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ph2ter
03-29-2022, 11:44 AM
My proposal:

https://i.imgur.com/eBpxXz7.png

Here are all the main symbols of haplogroup I:
- two bears as totem animals of European hunter gatherers
- a trilithon symbolizing our megalithic ancestors (symbolizing also Isles clades of I2a1)
- valknut symbolizing I1
- Slavic thunder symbol (of Perun) symbolizing Slavic clades of I2a1
- letter I.

There are also some other clades, like I2a2...?

Slightly different colors:

https://i.imgur.com/B3axRki.png

vasil
03-29-2022, 02:31 PM
LOL you read my mind with the bears that would have been my first choice maybe a cave bear specifically, the stag is probably number two. Now that I think about it something weird and totemic like a cave bear with the horns of a stag is probably optimal. Also you already have I on the inside the megalith so adding it bellow is a bit redundant.

Vognejar
03-29-2022, 04:23 PM
If you don't mind, I'll put in my five cents) In my understanding (I have superficial knowledge about this haplogroup, except for the branches of the Slavs), this haplogroup is associated with the north. I would take "cold colors", but they are here. Secondly, it is rather according to the rules of heraldry, if it is a coat of arms, and not an emblem, there should not be letters here (there is an exception only for ancient Rome). It is better to use something resembling runes or some kind of rune stone. And third, maybe it's my perception that the bears seem to worship Stonehenge.
In general, the idea is original, and the bears really fit. This is just my subjective opinion. There is a good generator of ideas for coats of arms - "Armoria" - I advise everyone who is interested in the topic of heraldry.

MitchellSince1893
03-29-2022, 04:27 PM
You could use the crack between the stones to form an I shape.

Its almost there as is.

ph2ter
03-29-2022, 04:39 PM
I agree, the I inside the stones is a good idea.
I also was thinking about a cave bear, but something simetrical around the stones is needed. And maybe to make valknut in white, because it will resemble the white snow mountains from the Ice age

cheshire
03-29-2022, 04:58 PM
Awesome! Hope others make coat of arms for their haplogroups too :)

ph2ter
03-29-2022, 05:04 PM
Maybe something like this:

https://i.imgur.com/3dVQPAH.png

vasil
03-29-2022, 06:38 PM
Maybe something like this:

https://i.imgur.com/3dVQPAH.png

Better without the I on the bottom and i just noticed the valknut and lighting sign look like a sun over mountains maybe make the lighting a bit smaller in proportion to the valknut. The colors I am bit iffy on, blue has more of a sky father/eternal blue skye vibe.

ph2ter
03-29-2022, 07:27 PM
Better without the I on the bottom and i just noticed the valknut and lighting sign look like a sun over mountains maybe make the lighting a bit smaller in proportion to the valknut. The colors I am bit iffy on, blue has more of a sky father/eternal blue skye vibe.
The Sun behind the snowy mountains also represents the winter solstice at the Stonehenge.

Every symbol is multifaceted.

https://i.imgur.com/vzAt4Na.png

Another version:
https://i.imgur.com/CvDbxV1.png

small
https://i.imgur.com/lhx5Yiu.png

Vognejar
03-30-2022, 06:16 AM
The Sun behind the snowy mountains also represents the winter solstice at the Stonehenge.
small
https://i.imgur.com/lhx5Yiu.png

As for me, I think this version more better

ph2ter
03-30-2022, 06:29 AM
And another one:

https://i.imgur.com/97EUpIr.png

ph2ter
03-30-2022, 06:36 AM
Or maybe:
https://i.imgur.com/m7KsVbp.png
https://i.imgur.com/G000HTg.png

Vognejar
03-30-2022, 10:17 AM
Or maybe:
https://i.imgur.com/m7KsVbp.png

This is the one I like the best at the moment. I love it when there are fewer colors and the symbolism has a clear interpretation.
Additionally, I recommend that you familiarize yourself with the most important rules in heraldry ("nor colour on colour").
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_tincture
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_tincture)

ph2ter
03-30-2022, 10:59 AM
https://i.imgur.com/c0IbGIY.png

ph2ter
03-30-2022, 11:07 AM
This is the one I like the best at the moment. I love it when there are fewer colors and the symbolism has a clear interpretation.
Additionally, I recommend that you familiarize yourself with the most important rules in heraldry ("nor colour on colour").
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_tincture
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_tincture)

What does it mean in my case?

bce
03-30-2022, 11:08 AM
Maybe something like this:

https://i.imgur.com/3dVQPAH.png

I like this one the best. do you mind if I post my own edit?

ph2ter
03-30-2022, 11:18 AM
I like this one the best. do you mind if I post my own edit?
Go on.

bce
03-30-2022, 11:25 AM
Go on.

https://i.imgur.com/b8kAk9Q.png

1) the bears facing outwards, I think it looks more according to traditions of heraldry this way (I'm no expert), and now they are they "protecting" the trilithon instead of "worshipping" it as somebody said.
2) the valknut moved down to fill the place of the letter "I" from the first version

that's it

ph2ter
03-30-2022, 11:30 AM
1) the bears facing outwards, I think it looks more according to traditions of heraldry this way (I'm no expert), and now they are they "protecting" the stonehenge instead of "worshipping" it as somebody said.
2) the trilithon moved down to fill the place of the letter "I" from the first version

that's it
Yes, it is better this way.

But my last take is:
https://i.imgur.com/c0IbGIY.png

It contains simple nature elements, but every one of these element has certain symbolism and their composition also have hidden not obvious mythological meanings.

bce
03-30-2022, 11:35 AM
Yes, it is better this way.

But my last take is:
https://i.imgur.com/c0IbGIY.png

It contains simple nature elements, but every one of these element has certain symbolism and their composition also have hidden not obvious mythological meanings.

I prefer the earlier versions simply because I feel the valknut in the background behind the trilithon looks too modern, and takes away that traditional coat of arms feel.

ph2ter
03-30-2022, 11:37 AM
I prefer the earlier versions simply because I feel the trilithion in the bacground behind the stonehenge looks too modern, and takes away that traditional coat of arms feel.
You switched trilithon for valknut.
And this coat of arms is modern.

bce
03-30-2022, 11:39 AM
You switched trilithon for valknut.
And this coat of arms is modern.

yeah, you are right, i'll edit my posts not to confuse people. :biggrin1:

SG_Jun
03-30-2022, 12:50 PM
Awesome! Hope others make coat of arms for their haplogroups too :)


I'll echo this comment. An interesting undertaking, would be definitely intrigued to see more flags / coat of arms being created for the various haplogroups :beerchug:

ph2ter
03-30-2022, 12:57 PM
https://i.imgur.com/j5lLhY5.png

MitchellSince1893
03-30-2022, 10:00 PM
One option is to have the bears be supporters
https://pin.it/5dZSkbY
https://pin.it/5dZSkbY

Frees up space on shield if needed.

MitchellSince1893
03-30-2022, 10:01 PM
https://i.imgur.com/j5lLhY5.png
I like the additional color. The prior version looked “arctic”

ph2ter
03-30-2022, 10:10 PM
I like the additional color. The prior version looked “arctic”
I agree.
It was because haplogroup I struggled with the last glaciers of Ice Age Europe.
The cave bear with antlers look more totem-like, which is appropriate for hunter gatherer society (which is our origin)

MitchellSince1893
03-30-2022, 10:19 PM
One possibility is you treat the three levels on your shield as representing three periods with an appropriate i2b symbol for each. Kind of like an archaeological dig with the older stuff at the bottom.

For example the bottom representing Paleolithic I2b the middle Mesolithic and the top being Neolithic

ph2ter
03-30-2022, 10:39 PM
One possibility is you treat the three levels on your shield as representing three periods with an appropriate i2b symbol for each. Kind of like an archaeological dig with the older stuff at the bottom.

For example the bottom representing Paleolithic I2b the middle Mesolithic and the top being Neolithic
Yes, the symbols and composition have complex and intertwined meanings :)

The bear is chtonic/underground animal/deity. Perun (the sun siymbol) on the top is sky god, thunder god. Trilithon and the Sun and valknut - mountains represent winter solstice, important event for neolithic society.

JonikW
03-30-2022, 11:11 PM
Yes, the symbols and composition have complex and intertwined meanings :)

The bear is chtonic/underground animal/deity. Perun (the sun siymbol) on the top is sky god, thunder god. Trilithon and the Sun and valknut - mountains represent winter solstice, important event for neolithic society.

Thanks for this ph2ter. I really like the fact that you've reunited us I2 and I1 folk under the I umbrella and used imagery to represent both histories across geographical locations and points of time. Our shared I origin is too often forgotten or overlooked in my opinion (including by me). The megaliths with the letter I between them are perfect. This is excellent work and I hope it inspires other haplogroups here.

Vognejar
03-31-2022, 08:57 AM
I agree.
It was because haplogroup I struggled with the last glaciers of Ice Age Europe.
The cave bear with antlers look more totem-like, which is appropriate for hunter gatherer society (which is our origin)

I also think. that the totem animal should be an obligatory element of the coat of arms. It goes out of history. For example, in my case, among the Illyrians, each tribe had its own totem. And I chose the golden falcon not only because of Rome and the prevalence of the haplogroup in the heraldry of the area, but also because it lives in the Mediterranean climate, like most of my haplogroup. Another logic lies in the natural colors of nature in this climate. And since all other Europeans, these are river civilizations. seas, and for the Mediterraneans - this is especially, then from here the blue color of the coat of arms, as the main background. After the J2b crest, I'm thinking of going ahead and making crests for J2a and J2. In our case, after all, J2 and J1 are quite different branches.

By the way, an interesting idea is to reflect the percentage of hunter-gatherers, cattle breeders, farmers in the coat of arms. I'm thinking about its implementation. Then, it is interesting, as in tribal heraldry, for already historical coats of arms - to add information on the haplogroup. Perhaps in the form of medals under the shield, for now I think.

ChrisR
04-01-2022, 08:23 AM
The Sun behind the snowy mountains also represents the winter solstice at the Stonehenge.
Every symbol is multifaceted.
small
https://i.imgur.com/lhx5Yiu.png
While not an expert I have some experience in Central European heraldry so I jumped into this thread and while having no deep insight into the choosing of symbols I think the progression of Optimization is good.
Regarding I beeing the old European Hg is there no Mesolithic or so symbolism, maybe from Cave paintings? I think Germanic and Slavic are much later cultures where R1 may mostly the dominant Hg and do not represent the old Continental origin of I enough?
On the latest proposal:
a) Having a ground under the Stones and bears is better, maybe making the color brown or green is more traditional and even fitting for the Haplogroup.
b) The two symbols on top have the disadvantage to be "complicated" and when the CoA is used in an even smaller version may not be recognizable anymore. I would consider simplifying them further, maybe by taking one triangle shape of both and putting them together (one inside another). Another solution could be to split the shield into fields, for example 4 so you can place one symbol in any of them.
c) I would consider making the bears and stones more "natural", meaning some inside detail like eyes etc. and also by the colors (brown, dark grey), at least not making the bears a negative shape with white color (unless they should be ice bears). There are many styles of Coats and preferences in eras. It is off course also a matter of preferences but I consider the timeframe of the End of the Middle Ages (Last important period of Knights and real field Heraldry) as the most inspiring style time. For example the Scheibler Armorial (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheibler_Armorial). After the concept/content is agreed upon I would invest in a distinctive style creation for the content which is less "Stock Clipart like".
48982

EDIT: I have contact to the following modern heraldist (because he did DNA Tests) who has a very distinct traditional handcrafted style, but obviously he is a professional: https://www.marcofoppoli.com/

Vognejar
04-01-2022, 09:58 AM
While not an expert I have some experience in Central European heraldry so I jumped into this thread and while having no deep insight into the choosing of symbols I think the progression of Optimization is good.
Regarding I beeing the old European Hg is there no Mesolithic or so symbolism, maybe from Cave paintings? I think Germanic and Slavic are much later cultures where R1 may mostly the dominant Hg and do not represent the old Continental origin of I enough?
On the latest proposal:
a) Having a ground under the Stones and bears is better, maybe making the color brown or green is more traditional and even fitting for the Haplogroup.
b) The two symbols on top have the disadvantage to be "complicated" and when the CoA is used in an even smaller version may not be recognizable anymore. I would consider simplifying them further, maybe by taking one triangle shape of both and putting them together (one inside another). Another solution could be to split the shield into fields, for example 4 so you can place one symbol in any of them.
c) I would consider making the bears and stones more "natural", meaning some inside detail like eyes etc. and also by the colors (brown, dark grey), at least not making the bears a negative shape with white color (unless they should be ice bears). There are many styles of Coats and preferences in eras. It is off course also a matter of preferences but I consider the timeframe of the End of the Middle Ages (Last important period of Knights and real field Heraldry) as the most inspiring style time. For example the Scheibler Armorial (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheibler_Armorial). After the concept/content is agreed upon I would invest in a distinctive style creation for the content which is less "Stock Clipart like".
48982

EDIT: I have contact to the following modern heraldist (because he did DNA Tests) who has a very distinct traditional handcrafted style, but obviously he is a professional: https://www.marcofoppoli.com/

I think that some distinctive features for the coats of arms of the haplogroups should also be established here. What is a haplogroup, when viewed from the point of view of heraldry? This is not a people (ethnos), but not a family either, so I am inclined to the option that this is the coat of arms of a large clan. Each branch of this clan is essentially a family that has its own coat of arms, and possibly a clan coat of arms. Even more confusing is the fact that in the history of families there were betrayals and different haplogroups in one family are possible. And here is a real brotherhood by blood, a big clan by blood.

I also think about prospects. The clan coat of arms can serve as the basis for new family coats of arms. In this case, our coats of arms should be minimalistic. With one, two stripes, roughly speaking)

ph2ter
04-01-2022, 10:40 AM
There is Mesolithic symbolism.The cave bear or some totem animals are appropriate.

This is my last proposal:

https://i.imgur.com/7r7wRL3.png

It is simplified compared to the previous ones. I will not change it except if I hear some really good idea.
Everyone can make other proposals and we can vote at the end.

MitchellSince1893
04-02-2022, 06:26 PM
Just throwing spaghetti against the wall to see if anything sticks


https://i.imgur.com/4fZAE87.png

https://i.imgur.com/gqNq3kz.png

ph2ter
04-05-2022, 01:08 PM
I didn't know that valknut is also used as a white supremacist symbol.
Maybe we should choose some other symbol for I1.

JonikW
04-06-2022, 10:06 AM
I didn't know that valknut is also used as a white supremacist symbol.
Maybe we should choose some other symbol for I1.

I think most symbols that we'd be interested in will have been appropriated by racist groups. One way round that might be to use an object from the Nordic Bronze age such as a helmet or a sun chariot. (https://en.natmus.dk/historical-knowledge/denmark/prehistoric-period-until-1050-ad/the-bronze-age/)

EDIT: One of the famous boat motifs (https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Variations-of-the-common-boat-motif-in-Bronze-Age-rock-art-image-by-the-author_fig1_339866133) from the Nordic Bronze Age rock carvings might work too. A boat could also symbolise the spread of I1 if it was used in a coat of arms.

ph2ter
04-07-2022, 06:22 AM
Actually there is only a hint of it in this version (so should be acceptable):

https://i.imgur.com/jaANXTz.png

Creatag
04-07-2022, 09:12 AM
I didn't know that valknut is also used as a white supremacist symbol.
Maybe we should choose some other symbol for I1.

I think most people who aren't white supremacists won't recognise the symbol as such as with the black sun. The valknut is used in a wide variety of non racist aspect such as in videogames (Norway Civilization VI), the German Football Association and as a logo of this company. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCA_(company))