Turk_Greece @ 10,683893
10. Turk_Muğla @ 11,34224
11. Greek_Lemnos @ 11,644132
12. KER_1_Ostrogothic_Crimea @ 11,647194
13. Turk_Bulgaria_North @ 12,060188
14. Turk_Western_Central_Anatolia @ 12,06227
15. Turk_Southern_Anatolia_(Mersin_&_Adana) @ 12,292035
16. Turk_Western_Black_Sea_(Kastamonu_&_Sinop) @ 12,675651
17. Italian_Apulia @ 12,879441
18. Greek_Peloponnese @ 13,361687
19. Greek_Athens @ 13,383538
20. Bulgarian_Thrace @ 13,459977

2-Population Approximation List:

1. %80 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain + %20 Greek_Nigde @ 2,227235
2. %69 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain + %31 KER_1_Ostrogothic_Crimea @ 2,236043
3. %79 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain + %21 Greek_Kastellorizo @ 2,346541
4. %36 Moldavian_Center + %64 Turk_Central_Black_Sea_(Giresun_&_Ordu) @ 2,411599
5. %35 Serb + %65 Turk_Central_Black_Sea_(Giresun_&_Ordu) @ 2,437066
6. %31 Croat + %69 Turk_Central_Black_Sea_(Giresun_&_Ordu) @ 2,453304
7. %54 Turk_Bulgaria_North + %46 Turk_Central_Black_Sea_(Giresun_&_Ordu) @ 2,470146
8. %77 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain + %23 Greek_Kos @ 2,510853
9. %78 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain + %22 Greek_Rhodes @ 2,522762
10. %32 Bosnian + %68 Turk_Central_Black_Sea_(Giresun_&_Ordu) @ 2,527563
11. %81 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain + %19 Greek_Kayseri @ 2,529056
12. %33 Moldavian_North + %67 Turk_Central_Black_Sea_(Giresun_&_Ordu) @ 2,542403
13. %26 Moldavian_Center + %74 Turk_Western_Black_Sea_&_Northwestern_Central_Anatolia @ 2,565335
14. %24 Moldavian_North + %76 Turk_Western_Black_Sea_&_Northwestern_Central_Anatolia @ 2,570239
15. %80 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain + %20 Greek_Symi @ 2,580599
16. %22 Croat + %78 Turk_Western_Black_Sea_&_Northwestern_Central_Anatolia @ 2,598948
17. %42 Moldavian_South + %58 Turk_Central_Black_Sea_(Giresun_&_Ordu) @ 2,616365
18. %23 Bosnian + %77 Turk_Western_Black_Sea_&_Northwestern_Central_Anatolia @ 2,61882
19. %76 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain + %24 Greek_Crete @ 2,644188
20. %29 Slovenian + %71 Turk_Central_Black_Sea_(Giresun_&_Ordu) @ 2,653799


Crimean_Tatar_Mountain2
https://abload.de/img/crm2j1jqz.png

Single Population Approximation List:

1. Crimean_Tatar_Mountain @ 5,521957
2. Nogai_ShomishlyAs_1_Beshtau @ 7,814979
3. Turk_Bulgaria_South @ 9,359759
4. Turk_Bulgaria_North @ 11,255056
5. Turk_Eastern_Thrace @ 11,642864
6. Nogai_Unknown_1_Beshtau @ 11,747617
7. Nogai_Naiman_2_Koban @ 12,116844
8. Turk_Greece @ 12,211858
9. Nogai_Ming_1_Dagestan @ 12,539912
10. Turk_Bolu @ 12,828437
11. Crimean_Tatar_Steppe @ 13,701595
12. Turk_Muğla @ 13,739946
13. Turk_Northwestern_Anatolia @ 13,914204
14. Lipka_Tatar @ 14,504754
15. MA2196_Ottoman @ 14,629747
16. Crimean_Tatar_Coast @ 15,505942
17. Nogai @ 15,986952
18. Nogai_Naiman_1_Dagestan @ 15,997563
19. Turk_Southwestern_Anatolia @ 16,531475
20. Turk_Western_Black_Sea_&_Northwestern_Central_Anatolia @ 16,579995

2-Population Approximation List:

1. %87 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain + %13 DA13_CentralSaka @ 1,418567
2. %86 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain + %14 DA74_TianShanHun @ 1,507753
3. %84 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain + %16 DA100_TianShanHun @ 1,592082
4. %86 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain + %14 DA385_TianShanHun @ 1,603374
5. %70 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain + %30 Nogai_Ming_1_Dagestan @ 1,833179
6. %18 Bashkir_Central + %82 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain @ 1,94229
7. %41 Nogai_Naiman_1_Dagestan + %59 Turk_Bulgaria_North @ 1,973765
8. %85 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain + %15 cim359_Cimmerian @ 2,023195
9. %74 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain + %26 Lipka_Tatar @ 2,023915
10. %85 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain + %15 DA56_TianShanSaka @ 2,043285
11. %16 Bashkir_South + %84 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain @ 2,067388
12. %43 Nogai_Naiman_2_Koban + %57 Turk_Bulgaria_South @ 2,102169
13. %40 DA74_TianShanHun + %60 KER_1_Ostrogothic_Crimea @ 2,114268
14. %50 Nogai_Naiman_2_Koban + %50 Turk_Greece @ 2,228878
15. %70 Crimean_Tatar_Coast + %30 DA13_CentralSaka @ 2,271208
16. %36 Nogai_Naiman_1_Dagestan + %64 Turk_Bulgaria_South @ 2,272481
17. %83 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain + %17 DA65_TianShanHun @ 2,275451
18. %49 Nogai_Naiman_2_Koban + %51 Turk_Eastern_Thrace @ 2,289419
19. %88 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain + %12 DA41_Xiongnu @ 2,324514
20. %41 Tatar_Kazan + %59 Turk_Southwestern_Anatolia @ 2,333046

Avraam Kyriakidis
04-23-2022, 11:31 AM
In any case, Levant N present in KER1 and in Azov Greeks could come from Ancient Greeks who lived in Greece - not necessarily from Pontic Greeks.

There is no reason to assume that Azov Greeks and KER1 have had any substantial ancestry from Pontic Greeks, in my opinion.

=====

Pontic Greeks are mostly Hellenized Lazi & Kaskians, and probably have less admixture from "Greece Proper" than Azov Greeks:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laz_people

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaskians

https://i.imgur.com/b2zE8wI.jpg

Ancient Greeks did not had Levant N. Dont confuse Ancient Greeks with Modern Greeks. Levant N in the Greek world is a Hellenistic/Roman issue. You can check Bronze Age and Classical Greeks(Lazaridis et Al).

As for Pontic Greeks they are a mix of Colchian tribes who were probably Kartvelian speakers. Genetically like modern Laz and Western Georgians(Mengrel/Imeretians). So what you said about the Laz is wrong. Laz its a Colchian tribe that arrived in Pontus during medieval times to escape from Arabs. Laz are not identical to Pontics, they are not even identical to Western Georgians. They are between Mengrels/Imeretians and East Pontics when It comes to autosomal dna.While Pontics are a mix of west Georgians(Mengrel like) and the rest being something Cappadocian Greek/Armenian like but without steppe. Dunno what population/tribe is resposible for this mix. Could be Hurro-urartians or kaskians like you mention. We need Iron Age Anatolian samples.

chum
04-23-2022, 11:38 AM
We have two samples from the mountain subgroup (Tat) of Crimean Tatars. They are genetically between Steppe (Çöl) Tatars and Coastal Tatars (Yalıboylular who resemble KER_1).

Our project's samples:

Crimean_Tatar_Steppe (n=11)
Crimean_Tatar_Mountain (n=2)
Crimean_Tatar_Coast (n=2)
Crimean_Karaite (n=1)

https://abload.de/img/adszo5jp3.png


Crimean_Tatar_Mountain1
https://abload.de/img/crm1xek0l.png

Single Population Approximation List:

1. Crimean_Tatar_Mountain @ 5,52676
2. Crimean_Tatar_Coast @ 6,308035
3. Turk_Northwestern_Anatolia @ 7,651366
4. Turk_Bolu @ 8,855512
5. Turk_Western_Black_Sea_&_Northwestern_Central_Anatolia @ 9,181107
6. Turk_Eastern_Thrace @ 9,206203
7. Turk_Bulgaria_South @ 9,215084
8. Turk_Southwestern_Anatolia @ 10,013062
9. Turk_Greece @ 10,683893
10. Turk_Muğla @ 11,34224
11. Greek_Lemnos @ 11,644132
12. KER_1_Ostrogothic_Crimea @ 11,647194
13. Turk_Bulgaria_North @ 12,060188
14. Turk_Western_Central_Anatolia @ 12,06227
15. Turk_Southern_Anatolia_(Mersin_&_Adana) @ 12,292035
16. Turk_Western_Black_Sea_(Kastamonu_&_Sinop) @ 12,675651
17. Italian_Apulia @ 12,879441
18. Greek_Peloponnese @ 13,361687
19. Greek_Athens @ 13,383538
20. Bulgarian_Thrace @ 13,459977

2-Population Approximation List:

1. %80 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain + %20 Greek_Nigde @ 2,227235
2. %69 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain + %31 KER_1_Ostrogothic_Crimea @ 2,236043
3. %79 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain + %21 Greek_Kastellorizo @ 2,346541
4. %36 Moldavian_Center + %64 Turk_Central_Black_Sea_(Giresun_&_Ordu) @ 2,411599
5. %35 Serb + %65 Turk_Central_Black_Sea_(Giresun_&_Ordu) @ 2,437066
6. %31 Croat + %69 Turk_Central_Black_Sea_(Giresun_&_Ordu) @ 2,453304
7. %54 Turk_Bulgaria_North + %46 Turk_Central_Black_Sea_(Giresun_&_Ordu) @ 2,470146
8. %77 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain + %23 Greek_Kos @ 2,510853
9. %78 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain + %22 Greek_Rhodes @ 2,522762
10. %32 Bosnian + %68 Turk_Central_Black_Sea_(Giresun_&_Ordu) @ 2,527563
11. %81 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain + %19 Greek_Kayseri @ 2,529056
12. %33 Moldavian_North + %67 Turk_Central_Black_Sea_(Giresun_&_Ordu) @ 2,542403
13. %26 Moldavian_Center + %74 Turk_Western_Black_Sea_&_Northwestern_Central_Anatolia @ 2,565335
14. %24 Moldavian_North + %76 Turk_Western_Black_Sea_&_Northwestern_Central_Anatolia @ 2,570239
15. %80 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain + %20 Greek_Symi @ 2,580599
16. %22 Croat + %78 Turk_Western_Black_Sea_&_Northwestern_Central_Anatolia @ 2,598948
17. %42 Moldavian_South + %58 Turk_Central_Black_Sea_(Giresun_&_Ordu) @ 2,616365
18. %23 Bosnian + %77 Turk_Western_Black_Sea_&_Northwestern_Central_Anatolia @ 2,61882
19. %76 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain + %24 Greek_Crete @ 2,644188
20. %29 Slovenian + %71 Turk_Central_Black_Sea_(Giresun_&_Ordu) @ 2,653799


Crimean_Tatar_Mountain2
https://abload.de/img/crm2j1jqz.png

Single Population Approximation List:

1. Crimean_Tatar_Mountain @ 5,521957
2. Nogai_ShomishlyAs_1_Beshtau @ 7,814979
3. Turk_Bulgaria_South @ 9,359759
4. Turk_Bulgaria_North @ 11,255056
5. Turk_Eastern_Thrace @ 11,642864
6. Nogai_Unknown_1_Beshtau @ 11,747617
7. Nogai_Naiman_2_Koban @ 12,116844
8. Turk_Greece @ 12,211858
9. Nogai_Ming_1_Dagestan @ 12,539912
10. Turk_Bolu @ 12,828437
11. Crimean_Tatar_Steppe @ 13,701595
12. Turk_Muğla @ 13,739946
13. Turk_Northwestern_Anatolia @ 13,914204
14. Lipka_Tatar @ 14,504754
15. MA2196_Ottoman @ 14,629747
16. Crimean_Tatar_Coast @ 15,505942
17. Nogai @ 15,986952
18. Nogai_Naiman_1_Dagestan @ 15,997563
19. Turk_Southwestern_Anatolia @ 16,531475
20. Turk_Western_Black_Sea_&_Northwestern_Central_Anatolia @ 16,579995

2-Population Approximation List:

1. %87 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain + %13 DA13_CentralSaka @ 1,418567
2. %86 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain + %14 DA74_TianShanHun @ 1,507753
3. %84 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain + %16 DA100_TianShanHun @ 1,592082
4. %86 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain + %14 DA385_TianShanHun @ 1,603374
5. %70 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain + %30 Nogai_Ming_1_Dagestan @ 1,833179
6. %18 Bashkir_Central + %82 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain @ 1,94229
7. %41 Nogai_Naiman_1_Dagestan + %59 Turk_Bulgaria_North @ 1,973765
8. %85 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain + %15 cim359_Cimmerian @ 2,023195
9. %74 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain + %26 Lipka_Tatar @ 2,023915
10. %85 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain + %15 DA56_TianShanSaka @ 2,043285
11. %16 Bashkir_South + %84 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain @ 2,067388
12. %43 Nogai_Naiman_2_Koban + %57 Turk_Bulgaria_South @ 2,102169
13. %40 DA74_TianShanHun + %60 KER_1_Ostrogothic_Crimea @ 2,114268
14. %50 Nogai_Naiman_2_Koban + %50 Turk_Greece @ 2,228878
15. %70 Crimean_Tatar_Coast + %30 DA13_CentralSaka @ 2,271208
16. %36 Nogai_Naiman_1_Dagestan + %64 Turk_Bulgaria_South @ 2,272481
17. %83 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain + %17 DA65_TianShanHun @ 2,275451
18. %49 Nogai_Naiman_2_Koban + %51 Turk_Eastern_Thrace @ 2,289419
19. %88 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain + %12 DA41_Xiongnu @ 2,324514
20. %41 Tatar_Kazan + %59 Turk_Southwestern_Anatolia @ 2,333046

Are there K13 coordinates for these samples that we could make G25 simulations of?

Alkaevli
04-23-2022, 12:06 PM
Are there K13 coordinates for these samples that we could make G25 simulations of?
Eurogenes K13 (comma separated, is this the correct format?)

Crimean_Tatar_Steppe1,18.31,17.21,7.31,14.75,9.24, 1.21,3.92,11.02,14.17,2.38,0.09,0.37,0
Crimean_Tatar_Steppe2,12.7,25.39,7.77,11.38,5.82,2 .15,2.09,10.2,20.74,0.91,0.52,0,0.33
Crimean_Tatar_Steppe3,16.31,23.1,7.47,11.89,4.6,1. 57,2.59,12.54,17.12,1.38,0.48,0.64,0.31
Crimean_Tatar_Steppe4,18.33,13.5,5.8,13.66,6.28,0. 49,3.12,14.41,21.75,1.76,0.91,0,0
Crimean_Tatar_Steppe5,9.81,23.56,4.09,16.14,9.85,0 ,1.7,14.87,19.21,0.14,0.2,0,0.43
Crimean_Tatar_Steppe7,11.65,16.36,9.3,15.71,7.7,2. 54,7.43,9.4,17.47,2.27,0.16,0,0
Crimean_Tatar_Steppe8,14.02,20.59,2.99,16.28,8.98, 1.48,3.2,11.52,18.34,2.25,0,0.3,0
Crimean_Tatar_Steppe9,16.35,19.88,6,16.98,8.62,2.5 5,2.89,9.57,15.19,0.92,0,0.97,0.08
Crimean_Tatar_Steppe10,10.04,20.29,7.22,12.63,6.53 ,2.73,5.15,13.46,21.15,0.8,0,0,0
Crimean_Tatar_Steppe11,15.74,19.39,7.49,12.66,5.24 ,1.89,2.05,12.12,21.73,0.64,0,1.04,0
Crimean_Tatar_Mountain1,17.18,12.59,9.99,21.71,21. 91,3.19,1.89,5.42,5.03,0.15,0,0.6,0.34
Crimean_Tatar_Mountain2,15.18,16.64,9.81,22.74,13. 28,3.04,1.8,5.52,10.39,1.29,0,0,0.29
Crimean_Tatar_Coast1,15.81,14.32,14.51,22.01,25.78 ,3.21,1.06,0.18,1.19,1.54,0.1,0.23,0.06
Crimean_Tatar_Coast2,18.37,10.58,16.66,25.03,23.25 ,1.09,0,2.26,1.18,0,1.41,0,0.16
Crimean_Karaite1,9.41,7.34,13.99,22.87,33,6.57,3.0 6,1.94,1.83,0,0,0,0

chum
04-23-2022, 12:53 PM
Eurogenes K13 (comma separated, is this the correct format?)

Crimean_Tatar_Steppe1,18.31,17.21,7.31,14.75,9.24, 1.21,3.92,11.02,14.17,2.38,0.09,0.37,0
Crimean_Tatar_Steppe2,12.7,25.39,7.77,11.38,5.82,2 .15,2.09,10.2,20.74,0.91,0.52,0,0.33
Crimean_Tatar_Steppe3,16.31,23.1,7.47,11.89,4.6,1. 57,2.59,12.54,17.12,1.38,0.48,0.64,0.31
Crimean_Tatar_Steppe4,18.33,13.5,5.8,13.66,6.28,0. 49,3.12,14.41,21.75,1.76,0.91,0,0
Crimean_Tatar_Steppe5,9.81,23.56,4.09,16.14,9.85,0 ,1.7,14.87,19.21,0.14,0.2,0,0.43
Crimean_Tatar_Steppe7,11.65,16.36,9.3,15.71,7.7,2. 54,7.43,9.4,17.47,2.27,0.16,0,0
Crimean_Tatar_Steppe8,14.02,20.59,2.99,16.28,8.98, 1.48,3.2,11.52,18.34,2.25,0,0.3,0
Crimean_Tatar_Steppe9,16.35,19.88,6,16.98,8.62,2.5 5,2.89,9.57,15.19,0.92,0,0.97,0.08
Crimean_Tatar_Steppe10,10.04,20.29,7.22,12.63,6.53 ,2.73,5.15,13.46,21.15,0.8,0,0,0
Crimean_Tatar_Steppe11,15.74,19.39,7.49,12.66,5.24 ,1.89,2.05,12.12,21.73,0.64,0,1.04,0
Crimean_Tatar_Mountain1,17.18,12.59,9.99,21.71,21. 91,3.19,1.89,5.42,5.03,0.15,0,0.6,0.34
Crimean_Tatar_Mountain2,15.18,16.64,9.81,22.74,13. 28,3.04,1.8,5.52,10.39,1.29,0,0,0.29
Crimean_Tatar_Coast1,15.81,14.32,14.51,22.01,25.78 ,3.21,1.06,0.18,1.19,1.54,0.1,0.23,0.06
Crimean_Tatar_Coast2,18.37,10.58,16.66,25.03,23.25 ,1.09,0,2.26,1.18,0,1.41,0,0.16
Crimean_Karaite1,9.41,7.34,13.99,22.87,33,6.57,3.0 6,1.94,1.83,0,0,0,0


Simulated:

Crimean_Tatar_Steppe1_K13_sim,0.0942,-0.0268,0.0327,0.0066,-0.0093,0.0002,0.0007,0.0034,-0.0082,-0.01,-0.0082,0,0.0016,-0.0164,-0.0035,-0.0019,0.0008,-0.0011,-0.0064,-0.0007,-0.0019,0.0004,-0.0023,-0.0012,-0.0012
Crimean_Tatar_Steppe2_K13_sim,0.0897,-0.0651,0.0482,0.0126,-0.0174,-0.0104,0.0057,0.0089,-0.0013,-0.0088,0.0055,-0.0011,0.0057,-0.0206,-0.0097,-0.0021,0.0034,-0.0004,-0.0046,-0.0016,0.0011,0.0021,0.0002,0,-0.0014
Crimean_Tatar_Steppe3_K13_sim,0.0938,-0.0468,0.0414,0.0113,-0.0041,-0.0012,0.0042,0.0063,-0.0073,-0.0105,-0.0026,-0.0006,0.0043,-0.0173,-0.0075,-0.0021,0.0045,-0.0015,-0.0066,-0.0008,0.0002,-0.001,-0.0036,0.0012,-0.0032
Crimean_Tatar_Steppe4_K13_sim,0.0881,-0.0904,0.04,0.0085,-0.0158,-0.0053,0.007,0.0071,-0.0014,-0.0039,-0.007,0.0007,0.0018,-0.0158,-0.0006,0.0049,0.0059,0.0009,-0.0037,-0.0025,-0.0036,0.0035,-0.0013,-0.0013,-0.003
Crimean_Tatar_Steppe5_K13_sim,0.0844,-0.0839,0.0332,0.0031,-0.0185,-0.0066,0.0068,0.0074,-0.0052,-0.009,0.0012,-0.0002,0.0018,-0.0166,-0.007,-0.0013,0.0025,-0.0002,-0.0042,-0.0025,0.0029,0.0043,0.003,-0.0011,0.0013
Crimean_Tatar_Steppe7_K13_sim,0.0899,-0.0436,0.0267,0.009,-0.017,-0.0004,0.0043,0.0049,-0.0072,-0.0074,-0.0089,-0.0017,0.004,-0.0136,-0.0042,0.0003,0.0006,-0.0007,-0.0048,-0.0015,-0.0007,-0.0003,-0.0024,0.0001,-0.0001
Crimean_Tatar_Steppe8_K13_sim,0.0917,-0.0558,0.0383,0.013,-0.0171,-0.0011,0.0043,0.0068,-0.0088,-0.0127,-0.0071,-0.0019,0.0062,-0.0158,-0.0062,0.001,0.0059,-0.0013,-0.0066,0.0004,-0.0018,0,-0.0029,0.0035,-0.0003
Crimean_Tatar_Steppe9_K13_sim,0.0944,-0.0164,0.0317,0.0039,-0.0099,-0.0044,0.004,0.0052,-0.0071,-0.0084,-0.0067,-0.0005,0.0027,-0.0149,-0.0067,-0.0001,0.0048,-0.0011,-0.0063,-0.0003,0.0015,0.0006,-0.0031,0.0005,-0.0004
Crimean_Tatar_Steppe10_K13_sim,0.0871,-0.0768,0.0349,0.0062,-0.0169,-0.0027,0.0071,0.0078,-0.004,-0.0085,-0.0083,-0.0022,0.0064,-0.0099,-0.003,-0.0028,-0.006,-0.0018,-0.0029,-0.0065,-0.0023,0.0008,-0.0034,-0.0029,0.0022
Crimean_Tatar_Steppe11_K13_sim,0.0882,-0.0733,0.0441,0.003,-0.0193,-0.0099,0.0071,0.0081,-0.0002,-0.0045,-0.0045,0.0001,0.0027,-0.0177,-0.0057,0.0004,0.0044,0.0007,-0.0037,-0.0029,0.0008,0.0045,0.0002,-0.0006,-0.0011
Crimean_Tatar_Mountain1_K13_sim,0.1022,0.0842,-0.0039,-0.0212,-0.0001,-0.0022,0.0033,0.0031,-0.0133,-0.0012,-0.0057,0.0015,-0.0027,0.0038,0,-0.0084,-0.0112,0.0014,-0.0028,-0.0027,0.0056,0.0016,0.0008,-0.0008,0.0009
Crimean_Tatar_Mountain2_K13_sim,0.1015,0.037,0.017 8,-0.0012,-0.0116,-0.0043,0.0048,0.002,-0.0102,-0.0115,0.0012,-0.0003,-0.0015,-0.0096,-0.0037,-0.0014,0.0008,-0.0007,-0.0056,0,0.0036,0.006,0.0001,-0.002,-0.0008
Crimean_Tatar_Coast1_K13_sim,0.1138,0.1345,-0.004,-0.0179,-0.0032,-0.0028,-0.0008,-0.0045,-0.0099,0.0016,0.0054,0.0002,-0.0063,0.0052,-0.0075,-0.0066,-0.0062,0.0009,-0.0055,-0.0027,-0.0003,0.0034,0.006,-0.0061,0.004
Crimean_Tatar_Coast2_K13_sim,0.1122,0.1231,-0.0066,-0.0209,0.0065,-0.0085,0.0004,0.0019,-0.0134,0.007,-0.0024,0.0014,-0.0083,0.0003,-0.0083,-0.0069,0.0031,-0.0015,0.0022,0.0001,-0.0066,-0.0008,0.0024,-0.0014,-0.0051
Crimean_Karaite1_K13_sim,0.1095,0.1223,-0.0247,-0.0459,-0.0125,-0.0108,0.0036,-0.004,-0.0108,0.0055,-0.0004,0.0003,0.0044,-0.0008,-0.0087,0.0079,0.0064,0.0009,-0.0004,-0.0026,0.0001,0,-0.0009,-0.0013,-0.0006

Averages:

Crimean_Tatar_Steppe_K13_sim_Avg,0.090148,-0.057885,0.03712,0.00772,-0.014529,-0.004181,0.005121,0.00659,-0.00507,-0.00837,-0.004661,-0.00074,0.003719,-0.01586,-0.00541,-0.00037,0.002679,-0.00065,-0.00498,-0.00189,-0.000381,0.00149,-0.00156,-0.00018,-0.00072
Crimean_Tatar_Mountain_K13_sim_Avg,0.10185,0.0606, 0.00695,-0.0112,-0.00585,-0.00325,0.00405,0.00255,-0.01175,-0.00635,-0.00225,0.0006,-0.0021,-0.0029,-0.00185,-0.0049,-0.0052,0.00035,-0.0042,-0.00135,0.0046,0.0038,0.00045,-0.0014,0.00005
Crimean_Tatar_Coast_K13_sim_Avg,0.113,0.1288,-0.0053,-0.0194,0.00165,-0.00565,-0.0002,-0.0013,-0.01165,0.0043,0.0015,0.0008,-0.0073,0.00275,-0.0079,-0.00675,-0.00155,-0.0003,-0.00165,-0.0013,-0.00345,0.0013,0.0042,-0.00375,-0.00055

Ajeje Brazorf
04-23-2022, 01:39 PM
In any case, Levant N present in KER1 and in Azov Greeks could come from Ancient Greeks who lived in Greece - not necessarily from Pontic Greeks.

KER_1 in addition to having more Middle_East scores 0% Iran_N, which seems mediated directly from a Bedouin or Saudi-like source. The coordinates show this but in reality it will have been very different. Low sample coverage is probably to blame.

https://i.imgur.com/DVSQB8V.png

Gentica277282
04-23-2022, 02:16 PM
KER_1 in addition to having more Middle_East scores 0% Iran_N, which seems mediated directly from a Bedouin or Saudi-like source. The coordinates show this but in reality it will have been very different. Low sample coverage is probably to blame.

https://i.imgur.com/DVSQB8V.png

What is the Middle Eastern component in the calculator

Ajeje Brazorf
04-23-2022, 02:18 PM
What is the Middle Eastern component in the calculator


Yemenite_Mahra:Y312,0.061464,0.133034,-0.065996,-0.128555,-0.006155,-0.054663,-0.015981,-0.020307,0.065857,-0.005285,0.017213,-0.027875,0.072844,0.008945,0.015472,0.037258,-0.012126,0.003041,-0.005279,0.026888,0.012353,0.022876,-0.008997,0,-0.006945

Gentica277282
04-23-2022, 02:43 PM
Yemenite_Mahra:Y312,0.061464,0.133034,-0.065996,-0.128555,-0.006155,-0.054663,-0.015981,-0.020307,0.065857,-0.005285,0.017213,-0.027875,0.072844,0.008945,0.015472,0.037258,-0.012126,0.003041,-0.005279,0.026888,0.012353,0.022876,-0.008997,0,-0.006945

Mahra will absorb most of the Iranian Neolithic component which is why he shows none

Gentica277282
04-23-2022, 02:59 PM
Simulated:

Crimean_Tatar_Steppe1_K13_sim,0.0942,-0.0268,0.0327,0.0066,-0.0093,0.0002,0.0007,0.0034,-0.0082,-0.01,-0.0082,0,0.0016,-0.0164,-0.0035,-0.0019,0.0008,-0.0011,-0.0064,-0.0007,-0.0019,0.0004,-0.0023,-0.0012,-0.0012
Crimean_Tatar_Steppe2_K13_sim,0.0897,-0.0651,0.0482,0.0126,-0.0174,-0.0104,0.0057,0.0089,-0.0013,-0.0088,0.0055,-0.0011,0.0057,-0.0206,-0.0097,-0.0021,0.0034,-0.0004,-0.0046,-0.0016,0.0011,0.0021,0.0002,0,-0.0014
Crimean_Tatar_Steppe3_K13_sim,0.0938,-0.0468,0.0414,0.0113,-0.0041,-0.0012,0.0042,0.0063,-0.0073,-0.0105,-0.0026,-0.0006,0.0043,-0.0173,-0.0075,-0.0021,0.0045,-0.0015,-0.0066,-0.0008,0.0002,-0.001,-0.0036,0.0012,-0.0032
Crimean_Tatar_Steppe4_K13_sim,0.0881,-0.0904,0.04,0.0085,-0.0158,-0.0053,0.007,0.0071,-0.0014,-0.0039,-0.007,0.0007,0.0018,-0.0158,-0.0006,0.0049,0.0059,0.0009,-0.0037,-0.0025,-0.0036,0.0035,-0.0013,-0.0013,-0.003
Crimean_Tatar_Steppe5_K13_sim,0.0844,-0.0839,0.0332,0.0031,-0.0185,-0.0066,0.0068,0.0074,-0.0052,-0.009,0.0012,-0.0002,0.0018,-0.0166,-0.007,-0.0013,0.0025,-0.0002,-0.0042,-0.0025,0.0029,0.0043,0.003,-0.0011,0.0013
Crimean_Tatar_Steppe7_K13_sim,0.0899,-0.0436,0.0267,0.009,-0.017,-0.0004,0.0043,0.0049,-0.0072,-0.0074,-0.0089,-0.0017,0.004,-0.0136,-0.0042,0.0003,0.0006,-0.0007,-0.0048,-0.0015,-0.0007,-0.0003,-0.0024,0.0001,-0.0001
Crimean_Tatar_Steppe8_K13_sim,0.0917,-0.0558,0.0383,0.013,-0.0171,-0.0011,0.0043,0.0068,-0.0088,-0.0127,-0.0071,-0.0019,0.0062,-0.0158,-0.0062,0.001,0.0059,-0.0013,-0.0066,0.0004,-0.0018,0,-0.0029,0.0035,-0.0003
Crimean_Tatar_Steppe9_K13_sim,0.0944,-0.0164,0.0317,0.0039,-0.0099,-0.0044,0.004,0.0052,-0.0071,-0.0084,-0.0067,-0.0005,0.0027,-0.0149,-0.0067,-0.0001,0.0048,-0.0011,-0.0063,-0.0003,0.0015,0.0006,-0.0031,0.0005,-0.0004
Crimean_Tatar_Steppe10_K13_sim,0.0871,-0.0768,0.0349,0.0062,-0.0169,-0.0027,0.0071,0.0078,-0.004,-0.0085,-0.0083,-0.0022,0.0064,-0.0099,-0.003,-0.0028,-0.006,-0.0018,-0.0029,-0.0065,-0.0023,0.0008,-0.0034,-0.0029,0.0022
Crimean_Tatar_Steppe11_K13_sim,0.0882,-0.0733,0.0441,0.003,-0.0193,-0.0099,0.0071,0.0081,-0.0002,-0.0045,-0.0045,0.0001,0.0027,-0.0177,-0.0057,0.0004,0.0044,0.0007,-0.0037,-0.0029,0.0008,0.0045,0.0002,-0.0006,-0.0011
Crimean_Tatar_Mountain1_K13_sim,0.1022,0.0842,-0.0039,-0.0212,-0.0001,-0.0022,0.0033,0.0031,-0.0133,-0.0012,-0.0057,0.0015,-0.0027,0.0038,0,-0.0084,-0.0112,0.0014,-0.0028,-0.0027,0.0056,0.0016,0.0008,-0.0008,0.0009
Crimean_Tatar_Mountain2_K13_sim,0.1015,0.037,0.017 8,-0.0012,-0.0116,-0.0043,0.0048,0.002,-0.0102,-0.0115,0.0012,-0.0003,-0.0015,-0.0096,-0.0037,-0.0014,0.0008,-0.0007,-0.0056,0,0.0036,0.006,0.0001,-0.002,-0.0008
Crimean_Tatar_Coast1_K13_sim,0.1138,0.1345,-0.004,-0.0179,-0.0032,-0.0028,-0.0008,-0.0045,-0.0099,0.0016,0.0054,0.0002,-0.0063,0.0052,-0.0075,-0.0066,-0.0062,0.0009,-0.0055,-0.0027,-0.0003,0.0034,0.006,-0.0061,0.004
Crimean_Tatar_Coast2_K13_sim,0.1122,0.1231,-0.0066,-0.0209,0.0065,-0.0085,0.0004,0.0019,-0.0134,0.007,-0.0024,0.0014,-0.0083,0.0003,-0.0083,-0.0069,0.0031,-0.0015,0.0022,0.0001,-0.0066,-0.0008,0.0024,-0.0014,-0.0051
Crimean_Karaite1_K13_sim,0.1095,0.1223,-0.0247,-0.0459,-0.0125,-0.0108,0.0036,-0.004,-0.0108,0.0055,-0.0004,0.0003,0.0044,-0.0008,-0.0087,0.0079,0.0064,0.0009,-0.0004,-0.0026,0.0001,0,-0.0009,-0.0013,-0.0006

Averages:

Crimean_Tatar_Steppe_K13_sim_Avg,0.090148,-0.057885,0.03712,0.00772,-0.014529,-0.004181,0.005121,0.00659,-0.00507,-0.00837,-0.004661,-0.00074,0.003719,-0.01586,-0.00541,-0.00037,0.002679,-0.00065,-0.00498,-0.00189,-0.000381,0.00149,-0.00156,-0.00018,-0.00072
Crimean_Tatar_Mountain_K13_sim_Avg,0.10185,0.0606, 0.00695,-0.0112,-0.00585,-0.00325,0.00405,0.00255,-0.01175,-0.00635,-0.00225,0.0006,-0.0021,-0.0029,-0.00185,-0.0049,-0.0052,0.00035,-0.0042,-0.00135,0.0046,0.0038,0.00045,-0.0014,0.00005
Crimean_Tatar_Coast_K13_sim_Avg,0.113,0.1288,-0.0053,-0.0194,0.00165,-0.00565,-0.0002,-0.0013,-0.01165,0.0043,0.0015,0.0008,-0.0073,0.00275,-0.0079,-0.00675,-0.00155,-0.0003,-0.00165,-0.0013,-0.00345,0.0013,0.0042,-0.00375,-0.00055


Target: Crimean_Karaite1_K13_sim
Distance: 2.0883% / 0.02088323
47.0 Early_European_Farmer
19.0 Steppe_Pastoralist
17.6 Iran_Neolithic
7.8 Levant_Natufian
6.2 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
2.4 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

Target: Crimean_Tatar_Coast2_K13_sim
Distance: 1.3055% / 0.01305493
51.2 Early_European_Farmer
29.6 Steppe_Pastoralist
9.6 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
5.2 Iran_Neolithic
2.6 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
1.6 Levant_Natufian
0.2 Iberomaurusian

Target: Crimean_Tatar_Coast1_K13_sim
Distance: 1.5713% / 0.01571344
45.6 Early_European_Farmer
26.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
10.4 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
7.8 Iran_Neolithic
6.0 Levant_Natufian
4.0 Eastern_Hunter-Gatherer

Target: Crimean_Tatar_Mountain2_K13_sim
Distance: 1.4162% / 0.01416247
30.2 Early_European_Farmer
26.6 Steppe_Pastoralist
15.0 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
11.0 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
8.4 Eastern_Hunter-Gatherer
5.6 Levant_Natufian
3.2 Iran_Neolithic

Target: Crimean_Tatar_Mountain1_K13_sim
Distance: 1.7626% / 0.01762577
37.8 Early_European_Farmer
30.0 Steppe_Pastoralist
8.6 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
8.4 Iran_Neolithic
8.2 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
6.2 Levant_Natufian
0.8 Western_Hunter-Gatherer

Target: Crimean_Tatar_Steppe11_K13_sim
Distance: 2.2544% / 0.02254442
33.6 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
27.4 Steppe_Pastoralist
23.6 Early_European_Farmer
8.6 Eastern_Hunter-Gatherer
3.0 Iran_Neolithic
2.4 Levant_Natufian
1.2 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
0.2 Iberomaurusian

Target: Crimean_Tatar_Steppe10_K13_sim
Distance: 1.9467% / 0.01946705
33.6 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
27.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
20.6 Early_European_Farmer
9.2 Eastern_Hunter-Gatherer
7.0 Iran_Neolithic
2.2 Levant_Natufian
0.2 Iberomaurusian

Target: Crimean_Tatar_Steppe9_K13_sim
Distance: 1.5489% / 0.01548925
28.4 Steppe_Pastoralist
28.2 Early_European_Farmer
24.0 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
8.2 Eastern_Hunter-Gatherer
5.6 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
2.8 Iran_Neolithic
2.0 Levant_Natufian
0.6 Iberomaurusian
0.2 Scandinavian_Hunter-Gatherer

Target: Crimean_Tatar_Steppe8_K13_sim
Distance: 1.8880% / 0.01888046
34.4 Steppe_Pastoralist
30.0 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
21.4 Early_European_Farmer
7.0 Eastern_Hunter-Gatherer
3.0 Iran_Neolithic
2.0 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
1.8 Levant_Natufian
0.4 Iberomaurusian

Target: Crimean_Tatar_Steppe7_K13_sim
Distance: 1.5135% / 0.01513476
29.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
27.8 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
23.6 Early_European_Farmer
7.8 Eastern_Hunter-Gatherer
7.4 Iran_Neolithic
2.0 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
1.4 Levant_Natufian
0.8 Iberomaurusian

Target: Crimean_Tatar_Steppe5_K13_sim
Distance: 2.5547% / 0.02554685
34.6 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
25.6 Steppe_Pastoralist
20.2 Early_European_Farmer
8.6 Eastern_Hunter-Gatherer
5.0 Iran_Neolithic
3.0 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
2.6 Levant_Natufian
0.4 Iberomaurusian

Target: Crimean_Tatar_Steppe4_K13_sim
Distance: 1.7621% / 0.01762092
36.0 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
29.0 Steppe_Pastoralist
21.2 Early_European_Farmer
7.8 Eastern_Hunter-Gatherer
4.2 Iran_Neolithic
1.6 Levant_Natufian
0.2 Scandinavian_Hunter-Gatherer

Target: Crimean_Tatar_Steppe3_K13_sim
Distance: 1.9824% / 0.01982423
33.8 Steppe_Pastoralist
28.8 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
24.2 Early_European_Farmer
6.4 Eastern_Hunter-Gatherer
3.2 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
2.0 Scandinavian_Hunter-Gatherer
0.8 Iberomaurusian
0.8 Levant_Natufian

Target: Crimean_Tatar_Steppe2_K13_sim
Distance: 2.8127% / 0.02812700
31.2 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
24.0 Early_European_Farmer
23.4 Steppe_Pastoralist
15.2 Eastern_Hunter-Gatherer
3.4 Iran_Neolithic
1.6 Levant_Natufian
0.8 Iberomaurusian
0.4 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer

Target: Crimean_Tatar_Steppe1_K13_sim
Distance: 1.4595% / 0.01459521
33.0 Steppe_Pastoralist
25.6 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
25.2 Early_European_Farmer
6.0 Eastern_Hunter-Gatherer
4.4 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
2.4 Iran_Neolithic
1.8 Levant_Natufian
1.0 Iberomaurusian
0.6 Scandinavian_Hunter-Gatherer
On Neolithic model

Avraam Kyriakidis
04-23-2022, 03:04 PM
On Neolithic model

In your Neolithic Model you will need to add this as well:

Levant_Neolithic_Farmer_Levant_PPNB,0.0725625,0.16 50235,-0.0309238,-0.1380835,0.0323138,-0.062541,-0.012103,-0.0141338,0.0735775,0.0367207,0.0194055,-0.0170098,0.036459,-0.000241,-0.021342,0.0067288,0.0089638,-0.0013935,-0.0054052,0.0192277,-0.0037435,0.007852,-0.0014175,-0.0062658,-0.0047002

Gentica277282
04-23-2022, 03:06 PM
In your Neolithic Model you will need to add this as well:

Levant_Neolithic_Farmer_Levant_PPNB,0.0725625,0.16 50235,-0.0309238,-0.1380835,0.0323138,-0.062541,-0.012103,-0.0141338,0.0735775,0.0367207,0.0194055,-0.0170098,0.036459,-0.000241,-0.021342,0.0067288,0.0089638,-0.0013935,-0.0054052,0.0192277,-0.0037435,0.007852,-0.0014175,-0.0062658,-0.0047002

I only use natufian, ppnb is eef+natufian. Natufian better represents Middle Eastern ancestry but I’ll try it with that if you like

Avraam Kyriakidis
04-23-2022, 03:09 PM
I only use natufian, ppnb is eef+natufian. Natufian better represents Middle Eastern ancestry but I’ll try it with that if you like

Yemenite Mahra have both PPNB and Natufian HG like mix.Gulf Arabs are not exactly proper Natufians.They have levantine/semite mix(PPNB/Iran N).

Target: Yemenite_Mahra:Y312
Distance: 5.8838% / 0.05883752
54.4 Levant_Natufian_Hunter-Gatherer_Levant_Natufian
31.0 Levant_Neolithic_Farmer_Levant_PPNB
14.6 Iran_Neolithic_Farmer_IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

Gentica277282
04-23-2022, 03:18 PM
Yemenite Mahra have both PPNB and Natufian HG like mix.Gulf Arabs are not exactly proper Natufians.They have levantine/semite mix(PPNB/Iran N).

Target: Yemenite_Mahra:Y312
Distance: 5.8838% / 0.05883752
54.4 Levant_Natufian_Hunter-Gatherer_Levant_Natufian
31.0 Levant_Neolithic_Farmer_Levant_PPNB
14.6 Iran_Neolithic_Farmer_IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

The distances are too high, Arabs don’t have a great fit with Neolithic samples in general. It gives them the next closest fit their have been papers explaining about Arabs having a signal of a native component amongst them yet to be found. Natufian works fine for all populations excluding of course Arabs

They have a better fit with Levant Jordan eba

Avraam Kyriakidis
04-23-2022, 03:25 PM
The distances are too high, Arabs don’t have a great fit with Neolithic samples in general. It gives them the next closest fit their have been papers explaining about Arabs having a signal of a native component amongst them yet to be found. Natufian works fine for all populations excluding of course Arabs

They have a better with Levant Jordan eba

Agree with what you saying.There are many components in west asia that are still undiscovered and not only.Even in North Africa there is emptiness and we still don't know excatly what ANA is.But,keep in mind that with neolithic models most of the modern pops rarely doing good fits/distances.

Gulfs Arabs have something native in their lands(similar to Natufian) and the rest is Levantine/Semite and its obvious also from their yDNA.SSA admix and so on is def a medieval/slave trade issue!!!

chum
04-23-2022, 03:34 PM
The distances are too high, Arabs don’t have a great fit with Neolithic samples in general. It gives them the next closest fit their have been papers explaining about Arabs having a signal of a native component amongst them yet to be found. Natufian works fine for all populations excluding of course Arabs

They have a better fit with Levant Jordan eba

I'm pretty sure that Jordan EBA actually has ancestry from Arabia, this is one of the Jordan EBA samples:


Distance to: Levant_JOR_EBA:I1706
0.03739558 SaudiA
0.04032510 Yemenite_Amran
0.04326297 Yemenite_Jew
0.04504630 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
0.04593691 Saudi
0.04613738 Yemenite_Ma'rib
0.04707084 Yemenite_Al_Bayda
0.04814750 BedouinB
0.04925846 Yemenite_Dhamar
0.04928048 Yemenite_Mahra
0.05049170 EmiratiA
0.06223096 EmiratiB
0.06437268 SaudiB
0.06670531 Samaritan
0.07048832 Palestinian
0.07203055 BedouinA
0.07357427 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.07406852 Jordanian
0.07953383 Lebanese_Christian
0.08826141 Lebanese_Druze
0.08875973 Lebanese_Muslim
0.08902419 Druze
0.08923566 Karaite_Egypt
0.09074143 Tunisian_Jew
0.09140355 Libyan_Jew

Tomenable
04-23-2022, 04:07 PM
As for Pontic Greeks they are a mix of Colchian tribes who were probably Kartvelian speakers. Genetically like modern Laz and Western Georgians(Mengrel/Imeretians). So what you said about the Laz is wrong. Laz its a Colchian tribe that arrived in Pontus during medieval times to escape from Arabs. Laz are not identical to Pontics, they are not even identical to Western Georgians. They are between Mengrels/Imeretians and East Pontics when It comes to autosomal dna.While Pontics are a mix of west Georgians(Mengrel like) and the rest being something Cappadocian Greek/Armenian like but without steppe. Dunno what population/tribe is resposible for this mix. Could be Hurro-urartians or kaskians like you mention. We need Iron Age Anatolian samples.

I thought that the Laz are descended from Colchians - I should have said that Pontic Greeks are largely Hellenized Colchians (and Hellenized descendants of Kaskians too).

Avraam Kyriakidis
04-23-2022, 04:52 PM
I thought that the Laz are descended from Colchians - I should have said that Pontic Greeks are largely Hellenized Colchians (and Hellenized descendants of Kaskians too).

Laz are actually Mingrelians.They speak pretty much the same language.Or basically they used to speak since modern Laz it is very influenced from Ottomans and Turkish people.They migrated to Pontus to survive from Arabs:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbasid_Caliphate.

Similar case with Hemsheni Armenians who are also Armenicized Pontic people.Both the Laz and Hemsheni Armenians have mixed with Pontic like people in their arrival in Pontus.Thus,they become more anatolian/levantine admixed.

Pontus was probably a mix of Colchian/Kartvelian and anatolian bronze/iron age people.

Yeah,you can say that half of the Pontic Greek autosomal is Colchian/Kartvelian(like modern Mengrels/Imereti Georgians).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colchian_culture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colchis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_Colchian_tribes

But the rest of the autosomal is more complicated.Its leaning towards Cappadocian Greeks/Armenians but without steppe admixture.Genoplot models Pontic Greeks as half Mengrel/Imereti Georgians and the rest Cappadocian Greek/Armenian.

Take a look to the Laz samples we have.As you can see they are less Anatolia N,more CHG and pretty much very low Iran N.There are diffrences with Pontics who are more anatolia N,more Levant PPNB,also more Iran N and less CHG compared to them.

49308


Target: Pontic_Average
Distance: 3.0396% / 0.03039634
36.8 Anatolia_Neolithic_Farmer_TUR_Barcin_N
34.0 Caucasus_Hunter-Gatherer_GEO_CHG
16.6 Levant_Neolithic_Farmer_Levant_PPNB
12.6 Iran_Neolithic_Farmer_IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N



Target: Georgian_Megr
Distance: 2.5120% / 0.02511988
61.6 Caucasus_Hunter-Gatherer_GEO_CHG
25.2 Anatolia_Neolithic_Farmer_TUR_Barcin_N
12.0 Levant_Neolithic_Farmer_Levant_PPNB
1.2 Pontic_Steppe_Yamnaya_Pastoralist_Yamnaya_RUS_Sama ra



Target: Georgian_Laz
Distance: 2.7760% / 0.02775990
45.6 Caucasus_Hunter-Gatherer_GEO_CHG
32.4 Anatolia_Neolithic_Farmer_TUR_Barcin_N
13.8 Levant_Neolithic_Farmer_Levant_PPNB
7.8 Iran_Neolithic_Farmer_IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.4 Pontic_Steppe_Yamnaya_Pastoralist_Yamnaya_RUS_Sama ra


And ofc Pontics are closer to Armenians than any Kartvelian/Georgian speaking group.


Distance to: Pontic_Average
0.01118819 Greek_Trabzon
0.01256125 Turkish_Trabzon
0.02040300 Armenian_Gesaria
0.02120329 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.02294172 Armenian_Erzurum
0.02363329 Armenian_Urfa
0.02501230 Armenian_Aintab
0.02811540 Georgian_Laz
0.02872400 Armenian_Syunik
0.02964965 Georgian_Meskheti
0.03104153 Greek_Cappadocia
0.03365361 Armenian_Gharadagh
0.03509798 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.03647736 Armenian_Van
0.03679857 Assyrian
0.03744519 Armenian_Diyarbekir
0.03746809 Ahiska
0.03774437 Georgian_Jew
0.03950770 Georgian_Kakh
0.03968327 Armenian_Ashtarak
0.04106443 Udi
0.04237038 Georgian_Kart
0.04471754 Mountain_Jew_o
0.04530456 Georgian_Ajar
0.04683740 Mountain_Jew



Distance to: Georgian_Laz
0.01553481 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.01802174 Ahiska
0.01974200 Georgian_Kakh
0.02014143 Georgian_Ajar
0.02188304 Greek_Trabzon
0.02463538 Georgian_Kart
0.02651200 Turkish_Trabzon
0.02908236 Georgian_Imer
0.03548731 Georgian_Meskheti
0.03603272 Georgian_Megr
0.03652656 Armenian_Gharadagh
0.03687669 Armenian_Syunik
0.03842010 Armenian_Gesaria
0.03845610 Udi
0.03915409 Armenian_Erzurum
0.04110066 Armenian_Van
0.04224900 Abkhasian
0.04241904 Armenian_Ashtarak
0.04361081 Armenian_Aintab
0.04491974 Armenian_Urfa
0.04879903 Georgian_Svan
0.04882263 Armenian_Diyarbekir
0.04911880 Georgian_Tush
0.04950901 Georgian_Khevs
0.05036427 Turkish_East


Distance to: Georgian_Megr
0.01194497 Georgian_Imer
0.01870848 Georgian_Svan
0.02124508 Abkhasian
0.02193210 Georgian_Ajar
0.03110720 Ahiska
0.03155299 Georgian_Kart
0.03601639 Georgian_Kakh
0.03603272 Georgian_Laz
0.04311545 Georgian_Tush
0.04331196 Georgian_Khevs
0.04477254 Ossetian
0.04785937 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.05213673 Adygei
0.05470477 Greek_Trabzon
0.05838216 Udi
0.05930402 North_Ossetian
0.05989153 Ingushian
0.06039926 Turkish_Trabzon
0.06288910 Armenian_Gharadagh
0.06437717 Armenian_Syunik
0.06563510 Chechen
0.06621346 Balkar
0.06646866 Georgian_Meskheti
0.06864383 Turkish_East
0.06945563 Karachay


What we can say for sure it is that Colchians were like modern Mingrelian Georgians.Who are the most unadmixed Western Georgian people today.That's how the Laz were like before they migrate to Pontus(northeast anatolia) and mix with 'Pontic' like people.While Colchians in Pontus were admixed with anatolians and maybe hurro-urartian groups(hence the cappadocian/armenian like genetics).Keep in mind that most of the samples we got from Pontic Greeks today are mostly from the eastern parts(Trabzon,Giresun,Gumushane etc).I have 5 samples from western Pontics and they coming more Cappadocian Greek/Armenian like in their autosomal but without the steppe input.

Michalis Moriopoulos
04-23-2022, 05:31 PM
Ancient Greeks did not had Levant N. Dont confuse Ancient Greeks with Modern Greeks. Levant N in the Greek world is a Hellenistic/Roman issue. You can check Bronze Age and Classical Greeks(Lazaridis et Al).

Sorry if this objection sounds pedantic (I don't think it is personally), but it's a pet peeve of mine: Hellenistic and Roman Greeks are ancient Greeks. Any Greek who lived before medieval times qualifies as ancient because he/she was living in antiquity. The only modern Greek profile that we can be pretty sure does not have an ancient analogue is the conventional mainland Balkan Greek profile. Cypriot and Pontic profiles are likely ancient, possibly even Iron Age in vintage. Cappadocian Greeks didn't exist until Hellenistic period but that's still antiquity.

As far as Levant N goes, Natufian ancestry (possibly Levant Neo-mediated) does assert itself in many basic components tests I've run on the BA and classical set, but it's admittedly small and would need to be backed up with formal methods to be sure it's real.

Also, we need a better sampling of the classical world to be sure there is not structure at the margins of the Aegean classical population. It's entirely possible that ancient Dodecanese and SW Anatolian Greeks will already be more Anatolian BA-shifted before the Hellenistic period. Maybe even Phoenician ancestry in some cases. We'll see. Overall though it's obvious that most Greeks of the period looked more or less like Empuries... I call it Proto-East Med.

Tomenable
04-23-2022, 05:35 PM
BTW could these two ancient DNA populations be related to any known (attested) historical ethnic groups / peoples?:


AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN,0.097319,0.1457285,-0.068636,-0.0702525,-0.0333905,-0.021893,0.0094005,-0.0141915,-0.0224975,0.0027335,0.001705,0.0050205,-0.014197,0.0016515,-0.0084145,-0.0110045,0.008866,0.0022805,0.004085,-0.0011255,0.0061145,0.004946,-0.0049915,-0.006326,0.001916
Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps,0.1013025,0.133034,-0.07071,-0.043605,-0.0498555,-0.0092035,0.008108,-0.011653,-0.066368,-0.01631,0.0030855,0.011015,-0.019846,0.005849,0.0042075,-0.0102095,-0.0001305,-0.003927,-0.001697,0.0032515,0.003494,-0.000247,-0.0036975,-0.0090975,-0.0030535

Avraam Kyriakidis
04-23-2022, 05:56 PM
Sorry if this objection sounds pedantic (I don't think it is personally), but it's a pet peeve of mine: Hellenistic and Roman Greeks are ancient Greeks. Any Greek who lived before medieval times qualifies as ancient because he/she was living in antiquity. The only modern Greek profile that we can be pretty sure does not have an ancient analogue is the conventional mainland Balkan Greek profile. Cypriot and Pontic profiles are likely ancient, possibly even Iron Age in vintage. Cappadocian Greeks didn't exist until Hellenistic period but that's still antiquity.

As far as Levant N goes, Natufian ancestry (possibly Levant Neo-mediated) does assert itself in many basic components tests I've run on the BA and classical set, but it's admittedly small and would need to be backed up with formal methods to be sure it's real.

Also, we need a better sampling of the classical world to be sure there is not structure at the margins of the Aegean classical population. It's entirely possible that ancient Dodecanese and SW Anatolian Greeks will already be more Anatolian BA-shifted before the Hellenistic period. Maybe even Phoenician ancestry in some cases. We'll see. Overall though it's obvious that most Greeks of the period looked more or less like Empuries... I call it Proto-East Med.

I think we need samples from Iron Age period.The samples from Isparta are okay.You don't see crazy amounts of MENA input.But as you go deeper in Cappadocia(Kalehoyuk,Ovaoren and Melid) then MENA input is indeed increasing.I think it is a combination of all.First, with Ancient Greeks coming in contact with anatolians and after that with the hellenization of the Levant plus the Imperial Roman times and the demographic changes.


Target: TUR_Isparta_EBA
Distance: 2.8307% / 0.02830739
61.0 Anatolia_Neolithic_Farmer_TUR_Barcin_N
16.8 Caucasus_Hunter-Gatherer_GEO_CHG
13.6 Iran_Neolithic_Farmer_IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
8.6 Levant_Neolithic_Farmer_Levant_PPNB


Target: TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
Distance: 2.6906% / 0.02690621
55.0 Anatolia_Neolithic_Farmer_TUR_Barcin_N
17.2 Caucasus_Hunter-Gatherer_GEO_CHG
14.2 Iran_Neolithic_Farmer_IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
13.6 Levant_Neolithic_Farmer_Levant_PPNB


Target: TUR_Ovaoren_EBA
Distance: 2.3221% / 0.02322090
50.2 Anatolia_Neolithic_Farmer_TUR_Barcin_N
17.8 Levant_Neolithic_Farmer_Levant_PPNB
17.4 Caucasus_Hunter-Gatherer_GEO_CHG
14.6 Iran_Neolithic_Farmer_IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N



Target: TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
Distance: 3.5359% / 0.03535916
33.8 Anatolia_Neolithic_Farmer_TUR_Barcin_N
29.2 Levant_Neolithic_Farmer_Levant_PPNB
22.8 Caucasus_Hunter-Gatherer_GEO_CHG
14.2 Iran_Neolithic_Farmer_IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N


Target: TUR_Titris_Hoyuk_EBA
Distance: 5.5473% / 0.05547312
37.4 Anatolia_Neolithic_Farmer_TUR_Barcin_N
24.4 Levant_Neolithic_Farmer_Levant_PPNB
19.6 Caucasus_Hunter-Gatherer_GEO_CHG
18.6 Iran_Neolithic_Farmer_IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

Avraam Kyriakidis
04-23-2022, 05:57 PM
BTW could these two ancient DNA populations be related to any known (attested) historical ethnic groups / peoples?:


AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN,0.097319,0.1457285,-0.068636,-0.0702525,-0.0333905,-0.021893,0.0094005,-0.0141915,-0.0224975,0.0027335,0.001705,0.0050205,-0.014197,0.0016515,-0.0084145,-0.0110045,0.008866,0.0022805,0.004085,-0.0011255,0.0061145,0.004946,-0.0049915,-0.006326,0.001916
Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps,0.1013025,0.133034,-0.07071,-0.043605,-0.0498555,-0.0092035,0.008108,-0.011653,-0.066368,-0.01631,0.0030855,0.011015,-0.019846,0.005849,0.0042075,-0.0102095,-0.0001305,-0.003927,-0.001697,0.0032515,0.003494,-0.000247,-0.0036975,-0.0090975,-0.0030535

Hurro-Urartians,Udi(Caucasian Albanians),Caspians.

Gentica277282
04-23-2022, 06:32 PM
Sorry if this objection sounds pedantic (I don't think it is personally), but it's a pet peeve of mine: Hellenistic and Roman Greeks are ancient Greeks. Any Greek who lived before medieval times qualifies as ancient because he/she was living in antiquity. The only modern Greek profile that we can be pretty sure does not have an ancient analogue is the conventional mainland Balkan Greek profile. Cypriot and Pontic profiles are likely ancient, possibly even Iron Age in vintage. Cappadocian Greeks didn't exist until Hellenistic period but that's still antiquity.

As far as Levant N goes, Natufian ancestry (possibly Levant Neo-mediated) does assert itself in many basic components tests I've run on the BA and classical set, but it's admittedly small and would need to be backed up with formal methods to be sure it's real.

Also, we need a better sampling of the classical world to be sure there is not structure at the margins of the Aegean classical population. It's entirely possible that ancient Dodecanese and SW Anatolian Greeks will already be more Anatolian BA-shifted before the Hellenistic period. Maybe even Phoenician ancestry in some cases. We'll see. Overall though it's obvious that most Greeks of the period looked more or less like Empuries... I call it Proto-East Med.

What does ba stand for Bronze Age?

Ajeje Brazorf
04-23-2022, 07:03 PM
Mahra will absorb most of the Iranian Neolithic component which is why he shows none

Instead, in my opinion, it's an oddity that's just inherent in the sample itself. Even when you remove a Middle Eastern component, it will still have little Iran_N, which is also why in a simple model BedouinB comes out.

https://i.imgur.com/5XWsHOl.png


Target: Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD
Distance: 2.3475% / 0.02347548 | R3P
50.6 Italian_Apulia
42.2 Ingushian
7.2 BedouinB

Target: Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD
Distance: 2.1252% / 0.02125192 | R4P
49.6 Greek_Thessaly
34.0 Georgian_Svan
12.8 BedouinB
3.6 Khanty

https://i.imgur.com/VVSZaWM.png

Gentica277282
04-23-2022, 07:07 PM
I'm pretty sure that Jordan EBA actually has ancestry from Arabia, this is one of the Jordan EBA samples:


Distance to: Levant_JOR_EBA:I1706
0.03739558 SaudiA
0.04032510 Yemenite_Amran
0.04326297 Yemenite_Jew
0.04504630 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
0.04593691 Saudi
0.04613738 Yemenite_Ma'rib
0.04707084 Yemenite_Al_Bayda
0.04814750 BedouinB
0.04925846 Yemenite_Dhamar
0.04928048 Yemenite_Mahra
0.05049170 EmiratiA
0.06223096 EmiratiB
0.06437268 SaudiB
0.06670531 Samaritan
0.07048832 Palestinian
0.07203055 BedouinA
0.07357427 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.07406852 Jordanian
0.07953383 Lebanese_Christian
0.08826141 Lebanese_Druze
0.08875973 Lebanese_Muslim
0.08902419 Druze
0.08923566 Karaite_Egypt
0.09074143 Tunisian_Jew
0.09140355 Libyan_Jew

Pretty much just with eef admixture

They can be modelled like this

Target: Levant_JOR_EBA:I1730
Distance: 3.8075% / 0.03807465
43.6 Dzudzuana
23.4 Early_European_Farmer
18.8 Iran_Neolithic
7.2 Iberomaurusian
7.0 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer

Target: Levant_JOR_EBA:I1706
Distance: 3.4048% / 0.03404751
46.4 Dzudzuana
27.2 Iran_Neolithic
17.8 Early_European_Farmer
8.6 Iberomaurusian

Target: Levant_JOR_EBA:I1705
Distance: 4.1747% / 0.04174711
43.0 Dzudzuana
24.0 Early_European_Farmer
22.0 Iran_Neolithic
6.6 Iberomaurusian
4.4 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer

Without Dzudzuana
Target: Levant_JOR_EBA:I1730
Distance: 5.0741% / 0.05074104
43.4 Levant_Natufian
37.4 Early_European_Farmer
19.2 Iran_Neolithic

Target: Levant_JOR_EBA:I1706
Distance: 4.7448% / 0.04744805
50.6 Levant_Natufian
28.8 Early_European_Farmer
20.6 Iran_Neolithic

Target: Levant_JOR_EBA:I1705
Distance: 5.4557% / 0.05455665
43.6 Levant_Natufian
37.0 Early_European_Farmer
19.4 Iran_Neolithic

Gentica277282
04-23-2022, 07:09 PM
Instead, in my opinion, it's an oddity that's just inherent in the sample itself. Even when you remove a Middle Eastern component, it will still have little Iran_N, which is also why in a simple model BedouinB comes out.

https://i.imgur.com/5XWsHOl.png


Target: Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD
Distance: 2.3475% / 0.02347548 | R3P
50.6 Italian_Apulia
42.2 Ingushian
7.2 BedouinB

Target: Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD
Distance: 2.1252% / 0.02125192 | R4P
49.6 Greek_Thessaly
34.0 Georgian_Svan
12.8 BedouinB
3.6 Khanty

https://i.imgur.com/VVSZaWM.png

Do you mind posting the sample I’ll run some models with them

Dorian9
04-23-2022, 08:18 PM
Btw, i can give you if you want some western Pontic results from Ordu/Kotyora.

Can you post the k13 for West Pontics?

Avraam Kyriakidis
04-23-2022, 09:23 PM
Can you post the k13 for West Pontics?

MV8211267
UG2220165

Kotyora1_scaled,0.106994,0.140143,-0.056945,-0.069445,-0.026466,-0.02008,0.001645,-0.002538,-0.032724,0.01221,0.006333,0.003597,-0.006987,0.006331,-0.011265,-0.006099,0.004172,0.001647,-0.002891,-0.002876,0.000374,0.006925,0.00493,-0.006266,0.00479

Kotyora2_scaled,0.108132,0.140143,-0.058077,-0.070091,-0.022466,-0.022311,0.00752,0.000692,-0.02986,0.001458,0.005359,0.005095,-0.009366,0.006606,-0.004072,-0.003315,-0.000652,0.00152,-0.000754,-0.002501,0.004243,-0.000866,-0.000863,-0.009158,0.00012

Only for these samples i have the permission to share.

Ajeje Brazorf
04-24-2022, 12:38 AM
Do you mind posting the sample I’ll run some models with them


Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD:KER_1,0.104717,0.125926,-0.010559,-0.034884,-0.008617,-0.017012,-0.002585,-0.004615,-0.023111,-0.000729,0.005196,-0.003747,-0.006541,0.002615,-0.002036,-0.005834,0.001043,-0.011402,-0.005782,0.004877,0.006239,0.011994,0.005916,0.008 073,-0.004431

Ajeje Brazorf
04-24-2022, 12:40 AM
MV8211267
UG2220165

Kotyora1_scaled,0.106994,0.140143,-0.056945,-0.069445,-0.026466,-0.02008,0.001645,-0.002538,-0.032724,0.01221,0.006333,0.003597,-0.006987,0.006331,-0.011265,-0.006099,0.004172,0.001647,-0.002891,-0.002876,0.000374,0.006925,0.00493,-0.006266,0.00479

Kotyora2_scaled,0.108132,0.140143,-0.058077,-0.070091,-0.022466,-0.022311,0.00752,0.000692,-0.02986,0.001458,0.005359,0.005095,-0.009366,0.006606,-0.004072,-0.003315,-0.000652,0.00152,-0.000754,-0.002501,0.004243,-0.000866,-0.000863,-0.009158,0.00012

Only for these samples i have the permission to share.

Thanks for sharing!


Distance to: Kotyora2_scaled
0.01923828 Armenian_Urfa
0.02075688 Armenian_Erzurum
0.02128878 Armenian_Gesaria
0.02182310 Turkish_Trabzon
0.02265155 Greek_Trabzon
0.02316151 Armenian_Aintab

Distance to: Kotyora1_scaled
0.02144872 Armenian_Urfa
0.02277390 Turkish_Trabzon
0.02447167 Armenian_Gesaria
0.02477827 Armenian_Aintab

Avraam Kyriakidis
04-24-2022, 11:56 AM
Thanks for sharing!


Distance to: Kotyora2_scaled
0.01923828 Armenian_Urfa
0.02075688 Armenian_Erzurum
0.02128878 Armenian_Gesaria
0.02182310 Turkish_Trabzon
0.02265155 Greek_Trabzon
0.02316151 Armenian_Aintab

Distance to: Kotyora1_scaled
0.02144872 Armenian_Urfa
0.02277390 Turkish_Trabzon
0.02447167 Armenian_Gesaria
0.02477827 Armenian_Aintab

NP.

Yeah,these samples are in fact closer to Armenians(even without hitting any steppe admix) rather to the G25 Trabzon average.

Michalis Moriopoulos
04-26-2022, 01:26 AM
We have two samples from the mountain subgroup (Tat) of Crimean Tatars. They are genetically between Steppe (Çöl) Tatars and Coastal Tatars (Yalıboylular who resemble KER_1).

Thanks for sharing these! They are amazing!

Tomenable
05-28-2022, 11:53 AM
Classic Similitude Map for Mariupol Greeks (Grecy z Mariupola):

https://i.imgur.com/uwEr8Vn.png

Tomenable
05-30-2022, 01:06 PM
Global25 coordinates for Mariupol Greeks simulated from K36 data:


Mariupol_Greeks,0.11225851630799999,0.12828092475,-0.011220684387600013,-0.02634159253899974,-0.00441679696379999,-0.006627881657600013,0.004731158925000017,-0.0008515213089998908,-0.017602151691999923,-0.0012573726979999596,0.00201534380436,0.001656363 3469999835,-0.0026682349359999817,0.001961106461999866,-0.009667715935999945,-0.004086977133999897,0.004948985956000188,-0.0000759052719998439,0.001652607061999988,-0.002490055044599996,-0.0034145251779999636,0.0020889189170001446,0.0011 353815249999935,0.0003028019400000692,-0.001556290650999867

Distance to: Mariupol_Greeks
0.03661739 Greek_Crete
0.03772508 Greek_Izmir
0.04000405 Ashkenazi_Russia
0.04012442 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.04016480 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.04292227 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr_o
0.04301077 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.04386625 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.04407621 Italian_Molise
0.04422188 Italian_Basilicata
0.04428375 Greek_Peloponnese
0.04446108 Rumelia_East
0.04484921 Greek_Kos
0.04591704 Italian_Abruzzo
0.04594004 Italian_Apulia
0.04720314 Greek_Macedonia
0.04736909 Italian_Campania
0.04769712 Italian_Calabria
0.04786926 Greek_Dodecanese
0.04851193 Sephardic_Jew_o
0.04857323 Greek_Thessaly
0.04933876 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.04990131 Greek_Laconia
0.05077897 Sicilian_East
0.05078152 Turkish_Kayseri

Ajeje Brazorf
05-30-2022, 01:17 PM
Global25 coordinates for Mariupol Greeks simulated from K36 data:


Mariupol_Greeks,0.11225851630799999,0.12828092475,-0.011220684387600013,-0.02634159253899974,-0.00441679696379999,-0.006627881657600013,0.004731158925000017,-0.0008515213089998908,-0.017602151691999923,-0.0012573726979999596,0.00201534380436,0.001656363 3469999835,-0.0026682349359999817,0.001961106461999866,-0.009667715935999945,-0.004086977133999897,0.004948985956000188,-0.0000759052719998439,0.001652607061999988,-0.002490055044599996,-0.0034145251779999636,0.0020889189170001446,0.0011 353815249999935,0.0003028019400000692,-0.001556290650999867


Target: Mariupol_Greeks
Distance: 0.0093% / 0.00926839 | R2P
64.4 Greek_Izmir
35.6 Kumyk

Target: Mariupol_Greeks
Distance: 0.0047% / 0.00469913 | R3P
50.1 Greek_Central_Macedonia
25.6 Armenian_Gesaria
24.3 Kumyk

https://i.imgur.com/LUkK36D.png

Tomenable
05-30-2022, 01:21 PM
Target: Mariupol_Greeks
Distance: 0.0093% / 0.00926839 | R2P
64.4 Greek_Izmir
35.6 Kumyk

Target: Mariupol_Greeks
Distance: 0.0047% / 0.00469913 | R3P
50.1 Greek_Central_Macedonia
25.6 Armenian_Gesaria
24.3 Kumyk

https://i.imgur.com/LUkK36D.png

^^^
Is Dolmen I2051 sample a good source of his Caucasus-like admixture:

G25:


Dolmen_I2051,0.11059852745700008,0.127190055699000 02,-0.044396789587999995,-0.0440394814750002,-0.035311531555000004,-0.006420907646000002,0.00879578533699999,-0.006903732575999966,-0.057771961960000034,-0.017826188708999907,0.0003178513657199993,0.00924 5571948999956,-0.019454628340000016,0.002373823111000206,0.002487 306409999973,-0.014111567514,0.01155210182099986,-0.001428853341999936,-0.007680035264000018,0.0134927508845,0.01023622357 8999781,0.00041618210300001235,0.00100882436499998 ,-0.002027158261999909,-0.001161164706000306

K36:

Dolmen I2051 Eurogenes K36:

Amerindian 0
Arabian 2.05
Armenian 24.7
Basque 1.76
Central_African 0
Central_Euro 3.23
East_African 0.17
East_Asian 0
East_Balkan 0
East_Central_Asian 0
East_Central_Euro 0
East_Med 0
Eastern_Euro 0
Fennoscandian 0
French 4.64
Iberian 0
Indo-Chinese 0
Italian 0
Malayan 0
Near_Eastern 5.63
North_African 2.6
North_Atlantic 0
North_Caucasian 33.7
North_Sea 0
Northeast_African 0
Oceanian 0
Omotic 0
Pygmy 0
Siberian 0
South_Asian 0
South_Central_Asian 0
South_Chinese 0
Volga-Ural 0
West_African 0
West_Caucasian 21.5
West_Med 0

Ajeje Brazorf
05-30-2022, 01:28 PM
^^^
Is Dolmen I2051 sample a good source of his Caucasus-like admixture:

K36:

That's a very low coverage sample.

Tomenable
05-30-2022, 01:31 PM
That's a very low coverage sample.

But the K36 results don't look noisy, they look OK (see above).

Distances based on G25 (converted from K36):

Distance to: Dolmen_I2051
0.01768715 Ahiska
0.01903989 Georgian_Kart
0.02172812 Abkhasian
0.02175252 Georgian_Kakh
0.02376955 Georgian_Ajar
0.02513824 Georgian_Imer
0.02638513 Georgian_Megr
0.02732833 Georgian_Tush
0.02753576 Georgian_Khevs
0.02787413 Georgian_Laz
0.03183859 Georgian_Svan
0.03674343 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.03933144 Udi
0.04027943 Ossetian
0.04051521 Adygei
0.04264107 Greek_Trabzon
0.04616245 Turkish_Trabzon
0.04700396 Armenian_Syunik
0.04728104 Ingushian
0.04858040 Turkish_East
0.04870296 Georgian_Meskheti
0.05245431 Chechen
0.05246656 North_Ossetian
0.05367599 Armenian_Gesaria
0.05519878 Balkar

Ajeje Brazorf
05-30-2022, 01:48 PM
But the K36 results don't look noisy, they look OK (see above).

This is what the algorithm draws.


Target: Mariupol_Greeks
Distance: 0.0166% / 0.01664683 | R2P
66.9 IND_Roopkund_B:I3404___AD_1821___Coverage_46.23%
33.1 RUS_Maykop_Late:MK5004___BC_3200___Coverage_69.11%

Target: Mariupol_Greeks
Distance: 0.0107% / 0.01070027 | R3P
37.0 RUS_Alan_MA:DA162___AD_650___Coverage_79.89%
32.1 IND_Roopkund_B:I6936___AD_1823___Coverage_62.12%
30.9 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR1548___AD_136___Coverage_61. 42%

Target: Mariupol_Greeks
Distance: 0.0059% / 0.00591367 | R4P
35.4 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR115___AD_100___Coverage_71.0 5%
27.7 RUS_Alan_MA:DA243___AD_900___Coverage_89.63%
22.9 IND_Roopkund_B_o:I6935___AD_1807___Coverage_45.58%
14.0 KAZ_Golden_Horde_Euro:DA29___AD_1400___Coverage_57 .79%

Tomenable
05-30-2022, 01:55 PM
Wow, 14% of DA29 ??? So they do have some Balto-Slavic admixture?

It did not really look like that based on Eurogenes K36 percentages.

Tomenable
05-30-2022, 02:20 PM
I think that the Tauri could be similar to Dolmen_I2051 and that this admixture might be local from Pre-Greek Crimeans:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tauri

That's why I suggested using it in a model.

Billyh
05-30-2022, 03:46 PM
The only modern Greek profile that we can be pretty sure does not have an ancient analogue is the conventional mainland Balkan Greek profile. Cypriot and Pontic profiles are likely ancient, possibly even Iron Age in vintage. Cappadocian Greeks didn't exist until Hellenistic period but that's still antiquity […] Overall though it's obvious that most Greeks of the period looked more or less like Empuries... I call it Proto-East Med.

What about the early Greek Logkas samples?

49806

Also, I don’t see why you think Cypriot/Pontic profile is pre-Hellenistic

Michalis Moriopoulos
05-30-2022, 04:23 PM
What about the early Greek Logkas samples?

I said I believe most Greeks of the classical period are going to look like Empuries. Logkas is from the MBA and we can't even be sure they are even Greeks.


Also, I don’t see why you think Cypriot/Pontic profile is pre-Hellenistic

I said their profiles are likely ancient, which includes the Hellenistic. They might even be older still; there's nothing to rule it out at the moment.

Tomenable
05-30-2022, 05:32 PM
Maybe we should ask Davidski what he thinks about these K36 > G25 conversions, are they more or less reliable?

But I wouldn't be surprised if he designed both tools to be kind of compatible with each other. It does make sense.

Ajeje Brazorf
05-30-2022, 05:35 PM
Maybe we should ask Davidski what he thinks about these K36 > G25 conversions, are they more or less reliable?

But I wouldn't be surprised if he designed both tools to be kind of compatible with each other. It does make sense.

K36 simulated coordinates are closest to the original ones


Distance to: Ajeje_Brazorf_scaled
0.01471649 K36-sim_scaled
0.01700324 K13-sim_scaled
0.02049918 K15-sim_scaled
0.02256583 HW-sim_scaled

K36 simulated coordinates are worse when it comes to detecting WHG-like drift though.


Distance to: ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso:RMPR15
0.08470109 ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso:RMPR15_K15-sim_scaled
0.11178540 ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso:RMPR15_HW-sim_scaled
0.11513599 ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso:RMPR15_K13-sim_scaled
0.36844168 ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso:RMPR15_K36-sim_scaled


ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso:RMPR15_K15-sim_scaled,0.1308,0.1116,0.1868,0.1904,0.1528,0.05 79,0.0125,0.0286,0.0846,0.0024,-0.0141,-0.0137,0.0217,-0.0054,0.0485,0.059,0.0085,0.0034,-0.0076,0.0545,0.0967,0.0144,-0.044,-0.1494,0.0166
ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso:RMPR15_HW-sim_scaled,0.1288,0.1239,0.1772,0.1728,0.1484,0.04 49,0.0144,0.0357,0.0821,0.0118,-0.015,-0.0139,0.0153,-0.0018,0.0404,0.048,0.0099,0.0137,-0.0041,0.0506,0.0789,0.0087,-0.0427,-0.1361,0.0133
ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso:RMPR15_K13-sim_scaled,0.1255,0.117,0.1759,0.1752,0.142,0.0539 ,0.015,0.0296,0.0751,0.0039,-0.0116,-0.0131,0.0181,-0.0075,0.0418,0.0517,0.0031,0.006,-0.0098,0.0478,0.0823,0.0127,-0.0393,-0.1336,0.0143
ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso:RMPR15_K36-sim_scaled,0.1350854507000001,0.12019329242,0.0860 856230186,0.07850324140000009,0.043922562047,0.028 175784189779996,0.008594066340000012,0.01339909486 9999975,0.0028445487999999297,-0.019348351299999927,-0.0023933583173999995,-0.004633678980000014,0.008357769549999998,0.013197 4217000001,0.00803572178999995,0.00130465582000008 35,-0.00808494582000005,0.0008218173199999734,0.001569 8623699999942,0.005423658235000002,0.0037746468000 00059,-0.0006559491600000023,0.0043760409199999975,-0.0012520649800000505,0.00240444529999978

PLogan
05-30-2022, 07:24 PM
Maybe we should ask Davidski what he thinks about these K36 > G25 conversions, are they more or less reliable?

But I wouldn't be surprised if he designed both tools to be kind of compatible with each other. It does make sense.

I started a minor analysis in the existing K13 Sims thread for evaluation. Different people shift different ways it appears. I converted about 50 kits yesterday from K36 -> G25 simulations. They do appear to be more accurate or consistent then the GenoPlot K13 simulations. Still nothing like the real thing.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?25896-Explorations-with-K13-Derived-G25-Sims&p=851824&viewfull=1#post851824


Vbknethio is using a linear regression model to arrive at the simulation. It makes sense having more data points than the K13 sims allows for a better approximation.