PDA

View Full Version : My fiance's father [half volga-german half russian(?)/romani] has the Y-DNA I-CTS5966



Bilgä
02-06-2022, 02:35 PM
As you can read from the title my fiance's father according to 23andMe has the Y-dna-haplo I-CTS5966. As far as I know this haplogroup is most common in slavic people. So nothing special, right?
My fiance's father is actually no ethnic russian at all. 23andMe said that his autosomal ancestral composition is 50% german and french (his mother is volga-german) and the other 50% is a mix of WANA, South European and Nothern Indian indicating Romani ancestry.
He barely has any Eastern European (3.4%). Until we tested him he always thought he was half german and half russian but it seems he is half german and half romani. His father was culturally russian so I assume that his romani line assimilated early. They probably were Russka Roma prior to assimilation.
My question would be, since his romani ancesty is on his father's line completely, how common is this haplogroup in Russka Roma? Or is his paternal line probably indeed russian(?)/slavic and intermarried in a romani family?

ph2ter
02-14-2022, 10:51 AM
As you can read from the title my fiance's father according to 23andMe has the Y-dna-haplo I-CTS5966. As far as I know this haplogroup is most common in slavic people. So nothing special, right?
My fiance's father is actually no ethnic russian at all. 23andMe said that his autosomal ancestral composition is 50% german and french (his mother is volga-german) and the other 50% is a mix of WANA, South European and Nothern Indian indicating Romani ancestry.
He barely has any Eastern European (3.4%). Until we tested him he always thought he was half german and half russian but it seems he is half german and half romani. His father was culturally russian so I assume that his romani line assimilated early. They probably were Russka Roma prior to assimilation.
My question would be, since his romani ancesty is on his father's line completely, how common is this haplogroup in Russka Roma? Or is his paternal line probably indeed russian(?)/slavic and intermarried in a romani family?
His y-DNA is obviously Slavic. No need to speculate Roma origin.

Q-M242-is-Papuan-related
02-14-2022, 12:09 PM
His y-DNA is obviously Slavic. No need to speculate Roma origin.

On the contrary, the 3200-year-old ancient sample I18719 Croatia_MBA_LBA had the Y-DNA I-CTS5966 and was located outside of the Slavic homeland.

https://i.ibb.co/4SLFbS3/11.png



This map is from Johannes Krause from the Max Planck Institute. The Yamnaya people are considered to be ancestors of the Indo-Europeans living in Europe. Then offshoot Indo-European cultures should have resembled the Yamnaya people at the time, when they split.
WHG and EEF peoples were not part of the Indo-European Yamnaya people. The Indo-European Yamnaya people were ancestors of the Balto-Slavs. The Balto-Slavs were Slavic ancestors.

https://i.ibb.co/SmZSQng/8.png

Balto-Slavic branched off its Germanic relatives, also ancestral to the Anglo-Saxons.

https://i.ibb.co/GnyXyZ4/6.png

ph2ter
02-14-2022, 12:30 PM
On the contrary, the 3200-year-old ancient sample I18719 Croatia_MBA_LBA had the Y-DNA I-CTS5966 and was located outside of the Slavic homeland.

https://i.ibb.co/4SLFbS3/11.png
This sample has Baltic admixture (there is no Baltic admixture in that area in MBA-LBA) and is taken from the site contaminated with modern and Medieval samples.
It is highly suspicious. I wouldn't base my conclusion on it.

Q-M242-is-Papuan-related
02-14-2022, 02:37 PM
This sample has Baltic admixture (there is no Baltic admixture in that area in MBA-LBA) and is taken from the site contaminated with modern and Medieval samples.
It is highly suspicious. I wouldn't base my conclusion on it.

Once this WHG people (also having the paternal I- haplogroup) had a connection to the East Asian population (the yellow component of the Admixture model). Also Neolithic farmers both from the Near East and Europe (EEF) had a connection to the East Asian population (the yellow component is present in Natufians, Levant_N, Anatolia_N, Iran_ChL, Ganj_Dareh_N (Iran), Shahr_I_Shokhta_BA (Indus_Periphery) from the Near East, and Cardial_EN, Iberia_EN, Hungary_EN, Trypillia, Remedello, Sweden_TRB, Globular_Amphora, LBK_EN and all other Neolithic farmers from Europe, and also in Balkan and Iberian hunter-gatherers and most other hunter-gatherers from Europe (Bichon, Romania_HG, Iron_Gates_HG, etc)).

https://i.ibb.co/hVMpLPj/1.png

ph2ter
02-14-2022, 02:58 PM
Once this WHG people (also having the paternal I- haplogroup) had a connection to the East Asian population (the yellow component of the Admixture model). Also Neolithic farmers both from the Near East and Europe (EEF) had a connection to the East Asian population (the yellow component is present in Natufians, Levant_N, Anatolia_N, Iran_ChL, Ganj_Dareh_N (Iran), Shahr_I_Shokhta_BA (Indus_Periphery) from the Near East, and Cardial_EN, Iberia_EN, Hungary_EN, Trypillia, Remedello, Sweden_TRB, Globular_Amphora, LBK_EN and all other Neolithic farmers from Europe, and also in Balkan and Iberian hunter-gatherers and most other hunter-gatherers from Europe (Bichon, Romania_HG, Iron_Gates_HG, etc)).


What?

Q-M242-is-Papuan-related
02-14-2022, 03:10 PM
What?

It has been known since the article ‘The genetic history of Ice Age Europe’ by Qiaomei Fu

‘Second, we detect an excess of allele sharing with east Asians in a subset of Villabruna Cluster individuals— beginning with an ~13,000-year-old individual from Switzerland—as revealed by significant statistics of the form D(Test1, Test2; Han, Mbuti) (Fig. 4b and Extended Data Fig. 3).’

Source:
The genetic history of Ice Age Europe
Qiaomei Fu1,2,3, Cosimo Posth4,5*, Mateja Hajdinjak3*, Martin Petr3, Swapan Mallick2,6,7, Daniel Fernandes8,9, Anja Furtwängler4, Wolfgang Haak5,10, Matthias Meyer3, Alissa Mittnik4,5, Birgit Nickel3, Alexander Peltzer4, Nadin Rohland2, Viviane Slon3, Sahra Talamo11, Iosif Lazaridis2, Mark Lipson2, Iain Mathieson2, Stephan Schiffels5, Pontus Skoglund2, Anatoly P. Derevianko12,13, Nikolai Drozdov12, Vyacheslav Slavinsky12, Alexander Tsybankov12, Renata Grifoni Cremonesi14, Francesco Mallegni15, Bernard Gély16, Eligio Vacca17, Manuel R. González Morales18, Lawrence G. Straus18,19, Christine Neugebauer-Maresch20, Maria Teschler-Nicola21,22, Silviu Constantin23, Oana Teodora Moldovan24, Stefano Benazzi11,25, Marco Peresani26, Donato Coppola27,28, Martina Lari29, Stefano Ricci30, Annamaria Ronchitelli30, Frédérique Valentin31, Corinne Thevenet32, Kurt Wehrberger33, Dan Grigorescu34, Hélčne Rougier35, Isabelle Crevecoeur36, Damien Flas37, Patrick Semal38, Marcello A. Mannino11,39, Christophe Cupillard40,41, Hervé Bocherens42,43, Nicholas J. Conard43,44, Katerina Harvati43,45, Vyacheslav Moiseyev46, Dorothée G. Drucker42, Jiří Svoboda47,48, Michael P. Richards11,49, David Caramelli29, Ron Pinhasi8, Janet Kelso3, Nick Patterson6, Johannes Krause4,5,43§, Svante Pääbo3§ & David Reich2,6,7

altvred
02-14-2022, 03:27 PM
This sample has Baltic admixture (there is no Baltic admixture in that area in MBA-LBA) and is taken from the site contaminated with modern and Medieval samples.
It is highly suspicious. I wouldn't base my conclusion on it.

The sample in question wasn't even carbon dated, so yeah, quite suspicious.



I18719 I18719 P3779; BzV 10a This study Context: Archaeological - Period 3200 144 1500-1000 BCE Croatia_MBA_LBA Bezdanjača Cave Croatia 44.8520052 15.4199444 1240K 2 3.747999 825868 M n/a (no relatives detected) I-Y3120 I2a1a2b1a1 HV0a1a ds.half,ds.half S18719.Y1.E1.L1,S18719.Y1.E2.L1 PASS .. 1 1 1 1 1 Croatia.Serbia Croatia LBA 0 0.747 0.011 0.245044 0.117 0.496 0.386 0.012 0.016 0.019 20.3 0.245044 Use Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP_lowEEF Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP 0.000007




Looking at his distances to modern South Slavs.

Distance to: HRV_MBA_LBA:I18719
0.02216696 Montenegrin
0.02447600 Serbian
0.02670059 Romanian
0.02889645 Moldovan
0.02983298 Bosnian
0.03074741 Macedonian
0.03222047 Bulgarian
0.03514048 Italian_Northeast
0.03582038 Croatian
0.03842223 Slovenian
0.03968533 Hungarian
0.03984469 Austrian
0.04116477 Gagauz
0.04356636 French_Alsace
0.04382027 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.04538599 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.04573552 Italian_Veneto
0.04683907 French_Provence
0.04769508 Swiss_German
0.04843503 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.04921153 French_Nord
0.04952250 Swiss_French
0.04997624 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.05027139 French_Auvergne
0.05047109 Swiss_Italian


Using DATES to approximate Steppe + EEF admixture, I18719 compared to the Croatia_MBA samples, most of whom were carbon-dated to around 1500 BC.



I4331 I4331 VV1, Grave 2A MathiesonNature2018 Direct: IntCal20 3519 29 1618-1517 calBCE (3305±20 BP, PSUAMS-2257) Croatia_MBA Veliki Vanik Croatia 43.194 17.344 1240K 1 3.141 711092 M n/a (no relatives detected) J-Z38240 J2b2a1a1a1b~ I1a1 ds.half S4331.E1.L2 PASS .. 1 1 1 1 1 Croatia.Serbia Croatia C.EBA 0 0.814 0.012 0.005261 0.052 0.556 0.392 0.013 0.018 0.022 17.8 0.005261 Use Ignore_Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Ignore_Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Ignore_Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP_o Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP 0.000522
I4332 I4332 VV3, Grave 2C MathiesonNature2018 Direct: IntCal20 3508 32 1613-1508 calBCE (3290±20 BP, PSUAMS-2258) Croatia_MBA Veliki Vanik Croatia 43.194 17.344 1240K 1 3.228 729628 F n/a (no relatives detected) n/a (female) n/a (female) W3a1 ds.half S4332.E1.L2 PASS .. 1 1 1 1 1 Croatia.Serbia Croatia C.EBA 0 0.838 0.012 0.292624 0.039 0.584 0.377 0.013 0.018 0.021 18.0 0.292624 Use Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP 0.465057
I26726 I26726 G1; P9176_Z-C This study Direct: IntCal20 3411 28 1507-1415 calBCE (3190±30 BP, Beta-423457) Croatia_MBA Gudnja cave Croatia 42.833333 17.7 1240K 1 9.93 896713 M n/a (no relatives detected) .. .. J1c3 ds.half S26726.Y1.E1.L1 PASS .. 1 1 1 1 1 Croatia.Serbia Croatia MBA 0 0.813 0.013 0.133441 0.021 0.554 0.425 0.014 0.017 0.022 19.3 0.133441 Use Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP 0.623172
I24342 I24342 Tumulus 3, G1; P8545 This study Direct: IntCal20 3410 23 1501-1421 calBCE (3185±20 BP, UCIAMS-233623) Croatia_MBA Velim-Kosa Croatia 43.90391 15.702382 1240K 1 6.288 820306 M n/a (no relatives detected) R-L2 R1b1a1b1a1a2b1 T2b23 ds.half S24342.Y1.E1.L1 PASS .. 1 1 1 1 1 Croatia.Serbia Croatia MBA 0 0.776 0.014 0.105953 0.109 0.517 0.374 0.014 0.019 0.022 17.0 0.105953 Use Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP_highWHG Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP NA




Yamnaya_Samara + Croatia_C_Lasinja

Croatia_MBA



dates_expfit version: 200
step (Morgans) :: 0.001000
fitting 1 exponentials + affine
after initialization: 0.000000 0.968
gslsetup called
gslans: 21 0.000000
0.970
error sd: 0.000498
halflife: 22.954
mean (generations): 30.197
0.003180567 -0.000006279
##end of run


Croatia_MBA_LBA



dates_expfit version: 200
step (Morgans) :: 0.001000
fitting 1 exponentials + affine
after initialization: 0.000001 0.940
gslsetup called
gslans: 20 0.000001
0.940
error sd: 0.001158
halflife: 11.286
mean (generations): 61.419
0.002280260 -0.000046753
##end of run


Suppose I18719 is a medieval South Slav, then that 61 generations result is being driven down by the relatively recent admixture between Paleo-Balkan and early-Slavic ancestries. Even if he's not, it's more than a bit unusual that a sample supposedly from 1000-1500BC shows an admixture date twice older than that of samples carbon-dated to 1500BC (Croatia_MBA).

Q-M242-is-Papuan-related
02-14-2022, 05:55 PM
This is a different sample who belongs to I-L161>S2639 branch, which is a ‘brother’ of the I-L621 branch, to which the I-CTS5996 I18719 3200-year-old sample belongs (the one that has the I-CTS5996 haplogroup).

https://i.ibb.co/gJqtcpV/2.png

The article ‘Ancient genomes indicate population replacement in Early Neolithic Britain’ called him an early-Neolithic Iberian farmer “I0412” (that is, this individual is from the Neolithic culture of Spain). He cannot be an Indo-European, a Balto-Slav and even a Slav.

Therefore, the ancestors of the I-CTS5996 I18719 sample related to the ancestors of the I0412 Neolithic sample from Spain were not Indo-Europeans, Balto-Slavs and even Slavs as well.

ph2ter
02-14-2022, 08:15 PM
Of course. We know that I2 originates from WHG. But it is Slavic from very early (in reference to Slavic history). All Slavic I2 men originate from a single man that was born in 200 BC or 300 BC and who was Y3120.

ph2ter
02-14-2022, 08:23 PM
The sample in question wasn't even carbon dated, so yeah, quite suspicious.



I18719 I18719 P3779; BzV 10a This study Context: Archaeological - Period 3200 144 1500-1000 BCE Croatia_MBA_LBA Bezdanjača Cave Croatia 44.8520052 15.4199444 1240K 2 3.747999 825868 M n/a (no relatives detected) I-Y3120 I2a1a2b1a1 HV0a1a ds.half,ds.half S18719.Y1.E1.L1,S18719.Y1.E2.L1 PASS .. 1 1 1 1 1 Croatia.Serbia Croatia LBA 0 0.747 0.011 0.245044 0.117 0.496 0.386 0.012 0.016 0.019 20.3 0.245044 Use Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP_lowEEF Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP 0.000007




Looking at his distances to modern South Slavs.

Distance to: HRV_MBA_LBA:I18719
0.02216696 Montenegrin
0.02447600 Serbian
0.02670059 Romanian
0.02889645 Moldovan
0.02983298 Bosnian
0.03074741 Macedonian
0.03222047 Bulgarian
0.03514048 Italian_Northeast
0.03582038 Croatian
0.03842223 Slovenian
0.03968533 Hungarian
0.03984469 Austrian
0.04116477 Gagauz
0.04356636 French_Alsace
0.04382027 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.04538599 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.04573552 Italian_Veneto
0.04683907 French_Provence
0.04769508 Swiss_German
0.04843503 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.04921153 French_Nord
0.04952250 Swiss_French
0.04997624 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.05027139 French_Auvergne
0.05047109 Swiss_Italian


Using DATES to approximate Steppe + EEF admixture, I18719 compared to the Croatia_MBA samples, most of whom were carbon-dated to around 1500 BC.



I4331 I4331 VV1, Grave 2A MathiesonNature2018 Direct: IntCal20 3519 29 1618-1517 calBCE (3305±20 BP, PSUAMS-2257) Croatia_MBA Veliki Vanik Croatia 43.194 17.344 1240K 1 3.141 711092 M n/a (no relatives detected) J-Z38240 J2b2a1a1a1b~ I1a1 ds.half S4331.E1.L2 PASS .. 1 1 1 1 1 Croatia.Serbia Croatia C.EBA 0 0.814 0.012 0.005261 0.052 0.556 0.392 0.013 0.018 0.022 17.8 0.005261 Use Ignore_Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Ignore_Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Ignore_Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP_o Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP 0.000522
I4332 I4332 VV3, Grave 2C MathiesonNature2018 Direct: IntCal20 3508 32 1613-1508 calBCE (3290±20 BP, PSUAMS-2258) Croatia_MBA Veliki Vanik Croatia 43.194 17.344 1240K 1 3.228 729628 F n/a (no relatives detected) n/a (female) n/a (female) W3a1 ds.half S4332.E1.L2 PASS .. 1 1 1 1 1 Croatia.Serbia Croatia C.EBA 0 0.838 0.012 0.292624 0.039 0.584 0.377 0.013 0.018 0.021 18.0 0.292624 Use Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP 0.465057
I26726 I26726 G1; P9176_Z-C This study Direct: IntCal20 3411 28 1507-1415 calBCE (3190±30 BP, Beta-423457) Croatia_MBA Gudnja cave Croatia 42.833333 17.7 1240K 1 9.93 896713 M n/a (no relatives detected) .. .. J1c3 ds.half S26726.Y1.E1.L1 PASS .. 1 1 1 1 1 Croatia.Serbia Croatia MBA 0 0.813 0.013 0.133441 0.021 0.554 0.425 0.014 0.017 0.022 19.3 0.133441 Use Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP 0.623172
I24342 I24342 Tumulus 3, G1; P8545 This study Direct: IntCal20 3410 23 1501-1421 calBCE (3185±20 BP, UCIAMS-233623) Croatia_MBA Velim-Kosa Croatia 43.90391 15.702382 1240K 1 6.288 820306 M n/a (no relatives detected) R-L2 R1b1a1b1a1a2b1 T2b23 ds.half S24342.Y1.E1.L1 PASS .. 1 1 1 1 1 Croatia.Serbia Croatia MBA 0 0.776 0.014 0.105953 0.109 0.517 0.374 0.014 0.019 0.022 17.0 0.105953 Use Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP_highWHG Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP NA




Yamnaya_Samara + Croatia_C_Lasinja

Croatia_MBA



dates_expfit version: 200
step (Morgans) :: 0.001000
fitting 1 exponentials + affine
after initialization: 0.000000 0.968
gslsetup called
gslans: 21 0.000000
0.970
error sd: 0.000498
halflife: 22.954
mean (generations): 30.197
0.003180567 -0.000006279
##end of run


Croatia_MBA_LBA



dates_expfit version: 200
step (Morgans) :: 0.001000
fitting 1 exponentials + affine
after initialization: 0.000001 0.940
gslsetup called
gslans: 20 0.000001
0.940
error sd: 0.001158
halflife: 11.286
mean (generations): 61.419
0.002280260 -0.000046753
##end of run


Suppose I18719 is a medieval South Slav, then that 61 generations result is being driven down by the relatively recent admixture between Paleo-Balkan and early-Slavic ancestries. Even if he's not, it's more than a bit unusual that a sample supposedly from 1000-1500BC shows an admixture date twice older than that of samples carbon-dated to 1500BC (Croatia_MBA).

That's a great indicator.

altvred
02-14-2022, 08:34 PM
This sample has Baltic admixture (there is no Baltic admixture in that area in MBA-LBA) and is taken from the site contaminated with modern and Medieval samples.
It is highly suspicious. I wouldn't base my conclusion on it.

I looked up articles on the Bezdanjača Cave site where I18719 is from. I couldn't find any info on I18719 himself using the "Skeletal Code" listed in the Patterson annotation files (P3779; BzV 10a), but here's an excerpt from an article on the site as a whole that is relevant to what ph2ter is talking about.



New analyses of a part of the anthropological material have
been conducted in recent years on a sample of 35 skulls. Firstly,
radiocarbon dating was performed on the anthropological ma-
terial itself to determine the age of the remains. The results for
two of the three skulls were identical and showed an age of be-
tween 1422 and 1281 BC (cal.),33 which is almost the same as the
results of the radiocarbon dating for two human postcranial
bones published in the analysis of stable isotopes by Zavodny
and associates.34 Surprisingly, the third skull, which exhibits
signs of violence, belonged to a person who came to Bezdanjača
much later – in the 17th century. Although archaeological mate-
rial suggests that most of the material from Bezdanjača can be
attributed to the Bronze Age, the presence of remains from lat-
er periods suggests that the analysis of human skeletal materi-
al should be approached with caution. Malinar mentions infor-
mation about the find of two human skeletons that most likely
ended up in Bezdanjača during World War II, as well as skeletal
remains of animals that accidentally fell in.35 Fortunately for
the archaeological profession, human skeletal remains found
along archaeological finds from the Bronze Age were located
deeper in the horizontal channels and caverns of the cave


The article

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ewi9ehtgXmZxb7hY5bL0_PTmh1IHOxou/view?usp=sharing

I have no idea if I18719 was found deeper in the cave along with the rest of the MBA artifacts and human remains that were carbon-dated to the MBA (it doesn't look like any of them made into the Patterson 21 paper). The fact that there are remains from the 17th century and World War 2 is a major red flag though.

mount123
02-14-2022, 09:56 PM
On the contrary, the 3200-year-old ancient sample I18719 Croatia_MBA_LBA had the Y-DNA I-CTS5966 and was located outside of the Slavic homeland.

https://i.ibb.co/4SLFbS3/11.png

Apart from his obvious Slavic Y DNA and auDNA profile he also has a mtDNA that split in the 13th century. This sample does not plot nowhere near the local BA/IA samples for that matter.

I doubt that you even read the paper in question.

It still is a big question mark to me that in 2022 there are still people who push the idea that Slavs are autochthonous in South East Europe.

Q-M242-is-Papuan-related
02-14-2022, 10:40 PM
Apart from his obvious Slavic Y DNA and auDNA profile he also has a mtDNA that split in the 13th century. This sample does not plot nowhere near the local BA/IA samples for that matter.

I doubt that you even read the paper in question.

It still is a big question mark to me that in 2022 there are still people who push the idea that Slavs are autochthonous in South East Europe.

On the contrary, this 3200-year-old ancient sample I18719 Croatia_MBA_LBA had the Y-DNA I-CTS5966, and he could not be a Slav, because he was dated to the Bronze Age in the scientific article, while there was no Slavic expansion from the Slavic homeland in Eastern Europe to the Balkans prior to 1400-1500 years ago (500-600 AD).

https://i.ibb.co/4SLFbS3/11.png



This map is from Johannes Krause from the Max Planck Institute. The Yamnaya people are considered to be ancestors of the Indo-Europeans living in Europe. Then offshoot Indo-European cultures should have resembled the Yamnaya people at the time, when they split.
WHG and EEF peoples were not part of the Indo-European Yamnaya people. The Indo-European Yamnaya people were ancestors of the Balto-Slavs. The Balto-Slavs were Slavic ancestors.

https://i.ibb.co/SmZSQng/8.png

Balto-Slavic branched off its Germanic relatives, also ancestral to the Anglo-Saxons.

https://i.ibb.co/GnyXyZ4/6.png


Once this WHG people (also having the paternal I- haplogroup) had a connection to the East Asian population (the yellow component of the Admixture model). Also Neolithic farmers both from the Near East and Europe (EEF) had a connection to the East Asian population (the yellow component is present in Natufians, Levant_N, Anatolia_N, Iran_ChL, Ganj_Dareh_N (Iran), Shahr_I_Shokhta_BA (Indus_Periphery) from the Near East, and Cardial_EN, Iberia_EN, Hungary_EN, Trypillia, Remedello, Sweden_TRB, Globular_Amphora, LBK_EN and all other Neolithic farmers from Europe, and also in Balkan and Iberian hunter-gatherers and most other hunter-gatherers from Europe (Bichon, Romania_HG, Iron_Gates_HG, etc)).
https://i.ibb.co/hVMpLPj/1.png

It has been known since the article ‘The genetic history of Ice Age Europe’ by Qiaomei Fu
‘Second, we detect an excess of allele sharing with east Asians in a subset of Villabruna Cluster individuals— beginning with an ~13,000-year-old individual from Switzerland—as revealed by significant statistics of the form D(Test1, Test2; Han, Mbuti) (Fig. 4b and Extended Data Fig. 3).’
Source:
The genetic history of Ice Age Europe
Qiaomei Fu1,2,3, Cosimo Posth4,5*, Mateja Hajdinjak3*, Martin Petr3, Swapan Mallick2,6,7, Daniel Fernandes8,9, Anja Furtwängler4, Wolfgang Haak5,10, Matthias Meyer3, Alissa Mittnik4,5, Birgit Nickel3, Alexander Peltzer4, Nadin Rohland2, Viviane Slon3, Sahra Talamo11, Iosif Lazaridis2, Mark Lipson2, Iain Mathieson2, Stephan Schiffels5, Pontus Skoglund2, Anatoly P. Derevianko12,13, Nikolai Drozdov12, Vyacheslav Slavinsky12, Alexander Tsybankov12, Renata Grifoni Cremonesi14, Francesco Mallegni15, Bernard Gély16, Eligio Vacca17, Manuel R. González Morales18, Lawrence G. Straus18,19, Christine Neugebauer-Maresch20, Maria Teschler-Nicola21,22, Silviu Constantin23, Oana Teodora Moldovan24, Stefano Benazzi11,25, Marco Peresani26, Donato Coppola27,28, Martina Lari29, Stefano Ricci30, Annamaria Ronchitelli30, Frédérique Valentin31, Corinne Thevenet32, Kurt Wehrberger33, Dan Grigorescu34, Hélčne Rougier35, Isabelle Crevecoeur36, Damien Flas37, Patrick Semal38, Marcello A. Mannino11,39, Christophe Cupillard40,41, Hervé Bocherens42,43, Nicholas J. Conard43,44, Katerina Harvati43,45, Vyacheslav Moiseyev46, Dorothée G. Drucker42, Jiří Svoboda47,48, Michael P. Richards11,49, David Caramelli29, Ron Pinhasi8, Janet Kelso3, Nick Patterson6, Johannes Krause4,5,43§, Svante Pääbo3§ & David Reich2,6,7


There is also a different sample who belongs to I-L161>S2639 branch, which is a ‘brother’ of the I-L621 branch, to which the I-CTS5996 I18719 3200-year-old sample belongs (the one that has the I-CTS5996 haplogroup).

https://i.ibb.co/gJqtcpV/2.png

The article ‘Ancient genomes indicate population replacement in Early Neolithic Britain’ called him an early-Neolithic Iberian farmer “I0412” (that is, this individual is from the Neolithic culture of Spain). He cannot be an Indo-European, a Balto-Slav and even a Slav.

Therefore, the ancestors of the I-CTS5996 I18719 sample related to the ancestors of the I0412 Neolithic farmer sample from Spain were not Indo-Europeans, Balto-Slavs and even Slavs as well.

This is the information from the scientific article:



I18719 I18719 P3779; BzV 10a This study Context: Archaeological - Period 3200 144 1500-1000 BCE Croatia_MBA_LBA Bezdanjača Cave Croatia 44.8520052 15.4199444 1240K 2 3.747999 825868 M n/a (no relatives detected) I-Y3120 I2a1a2b1a1 HV0a1a ds.half,ds.half S18719.Y1.E1.L1,S18719.Y1.E2.L1 PASS .. 1 1 1 1 1 Croatia.Serbia Croatia LBA 0 0.747 0.011 0.245044 0.117 0.496 0.386 0.012 0.016 0.019 20.3 0.245044 Use Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP_lowEEF Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP 0.000007



https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41586-021-04287-4/MediaObjects/41586_2021_4287_MOESM4_ESM.xlsx

The authors of the article are the following:

Large-scale migration into Britain during the Middle to Late Bronze Age

Nick Patterson, Michael Isakov, Thomas Booth, Lindsey Büster, Claire-Elise Fischer, Ińigo Olalde, Harald Ringbauer, Ali Akbari, Olivia Cheronet, Madeleine Bleasdale, Nicole Adamski, Eveline Altena, Rebecca Bernardos, Selina Brace, Nasreen Broomandkhoshbacht, Kimberly Callan, Francesca Candilio, Brendan Culleton, Elizabeth Curtis, Lea Demetz, Kellie Sara Duffett Carlson, Ceiridwen J. Edwards, Daniel M. Fernandes, M. George B. Foody, Suzanne Freilich, Helen Goodchild, Aisling Kearns, Ann Marie Lawson, Iosif Lazaridis, Matthew Mah, Swapan Mallick, Kirsten Mandl, Adam Micco, Megan Michel, Guillermo Bravo Morante, Jonas Oppenheimer, Kadir Toykan Özdoğan, Lijun Qiu, Constanze Schattke, Kristin Stewardson, J. Noah Workman, Fatma Zalzala, Zhao Zhang, Bibiana Agustí, Tim Allen, Katalin Almássy, Luc Amkreutz, Abigail Ash, Christčle Baillif-Ducros, Alistair Barclay, László Bartosiewicz, Katherine Baxter, Zsolt Bernert, Jan Blažek, Mario Bodružić, Philippe Boissinot, Clive Bonsall, Pippa Bradley, Marcus Brittain, Alison Brookes, Fraser Brown, Lisa Brown, Richard Brunning, Chelsea Budd, Josip Burmaz, Sylvain Canet, Silvia Carnicero-Cáceres, Morana Čaušević-Bully, Andrew Chamberlain, Sébastien Chauvin, Sharon Clough, Natalija Čondić, Alfredo Coppa, Oliver Craig, Matija Črešnar, Vicki Cummings, Szabolcs Czifra, Alžběta Danielisová, Robin Daniels, Alex Davies, Philip de Jersey, Jody Deacon, Csilla Deminger, Peter W. Ditchfield, Marko Dizdar, Miroslav Dobeš, Miluše Dobisíková, László Domboróczki, Gail Drinkall, Ana Đukić, Michal Ernée, Christopher Evans, Jane Evans, Manuel Fernández-Götz, Slavica Filipović, Andrew Fitzpatrick, Harry Fokkens, Chris Fowler, Allison Fox, Zsolt Gallina, Michelle Gamble, Manuel R. González Morales, Borja González-Rabanal, Adrian Green, Katalin Gyenesei, Diederick Habermehl, Tamás Hajdu, Derek Hamilton, James Harris, Chris Hayden, Joep Hendriks, Bénédicte Hernu, Gill Hey, Milan Horňák, Gábor Ilon, Eszter Istvánovits, Andy M. Jones, Martina Blečić Kavur, Kevin Kazek, Robert A. Kenyon, Amal Khreisheh, Viktória Kiss, Jos Kleijne, Mark Knight, Lisette M. Kootker, Péter F. Kovács, Anita Kozubová, Gabriella Kulcsár, Valéria Kulcsár, Christophe Le Pennec, Michael Legge, Matt Leivers, Louise Loe, Olalla López-Costas, Tom Lord, Dženi Los, James Lyall, Ana B. Marín-Arroyo, Philip Mason, Damir Matošević, Andy Maxted, Lauren McIntyre, Jacqueline McKinley, Kathleen McSweeney, Bernard Meijlink, Balázs G. Mende, Marko Menđušić, Milan Metlička, Sophie Meyer, Kristina Mihovilić, Lidija Milasinovic, Steve Minnitt, Joanna Moore, Geoff Morley, Graham Mullan, Margaréta Musilová, Benjamin Neil, Rebecca Nicholls, Mario Novak, Maria Pala, Martin Papworth, Cécile Paresys, Ricky Patten, Domagoj Perkić, Krisztina Pesti, Alba Petit, Katarína Petriščáková, Coline Pichon, Catriona Pickard, Zoltán Pilling, T. Douglas Price, Siniša Radović, Rebecca Redfern, Branislav Resutík, Daniel T. Rhodes, Martin B. Richards, Amy Roberts, Jean Roefstra, Pavel Sankot, Alena Šefčáková, Alison Sheridan, Sabine Skae, Miroslava Šmolíková, Krisztina Somogyi, Ágnes Somogyvári, Mark Stephens, Géza Szabó, Anna Szécsényi-Nagy, Tamás Szeniczey, Jonathan Tabor, Károly Tankó, Clenis Tavarez Maria, Rachel Terry, Biba Teržan, Maria Teschler-Nicola, Jesús F. Torres-Martínez, Julien Trapp, Ross Turle, Ferenc Ujvári, Menno van der Heiden, Petr Veleminsky, Barbara Veselka, Zdeněk Vytlačil, Clive Waddington, Paula Ware, Paul Wilkinson, Linda Wilson, Rob Wiseman, Eilidh Young, Joško Zaninović, Andrej Žitňan, Carles Lalueza-Fox, Peter de Knijff, Ian Barnes, Peter Halkon, Mark G. Thomas, Douglas J. Kennett, Barry Cunliffe, Malcolm Lillie, Nadin Rohland, Ron Pinhasi, Ian Armit & David Reich

mount123
02-14-2022, 11:19 PM
On the contrary, this 3200-year-old ancient sample I18719 Croatia_MBA_LBA had the Y-DNA I-CTS5966, and he could not be a Slav, because he was dated to the Bronze Age in the scientific article, while there was no Slavic expansion from the Slavic homeland in Eastern Europe to the Balkans prior to 1400-1500 years ago (500-600 AD).



Once this WHG people (also having the paternal I- haplogroup) had a connection to the East Asian population (the yellow component of the Admixture model). Also Neolithic farmers both from the Near East and Europe (EEF) had a connection to the East Asian population (the yellow component is present in Natufians, Levant_N, Anatolia_N, Iran_ChL, Ganj_Dareh_N (Iran), Shahr_I_Shokhta_BA (Indus_Periphery) from the Near East, and Cardial_EN, Iberia_EN, Hungary_EN, Trypillia, Remedello, Sweden_TRB, Globular_Amphora, LBK_EN and all other Neolithic farmers from Europe, and also in Balkan and Iberian hunter-gatherers and most other hunter-gatherers from Europe (Bichon, Romania_HG, Iron_Gates_HG, etc)).

It has been known since the article ‘The genetic history of Ice Age Europe’ by Qiaomei Fu
‘Second, we detect an excess of allele sharing with east Asians in a subset of Villabruna Cluster individuals— beginning with an ~13,000-year-old individual from Switzerland—as revealed by significant statistics of the form D(Test1, Test2; Han, Mbuti) (Fig. 4b and Extended Data Fig. 3).’
Source:
The genetic history of Ice Age Europe


There is also a different sample who belongs to I-L161>S2639 branch, which is a ‘brother’ of the I-L621 branch, to which the I-CTS5996 I18719 3200-year-old sample belongs (the one that has the I-CTS5996 haplogroup).


The article ‘Ancient genomes indicate population replacement in Early Neolithic Britain’ called him an early-Neolithic Iberian farmer “I0412” (that is, this individual is from the Neolithic culture of Spain). He cannot be an Indo-European, a Balto-Slav and even a Slav.

Therefore, the ancestors of the I-CTS5996 I18719 sample related to the ancestors of the I0412 Neolithic farmer sample from Spain were not Indo-Europeans, Balto-Slavs and even Slavs as well.

What does the Bronze Age have to do with the Neolithic? You lack basic logic by comparing completely different haplogroups with one another to conclude a pseudo scientific ideology that you are desperately trying to fabricate.

Which part of his MtDNA split in the 13th century did you not understand?

His Slavic Y DNA, MtDNA and auDNA do not correlate with the BA/IA samples of the region in any way.

Being a science refuser does not make your non sense, non factual claims appear more serious at all.

Q-M242-is-Papuan-related
02-15-2022, 10:32 AM
That the paternal I2a Loschbour individual shares a slight connection to ancient individuals carrying East Asian ancestry (especially the Bianbiandong individual from the Shandong province of China) is known from the article 'Ancient DNA indicates human population shifts and admixture in northern and southern China'

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aba0909#:~:text=In%20individuals%20from%20 northern%20and,and%20admixture%20during%20the%20Ne olithic.

Melinda A Yang 1 2 3, Xuechun Fan 4 5, Bo Sun 6, Chungyu Chen 7, Jianfeng Lang 8, Ying-Chin Ko 9, Cheng-Hwa Tsang 10, Hunglin Chiu 10, Tianyi Wang 1 2 11, Qingchuan Bao 12, Xiaohong Wu 13, Mateja Hajdinjak 14, Albert Min-Shan Ko 1, Manyu Ding 1 2 15, Peng Cao 1 2, Ruowei Yang 1 2, Feng Liu 1 2, Birgit Nickel 13, Qingyan Dai 1 2, Xiaotian Feng 1 2, Lizhao Zhang 1 2, Chengkai Sun 16, Chao Ning 17, Wen Zeng 18, Yongsheng Zhao 18, Ming Zhang 1 2 15, Xing Gao 1 2 15, Yinqiu Cui 17, David Reich 19 20 21 22, Mark Stoneking 14, Qiaomei Fu 23 2 15

https://i.ibb.co/DwxG9B2/4.png

mihaitzateo
02-15-2022, 03:17 PM
Of course. We know that I2 originates from WHG. But it is Slavic from very early (in reference to Slavic history). All Slavic I2 men originate from a single man that was born in 200 BC or 300 BC and who was Y3120.

Some Orkney Samples with I2A1B-M423-Isles mutation, found from 4k-5k years ago.

https://www.pnas.org/content/119/8/e2108001119
Actually, till our days, no basal I2A1B-M423, so without Dinaric/L621 and Isles/L161 mutations,was found.
I2A1B-M423 was found at the border of Serbia with Romania,near Banat, from 1000 BC.
Do not think it was Slavic, that I2A1B-M423 but I do not have the link.