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View Full Version : What happened in Erzurum? - Greeks, Turks and Armenians



Liquid
02-17-2022, 05:21 PM
Ancient components...

Target: Greek_Erzurum
Distance: 2.3463% / 0.02346300
55.6 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
18.8 Caucasus_Hunter-Gatherer_GEO_CHG
17.0 Iran_Neolithic_Farmer_IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
6.8 Pontic_Steppe_Yamnaya_Pastoralist_Yamnaya_RUS_Sama ra
1.8 Levant_Neolithic_Farmer_Levant_PPNB

Target: Turkish_East_Erzurum
Distance: 2.6766% / 0.02676599
42.8 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
20.8 Iran_Neolithic_Farmer_IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
20.2 Caucasus_Hunter-Gatherer_GEO_CHG
10.4 Pontic_Steppe_Yamnaya_Pastoralist_Yamnaya_RUS_Sama ra
4.8 Levant_Neolithic_Farmer_Levant_PPNB
1.0 North_China_Neolithic_Farmer_CHN_Boshan_N

Target: Armenian_Erzurum
Distance: 3.2335% / 0.03233523
42.8 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
19.6 Caucasus_Hunter-Gatherer_GEO_CHG
17.8 Iran_Neolithic_Farmer_IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
13.8 Levant_Neolithic_Farmer_Levant_PPNB
6.0 Pontic_Steppe_Yamnaya_Pastoralist_Yamnaya_RUS_Sama ra

And my BAish calculator, where I've tried my best to look at contributions from Europe removed from back-migration (DEU_MA), Western Anatolia (GITA), Caucasus (Maykop and Kura-Araxes), Fertile Crescent (Alalakh), Iran (TKM_Gonur1) and Turkish (Karluk).

Target: Greek_Erzurum
Distance: 0.2558% / 0.00255781 | R5P
40.0 GITA_Rome_Imperial
28.4 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
20.4 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
9.6 TKM_Gonur1_BA
1.6 DEU_MA

Target: Turkish_East_Erzurum
Distance: 0.7744% / 0.00774351 | R5P
41.8 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
31.2 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
13.0 TKM_Gonur1_BA
10.4 DEU_MA
3.6 KAZ_Karluk

Target: Armenian_Erzurum
Distance: 0.6422% / 0.00642158 | R5P
55.2 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
23.6 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
8.6 TKM_Gonur1_BA
8.2 GITA_Rome_Imperial
4.4 DEU_MA

Multiple outputs for ease of comparison

48462

48463

Liquid
02-17-2022, 06:10 PM
Modern populations

Target: Greek_Erzurum
Distance: 0.3140% / 0.00313966
47.0 Greek_Trabzon
27.6 Greek_Cappadocia
15.6 Iranian_Zoroastrian
4.0 Georgian_Imer
4.0 Greek_Peloponnese
1.8 Assyrian

Target: Turkish_East_Erzurum
Distance: 0.7320% / 0.00732049
26.4 Iranian_Zoroastrian
21.0 Assyrian
19.4 Georgian_Imer
16.6 Greek_Trabzon
11.2 Circassian
3.6 Greek_Cappadocia
1.8 KAZ_Karluk

Target: Armenian_Erzurum
Distance: 0.5057% / 0.00505743
45.6 Assyrian
25.6 Greek_Trabzon
16.0 Greek_Cappadocia
5.6 Georgian_Imer
3.8 Saudi
3.4 Iranian_Zoroastrian

Liquid
02-21-2022, 05:58 AM
A possible order of events:


1. Target: Armenian_Erzurum
Distance: 1.1385% / 0.01138499 | R3P
73.4 Assyrian
26.6 Georgian_Imer


2. Target: Greek_Erzurum
Distance: 0.9626% / 0.00962622 | R5P
44.6 Armenian_Erzurum
32.6 Greek_Trabzon
8.6 Greek_Cappadocia
7.4 Georgian_Imer
6.8 Greek_Central_Macedonia


3. Target: Turkish_Erzurum
Distance: 1.0860% / 0.01086005 | R3P
46.0 Azerbaijani
30.6 Greek_Erzurum
23.4 Georgian_Imer

bkru11
02-21-2022, 09:58 AM
How many Greek_Erzurum samples do you have?

Liquid
03-05-2022, 12:31 AM
How many Greek_Erzurum samples do you have?

Just the one, I have no idea if it's an average or not, I found it in a thread

Sorcelow
03-05-2022, 01:46 AM
Just the one, I have no idea if it's an average or not, I found it in a thread

Do you mind posting the coordinates for this sample?

bkru11
03-05-2022, 10:53 AM
Just the one, I have no idea if it's an average or not, I found it in a thread

Is it this one? Pontus_Greek(Erzurum),0.105738,0.137305,-0.051242,-0.058113,-0.024762,-0.012587,0.006931,-0.004562,-0.034347,-0.003421,0.003158,0.006416,-0.010743,0.001357,-0.004256,-0.007050,0.007926,-0.001685,-0.001197,0.003373,0.002551,0.001910,-0.001543,-0.007410,0.000391

Michalis Moriopoulos
03-05-2022, 03:48 PM
The Erzurum Greeks are K13 sims that I found on Gedmatch from a guy that runs his own Pontic FTDNA project. I'm going to be doing a feature thread on these and other samples of interest soon.

Demis
04-07-2022, 08:55 PM
I thought Turks of Erzurum were Turkified locals (i.e. Armenians in this case), am I wrong with that presumption?

Liquid
04-24-2022, 10:24 PM
The Erzurum Greeks are K13 sims that I found on Gedmatch from a guy that runs his own Pontic FTDNA project. I'm going to be doing a feature thread on these and other samples of interest soon.

A sim is only as good as its assumptions... perhaps its a smoothing out of known samples he'd like to keep anonymous?


I thought Turks of Erzurum were Turkified locals (i.e. Armenians in this case), am I wrong with that presumption?

It was a Roman/Byzantine frontier town with Armenia/Sassania. When the Arabs conquered the town they called it the "land of the Rum" (i.e. Romans), ard ar-Rum, which became Erzurum with the Turkish conquest. We still use Rum to refer to Greeks because the Rum in Anatolia spoke Greek not Armenian.

Onur Dincer
05-02-2022, 08:28 AM
It was a Roman/Byzantine frontier town with Armenia/Sassania. When the Arabs conquered the town they called it the "land of the Rum" (i.e. Romans), ard ar-Rum, which became Erzurum with the Turkish conquest. We still use Rum to refer to Greeks because the Rum in Anatolia spoke Greek not Armenian.

"Land of the Rum" etymology does not hold for Erzurum (should have been Arzurum otherwise), luckily we know well its real etymology based on the historical sources. It was always a mostly Armenian-populated region since the ancient times, Greeks/Romans were never more than a minority there. The current Wikipedia article describes well its real etymology:


The city was originally known in Armenian as Karno K'aghak' (Armenian: Կարնոյ քաղաք), meaning city of Karin, to distinguish it from the district of Karin (Կարին).[1] It is presumed its name was derived from a local tribe called the Karenitis.[4] An alternate theory contends that a local princely family, the Kamsarakans, the Armenian off-shoot of the Iranian Kārin Pahlav family, lent its name to the locale that eventually became the city.[5]

During Roman times, Erzurum was named Theodosiopolis (Latin: Theodosiopolis, Greek: Θεοδοσιούπολις). After the Arab conquest of Armenia in the seventh century, the city was known to the Arabs as Kālīkalā (adopted from the original Armenian name Karno K'aghak' (Armenian: Կարնոյ քաղաք), meaning "Karin City", to distinguish it from the district of Karin (Կարին).[1]

It received its present name after its conquest by the Seljuk Turks following the Battle of Manzikert in 1071.[1] In 1048/49, a neighboring commercial city named Artze (Arcn, Arzan; Armenian: Արծն) was heavily sacked by the Seljuks.[1][6] Its Armenian, Syrian, and other Christian inhabitants moved to Theodosiopolis, which they began calling "Artsn Rum" (meaning Artze of the Rūm, i.e., Romans) to distinguish it from their former residence.[7][8][9][1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erzurum